http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6927395.stm
Russian explorers have planted their country's flag on the seabed 4,200m (14,000ft) below the North Pole to further Moscow's claims to the Arctic.

Several countries with territories bordering the Arctic - including Russia, the US, Canada and Denmark - have launched competing claims to the region.

The competition has intensified as melting polar ice caps have opened up the possibility of new shipping routes in the region.

Current laws grant countries an economic zone of 200 nautical miles beyond their land borders.

This zone can be extended where a country can prove that the structure of the continental shelf is similar to the geological structure within its territory.

The North Pole is not currently regarded as part of any single country's territory and is therefore administered by the International Seabed Authority.

Can you still claim territory by planting a flag on it?

I guess it's a step towards legitimacy. This is largely about oil and gas exploration.

Yeah, I really see that 'claim' keeping the other countries involved (Denmark(Greenland), Canada and the U.S. from doing their own drilling/exploration up there.
I don't see any other country placing any recognition for Russia's claim, especially the scarcer that fossil fuels get.

heh, I wouldn't consider Canada's claim serious, just defacto. Truth is the Canadian Government would be happy as a pig in horseshit to be able to keep all it's northern territory and the sea zones between them.

This action is largely due to the US claiming the Helium 3 on the Moon. The Russians wanted to do a joint operation in securing that potenially lucrative fuel sorce. But ofcourse the US rebuffed their offer. So this move makes sense. They can play the claim game too.

This action is largely due to the US claiming the Helium 3 on the Moon. The Russians wanted to do a joint operation in securing that potenially lucrative fuel sorce. But ofcourse the US rebuffed their offer. So this move makes sense. They can play the claim game too.

I agree. It's literally "Flag Waving". Undersea flag waving. As if planting a Flag gives you rights.
It's for Russian TV.

The US refusal to share expenses on Space projects is strange.
Nasa is due for budget cuts, I believe, and any return from Helium 3 might take a hundred years to pay off. Perhaps never.
Co-operation would seem a good idea.

Military interests?

This action is largely due to the US claiming the Helium 3 on the Moon. The Russians wanted to do a joint operation in securing that potenially lucrative fuel sorce. But ofcourse the US rebuffed their offer. So this move makes sense. They can play the claim game too.
That totally surprises me. I don't see any reason why we wouldn't have accepted that offer with open arms. Space exploration thus far has proven to be very expensive. And Russia has almost as much space experience as the U.S. That would have benefitted both of us.

It's bullshit posturing that is going to lead us into another cold war, if we are stupid enough.

This action is largely due to the US claiming the Helium 3 on the Moon.

Of COURSE! This is all somehow the USA's fault... again. Just like the Bubonic Plague, the metior that killed the dinosaurs and 185 Supernova (observed by the Chinese) that destroyed the poor inhabitants of Umgala V.

~String

Of COURSE! This is all somehow the USA's fault... again. Just like the Bubonic Plague, the metior that killed the dinosaurs and 185 Supernova (observed by the Chinese) that destroyed the poor inhabitants of Umgala V.

~String

I have to agree with String on this.
This is about shipping lanes and fossil fuels - money.
If I recall correctly Canada made the first move on this frontier months ago.

But Canada NEVER claimed one square inch outside the UNCLOS defined limits ("200 nautical miles or edge of the continental shelf [not extending beyond 350 nautical miles], whichever is greater"). Both Canada and Russia have ratified the treaty (the USA signed, but still hasn't ratified-- though it still obeys its strictures).

Anybody, EVEN RUSSIA, is allowed to drill for oil anywhere outside those limits-- and they can have the North Pole-- it's not like the US, Denmark, Norway or Canada are scrambling to drill there.

This is all about weakening Russian pride and Putins ersatz attempts at bolsting it.

~String

Can you still claim territory by planting a flag on it?
if this claim can include the waters above the flag then moscows claim is invalid.

in 1958 the nuclear powered submarine Nautilus sailed beneath the polar ice cap. she could have easily dropped ballast onto the seabed below.

edit:
as a matter of fact it was august the 3rd (today)
resource:
http://www.ussnautilus.org/

Hurrah for global warming if it means we can enjoy our lavish lifestyles for another 100 years.

It started with Canada and Denmark in March...
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64777

But Canada NEVER claimed one square inch outside the UNCLOS defined limits ("200 nautical miles or edge of the continental shelf [not extending beyond 350 nautical miles], whichever is greater"). Both Canada and Russia have ratified the treaty (the USA signed, but still hasn't ratified-- though it still obeys its strictures).

Anybody, EVEN RUSSIA, is allowed to drill for oil anywhere outside those limits-- and they can have the North Pole-- it's not like the US, Denmark, Norway or Canada are scrambling to drill there.

This is all about weakening Russian pride and Putins ersatz attempts at bolsting it.

~String

That is all true, but did you know your country wants to travel, has travelled, military nuclear armed vessels through Canadian waters without asking so many times, it is routine? The fact is, your country does not give two shits about about other nations sovereignty, only it's direct military power, while paying lip service to the so-called "free world". Then many americans have the gall to be "alarmed" at the natural response to this not-so-secret american behaviour. Develop and produce direct power - nuclear weapons. That's the only way to get respect in the so-called "free world".

That is all true, but did you know your country wants to travel, has travelled, military nuclear armed vessels through Canadian waters without asking so many times, it is routine? The fact is, your country does not give two shits about about other nations sovereignty, only it's direct military power, while paying lip service to the so-called "free world". Then many americans have the gall to be "alarmed" at the natural response to this not-so-secret american behaviour. Develop and produce direct power - nuclear weapons. That's the only way to get respect in the so-called "free world".

I'm afraid you have to consider the treaties that are between the U.S. and Canada that allow for this, and the fact that they are a part of NATO, and that Canada uses the U.S. military to keep its military budget extremely low.

funny how US and Canada forget that it is not the flag that was chosen to decide to whom the territory belongs, but the soil samples of the continent tectonic plate. If the soil samples will show it is part of Siberian tectonic plate, the land underneath Arctic is 100% Russian. And if anyone disagrees they will have to face Russian military. :p

I'm afraid you have to consider the treaties that are between the U.S. and Canada that allow for this, and the fact that they are a part of NATO, and that Canada uses the U.S. military to keep its military budget extremely low.

What "war" have we asked the U.S to fight for us? Our soldiers are in Afganistan fighting your "war". Actually fighting and dying and doing some real good hard work for the american people(more like economy), unlike some other so-called NATO allies. Canada has not been terrorist attacked. You better think twice who uses who.

There is no treaty which allows the U.S to just cruise around in Canadian territory without telling them. Trust me when I say I KNOW this causes a LOT of consternation with Canadian military personel. It is hard to defend sovereignity against anyone(3 spanish trawlers took alllll the fish awwwayy...), if you have to pussy foot around the the U.S.

With so called "allies" like this who needs enemies.

Doesn't Canada depend on the US for a lot of security?

Russia plants flag under N Pole

we have some options to prevent Russia from stealing the North Pole:
1) NUKE THOSE RUSSKIS
2) steal their vodka
3) bribe them with vodka
4) slip Putin poisoned vodka

there's a way out, my friends!

What "war" have we asked the U.S to fight for us? Our soldiers are in Afganistan fighting your "war". Actually fighting and dying and doing some real good hard work for the american people. Canada has not been terrorist attacked. You better think twice who uses who.

Do Canadian vessels go into US waters?

Doesn't Canada depend on the US for a lot of security?

What to protect us from all the people we are pissing off by being the U.S's so-called "allies"?

Do Canadian vessels go into US waters?

No, not without permission. In fac,t it has hampered search and rescue in the past. Private boats, of course I have not entered this discussion.(the spanish trawler reference has to do with their protection from the spanish government)

we have some options to prevent Russia from stealing the North Pole:
1) NUKE THOSE RUSSKIS
2) steal their vodka
3) bribe them with vodka
4) slip Putin poisoned vodka

there's a way out, my friends!

there is also a way to solve this issue

1) Nuke YOU and your country
2) Nuke YOU and your allies
3) Use russian military against you
4) poison you and citizens of your country

Hurrah for global warming if it means we can enjoy our lavish lifestyles for another 100 years.

As usual, SAM, you chime in with your usual chum that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

That is all true, but did you know your country wants to travel, has travelled, military nuclear armed vessels through Canadian waters without asking so many times, it is routine? The fact is, your country does not give two shits about about other nations sovereignty, only it's direct military power, while paying lip service to the so-called "free world". Then many americans have the gall to be "alarmed" at the natural response to this not-so-secret american behaviour. Develop and produce direct power - nuclear weapons. That's the only way to get respect in the so-called "free world".

What's with all this "your" crap-- as if any Sciforum member was secretly part of some American cabal to undermine Canadian soverignty (which, it just so happens has been secured by the American military that traverses its waters).

Also-- I'd like to see something to back up this claim; which claim, can not have been already addressed by any specific treaty granting US permission to traverse those waters.

funny how US and Canada forget that it is not the flag that was chosen to decide to whom the territory belongs, but the soil samples of the continent tectonic plate. If the soil samples will show it is part of Siberian tectonic plate, the land underneath Arctic is 100% Russian. And if anyone disagrees they will have to face Russian military. :p

(a) You'd be right about the "tectonic plate" business IF (and I'm sure you'll dismiss this fact as you do most other facts) Russia had not already signed & ratified the UNCLOS II treaty in 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCLOS).

(b) I was waiting for you to threaten us with something REALLY frightening like Russian women or the Russian Mafia... but the Russian military... are you joking? Well, if the rust in Russian tanks is contagious, then sure... I'm sure the US is scared.

~String

I'm not the one making up the claim that there is a "treaty" allowing the U.S to invade Canadian sovereign territory, thus *I* do not have to provide the evidence. What you want me to post links to all our treaties that are public domain, tell you I just read every word and say here you read it now.

How about you or buffalo point to me where is does say the U.S can be a prick and make Canadian personel freak out and wonder if the sub is "russian" or "american" passing undersea near Inuvik. If you want to seriously think about the implications of THAT, be my guest. I'm not going into any more detail.

Of COURSE! This is all somehow the USA's fault... again. Just like the Bubonic Plague, the metior that killed the dinosaurs and 185 Supernova (observed by the Chinese) that destroyed the poor inhabitants of Umgala V.

~String

I'm not blaming the US for anything. This is just typical Russian behavior. As soon as we announced we wanted to implement a missle defense shield. Putin rushed to the press, to brag about his missle tech that's capable of penetrating any defense sheild or mechanism. That's the point I was trying to make. Smoke one man, sounds like you need it. :m:

(a) You'd be right about the "tectonic plate" business IF (and I'm sure you'll dismiss this fact as you do most other facts) Russia had not already signed & ratified the UNCLOS II treaty in 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCLOS).
~String

Good link. I see contained in the legislation the following:

"Continental shelf is defined as natural prolongation of the land territory to the continental margin’s outer edge, or 200 nautical miles from the coastal state’s baseline, whichever is greater. State’s continental shelf may exceed 200 nautical miles until the natural prolongation ends, but it may never exceed 350 nautical miles, or 100 nautical miles beyond 2,500 meter isobath, which is a line connecting the depth of 2,500 meters. States have the right to harvest mineral and non-living material in the subsoil of its continental shelf, to the exclusion of others."


That to me means that if the Russians can prove that the Pole is an extension to their continental shelf, the land and any mineral/oil rights are theirs, unless the Pole was explicitly excluded.

That to me means that if the Russians can prove that the Pole is an extension to their continental shelf, the land and any mineral/oil rights are theirs, unless the Pole was explicitly excluded.

Actually, all it states is that in such cases where the shelf extends out further than 200 nautical miles (and in many cases, it does), it can therefore claim UP TO (and not exceeding) 350 nautical miles. That said, however, there is NO instance where the continental shelf of Russia comes even close to the north pole.

See below:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7425/arcticel5.jpg

~String

That to me means that if the Russians can prove that the Pole is an extension to their continental shelf, the land and any mineral/oil rights are theirs, unless the Pole was explicitly excluded.

thats what I am saying N. pole is the extension to Russia.

Actually, all it states is that in such cases where the shelf extends out further than 200 nautical miles (and in many cases, it does), it can therefore claim UP TO (and not exceeding) 350 nautical miles. That said, however, there is NO instance where the continental shelf of Russia comes even close to the north pole.

See below:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7425/arcticel5.jpg

~String

Yes, your reading is correct. I misunderstood it.
I've done a bit of further digging and come up with this
http://explore.georgetown.edu/blogs/?id=25470

The Russians will need to present their claims to a commission set up under the terms of the treaty, who will decide whether their claim is "equitable"

1) Nuke YOU and your country
2) Nuke YOU and your allies
3) Use russian military against you
4) poison you and citizens of your country

1.) Don't you live in the same country? Whee do you live, otheadp? Is it the same country as New Jersey?
2.) Why would you advocate mass murder in exhange for someone's silly joke?

If people say the moon landings are fake, why aren't they saying this is?

I say they filmed it in a big pool with sand at the bottom.

Its so childish. reminds me of when me and my siblings used to argue "well, you touched it last"

thats what I am saying N. pole is the extension to Russia.

But, there you'd be wrong-- both by logistical and legal reasoning. A nation's "soverign" claim is not to the continental plate-- that's totally ridiculous. What the UN has decided (and was done so WITH Russian support and without a Russian veto on the UN Security Counsil) is that Russia's claim only extends so far as the continental shelf, but no further than 350 miles. No matter how much you'd like to twist this whole event, draqon-- there's just no legality to Russia's ridiculous claim.

~String

well than that land will be Russian either way.

well than that land will be Russian either way.

How do you figure? :bugeye:

How do you figure? :bugeye:

underground pipe of these neutral waters...doing some pumping action. :D

well than that land will be Russian either way.

Yeah... kind of like the Russian military would make swift work of the Chechen rebels.

Russia can claim anything it wants-- but that won't make it so. And despite your protestations to the contrary, this whole thing is a weak attempt by Putin to rouse earswhile Russian pride, and is futher proof that Putin is little more than a thug who is pissing on a treaty that the Duma ratified under Yeltsin.

underground pipe of these neutral waters...doing some pumping action. :D

Nothing's stopping Russia from pumping there-- they have as much right to pump on the north pole as any other nation-- it's international waters. Just as important, neither the UK, Canada or the USA will allow Russia to enforce that claim with anything more than its typically impotent sabre rattling.

~String

well than String it's time for Russia to build up its military for some mercenary action.

well than String it's time for Russia to build up its military for some mercenary action.

Well, a build-up of military action requires taxes-- and with an economy as bad as Russia's, it'll be another 20 years before there will be enough tax revenue to spend on improving the military. But, you might be surprised to know that there's no one championing the rise of the Russian economy more than me. A strong Russia will, in the end, have almost the same security needs as the USA, and the sooner Russia is on its feet economically and militarily, the safer the world will be-- in other words, they can start policing their own back yard and the US won't have to.

So, if all this flag-planting makes all the Russians feel warm and fuzzy inside, then I'm all for it. And if they make money off the venture, then I'm all for it too.

~String

Just an observation. Even though russia has signed and ratified the UNCLOS II treaty in 1994, it doesn't mean they can't walk out from it. Although politically it would be very damaging and would cause an infinite amount of diplomatic problems. Nonetheless they can do whatever they wish.

At the end of the day i don't have a huge opinion on the issue. I've always liked russia because they provided me with many a drunken night as a teenager (i can't touch vodka anymore cause of that).