Today’s “New Prohibitionists” cloak themselves in science, arguing that all suicides result from potentially preventable chemical imbalances in the brain. In other words, the suicidal deserve no rights because they’re crazy by definition. When science runs out, critics focus on the agony of those the suicide leaves behind.

Scientific American is not above publishing the odd article with a social or political agenda, but until a February 2003 article on suicide, I don’t recall it throwing an in-house project to a staff editor with a personal axe to grind. Carol Ezzell begins her article “Why? The Neuroscience of Suicide” as follows:

In 1994, two days after returning from a happy family vacation, my 57-year-old mother put the muzzle of a handgun to her left breast and fired, drilling a neat and lethal hole through her heart—and, metaphorically, through our family’s as well.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/flynn_23_2.htm


People need to be able to kill themselves without restraint because they have earned no right to life and therefore upon finding out they really are worthless in the grand scheme, let them give up life. I don't see what all the prioritization of life is about since no one has actually earned any rights and therefore rights cannot be inherent.

As Barbara Ascher said in her essay on compassion, "We want to protect ourselves from an awareness of rags with voices that make no sense and scream forth in inarticulate rage. We do not wish to be reminded of the tentative state of our own well-being and sanity. And so, the trouble-some presence is removed from the awareness of the electorate."

Insanity or not, everyone is entitled to a choice about their own well being as long as it doesn't harm anyone correct? So what do you think about people having the right to kill themselves? Cowards, brave, or insane? I'll clarify as I hear what people think.

**NOTE: I am NOT saying anyone should go kill themselves or that is a commendable thing to do. I am only saying there is nothing wrong with it since no one, not even the person has been given any such 'right' to their life.

eh. i still think suicide sucks because you're destroying your life. other people get sad. And suppose that our "afterlives", if there is such a thing, is akin to that in gilgamesh, or the fate of sisyphus and tantalus and promethyus. wouldn't you have at least liked to have lived a life worth living, if that made any sense? :m:

The problem is that many very nice and good people will be offing themselves and that would be a great waste of human life. The problem is that many real asholes, like some on this board, want those nice people to kill themselves so they can laugh at them for doing so. Many assholes enjoy making good people go crazy just to watch them squirm around get into jams and find no easy way out. Insyead of trying to help the assholes make them want to kil themselves to "rid the place of those that don't nelong" to whatever world that the assholes want to live in.

We don't choose to be born. I'm of the opinion we ought to be free to choose to die if we are so inclined.

If he does not put down the stone and walk away, one must presume Sisyphus happy.

People need to be able to kill themselves without restraint because they have earned no right to life and therefore upon finding out they really are worthless in the grand scheme, let them give up life.

No one's worthless in the grand scheme! Everyone has some impact on the world.

I don't see what all the prioritization of life is about since no one has actually earned any rights and therefore rights cannot be inherent.

What are these rights of which ya speak? I'm kinda confused.

Insanity or not, everyone is entitled to a choice about their own well being as long as it doesn't harm anyone correct?

I suppose so . . . But the question is: Does that include killing oneself?

There's always someone in the world that cares about ya enough to want ya to live. If ya kill yerself, then that person will be hurt emotionally. Have you experienced the pain of the death of someone close to you? Imagine feeling the pain you'd experience if that someone self-inflicts this death.

So what do you think about people having the right to kill themselves? Cowards, brave, or insane? I'll clarify as I hear what people think.

I would think they are ignorant of what role they play in the grand scheme, the same one they "discovered" they were worthless in.

Suicide should be discouraged, but people that try to commit suicide should not be criminalized and looked down upon. Looking down upon them is just wrong.

I agree with you there Athelwulf. :m:

<i>"Insanity or not, everyone is entitled to a choice about their own well being as long as it doesn't harm anyone correct? So what do you think about people having the right to kill themselves? Cowards, brave, or insane? I'll clarify as I hear what people think."</i>

I think you are very brave, in much pain, or insane if you cross that line by choice. I do think it is the right of an individual to take that action if so desired.

No one's worthless in the grand scheme! Everyone has some impact on the world.

What about slaves in the Roman Empire, or antebellum America? What about people who are born with agonizing diseases/deforrmities? Would they not prefer to have it all end?

What are these rights of which ya speak? I'm kinda confused.

Speech, protest, religion.. check the Bill of Rights.

I suppose so . . . But the question is: Does that include killing oneself?

There's always someone in the world that cares about ya enough to want ya to live. If ya kill yerself, then that person will be hurt emotionally. Have you experienced the pain of the death of someone close to you? Imagine feeling the pain you'd experience if that someone self-inflicts this death.

So you are saying suicide is selfish? I thought the whole reason people commited suicide is because they didn't feel wanted or that anyone could help them. In other words, you are saying the person who cares has a right to want to see you live on just so they don't get hurt emotionally - the very thing I am questioning.

I would think they are ignorant of what role they play in the grand scheme, the same one they "discovered" they were worthless in.

Suicide should be discouraged, but people that try to commit suicide should not be criminalized and looked down upon. Looking down upon them is just wrong.

Well yes, if you tried to jump into a river and didn't end up dying, you would find yourself locked up in jail or off to the mental institution. I don't see how that can be considered freedom is all.

i heard that most people commit suicide when they are just coming out of depression because that is when they start having energy to act. This seems to imply that to allow suicide is a waste because these slackers would probably be ok if they would just hold on for a little longer.

i heard that most people commit suicide when they are just coming out of depression because that is when they start having energy to act. This seems to imply that to allow suicide is a waste because these slackers would probably be ok if they would just hold on for a little longer.

A waste of?

A waste of resources. Society spends tens of thousands of dollars educating these individuals and wastes an incredible amount of food just to have them get depressed and kill themselves. That is assuming that you do not believe that every life is precious.

Not a novel defense but:

It's like people who say "don't throw away that food because kids are starving in indonesia right now".

Those resources would have been "wasted" by someone else of the same time period if not later in the future. That food would have rotten in the store if no one bought it or would have ended up clogging the loo of some couch potatoe. I don't see how that is any less of a "waste". The education money if might have been "wasted" on some other individual who for all we know might just as well end up on drugs or paralyzed in a car accident before graduation. Either that or it would have gone into funding for computers that would have to be eventually replaced or something. Is that too not waste?

Also why is every life precious?

Also why is every life precious?

Every life is precious kuz each is a result of a immense variety of conditions working together to make that life unique. Genetics, environment, experiences, people, etc. Unique things are precious. Thus, life is precious.

Also, every life is precious kuz each life has touched, and has been touched by, another life.

Think of yer family. Ya have some fond memories of them, no doubt. Ya've grown up around yer family. Yer family has touched yer life by helping in molding ya into who ya are today. Yer family has been touched by you, as well.

Think of yer friends. Same thing is going on here. They have helped mold ya into who ya are today. As you have them.

I hope that clarifies somewhat for ya.

unless you want to try and argue that there is no point in relationships, and that would be stupid. :m:

if ya want to kill yourself then go ahead, but before ya do, take a week to look around, if you still feel the sname way after seenig waht there is then go ahead.

just remeber, if your gonna die anyway, take some american with ya, that way future generations will see you nto as a loser tha gave up but as a hero that died for te greater good

A waste of resources. Society spends tens of thousands of dollars educating these individuals and wastes an incredible amount of food just to have them get depressed and kill themselves. That is assuming that you do not believe that every life is precious.The thing is, I'm already under no obligation to repay society for its investment in me. I could choose to go live as a hobo and never do any work, pay any taxes, or contribute anything to society, and that would be perfectly legal.

Similarly, it’s ridiculous to suggest that suicide should be illegal because of the pain it causes others. There’s already any number of perfectly legal things that one could do to cause emotional pain for their loved ones.

There’s already any number of perfectly legal things that one could do to cause emotional pain for their loved ones.

Emotional pain greater than that which is a result of a loved one dying?

What things are ya talking about, exactly?

Emotional pain greater than that which is a result of a loved one dying?

What things are ya talking about, exactly?My point is that it isn't the government's job to prevent me from hurting people's feelings, which is why there aren’t any laws to that effect.

And in any case, I would say that my rights to self-determination and control over my own body easily trump any rights that my family might have to being happy.

I say natural right to life implies natural right to sooner death.
Each one of us will die eventually, and some people will inevitably be happy about it and some will be sad and some won't care.
It must be realised that nobody is obligated to anyone; therefore, there are no debts.
Therefore, sooner death is the individual's private matter, his own decision. Whether suicidal tendencies are a sign of weakness or strength, I will leave to those who are suicidal to decide (for all depends on circumstances). Is it madness? In some cases it is, in some it is not.
If you limit one's right to control over his own death, you are taking away his essential freedom.

If you ask me, people can do what they want with their lifes, that is their right. If they want to end it, well, it is their choice...

Anyway, I think people sometimes put too much worth on life.

I agree. Look at the Universes! One person more, a few million humans less, what's the difference (no sarcasm)? What difference does humanity's existence make, when taking the entire picture into view?
Surely, we are important in some ways. But if some die sooner than others want it, it's no big deal.

Suicide's for pussies, and if you want to be a pussy, I won't hold you back.

Do you have the same view on euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide?

Suicide's for pussies, and if you want to be a pussy, I won't hold you back.

:mad: That's a horrible thing to think. But if ya wanna think that . . . :rolleyes: fine . . .

Anyway, I think I have a quote by an unknown person that ties into this suicide thing, and says how I feel about it:

"To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world."

And what do I care for that other person? For myself I am the world and personally I wouldn't care less how it influences others, because if I have a right to live, then I have a right to die too, i.e., do whatever I want with my life.

Yes, ya do have a right to die.

That's why I think that ya should be allowed to kill yerself, but that it be only discouraged, not criminalized or looked-down-upon, kuz ye'r important to someone, somewhere.

One thing about life is its 100% fatal, you are going to die sometime, and no matter how much you mean to someone they will have to deal with it, why shouldnt it be a matter of personal choice when you want to die?

Heh, who would give a fuck about suicide not being legal? I mean, you are pretty much dead after you commited this crime.

well, you must be rather stupid to try to commit suicide, hence that is why maybe they care.

Well, suicide in uh... what's that country, Japan or China, where warriors were to commit suicide in some circumstances? In different cultures it means different things.
As long as it is a reasoned choice, it is not stupid.
And what of those mentally ill who want to kill themselves? Why shouldn't they be able to die sooner if they want to, especially if we cannot cure them?
Why shouldn't a person who will die in agony within months be able to stop his suffering?
Those who go to war must admit they may die sooner than expected, so war is a form of suicide; are all wars stupid?

When it comes right down to it, everyone has the right to do whatever the heck they want. It's simply a matter of choice. Do I choose this? Do I choose that? Do I choose to follow laws? Do I choose to ignore laws? It's simply a matter of choice. Every human has free will, and so it is every human's right to excercise that free will. Actions can definitely be good, and actions can definitely be bad. Does the person acting realize the good? Does the person acting realize the bad? It is only relevant as far as effect goes. As far as each individual is concerned, each will act as he/she sees fit and good and right and best. I personally am opposed to suicide, just as I am opposed to murder, drunkenness, lies, sloth, etc... Does that mean I am going to go and stop a person from doing those things? Of course not. Every human is as human as I am and has every right to excercise his/her will as he/she sees fit. Laws are in place for the sake of protection. Whether we want to take risk is our choice. If there is a law put in place banning suicide, then I will consider it under the light of protection, that the lawmakers see a certain value in human life. If there is a law that allows for suicides, I'll be sad, but what can I do?

There is not needed any law allowing suicides. If you're successful then you are outside of the reaches of law.

Yes, but if one doesn't succeed in a suicide attempt, he should be allowed to try again and again without intervention of puritans.

The anti-suicide feelings, it seems, stem from the grief over the dead and the inability to hold the dead accountable for anything. It's impossible to blame those who are gone for leaving others in grief.

But the dead are dead, and those alive will soon die. Death is not to be grieved over.

My best friend had cancer. It could have been treated, but she was more afraid of the treatment than the disease.

She committed suicide.

I miss her every day. I'm not sad because of the way she died, but just because she isn't here.

The last thing I can do for her is to accept the choice she made and forgive her for killing my best friend.

Ah, just as an addition:

Keeping someone from committing suicide is just as egoistical as doing the deed, hence it can be no real reason against the taking of ones own life.

Suicide is as bad as murder, because a lot of people around this person will miss this person. However, the problem is attachment: if we're not attached to any person, but if we love the self of all things, we won't be sad only because a body (person) dies. Loneliness can't exist without friends, and he who has no friends is an equal friend to everybody. Man doesn't know what happens after death, so he should make the best of his life. The greatest and the only mistake is to say to oneself "I am worthless, I can't do this", because nothing is impossible for the self. No one is greater than us, nothing has power except what we give. We forge the chains and we alone can break them.

I am NOT saying anyone should go kill themselves or that is a commendable thing to do. I am only saying there is nothing wrong with it since no one, not even the person has been given any such 'right' to their life.
If there is no right to life, then surely there is no right to death?

The right to suicide comes from your right to self-determination. When you come right down to it, you own your body and have the final say about what can be done to it – to the extent that your decisions don’t infringe on the rights of other people.

I believe that people must ultimately have the right to end their lives. No one else can make the decision as to whether any particular life is fraught with so much incurable pain that the only way to end the suffering is death.

Yet at the same time I grieve for all the people who love the one who dies. It's bad enough when someone is killed by a tragedy or an illness. But when a person takes their own life, it leaves everyone who loved them wondering whether they could have just put forth a little more effort and gotten the person through the rough spot.

It's the same way I feel about capital punishment. The only people you're really punishing are the people who loved the criminal. His children, his friends, people who had no control or perhaps even no knowledge of his dark side, and just feel a void and a lot of guilt.

So yes, people must have the right to die, but I would like to ensure that they realize what they're doing to the ones who love them and are still willing to make the choice.

I would be in favor of assisted suicide as long as that person is able to give their consent. If the person is not competent enough to make a legal contract then how can they make a life and death decision. This would also remove the problem of wasted medical interventions on the unfit who cannot even commit suicide successfully. It would also cut way down on those who try to gain attention by fake attempts.

well, you must be rather stupid to try to commit suicide, hence that is why maybe they care.

You have no idea of whats going on in the heads of these people.

My opinion is that what one does with his life is his own right and the law shouldn't interfere with such a personal issue.

I suspect that most people who want suicide outlawed are Christians who believe that suicide is morally wrong and want to try to use laws to make everyone who disagrees with them conforms to their beliefs. It’s really hard to make a coherent argument for outlawing suicide without resorting to ‘God doesn’t like it’.

suicide sounds a little selfish... kinda like... "notice me... im killing myself because my life is horrible. and if ive met you, its probably somehow youre fault just like its my mom and dads too."

suicide sounds a little selfish... kinda like... "notice me... im killing myself because my life is horrible. and if ive met you, its probably somehow youre fault just like its my mom and dads too."

Suicide is selfish, but so is every other human action. It is only natural. Also, quoting myself:


Keeping someone from committing suicide is just as egoistical as doing the deed, hence it can be no real reason against the taking of ones own life.

suicide sounds a little selfish... kinda like... "notice me... im killing myself because my life is horrible.
no, it's just getting rid of the problem. for that person life is a problem. the same way as you'd use an umbrella if you saw rain as a problem.

Anyone should have the ability/right to end their life at will......there are those that are glad they are here and think of being born as a blessing and thank their parents for the "gift" they have recieved. Other feel as if they were brough here against their will...their life is a curse not a blessing.......they were brought into a world that they never asked to be a part of and now they are here...they must remain here against there will? As far as people who want to commit suicide being crazy or what not you also have to remember none of it is by choice.....we do not choose who we are or how we act or rather how we want to act.......despite what everyone tells themselves to create the illusion of control and stability.......if your "crazy" its not because you want to be.....if you are a negative person and your chemicly imbalanced or whatever......its not the choosing of that individual......simply put there are people who are unfit for life who just dont want it. They should be able to leave if they so choose.


Life is like a magic trick.......once you figure it out.....it SUCKS!

L8