For people who may be confused about which is which and evolution of the party of Lincoln....this may be a good time to list them here. What traits are on each side and who are in the middle? What are the benefits?

Taken to the extremes - are we dividing along Vorlons and Shadows?

(may want to make this a sticky - if we get good responses)

Vorlons and Shadows

That reference is going to go RIGHT over most heads.

Though you're right.

~String

By trying to stay in the middle you can have a better understanding of both points of view and see the qualities or non qualities that each has to offer.

For the record: Anyone who tries to present a matter of physical fact -

such as the climatological effects of human-boosted CO2 concentrations, the presence of WMDs in Iraq, the origin of the species of living beings, etc,

as a left/right issue

is either conned or conning.

For the record: Anyone who tries to present a matter of physical fact -

such as the climatological effects of human-boosted CO2 concentrations, the presence of WMDs in Iraq, the origin of the species of living beings, etc,

as a left/right issue

is either conned or conning.

Why, because it doesn't mesh with your worldview and/or the one's you respect? Though, I do see the point of your assessment. I do, however, see the relevence to a particular society. In Britain it may not be a "right/left" issue, but here in the USA it certainly is.

~String

In Britain it may not be a "right/left" issue, but here in the USA it certainly is. Not if you want to retain the ability to refer to left and right economic approaches, etc.

Who, after all, regards the physical climate effects of CO2 boosting as actually interpretable differently depending on one's political allegiances ?

And who is defining your reality for you? Take the Darwinian theory of evolution. Do the professional ecologists call it "left" or "right" science ? No. Does anyone who uses the theory, or even just understands it, assign it a position on a left/right scale ? Hardly - that's evidence of scientific incompetence. Who does? People with an agenda who are trying to manipulate other people. The wanna-be Stalins of this world (to him, Darwinian evolution was "Right". To Rove, it's "Left". )

The same people who are trying to frame Obama as "Left", for example - with the excuse that it's all relative, and the underlying assumption that it's relative to what they say it's relative to. It's not relative to Nixon, say, or Johnson. It's not relative to the average voter, or any criteria from agreed Leftist political thought, or in fact any agreed a priori criteria at all. It's relative to whatever the labeler needs it to be, to facilitate slapping a pejorative on Barack.

If you allow the manipulators to define your terms and frame your real, physical world in words stripped of fixed meaning, you will be left with little meaningful language to use in honest discussion. Orwell warned, Confucius warned, the pioneers of American marketing warned - heed or be left unable to talk. We need a word for what "left" refers to in meaningful discourse. If we lose "left", what's going to replace it ?

The left and right definitions have never changed right? Left is liberal and right conservative correct? regardless of the party affiliations.

That reference is going to go RIGHT over most heads.

Though you're right.

~String

It surely did. I thought we would discuss philosophical issues and which is most beneficial for a given issue. We keep switching right and left going in a serpentine route rather straight from the middle...and wasting energy, resources, money, people etc....

The Shadow's philosophy of strength through conflict seems like Iraq war...

Interesting is that USA is divided 50/50....in left and right...

We keep switching right and left going in a serpentine route The US has not moved to the political left or the political libertarian since the late 1970s.

There have been occasional pauses or delays in the progress toward the political authoritarian right, but no rollback.