Sunchild,
Well, I have seen strange things in the sky but that doesn't mean I think it's an alien ship come across the galaxy to stick probes inside human beings. In fact, that's a rather large and arrogant assumption, but not surprising, for humans over the millenia have longed to believe in otherworldly beings to help explain the mysteries in their lives.

There's nothing wrong with this, but if we really want to be serious and objective and rational beings, then we need to examine the evidence of UFO contact, and frankly, there is none. No evidence of alien bodies, or crashed ships, or tools, or any other strange, exotic matter not of this world.

What we do have is a long cultural, historical, and psychological undercurrent of fear, mistrust and superstition of things WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND. My own feeling is that most so-called "abductions" are nothing more than memory/sleep manifestations brought on by stress, mental illness or other psychological trauma.

Does that make it wrong to believe that aliens are trying to contact us? Of course not. But we should try to keep in mind the distinctions between science and fanstasy, and address these issues accordingly.

[This message has been edited by einsteinsdream (edited November 25, 2000).]

Just becouse you've never met one doesn't mean they dont' exist. I think it is becouse of sceptics like yourself that we are still arguing weather they are here or not, instead of concentrating of why they are here and what they want.

Dolphin,

Skepticism is the foundation of science. Without proof, without evidence, without peer review in respected scientific journals, then anyone with the most outlandish claims could publish and disseminate falsehoods and lies--not that it doesn't happen--it does, all the time.

But a healthy dose of doubt keeps us out of the Dark Ages, where superstition and pseudoscience rules. Is that what we really want in the 21st century?

I've never met a Devil with red horns and a tail, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't exist. Now I have seen a strange boomerang-shaped ship in the sky, with witnesses, and no one could explain it. Do I think it was aliens? No? A secret military spy plane? Maybe. The point is, I don't know, and I think it's irrational to subscribe the notion that alien belings just happen to be floating in the sky easily in sight of dozens of people. Or that the technology it takes to traverse the galaxy would be put to examining humans with primitive tools. Why? No one has been able to explain this to my satisfaction, and until there is absolute evidence of alien ships and abductions, I will remain a skeptic.

In the meantime, I welcome proof that can be presented in the light of objectivity and reviewed without prejudice. Believe me, I think the universe is brimming with life, I just don't think we've found it yet--or they us.

Einsteindream,
Now, please, just for a minute, try to see it from my point of view. It has already been proven to me that they exist. I know for sure, but it is not something I can prove to you. Now I have two options - I can spend all my time trying to convince people like yourself, that they indeed do exist, which would be very hard, or I can spend my energy on trying to find out what the hell they actualy want here. That's why most people don't speak about it, it's just no worth the trouble
Dolphin

einsteinsdream, If you feel you have the right to tell me and the rest of the "believers" that we suffer from a mental illness.

I say to you, and your fellow debunkers, you are all idiots.

You say we should be objective. Why don't you post on a subject you know something about ???

SMILE IN THE FACE OF ADVERSITY.

You know what, with a closed mind an alien could slap you in the face and say, "take me to your leader" and you would probably say it was all in your head. You may wake up one day but hope its not too late by then. Anyone been keeping up with Nibiru approach? Ufo's are old news if you watch the ancient writings even in the bible as well, all the photos though some are faked yes but not all. Watch the video footage, even nasa has evidence, the vatican even, but little skeptics and debunkers who dispute all of this are a waste of breath. Dolphin and others, keep your heads up and know there are those of us who do know what you speak of, no its not mental illness its real, those who have been through it know go to Caus and you will see all the others that have 'mental illness' and the hundreds of others of us who suffer in silence for fear of ridicule such as by those others on this board and everywhere. The govt has known as has the govts of many others for years but will always sell-out its own people on this planet. I have given up posting on this board but do monitor it. Am tired of reading the ridicule by those who think they know it all. By all means noone will ever know all and even if they had undisputed proof would debunk or disprove it in their own little human minds. Don't get down.....you know what you know.

------------------
Eric Cooper

Originally posted by faerieshaman:
close minded twits must run in your family ch

I suggest you go look up what closed minded means.

Same topic - same bullshit two sides to the argument - ...This is the same crap that was going on here at the start of this year and the year before that...could it be any more brain-numbingly mundane on this board.
Too bad you newcomers have missed the type of intellectual input this board used to receive until topics with this response thread started to appear with dis-concerting frequency.
Nothing has changed here - the smart ones have moved on to more productive places ( I keep in contact with a few of them ) and the ones that remain still spew forth the same regurgitated garbage they did from 250 posts ago!
If it weren't for Dave Watanbe's other forums this board would have died a long time ago. By the amount of posters and frequency of new 'constructive' posts, it can be seen that this forum area is dying a slow and painfull death.
The only decent post here on aliens of late was a close encounter by my own family member and it didnt even stir the dust here! A daylight sighting by two credible witnesses in broad daylight - right above their heads!!.... but in this thread you guys are slinging shit around like it's a pie fight!
This topic forum is about "aliens and extraterrestrials" - for those of us who want to discuss about "aliens and extraterrestrials" - not to get sidetracked consistantly by those who have nothing better to do but slander the posts on the subject.
I said it earlier this year and the year before that - 'What the hell are you guys doing here stirring up tempers if you dont believe in it?' - 'Why aren't you interacting with people who share your interests?' 'What possible reason could one have for hanging around a forum topic that you have no interest in ( other than to ridicule ), - dont share the views of others and have never had an experience such as some here have?'
I simply cannot fathom your motive!
Don't mis-interpret this comment as not wanting objective comment, if you did you have read wrong. Objective comment to the likes of ' Perhaps it was...., mayhap it was really a ...you saw' etc.
Not this blind child-like retort 'You're an idiot if you believe in spacemen, so there! '
Let's once again return to the friendly thread responses we used to enjoy.

Dave
http://www.nitrodigital.com/exo/dave.gif



[This message has been edited by Dave (edited December 04, 2000).]

Einsteindream / Corporal Hudson & you other debunkers.

I would happily debate the issue with you if I thought it would do any good. However, it is clear to me that you know nothing about the subject so what's the point.

I'm sick to death of the smug self satisfied people on this forum who debunk everythihng without any understanding at all.

If you want to go on living your lives with blinkers on and not seeing or learning anything then that's fine. If your too dumb to see that there is something to this subject, a subject that is undisputedly the greatest mystery of the 20th Century, then I for one don't care.

I'm sick to death of people spouting the same crap about there not being any evidence for UFOs or about mental illness, sleep paralysis, weather balloons, Venus, swamp gas, untrained observers or any other stupid exuses that you people consistantly put forward to disprove UFO incidents.

As far as I'm concerned, you're all blind and I will not allow you to waste my time with your stupid reasoning.

Spadge:
----
I would happily debate the issue with you if I thought it would do any good. However, it is clear to me that you know nothing about the subject so what's the point.
----

Well, Spadge, I would like to learn more about this evidence. I don’t consider, for an example, qualifying an Unidentified Flying Object as unexplainable to be evidence of aliens. If a phenomena is unexplainable, by definition, it is not an alien. I would be most intersted in seeing this plethora of evidence I hear so much about.

Spadge:
----
I'm sick to death of the smug self satisfied people on this forum who debunk everythihng without any understanding at all.

If you want to go on living your lives with blinkers on and not seeing or learning anything then that's fine. If your too dumb to see that there is something to this subject, a subject that is undisputedly the greatest mystery of the 20thCentury, then I for one don't care.
----

I’m afraid that you’ll have to take my word on it that I’m not too stupid to understand what many people have no problem believing. If I do not understand, perhaps it is because I am ill informed. If you would be so kind direct me to some information that I have not yet seen (or details which cast new light on information which I already have), perhaps I’ll come around to your way of thinking. Since it’s so blindingly apparent to you, I figure that I must be missing something.

Spadge:
----
I'm sick to death of people spouting the same crap about there not being any evidence for UFOs or about mental illness, sleep paralysis, weather balloons, Venus, swamp gas, untrained observers or any other stupid exuses that you people consistantly put forward to disprove UFO incidents.

As far as I'm concerned, you're all blind and I will not allow you to waste my time with your stupid reasoning.
----

I have heard many people bash skeptical reasoning but have yet to hear a coherent criticism of the logical processes employed by the empirical method. If you can dismiss, out of hand, all forms of human error(mental illness, dreams, imagination etc.), it’s difficult to see how you can disbelieve anything at all. Again, I would like to see some resources which lay out the evidence without saturating it with rhetoric.

Regards,
Synaesthesia
"No government ought to exist for the purpose of checking the prosperity of its people or to allow such a principle in its policy."
- Edmund Burke

i agree with dave, this board has gone too hell. i rarley evan post, if topics were as good as they re, perhaps a year agop, i would still be a active poster. though i have nt encountered any of the unusual lately, that doesnt mean all of you havent either. jsut open your eyes and look around, tell what you see, and yes, i know that i will get some rude comments like "i see.. umm, a computer... and tehmn a nother computer, and look.. ewwweehhhh a pretty flower" and i would like it if someone started another topic that would reach the high numebrs in posts again, acuse i love the excitement of spening my lunch period in the library looking blankly into a compuputer.. learneng every second...


------------------
when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages!
THANK GOD FOR ATHEISM!

voice mail: 1-800-222-6000
pin#- 2442235

There is no question these craft are real
and there IS a lot of evidence from the governments own files and their panel of scientist (conventional) who even said these craft are real and not from another country. I've seen a couple myself up close and personal. A family member was abducted and did not believe in them before the incident. People in high places are speaking of what they know but unfortunately no one is listening. Most I think are to scared to believe.
Dave, I was fascinated by your post I found it very interesting. Why would normal people by the thousands be making this up over many years? People who never spoke of it before or believed it? There's two things scientists will agree on the government is hiding a lot it's been proven in court and the technology is far beyond ours. I like to discuss the possibilities but find it hard on this forum Dave brought up some very good points and is why I don't post much any more.
" You cannot teach a man anything; You can only help him find it within himself " Galileo

Alien: The same arguments can be made about (insert religion of your choice). There are vast numbers of people who have seen (insert miracle here) and many scientists testify to the validity of this event. There are thousands of documents proclaiming the existence of (insert item(s) here), and many have been hidden in the past by (insert opposing religion). Also, why would normal people, not by the thousands, but by the billions be making this up? Why would people convert to (insert religion of your choice) by the millions? Call me crazy, but neither argument convinces me.

Where can I find these vast archives of documents? I dont mean to sound sarcastic, by inquiry is genuine. And in what court cases has it been proven that the government is hiding evidence of the existence of aliens?

Corporal Hudson,

You're talking a complete load of rubbish.

You know nothing whatsoever about this subject so why do you even bother posting about it?

Corp.Hudson,
The UFO Phenomenon is a little different than ghosts or religions. Religion gives people hope and something to look forward to when they pass on. I believe in ghosts, there is much evidence of their existance and I also believe in craft not from here. Why you ask? I can literally spend days showing you but here is briefly why I believe.
1) Declassified top secret documents about PHYSICAL OBJECTS doing impossible manuevers.
2) Many occassions military pilots pursued these objects and viewed them up close, guess what, it wasn't swamp gas!!
3) Former retired military personel tell
what they know sometimes only on their death beds.These are highly distinguished people as was Jessie Marcel.
4) Too many cases where there's interaction with the environment and studied scientifically.
5) Too many debunkers who turn out not knowing anything about the phenomenon. Take them out of the equation and there's not to many who disbelieve.
6) I saw a few objects up close do things
I thought were impossible.No it wasn't a dream or hallucination.Yes I have been evaluated by a doctor and fall within the normal range.
7) Material studied by a top material scientist who goes on record saying no country has the technology to produce the material.Where did it come from you ask?
The crazy people who believe in alien craft and took samples from crash sites such as Roswell. Also objects taken out of people which have demonstrated extraordinary properties.

P.S. Show me a document where Jesus was pursued by military aircraft and I'll give you're recent reply more thought.
Sincerely,
Alien


[This message has been edited by Alien (edited December 11, 2000).]

Hey einstiensdream!
I can give you one good reason why aliens, with there technology to fly through the galaxy, would spend there time here.You said Why would they spend time here looking at us humans with primitve tools?! Well NASA is in search of life all the time and if we found it, I don't care if it was a Bug with a pick axe, or a bacteria that didnt do anything but sit around and play dead,WE WOULD BE STUDING THEM LIKE NO OTHER. It would prove that life could exist, intelligantly, some where else in the universe!

Leaving aside the grammatically challenged and rather simple-minded retorts of the alien wanabees, I had hoped to find some stimulating and thought-provoking posts on the UFO question. Sadly, this has not been the case.

The level of discussion, aside from a few informed souls, has been adolescent at best, more suited to a 7th grade X-Files sleep-over at Stan's house during a blackout.

If anyone thinks that the evidence of alien visitation could possible be kept secret in this parasitic-media-information-crazy-government-leaking-post-Watergate--investigative-journalism-blathering-24 hour news cycle society, then you are indeed a sad specimen.

And if there was evidence, and the person or persons wanted to convince the world that it was indeed real, the best way to do this would be to publish the information in PEER-REVIEWED JOURNALS, period.

Oh, I forgot, there's a vast conspiracy and all the pictures and bodies and crashed Roswell ships are being kept secret. In fact, I'm hiding a Klingon war ship in my backyard. It's covered with tarp so no one will see it. Don't tell anyone, okay.

"1) Declassified top secret documents about PHYSICAL OBJECTS doing impossible manuevers."

I would be interested in seeing these papers. If a physical object is observed to perform actions which were previously thought to be impossible, one of two things occurs:

a)What we define as impossible is changed.
b)The observation is concluded to be flawed.

Which has happened?

“2) Many occassions military pilots pursued these objects and viewed them up close, guess what, it wasn't swamp gas!!”

What did it appear to be?

“3) Former retired military personel tell what they know sometimes only on their death beds. These are highly distinguished people as was Jessie Marcel.”

What do they know? Have they any substantiating evidence?

“4) Too many cases where there's interaction with the environment and studied scientifically.”

Oh, you mean crop circles?

“5) Too many debunkers who turn out not knowing anything about the phenomenon. Take them out of the equation and there's not to many who disbelieve.”

Ok, credulous people tend to believe in popular myths. What does that prove other then the value you place on opinions which coincide with your own?

You’re right by the way. I don’t know anything about aliens from outer space. No one seems to want to give me this irrefutable evidence that I hear SO much about. Please don’t just call me something horrible like a “debunker” and refuse. You’ll make me think you’re trying to hide something.

“6) I saw a few objects up close do things I thought were impossible.No it wasn't a dream or hallucination.Yes I have been evaluated by a doctor and fall within the normal range.”

News: A “normal” person can hallucinate.
News: A “normal” person can misinterpret.
News: Anyone can be wrong. Yes, that includes “normal” people.

“7) Material studied by a top material scientist who goes on record saying no country has the technology to produce the material.Where did it come from you ask?
The crazy people who believe in alien craft and took samples from crash sites such as Roswell. Also objects taken out of people which have demonstrated extraordinary properties.

P.S. Show me a document where Jesus was pursued by military aircraft and I'll give you're recent reply more thought.”

Oh, I’m so glad you asked that person for references. I was afraid you too would be hesitant to provide me with the evidence for these claims. Well, direct me to the references. Since you are a “normal” person just like me I’m sure I’ll be convinced by this overwhelming body of evidence.

In eagerness to learn the truth and discard preconceptions,
Synaesthesia

is anybody at all trying to organize any resistance to grays from andromeda?

did you see www.eart-today.com (http://www.eart-today.com) ?

why there is no any "contact me" possibility on this web-site? whoever is maintaining this web-site appears to be very world-weary and worried about what grays are doing, but he doesn't seem to be willing to do anything against them, other then reviel the facts. why? do anyone else do anything more then uncovering the truth? that's surely not enough to save us from enslavement. if all pigs suddenly become aware of the fact that people are using them for food this will not automatically save them from being eaten. reply to waterguns@freeze.com
please,

ooooops! i misspeled the web-site in my message from 5 minutes ago (see above).

it should be: www.earth-today.com (http://www.earth-today.com)

kind regards,

waterguns@freeze.com

synaesthesia,
If I saw your Mother get shot by some low-life in broad daylight, my testimony in court would put the accused away for life. That is how much my testimony would weigh. If I AND my friend BOTH witnessed the murder, you would have an incredibly strong case against the accused that would be hard to contest. Verdict - Guilty.

BUT, if the two of us BOTH saw a little silver ship doing somersualts in the sky the next day and reported it - we would be labeled as loonies!......

This is exactly what you are doing. People of ordinary backgrounds here have been witness to strange phenomena and you are STILL busy de-bunking.... saying normal people CAN hallucinate, mis-interpret etc.

So, in closing I hope for your sake and your mothers that a believer in ET's doesn't pay witness to a crime against your family, because I know you wouldn't want that nut-job's word for it that "he knows what he saw and he knows who he saw commit the crime".

Dave
<img src="http://www.nitrodigital.com/exo/dave.gif

Synaesthesia,
You don't think the U.S. Government
documents interaction between disked shaped craft? There is all kinds of cases on record which have been declassified.
So, many pilots, who happen to be one of the most credible people to observe these vehicles, are all hallucinating? Yes, normal people can hallucinate. Did I. No.
It's easier for you to think that way so
you do not have to try to understand something that may shatter your beliefs.
The first step and I now this is hard is to do a little research you will be amazed at the good evidence out there.I
can't possibly post everything I've seen on this board.

einsteinsdream,
You really think the government cannot keep a secret? Thats a joke right?

Dave,
I'm glad you brought that up. Many People who witness the same craft and beings are from all walks of life. Some are very educated. Let me give an example many witnesses see an object from different points. They testify under oath in a court of law about what they saw.
Radar also confirms their testimony. The Airforce says nothing happened case closed.This happens all the time. Witnesses have even seen jets chasing strange objects. New polls show over half of americans believe in alien craft and that the government is hidding knowledge.
These same people are on juries putting people away for murder etc. Think about it. The very definition of science is to study, explore our surroundings and learn. Unfortunatey when it comes to UFO's something else happens.

Alien

Alien,

Sure, the government has kept secrets before--the Manhattan Project, the Stealth Bomber, but consider the level of media scruity involved in the Manhattan Project verses the Stealth Bomber. In today's environment, the development of a secret bomb--or anything else for that matter--would come under an umbrella of attention unheard of forty years ago. Sure, secrets are kept, but it's harder to maintain the veil.

The discovey of alien evidence would be the story of all-time, and no "conspiracy," regardless of the forces behind it, could in my opinion keep this info from leaking out.

Your faith in government control is fixated on the erroneous assumption that all the vested interests involved could be trusted to keep silent. You're joking, right?

No I'm not. The fact is there have been leaks but how do you distinguish them from disinformation? The secret has not been kept. To most people it's unbelievable so it's fake right? Then why does the government have a classification for this subject?

Secrets are still kept by all branches of the military to this day about a variety of issues.

[This message has been edited by Alien (edited December 13, 2000).]

Alien: First off, I never said Jesus, so that is your addition.

Secondly, I can show you about a hundred documents in which Jesus was pursued by Roman soldiers and Jewish political leaders, who then saw him perform a miracle and believed in his message.

And if you dont want to accept that, I can give you other examples. Muhammad would go into deep trances when he recieved his revelations, and an aura was said to come over him. This was recorded in numerous documents.

The Bab performed many, many miracles, which were recored by people who didnt even believe in him, members of the Persian government who were actively pursuing him. The same goes for Bahaullah, who performed many more miracles. This information is all probably available in your local library. At least my faith (yes, unlike the alien believers out there, I admit it is faith, not fact) is based on historical phenomenon that was recorded by disbelievers.

Spadge: Why do you come here if you dont want to debate?

Yes, I did add that to prove a point.
What you speak of is seen by a relative few in history. Documented and pased on as stories throughout the years. I'm not saying it may or may not have happened.
The UFO phenomenon is bigger much bigger.
To understand the evidence you must be willing to look at it right. Now, to me when a pilot is flying along and sees a silver shiny disk along side of him and his power fails or the jet flys under the conrol of that disk then thats proof enough for me. This has happened many times. Or when at a nuclear installation
(Great Falls, Montana) officials track objects doing unconventional manuevers
and for quite some time nuclear warheads
were being armed and disarmed by these objects, the base was in their control.
This is well documented and declassified!! All the personel on that base experienced it in the mid 70's.
And if you don't believe this case what about literally hundreds of others in recent years? Objects seen on the ground
by not one but several people you could trust to be sane rational individuals.
The National Institute for Discovery Sciences has analyzed material taken from people that could not be explained as far as its properties and how it was constructed.Don't take my word for it it's in science journals. A lot of people are just going to believe what they want despite of the evidence. All so most can sleep well at night.

P.S. A noted researcher has said concerning debunkers "Why attack the evidence when you can attack the people it's much easier." Over the years I've seen how true this is. This is why the debunkers do not even try attacking the people is easier and they don't have to deal with the evidence.
[This message has been edited by Alien (edited December 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Alien (edited December 14, 2000).]

Okay... Just assuming that aliens really do exist, just leaving out the possibilty that they do not,

What do they supposedly want? Maybe I have not been re-reading people's posts enough, but I get a hint of people saying that we know these aliens' plans for involvement in the human race.
Just curious, what are their plans? I suspect that there is at least as much controversy over their purpose as their existence.
Would someone enlighten me on this? Maybe I already know some theories, but what exactly is the story with these "grays"?

[This message has been edited by DataBob (edited December 14, 2000).]

Databob,
I believe there are many races of aliens coming to earth from who knows where. They obviously want their identity kept secret or this mystery would have been solved. If you look at the research of Dr. Tim Jacobs, Dr. John Mack,and Dr. Bud Hopkins, among others, there is a distinct pattern in all the hundreds of cases they have studied. These aliens take samples, both fluid and tissue, and sometimes terrify abductees with images of a dying earth. Abductees often are shown hybrids and the aliens seem to be interested in watching us love and care for them. It seems as if other races just talk with us interact and then leave maybe giving he or she a message.
A family member along with a friend was abducted last year. They saw four different races during their abduction. They both have physical scares from the experience. They watched the craft land and aliens approach them from across a field. Now they both would have thought this was science fiction for neither were a believer. They do not remember four hours of the experience the last thing they do is the aliens approaching their craft and leaving. Within the last two years others have had the same encounter in the area.It seems as if the aliens took samples from both of them. Strange triangular marks were left along with needle marks in a triangular pattern.
Other than this, there seems to be no clear motive. They have problems dealing with the encounter such as nightmares from the event. I want to stress they were both awake when this happened. Maybe they want to watch us to see if we advance into space or destroy orselves.
Alien

The best theory I have heard is that they forsee a war or cataclysm of some kind in which life on earth becomes extinct... They take samples and things in hope of preserving our genetic diversity or perhaps cloning several earth-bound species if their fears are ever realized.
Or, they are in fact a future evolution of mankind, and they come back in time because they need to prevent us from destroying ourselves, because if we do so we will destroy them as well.

A few good theories out there, but it's still hard to make a universally satisfying idea.

-DataBob