A porcine expectation among gluttons.

I will elaborate on my ideas concerning not just murder but the ghostly omnipotence of its influence over a killer’s life as I feel meaning was lost in translation in the first thread.
Some thought the thread a case of rebellious advocacy for aggression.
Others thought it an ignorant citation of scripture when I happened to call modern men Nephalim.

Cast your eyes on your history, reader, and see everywhere a man spilling his blood to the indifference of his neighbor- terror rained down from the Steppes and a Teuton would wake in the morning to find a quarter of his village bludgeoned before being pushed across the Danube by Huns. Bubonic plague brought catastrophe but it further illustrated this apathy to death that was there at the founding of Babylon and Persia and Sparta and Rome and countless other city states and empires built on blood. Given a corpse on the street, a man would pick its pockets for bread and having found none move on to the next one since his neighbor’s home was kept guarded against him, keeping him from its cupboards and its women. Man shuns his genetic sexual aggressions as an opportunity cost he pays to live in his hive- who was it that said it much better than I?

“Aggressiveness was not created by property, “ writes Freud about us, the discontented, “ It reigned almost without limit in primitive times, when property was still very scanty, and it already shows itself in the nursery…..”

Now cast your eye to the softened world out your window, where on every street corner a smiling face will greet a pedestrian with halfhearted gestures and inquiries without as much caring for a response. There he is as indifferent as always, a spiteful, calculating lycanthrope in a Polo shirt forced into civility for man now fears Mankind in the name of Respect- an idea has crawled out from the battlefields and set up a network broadcasting a message of remorse, a message of guilt, a message of love and humanity held against us like a noose.
A man will now think twice about mishandling a prostitute- this nameless vagabond only recognizable as a woman by its hair and organs forgotten by her country and her family and left to feed off the street’s garbage- this man knows she can destroy him in life if he were to take hers.

Strangle her and he strangles himself when the law rises to make her a god because she is an individual! A human life! not just some animal one can kill without thinking! “You’re a monster. The bench sentences you to death, and may the Lord have mercy on your soul”...is uttered to our killer during trial by the magistrate- redemption for a prostitute who’s name it can’t even spell correctly.
This useless, bloodsucking tumor who’s thrown her life away is knighted in death by virtue of her life being taken in such indecent lack of regard.
We have become angel-men able to drive Dahmer insane for his instincts; a killer walks around with his sanity ransomed by the guilt this softened world imposes upon him now that its made human life invaluable- all human life invaluable.
Its a mutilation of the worst order to find vermin can now wield an omnipotence in vengeance that was once only possible among gods and dealt by them creatively.
Again, respect is a luxury based on modern presumptions- the Negro was once a mule kept in the stable but now he is feared. So is the maid.
This is what I mean by the omnipotence of murder, homicide is suicide now that Nephalim walk the earth again.

Vital in this, to those that can hear, is to remember always that loyalty to self is at a premium- it is not in our nature, man's nature, to recognize others at the expense of self and should that nature ever change never will it come at the hands of authority.
You owe allegiance to none one, save those of one's choosing.
You owe nothing- this is debtor mentality fit for prostitutes.

I have been thinking about this, Gendanken.

It seems that apart from conscience (which we all have to some degree or another, even though I fear you're going to deny this) the main reason keeping us from going on killing sprees and mutilating those who oppose us (who by the way are generally removed from conscience if we demonize them sufficiently) is consequence. You've said as much with your innuendo of the prostitute rising from her grave to kill her killer.

Now, there are those who kill regardless. Why? Well, there are more than one type of killer in the world, of course. More types than I could possibly begin to relate in this thread. Probably as many types as there are killers. But, I think I can break down several of them.

First, we have the emotional killer. The temporary insanity defense. Emotions got the better of him/her and murder most foul was the result. We can conclude that during the act, consequences were the farthest thing from this killer's mind. And, likely conscience had little part to play because rage tends to demonize.

Second, we have the organized killer. One who kills for fun and profit. Sometimes legally, as in the soldier and policeman, sometimes illegally, as in the contract killer. The first type doesn't have to fear legal consequences. Although he does have to reckon with moralistic consequences. Many vets came home from Vietnam without ever leaving the memories of those burned children behind. And, they also have to fear reprisal. They can be killed in their job by those they are trying to kill, but this likely adds to the joy of it. Don't you think?

The contract killer would have to fear consequences. He would have to be good enough to avoid consequences. Moral issues likely don't plague him or he wouldn't have gone into the line of work. Physical dangers would be a consequence but not as much as the soldier. For contract killers are more like snipers. They don't often get close and visceral.

Next, we have the thrill killer. Generally youths that just don't give a shit. They have no consideration of consequences because it just doesn't matter. Morals are generally far from their mind as well. Although they might change their mind once the deed is done. They might just find that they do care after all. It's happened before. Physical consequences? They usually pick defenseless targets. They are cowards usually and don't want a struggle. They seek out easy targets. Easy kills. Crushing a kittens head with your boot type of thing.

Next, we have the sexually deviated serial killer. Most of the big name killers have been this type. Several subtypes involved of course. Which particular sexual deviation do these poor souls suffer from. How do they cover it up? How do they transfer sex to violence? These people are generally leery of their violent fantasies. Holding them at bay for years. Until finally, they can do so no more. They make their first kill. Then, often they'll stop. Guilt will run rampant. Perhaps even religion plays a part in their deviation. But, the fantasies spiral out of control. These people begin to kill. More and more. Becoming pawns to their fantasies. Tools of their deviations. Many times, not only do they end up not fearing consequences, they desire consequences. They leave clues behind. They want to be caught. They want to be burned for their actions. Moral punishment? Some yes. Some no. Physical danger? Some yes. Some no.


Hmm. Well, this is getting a bit long. I'm gonna stop here. There's four types of killer. Each with their own particular blend of motivations. Their own particular reasons for killing. Their own particular reasons for not killing.

Consequence plays a part in all of them. The most common type of murder today is the thrill killing. The respect killing of the youth culture. The just don't give a fuck feeling that permeates us. I think that this might very well arise as a backlash against this heavy handed morality that is laid upon us. This ultimate sanctity of human life that is pushed upon us. Not necessarily the sanctity itself, but the hypocrisy of it.

It's perfectly legitimate to say that no one should ever be murdered, that no one should be allowed to commit suicide, that every murderer must be punished, that human life is so fucking valuable, yadda yadda. Yet, at the same time it very clear that these same people who say this have no respect for human life. It's control they're after. Control of life and death. If they really respected life, then that illiterate little girl wouldn't have to sell her ass on the street for crack. Her baby wouldn't have to die in a dumpster. People wouldn't have to sell their fucking souls for health care. We wouldn't be in a foreign country killing them while claiming that our lives are so fucking precious that they deserve whatever they get.

It's hypocrisy that's the issue.

And it's transparent hypocrisy. Even the braindead children of our age can see it. They can sense it in their bones. I wonder, is the transparency intentional? :eek:



Edit: Hmm. Just had a thought. It's not that we reason out the hypocrisy. It is seen in the eyes of most of our 'respected' elders. It is seen from our parents who say that it's so terrible that some guy is out killing prostitutes. But then will look at a living prostitute as a diseased scumbag worthy of nothing less than death. It is all around us and is picked up by emotional and societal cues. Hypocrisy. A variance between logic and emotion perhaps? Between left and right brains? Or is this left/right device even needed? Doublethink in action. Catch the killer. Fuck the whore.

Cast your eyes on your history, reader, and see everywhere a man spilling his blood to the indifference of his neighbor- /.../

Science, medicine. Being able to prevent death, heal wounds. One can nowadays always count that there *should* be a doctor who can help. -- All this brought death far far away from us, and made it a stranger, something we shun and fear.


Man shuns his genetic sexual aggressions as an opportunity cost he pays to live in his hive-

... and (how does that proverb go?) familiarity breeds contempt.


Now cast your eye to the softened world out your window, where on every street corner a smiling face will greet a pedestrian with halfhearted gestures and inquiries without as much caring for a response. There he is as indifferent as always, a spiteful, calculating lycanthrope in a Polo shirt forced into civility for man now fears Mankind in the name of Respect- an idea has crawled out from the battlefields and set up a network broadcasting a message of remorse, a message of guilt, a message of love and humanity held against us like a noose.

There are too many people living in the same territory. The population density is much bigger than several thousand years ago. -- Yet the feeling for a fellow tribesman remained, we feel we ought to feel some closeness to our neighbour. And in the times of old tribes, this was the preferred way to treat a neighbour. Back then, it made sense.

But nowadays, the feeling diluted, as we are supposed to have it for thousands of people! Something, that was meant for but a hundred, if not less. The human ability to love, as well as to hate, is limited by the 24 hours that are in a day, and other natural limitations of the human mind and body.

Modern life teaches us that we aren't supposed to acknowledge these natural limitations. And that they are bad.


Its a mutilation of the worst order to find vermin can now wield an omnipotence in vengeance that was once only possible among gods and dealt by them creatively.

This is where human progress lead to.


Vital in this, to those that can hear, is to remember always that loyalty to self is at a premium- it is not in our nature, man's nature, to recognize others at the expense of self and should that nature ever change never will it come at the hands of authority.

The trickery of human rights:
I keep noticing that people DO NOT defend themselves. Just look at how violence is often portrayed in films: A man, not even carrying a gun or a knife, attacks a woman -- and what does she do? Does she even try to defend herself, does she at least try to scratch him, kick him? No!! She begs him not to do her harm, curls up, and awaits the end.

Apparently, she is acting on her "right to live" and thinking that others should respect her right to live. And this is why she feels that if she should defend herself, she would actualy attack the one who is supposed to respect her right to live -- and thereby undermine her own right to be respected in her right to live!

We are taught not to exercise our strength, as this would eventually be a violation of human rights. However, this lesson spreads on all fields of life, even when it comes to self-defence.

It tells us to recognize others at the expense of self.


You owe allegiance to none one, save those of one's choosing.

Re-establishing the tribe.


You owe nothing- this is debtor mentality fit for prostitutes.

He who thinks he owes nothing, *is* noting.

Rosa:
Science, medicine. Being able to prevent death, heal wounds. One can nowadays always count that there *should* be a doctor who can help. -- All this brought death far far away from us, and made it a stranger, something we shun and fear.

And the scientific process, despite its merits, has left behind a trail of weak, presumptions cowards.
Its bred a civilized world of, to use Freud's words, Prosthetic Gods.

Weren't inequities simple once? Steal and get a hand lopped off.
Fornicate, lose thy penis.
We have corrupted from the simple act of retribution to the prolonged farce of the American penal system.
Didn't we gather around the guillotine once to watch a royal executed?
Didn't we sing at the gallows?
Didn't we pass by an execution once as gypsyes selling elixirs for a guinea while death was imminent right behind us?
Now its become a terrifying monster they blurr out on television.
I liken death to to the genital in how concealment arouses intrigue and desire.

This is why to the Muslim death is nothing, compared to the pampered Christian who trembles at a paper cut.

But nowadays, the feeling diluted, as we are supposed to have it for thousands of people! Something, that was meant for but a hundred, if not less. The human ability to love, as well as to hate, is limited by the 24 hours that are in a day, and other natural limitations of the human mind and body.

Modern life teaches us that we aren't supposed to acknowledge these natural limitations. And that they are bad.

Right on.
Human relations have gone from loyalty to obligation.
THe comforts of brother have been exhange for the artifice of acquaintance and look how easy the thinking mind is annoyed with their cheerful presence.

Each and every prole is spread wide and way thin that he can only give the 25% of himself left over since all the rest has been prostituted.
They love diluted.
Hate diluted.
Think, feel, and speak diluted.

This is where human progress lead to.

Lovely little shithole.

keep noticing that people DO NOT defend themselves. Just look at how violence is often portrayed in films: A man, not even carrying a gun or a knife, attacks a woman -- and what does she do? Does she even try to defend herself, does she at least try to scratch him, kick him? No!! She begs him not to do her harm, curls up, and awaits the end.

Apparently, she is acting on her "right to live" and thinking that others should respect her right to live. And this is why she feels that if she should defend herself, she would actualy attack the one who is supposed to respect her right to live -- and thereby undermine her own right to be respected in her right to live!

We are taught not to exercise our strength, as this would eventually be a violation of human rights. However, this lesson spreads on all fields of life, even when it comes to self-defence.

It tells us to recognize others at the expense of self.

Even better- we've beat civility into the genes.
Grab a human baby and coyote pup and stick them both out in the middle of the Kalahari. The coyote leaps on its tiny paws and crawls to safety while this human genius lays there doing squat.

Grahhhahahhaha..God, we're fucked.
Re-establishing the tribe.

A tribe is a small, healthy comfort. Comprised of either one, two, or many.
I long for tribes.

He who thinks he owes nothing, *is* noting.
He who thinks he owes, owns nothing.
Take that to your grave.
The higher mind owes shit.

Vert:
You've forgotten the philsophical killer.

You've forgotten the philsophical killer.

I've forgotten many killers. Space is limited, you realize. ;)

But I'm not particularly concerned with types of serial killers.

You for example, how simple I would find it to shoot through the skull for your killing of cats. Enchantment with the macabre would have little to do with it, it'd be done in sheer anger.
Morality, bias, truth- all die in the face of aggression.
And we all have it.

Meh. Neither here nor there.

The thing I was going on about with the type of killer was each types regard of consequences. Consequence seems to be at the heart of this matter of respect. Do you disagree?

Each of the types kills and doesn't kill for various reasons. It all led to the final paragraphs on the hypocrisy of respect.


Edit: Ok. You brought it up. I bet this will really gets Rosa's goat, but fuck it.

The killing of cats. When I was a younger man, a stupid teenager, I and some of my friends used to drive around all night long getting shitfaced drunk. We lived in a small rural community where nothing was going on. We were the action of the town. And that action was boring. So, one of the things we got a minor thrill from was cat-hunting. We didn't go track them down and kill them by hand or anything, but when one crossed the path of the vehicle. Squeeze the gas. Dead cat. Some fun, huh? Stupid, cruel, and pointless. What else is new for a teenager in the US? HMM?

Also, my grandmother was a cat-lady. She had over a hundred cats in her care. These cats were nothing but fucking parasites. Breeding like rabbits and taking over the place. My grandmother was too kindhearted to do anything about it. So, at my family's behest, I and several other of my relatives went to her place while she was gone and removed several of the cats from her care. We had to kill them. If we just relocated them, they'd be back the next day. This killing of cats I have no qualms about. I do feel tinges of guilt over the senseless acts of drunken driving. But removing this parasites was sheer economics. I have NO guilt over this.

If you don't like it. Screw ya. We all have moral decisions to make.

The thing I was going on about with the type of killer was each types regard of consequences. Consequence seems to be at the heart of this matter of respect. Do you disagree?


Yes and no.
Yes, for the calculating killer. All his actions are shaped by the fear invoked by repurcussions. Hence, the founnding of Hammurabi's Code.

No, for those inclined to the macabre. His fellow men he sees as Gods since man's death has been concealed from him. In his wanting to feel their blood, look inside, peel their skin and wear it- in that, he respects.
Ed Gein was a respectful killer and consequence was the last thing at the heart of his respect.

The killing of cats. When I was a younger man, a stupid teenager, I and some of my friends used to drive around all night long getting shitfaced drunk. We lived in a small rural community where nothing was going on. We were the action of the town. And that action was boring. So, one of the things we got a minor thrill from was cat-hunting. We didn't go track them down and kill them by hand or anything, but when one crossed the path of the vehicle. Squeeze the gas. Dead cat. Some fun, huh? Stupid, cruel, and pointless. What else is new for a teenager in the US? HMM?

Translation: I was a bloody redneck. Twang!

If you don't like it. Screw ya. We all have moral decisions to make.
And watching you die a slow death in my Brazen Bull is the most moral one among them, asshole.

That's why I tried to highlight several types of killer. Several mixtures of fear of consequence, fear of reprisal, and also fear of guilt. Three factors that play a part in this respect of the modern age.

Translation: I was a bloody redneck. Twang!

Don't have to be a redneck to be a stupid cruel teenager. Do I regret my actions? Yes, somewhat. I can picture now someone going out to find their beloved cat half-dead in the street with it's rear half smashed. It's front half yowling. But, as I've said so often that was someone else. I am a different person than that fucking idiot.

And watching you die a slow death in my Brazen Bull is the most moral one among them, asshole.

For removing parasites from my grandmother's body you'd murder me. Fine. As I say, we have moral decisions to make. You make yours, I'll make mine.

I have no regrets over what I did.

You mention (elsewhere) that there are organizations that could deal with it. In my home town there are no such organizations. My home town is a tiny little fleabitten piece of shit on the side of the road. No one would do anything. We had to do it ourselves. HAD TO!

Much as I love the little creeps:

I can picture now someone going out to find their beloved cat half-dead in the street with it's rear half smashed.It's front half yowling
...this image was funny. You did that on purpose.
*yowl* fart *yowl* fart* yowl*

For removing parasites from my grandmother's body you'd murder me
In a heartbeat.
Your moral decision betrays itself with vocabulary. Your use of the word 'parasite' is a qualifier- the use of it is what makes your decision.
To the Southern White in Georgia a nigger was a vile, filthy, roach every time he uttered the word 'nigger'

...this image was funny. You did that on purpose.
*yowl* fart *yowl* fart* yowl*

You bitch. How dare you bring humor into this? I saw no humor in it until you brought in the fart joke. Now I can only see that putrifying cat from That's My Bush (which you've probably never seen.) Rowr.

Your moral decision betrays itself with vocabulary. Your use of the word 'parasite' is a qualifier- the use of it is what makes your decision.

In the situation, they were parasites. They contributed nothing to the relationship. Some few she'd take under her wing and raise them tame. The rest were all wild, evil things. They didn't hunt mice. They didn't do squat but hang out waiting for handouts. And she was more than happy to give them everything she had. She would rather feed them than feed herself.

To the Southern White in Georgie a nigger was a vile, filthy, vermin every time he uttered the word 'nigger'

Ok, maybe I have bolstered my decision to follow this course with my choice of words. So what? We do what we must do. Those cats had to go. If they needed to be demonized in order to escape the pangs of conscience then so be it.

Yep, gendankens right, I agree with her.
Ofcourse, I would agree with her, because I've said all this shit a thousand times before and now she comes out with a fucking lightbulb on her head like "I just noticed"... fuck you gendanken, fuck you to hell.

Actually, I just want to insult gendanken before she insults me.
I have said all this before, but more angrily, and I focussed more on how people complain about shit like "needing closure for their dead son" like its their god given right to recieve "closure". That just really pisses me off. Humans have become so spoilt and obnoxious. I'd like to give them "closure" by sending them a video of me cooking their son alive in an oven on low heat.

Like gendanken will now mock me in some way, its not right. She should be a little quiet mouse in the corner, hoping I don't beat her and humiliate her in front of my friends again. Her clan should hand her over in exchange for my clan not kicking their asses and then we should be able to feast on gendankens sweet flesh. But no, instead she will type something offensive towards me and despite my physical superiority I will just have to sit here like a jackass, read it and move on.
Even on the street she could mock me, and if I punch her in her smart mouth humanity as 1 unified clan will come crashing down upon me. :mad:

Vert:
In the situation, they were parasites. They contributed nothing to the relationship. Some few she'd take under her wing and raise them tame. The rest were all wild, evil things. They didn't hunt mice. They didn't do squat but hang out waiting for handouts. And she was more than happy to give them everything she had. She would rather feed them than feed herself.

One who breeds parasites is the bigger parasite.
Pardon, but your grandmother was an expendible leech as well.

Lola:
Actually, I just want to insult gendanken before she insults me.
I have said all this before, but more angrily, and I focussed more on how people complain about shit like "needing closure for their dead son" like its their god given right to recieve "closure". That just really pisses me off. Humans have become so spoilt and obnoxious. I'd like to give them "closure" by sending them a video of me cooking their son alive in an oven on low heat.
I would never even think of insulting you.
I'm sugar and spice and everything nice and respect all my fellow human's right to their dignity.

Those families bawling their eyes out over their little princess getting hacked to bits "like an animal", as if human death is a massacre? I respect their selfish inanity!

(you may have 'said all this' my dear, but more childishly)

One who breeds parasites is the bigger parasite.
Pardon, but your grandmother was an expendible leech as well.

Mean-ass bitch. You get all bent out of shape over cats being killed and here you are insinuating that it should have been my grandmother who should have been taken out to be shot?

I'll let it go, because, in a way you're right. She did create her own problems. She did breed these parasites. She should have known better, but they get to her psychologically. It's a common occurence in the old. These cat-ladies.

But, unlike the cats, she did have something to offer. She was a loving woman who was always willing and able to babysit any of her grandchildren. She always had time for us. Always had an ear for whatever marvelous thing we had thought of or learned (ok, most of my family were retards, but I learned things upon occasion. ;)) In fact, when I was real young she used to read to me. I credit her reading to me as the spark of imagination that led me to an intelligent mode of living. Not the sole spark, but certainly led me along the path.

She gave. The cats took. When she died, it was a loss to the family. Actually, I take that back. When she died she had already been dead for years (Alzheimer's). But, when she sunk into Alzheimer's, that was a loss for our family. A tremendous loss.

Mean-ass bitch
Write this out in all caps next time so, you know, it could, like, hurt more.

You realize that was sarcasm? I hope? I did after all say that you were right in a way, right afterwards. Oy.

And, what do you expect after calling my grandma an expendable leech? That I'd call you sweet and rosy? Sheesh.

A loss? it was probably a much greater loss to the kittens waiting in some burrow when you ran over their mother, don't you think?
Your grandmother should have been eaten a long time before she decayed away the way she did. You're incredibly lucky you got to spend such an unnatural amount of time with her. You saw her weak and feeble, yet STILL living comfortably, rather than torn to shreds by jackals. Thats insanely fortunate. She wasn't even hungry. When her teeth fell out her food was softened instead of the traditional "she starved to death". What did you and her do to recieve these unearthly priveledges? Are you Gods?
And now you expect condolensces for this? We should give you a hug because your grandmother lived one of the most comfortable lives in the history of the universe and you witnessed it eventually peacefully come to an end long after it rightfully should have?
Thats crazy, pelicans and whales and bison everywhere are outraged by your audacity.

you may have 'said all this' my dear, but more childishly
Without a doubt, but who are you? My editor?

A loss? it was probably a much greater loss to the kittens waiting in some burrow when you ran over their mother, don't you think?

Possibly. But, those kittens might very well have been eaten alive by that very same mother. It happens as I'm sure you're aware. Or maybe a wandering Tom. Or god knows what. Cat's that roam the streets are less likely to live long lives than those confined to the house. This is a known fact. But, anyway, I've already said I felt guilt over those stupid actions. No need to fucking rub it in, Doc Natic.

Your grandmother should have been eaten a long time before she decayed away the way she did. You're incredibly lucky you got to spend such an unnatural amount of time with her. You saw her weak and feeble, yet STILL living comfortably, rather than torn to shreds by jackals. Thats insanely fortunate. She wasn't even hungry. When her teeth fell out her food was softened instead of the traditional "she starved to death". What did you and her do to recieve these unearthly priveledges? Are you Gods?

Humans have adapted long ago for their elderly to continue living to help raise the young. It happened while we were still basically animals. Of course, the elderly then were 40 years old or whatever, but the point stands. My grandmother was a productive citizen most of her life. She worked practically every day of her life for most of her life. In her later years, she was supported by her family and she in turn supported her family. She raised her grandchildren. This is the contract that we have with the elderly. The only thing about my grandmother's life that I regret are the Alzheimer's years. I'd rather she was allowed to die when it started to get to that point. But, that's not the way it works, is it? Hence this thread.

You know, my mother works in a nursing home. She says that lots of times old people will reach a point where they just stop eating. I figured they'd force feed them or feed them through an IV or something. Turns out they let them waste away. That's heartening.

And now you expect condolensces for this? We should give you a hug because your grandmother lived one of the most comfortable lives in the history of the universe and you witnessed it eventually peacefully come to an end long after it rightfully should have?

When did I ever ask for fucking condolences, Dr Lou? You must be taking your own medications because I never asked for sympathy. Why the hell would I want sympathy from some nameless text on a goddamn internet forum for my grandmother's demise? She died several years ago. I've had all the condolences I need. You're going off on some tangent here, bud. All I did was explain that my grandma was valuable to her family. And she was. For the reasons I've given and more. If you can't accept those reasons, then I don't really give a shit. She's cold and dead and it don't make a shit anymore.

Thats crazy, pelicans and whales and bison everywhere are outraged by your audacity.

Mmmm. Buffalo burger... *drool*

A tribe is a small, healthy comfort. Comprised of either one, two, or many.
I long for tribes.

But note: the tribe, originally, is defined by blood, it is pre-choice, it is a matter of fact.

The modern tribe based on choice is a farce.



***
Ok. You brought it up. I bet this will really gets Rosa's goat, but fuck it.

A hint, since an axblow would disable you from learning something: The true revenger does not speak of his revenge.

Rosa,

Ok. :) Just so you know, get your goat is an American phrase that basically means makes you angry. Nothing to do with any Slovenian translations or anything. I know how you feel about cats.

And, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for your axblow. You can really hurt me bad through this machine I bet. :eek:

Seriously, I have no clue where we went astray the last time. But whatever.

Seriously, I have no clue where we went astray the last time. But whatever.

It is exactly of this "but whatever" attitude that "we go astray".

Rosa:
But note: the tribe, originally, is defined by blood, it is pre-choice, it is a matter of fact.

The modern tribe based on choice is a farce.


But what value do we place on choice?
Myself- I'm tied to a Sibling by blood, I hate her with a loathing common between Jews and Muslims.
Blood is nothing- are you of mind that loyalty is only possible with blood?
How farcical is it to you to find people of like mind brought together by the things they love in common?
Einstein had idissoluble bonds with Curie and Besso, Feynaman- another genius surrounded by those of like mind.

Speaking of axes, I was looking at my cat the other day bent over a bathtub licking the waterleak.
I depersoanlized the situation and thought to myself- this was run over by an idiot years ago.
This animal that would look this same idiot in the eyes with pure innocence years later thinking nothing would suffer being killed again becuase this moron thinks him a parasite.
This moron, again years later, will end up on a forum presumably enlightened. He comes off so nice and civil yet with those very hands he uses in typing his tripe were the same ones that bruatalized innocence because of his lovey, wovey gwamma.
I thought how wonderful it would be to take this idiot out on an island somewhere and dash his brains with an axe.

Shit, gendy, I know xev and wanderer arent around much, but your really beggining to sound like you want to replace both of them.

Loyalty is not only possible with blood. But if you remember the old saw, i forget exactly where from, "me against my brother, my brother and I against my cousin, my family against the world." Or thereabouts.
the family ties are valuable precisely because of the familiarity and the shared genetic heritage, (although perhaps some evolutionists overstate it.) Anyway, when you are in a primitive society, your family is your fist port of call, and from that you build up linkages and such across families, tribes etc. Politics is important.

I dont quite understand your cat thing. Are you suggesting that being like an animal is not a good idea? Or that we tend to forgive and forget, especially when we're all anonymous on the internet. (and lets see how much anonymity is prized and increased in the modern world.)

Guthrie:
Shit, gendy, I know xev and wanderer arent around much, but your really beggining to sound like you want to replace both of them.
Uhm.
Like *flips hair* yeah they are and I've always been strong willed.

I dont quite understand your cat thing. Are you suggesting that being like an animal is not a good idea? Or that we tend to forgive and forget, especially when we're all anonymous on the internet. (and lets see how much anonymity is prized and increased in the modern world.)
You threadskimming fucking leech- you are of no use here.
Hasn't even dawned on the man that Invert was a cat killer.

I'm so glad I didnt read all the thread. I have just done so, and its not pretty.

Anyhooooo, your point seems to be based in part upon a ranking of humanity according to some values. Care to tell us what they are? I can see invert nexus's valuing his grandmother over some cats taking food from her, but why do you implicitly award the guy who goes to prositutes more value points than the prostitute?

In fact, you even seem to be going down the road of those people I sometimes call "subjectivists." I'm sure you can work out their philosolphy.

Then death etc wasnt always given out by gods, it was given out by men pretending to be gods, and men to each other due to insult or momentary gain.

What is the point, is that most of us recognise that recognising others is not actually done at our expense, and is often to our advantage.

Comcommitantly, if you owe nothing, you are also owed nothing. So, how does it feel to be standing in the wilderness shivering through lack of clothes, Gendanken?

But what value do we place on choice?

A lot. *Man*, would we like to be *God*.


Myself- I'm tied to a Sibling by blood, I hate her with a loathing common between Jews and Muslims.

I am an only child. I don't know what it feels like to have a sibling. Although I have always wanted to have one.


Blood is nothing- are you of mind that loyalty is only possible with blood?

No. But blood-ties are so wonderfully pre-choice, something that is beyond our scope of understanding. I bet you can't hate anyone in such a visceral manner the way you hate someone of your blood. You can break up with a friend, but you cannot really break up with a sibling.


How farcical is it to you to find people of like mind brought together by the things they love in common?

That is, if people of like mind are brought together by the things they *love* in common.


Einstein had idissoluble bonds with Curie and Besso, Feynaman- another genius surrounded by those of like mind.

This, the noble way. Grand. But not exactly common and frequent, wouldn't you say?

People of like mind brought together by the things they love in common -- usually results in a cult or political party. How pathetic.


Speaking of axes, I was looking at my cat the other day bent over a bathtub licking the waterleak.

You have a kitty darling?! How absolutely sweet! Now, once cats are mentioned, I tend to get ... um. Well, I'll brace myself.
But I have a 20-year old cat, we grew up together. The sweetest thing. Oh.


I thought how wonderful it would be to take this idiot out on an island somewhere and dash his brains with an axe.

I wouldn't be *that* nice. An axe is mercy. A cat killer deserves hellish pains. I'd kill him the way cats do. But I think the lowlife would die of fear, before I'd even touch him.

Speaking of axes, I was looking at my cat the other day bent over a bathtub licking the waterleak.
I depersoanlized the situation and thought to myself- this was run over by an idiot years ago.
This animal that would look this same idiot in the eyes with pure innocence years later thinking nothing would suffer being killed again becuase this moron thinks him a parasite.
This moron, again years later, will end up on a forum presumably enlightened. He comes off so nice and civil yet with those very hands he uses in typing his tripe were the same ones that bruatalized innocence because of his lovey, wovey gwamma.
I thought how wonderful it would be to take this idiot out on an island somewhere and dash his brains with an axe.

You're confusing terms here, Gendanken. The parasite were the wild cats that used my Grandmother. The cats I ran over were not necessarily parasites. I feel guilt over the ones that were ran over. I feel no guilt over the others.

I wouldn't be *that* nice. An axe is mercy. A cat killer deserves hellish pains. I'd kill him the way cats do. But I think the lowlife would die of fear, before I'd even touch him.

Rosa, these cats that were removed (THE ONES I DON'T FUCKING FEEL GUILTY ABOUT!!) would jump on you and tear you to fucking shreds. They were wild, evil things. They were not your *sweet* pet. If they were tame, we could have undoubtably found homes for *some* of them, but they weren't tame. They were savage beasts. Narcisistic. There was no home for them. There was not even a way to gather them up to drive them to the country somewhere. And if we had, what then? Do you think that would have been a mercy? Do you know what would have happened to these animals in the country? Starvation and death. Probably eaten alive by coyotes. (There are wild predators left in Kansas. Don't know about Slovenia.) Is that what you would prefer, Rosa? Take them to the country and give the coyotes an easy meal? Is that so much better than a bullet through the brain? Hmmm?


This is really fucking ridiculous that you are all obssessing over this stupid shit that happened 15 years ago. If you want to simply say "anyone that kills a cat, any cat, for whatever reason, deserves a slow painful death. Forever and ever. No forgiveness. No understanding. No nothing." Then fuck you. Fuck you all. You're jumping to snap judgments just as much as he who blindly leaps to save a prostitute from drowning just because she's human. Or to avenge the death of that prostitute far beyond it's worth.

I had my reasons. They were good fucking reasons. I've outlined those reasons to you and you refuse to accept them. I can give no better reasons because that's all the reasons there are.



Hmmm. I wonder. Is this what's going on? Are you trying to use this cat example to show how silly this thing is? The way that a murder of even the lowest human is avenged to such a degree? Somehow, I think you may be and you may not be. But, regardless of your intent, you are illustrating how silly it is. By being silly yourselves.

I feel guilt over the ones that were ran over. I feel no guilt over the others.

Things must be done, ugly things sometimes.

But to talk about them with a malignant ease like you do!

To determine which cat *deserved* death -- based on whether you felt guilty afterwards!

That those "savage beasts" *deserved* to be killed!


A man does what a man must do. But a man does not brag about it later on. Neither does a man give his reasons, trying to justify his actions.


Sapienti sat.

"Neither does a man give his reasons, trying to justify his actions."

Oh, come, Rosa. If an action is not justifiable, said action should not have been taken in the first place.

If an action is not justifiable, said action should not have been taken in the first place.

Oh, you, come. It is about *what* one uses as a justification. Saying that those other cats deserved to be killed because they were "savage beasts" is not a proper justification for me.

Rosa, these cats that were removed (THE ONES I DON'T FUCKING FEEL GUILTY ABOUT!!) would jump on you and tear you to fucking shreds. They were wild, evil things. They were not your *sweet* pet. If they were tame, we could have undoubtably found homes for *some* of them, but they weren't tame. They were savage beasts. Narcisistic.

Aww, I bet they looked really cute though eh, with their pointy triangular ears and lickle nose :(
I really want to stroke a cat now and whisper "I will never let invert_nexus near u" :D

Things must be done, ugly things sometimes.

But to talk about them with a malignant ease like you do!

Malignant ease?! WTF?! Is that how this comes across? I'm defending myself here. I didn't bring it up. This was fodder from a private conversation that was brought into the public domain. I am not easy with discussing these things. I have no guilt over killing the feral cats, but the others I do suffer guilt over.

I think that it doesn't matter how I discuss these matters. I think that you saw the words cat killer and conjured up this 'malignant ease' mentality. You are making me into something that I am not.


To determine which cat *deserved* death -- based on whether you felt guilty afterwards!

That those "savage beasts" *deserved* to be killed!

What? You act as though I sat on a high chair somewhere looking down upon the kingdom of cats determining which shall live and which shall die. The ones that were run over were random. The others were almost random. The ones that came into sight were killed.

Don't like the term "savage beasts" eh? How about feral? They were not tame. Not at all. They would tear you up if you tried to bestow your precious love on them. All they cared about was fucking, fighting, and feeding. And fleeing, too. I suppose. The four F's. One thing for sure, they had no use for your love. No use for your compassion.

A man does what a man must do. But a man does not brag about it later on. Neither does a man give his reasons, trying to justify his actions.

Brag? More like defending myself. Not give reasons or justify their actions? Oh? Is that what you really think? Then I guess you agree with the Nazi's extermination of the jews? They didn't give reasons or try to justify their actions. Seems that you're promoting the law of the jungle with this statement, Rosa.

Personally, I don't think that this is what you really think. I think you just know I've got a good point and you're pissed about it. A cat killer isn't allowed good points.

Sapienti sat.

*sigh* Again with the latin. You realize how much of a *bitch* it is to search about and try to find these obscure little phrases? Especially difficult when you only use part of a phrase.

Dictum sapienti sat est: "The said is enough for the wise" — understandable for a wise one without the need for explanations (Plautus), also as: sat sapienti and sapienti sat.

So, if I had not explained anything then you would have understood? Bullshit. And you know it. Try that act somewhere else.


Oh, you, come. It is about *what* one uses as a justification. Saying that those other cats deserved to be killed because they were "savage beasts" is not a proper justification for me.

*sigh* Oh yes. Ignore everything I've said except for one little phrase. Savage beasts. Everything else I've said is absolutely meaningless. Isn't it? All the other reasons of which 'savage beast' is only the icing on the cake.


I really want to stroke a cat now and whisper "I will never let invert_nexus near u"

It's a pity that my grandma is dead and I can't round up a sack full of her feral cats. Now that I know these cat lovers, surely I could have packed them in a sack and mailed them to you, Rosa, and Gendanken. You would have loved them as they deserve to be loved, yes?

Might want to be careful sticking your hand in that sack though. Might pull back a stump.





I still think that this is a means of illustrating the ridiculousness of the endless amounts of time and energy poured into the slightest case of murder.

I wonder if Gendanken meant it to illustrate this ridiculousness or if she just caught up in her own emotion?

I wonder if she would admit to the less than... Gendankeny path?

Hmm.

Respect is a modern LUXURY, Invert, don't forget this.


Those cats you have killed at your grandma's may not have been tame. But the reason they have gone wild is because there are such loveless, lifeless people in the world who do not take care for their animals.

Those cats did not deserve to be killed. I can understand that they had to be killed, but this is a choice between greater and lesser damage, not a choice between good and bad. There is nothing to be proud or be guilty of.

And you can't see further than your nose.

I think I would rather say that respect is a byproduct of the society.

Please let's not act as if by virtue of being primates, being inately agressive, we cannot somehow rise above this fundamental state of being. For societies to function well, i.e. gorverned entities not ruled by anarchy, certain rules or characteristics have to be present. Humans have lived in socities large and small for thousands of years now. And while it is true that we evolved from smaller clans-- the immediate family for instance, we have demosntrated an ability to free outside from many of our primal ways.

While it is true that consequences faced by a potential murderer may allow for said individual to restrain themselves, I think far more choose not to because of moral, rleigious, etc safeguards we have in place. I for one value our rational self over the primal.

Rosa,

I have to say that that was the most illogical, pathetic reply I've ever seen you make. You ignore all my points, all my logic, don't address them at all. You simply called me an ignorant asshole and my grandmother a lazy, loveless bitch. Two points which are based on your emotional connections to this topic. Seperate yourself a bit Rosa. This is unbecoming to you.



Respect is a modern LUXURY, Invert, don't forget this.
Implying that I don't have this luxury from you? I've know that for quite some time. And for interesting reasons. Oh. Interesting did I say? I mean boring.

Those cats you have killed at your grandma's may not have been tame. But the reason they have gone wild is because there are such loveless, lifeless people in the world who do not take care for their animals.

Bullshit. Those cats were born wild. They were not made tame. Not by a loveless, lifeless person but one who was overfull of love and compassion. It was her compassion and love towards these cats that allowed her to continue feeding and caring for them as their population grew greater and greater.

You know, for some reason, I see this fate in store for you, Rosa. Rosa surrounded by her hundred cats. Maybe John will come by every now and again to pet your gato. I hope your grandchildren (or grandnephews if you never have your own children) will have enough respect for you to clear some of them away while you're not looking. I hope that you don't die with your cats around you, Rosa. I can see you now being eaten by your loving cats. Your respect and compassion towards them meaningless in nature. You being just another meal by this strange human who cares for them. A last meal.

Those cats did not deserve to be killed. I can understand that they had to be killed, but this is a choice between greater and lesser damage, not a choice between good and bad. There is nothing to be proud or be guilty of.

If there is nothing to be guilty of then why do you wish to kill me? Why do you wish to kill me as a cat kills its prey? Why?

Proud? Again you imply that I am proud of this shit. Nope. So sorry. Try again.

And you can't see further than your nose.

Ooooh. She wounds me. I'm a blind, blind fool. Ouch. How will I ever live this down? I don't think I can. I think I'll go find a wild cat preserve and throw myself to the lions.

Ha!


FountainHed,

I think I would rather say that respect is a byproduct of the society.

You are saying that society is not a modern invention. Correct. But, it's more than mere society. It's the shrinking of the world. Once a society knew it's neighbors and feared the huns. Now, we are all neighbors and the huns are not allowed. We must love and respect the entirety of humanity or we are less then human.

The problem comes from the artificial largeness of the group. Of the all-inclusiveness. To be a group, there must be something outside the group.

While it is true that consequences faced by a potential murderer may allow for said individual to restrain themselves, I think far more choose not to because of moral, rleigious, etc safeguards we have in place. I for one value our rational self over the primal.

Consequences, guilt, and fear. Three warring emotions. Among countless others. Nothing is as simple as 1, 2, 3.

[QUOTE=RosaMagika]Respect is a modern LUXURY, Invert, don't forget this.
QUOTE]

Nope. respect is a necessity of any kind of society, as the fountainhed says. The point that it is perhaps exagerates these days is more to do with the greater crowding in cities and the weakening of some social connections (like there not being a bunch of relatives and tribe members to get revenge if your killed.)

Or if it means that one must pretend to ignore indirect sidewise attacks, attacks that might be denied by the attacker, it means nothing.

This is a trait amongst many of my family. They poke and jibe at each other. Rip and tear. But it's all done with plausible deniability. That way, when one member or the other finally snaps and breaks the 'code' they can say, "He just snapped. I didn't do anything. He attacked me for no reason."

It's called passive aggression and is a common trait amongst our modern respectful citizens of the world.

From Invert's last post to me:


Rosa,
Rosa.
Rosa.
Rosa
Rosa.


Huh, I love to see this name mentioned with such extreme density of occurence.

And I love to see people delete their posts because they know that I'm right.

Rosa. Rosamos. Rosario. Rosapepa. Rosemos. Rosaction.

Blah. If you can't handle people saying your user name in a conversation with you, then you've got problems. I suppose you think it's that I'm following you? Such ego you have.

But a hidden ego, isn't it? Why? Because ego on a woman is unattractive?

Respect is something that must be tricked from a person rather than a true showing of the self? Hmm?

Vert:
You're confusing terms here, Gendanken. The parasite were the wild cats that used my Grandmother. The cats I ran over were not necessarily parasites. I feel guilt over the ones that were ran over. I feel no guilt over the others.

I am confusing squat.

You desribe your gwama as being so full of love yet unloved she showered these beings with her surplus.
With her eyes she saw these homeless beings as tiny mirrors reflecting her loneliness yet there you were, a spineless worm, condemning them to parasitsm with your slaughter.
She saw saw innocence, hunger and loneliness when she looked in their eyes as this was her reflection.
You saw savagery and useless waste, a reflection of the teenaged piece of shit you presumalby no longer are.
Furry little teenaged parasites on all fours just like you.
Right?
Watch you say wrong.

I say presumably becuase you can actually look back and feel no guilt.
Animals so trusting they shelf their fears for the comforts we give them, animals who know only the innocence of play, lust and hunger.
That you can profess guilt for those you ran over but not for these you called parasites is this very luxury the modern prole, like yourself, feels entitled to.
As if you hold a fucking sword by which each animal is to be knigthed worthy or unworthy.

You feel no guilt? Even knowing my heart aches imagining the noise and the slaughter with you in the middle?
So the man feels no guilt, and neither would I with you tied to chair forced to watch me smashing your loved one's- any loved one, especially a child- smashing their skull in with a fucking brick.

I am confusing squat.

No. You were confusing terms. You compared the cats I ran over with the parasites.

You desribe your gwama as being so full of love yet unloved she showered these beings with her surplus.
With her eyes she saw these homeless beings as tiny mirrors reflecting her loneliness yet there you were, a spineless worm, condemning them to parasitsm with your slaughter.

No, in fact I described as a woman that was well-loved. By her whole family. But, she, as so many other old ladies, outlived her husbands. So she was without a significant other. So you could say she was unloved in that way. She also came from a time when love was different. People from her generation didn't really marry for love. They married for practicality. Her marriages were no different. I think. I never knew her first husband. He was dead far before I was born. Her second husband was unfeeling. There was only practicality in that marriage. My brothers grandparents are the same way. They do not shower love on each other. They show love through action. They are from an older generation.

But, that's all blah. Mere background.

She saw saw innocence, hunger and loneliness when she looked in their eyes as this was her reflection.
You saw savagery and useless waste, a reflection of the teenaged piece of shit you presumalby no longer are.
Furry little teenaged parasites on all fours just like you.

Wrong. :p

No, not completely. I, of course, was not aware of any such reflection. But I have little doubt that such might well be the case. I was a useless shit. I cared for nothing and no one. Even my wonderful grandma suffered my disaffection during this time. I hated myself and I hated the world. The cats were merely another part in it.

Animals so trusting they shelf their fears for the comforts we give them, animals who know only the innocence of play, lust and hunger.

And now we have Gendanken, an animal so sophisticated that she can forget the other F. Fighting. They were vicious bastards. The males would kill the infants. Sometimes they'd just go through the litters and chew their nuts off. This was their mercy, I suppose.

You know, one of the cats that my grandma tamed was called Jasper (well, that's what I called it. I think grandma had a different name for it. She didn't often name them, really.) Jasper was born with three legs and a runt to boot. She'd get along pretty good, though. Jasper survived grandma's move into an assisted living center. Jasper had a good many litters of kittens herself. A thing which would not have happened in the wild.

I also remember a cat named Jack. It was one of the first. This cat was HUGE! It was one of those orange cats. It's head was the size of a canteloupe. This cat could tear up small dogs. Jack lorded himself over those cats. And he wasn't kind about it. Not at all. Jack met his end one day. Not by me. No. A dog found him. And tore him to shreds. I never told grandma that I found him half-dead. That I sent the dog packing. Hell, I guess I did kill him. To tell the truth. I put him out of his misery that day. Do you think I should feel guilt for that act as well?

You know, I haven't thought about Jack in years.


My brother was at work one day when there arose a frightful yelping and screeching next door. He looked over the fence and saw a little old man trying to kill a dog with a small sledge hammer. Why? Becaue while backing up his Winnebago in the driveway, he ran the poor bastard. Scraping him over several feet. A long bloody smear. The dog was in agony but alive. The old man was trying to finish him but couldn't. He was too weak and too disturbed by what he had done, accidentally. My brother hopped the fence and took the sledge hammer and finished it. They laid a blanket over the body and minutes later the school bus showed up and that old man's grandkid got home.

Do you blame my brother for his action?

He had nightmares about that, you know. Ironic, because of another tale that I've told you (That I do not want spoken in public.) But, it's true. It really shook him up killing that dog.

You feel no guilt? Even knowing my heart aches imagining the noise and the slaughter with you in the middle?
So the man feels no guilt, and neither would I with you tied to chair forced to watch me smashing your loved one's- any loved one, especially a child- smashing their skull in with a fucking brick.

I'm sorry that your heart aches, Gendy. I can empathize with you. But, no, there was no other course of action open. It was a mercy killing in the end. You haven't mentioned the possibility of taking them to the country for the coyotes to eat. There are other possibilities as well. Possibilities that remove myself from directly causing their demise, but is the responsibility any less mine should I have chosen those paths? I feel that I would feel guilty if I had done it this way. If I had chickened out in such a cowardly manner.

Your analogy on loved ones doesn't hold true to the examples given. Apples and oranges.

RosaMajika,

Almost forgot to ask. Would you be so offended if I told you I had murdered a whore last night? That I dumped her body deep in the woods where no one will ever find her? Would this divert your attention from the killing of cats 15 years ago?

AHA!

You see now how one can feel for their fellow humans!
You see now how I feel for those morons in Jonestown, including the children, that lost themselves to propoganda.
You expressed empathy some thread ago at the thought of the children mangled with cyanide and I feel nothing.
For the 6 millions or so jews that went up in smoke I feel nothing.
For the man on the street that asks how my day was all he gets is a cold stare because he does not care, he's only playing part I refuse and don't feel like playing.
See him run over and I feel nothing.
Now do you see how conscience has to be beat into somebody?
No matter the angle or what I threw at you for the cat's sake, you never showed it (conscience) becuase you do not have it for those cats.
The mind of the cat never once enters yours as does the mind of 98% of humanity never once enters a certain type of murderer or seemingly 'cold' person.
This is the basis of conscinence, the awareness of another mind.
A few days before posting this thread I had occasion to watch a cold case file on a prostitute that had been murdered 15 years ago.
The killing was brutal enough that it drove both the parents into the grave and filled one private investigator with so much bitter frustration that he lost himself in trying to solve her case.
All the testimony, all the hurt and pain did JACK SHIT for my revulsion to see such energy expended on a useless expendible, a fucking commodity, a a prostitute that never cared for its own life let alone other's.

Somewhere in here I remembered the cats and the game began- I must say you made it hard by hinting your suspicions but still.
Stroke of genius.

ITS THIS that I need for you to see in my other thread little man. The Omnipotence of Murder.
You could never put the cat's mind in yours as the infant, or the autistic, or the schizophrenic can never put your mind in his.
Ergo, all four have no concience until one is beaten into them when forcedto recongnize you.

MUAHHAHAHAHA!

(True, I've been silly but it was needed.
I've also been purposely overbitchy as well, seeing if you'd break.
Your blooming defensiveness was betraying you.)

Grahahhahahahahahahahahahhahah......

How amusing…

You owe allegiance to none one, save those of one's choosing.
You owe nothing- this is debtor mentality fit for prostitutes.Neither are you due anything. You are no more original or special than the prostitute, what makes you think you are; grand thoughts, an occupation? Ha. And what are they worth as your corpse putrefies? As your grand being becomes fodder for worms, a feast for bacteria and mold? “Oh but she had great insight into our insignificance, grand visions of the self supreme.” But who is left that will care to remember your words? What value have they to me?

Killing and murder? More masturbation. Life is frail and easily extinguished, “See I can piss in the sand!” a great revelation of power indeed.

Rather an expression of a hobbled mind too filled with self-loathing, so bankrupt of self-worth… of any worth that it can find nothing within that might attract another’s attention. “I can kill therefore I am special” they all cry. They have nothing else to offer.

All morality is an expression of vanity. It stems from the self; there is nowhere else from which it could come. It exists to ennoble the self, to provide it with value and meaning. Respect is not something we owe to others; respect is that which we give to ourselves. “I have value therefore you have value” is all it means. Some would call down the Gods to give it validity but morality must precede the Gods, otherwise how do we know they are worthy? The self is indeed supreme but existing alone it has no value.

So what is it you have to offer and to whom?

~Raithere

Ergo, all four have no concience until one is beaten into them when forcedto recongnize you.

Interesting. Yes, recognition is certainly elemental. It is part of the problem of overlarge groups. How can one recognize one who we don't know? Will never know. Can never know.

And in overpopulated societies such as Japan where it considered the height of rudeness to push yourself into someone's awareness?


Heh. I knew what you were getting at. I more than hinted. I wonder what Rosa will think of the whole thing now? You used her, you realize.

Neither are you due anything. You are no more original or special than the prostitute, what makes you think you are; grand thoughts, an occupation? Ha. And what are they worth as your corpse putrefies? As your grand being becomes fodder for worms, a feast for bacteria and mold? “Oh but she had great insight into our insignificance, grand visions of the self supreme.” But who is left that will care to remember your words? What value have they to me?

Thus comes the requirement at earning respect. What value are her words to you after her death? None can say. No one valued Nietzsche while he was alive. No one valued van Goghe while he was alive. It wasn't until death claimed that their works reached greatness. Sometimes, the troublesome human behind the work must be removed for the work to achieve greatness.

Remove the whore from her work and the work is gone. Vanished along with her putrifying vagina.

Killing and murder? More masturbation. Life is frail and easily extinguished, “See I can piss in the sand!” a great revelation of power indeed.

Masturbation? You bring sex into it. Violence and sex combined in your mentality? Why? Violations of conscience lumped together into one vile loathing?

Life is frail at times. Some people die just by slipping on the sidewalk. Other times, it hangs on with a tenacity that is unbelievable. People can suffer from the most grotesque and horrifying injuries and still struggle to survive.

Ever seen the guy that had his face bitten off by a bear?

Rather an expression of a hobbled mind too filled with self-loathing, so bankrupt of self-worth… of any worth that it can find nothing within that might attract another’s attention. “I can kill therefore I am special” they all cry. They have nothing else to offer.

Certainly some killers kill for that reason. But not all. Surely you see that. Do soldiers kill because they have no sense of self-worth? Or because they have too much? (the last question doesn't really fit soldiers, but it does fit a broad range of killers.)

All morality is an expression of vanity. It stems from the self; there is nowhere else from which it could come. It exists to ennoble the self, to provide it with value and meaning. Respect is not something we owe to others; respect is that which we give to ourselves. “I have value therefore you have value” is all it means. Some would call down the Gods to give it validity but morality must precede the Gods, otherwise how do we know they are worthy? The self is indeed supreme but existing alone it has no value.

Yes and no. Morality comes from self, surely. It is our interpretation. Yet, it also comes from outside. It is our interpretation of that which we see about us. It is our interpretation on the ways and means with which we may interface with this thing called society. And as the groups grow larger (getting tired of saying that. Need a short phrase for it) the interpretation becomes ever more abstract and surreal.

The definition of respect you just gave is your interpretation. Others feel quite differently. Personally, I have said I give a tentative respect to strangers. I have since changed my definition. It's not a respect I give, but a politeness. It has been pointed out to me that they are not the same thing. And I agree. I give politeness in order to maintain contact (if I wish to maintain contact, which is not always). It's a welcoming. Respect comes later. And has nothing to do with getting respect in turn. To me anyway. THat would be too... insecure.

Respect is something that you give to those who you respect. If you don't respect them then don't show them respect hoping that they will offer it to you. If you respect them yet they don't respect you, then show them your respect (or keep it secret, there's no law that states respect must be known) don't deny it for such petty reasons.

The self is indeed supreme but existing alone it has no value.

So what is it you have to offer and to whom?

I agree with this statement. There is a delicate balance between self and group that must be maintained, but without group there is no self. I've said this often.

Admit it, Vert.

It was GENIUS.

Getting to you pukes some other time, including you Raither sitting up there with your pathetic sneer.
Hands hurt.

Oh, I do admit it. But, it could have been more geniuser. I feel. For instance, I know that someone was in on it. So, your whole point to this thing was to prove to me that this conscience is forced upon you externally. Beaten into you.

Now, this is certainly one means of instilling the proper (to those who raise the child) set of moral values, but it also instills the value of beating into the child. And also the value of being beaten.

Here's the thing. It's true that the child may not necessarily care to have the particular contents of conscience that the parents may desire. So, the parents attempt to force their values in. But, they fail. Always the contents of conscience is interpreted. Always. And by this interpretation, a quite different set of values than those desired may be instilled. And, the child may think that he learned the lesson of his parents well. It's not until the child matures and the contents of conscience flesh out and become associated with even more concepts and thoughts that these differences begin to show themselves.

How many serial killers had their particular brand of conscience beaten into them?

And how many serial killers had their brand of conscience carressed into them?

Equal proportions?

Possibly. Possibly not.

The point is that we are not aware of the inner workings well enough for this type of moral instillment to be 100% effective.

Mistakes happen.

And who's to blame when this occurs?


But, anyway, I think you could have been geniuser by leaving Rosa in the dark. You know as well as I that she would have continued her lashing at me. Hating me for being a cat killer. In fact, I feel you sabatoged her will to attack me. After she was told, her attacks became less coherent. She didn't put the effort into them she did before.

You see, I think that you could have made two points for the price of one. To me you could have attempted to demonstrate this beating of conscience. To her you could have demonstrated the ridiculousness of justice.

That would have been sheer genius.

But, you came so close and just didn't quite make it. :D

Sorry 'bout that. :p

Better luck next time.


However, you did raise a good point. I'll consider it and incorporate it into my theory of conscience. For, we inherently seek patterns in the social structure around us. We fill our box called conscience with something. But, on our own we might not come up with a socially desired conscience. So, deliberate steps are taken to manipulate the filling of the box. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

The Bene Gesserit of Dune were adept at this type of manipulation. This psychological murder. For, if anything can be called psychological murder it is the forced manipulation of conscience.

Thus comes the requirement at earning respect.Respect cannot be earned in a literal sense, it is only gifted. Unless what I have to offer complements your value system you will not respect my offering. Since we are both human many of our values are likely to be in accord. This comes into play below where you speak of the group dynamic.

Masturbation? You bring sex into it. Violence and sex combined in your mentality? Why? Violations of conscience lumped together into one vile loathing?Certainly I was not the one to bring sex into this dialogue but this was not my point. I meant masturbation as an essentially useless act of self gratification.

Other times, it hangs on with a tenacity that is unbelievable.My point is that killing is not a particularly difficult act.

Certainly some killers kill for that reason. But not all.I was under the impression that we were talking about murder as an act of self-realization. I do agree that not all killers fall under that heading.

Yes and no. Morality comes from self, surely. It is our interpretation. Yet, it also comes from outside. It is our interpretation of that which we see about us.I believe that the basis for our morality stems from our physical natures, some of which has adapted itself to a communal living arrangement. Certainly we build upon this from our experiences. My point, however, is that morality is intrinsically personal. You cannot simply adopt someone else’s morality. Although one may be forced to abide by another's in which case some will find a justification for it.

The definition of respect you just gave is your interpretation. Others feel quite differently.The feeling of respect I have is different than what I think respect is. In the context of this thread we seem to be talking about a general sense of respect between people. That even people deemed worthless by others have some value worth defending or avenging. In this context I believe we are indeed talking about the self. By demonstrating a basic level of respect for all people or all life we are really just affirming that we, ourselves, have an intrinsic value. It becomes a validation of our own value.

Respect is something that you give to those who you respect.Just a little circular there, don’t you think?

I agree with this statement. There is a delicate balance between self and group that must be maintained, but without group there is no self. I've said this often.I don’t know if I’d go quite that far.

~Raithere

Getting to you pukes some other time, including you Raither sitting up there with your pathetic sneer.
Hands hurt.I await breathlessly. Your sneer is so much prettier than my own.

~Raithere

So its been claimed. Cant say its correct or not. I dont exactly have an anthropological library that would back me up on what its like in tribal societies, but I see no reason to doubt that they do the same thing. A lot of people want something for less effort than it aught to take.

But, anyway, I think you could have been geniuser by leaving Rosa in the dark. You know as well as I that she would have continued her lashing at me. Hating me for being a cat killer. In fact, I feel you sabatoged her will to attack me. After she was told, her attacks became less coherent. She didn't put the effort into them she did before.

You see, I think that you could have made two points for the price of one. To me you could have attempted to demonstrate this beating of conscience. To her you could have demonstrated the ridiculousness of justice.

That would have been sheer genius.

But, you came so close and just didn't quite make it.

Sorry 'bout that.

Better luck next time.



Have you no heart?!

Rosa,

Have you no heart?!

Absolutely I have a heart. One that grows healthier by the day since I've quit smoking. ;)

But, I presume you mean "Do I have compassion? Emotions?" Absolutely. I am a very emotional person. Unfortunately, I don't understand them well so I tend to push them to the side and try to act rationally.

Why do you ask? Do you feel that I'm being hard on you? Why? You feel that because I stated that you would have demonstrated the ridiculousness of justice that I am cruel, evil, monstrous? Why?

You took part in a play where you attempted to lead me along by the emotions. Playing on an incident of my past that I was ashamed of and another that was done for someone I love. The thing is that you didn't even deal with the one I was ashamed of. You tried to 'beat' a conscience into me for the one where I had none. And in so doing, you said some rather mean and hateful things.

It's somewhat funny. Now that I think about it. (It was at the time, too. Especially the way your arguments degenerated.) But, now it's a dfferent funny. Because, Rosa, (Oooh. There's your name again.) you are now a cat killer. Enjoy.

You attempted to take part in a psychological murder. With full awareness of your actions. Do you feel guilty? Even a bit? For calling my beloved grandmother a loveless bitch? Do you feel guilty?

It's funny. If Gendanken had left you in the dark then you would be innocent. But, as it is, you are guilty. Inescapably and unavoidably guilty. Just as I am with those cats. The question is... have you no heart?

Oh. By the way. Scanning about here and there I came across a page with a convo between you and Spurious where you say that you have been called a bitch for your use of latin. Just to clear things up, in this thread I used the term *bitch*, but I was referring to the difficulty of translating these latin phrases. Not you in particular. Just want to be clear on that. Latin away, but just know that no one knows latin anymore. Not in America anyway. And, it is often seen that people speak other languages to say things they don't want to tell you directly. That's why people get defensive when it happens. And, I've seen it happen to others besides me. ;)


Raithere,

Respect cannot be earned in a literal sense, it is only gifted. Unless what I have to offer complements your value system you will not respect my offering. Since we are both human many of our values are likely to be in accord. This comes into play below where you speak of the group dynamic.

Right. Earned was only used because of the absence of a better word. True respect is an outflowing. It may be reciprocated but not necessarily. It is not so much action by the recipient that earns respect as interpretation of that action by the giver. It is, in the end, personal, as all things are really.

Certainly I was not the one to bring sex into this dialogue but this was not my point. I meant masturbation as an essentially useless act of self gratification.

I imagine there was some small talk of sex before we got sidetracked into cat killing. :D Did you really read the whole thing? Bravo.

Self-gratification. Sometimes masturbation is self-abuse. As is murder.

My point is that killing is not a particularly difficult act.

And my point is that it can be. It can be very easy and very hard. In more ways than one. First, one must get over the inhibitions instilled by society (unless he's escaped the moral instillment. Or twisted it's teachings.) The first murder is often preceded by years of fantasies and self-hate. Loathing of these fucked up images that roll through the mind. (This is of course the serial killer type murderer) It is a great divide that seperates the fantasy from reality despite the right brains unawareness of fantasy. Once that line is crossed, then it becomes easier. Easier each time. It is something to become accustomed to. Very few kill, for the first time, with ease.

Also, sometimes the bastards just won't die. You keep bludgeoning them on the head and they just keep screaming and gurgling and crawling away. You pierce their organs and they still hang on to their precious lives.

Have you, by any chance, heard of the young nurse who run over a homeless guy a few years back? She was fucked up on extasy and didn't call the police. The bum was lodged in her windshield. Alive. Horribly wounded but alive. He died over a period of three days, I believe it was. This murderess would occasionally go out to the garage and apologize profusely to the man for what she was doing. She would explain to him how she couldn't go to jail. How she was so precious to this world that she must survive, so he must die. I don't remember how she got caught. I oughta look into it. Get the full details.

I was under the impression that we were talking about murder as an act of self-realization. I do agree that not all killers fall under that heading.

I don't like to limit myself in such ways. It's more about the mentality of the non-killers rather than the killer.

My point, however, is that morality is intrinsically personal. You cannot simply adopt someone else’s morality. Although one may be forced to abide by another's in which case some will find a justification for it.

That's my view as well. So, we agree here. Although, being forced to abide by another's moral code would in the end be another interpretation. Subject to all the possibilities of error that is inherent in any interpretation.

In the context of this thread we seem to be talking about a general sense of respect between people. That even people deemed worthless by others have some value worth defending or avenging. In this context I believe we are indeed talking about the self. By demonstrating a basic level of respect for all people or all life we are really just affirming that we, ourselves, have an intrinsic value. It becomes a validation of our own value.

Hmm. Perhaps I have been using the improper usage of respect. A personalized respect that one gives to someone they look up to, rather than a general respect for life.

Hmmm. I'll need to think about this. I'm sure Gendanken will have something to say about it. Maybe she can clear my mind a bit on this.

Me: Respect is something that you give to those who you respect.

You: Just a little circular there, don’t you think?

Heh. Yeah. But also no. I'm using respect in two different ways there. The first respect is a noun. It is the thing that is bestowed. The second respect is a verb. The emotion inside of you that prompts the giving.

Lack of terminology leads to the appearance of circularity. Methinks.

I don’t know if I’d go quite that far.

Me neither. Not entirely. But, in the end it's true. If one never knows another then he is feral. There is little self, human self, in the feral. Those who have known the group but seperated lose themselves gradually. The memory of the group remains to reinforce their selves, but even so, it becomes dimmer by the day.

We are social animals. Born and bred to it. We don't fare well in isolation. Complete isolation.

I oughta look into it. Get the full details.

Found it. The Windshield Murderer (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mallard1.html) at the Smoking Gun. Enjoy. That's respect for you. Let me tell you what. :D


Edit: From the site:

29. That Maranda advised that Shantae giggled when she said, "I hit this white man."

White man. Not of her group.

30. That Shantae state that she was messed up on X pills and was drunk. She advised that when she hit the man, she got scared and that the man was sticking halfway into the passenger compartment through the windshield.

She got scared. Here was this white man impinging himself on her awareness so fucking rudely. And here she was just going along her merry way fucked up on X and booze. Damn whitey. Always on my back.

Fear of punishment. Shows no signs of guilt as of yet. No fear of reprisal from the wounded. He's far too gone for that.

32. Shantae stated that she then went inside, had sex with her boyfriend and then she and her boyfriend, Terrance, went out the the garage and the man wasn't dead yet, but he was dying.

Attempt to seperate herself from the act. Go up and make use of the extasy to further her selfish libido. Hoping, beyond hope, that the problem would solve itself. All she had to do was fuck long enough.

33. That Shantae stated that the man was asking them to help him, but that they just walked back inside.

"Help me. Please. Why are you doing this? Just take me to a hospital, I won't tell. Please." You could have heard a pin drop when they turned and shut the door.

34. that Shantae advised that they waited until he died, which was a couple of days.

Problem solved. It just takes time. And to think. She didn't even dirty her own hands. What a gal.

58. That Chante (the proper spelling. The above was from a friend who Chante was bragging to) stated that she sat there and cried and kept telling the white male that was sticking through her windshield that she was sorry. She said that the man would respond to her, but she could not hear what he was saying.

Now, the guilt begins to arrive. Was it there to begin with? Then why did she brag so mercilessly to friend earlier? Now that the consequences arrive things are so much different. And the interpreter would have it that it was always so.

59. That Chante stated that she went into the house and was lying in the kitchen floor and crying and would go back out and tell the man she was sorry, but she advised that the man was just moaning.

"Oh, I felt so bad for that white man. Oh, poor me."

60. That Chante kept going in and out of the garage telling the man she was sorry. She does not know long it took the man to die, she quit going into the garage.

"Sorry. I'm very sorry. Want a hamburger, Mr. Dying White Man? Maybe it'll hasten your demise?"

61. That Chante called a man named "Vaughn" who came over and saw what had happened and then took Chante to a friend's house and told her he had to care of something.

Chante acquired another to clean up her mess. Not only could she not finish the deed mercifully. Not accept her state as a murderer, she couldn't even clean it up. It was always someone elses fault. The pills, the booze, the white man, Vaughn. Not Chante. No, never Chante.

75. That Dr. Peerwani stated that in his opinion, Greg Biggs died of hemorrhagic shock from fractures and bled to death.

Fucker bled to death. Over a period of days this bastard bled out lodged in this half-hearted murderer's windshield.

That due to the aforementioned information, your affiant has reason to believe and does believe that probable cause does exist for the arrest of Chante J. Mallard for the offense of Murder, committed agains Greg Glen Biggs.

Fry the bitch. This was in Texas. I wonder what the verdict was?



By the way, as I wrote this, I saw many parallels between this case and the cats of my past. Can you see them too? Can you see how I could have taken the cowardly path of Chante? Which is a better choice, I wonder? I have the answer, do you?

Raithere:
How amusing…
I know.

Neither are you due anything. You are no more original or special than the prostitute, what makes you think you are; grand thoughts, an occupation? Ha. And what are they worth as your corpse putrefies? As your grand being becomes fodder for worms, a feast for bacteria and mold? “Oh but she had great insight into our insignificance, grand visions of the self supreme.” But who is left that will care to remember your words? What value have they to me?
Miffed?

What value is being placed on Self when respect is so smeared on mankind it is able to promote socially, allowing the Negro a place in the office because he is Negro and not because he qualifies?
How valuable is self when its easy to hand it around like a pamphlet at some carnival so big its gone mad?
Never let it be said that posthumously a valiant Self mourns because no one mourns its corpse.
When Self becomes so valuable one guards it like a mother, it is because it is at a premium in a world where the individual is only a vessel for mass.
This Majestic Self is the last thing you will find mourning that others forgot- it only mourns that its been robbed of continuing its life Majestically.
Dwarfing yours.


Killing and murder? More masturbation. Life is frail and easily extinguished, “See I can piss in the sand!” a great revelation of power indeed.
Nice try.
Realization. Absurdity.

“Respect is a simple reflection of what each man feels entitled to, a narcissitic tool we call Ethics.
Mankind has become something like a room full of pompous women with big hair and neat makeup, walking around with a nose in the air intimidating the audiance into civility someone like Bundy picks one out in the bunch, looks her over for a while sniffing something not right, and then reaches out to pull her wig off in public.
This is the joke.
It is here when he begins laughing."- gendanken

You would not laugh.
And neither would your little brother Guthrie.


Rather an expression of a hobbled mind too filled with self-loathing, so bankrupt of self-worth… of any worth that it can find nothing within that might attract another’s attention. “I can kill therefore I am special” they all cry. They have nothing else to offer.
Rather more a sneering in contempt at those you feel cold, you blow the hot air on them you blow on your little brothers but look- they don't stir.
Its your little brother who's more likely to be the angsty teen on his skateboard smashing up mailboxes and kittens in order to prove himself angry.
Its your little brother, so kind by default he is lost in the powerful forces of anger.
Its your little brother that is likely to be the Angry White Teen- not the higher mind disciplined and reticent enough to absorb meaning from madness.

All morality is an expression of vanity. It stems from the self; there is nowhere else from which it could come. It exists to ennoble the self, to provide it with value and meaning. Respect is not something we owe to others; respect is that which we give to ourselves. “I have value therefore you have value” is all it means. Some would call down the Gods to give it validity but morality must precede the Gods, otherwise how do we know they are worthy? The self is indeed supreme but existing alone it has no value.

So what is it you have to offer and to whom?
But only when it is allowed to exist alone for a while does it have value.
No?

A mother goes rummaging through the boxes she keeps in the attic every Christmas. There she will find all the gifts she will give for the holidays to those she belittles- any trinket will do, she'll blow on each trinket, brushing the dust off and scribbling a name on each in her haste.
But the prize jewels she keeps in her bedroom, tucked away in neat velvet and were she to give one of her rubies away its to those she calls loved ones.
This, dear boy, *is* respect.
Not the shiny trinket the man on the street gives to you when he asks how your day was.
As if he fucking cares.

Vert:
By the way, as I wrote this, I saw many parallels between this case and the cats of my past. Can you see them too? Can you see how I could have taken the cowardly path of Chante? Which is a better choice, I wonder? I have the answer, do you?
Staying true to your word, to your self.
Not buckling to adversity, even if it was Gendanken throwing grenades on your platfrom.
Adhering to one's sanity, even at the cost of estrangement.



Interesting to see that the bitch's last name rhymes with Coward.

I really am stupid at times.
Its just hit me that the best way to check errors is to copy paste a post you've just finished into a word doc.


STUPID.

Yeah. But sometimes it doesn't catch them all. Or it suggests odd replacements that you miss if you're in a hurry. For instance, edibles for establish.

Staying true to your word, to your self.
Not buckling to adversity, even if it was Gendanken throwing grenades on your platfrom.
Adhering to one's sanity, even at the cost of estrangement.

Thank you, Gendy. That was a real compliment. Don't let it happen again. :D

Interesting to see that the bitch's last name rhymes with Coward.

Heh. I never realized that. Good call.

Miffed?No. I just like getting reactions.

How valuable is self when its easy to hand it around like a pamphlet at some carnival so big its gone mad?Public validation is flimsy at best. Ego mops it up and seems to leave little left over. Ask Kurt Cobain (sp?). Self-worth is something one has to find within.

This Majestic Self is the last thing you will find mourning that others forgot- it only mourns that its been robbed of continuing its life Majestically. Dwarfing yours.To what purpose? Come now; let’s take this road to its end. Somewhere along the way even narcissus needs be left behind.

Clinging to self, one lives in fear.

“Respect is a simple reflection of what each man feels entitled to, a narcissitic tool we call Ethics.Isn’t that what I just said to Nexus? But standing there, “majestically”, you’re beyond such trifling affectations of the ego. Yes?

“What a piece of work is man …”

If you understand the joke there’s no need to pull the wig, you’re already laughing. When you pull the wig the joke is over. It’s like watching the latter episodes of SNL, they keep hitting the joke and hitting it and hitting it until it becomes a grotesque thing, no longer funny. Bundy didn’t get the joke, it frightened him, he couldn’t relate. Why?

Rather more a sneering in contempt at those you feel cold, you blow the hot air on them you blow on your little brothers but look- they don't stir.Don’t you get it? It’s the same joke. You’re the same joke. So am I.

But the prize jewels she keeps in her bedroom, tucked away in neat velvet and were she to give one of her rubies away its to those she calls loved ones.
This, dear boy, *is* respect.No, it’s more vanity. Piss on rubies and piss on gold… give me crazy-lace agate and opals. Or do you like diamonds? Hoard away your precious rubies; dole them out with miserly precision hoping their value is somehow the greater. Respect lies not in the gift but in the intent of the giver.

As if he fucking cares.And how the fuck would you know? Did you ask? Or did you pass by with your scornful derision? “I don’t know him. Social mandate, public courtesy, vapid, vile and meaningless.” And often it is. But all he wanted was to acknowledge you as a person.

~Raithere

It is not so much action by the recipient that earns respect as interpretation of that action by the giver. It is, in the end, personal, as all things are really.Agreed.

Self-gratification. Sometimes masturbation is self-abuse. As is murder.It all depends, doesn’t it. Sometimes killing can be an expression of love as well.

And my point is that it can be. It can be very easy and very hard.Yes, I acknowledge that. Just not to the point where it becomes an accomplishment. It’s not so difficult that it makes the murderer special or important.

Hmm. Perhaps I have been using the improper usage of respect. A personalized respect that one gives to someone they look up to, rather than a general respect for life.I think the function is still much the same, it’s still a validation.

Heh. Yeah. But also no. I'm using respect in two different ways there. The first respect is a noun. It is the thing that is bestowed.I understand. Respect does not have to take any particular form; it may be expressed in a wide variety of ways, even antagonistically or violently.

Me neither. Not entirely. But, in the end it's true. If one never knows another then he is feral. There is little self, human self, in the feral. Those who have known the group but seperated lose themselves gradually. The memory of the group remains to reinforce their selves, but even so, it becomes dimmer by the day.I think there’s something to that, something about needing feedback to retain our sanity. I’m not sure that the self disappears though I think it just grows fuzzy around the edges. Rosa had something about 'needing the look of other eyes' but I didn't have time to keep up with it. Something about definition goes here too… it’s growing late and it’s been a hell of a day. Maybe I’ll have another thought on it tomorrow.

~Raithere

DAmmit, Raithere said what I'd have said if I was more "intelligent".
So, Gendanken, why do you want to pull the wig off? Why not just go and find another party thats more to your liking?

As for needing other people, the group, I would put it plainly as other people keep you on your toes, act as feedback, and provide something to measure yourself by. Plus all these other viewpoints that make the world do flip flops when they are revealed to you.
I wonder is that why I havnt seen Xev for a while, she got fed up being invulnerably correct all the time.

As for needing other people, the group, I would put it plainly as other people keep you on your toes, act as feedback, and provide something to measure yourself by. Plus all these other viewpoints that make the world do flip flops when they are revealed to you.

We need other people so that we can pursue language, among other things.
(Language, as we know from other threads, is crucial.)

It’s not so difficult that it makes the murderer special or important.

Agreed. Perhaps self-important. But that's another matter. I don't really think that Gendanken is talking about validating the murderer. She's not saying that murderers are special or important because of their actions. It's more about the attitude of the herd. This attitude which murderers move away from.

I think the function is still much the same, it’s still a validation.

Yes. But a validation for a generalization rather than an individual. Perhaps this is the problem? Hmm.

Rosa had something about 'needing the look of other eyes' but I didn't have time to keep up with it.

I know. I was a major contributor to that thread.

DAmmit, Raithere said what I'd have said if I was more "intelligent".

That's what they all say. ;)

As for needing other people, the group, I would put it plainly as other people keep you on your toes, act as feedback, and provide something to measure yourself by. Plus all these other viewpoints that make the world do flip flops when they are revealed to you.

This, again, was the point of discussion in Rosa's Look of Other Eyes thread. As she just stated, language is crucial to this relationship among other factors.

Agreed. Perhaps self-important. But that's another matter. I don't really think that Gendanken is talking about validating the murderer. She's not saying that murderers are special or important because of their actions. It's more about the attitude of the herd. This attitude which murderers move away from.I’m not familiar with the history behind the thread so I’m only responding to what has taken place here.

It seems to me that she is attempting to validate it on some level, that such murders are an expression of contempt for humanity or society. I don’t see it. Not in serial killers anyway. I’m no expert but from what I do understand they do not operate from an above normal understanding of social interaction. Instead it’s typically quite the opposite; they are all but incapable of normal interactions. Serial murder is not an expression of independence from the herd (except perhaps on rare occasion) but a frustrated attempt to join. She's thinking Hannibal when most are the Red Dragon.

Yes. But a validation for a generalization rather than an individual. Perhaps this is the problem? Hmm.No, I still think it’s a validation of the self. Just on a more basic level.

~Raithere

Guthrie:
DAmmit, Raithere said what I'd have said if I was more "intelligent".
So, Gendanken, why do you want to pull the wig off? Why not just go and find another party thats more to your liking?
Atta boy!!
That's right, punch that little fist in the air from behind Raithere- I can see you sucking that fucking thumb from here.
Stupid chimp.
'Caught me on a bad day, Caliban.

Raithere:

Funny, funny. We're saying the same things aren't we? Depreciating human life down to its worth, quintessence of dust.
One only wonders at the ridicule- looks lika ya only wanna pull on my thong, huh?
If that is the case then never use Shakespeare against me:
Isn’t that what I just said to Nexus? But standing there, “majestically”, you’re beyond such trifling affectations of the ego. Yes?

“What a piece of work is man …”


Yes, what piece of work asked the man in his melancholy.
The same man that quipped conscience is what makes cowards of us all*.
The same man who on introspection looked on mankind and scribbled out his formula: one part wisdom, three parts coward to describe its spineless mechanics..
He sayz 'what piece of work is man' , describing his splendor that in his laughter knew would go to maggots.
But speak further wise one! 'Use every man after his desert, and who shall scape whipping? Use them after your honor and dignity. The less they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty"

And they deserve squat, only their employment in one's utility.
Like I'm doing you to illustrate my handle on Shakespeare and you doing me to get a reaction.
Why?
Men, according to another melancholiac, are usurpers and tyrants
Man- "full of ambition, an envious emulator of every man's good parts, a secret and villainous contriver against me his natural brother. Therefore use discretion. I had as lief you did break his neck as his finger..."
Yes, what piece of work is man. We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us.

To what purpose? Come now; let’s take this road to its end. Somewhere along the way even narcissus needs be left behind.

Clinging to self, one lives in fear.

I doubt you'd call gardening clinging.

Respect lies not in the gift but in the intent of the giver.

No fucking shit, asswipe.

And how the fuck would you know? Did you ask? Or did you pass by with your scornful derision? “I don’t know him. Social mandate, public courtesy, vapid, vile and meaningless.” And often it is. But all he wanted was to acknowledge you as a person.
Tell me this the next time you have some Christian busy body all up in your beeswax telling you 'stories'.
What you people shed on each other as respect and courtesy in so many ounces of chit chat and hyperbolized indifference is the reasons for the that bottomless pits we call 'personalities' nowadays.
FUCK YOU ALL.


*Rosa, stroke of brilliance. You put me in a Shakespearean mood again.

Serial murder is not an expression of independence from the herd (except perhaps on rare occasion) but a frustrated attempt to join. She's thinking Hannibal when most are the Red Dragon.

Hysterical.
I'm pointing out the devouring guilt unleashed within the killer, consequential to a state of mind that has amplfied the value of human life.

Shooting blanks thinking I imagine all of them Hannibals, considering the rampant senility in our penal system.
For every Kemper and Hannibal, there are millions of proles killing for beer.

I think "respect" is merely indicative of would-be unbalanced forces coming to equilibrium. Evolution commands "you must survive" at both a macro and micro level. "Respect" to me, is an obvious requisite of both once population density reaches a level where groups must either "respect" or risk not surviving. As we learn to be better and better at survival, words like "respect" become necessary to describe the balance between individuals that allows for survival of the group with which they associate themselves. At least that's what I've been pondering.

So respect can be viewed as a luxury if you wish, or a burden, or however... but none of it really matters, as it is simply a necessity for people to coexist in the current context. It can certainly be forgone if you're willing to take the associate risks. Personally, I find it beautiful in general and use it in varying degrees. Take a sloth like truthseeker for instance. I have zero respect for that boy on an intellectual level, but I wouldn't kill him or anyone else unless circumstances demanded it. Perhaps ultimately that is selfish, as I do not want the trauma of taking another person's life permanently carved into my brain.

"Respect" to me, is an obvious requisite of both once population density reaches a level where groups must either "respect" or risk not surviving. As we learn to be better and better at survival, words like "respect" become necessary to describe the balance between individuals that allows for survival of the group with which they associate themselves. At least that's what I've been pondering.
But does survival entail hypercivilty?
Does it have to mean human life becomes so invaluable we are forced to be equal?
No one born equal yet made equal with our cute Constitutions, yet we've survived thousands of years under infrastructures not as numbed down as this one.

Don't you feel respect generalized into a politeness only captures the dependence on other's acceptance that we find in the hypercivil? As if they are people starved.
Like...Invert.

Ain't that right, Verty?

Don't you feel respect generalized into a politeness only captures the dependence on other's acceptance that we find in the hypercivil? As if they are people starved.
Like...Invert.

Ain't that right, Verty?

Interesting. We're back to this then, are we? Strange the difference between this statement and this one:

Staying true to your word, to your self.
Not buckling to adversity, even if it was Gendanken throwing grenades on your platfrom.
Adhering to one's sanity, even at the cost of estrangement.

Almost as though one is contradicting oneself. I wonder why? Hmmm?

But, this thread seems to be one attack upon me after another. I've become the test subject. Another attempt at beating your 'conscience' into me? Or am I just your punching bag when all others fail you?


You miss the whole point of my way of dealing with people. I offer politeness at first to those I wish to invite into discussion. It doesn't behoove conversation to lash out at someone. It doesn't allow that person to show their true colors. Although, I think you feel that it does. That because the action someone takes after you punch them in the nose causing blood to flow it truth that you feel that is their essential character? I'm afraid not. In fact, it is a truth but not the whole truth. And not a useful truth in intellectual conversation.

Now, you've just punched me in the nose and if this were our first conversation, I might just say fuck you, bitch. And move on. No need to listen to Gendanken's rudeness anymore (a path taken by many I might add). But, I have come to know you, I feel and I know your temperament. I am able to take your rudeness now and not be turned away by it. Why? I'd guess because because we have progressed into a form of loyalty. Where I can strike you and you can strike me and we can still maintain civil relations. We have progressed beyond such simplistic judgements of the other's self.

Ain't that right, Squirrel?



But, the thing is that this politeness that I show upon initial contact is only a means of ascertaining the others worth. It is being open to them long enough to determine whether the relationship should proceed to respect or disdain. And once that judgement is made (either way) then politeness is no longer required.

In the case of respect, one might still be polite. Or one might be crude. Calling you a fucking moody twat, for example. Now, if I had first met you that might just offend you and send you flying off the handle. But, I feel that we respect each other well enough that we are able to converse at such levels without damaging our relationship. Of course, I could always be wrong, but that's always a risk we take.

Or in the case of disdain, one might just show sheer contempt. Or, one might still show politeness. Because politeness is not always a friendly thing. Sometimes politeness can be cold and used as a weapon. I've popped a few windbags in my time with politeness. It's always such a thrill to see them falter and fail to that small quiet voice. It drai