...does that mean we have to stop eating them?? I jest. Actually, I think the article should have been titled Research Shows Dogs USE Language To Reason.German researchers have found a border collie named Rico who understands more than 200 words and can learn new ones as quickly as many children. Patti Strand, an American Kennel Club board member, called the report "good news for those of us who talk to our dogs."

"Like parents of toddlers, we learned long ago the importance of spelling key words like bath, pill or vet when speaking in front of our dogs," Strand said. "Thanks to the researchers who've proven that people who talk to their dogs are cutting-edge communicators, not just a bunch of eccentrics."

Mrs. Fish and I have always known that dogs could learn words, as our two hunting retrievers are kind of spooky this way (although they in no way approach the 200 word marker). My wife, however, is of the position that knowing and responding to these individual sounds is not an understanding of language - that it is more of a Pavlovian response. I, on the other hand, think that what the article describe is precisely understanding what language is; the dog has created an abstraction named: Toys, which he is able to map to a set of objects as a class (Toys) within which he has an empirical screen (have I seen this toy before) and then he closes the circle to make the abstraction into specific instructions. Additionally, what makes it not conditioning for us to relate a word to an object or feeling, but makes it so for a dog?

:m: Peace.

Additionally, what makes it not conditioning for us to relate a word to an object or feeling, but makes it so for a dog?


Perhaps we, though conditioned, are at least capable of contemplating, even altering, our own state, whereas the dog maintains no awareness of his conditioning?

Got a link to the article? This is kinda my field... I'd like to see what people are claiming here.

Yeah... sorry about that!
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040610/D83468OG0.html

Additionally, what makes it not conditioning for us to relate a word to an object or feeling, but makes it so for a dog?

I think we are conditioned, too. Well, if I say "Toy" to you, you won't fetch it and a dog will. You think of a toy, probably get an image of a toy in your head, maybe a specific toy for some psychological reason. Dog thinks of a toy and also fetches because it has been conditioned to fetch. I guess.

Do cats have similar abilities? I often find that if I meow to a cat it meows back. A kitty of mine bit me and I copied the sound it made when it was hurt; so next time he didn't bite me as viciously. So is it possible for humans to copy/learn cat language?

Wolf: yes, to some extent, but cats don't train linearly.

That is, cats get a kind of meta-training... sometimes they believe you and sometimes not.

Watch the cat do something you don't want him to do. Whack him on the ass.
Watch the cat do something you don't want him to do. Whack him on the ass.
Watch the cat do something you don't want him to do. Whack him on the ass.
Watch the cat do something you don't want him to do. Raise your hand and he runs off to some other spot and sits licking himself.

Does he stop doing the thing? No... but if he knows you're looking, he'll stop - and then pretend that he forgot what he was doing. Approach him and the pleading look appears in his eyes - "You can't punish me now! I'm not doing it anymore and that wouldn't be fair!"

I have a friend who never beats her cat. Ever. Even if the cat is ripping everything apart, nobody hits her. I know people use words to get the cat to stop doing something. Not sure what Americans say in such cases, but Russians say something like "bris" or "ksh". It works. May be because that's similar to the cat's hissing.
Another friend I have lectures her cat and waves the index finger. Works well, too. And yes, a look is enough.

Geez, whitewolf, you make that sound unusual. I didn't think physical punishment ever worked on cats. I have also trained my cat to react to a hissing sound to stop what she is doing. Plus, she knows the words bird, mouse, the phrase "get the dot" (to go find the laser pointer dot), and, of course, her name. She also has several sounds she makes for specific things, like cat language. There is a sound for flying things, another for "I'm hungry", and another for "dammit you're home late!".

Do cats have similar abilities? I often find that if I meow to a cat it meows back. A kitty of mine bit me and I copied the sound it made when it was hurt; so next time he didn't bite me as viciously. So is it possible for humans to copy/learn cat language?It's hard to imagine how communication beyond the most basic level ("Stay away from MY kill") could be of much use to a non-social species. So my amateur opinion would be that cats don't have the ability.

Cats are not social creatures. After 8,000 years of selective breeding, they've learned to tolerate each other's presence without completely killing each other so they can live the easy life of a domestic animal, but they're not social like wolves/dogs, who have always hunted in packs. They may seem social in captivity, but it's because of a phenomenon called "neoteny." Something about our relationship causes a switch to trip in their brain fairly often and revert to kittenhood. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that we care for them, provide their food, protect them from predators, give them a comfortable place to sleep for 20 hours every day, fill their space with caged birds and other fun amusements, and insist on making them play and cuddle. I don't know, just a wild guess. ^_^ Anyway, babies of many species are more social than adults, in order to avoid fighting too hard with their siblings, and cats act like babies around humans.

To the extent that a particular species has a rudimentary ability to communicate -- pain, fear, joy, etc. -- it seems likely that humans, with our much more elaborate vocal apparatus and a brain that can control it in minute detail, wouldn't have much trouble learning to mimic their sounds.

We've learned how to imitate the calls of game animals well enough to trick them into coming close enough to shoot them. Some people can do bird calls that even fool the birds -- and those have got to be the most difficult for humans if only because they're in a high register we can only hit by whistling.

I'm waiting for somebody to crack dolphin talk. That will be a challenge. Very likely a substantial data bandwidth, and they live in an environment so unlike ours that it's hard to imagine what they're even talking about.

I'm also waiting VERY impatiently (forgive me if you've already read this remark of mine on about twelve other threads) for a deaf-mute couple to raise a baby chimpanzee from birth. That would be a much better environment for mastering ASL than a laboratory or a cage. There's a raging controversy over whether Koko and Washoe are really "speaking" in ASL or merely mimicking gestures. The researchers and the disbelievers are all hearing people. I'll bet people who communicate exclusively in sign language could decide definitively whether "their baby" chimp is talking or just waving his hands cleverly. And ain't nobody gonna argue with THEIR findings!

the dog has created an abstraction named: Toys, which he is able to map to a set of objects as a class (Toys) within which he has an empirical screen (have I seen this toy before) and then he closes the circle to make the abstraction into specific instructions.

Once I saw evidence that certain types of parrots can do what you describe above even though they have such tiny brains, nothing about animal intelligence can suprise me anymore. It REALLY underlines to me how little we know about how brains work.

Yeah, I saw the parrot thing too. It really surprised me. I always thought birds were... well... bird-brained. :p It was the Amazon Grey parrot. I don't remember how many words it knew. But it's trainer would hold up a tray with several items on it. She'd ask which one's green? Which one's soft? Things like that. I think she had one parrot really good at it, and another that she was working on.

yep, thats the show. It's really incredible, the little I knew of the brain before that told me a birds brain should not be able to do that. It's like a grasshopper doing long division, WTF?

You may be able to see another example which I saw when I was growing up in a house full of dogs and people. Watch the family dogs eyes as the family interacts with each other. Mom in the kitchen cooking, tells son… Go tell your dad blah blah blah. Watch the dogs eyes as the kid head out to do this. The dog looks to where dad is. The dog may follow the whole conversation this way, laying there watching his/her family interact. This doesn’t always happen of course. And its not always just watching. Sometimes the dog will beat the kid to dads side. Another thing to watch for: Watch when mom says “tell your dad supper is ready” the dog will beat the whole family to the table. Go get your sister is another. See if the dog goes to the door if the sister is outside, or to another spot in the house as close as the dog can get. If you see this in your dog, you will see a lot more examples in other ways too. Nobody I know trains their dog to do these things.

BTW, dogs are against doorknobs (in general), they prefer door levers. Bad thing about door levers, you cant ever get the dog to shut the door behind them and they are always letting the kids out to play.