http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

International borders are never completely just. But the degree of injustice they inflict upon those whom frontiers force together or separate makes an enormous difference — often the difference between freedom and oppression, tolerance and atrocity, the rule of law and terrorism, or even peace and war.

The most arbitrary and distorted borders in the world are in Africa and the Middle East. Drawn by self-interested Europeans (who have had sufficient trouble defining their own frontiers), Africa's borders continue to provoke the deaths of millions of local inhabitants. But the unjust borders in the Middle East — to borrow from Churchill — generate more trouble than can be consumed locally.

While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region's comprehensive failure isn't Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.

The Middle East today:

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/5421/afjpetersmapbeforegy9.th.jpg (http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afjpetersmapbeforegy9.jpg)

The Middle East as the US imagines it:

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8585/afjpetersmapafterij7.th.jpg (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afjpetersmapafterij7.jpg)


What do you think?

While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region's comprehensive failure isn't Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.

Oh great. Let's blame whitey and not the degenerate, bloodthirsty barbarians and their equally depraved religion.

you are asking the wrong crowd sam. alot of these posters will hate the idea based soley on the fact the US is behind it.

it isn't for me to decide nor the US but the people of the ME.
how would YOU draw the borders sam?

Oh great. Let's blame whitey and not the degenerate, bloodthirsty barbarians and their equally depraved religion.
islam isn't the only 'depraved' religion. how many witches were murdered in the name of christianity? i wonder how many innocent people have died for the sake of one's religion. it isn't just islam.

Thank God for Western Secularism, eh?

Oh great. Let's blame whitey and not the degenerate, bloodthirsty barbarians and their equally depraved religion.

Its copy pasted from the article. :rolleyes:

Political resolutions and increased tolerance of differences is what's needed, not arbitrary redrawing of maps.
International borders are never completely just.
Quite. It's true that the map was drawn up arbitrarily to suit European interests - but can anyone come up with a fairer, universally-acceptable solution? One that will put an end to the current conflicts? I think not. Peace only broke out in Ireland when the people realised that a redrawing of the map was never going to happen, and that they had to put aside their differences and learn to live with what they had. Redrawing borders just swaps one set of angry, dissatisfied people for another - yes?

you are asking the wrong crowd sam. alot of these posters will hate the idea based soley on the fact the US is behind it.

it isn't for me to decide nor the US but the people of the ME.
how would YOU draw the borders sam?

No idea Leo.

But I wonder how they see it happening.

Will the countries roll over in agreement?

Political resolutions and increased tolerance of differences is what's needed, not arbitrary redrawing of maps.

Quite. It's true that the map was drawn up arbitrarily to suit European interests - but can anyone come up with a fairer, universally-acceptable solution? One that will put an end to the current conflicts? I think not. Peace only broke out in Ireland when the people realised that a redrawing of the map was never going to happen, and that they had to put aside their differences and learn to live with what they had. Redrawing borders just swaps one set of angry, dissatisfied people for another - yes?

Except for the food fetish Red, I have yet to think of any occasion where I disagree with you.

i've noticed after printing and comparing the two maps the following:
these countries borders are unchanged
1. kuwait
2. qatar
3. u.a.e.
4. oman

why is that?

Food fetish!?!?

According to the article these are the winners and losers

Winners —

Afghanistan, Arab Shia State, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Free Baluchistan, Free Kurdistan, Iran, Islamic Sacred State, Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen


Losers —

Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, West Bank

Will the countries roll over in agreement?
are you kidding? humans do not like change for one.
for another there is going to be power struggles over who gets what.
basicly it's going to be "mommy, mommy, johnny got more than me !"

Food fetish!?!?

umm yeah, it's an old story with chicken soup and beef stew.

Ha. Yes, I vaguely remember that..

you have iran winning and losing.

as far as the unchanged i mentioned they do not show any changes on either of the maps.

are you kidding? humans do not like change for one.
for another there is going to be power struggles over who gets what.
basicly it's going to be "mommy, mommy, johnny got more than me !"

And I cannot see Saudi Arabia parting with Mecca and Medina

Think of their revenue from the Haj every year!

And the loss of face.

you have iran winning and losing.

as far as the unchanged i mentioned they do not show any changes on either of the maps.

What is their relationship with the US?

What is their relationship with the US?
man you are asking the wrong person 'cause i don't know.
the only thing that comes to mind is oil.

man you are asking the wrong person 'cause i don't know.
the only thing that comes to mind is oil.

I mean how good is their relationship with the US?

I mean how good is their relationship with the US?
iran? you are asking the wrong person cause i do not keep up on the ME.

the only thing i know about it is the names of a few countries and a little about the culture, and not much of that.

According to the Institute for Research Middle Eastern Policy (a pro-Saudi think tank which tries to emphasize the importance of Saudi money to the United States), in February 2003 total worldwide Saudi investment was at least $700 billion. Sixty percent of the Saudi investments were in the United States, so the Saudis had about 420 billion invested in the U.S.—

pretty good, i would say.

pretty good, i would say.

I meant the four countries whose borders will be unchanged.

What is their relationship with the US?

Iran and the US are officially BFF.
Everyone knows that. Come on now.

http://www.thecitizenguide.com/images/bff-bracelet.jpg


Anyway. That article is just some military shmoe's mental masturbation, yes? Some of you are talking like it's a real plan drawn up by the US government to be acted upon...
New World Order?

I'd like my New World Order super-sized. With a coke.
No pickles.

BFF? what is BFF?

Iran and the US are officially BFF.
Everyone knows that. Come on now.

http://www.thecitizenguide.com/images/bff-bracelet.jpg


Anyway. That article is just some military shmoe's mental masturbation, yes? Some of you are talking like it's a real plan drawn up by the US government to be acted upon...
New World Order?

I'd like my New World Order super-sized. With a coke.
No pickles.
sorry, you must have pickles.
we place the tracking device in the pickles.

errr......the "sunshine happiness medical information chip" is what i meant to say.

BFF? what is BFF?
best friends forever.

I meant the four countries whose borders will be unchanged.
those are all saudi countries aren't they?
according to moores movie about 9/11 the saudis own about 10%(?) of US interests.

edit
after looking at the maps again i noticed they all border the persian gulf.

Iran and the US are officially BFF.
Everyone knows that. Come on now.

http://www.thecitizenguide.com/images/bff-bracelet.jpg

Anyway. That article is just some military shmoe's mental masturbation, yes? Some of you are talking like it's a real plan drawn up by the US government to be acted upon...
New World Order?

I'd like my New World Order super-sized. With a coke.
No pickles.


I don't like pickles either.

It is one of the topics floating around on the blogs.

Do you know anything about it?

I don't like pickles either.

I like sweet pickles...

It is one of the topics floating around on the blogs.

Do you know anything about it?

Pickles?
Or this repartitioning of the Middle East thing?

If the former... then the blogs must be slow this week.

If the latter... I don't think it's any of my business. Nor the business of the US. Or of any European nation. Or of anyone but those directly involved.

I was just thinking about this the other day. The irony of Iraq turning into a muslim state (that is, voted sharia law or whatever). And the fact that the US is the one that is encouraging their right to choose.

I'm sure that the US government is rethinking several of its decisions in the matter. And are even questioning whether or not they should intervene to prevent a government from being formed that is not in line with the US ideal.

My feeling is that... it's not my fucking business.
They want sharia law? Fuck 'em. Let em have it.
They want their women dressed in burkas and outlaw singing and music.
Fuck 'em. Let 'em have it.

Let them have exactly what they want. Unhindered and unfettered by foreign concerns.
Let them sink or swim on their own merits.

It's like Cuba.
Castro would probably not have stayed in power so long if the US hadn't thrown a huge shit fit and held onto that embargo for so many years.
We supported his rule by giving him an enemy to unite his people against.

Same goes for the middle east.

Let them do what they want.
Let's get off the oil tit and move on with our lives.


The problems with repartitioning of the borders over there is that there will be lots of bloodshed in the process, methinks.
And if the foreign powers stay out of it, it'll be muslim vs muslim.
And that's fine. Let them kill each other for awhile.
Things like that have a tendency to expand though... which wouldn't be good for neighboring areas.
Such as India. And Europe.

We'd be cool over here in the US though. As long as we could keep our meddling fingers out of the pot.


What it all comes down to is this:

Now it's Istanbul not Constantinople.
Now it's Istanbul not Constantinople.
But a long time ago it was Constinople.
Why did Constantinople get the works?
It's nobody's business but the Turks...

You'll never get everyone in the Middle East to accept anything that's proposed by anyone, at any-fuckin'-time. The level of dissent and segragationalist attitude is even more than what's in Europe today! ....European nations can't agree on anything, either!

But not to worry ....as I see it now, pretty soon all the fuckin' Muslims will move to the USA and take over through sheer force of fucking-power ...making so many more fuckin' Muslims that the rest of us will be pushed into the sea.

Baron Max

Baron Max

Both Europe and the Muslims can agree that they don't like Americans.

I wonder why that is.

Both Europe and the Muslims can agree that they don't like Americans.

Well, that's obviously false. Lots and lots of Europeans and Muslims have gotten filthy rich agreeing with Americans and American companies. Seems that some of them like us a lot, huh?

Baron Max

They like our money. That sort of love isn't transitive.

They like our money.

So ....is that to say that you admit that Muslims and Europeans are either hippo-crits or liars? Or perhaps both at the same time? Interesting.

Baron Max

Baron, if I like your daughter, does that mean I like you?

Baron, if I like your daughter, does that mean I like you?

Well, geez, .....that sure fits right into this discussion, don't it?! ...LOL!

Baron Max

Answer the question, old man.

The question has virtually no bearing on anything in this discussion!

Europeans and Muslims who take US money for goods and services, while hating all Americans, is nothing short of hippo-critical and/or blatant lying.

What does my daughter have to do with anything???????

Baron Max

Baron, if I like your daughter, does that mean I like you?

Mr. Hankey. The Christmas Poo.
He loves me.
I love you.
Therefore, vicariously, he loves you...

You honestly cannot see the difference between taking someone's money and liking them?

I can see the difference between liking your daughter and liking you. Now apply this differentiation of nouns to the following:

Muggers and the people they mug.
Venture capitalists and people of the companies they hostiley take over.
The proprietors of Mom&Pop stores that are forced to sell their stores to Wal-Mart due to competition.
Young women that marry rich old men.

Do you not see how a love for money doesn't necessarily translate to a love for the source of cash?
How about this one:
Money can't buy you love.

It's not a transitive thing.

Nice try, Roman, but you're not worth wasting my time anymore.

Baron Max

lol!

You lay defeated!

Look:

I love A
A loves B

Do I now love B?

What if I hate my employer, but I'm well paid. Does that make me a hypocrite or a guy who likes a big paycheck?

Yes.
Vicariously.
Did my song mean nothing to you?

Heathen.

Your song reminded me of brown stains. Stinky brown smears.

Oh great. Let's blame whitey and not the degenerate, bloodthirsty barbarians and their equally depraved religion.Oh come on dude. Lots of things are complicated enough for more than one party to be at fault. Surely you've heard of the legal doctrines of "contributory negligence" and "attractive nuisance," for example.

The colonial powers made it a frelling sport to see how badly they could divide up tribes in order to keep them fighting among each other instead of against the occupying forces. In Africa, which was still in the Neolithic, the tribes were relatively small and numerous, and they could put pieces of ten or twelve of them together in one artificial "nation," and then complain about how the "barbaric Africans" with nothing in common but mutual distrust could never learn to live together in harmony.

Tribes were larger and there weren't so many different ones in the Middle East, where vast areas of civilization had been established for millennia. Still, a clever overlord could easily put fragments of Shia Arabs, Sunni Arabs, Kurds, Palestinians and other fractious Arab, Turkic and Persian Muslim tribes together in artificial "nations," and then dump a couple of million Jewish refugees into the mess just in case it got too peaceful.

The Cold War exacerbated it. The USA and the USSR shamelessly treated the entire region as a big chessboard, having exactly zero concern for the welfare or sensibilities of the people who happened to be living there. The democratic cradle of Judeo-Christian culture versus the heathen Saracens--as we were taught to see the conflict over here. Or the progressive modern Muslim states against Zionist capitalism--as the Russian children had it explained to them.

Some of the leaders of the Mideast who in the aftermath of the Cold War are generally regarded as despots who kept their people down--including the Shah, Saddam, the Taliban and the House of Saud--received massive U.S. financial and military support. The Taliban was virtually the product of hands-on assembly by the CIA.

I have no quarrel with your characterization of Islam, as long as you're fair and apply that description to all three of the patriarchal, monotheistic religions of Abraham that suppress the human spirit until it explodes periodically in orgies of ignorant, intolerant violence. But that does not acquit the West of its heavy responsiblity for making the situation in the Middle East even worse than it needed to be.

leopold99
islam isn't the only 'depraved' religion. how many witches were murdered in the name of christianity? i wonder how many innocent people have died for the sake of one's religion. it isn't just islam.

Anthropologists who study this phenomenon note that accusations of evil magic against people living on the fringe of society predate Christianity and can be found on every inhabited continent.

The time and date of the last execution of a witch, if I remember correctly that was 190 years ago in Germany, but as far back as the 1700reds, with the rise and influence of rationalism in Europe, the anti-witch hysteria started to die out, England executed their last Witch in 1716, the last witch in Poland was executed in 1792, the last Witch was executed in Switzerland in 1792, the last Witch in Europe was executed in 1793, and the Church finally completed the reformation and no longer condoned the execution of people of other faiths or religions, so you are using your prejudice, to come to a false premise, to use something from history that no longer occurs to justify a group of people today killing in the name of their religion? Twisted.

So Christianity supposedly ended a one thousand eight hundred year period of "depravity" a mere 213 years ago. That sure makes me feel secure.

Well when has a Witch been executed lately, in the Western World?, when has the last gay been killed in the West and the perpetrator not been prosecuted?, when has a adulterer been stoned in the west?, when has a woman in the west had to produce 4 male witness's to her rape to avoid being hung as a adulteress?, when has a female child been hung for being abused by her uncle and having the effrontery to accuse him of such?, when has a woman been murdered for honor of her family in the west and the perpetrator not been prosecuted, tell me when a person in the west has ever killed a person for words and not been prosecuted for the act? This stuff happens daily in the Muslim world, and the persons who do so are praised as religious, and righteous people? all you do when you try to equate something that happened 300 years ago, that is no longer tolerated in the western world is be an apologist for the scum who do these things, and that makes you no better than they are, were is the equivalence in today's world for the practices of the Islam, and Islamic terrorist?

i imagine you would "cure" their culture with bombs and bullets, buffalo?
you bitch and moan, but i have yet to hear a single non-violent (and reasonable) suggestion from you.