Some Neanderthals were probably redheads, a DNA study has shown.

Writing in Science journal, a team of researchers extracted DNA from remains of two Neanderthals and retrieved part of an important gene called MC1R.

In modern people, a change - or mutation - in this gene causes red hair, but, until now, no one knew what hair colour our extinct relatives had.

By analysing a version of the gene in Neanderthals, scientists found that they also have sported fiery locks.

"We found a variant of MC1R in Neanderthals which is not present in modern humans, but which causes an effect on the hair similar to that seen in modern redheads," said lead author Carles Lalueza-Fox, assistant professor in genetics at the University of Barcelona.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7062415.stm

Interesting. In the other thread, people claimed that they couldn't tell the difference between a black man and white man using DNA, now you're suggesting that they can even tell the color of the hair?

In the other thread, people were claiming that there's nothing in DNA that controls intelligence, yet here they can tell the color of a man's hair? Hmm? Maybe we should look harder for that intelligence gene, huh?

Baron Max

We are all descendants of Bushmen and pygmies; it's in our DNA.

"one small wavelet from Africa lapped up onto the shores of western Asia. All non-Africans share markers carried by those first emigrants, who may have numbered just a thousand people. "
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0603/feature2/index.html

...team of researchers extracted DNA from remains of two Neanderthals and retrieved part of an important gene called MC1R.

In modern people, a change - or mutation - in this gene causes red hair, but, until now, no one knew what hair colour our extinct relatives had....

do orangutangs have this MC1R gene?

do orangutangs have this MC1R gene?

I know humans have the melanocortin 1 receptor gene, I assume orangutans must have a variation of it.

The genetics of red hair, discovered in 1997, appears to be associated with the melanocortin-1 receptor, which is found on chromosome 16. Red hair is associated with fair skin color and sensitivity to ultraviolet light. The MC1R recessive gene, which gives people red hair and fair skin, is also associated with freckles, though it is not uncommon to see a redhead without freckles. Eighty percent of redheads have a MC1R gene variant,[11] and the prevalence of these alleles is highest in Scotland and Ireland. The alleles that code for red hair occur close to the alleles that impact skin color, so it seems that the phenotypic expression for lighter skin and red hair are interrelated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

I know humans have the melanocortin 1 receptor gene, I assume orangutans must have a variation of it.

Is there one of those thingies for black, kinky hair and broad, flat nostrils?

And 'spose there's one of those thingies for intelligence, too?

Baron Max

Please don't troll Max.

Is there one of those thingies for black, kinky hair and broad, flat nostrils?

And 'spose there's one of those thingies for intelligence, too?

Baron Max

can you touch intelligence?

can you touch intelligence?

...LOL! :D

Thanks, that was a good one, Gus. :D

Baron Max

We are all descendants of Bushmen and pygmies; it's in our DNA.


LOL.

Bushmen and pygmies are not extinct.

can you touch intelligence?


No.

But you can measure it.

Some Neanderthals were probably redheads, a DNA study has shown.


This demonstrates that Neanderthals had pale skin.

I wonder just how far back pale skin goes?

No.

But you can measure it.

ja
i doubt if that is under dispute
just the methodologies
yours to be precise
leroy

LOL.

Bushmen and pygmies are not extinct.

That doesn't mean we can't be their descendants.

Interesting. In the other thread, people claimed that they couldn't tell the difference between a black man and white man using DNA, now you're suggesting that they can even tell the color of the hair?Red hair happens to be controlled by a single gene. Not all attributes are that simple to figure out. Today it costs about $100,000 to analyze the DNA of one individual. Perhaps as computing power becomes cheaper and faster, after a few more decades of analyzing DNA with massively parallel processing computers they'll figure out what combination of ten or twenty genes controls skin color and what combination of a hundred thousand genes affects intelligence.

If we're lucky, by then we will have finished mixing our populations so we'll all just be different shades of brown and there won't be black skin and white skin to make such a damn fuss about any more. Like the current state of affairs everywhere in the Western Hemisphere except the USA, Canada and Haiti.In the other thread, people were claiming that there's nothing in DNA that controls intelligence, yet here they can tell the color of a man's hair?It's a little too politically correct to claim that genetics has no correlation with intelligence. Obviously there's something in the tiny portion of our DNA which is different from chimpanzee DNA that makes us a lot more intelligent than chimpanzees. Even within different populations of the same species, as a dog breeder I can assure you that the average IQ of Lhasa Apsos is considerably lower than poodles. However that is not natural selection. Poodles were deliberately bred to be curious and intelligent, and Lhasas were deliberately bred to be stubborn and independent. Nobody's doing that with human breeding.Hmm? Maybe we should look harder for that intelligence gene, huh?The brain is a complicated organ and intelligence can hardly be one gene.[The Wikipedia quote about red hair correlating with low melanin and sensitivity to sunlight.]That makes sense, since the Neanderthal population we're acquainted with lived up north. The Neander Thal or Valley in Germany, to be precise.Please don't troll Max.Max is as sharp as a tack and very well educated, but he gets a big kick out of being a iggerant rube from Texas when it suits him. Perhaps Texans want us to believe they all play that game, so we'll think Bush isn't really as dumb as he acts and talks. He certainly knows that intelligence is a more complicated attribute than skin or hair color and probably involves a whole lot more genes.Bushmen and pygmies are not extinct.Neither are grizzly bears, and polar bears are descended from them. And unlike the various populations of modern humans, those bears are two different species.

That doesn't mean we can't be their descendants.

Neither are grizzly bears, and polar bears are descended from them. And unlike the various populations of modern humans, those bears are two different species.

The word descendant always has a temporal meaning, ie, we are not just separated by space but time as well. Since we exist contemporaneously with Bushmen and pygmies how can we be descended (exist in a different time) from them?

If we are descended from them it must be from earlier versions and not the ones currently alive today.

Perhaps you mean we share common ancestors?

The word descendant always has a temporal meaning, ie, we are not just separated by space but time as well. Since we exist contemporaneously with Bushmen and pygmies how can we be descended (exist in a different time) from them?

If we are descended from them it must be from earlier versions and not the ones currently alive today.

Perhaps you mean we share common ancestors?

'Common ancestors' implies the bushmen and pygmies of today are a different species then those we descended from. This is not true.
To descend from a people does not mean your forefather was the kid of the last pygmy alive... it just means that somewhere in history the two groups split up (not in an evolutionary way).

it just means that somewhere in history the two groups split up (not in an evolutionary way).


So you mean they were living together?

So you mean they were living together?

Yes, whatever the people we descended from at some point split up. Presumably some stayed put and the other group went away. This is how we 'diverged'.
Of course there were genetic changes along the way, and in that sense evolution played a role but not to the extent that we became a different species (like Grizzly's and Polar bears if you will).

No.

But you can measure it.

We can't even define intelligence adequately, let alone measure it.
What we measure is the ability to score in tests... ;)

Yes, whatever the people we descended from at some point split up. Presumably some stayed put and the other group went away. This is how we 'diverged'.
Of course there were genetic changes along the way, and in that sense evolution played a role but not to the extent that we became a different species (like Grizzly's and Polar bears if you will).

Let me get this right.

We were all living with Bushmen and pygmies.....I'm laughing now...this is funny.

Then for some reason we all went our separate ways?

Maybe the pygmies got sick of being fired out the cannon?

The Bushmen grew tired of being eaten by the lions?

Let me get this right.

We were all living with Bushmen and pygmies.....I'm laughing now...this is funny.

Then for some reason we all went our separate ways?

Maybe the pygmies got sick of being fired out the cannon?

The Bushmen grew tired of being eaten by the lions?

:confused:
We were bushmen man.. :shrug:

Have people around here got some sort of problem with REDHEADS!!!!!!

Not if they're well-behaved...

It's not in our genes to behave. We bad.

I'm saying nothing: refer to my comments in the thread on the "rise of feminism in Sciforums..."

There is very little that would pass for feminism here.

So... since there is a theory that Neanderthals interbred with homo sapiens, could it be that homo sapiens inherited red hair from the Neanderthals ?

If we're lucky, by then we will have finished mixing our populations so we'll all just be different shades of brown and there won't be black skin and white skin to make such a damn fuss about any more.

I'm sure that you've noticed that there's more characteristics of blacks than just the skin color. But you've also noticed that the more breeding that occurs between blacks and whites, the skin color is lighter, and the harsh facial features of blacks is soften to more like those of whites.

The issue is much more than just skin color. And if there's a gene for broad, flat nostrils and thick, flabby lips, then obviously when mixed with white genes, the white genes seem to prevail. As is probably the same with the intelligence gene(s).

Obviously there's something in the tiny portion of our DNA which is different from chimpanzee DNA that makes us a lot more intelligent than chimpanzees.

There ya' go! Thanks, Fraggle ...even tho' I had to dig through all those damned words you posted, I found it. You thought you could hide that in all those words, didn't you? :D

So, by the same reasoning, sub-Saharan blacks might well be less intelligent than European whites. And with such overwhelming evidence, it seem quite fair to say that ...even tho' y'all are quick to supply numerous excuses for the lack of black advancements.

Max is as sharp as a tack and very well educated, but he gets a big kick out of being a iggerant rube from Texas when it suits him.

That's a pretty nasty rumor, Fraggle, and you shouldn't pass on such distasteful rumors -- the idealistic, mamby-pamby, doo-gooder liberals around here will turn on you in a flash! :D

Baron Max

All humans are the same species, so any big variations are out of the question. Of course it could be that some groups are less intelligent than others but there is evidence for that whatsoever. And even if there was evidence... so what ? :shrug:

If we're lucky, by then we will have finished mixing our populations so we'll all just be different shades of brown and there won't be black skin and white skin to make such a damn fuss about any more. Like the current state of affairs everywhere in the Western Hemisphere except the USA, Canada and Haiti.


Fraggle,

The mixing of race means the mixing of culture.

That spells the death of science and our regression back to an instinctual mode of being.

All humans are the same species, so any big variations are out of the question.

You don't notice the huge variations of features between blacks and whites? The wide, flat nostrils? The thick, flabby lips? The heavy brow ridge? As well as the skin color? I'd call those pretty significant variations within the same species, wouldn't you?

And if that's true, then it could just as easily be true of their brain capacity and their intelligence.

Will it make a difference if we find out? Sure, then the whinny, wimpy liberals won't have to make so fuckin' many excuses for black behavior like crime and violence and other such behavior.

Baron Max

Insult deleted.

You don't notice the huge variations of features between blacks and whites? The wide, flat nostrils? The thick, flabby lips? The heavy brow ridge? As well as the skin color? I'd call those pretty significant variations within the same species, wouldn't you?

And if that's true, then it could just as easily be true of their brain capacity and their intelligence.

Will it make a difference if we find out? Sure, then the whinny, wimpy liberals won't have to make so fuckin' many excuses for black behavior like crime and violence and other such behavior.

Baron Max

I don't agree but I don't feel like discussing this stuff again. To each his own I guess.

Well, who's a chicken lipped, vulture beaked, pink headed, spotty, pasty, probably weedy, fish eyed piggy boy then?

There ya' go, Spud, ....good ol' fashioned bigotry, which is something we need more of in the world today. If you find something ugly, you should say so instead of hide behind some politically correct bullshit slogans.

And you were voted as being an intelligent member of the forum, tsk, tsk, tsk.

Impossible! If that was, indeed, the vote, then someone rigged it. :D

Baron Max

There ya' go, Spud, ....good ol' fashioned bigotry, which is something we need more of in the world today. If you find something ugly, you should say so instead of hide behind some politically correct bullshit slogans.



Oh dear!
Like I said it's a perspective thing.
But thanks, didn't realise I was being politically correct.

Can we please keep this on topic.

Thank you.

So... since there is a theory that Neanderthals interbred with homo sapiens, could it be that homo sapiens inherited red hair from the Neanderthals ?

Anyone ?

The word descendant always has a temporal meaning, ie, we are not just separated by space but time as well. Since we exist contemporaneously with Bushmen and pygmies how can we be descended (exist in a different time) from them? If we are descended from them it must be from earlier versions and not the ones currently alive today. Perhaps you mean we share common ancestors?No. Polar bears split off from grizzly bears less than 100,000 years ago, and grizzly bears did not die out. There was an ecological niche to fill and some grizzly bears with the right mutations plus the right combination of inherited traits migrated north to fill it. The ones who didn't have the mutation stayed further south.

I don't know where you read that we're descended from Bushmen and pygmies. DNA analysis is slow and expensive and I was not aware that they have analyzed that many human populations yet. Perhaps you simply mean that our ancestors were much smaller. Size is not entirely dictated by inherited genes. Larger women can give birth to larger babies, and babies of any size will grow larger with the proper nutrition and medical care. The average height of people in "the West" has increased by something like three or four inches (8-10cm) in the last century.I'm sure that you've noticed that there's more characteristics of blacks than just the skin color. But you've also noticed that the more breeding that occurs between blacks and whites, the skin color is lighter, and the harsh facial features of blacks is soften to more like those of whites. The issue is much more than just skin color. And if there's a gene for broad, flat nostrils and thick, flabby lips, then obviously when mixed with white genes, the white genes seem to prevail.That's how it looks to you as a white person. Have you discussed this with any black people or do they lock the door and turn off the porch light when they see you coming? They think that when black and white people intermarry, their children start to look more "normal" by their standards. Skin that doesn't look like it came off a plucked chicken, lips with some body to them, softer facial and less angular features, noses and cheekbones that don't look like lethal weapons.So, by the same reasoning, sub-Saharan blacks might well be less intelligent than European whites. And with such overwhelming evidence, it seem quite fair to say that ...even tho' y'all are quick to supply numerous excuses for the lack of black advancements.Apparently the rest of us aren't as awed as you are by your "overwhelming evidence." Progress in Africa was no slower than in the Americas, which were populated by all those East Asian immigrants who we all believe are smarter than just about anybody. But civilizations sprang up on the outskirts of Africa and they held the Africans back, while the Olmecs and Aztecs were left to invent civilization by their own wits. Unfortunately the Europeans eventually made it to the New World and pushed its aboriginal people back into the Stone Age so white people can say the same thing about the Indians that they say about Africans: stupid, no ambition, if they had any they wouldn't be living like they are. Yeah right.That's a pretty nasty rumor, Fraggle, and you shouldn't pass on such distasteful rumors -- the idealistic, mamby-pamby, doo-gooder liberals around here will turn on you in a flash!Your little game of playing dumb is well known.Fraggle, The mixing of race means the mixing of culture. That spells the death of science and our regression back to an instinctual mode of being.Well that's one hell of an extraordinary assertion. Would you please respect the scientific method and provide your extraordinary substantiation for it, or are you just trolling?

Why does it matter?? I'm assuming there's a reason, but what?

Yeah, red hair genes COULD have come from good olde Homo (Sapien) Neanderthalus, but the truth might be more complex than that (like the incidence of heamoglobin S -- which causes sickle cell -- in West Africa, the Middle East, and South India). Let's also not forget that there are also many (native) Australians with red hair, so this is not an exclusively European thing.

People, we are NOT all descendants of the Khoisan and Forest People (your "Bushmen and Pygmies") -- they are as modern as everyone else. Theirs is simply the oldest known genetic line (gone through the least bottle-necks), not the first. It's not like they stubbornly refused to evolve for tens of thousands of years while their children did.

Africa is the most culturally, linguistically, and genetically rich/varied place in the world. There is NO SUCH THING as a "typical" African (physique, culture, or religion), even below the Sahara. Even with skin colour, the Khoisan people are not dark brown but rather "copper" or tan/sand coloured. If one drives from Cape Town to Lagos, you'll come across more variation in the faces then you would if you were to drive from Greece to Ireland.

Personally, instead of brown, I envisage our ultra-mixed descendants as having golden coloured skin, walking with their chins up, and too embarrassed to even admit that the citizens of today's world were even their ancestors...

"A new, simplified family tree of humanity, published yesterday, has dealt a blow to those who contend that the enigmatic hominids known as Neanderthals intermingled with our forebears.
Neanderthals were a separate species to Homo sapiens, as anatomically modern humans are known, rather than offshoots of the same species..."

Read more (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23650353-30417,00.html)

Reanalyse of mitochondrial Cro-Magnon DNA casts further doubt on Neanderthal and human hybridisation.

Read more (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14325-first-europeans-shunned-neanderthal-sex.html)

Has anyone else noticed that redhead people often have a certain skull shape (and often small eyeballs) that makes them ALL look like their from the same massive family. My nephew, has like 5,000,000 twin brothers. (at least)