Hello,

As many of you have heard, the recent epidemic that has been passed in Tailand and pakistan is spreading via birds to humans (Also the earthquake is not helping the either). However, no person to person diseases have been passed. Why is this? Is it only a -chicken- to person connection? Are people just immune to it that they cannot recieve a second carrier illness? Also, when eating chicken, is it still as bad, can you get the disease if you cook the chicken/turkey/whatever, will it remove the carrying disease?

Post how you feel,

Joe

-------------------------------------

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/joeykid1292/JOESCIREL.jpg

I gather that you're talking about the bird flu. It's a difficult issue, but recent news says that it has yet arrived to Europe. Cases have been discovered in Romania and Turkey
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4358052.stm

with possible cases also in Greece and Macedonia. Rumours say that if the disease is able to attack humans, the death toll will be in the thousands. I have to admit that I'm a bit nervous about this issue

remember sars?

The H5N1 strain of "bird 'flu" is communicable from bird to human.

It is not possible to contract H5N1 by eating any bird, nor any of it's products, so long as the bird or the product is properly cooked.

As yet, there have been no reported cases of H5N1 communicating human to human, but should the virus mutate it is feared that this may become possible.

The virus lives in the faeces of infected birds and it's contact with the faeces or breathing in infected feaces dust that has caused the human deaths so far. If the virus mutates so that it is passed human to human, the death toll is predicted to be in the millions worldwide. The chief medical officer in England has stated that there would be at least 50000 deaths in England alone, but that is an underestimate in my opinion. It takes 6 months just to create a vaccine for a new strain of the virus so if it hits, well, just do the math.

There's a case of avian flu in the UK, but the fact that the parrot was in quarantine seems to grant to the contry the status of "disease-free"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4365956.stm

One of the procupations is that the birds, during their migratory course, could establish the strain in East Africa, where it could be rather difficult to control

Edit: the radio is informing about a new case in Croatia

Well, this is all pretty interesting, but......

What exactly can we do about it? And I don't mean ...what can our nation do, but what can WE, each individual, do about this horrid disease (that hasn't actually become a human disease yet)? Or should we all just bend over and kiss our asses goodbye?

Baron Max

Epidemics circulate throughout the animal kingdom all the time. If I remember right, not that long ago, canine distemper raged thru a seal lion population in Britain killing them by the thousands. A few years back it was feline distemper or leukimia that raged thru lion populations in africa. One of the more current is the horse flu that jumped to dogs and is circulating mainly thru the greyhound racing circuit. The parvo virus of the late 70s caused more damage to dogs than the horse flu and did infect alot of animals. Killed alot of puppies before a vaccine was created. There was alot of human contact with infected dogs at that time, but still no jump to humans there either.

Anyways, heres an article from feb 04 about a strain of avian flu in texas:
http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2004/Feb/24-801538.html

And a list of links at the same site which shows how many articles have been printed since just 2004:
http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/global_issues/bird_flu/bird_flu_archive.html

For a bit of perspective from WHO:

Avian influenza – situation in Thailand – update 35
20 October 2005
The Ministry of Public Health in Thailand has today confirmed its first case of human infection with H5N1 avian influenza since 08 October of last year. The patient, a 48-year old man from Kanchanaburi Province, developed symptoms on 13 October, was hospitalized on 17 October, and died on 19 October.

The man’s 7-year-old son developed respiratory symptoms on 16 October. He had assisted his father with defeathering of the diseased birds. Test results on the child, who is presently hospitalized, are pending.

Since the start of the outbreaks in Asia, Thailand has confirmed 18 cases, of which 13 have been fatal.

I dont think of the current events as an epidemic crisis and I am not losing any sleep over avian flu.

I did find this article interesting, but its not about avian flu:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/10/17/creutzfeldt.jakob.fear.ap/index.html
.

Well, this is all pretty interesting, but......

What exactly can we do about it? And I don't mean ...what can our nation do, but what can WE, each individual, do about this horrid disease (that hasn't actually become a human disease yet)? Or should we all just bend over and kiss our asses goodbye?

Baron Max

Eat lots of fresh garlic, take vitamins, dress warm - keep the immune system in a good shape.
Avoid public transport, just in case buy a few packs of some anti-viral drug (there are not that many of those around).

If it strikes with maximum power - stay at home or in some more remote place, stash food for 3 months,
they usually don't stay in one place longer than that.

Yes it is also in Europe with 3 confirmed cases in Turkey, Romania and Greece. i also read today that the first bird flu case was found in England.
My biggest scare is if this thing spreads (and probably will) to Africa then we can never control it again and many people there will die.
An the biggest scare is what if this virus evolves.

Of course it will spred to Africa! Where do you think those birds go for winter?
And the human-to-human would spread anyways.
Many people die there anyways, I don't think they'll notice bird flu among other problems they have.

An the biggest scare is what if this virus evolves.
Yes, that's a problem. Let's just hope that we can organize better international and national defences than in Europe during the black death.

Let's just hope that we can organize better international and national defences than in Europe during the black death.

Ya' know, the interesting thing that I keep hearing is how the public is outraged by even the suggestion that areas/people be quarantined if there's an outbreak in the USA. They don't want their liberties curtailed EVEN at the expense of the possible death of thousands/millions! How selfish is THAT?

And if the USA puts a quarantine into effect, the ACLU will raise all kinds of hell about limiting peoples' freedom of movement! Wow, I can hardly wait for the fun and games of THAT.

Baron Max

Well, then the reason for their deaths will be stupidity. Should write that in death certificates too.
Quarantine is a very logical and efficient way of human-to-human disease control.
Just need pump in medicine and supplies in the affected areas.

When in panic, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

Avatar, I take it that you know of historical examples of quarantines that worked?

Sure, the first one that is well known (maybe the best known) is in the UK at the time of the Black death there in the middle ages. There was a small village (sorry, forgot the name) that isolated themselves so that they don't spread the plague to other villages. They left money in pots filled with vinegar, and people from other villages brought there food. Those neighbouring villages weren't touched.
It is known that the black death spread through pests (fleas and rats) too, but I guess they (the people) then very lucky.
It was successful because all participated in it. If one gets out, it's all futile. So it would be hard to implement nowadays with our transportation and all, but it can be done if the area is small enough.
I'd suggest reverse quarantine though, i.e., isolate yourself. It's safer and there are more chances of success.
Especially works if the virus (or whatever) is human-to-human only.

The virus lives in the faeces of infected birds and it's contact with the faeces or breathing in infected feaces dust that has caused the human deaths so far. If the virus mutates so that it is passed human to human, the death toll is predicted to be in the millions worldwide. The chief medical officer in England has stated that there would be at least 50000 deaths in England alone, but that is an underestimate in my opinion. It takes 6 months just to create a vaccine for a new strain of the virus so if it hits, well, just do the math.The influenza virus itself is not terribly deadly. Yes people die from it but not so many as to qualify as a "plague" or a "disaster."

What happens is that the virus weakens the body, particularly the immune system, so that other infections--bacterial ones especially but also such prosaic things as amoebic dysentery--can get a foothold and reproduce. Influenza victims who die almost always die from the effects of bacterial and other infections.

The so-called "Spanish flu" (poor Spain got the blame because most of the other countries were at war and refused to make it public that they had a problem because they feared their enemies would find it a propitious time for an invasion) resulted in so many deaths because medical science and living conditions at that time made it impossible to control the bacterial infections. Remember that penicillin was many years off. The whole germ theory of disease was still not universally known so sanitation and hygiene were not up to today's standards in a lot of places.

I think it's really unlikely that a flu epidemic today is going to kill 50,000 people in an obsessive-compulsive, squeaky-clean, mind-your-manners place like England. A place where people never take their shoes off and they don't even shake hands until the third date! It will hit the Third World hard, but everything hits the Third World hard. That's why we call it that.

If you want to minimize your chances of this flu being anything more than a particularly uncomfortable version of the last flu, then take all of the good suggestions given here to keep your immune system healthy. Rest, good nutrition, exercise, good emotional health, cleanliness, don't put stuff in you or vice versa if you don't know where it's been.

When was the last time you cleaned the top of your desk at the office? Your telephone? Your keyboard? Do you eat while you're working and touch your food with the same hands that pick up papers that have been all over the office? Do you walk down the stairs to the cafeteria, holding the same handrail that the last six hundred people held, and then pick up your hamburger without washing your hands? I have a friend who pours his vitamins out onto his DESK and then puts them in his mouth!

Do everything your momma told you!

This was foreseeable, but one by one, all European countries are reporting cases of the feared flu.
Sweeden has just reported a case, a duck
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4368334.stm

I'm going to deprive myself of eating bird flesh until the situation is clarified. Some fearmongers are offering their reasons and some other people are trying to calm the population.
It's likely that a lot of other Europen countries will find flu in their birds within the next two weeks. Nothing can stop these beasts from flying from country to country.

Naturally if this so called "pandemic" was real it would be cause for concern. Please allow me to share some thoughts on this subject "Bird Flu".
To begin with, It seems that we are always deluged with some sort of "Big Bad Wolfe". There was SARS. A couple hundred or so folks SUPPOSEDLY died from this. According to the facts on this by an article put out by the W.H.O. , In China, on the Average month, over 600 people die of neumonia. EVERY MONTH !

Remember the Swine Flu ? That sort of scared the "bajeebers" out of everyone including me. As it turned out it was no big deal. It is also said that last year (or the year before) when we had that contaminated flu vaccine, there was an actual DECREASE in the cases flu in line with the the decrease in Flu Shots.

One thing I am suspicious of is the fact that we keep hearing about the thousands upon thousands of "Dead Birds". I have yet to see a picture of any more than just ONE dead bird. As a matter of fact, when a story breaks about this "bird flu" they always have a picture of live, healthy looking birds !

Personally I think that the powers that be prefer to keep us scared and of course the Pharmaceutical Companies love selling the Billions of Dollars worth of Vaccines ! THis all just may be an "ad campaign" that they get for free via the media. Looking back over the years it doesn't change from year to year. Its the same old song, just by different name.

I cannot be the only one that is fed up with all this unfortunate manipulation. Its time for all good people in the World to band together to demand honesty from the authorities and we, in large numbers posess the power to do something about it.

Join The Revolution
www.strategicboycott.com
REVOLUTION WITHOUT BLOODSHED

Naturally if this so called "pandemic" was real it would be cause for concern. Please allow me to share some thoughts on this subject "Bird Flu".
To begin with, It seems that we are always deluged with some sort of "Big Bad Wolfe". There was SARS. A couple hundred or so folks SUPPOSEDLY died from this. According to the facts on this by an article put out by the W.H.O. , In China, on the Average month, over 600 people die of neumonia. EVERY MONTH !

Remember the Swine Flu ? That sort of scared the "bajeebers" out of everyone including me. As it turned out it was no big deal. It is also said that last year (or the year before) when we had that contaminated flu vaccine, there was an actual DECREASE in the cases flu in line with the the decrease in Flu Shots.

One thing I am suspicious of is the fact that we keep hearing about the thousands upon thousands of "Dead Birds". I have yet to see a picture of any more than just ONE dead bird. As a matter of fact, when a story breaks about this "bird flu" they always have a picture of live, healthy looking birds !

Personally I think that the powers that be prefer to keep us scared and of course the Pharmaceutical Companies love selling the Billions of Dollars worth of Vaccines ! THis all just may be an "ad campaign" that they get for free via the media. Looking back over the years it doesn't change from year to year. Its the same old song, just by different name.

I cannot be the only one that is fed up with all this unfortunate manipulation. Its time for all good people in the World to band together to demand honesty from the authorities and we, in large numbers posess the power to do something about it.

Join The Revolution
www.strategicboycott.com
REVOLUTION WITHOUT BLOODSHED

Same old song by a different name, eh.

Keep history in mind. Not the one you've presented here, but the one that really happened. Have you already forgotten the most recent one - the Hong Kong flu?

You should have your post tattooed on your forearm so that if this stuff does make it to the human-human stage, you can read it aloud while someone you know is hacking their lungs out from a fatal bacterial infection that was given a foothold by the flu. It will give you a lot of comfort.

Same old song by a different name, eh.

Keep history in mind. Not the one you've presented here, but the one that really happened. Have you already forgotten the most recent one - the Hong Kong flu?

You should have your post tattooed on your forearm so that if this stuff does make it to the human-human stage, you can read it aloud while someone you know is hacking their lungs out from a fatal bacterial infection that was given a foothold by the flu. It will give you a lot of comfort.

As a counter point post:

That could depend on how people remember the 1976 "swine flu" episode. In that year, a pig flu among some soldiers spurred a nationwide vaccination program. However, the epidemic never materialized because the virus did not spread easily, and many people considered the campaign a false alarm. Furthermore, the swine flu vaccine was implicated in causing a few cases of a severe nerve disorder called Guillain Barre syndrome. *one person is known to have died from the swine flu, several were sick.

One website said around 20,000 americans die on the average, each year, from the flu.

H5N1 has been around for a long time. As I understand this, since 1997 (8 years) in regions with what can be called epidemics of bird flu in the avian populations, this virus has not mutated and produced that key factor needed for human to human transmission. And it seems each of these persons who have developed the flu have aquired it via introduction of the virus into their system via feces or some other hygenic failure on their part.

.

Either way it's a good idea to keep immune system healthy, if not for the bird flu, then for others.

p.s. I know how to really freak out Americans, you just have to rename some anti-viral drug to "Flu Buddy". :D
A reference to Stephen King's "The STAND" ;)

I think people forget about spanish flu, which was an avian flu which also turned into a massive pandemic which killed 50 MILLION people in 1918,
bare in mind that the population was less back then and we didn't fly around the world and travel around so much back then.

These days i would say worst case scenerio would be more like 200 MILLION, that is a good 5% of the worlds population.

They cannot make a vaccine until people have the human-human form, by which time it would be too late, health services would be strained, hardly anyone will go to work.

If worst comes to worst you are looking at economic collapse and anarchy, i mean this aint 1918 we rely too heavily on people working, we dont do things ourselves anymore, it would be a disaster.

Eat lots of fresh garlic, take vitamins, dress warm - keep the immune system in a good shape.
Avoid public transport, just in case buy a few packs of some anti-viral drug (there are not that many of those around).

If it strikes with maximum power - stay at home or in some more remote place, stash food for 3 months,
they usually don't stay in one place longer than that.

That anti-viral shit costs a fortune it is like $10 a tablet!!! and the price will probably go up now, i can't get it in the UK, if i want a weeks supply for me and my family i'm looking at shelling out £600 for a weeks supply for something which might not happen.

And then if it does happen when my grandparents die of it (which they will for certain as they are both 80 years old) i'm going to feel guilty.

What do i do? do i go with the rest of the panic buyers and risk my wallet, or do i sit back and pretend this shit isn't happening and nothing is going to happen?

I suppose i could rely on my government who stockpiled 14 million doses of the damned things.

It will not stop you getting the flu, it'll just prevent you dying from it, although that remains to be seen!