Studies going back over 50 years have repeatedly arrived at the same conclusion -- racists have lower IQs than non-racists.

http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/sayar/riqs.htm

Well, if only one study is what you call "proof", then I'm astounded. Perhaps you should do a bit more research, or else the "racists' research" will overwhelm you!

Baron Max

Where did I use the word "proof"?

Where did I use the word "proof"?

It's clearly implied in your title. Otherwise, you should have used qualifiers like "perhaps" or "may" - but you certainly did not.

Nope, that's the title of the article as I found it.

Although the study may be slightly flawed and biased on a personal scale, the statistics to indeed point out that racists are less intelligent. I have seen it on this forum and elsewhere.

Although I agree with the overall conclusions of these studies, I particularly am vexed at the one on college major (people in liberal arts are less intelligent?)

It angers me greatly, that neonazis use the German Imperial Banner as a racist symbol- disgusting and offensive to us monarchists.

I particularly am vexed at the one on college major (people in liberal arts are less intelligent?)

Maybe they're measuring intelligence incorrectly; there are more bullshitters in the liberal arts, but there are also many smart people.

I think there's a difference between bigots and people who, scientifically, recognize the difference between races. Bigots say "X race is bad, let's kill them all." It's not bigoted to want to preserve your own tribe by excluding other races, and the people who take that perspective, to my mind, are often quite intelligent.

It's not bigoted to want to preserve your own tribe by excluding other races, and the people who take that perspective, to my mind, are often quite intelligent.

I agree.

But by the views of most people of the west, that statement is bigoted, prejudiced and racist (and any other word that means "bad"!). Welcome to the real world.

Baron Max

@ thread topic;

this really isnt suprising to me, all we have to do is look at what kinds of people are racists, how they show these 'feelings', and how they behave on a constant bases, and we can all see that anyone with a high IQ would be less likely to hold views such as these racists.

As a side note, i dont really think that in many circumstances 'IQ' can count for all that much.

this really isnt suprising to me, all we have to do is look at what kinds of people are racists, how they show these 'feelings', and how they behave on a constant bases, and we can all see that anyone with a high IQ would be less likely to hold views such as these racists.

So ye're judging all racists on the actions/thoughts of just a few? How interesting. Can I use the same method to judge all blacks and/or all Muslims?

Baron Max

Baron : Can you list the names of people of different ethnicity in history whom you admire and list the reasons you admire them?

Thanks

c20

I do not think I am now a racist, but as I was never north of the Mason/Dixon line prior to going to Cornell, I know I was one at one time, when I went north of the M&D line. Being a racist has little to do with intelligence. I think the following is from the "three penny opera" but in any case this is the basis of racism:

"…you have to be carefully taught,
before you are 6 or 7 or 8,
to hate all the people your parents hate.
you have to be carefully taught..."

I became active in the civil right movement as a graduate student, in part to transform myself. (Partially because some attractive girls from Gaucher College were participating, I must admit.) I was transportation coordinator for Baltimore’s "Civic Interest Group" and we opened the restaurants and movies houses to all that summer.

I never, during that summer, was able to see a pretty white liberal girl kissing one of the black guys in the group, without being disturbed by it. I was open about this and in effort to make others understand, I discussed the bases of biases/ prejudices in general with them. I claimed all have some, and still do make this claim.

First, I got them to agree that a bias or prejudice is an emotional reaction without any rational foundation as a working definition. Then I would usually ask them to spit in a clean glass till the liquid was an inch deep, wait a minute and then drink it. Some would do so, but none could thereafter deny that they too had irrational biases/ emotional reactions/ prejudices as we had defined them.

One of the things I like about living in Brazil, is that at least in the masses, the social integration of the races is very well accepted. There is still a lot of economic discrimination, blacks live in poor areas more than whites, get less education in there schools, end up in average, in less paid jobs, etc. but it is a lot better than the USA I remember and I am glad to say that I now take pleasure when I see a white lady as the companion of a black man. - I have finally achieved a goal I set for myself long ago.

Summary: intelligence has little to do with racism, but years of using it can make a difference if you want it to.

As further proof that intelligence has little to do with racist attitudes, consider: that I was always a strong believer that everyone had the right to chose their own friends, yet white girls should not kiss black boys was also my view at one time!

So ye're judging all racists on the actions/thoughts of just a few? How interesting. Can I use the same method to judge all blacks and/or all Muslims?

Baron Max

Your tryin to tell me you dont??

According to this ridiculous and absurd website, the average IQ of a racist is 95. Do they fail to realize that is still ten points higher then the average IQ of a certain racial group i will not mention by name?

Sites like this are so ridiculous, they make me laugh.

According to this ridiculous and absurd website, the average IQ of a racist is 95. Do they fail to realize that is still ten points higher then the average IQ of a certain racial group i will not mention by name?

Sites like this are so ridiculous, they make me laugh.
haha...LOOK at how this racist screams and shouts at the mere mention HIS/HER prcious IQ may be 'low', yet will be first in line to put down a whole people tey are low IQ....i couldn't give a shite bout the fukin stupid IQ crap. i am just making a point

Well, if only one study is what you call "proof", then I'm astounded. Perhaps you should do a bit more research, or else the "racists' research" will overwhelm you!

Baron Max

You seem to be measuring with two sticks here. If we object to some statistics brought forward by some racist we always get blamed for not seeing the obvious and the 'proof'.

And now we see some numbers saying racists are not very intelligent over all and you suddenly object.

Does this mean you only like numbers when they agree with your own position?

According to this ridiculous and absurd website, the average IQ of a racist is 95. Do they fail to realize that is still ten points higher then the average IQ of a certain racial group i will not mention by name?

Sites like this are so ridiculous, they make me laugh.

Still, according to racist viewpoints we smarter non racist should not mix with the low intelligent racist. Surely racists must admit that it would be better for the white race. If they have an ounce of integrity and logic.

Studies going back over 50 years have repeatedly arrived at the same conclusion -- racists have lower IQs than non-racists.

http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/sayar/riqs.htm

You must feel pretty smart now do you?

ten points higher then the average IQ of a certain racial group i will not mention by name?
Humans? That is the only actual race, you know. The human race.
Dumbshit. :rolleyes:

Maybe you shouldn't use the word "IQ". It refers to a physical characteristic of a human and it is simply impossible for it to differ in human beings according to their thoughts. You can say that "The views of racists are not smart, and are not intellient" but you can't, in many a cases, call a racist *person* unintelligent. It is possible for a genius to be a racist. While on the other hand it is possible for a not-so-bright person to be a racist as-well. So I'd say that the views of racists may not be so intelligent, but as a person you can't tag them as "unintelligent" or any different from non-racists. They're both humans with almost the same characteristics, the IQ level differs in all human beings and saying that "Racists have low IQ or these people with these certain beliefs have a low IQ" is stupid and in no way is true. Please check the defintion of "Intelligence", and "I.Q.". (No offense intended in any way, shape, or form.)

Humans? That is the only actual race, you know. The human race.
Dumbshit. :rolleyes:

Austrolopethicus Robustus------>Homo Habilis----->Homo Erectus-----

>Homo Sapien

Human "Race" is not even a scientific term

Make sure you know what you are talking about before you make an UTTER
failure out of yourself, without resorting to childish and pathetic name calling.

It seems that the terms "racist" "bigot" and "prejudice" in one grammatical form or another are being used interchangably. But many sociologists would claim that everyone harbors a tendency to be prejudice against one type of people or another based on experiance. So then if they are being used synonomously, wouldn't it be easily deducted that the statment "racists have lower IQs" is really saying we could all have higher IQs if personal experiance didn't have a tendancy to shape our later thoughts and actions?

I dare anyone to find a racist as dumb as duendy, john smith, truthseeker, etc etc.
I suspect they may exist somewhere, in the back country, but let's face it- you don't need to be a genius to be offended by racism.

Perhaps at the absolute bottom of the pile are ignorant racists who don't think, just feel. Then there are the pussies who get their knickers in a twist over racial remarks, and then on top of those are the people who see the politically correct bullshit for what it is, and they're deemed racist by pussies who are stupid.
Overall the numbers may indicate racists are dumber, but perhaps are more demanding, comprehensive and strict study would reveal the top point on the intelligence pyramid are kind of racist.
Just grossly outnumbered by the racist base of the pyramid, and the fat pussy mid section.

Maybe the dumbest just happen to be right because they're not thinking so much, just being the animal they naturally are.
Anti-racists try to think about it but they aren't smart enough to fully figure it out, they find flaws with the reasoning of animal rednecks, and assume the rednecks must be wrong. See it's all just a little too complicated for them.
The elite individuals such as myself think for themselves and aren't swayed either way by what dumb people think.
Dumb people, like chimps, happen to instinctively be on the ball but they can't make legible sense of their urges.

Also, something for you to think about- most black people are racist, this could seriously be affecting the statistics.

listen up all you racists...you know who yo are

I do NOT need no dumb white middle classian 'inspired' IQ test to KNOWthat yu'll are all TOGETHER as tthick s two short planks. the hillarious thing is, you dont REALIZE this fact.....

hillarious yes. but also you are very dangerous and cause much evil! we haven't forgotten what you are cpable of, and what your views spread. which is evil

recently here in the UK we havehad a racist murder of a young black man, which happened in Liverpool--of all places. supposedly one of Europes first melting pots.

Innocently at a bus stop with his gilfriend and frined he is verbally assaulted by some white youths coming out of a pub

then tose same evil bastards ambush them, and one puts an ICE AXEthrough the young black man's head killing him outright.

such as THAT is what you racists contribute to!!....everytime your mouth opens evil comes out. everytime you think evil electricity shoots about. everytime you type evil comes from your fingers!

^ exhibit a

Possibly the dumbest human being on earth today.
And yet, staunchly opposed to racism. What gives?

Less intelligent people are probably more likely to accept others' views instead of thinking for themselves. But whether they are racist or not will depend on whether their family, friends, etc are racist.

Besides which, whether a person is racist or not can change over time. Even intelligence can change to a degree.

Innocently at a bus stop with his gilfriend and frined he is verbally assaulted by some white youths coming out of a pub

then tose same evil bastards ambush them, and one puts an ICE AXEthrough the young black man's head killing him outright.

So because of one incident/crime, ye're willing to condemn an entire political group? Do you also condemn all blacks because some black man kills a white man? ...'cause it happens, ya' know!

Duendy, you, like many others, develop your own hatreds based on such meager evidence as the above incident, yet you wildly and passionately condemn others for doing almost the same thing. Is that rather hypocritical of you?

Baron Max

Austrolopethicus Robustus------>Homo Habilis----->Homo Erectus-----

>Homo Sapien

Human "Race" is not even a scientific term

Make sure you know what you are talking about before you make an UTTER
failure out of yourself, without resorting to childish and pathetic name calling.
Who said shit about scientific terms? I'm simply saying that all humans are essentially the same (same physiology, same internal structuring, etc.), and that racial divisions are purely illusionary, blinding those that believe in them from the greater concept of human unity.

So because of one incident/crime, ye're willing to condemn an entire political group? Do you also condemn all blacks because some black man kills a white man? ...'cause it happens, ya' know!

Duendy, you, like many others, develop your own hatreds based on such meager evidence as the above incident, yet you wildly and passionately condemn others for doing almost the same thing. Is that rather hypocritical of you?

Baron Max
you rarely hear of racist killings from black peple on white, tho vice versa, yes

i do not deny that there is racism by some members in black community, but this has come from white cu;ltures racism from slavery days to now

how many black people are here constantly putting down white people?....this is whati mean. ....racism is racism. whoevers pewin it is caught up in dark dark hatered and ignorance. dont care how smart you look wid yer suits and false smiles. behind all that facade is EVIL. breeds evil

Being that blacks are clearly the most racist group of people on the planet and have always had the lowest IQ levels of any and all groups.

I would have to agree "racists have low IQ's".

you rarely hear of racist killings from black peple on white,
http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html

I would have said that the Jews were among the most "racist" of all races. Some of them are pretty smart!

The Chinese score pretty high as racists too, believing that Caucasians are hairier than Chinese because they are closer to their ape ancestors. I find most Chinese pretty smart too.

I am also a racist (in the sense that I believe that genetically coherent societies work better), and have a sufficiently high IQ to have been a member of Mensa.

However, I would say that personal experience of racial conflict (rather than intellectual reflection) is often a decisive factor in making people racist.

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html
hello jb...it is a raciiist site...already...? what ya like? you believe what you want to believe. you seek what you want to believe. you are racist. thats what you do

you have said before. you beliee whites. especially you are superior to ALL black people. what is that? how do you ever expect respect with that attitude?

Possibly the dumbest human being on earth today.
And yet, staunchly opposed to racism. What gives?Come now Dr. Lou. Don't speak of yourself so harshly. I'm sure with time and effort you can find someone dumber than yourself. Just don't give up hope.

Studies going back over 50 years have repeatedly arrived at the same conclusion -- racists have lower IQs than non-racists.

http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/sayar/riqs.htmIt is funny how now with this link(that attacks whites), the IQ test is now O.K and a perfect way to judge peoples intelligence.

i do not deny that there is racism by some members in black community, ...

And yet they're the first ones to protest and condemn racism?!?! ...LOL!!

What ...the pot calls the kettle black, but then they fight to see which is the blackest?! ...LOL!!

Baron Max

...in the sense that I believe that genetically coherent societies work better....

I agree! And I sure wish more people, of all "races", would open their eyes and their minds and see that that is the most obvious of all possible viewpoints!

Why and how can people all over the world ignore something so blatently obvious??

Baron Max

Given that there are more genetic variations within the 'races' than there are between the 'races' that is a difficult one to justify. But I'm sure you are up to it.

Given that there are more genetic variations within the 'races' than there are between the 'races' that is a difficult one to justify.

Well, they should be separated, too! I mean, to a point, perhaps we should have a separate "nation" for each and every human on Earth ...with a 10' thick, 50' high concrete wall separatiing them all! Then perhaps, just maybe, we'd actually have peace on Earth .....maybe!?

Baron Max

Well, they should be separated, too! I mean, to a point, perhaps we should have a separate "nation" for each and every human on Earth ...with a 10' thick, 50' high concrete wall separatiing them all! Then perhaps, just maybe, we'd actually have peace on Earth .....maybe!?

Baron Max
and as you keep saying bmax, as revealed in your dream, you aintracist are you? ohhhh nooooo. no, you are total silly ol bugger

I am also a racist (in the sense that I believe that genetically coherent societies work better), and have a sufficiently high IQ to have been a member of Mensa.

Pfft, Mensa is only the top 2% of the population. Can't you do better than that?

It is funny how now with this link(that attacks whites), the IQ test is now O.K and a perfect way to judge peoples intelligence.

IQ tests do mean something, but I'm not sure how much it has to do with intelligence and how much it has to do with being good at IQ tests.

Well, they should be separated, too! I mean, to a point, perhaps we should have a separate "nation" for each and every human on Earth ...with a 10' thick, 50' high concrete wall separatiing them all! Then perhaps, just maybe, we'd actually have peace on Earth .....maybe!?

Don't tempt me.

It's clearly implied in your title. Otherwise, you should have used qualifiers like "perhaps" or "may" - but you certainly did not.

If we're going to practice semantics, the implication that he has proof is not a statement that he has proof. In any case, he is right. Racists do have low IQ's, as evinced daily by certain menial jobs where they abound. They also have median and uppermost quartile IQ's, as you can find at a certain website where the posters are the intellectual equals of most here..

What they share is the fact that they are indeed misguided. There are (dis)advantages to belonging to any given race, but they are societally-determined, not genetically.

Jaybee.

let's make it clear:
racism = unintelligence

Could anyone here actually tell the difference between, say, an IQ of 98 and an IQ of 101 without thorought testing in a fuckin' lab?

Or do some of you equate IQ with, say, menial labor jobs or ill-fashion clothing or dirty hands/nails or driving a pickup truck or ....well, any of those criteria? And if you do, wouldn't you say that ye're stereotyping or, worse, making class distinctions? Elitism, perhaps?

Baron Max

Could anyone here actually tell the difference between, say, an IQ of 98 and an IQ of 101 without thorought testing in a fuckin' lab?

Or do some of you equate IQ with, say, menial labor jobs or ill-fashion clothing or dirty hands/nails or driving a pickup truck or ....well, any of those criteria? And if you do, wouldn't you say that ye're stereotyping or, worse, making class distinctions? Elitism, perhaps?

Baron Max

Damn right I am. With me, it's 'egalitarianism' that's the dirty word.


Jaybee.

Equalitarian ideologists often discount I.Q. test results with the excuse that they are culturally biased. Nonetheless, NO ONE, not the NAACP nor the United Negro College Fund, nor NEA had been able to develop an intelligence test which shows Blacks and Whites scoring equally.

Given that there are more genetic variations within the 'races' than there are between the 'races' that is a difficult one to justify. But I'm sure you are up to it.
False statement, bring proof.

In any case, he is right. Racists do have low IQ's, as evinced daily by certain menial jobs where they abound.
Jaybee.In America it is the Hispanics the domanate "menial jobs" of our country. In fact it is the Hispanics that risk there lives running from there own country just for a chance to have a menial job "where they abound".

Hispanics even brag and are very proud that they do the major majority of the "menial jobs" of America.

So are hispanics racist, or do they have "median and uppermost quartile IQ's".

False statement, bring proof.Accurate statement JB. You are merely displaying the depth of your own ignorance on this matter for all to see. I don't make posts without checking my facts. Only my insults are from the hip.

There is an interesting quiz about racial matters on this site. [http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04_a-godeeper.htm
Here is an extract from one of the answers.

If only the Swedes or Poles survived, we would still retain about 85% of our genetic variation. This is because most variation is within, rather than between, races. On average, any local population contains 85% of all human genetic variation, and any continent contains 94%. This is because humans have always migrated and mixed their genes. Two random Swedes, for example, are likely to be as different as a Swede and a Senegalese.

As a primary source I refer you to this paper in Nature http://shrn.stanford.edu/workshops/revisitingrace/Jorde-Wooding2004.pdf
Lynne B Jorde, Stephen P Wooding Genetic variation, classification and ‘race’ Nature Genetics Supplement Volume 36 Number 11 November 2004.
Specifically this from page 1:
“Approximately 85%-90% of genetic variation is found within these continental groups, and only an additional 10-15% variation is found between them. In other words, ~90% of total genetic variation would be found in a collection of individuals from a single continent, and only ~10% more variation would be found if the collection consisted of Europeans, Asians and Africans."

Now go peddle your incestuous nonsense in some dark alleyway where you belong.

Edited to correct link error spotted by Zephyr.

There is an interesting quiz about racial matters on this site. [http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04_a-godeeper.htm]
Here is an extract from one of the answers.

Your link does not work.

How do ALL those interacial organ transplants workout?

On average, black patients wait nearly five years for a kidney transplant — about 18 months longer than their white counterparts.

The reasons for this disparity, experts say, involve genetics, economics and donor rates. Regardless, the numbers reveal a harsh reality. More than 3,500 patients died last year waiting for a kidney transplant, and one-third of them were black. Yet black Americans make up only 12 percent of the nation's population.

The most common explanation for the difference in wait times is that the needs of the black community far exceed its current donation level, making transplants more difficult because organs tend to transplant better between members of the same ethnic groups. Indeed, only about 700 kidneys were taken from deceased black donors in 2003, compared with 4,000 white donors.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/mindbody/may05/transplant.html

The statement "All races have more genetic variation between them then within them" is a misleading and deceptive one.

All it means is that people may have different abilities and traits in comparison with other racial groups.

However, this is also the case in gender and within families.
this does not mean these two concepts are not important, however.

on average East Asians score higher on IQ tests then whites, would anyone call me racist for saying that? How can these tests be biased towards non whites when certain non groups score higher then the white population.


It is not any different when i mention the average IQ'S of other racial groups.
which i was previously attacked for mentioning by some hippie liberal leftist

JB: I have inserted the primary link into my original post and repeat it here. I omitted it in error from the original post.
http://shrn.stanford.edu/workshops/revisitingrace/Jorde-Wooding2004.pdf

I am still reviewing why the first link is not working.

The transplant issue is irrelevant. I'm talking total genetic character. Race is a chimera. Learn to live with that fact or build yourself that concrete sarcophagus. I don't mind which.

on average East Asians score higher on IQ tests then whites, would anyone call me racist for saying that? How can these tests be biased towards non whites when certain non groups score higher then the white population.


If you claim that this is proof of the existence of races then you are indeed a racist.

In America it is the Hispanics the domanate "menial jobs" of our country. In fact it is the Hispanics that risk there lives running from there own country just for a chance to have a menial job "where they abound".


Of course. The $50 or so they send back to their families is worth four times that.

Hispanics even brag and are very proud that they do the major majority of the "menial jobs" of America.

If I came from a dirt poor background, I'd be bragging to my dirt poor friends too about my dirt poor job.

So are hispanics racist, or do they have "median and uppermost quartile IQ's".

?

(question mark added as you left it out)

Why is that an either/or question? Or is Spanish your first language?


Jaybee.

Of course. The $50 or so they send back to their families is worth four times that.Abandoning your family is a sign of low IQ. Why is money here "worth four times" more then money there?



If I came from a dirt poor background, I'd be bragging to my dirt poor friends too about my dirt poor job.

Now that clearly shows a low IQ.

?

(question mark added as you left it out)

Why is that an either/or question? Or is Spanish your first language?


Jaybee.
Look, you wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Racists do have low IQ's, as evinced daily by certain menial jobs where they abound. They also have median and uppermost quartile IQ's"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hispanics lead by far all groups of people in having "certain menial jobs where they abound".

Question?
So, are you saying then that hispanics are racists that have low IQ's?

on average East Asians score higher on IQ tests then whites, would anyone call me racist for saying that?
I think you make the mistake of being offended by the word racist. By doing this you play into the hands of those who wish to stifle rational discussion.

Abandoning your family is a sign of low IQ. You really are thick aren't you?
Leaving your family to earn money to support them is not abandoning them. It is an act of considerable self sacrifice and commitment. Something you apparently don't understand.

. Why is money here "worth four times" more then money there?
Fuck me. You are not only stupid you are uneducated.
It's worth four times as much because it will buy four times as many goods and services. This is covered by a little topic we like to call economics, or, if you prefer 'making ends meet'. Saints preserve us from the terminally daft.

I see you skipped my last question.

You really are thick aren't you?
Leaving your family to earn money to support them is not abandoning them. It is an act of considerable self sacrifice and commitment. Something you apparently don't understand.What I understand is the fact that people who have family's and cannot figure out a way to be with there family's and earn money are showing a clear lack of intelligences (IQ)

Fuck me. You are not only stupid you are uneducated.
It's worth four times as much because it will buy four times as many goods and services. This is covered by a little topic we like to call economics, or, if you prefer 'making ends meet'. Saints preserve us from the terminally daft.How is it that one group of people are able to make there money worth much more then that of another group of peoples?

Would this have to do with IQ?

PS:
The American dollar is worth ten times that of the Mexican peso.

You really are thick aren't you?
Leaving your family to earn money to support them is not abandoning them. It is an act of considerable self sacrifice and commitment. Something you apparently don't understand.

Fuck me. You are not only stupid you are uneducated.
It's worth four times as much because it will buy four times as many goods and services. This is covered by a little topic we like to call economics, or, if you prefer 'making ends meet'. Saints preserve us from the terminally daft.

No mate, it's my fault...I can smell the unintelligent a mile off and I STILL end up talking to them...

WTF!!!!

No mate, it's my fault...I can smell the unintelligent a mile off and I STILL end up talking to them...

A clear sign of intelligence.

Couldn't resist. :p

A clear sign of intelligence.

Couldn't resist. :p

Nor should you have tried! Well spotted, I hoped someone would.

Abandoning your family is a sign of low IQ.
No it's not. That's actually closer to rationalism. Raising children costs money, money that could be used on luxuries and better living quarters.

Note to J.B,

It's families, not "family's"

and

intelligence, not "intelligences"

Nice try Spidergoat, but I fear he is irredeemably uneducatable.

I'm not prejudiced against the uneducated. It is this diversity that makes the melting pot of America such a great nation!

I'm not prejudiced against the uneducated.

If you've already decided that someone is uneducated, then you've already judge him.

There's no way you can avoid prejudice. And I don't think prejudice and racism in general should always be looked at as bad. It's funny how non or anti-racists remark on how stupid racists are, when their own idea of racism is incredibly black and white and not grounded in reality. Take duendy for instance. No, I'm not going to elaborate.


People should be more tolerant of racism and try to explore the notion that not all racism is the same.

Good racism = avoiding black (in general) people on the street
Bad racism = indiscriminately (discriminately) assaulting black people
Good racism = becoming educated and realizing that there really are differences between people of different races
Bad racism = not giving people of different races a chance (of course there are exceptions to this rule)

Yes, goddamit, I have judged J.B based on the content of his character, which is pitiful.

I never cross the street because of the color of someone's skin, but I could see doing so no matter what color if they were dressed like a gangster or skinhead, or if their body language suggested aggression or insanity. There is no good racism.

We need to recognize the primary force of culture in human society.

We need to recognize the primary force of culture in human society.

Which is ...what??? And remember now, before you answer, it should also take into account the rise of great cultures in history that were essentially segragationalist in their actions and lives.

Baron Max

You are confusing culture with culture. An easy enough mistake to make. Now I have pointed it out to you, perhaps you can answer your own question. Can you?

No, I still can't figure it out! But remember, I ain't the brightest bulb in the pack. So if you would, please explain it for me ....and hopefully by using little, tiny words.

Baron Max

I guess neither the sharpest tool im the shed either then....:)

You are confusing culture with culture. An easy enough mistake to make.

Well, I've thought about this all night now ...and still don't know the difference between "culture" and "culture". Would you please help me out? Please explain the differences.

Baron Max

There is an interesting quiz about racial matters on this site. [http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04_a-godeeper.htm]
Here is an extract from one of the answers.

Your link does not work.

Right, and high-IQ you didn't think of deleting the square bracket at the end? How many web documents have you seen that end with the extension htm]?!

The above link, without the final square bracket. Click it, it works!

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04_a-godeeper.htm

I suspect that homophobes have low I.Q’s as well.

In fact I think anyone who looks down on another because he/she is or thinks differently different must be stupid.
For instance anyone who believes someone has a low I.Q. because they are racist must have a low I.Q., also.

It’s assign of intelligence to believe that diversity is cosmetic.

Hating haters is just as disgusting as hating racists.

We are all the same people!!!!!

Which is ...what??? And remember now, before you answer, it should also take into account the rise of great cultures in history that were essentially segragationalist in their actions and lives.

Baron Max
Well, that's my point. Human behavior is widely varied all over the world, and this is due to culture, so it's stupid to be a racist. Certain races have a correlation with certain cultures, but to think that your race determines how you behave is not accurate.

The child of a british nobelman could crash land in Africa, and be raised by the bushmen, and would act like a bushman. A Bushman could be adopted and raised by a British nobel family, and act just like an englishmen (discounting the cultural prejudice inherent against black people and the lower classes in Britian).

Well, that's my point. Human behavior is widely varied all over the world, and this is due to culture, so it's stupid to be a racist.

Geez, Spider, you don't even know what the fuck racism IS, do you! A racist in America don't give a shit about, say, the blacks in African ...he just don't want blacks in HIS OWN area/neighborhood/town/city/etc!! I know of no racist who makes any kind of point about hating blacks 10,000 miles from his home ....he just don't want the fuckers near him! In fact, he wants ALL of the blacks to stay in Africa ...that would make him happy as a pig is shit on a hot Texas day.

The child of a british nobelman .... raised by the bushmen, and would act like a bushman.

Ahh, perhaps he'd ACT like one, but that ain't got shit to do with whether or not there'd be any racism one way or the other. If you have some evidence for that remark, pertaining to racism, please present it.

A Bushman could be adopted and raised by a British nobel family, and act just like an englishmen .....

See the remark above concerning racism versus how they act! And your remark about the racism "in the lower classes" is pretty prejudicial, isn't it? And isn't that almost the same as being "racist"? I mean, hatred is hatred, isn't it?

Baron Max

We are all the same people!!!!!

No we're not!! Where in hell did you get such a silly, assinine idea as that? As far as I can tell, almost everyone is NOT the same as anyone else ...and it's so obvious that to say otherwise is ignorant in the extreme.

Baron Max

If you've already decided that someone is uneducated, then you've already judge him.

There's no way you can avoid prejudice. Prejudice means to pre judge on the basis of some (probably) irrelevant, stereotypical feature. Certainly my judging of JB is based upon his words and his viewpoints as expressed in a multitude of posts. This is not prejudice. It's just common sense. :)


And Zephyr thank you for identifying the error in the first of my links. I clearly (or rather, unclearly) need some new glasses. :(

The difference between racists and retards is that racicists choose to be stupid.

In which case I'd like to add that racists give stupidity a bad name.

No it's not. That's actually closer to rationalism. Raising children costs money, money that could be used on luxuries and better living quarters.Blacks and mexicans are famous for abandoning there off spring, and not sending any money to them.

I can give you the facts and stats on this, but then you will just say facts and stats are meaningless.

Racists do have low IQ's, as evinced daily by certain menial jobs where they abound. They also have median and uppermost quartile IQ's,
Jaybee.This is clearly a attack on the hispanics of the world.

How is it that one group of people are able to make there money worth much more then that of another group of peoples?

Would this have to do with IQ?

PS:
The American dollar is worth ten times that of the Mexican peso.

This is clearly a attack on the hispanics of the world.

How old are you?

How old are you? Forty

Forty

Thank you. May I also ask whether you hold a job in the private sector, and what attracted you to sciforums?


Jaybee.

Thank you. May I also ask whether you hold a job in the private sector,Yes, I have a job in the private sector. and what attracted you to sciforums?
Jaybee.
To have scientific conversations about the racial differences of humans.

The American dollar is worth ten times that of the Mexican peso.
That's because mexico's economy is more agrarian than america's, and thus does not do as well in the modern industrial world, which has thus caused an inflation in Mexico's economy, resulting in the debasing of the mexican peso much like the debasing of the RM in weimar germany, though definently not to the same extent.

Blacks and mexicans are famous for abandoning there off spring, and not sending any money to them.

I can give you the facts and stats on this, but then you will just say facts and stats are meaningless.

This thread indeed has a point (the correlation is probably definite).

To have scientific conversations about the racial differences of humans.

That's interesting. However, many of the links you post up seem to be affiliated with the Neonazi and KKK line of thought, if not so directly. Can you explain this? Do you sympathize with these organizations insofar as your agreement with their ideas?

That's because mexico's economy is more agrarian than america's, and thus does not do as well in the modern industrial world, which has thus caused an inflation in Mexico's economy, resulting in the debasing of the mexican peso much like the debasing of the RM in weimar germany, though definently not to the same extent.

Does exchange rate say anything about the strength of an economy though? The Yen is worth much less than the Dollar, but... ^~

That's interesting. However, many of the links you post up seem to be affiliated with the Neonazi and KKK line of thought, if not so directly. Can you explain this? Do you sympathize with these organizations insofar as your agreement with their ideas?Do you have "many" examples of these neonazi and kkk links you speak of?

That's true, most of J.B's "scientific" sources are blocked from viewing at my workplace, citing "hate speech".

That's true, most of J.B's "scientific" sources are blocked from viewing at my workplace, citing "hate speech".
Do you have "many" examples of these neonazi and kkk links you speak of?

According to these people , anything controversial is "KKK' or "NeoNazi".

However, if someone said something like "East Asians on average score higher then whites on IQ tests" nobody would have made the claim for racism.

Its typical leftist liberal thinking, avoid the problem and hope it will go away.

But as we have seen in recent riots in Denmark,Sweden,France.....multiculturalism and integration are not as simple and easy as they sound.

The "Integration" model apparently isnt going as planned.

We wouldn't make a claim for racism, because such a phenomenon is not due to race. Tell, me is segregation and isolationism the same as avoiding the problem? Because it seems that way to me.

We wouldn't make a claim for racism, because such a phenomenon is not due to race. Tell, me is segregation and isolationism the same as avoiding the problem? Because it seems that way to me.Your saying that people that would segregated themselves would be "avoiding the problem"?.

What is the problem that "people" would be "avoiding"?

Tell me, is segregation and isolationism the same as avoiding the problem? Because it seems that way to me.

If you'd leave out the term "isolationism", then 'Yes', it is. Segragation is avoiding the problems of integrating UNLIKE people and cultures into a larger group of like people and culture.

But it's also backed up with numerous examples to prove, almost conclusively, that "integration" of different races and cultures DOES NOT WORK ....and never has worked!

And isn't avoiding a known problem a valid solution to the issue? Or would you suggest that we all keep butting our heads against a brick wall until either the wall collapses or we do????

Baron Max

What do you mean by integration: living in the same city; or completely losing cultural differences until everybody speaks the same, thinks the same, eats the same and wears the same; or something in between?

Your saying that people that would segregated themselves would be "avoiding the problem"?.

What is the problem that "people" would be "avoiding"?
That the stratified world of nations and separate cultural groups inhabiting their own well defined areas is a thing of the past. As climate change and fossil fuel depletion progresses, this will only increase.

But it's also backed up with numerous examples to prove, almost conclusively, that "integration" of different races and cultures DOES NOT WORK ....and never has worked!
It has been problematic but necessary if humans are to live in peace on this small world.

That the stratified world of nations and separate cultural groups inhabiting their own well defined areas is a thing of the past. As climate change and fossil fuel depletion progresses, this will only increase.
:bugeye:

Fossil.

That mean we can make 'im into fuel? Offset the integration he's so worried about...

Naw, there is no value in that point of view. They would have us all cowering in our separate enclaves, behind our national borders, armed to the teeth and paraniod until one day it all goes up in a cloud of radioactive vapor. He reminds me of that Star Trek episode where the two half-white/half-black people were fighting each other and no one knew why until they explained that some of their people were white on the right and black on the left, and the others were black on the right and white on the left!

Naw, there is no value in that point of view. They would have us all cowering in our separate enclaves, behind our national borders, armed to the teeth and paraniod until one day it all goes up in a cloud of radioactive vapor. He reminds me of that Star Trek episode where the two half-white/half-black people were fighting each other and no one knew why until they explained that some of their people were white on the right and black on the left, and the others were black on the right and white on the left! :bugeye:

It has been problematic but necessary if humans are to live in peace on this small world.

Why necessary? Why must different "races", cultures, religions, etc be forced to live together when they obviously don't want to?! Why do you say that it's necessary ......and worse, you also amend it by adding "...if humans are to live in peace...."

Humans ain't never gonna' live in peace as long as there's more than one fuckin' human!! Hasn't history taught us anything at all about humans and violence and war and greed and "whatever-is-the-opposite-of-compassionate"?

I just don't see how anyone can view the conditions of the world as they are at present, and have any real dreams of ....peace on Earth, goodwill towards man???? How?? How can anyone delude themselves so terribly?

Baron Max

Spidergoats view that it is "neccessary to live in a multicultural enviroment" is a pure example of delusional and wishful thinking.

He never provides one example to explain how diversity benefits society, other then fragmenting and dividing a nation.

I bet people like Spidergoat hate countries like Japan, where the homogeneous population actually view themselves as one nation and one culture.

We have tried Spidergoats experiment for the past 50 years and it has only brought us to the brink of destruction.

Why necessary? Why must different "races", cultures, religions, etc be forced to live together when they obviously don't want to?! Why do you say that it's necessary ......and worse, you also amend it by adding "...if humans are to live in peace...."

Humans ain't never gonna' live in peace as long as there's more than one fuckin' human!! Hasn't history taught us anything at all about humans and violence and war and greed and "whatever-is-the-opposite-of-compassionate"?

I just don't see how anyone can view the conditions of the world as they are at present, and have any real dreams of ....peace on Earth, goodwill towards man???? How?? How can anyone delude themselves so terribly?

Baron Max
We humans have always stole from and cheated and killed and raped each other; does this mean that making and enforcing laws banning crime was an ineficient use of human effort?

These racial, religious, ethnic, and nationalist competitions have been drains on productivity. They absorb resources without producing a gain for the world. We may get something if we enslave them but humanity as a whole loses. War sucks resources just as crime sucks resources. If I rob your house I get something but you lose and you will take resources that could have been productive and use them on a burglar alarm and a gun. If free trade is good because of the law of comparitive advantage then mixing people to bring various types of talents where they are most needed is also good.

We can not devide up into us and them without believing that they are different from us like animals are different from us. They and Us will want to treat each other the way we treat animals any time that lets us get something we want. So, if we devide into us and them, then war is inevitable. War is a waste of resources.

So, give efficiency (peace) a chance, suppress racism.

These racial, religious, ethnic, and nationalist competitions have been drains on productivity.

Who said anything about "racial, religious, ethnic. and nationalist competitions"? Where did you get that in my post? Just because I suggested that integration isn't necessarily a good thing, doesn't mean that there must be such competitions between those groups.

We may get something if we enslave them but humanity as a whole loses.

Who said anything about "enslaving" anyone? Certain that was NOT in my post, so what are you talking about and where did it come from?

War sucks resources just as crime sucks resources.

Who said anything about war?

If free trade is good because of the law of comparitive advantage then mixing people to bring various types of talents where they are most needed is also good.

How does free trade between segragated nations have anything to do with integration of those people? Ye're using logic where there is no logic! Nations can freely trade with each other without having to integrate and/or change each other's culture.

We can not devide up into us and them without believing that they are different from us like animals are different from us.

Sure we can! And as proof, humans have been doing that for a gazillion years or so! And "they" ARE different from us ...why does everyone try to deny the obvious? Different does NOT mean better or worse, good or bad ...it just means different.

So, if we devide into us and them, then war is inevitable.

Why? Can you prove that statement in any way?

Because, to the contrary, I think it's perfectly obvious how the opposite is true ...integration has been the cause of most of the conflicts in the world today. There is cultural and religious, as well as political strife in almost every area of the world ...yet you claim that mixing these cultures, religions and political views and all will be wonderful and peaceful. How can you say that while seeing the world as it is today?

Baron Max

WARS will exist regardless of "racism", i hardly see the point in bringing this up. Most conflicts are not based on racism either.

Politics and Religion play a larger role in world conflicts

Are you seriously suggesting that "all of these drains on our resources"
will end when racism ends? what about politics and religion? i guess those dont have much to do with world conflicts do they.

people that would segregated themselves
segragated

Very provocative.

Because, to the contrary, I think it's perfectly obvious how the opposite is true ...integration has been the cause of most of the conflicts in the world today. There is cultural and religious, as well as political strife in almost every area of the world ...yet you claim that mixing these cultures, religions and political views and all will be wonderful and peaceful. How can you say that while seeing the world as it is today?

Baron Max

I do not agree. Although the nascent of the integrated world seems to be doing worse in the short term, given a larger timescale we humans will definitely find a way to get along with each other.

I do not agree. Although the nascent of the integrated world seems to be doing worse in the short term, given a larger timescale we humans will definitely find a way to get along with each other.

Oh, really? You can see into the future that clearly? And do you have evidence for your belief, or is it just a gut feeling?

Humans haven't found any ways of "getting along" with other, different humans for the last gazillion years or so, but you think they'll "find a way" to do it real soon? Just when are they gonna' start?

Baron Max

WARS will exist regardless of "racism", i hardly see the point in bringing this up. Most conflicts are not based on racism either.

Politics and Religion play a larger role in world conflicts

Are you seriously suggesting that "all of these drains on our resources"
will end when racism ends? what about politics and religion? i guess those dont have much to do with world conflicts do they.

I didn't say anything like what ye're suggesting. ????

Krieg, if ye're making that comment about my posts, please read them again. I think you've misread most of it, or posted without reading all of it. Repost your amended comments, and I'll respond.

Baron Max

QUOTE by Baron Max
Why necessary? Why must different "races", cultures, religions, etc be forced to live together when they obviously don't want to?! Why do you say that it's necessary ......and worse, you also amend it by adding "...if humans are to live in peace...."

Because man(animal) and fish inherited the EARTH.....
(fish) water, (humans) land! All land....not you get some on this side and you get some on this side and you get what's ever left. Everyone on this fucking planet was born from one in AFRICA (Earth) get the fuck over it and move the fuck on!

by Baron Max
I just don't see how anyone can view the conditions of the world as they are at present, and have any real dreams of ....peace on Earth, goodwill towards man???? How?? How can anyone delude themselves so terribly?

You mean how can any(white african)one view the conditions created by (white african) people at the present and most Hatedly the past, and have any real dreams that they did not cause the majority of the worlds problems......Peace on Earth...give me a fucking break....only if 60% of your population fell off the fucking planet would that ever fucking happen! :mad:

You mean how can any white african one view the conditions created by white african people at the present ..., and have any real dreams that they did not cause the majority of the worlds problems......

Geez, Reighn, that sure sounds like a racist statement to me!

Because man ...inherited the EARTH..... All land....not you get some on this side and you get some on this side and you get what's ever left.

Reighn, I believe that even your beloved black Africans owned and/or controlled large segments of land ...and fought their black African neighbors to keep it. And the strongest, smartest black Africans kept their land, while the weaker, stupider black Africans lost their land. See? Not just white men wanted their own land!!

Baron Max

Since we have already established that race is largely an illusion, what is all this talk of black and white? Very confusing. Baron, by identifying the similarity of behaviour of the so called black and white races, you are neatly helping to confirm what should be obvious to the meanest intellect: race is of no consequence.

Ok, the arguement layed out by androids says that racists have low IQs based on statistical data. However, let us define what racism is as a term so we know what we are argueing about. There are many interpretations of this term, because you can be a racist that thinks of another race as inferior yet not hate them. On the other hand, you can be a racist by hating an entire race for nothing else than a chemical impulse from your brain (something that disgusts you about them). The brain works by associations. Therefore, what is the correct term of racist? There is no correct term. So which is the 'smart' racism and the dumb 'racism'?

If you think that another race is inferior, why would you seek to do harm to them unless you were evil or were in a position of need (such as survival)?
On the other hand, you may just hate a race because you despise certain individuals of that race which have been assholes to you. Therefore you may be more 'on edge' when you encounter a person of that race because of your past experience. This is a purely emotional impulse of dislike. As an example, lets say that more and more common white americans are having these feelings toward black americans because blacks have come to have a "chip on their shoulder" and have become overly-aggressive thinking that whites were and are racist, as a response, whites feel threatened by certain blacks and lash out impulsively to declare this injustice--becoming racists by the very fact that blacks suspect them to be racists. (continued on next reply)

Since we have already established that race is largely an illusion, what is all this talk of black and white? Very confusing.

When was that established? And who believes it in the real world? Or does this mean that when you see racial riots and racial conflicts in the world, you simply attribute it to something else altogether ...so you don't have to deal with the ugliness of racism? (Hide from the problem, and it will go away??)

...what should be obvious to the meanest intellect: race is of no consequence.

Try to convince everyone else in the world of that! My guess is that it's going to be a lot harder than just typing a few words on the screen!

Baron Max

1. If you truely beleive that an entire race is bad because of a couple of encounters---this is the stupid racism..even if the majority behaves this way (when you label yourself a racist, you are explicitly saying that you condem an entire race for the actions a few)
2. If you beleive that a race is inferior based on intuition/ statistical data --this is the smart racism ...because it follows logically that based on IQ tests and observation that a certain race (applying the rules of statistics to get a representative sample) is inferior.
3. Imagine number 1, but you label yourself a racist not intellecutally (because you know what the term means), but rather to satistfy yourself emotionally (for example, your anger), or to seek recognition*--this is also semi-smart racism because you are not a racists intellectually, you are just saying you are racist so that you can satisfy yourself emotionally ans seek peace in yourself at the time being because you hate certain individuals of that race who have done wrong to you.
4. to be racist because you know that a certain race is inferior (based not on certain experience but intuition and statistical data) and seek to use them for profitability for your own wellbeing ---this is also smart racism, although slightly dumb, because depending on your chemical makeup, you may not (in the long run) be able to acheive happiness with such self centerdness----however, this thinking is extremely self centered and if society notices it--- you can be sure that nature will come after you in order to restore balance (in simpler words, this is evil and sometimes not profitable for you in the long run, the most profitable policy in the long run is goodness, because other people tend to help you out if they notice you are a good person to society).

so you have smart and dumb racism. However putting people down is just part of being a human being. It is the master/ slave relationship invented long ago when human beings were apes in order to preserve our existence and survival. The slave and master are in a constant battle for dominion and the most prized thing of all---recognition. Today you can see this seeking of recogntion as well---hell, even on this website, androind put down the racists so he could gain some recognition from such assertion---hell, I put this down because of a "psychological kick" of knowing what people like you might think about my respose---about recognition that something I typed might be interesting---appealing to you--intriguing and that you think it might be smart---so that you can then share you thoughts and we can have a nice gay conversation---when someone is shuned, or does not receive the recongition he/ she was seeking---he/she feels 'humiliation'----the slave fights with his master for recogntion---it comes from a feeling of self-worth---we all seek recogntion in some way or another---and for stupid racists, there way is to put other people down (this is negative recognition)---because sometimes it is hard for them to seek recognition by other mean. So they are simply satisfying their self-esteem to acheive emotional balance---so--they are not stupid for seeking this satisfaction in order to seek balance within themselves---but they are stupid for not being able to seek other ways to satisfy themselves---they have to resort to belittling others---think about it---if they are really an inferior race---why be-little them? its like trying to be-little a dog---what does that say about you? the superior race that can only be-little a dog to make yourself feel better because of your insecurities---this is why the stupid racists are stupid.

and as far as races are concerened, looking at it intellectually---I am not sure whether some races are smarter or dumber than the other---there was evidence of IQ tests for blacks being lower than those of whites, but that can also be attributed to income, lifestyle, and other conditioning factors besides purely genetic potential for intelligence---furthermore, I am not even quite sure whether 'IQ' is really a measure of a persons 'overall intelligence'---to really know for sure---and whether we would ever really want to know the truth---we would have to take a white, black, asian, indian etc kid---since they are born until adulthood and condition them to exactly the same things; enviroment, culture, schooling schedule--lifestyle, income, etc, etc. ---and then compare IQ's---we would also have to do this for a large enough sample (like many kids) to really have definitive conclusive evidence that some races are genetically superior as far as intelligence is concerened....if you were to 'proove' this statistically---

however, intuitively---I think that asians are smarter in certain things, or I think the better words should be 'skilled' at certain things---because of their culture and their intelligence due---but at tasks that require fast skill implementation---

whites come second in this regard and then all other races----

however, this is only one part of intelligence, as far as creativity and conciousness---mathematical intelligence, I think white and asian are on the same par---and black may have more creative intelligence and than whites or asians---so there are many factors to it ---and we will never know the answer unless bio-technology advances much more---or an experiment such as I described above is implemented.

When was that established? And who believes it in the real world?

It is an illusion - that doesn't mean it has no effect (economics is an illusion too - does a hundred dollar note have any intrinsic value?) but it means we can change it.

It is an illusion - ....

??? So tell me what is NOT an illusion??? Perhaps I'm talking to one of those people who believes that..... oh, well, never mind! :)

Baron Max

??? So tell me what is NOT an illusion??? Perhaps I'm talking to one of those people who believes that..... oh, well, never mind! :)

Baron Max

*levitates two feet up* you think that's air you're breathing?

What I was actually saying, though, is that it's a societal construct. Money has value because everyone agrees / believes it has value. As far as I'm aware, gravity would work even if everyone disagreed with it. So, for example, gravity isn't an illusion.

Whoops. *falls back to earth and starts breathing again*

I didn't say anything like what ye're suggesting. ????

Krieg, if ye're making that comment about my posts, please read them again. I think you've misread most of it, or posted without reading all of it. Repost your amended comments, and I'll respond.

Baron Max


This comment was not even directed towards you, it was directed towards spidergoats post!!!

...it's a societal construct. Money has value because everyone agrees/believes it has value.

But if everyone agrees to it's value, and they have some money in their hands and others are willing to exchange it for goods and services, then how can you call it an illusion?

Baron Max

Certain racial groups/populations create the societies and everything you see around you.

Where do you think culture and politics come from? it didnt create itself.

People like to put emphasis on culture, but culture is created by a certain POPULATION of people, the same with any other ideology we have today.

Economic theories,Political Ideologies, Social ideologies, are created by certain racial POPULATIONS.

These populations of people are the BASIS of everything in history.

Geez, Reighn, that sure sounds like a racist statement to me!



Reighn, I believe that even your beloved black Africans owned and/or controlled large segments of land ...and fought their black African neighbors to keep it. And the strongest, smartest black Africans kept their land, while the weaker, stupider black Africans lost their land. See? Not just white men wanted their own land!!

Baron Max
It was meant to be racist B. I was just venting. Didn't really mean it though. I love all people ( ok... like all people). Even You and J.B. make some valid points about certain subjects. Some people are just Bastard like! Some people were born to be evil and some aren't. :D

Originally Posted by Baron Max
Why necessary? Why must different "races", cultures, religions, etc be forced to live together when they obviously don't want to?! Why do you say that it's necessary ......and worse, you also amend it by adding "...if humans are to live in peace...."

Humans ain't never gonna' live in peace as long as there's more than one fuckin' human!! Hasn't history taught us anything at all about humans and violence and war and greed and "whatever-is-the-opposite-of-compassionate"?

I just don't see how anyone can view the conditions of the world as they are at present, and have any real dreams of ....peace on Earth, goodwill towards man???? How?? How can anyone delude themselves so terribly?

Baron Max

Who said anything about "racial, religious, ethnic. and nationalist competitions"? Where did you get that in my post? Just because I suggested that integration isn't necessarily a good thing, doesn't mean that there must be such competitions between those groups.

So you don't see the not living in peace with each other as being about competitition or pecking order?

You raised questions about everything else I said but did not answer my question so here it is again:

We humans have always stole from and cheated and killed and raped each other; does this mean that making and enforcing laws banning crime was an ineficient use of human effort?



Who said anything about "enslaving" anyone? Certain that was NOT in my post, so what are you talking about and where did it come from?



Who said anything about war?

Your words: "Hasn't history taught us anything at all about humans and violence and war and greed and "whatever-is-the-opposite-of-compassionate"?

Your telling spidergoat we should not integrate because we will do bad things to each other. spidergoat is saying we must intergrate or we will do bad things to each other. I agree with spidergoat. Even if we humans stayed separate we we did bad things to each other and ended the separation by adding slavery, or any other entangling exploitation of the other, any time it benefited us to do so.

Yes we did free trade also. In our own societies we would also rob each other if we did not have laws. If we can be at relative peace with our own kind, then we can be at relative peace with other if we include them as part of us and let our laws protect all of us. If we make no effort to see the others as like us and as protected by our laws then we will start taking slaves again should it benefit us again. I bring up slavery because it is easier to look at an extreme abuse of greed than look at greed as a generality. Greed and selfishness are why we don't live in peace. We want what we want.

Now, you believe in the freedom of people to do what they want so I thought with you it is better to put the integration argument in terms of mutual benefit from eficiency rather than as an oppressive obligation to be nice.

How does free trade between segragated nations have anything to do with integration of those people? Ye're using logic where there is no logic! Nations can freely trade with each other without having to integrate and/or change each other's culture.

Do you want to kick the Indian doctors and Mexican havesters out of America? Are you familiar With David Ricardo's "Comparative advantage"? Comparative advantage also would apply to labor as well as products.

Irrational ivesting is screwing up exchange rates and therefore comparative advantage is not working as it is supposed to, but that is a whole different subject.



Originally Posted by nirakar
We can not devide up into us and them without believing that they are different from us like animals are different from us.


Sure we can! And as proof, humans have been doing that for a gazillion years or so! And "they" ARE different from us ...why does everyone try to deny the obvious? Different does NOT mean better or worse, good or bad ...it just means different.

So, you can see them as not different from us, but you ask why does everyone deny they are different. Your attacking my argument from two opposite sides. OK, Why can't people like you see that they are just like us, and ,I can prove it, We have been seing the as different from us for gazillion years and then we kill them or trade with them.







So, if we devide into us and them, then war is inevitable.



Why? Can you prove that statement in any way?

Because, to the contrary, I think it's perfectly obvious how the opposite is true ...integration has been the cause of most of the conflicts in the world today. There is cultural and religious, as well as political strife in almost every area of the world ...yet you claim that mixing these cultures, religions and political views and all will be wonderful and peaceful. How can you say that while seeing the world as it is today?

Baron Max

As proof, humans have been doing that for a gazillion years or so! Chimpanzees (98% human by DNA) studied by Goodall wage war against their neighbors. In our big cities we are choosing to exist as tribe mates with strangers. This is strange but we can do it. We don't have to kill each other. The street gangs prefer to live as chimpanzees and therefore engage in turf wars with neighboring tribes.

The thing is we are wasting so much money trying to defend against them. My friends and I don't pay to much for our defense because we chip in with all the other people for a police force that protects all groups of friends from all other groups of friends.

If we the people of the world can live as all of us non street gang people do in big cities, then we are all tribe mates. But if you think your a Crip and they are Bloods then we had better pay for weapons and spend our time standing watch and fighting. It's up to each of us to decide if we are rival street gangs or tribe mates. The choice is arbitrary. Neither choice is the truth. But choosing see us all as tribe mates allows us to share a police force and share laws and share a market and not waste money preparing for a defense against the other. If I am your strange and different neighbor and I buy a gun because I fear that you will sneak into my house at night, then you had better buy a gun because you don't know what I will do with my gun. If I did not err on the side of seing you as diferent then we would not have an arms race.

If you segregate away from the different people then you will find the differences among those who are left if you are the kind of peson who sees the differences rather than the kinship. The difference between the northern Irish Protestants and Catholics are rediculasly insignificant from my perspectives. In little Puritan Massachusetts my puritan english great great.... grandparent hung another of my puritan english great...grandparents as a witch. People who want to see differences will see differences and create problems where they didn't have to exist.

Itergegration was never the problem, bigotry was the problem.

If people can be raised to see kinship more than they see differences then the world will be more peacefull. Seing the differences is half of the problem, the other half of the problem is thinking the differences matter.

So you don't see the not living in peace with each other as being about competitition or pecking order?

Huh?? What the fuck are you asking? And how many negatives are permitted in one lousy sentence?

We humans have always stole from and cheated and killed and raped each other; does this mean that making and enforcing laws banning crime was an ineficient use of human effort?

There's a difference between making and enforcing laws for ones OWN people. In that regard, it's worth the effort. But it's NOT worth the effort to try to make and enforce laws for all of humanity ...especially those who are NOT part of ones own nation and culture.

And lest you forget ...it's okay, it's permissible, for the people of a nation to steal from, cheat, rape and kill the people of OTHER nations! They're the enemy, dammit, they should be cheated, raped and killed ...that's what enemies are for!!

Your telling spidergoat we should not integrate because we will do bad things to each other. Spidergoat is saying we must intergrate or we will do bad things to each other. I agree with spidergoat.

Well, my point is backed up by a gazillion years of human existence and experiences. Spider's is nothing but a hope n' a prayer, or worse, an idyllic dream of fantasy and peace and love and ....all that psycho-babble bullshit.

Even if we humans stayed separate we we did bad things to each other and ended the separation by adding slavery, or ...

Oh, hey, it's okay to enslave your enemies!! The horror of it all is when you end slavery and try to force the people to accept the former slaves as your friends and countrymen!! If the slaves had remained slaves, i.e., not forced integration, then everything would have been just grand!

Now, you believe in the freedom of people to do what they want so I thought with you it is better to put the integration argument in terms of mutual benefit from eficiency rather than as an oppressive obligation to be nice.

No, the people of that ONE nation should be free, etc. NOT all people, for god's sake! The people of other nations are to be used, cheated, enslaved, raped and killed for the benefit of ones own nation! A nation does not make laws and rules for ALL people, but only for itself and its people.

Do you want to kick the Indian doctors and Mexican havesters out of America?

No, we should use them to our benefit, but not allow them the privileges of being nationals. And more to the point, we should keep them isolated from the general public as much as possible.

So, you can see them as not different from us, but you ask why does everyone deny they are different.

Sure they're different! And if they're different, then they should be treated differently.

...for a police force that protects all groups of friends from all other groups of friends.

The police do NOT protect ...they come in after the fact and pick up the dead bodies and investigate in order to exact revenge for the crime! But they do NOT protect anyome ....and the sooner you learn that, the sooner you'll be able to sleep peacefully at night (with a big gun beside you for proetection!).

...If people can be raised to see kinship more than they see differences then the world will be more peacefull.

Ahh, yes ...another one of your idyllic dreams of fantasyland, huh? Any time someone wants to make some idiotic point about human existence, etc., they just make liberal use of the word "if" as though to prove their point. Which it doesn't and never will. You and others like you, can't see humans for what they actually are ...you see humans as wonderful, compassionate, law-abiding creatures with love and charity for all others. How sick is that when compared to the realities of the world???

Baron Max

hahaha.

Nirakar, you cant seriously believe in this "peace" business unless you are living in a fantasy world.

Life is about survival, conflict will always exist, even in nature. It is time to grow up and stop living in a deluded fantasy.

You see, Nirakar, the problem is that you cant make peace with people that HATE you. This becomes a self destructive cycle in which one must accept reality.

Inorder for people to live in harmony in an integrated society, they must compromise their beliefs, this is the problem, they will not do it.

But if everyone agrees to it's value, and they have some money in their hands and others are willing to exchange it for goods and services, then how can you call it an illusion?

Baron Max

Because of little things called inflation ... and Great Depressions ... you probably haven't heard of them.

And lest you forget ...it's okay, it's permissible, for the people of a nation to steal from, cheat, rape and kill the people of OTHER nations! They're the enemy, dammit, they should be cheated, raped and killed ...that's what enemies are for!!

Baron Max

I get the impression you would have campaigned against the unification of Germany if you'd lived there and in that era. "Those bloody Prussians! Good for nothing baby-eating huns! We don't need their type in Hamburg!"

Because of little things called inflation ... and Great Depressions ... you probably haven't heard of them.

But aren't those illusions, too? Or are you now adjusting your ideas about illusions?

Baron Max

Is peace with Germany and Japan better than war? Why do we fight wars if not to resolve conflicts and have peace? Being complacent about the violence of war leads to endless war for profit. After all, the weapons of war are profitable to make and sell. Every terrorist does what they do in response to a military occupation of one kind or another.

And lest you forget ...it's okay, it's permissible, for the people of a nation to steal from, cheat, rape and kill the people of OTHER nations! They're the enemy, dammit, they should be cheated, raped and killed ...that's what enemies are for!!
This might have worked in the past, but nuclear weapons are proliferating, due in part to this rationale. Someday soon, every nation will get nuclear weapons and the human race will complete it's systematic destruction of the Earth. See, I can be pessimistic, too. I'm not living in some liberal fantasy world, I know that war is necessary sometimes, but unlike you, I think if there is any tiny ray of hope for humanity, we should go for that instead. If we are already in a dire situation, how can it possibly hurt?

And lest you forget ...it's okay, it's permissible, for the people of a nation to steal from, cheat, rape and kill the people of OTHER nations! They're the enemy, dammit, they should be cheated, raped and killed ...that's what enemies are for!!

Oh, hey, it's okay to enslave your enemies!! The horror of it all is when you end slavery and try to force the people to accept the former slaves as your friends and countrymen!! If the slaves had remained slaves, i.e., not forced integration, then everything would have been just grand!

No, the people of that ONE nation should be free, etc. NOT all people, for god's sake! The people of other nations are to be used, cheated, enslaved, raped and killed for the benefit of ones own nation! A nation does not make laws and rules for ALL people, but only for itself and its people.

Sure they're different! And if they're different, then they should be treated differently.

You and others like you, can't see humans for what they actually are ...you see humans as wonderful, compassionate, law-abiding creatures with love and charity for all others. How sick is that when compared to the realities of the world???

Baron Max

LOL, It's a funny game you play. I wonder what the most extreme position we could get you to take, just for the sake of being contrary, would be.

...I know that war is necessary sometimes, but unlike you, I think if there is any tiny ray of hope for humanity, we should go for that instead. If we are already in a dire situation, how can it possibly hurt?

How can it hurt? Ooh, how 'bout WORSE dire stuations?! A good example is nukes for Iran ....if we just let them have nukes, because that's "the thing" to do for hu-fuckin'-manity, then they really ARE as warlike as I think ...and they nuke half of the Middle East? Now isn't that worse than the present situation???? And I could make up thousands of similar, real-life situations with equally dire consequences.

The problem with your scenario is that ye're seeking or searching for the BEST consequences, but if the worst happens, you'll suffer little or nothing. That ain't very nice for those who might suffer horribly if your ideas fail.

When a person "gambles", there should be consequences for failure. You make chancy gambles, but stand to lose nothing. That's not gambling or diplomacy, that's fuckin' dreaming!!

Baron Max

LOL, It's a funny game you play. I wonder what the most extreme position we could get you to take, just for the sake of being contrary, would be.

Oh, I don't know ...try it some time.

When the post about the Chinese blowing the head off that girl who was suspected/captured selling drugs, I stood up for the Chinese police and applauded their actions. Wasn't that "contrary" enough for you wussy-dreamin', fantasyland travelers and weak, lily-livered, doo-gooder liberals?

Baron Max

I don't think Iran should have nukes, but on the other hand, if we do another illegal invasion, even Iran's moderates will be against us. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Diplomacy, obeying treaties, forming treaties, respecting the UN, these are ways to solve problems without creating more hate than there need be.

Bush's strategy of preemptive war is also a gamble. He bet that moderate muslims would respect our power rather than hate our unilateral actions. Take a good guess which one was the actual result?

He bet that moderate muslims would respect our power rather than hate our unilateral actions. Take a good guess which one was the actual result?

Well, that's certainly not clear to me ...how is it to you? I mean, the Iraqis voted in overwhelming numbers recently, and they're preparing to do it again. They're voting for their own leaders for the first time in their history ...and they're voting in overwhelming numbers.

While, at the same time, only a very few Iraqis, with the help of other nationalities, are waging a terrorist campaign against not only the Americans, but against their own people.

No, Spider, I don't think we "know" just what the "moderate Muslims" are thinking right now. ...even with all the negative press, it's pretty clear that the Muslims of Iraq aren't so one-sided as you seem to think.

Diplomacy, obeying treaties, forming treaties, respecting the UN, these are ways to solve problems without creating more hate than there need be.

But they all have to do that ...if only one is a rogue nation, it causes enormous problems in the world. And worse, since the UN ain't got no fuckin' enforcement troops, then the rogue nation can do any-fuckin'-thing it wants to do without anyone to stop it. Diplomacy sucks unless everyone, EVERYONE, agrees to abide by the decisions ......and they virtually NEVER do agree! So all the fuckin' diplomacy is just more hot air.

Baron Max

Oh, really?
Yes, really.

do you have evidence for your belief, or is it just a gut feeling?

The evidence is right here, in America, where you also happen to find yours. There are many races that get along with each other. For example, I myself have friends belonging to the Korean, Indian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Native American, Mexican, white, and black "races" (just off the top of my head, I can probably list a few more). This is due to geographic reasons. I am not sure of the degree of heterogeneity of the place where you live in Texas, but here in S. California it is obviously very diverse. I believe you derive most of your pessimism about the so-called 'race' issue from media reports about violence and hate crimes. Let me tell you : those always make the headlines. But how many times do you find news of the gazillions of new cross-cultural friendships or the sheer diversity in neighborhoods? Almost never, because stimulating articles (i.e. violence, hate crimes) receive better ratings. It's the same reason why car chases are broadcast commercial-free. It's part of human nature, but you cannot let the overall picture decieve you.

As a supplement, gut feelings do have an empirical likelihood of being correct. There have been a few studies done on this.


Humans haven't found any ways of "getting along" with other
I agree with this statement, if it applies to the human species as a whole with respect to utter perfection.

So why apply it between 'racial' groups? Once again, many people are confusing this delusional concept of "race" with lurking variables such as culture.

For example, I myself have friends belonging to the Korean, Indian, Japanese, Vietnamese, Native American, Mexican, white, and black "races" (just off the top of my head, I can probably list a few more).

The statistics for just one person does NOT make what's usually termed "convincing evidence". Besides, how do you know that they "get along" with you? They could just be lying so as not to cause trouble, but inside, they hate your guts.

And lest you forget, in the USA, we have laws which hold people somewhat in check. People who might otherwise assault you or kill you don't do so because ...well, our laws say it ain't nice to do that! So even while they hate your guts, they can't do anything lest they be imprisoned for it. That's not always the case in other nations/areas of the world.

But how many times do you find news of the gazillions of new cross-cultural friendships or the sheer diversity in neighborhoods?

I'm sure taht there are a few black-white friendships in Los Angeles, but that didn't stop the riots, did it? A few peoples' friendships don't prove anything with regard to the racial hatred and bigotry that's prevalent.

I see from your post that ye're the type of person who refuses to acknowledge racial problems because of your own personal experiences. You like a black man, so therefore, there is no racial problems in all of the world! You simply refuse to see it or talk about it or acknowledge it .....therefore it all goes away, huh? :)

Baron Max

... gut feelings do have an empirical likelihood of being correct. ...Racism can best be described as a "gut feeling," so I do not think you want to state this.

Baron Max is correct, Racism is a real problem, although I do not think he is concerned much about the aspect of it that I am.

Racism is based on early childhood learning to hate/ fear etc. the people your parents hate/ fear not a rational consideration of the cost / benefit ratio to society. Some very good brains are in minority bodies, with wonderful potential, but they are picking up trash etc. instead of perhaps finding a universal cure for cancer.

Society pays a terrible price for its discrimination, sub standard education offered to its minorities (and even the majority, called women). I acknowledge that many crimes (I think this is Baron Max's main concern) results from disadvantage, angry, destructive, ignorant, people, but there will always be criminals, even from the best-educated classes and perhaps they do much more damage to society ($16,000 dollar shower curtains and many people with loss of their retirement incomes because of these white-collar criminals, etc.). Therefore, I am more concerned about the loss of “cancers cures” etc. by stupid waste of good brains, etc.

The statistics for just one person does NOT make what's usually termed "convincing evidence". Besides, how do you know that they "get along" with you? They could just be lying so as not to cause trouble, but inside, they hate your guts.Such insight! This must explain why my wife occasionally makes me iron my own shirts. Inside she is a seething sea of racial hatred against whitey.

I will be laughing when all of Western society is destroyed, and you are proven WRONG.

I could use South Africa,Haiti,Rhodesia, etc. as examples of what happens when Europeans are displaced.

But i will leave it to you're small mind to reach conclusions.

You are quite attached to Western Society, then? Your solution would be to kill those whose views is the anithesis of yours? Your posts on this and other threads suggest this is true. Your belief in evolution as destruction of the weak, rather than survival of the fit, would encourage you to pursue this approach. Everything you have written to date in these fora leads me to conclude you are a white supremacist who approves of Hitler's final solution.

Now, on a purely practical point, what exactly am I going to be proved wrong in?

I am not just talking about ethnicity, i am talking about political and cultural differences which have and always will divide humans.

People that believe they can change this are deluding themselves.

I am not just talking about ethnicity, i am talking about political and cultural differences which have and always will divide humans.

People that believe they can change this are deluding themselves.
hmmmm, i red something by you yesterady which i found insghtful, but not this. this is you deciding that we are defeated, because of some presumption you carry round in your head that we are doomed to fragmentation. as long as you believe tis it will be a self-fulfilling prphecy. forthe stories/mythswe tell ourselves conjure up the universe we see and feel..!!!

it is no so. even if you take a look at Sufism. that religion is much more plurastic than fundamentalist Islam, ashave been all forms of pluralistic belief systems.......and theirhavebeen cultures in past which have been much more open and accepting

the extreme form of your belief structured point of view is of course, Satanism which stronlgy believes humas are visciously violent and will never ever get on, hence the satanist is willing to 'crush' anyone who gets in his way!

as you are what you eat, you aremoreso what you THINK

Damn, Duendy and Ophiolite in agreement twice in the same 24 hour period. Send out an alert to all air traffic controllers - a plague of flying pigs may be expected at any time.

Studies going back over 50 years have repeatedly arrived at the same conclusion -- racists have lower IQs than non-racists. Racism is being used by you to attribute negative connotations to people who belittle others for something which cannot be helped, i.e. their race, but perhaps intelligence itself cannot be helped, making you intelligencist. If you want to attack racists for something perhaps you should choose something else.

Baron Max is correct, Racism is a real problem, although I do not think he is concerned much about the aspect of it that I am.

Concerned about it? Isn't that like being concerned breathing?! We're such damned fools to think that we can change how humans feel and think ...about anything, including racism. I would also caution all of you that if we should find such a "cure", say by genetic manipulation, what else is it that you'd like to change about humans? Just how far will you go to see things as YOU think things "should" be? Who is right, and who is wrong? And more to the point, who decides?

Society pays a terrible price for its discrimination, ...

It's society's decision what price they wish to pay for anything.

Society also pays a "terrible price" for our "freedom of internal combustion engines", too, but we keep right on paying it, don't we? Society pays a "terrible price" for the "freedom of industrial products", causing untold pollution, but we continue to pay that price by supporting all of the products that are the result.

Or would you, for example, attempt to force society to quit paying those "terrible costs"? ...stop buying computers because making them is causing pollution? ...stop buying cars because making and using them is causeing pollution?

Ain't no different to the "terrible price" that society pays for discrimination and racial and cultural hatred and/or dislike ....or wanting a society that's more uniform in belief and race?

Therefore, I am more concerned about the loss of “cancers cures” etc. by stupid waste of good brains, etc.

There are too fuckin' many people in the world now, and you want to try to save more?? Why, for god's sake? Every-damned-where you look, there are too damned many people ...everywhere you turn, you bump into another fuckin' human, some of whom hate your guts, and you want to save them?? Hell, if anything, we need MORE cancer, MORE diseases, MORE deaths!

Baron Max

Society also pays a "terrible price" for our "freedom of internal combustion engines", too, but we keep right on paying it, don't we? .........Or would you, for example, attempt to force society to quit paying those "terrible costs"? ...No. I would attempt to dissuade them. I would ask them to think about benefits that were long term, for them, their children, their grandchildren and humanity. I would seek to persuade them of some of the ways this could be achieved.

We're such damned fools to think that we can change how humans feel and think Baron Max I have previously accused you of being stupid and ignorant. I trust you understand those were cheap debating tricks. [Why would I waste my expensive ones on you?] However, are you serious about this statement. It has been demonstrated time and again throughout history hat peoples attitudes can be changed by dynamic leadership; that people's attititudes can be changed by education. We do not need to resort to chemical or genetic tricks to induce such changes.
You asked who decides what changes are made. I have a left wing, tree hugger answer for you: those with the most inclusive, peaceful agenda. In the long run evolution favours those who co-operate, not those who believe in 'nature, red in tooth and claw'. That's what got us this far. Do you really want to be left behind?

No. I would attempt to dissuade them. I would ask them to think about benefits that were long term, for them, their children, their grandchildren and humanity.

That attempt has been going on for a long, long time ...with little or no positive results that I can see! Oh, other than passing harsher laws which are, in and of themselves, racist in order to prevent racial crimes! Hmm, that's interesting, isn't it ...racial/prejudicial laws to prevent racial/prejudical crimes????

Baron Max I have previously accused you of being stupid and ignorant.

Well, I certainly hope I've done nothing to change your mind about that!

...those with the most inclusive, peaceful agenda. In the long run evolution favours those who co-operate, not those who believe in 'nature, red in tooth and claw'. That's what got us this far.

Got us this far??? And with all of the violence and death and killing going on in the world today, you want to accept that as "peaceful and progressive"???