Whats so bad about Racism? I'm white and I expect that almost everyone non-white would have some level of negative association with whites!

Didn't we all evolve to protect and prefer our own genetic peers? We are products of evolution, its within our own interests.

Therefore, surely we all, on some level expect racism against which ever race we are? So why is racism such a big deal? We are clearly built to be racist on some level and we have all dealt with this since john from the next village wondered over 50,000 years ago!

There's nothing wrong with racism.

We should all be free to hate or dislike anyone that we choose. Some people hate fat people; some people hate skinny people; some people hate ugly people; some people hate Muslims; some people hate Christians; some people hate people who hate other people; some people....., well, you get the picture. It's called life, it's called reality, and no amount of idealistic bullshit psycho-babble is going to change that.

No, there's nothing wrong with racism ...any more than there's nothing wrong with "fatism" or "skinny-ism" or....

Baron Max

Whats so bad about Racism? I'm white and I expect that almost everyone non-white would have some level of negative association with whites! Didn't we all evolve to protect and prefer our own genetic peers? We are products of evolution, its within our own interests. Therefore, surely we all, on some level expect racism against which ever race we are? So why is racism such a big deal? We are clearly built to be racist on some level and we have all dealt with this since john from the next village wondered over 50,000 years ago!It was only about 12,000 years ago, the end of the Mesolithic era. We were still nomadic hunter-gatherers living in tribes that were basically large extended families. We needed the instinct to distrust people we don't know because by definition they were intruders on our hunting and gathering territory, which could not support a larger population.

What's "wrong" with racism is that it was only a useful instinct 12,000 years ago. As soon as we started building cities we had to learn to live harmoniously and cooperatively with strangers. You have to be able to trust strangers in order for civilization to function.

Our "genetic peers" were originally only our own close relatives. As we developed farming and settled into villages, we included nearby family units. They were closely related to us because we traded brides at the summer festivals when there was enough food to call a truce. In cities we extended the definition even further. Our "genetic peers" became people who speak the same language and have similar customs.

As we expanded the cities into nations we had to keep extending it. Now we were including people who were slightly different in language, appearance, and traditions. But we found this worth the effort because larger communities are more prosperous (due to division of labor and economy of scale).

Eventually we discovered that there is no limit on the size of a community. We reached a point of diminishing returns on economic growth, but we found that our culture was being tremendously enriched by the joining together of so many disparate tribes. We also found that since within the nation's borders peace between the citizens is almost universal, larger nations bring more peaceful times. The term "Pax Romana" is still with us. You could walk from Palestine to Brittany and be treated as a member of the same tribe by all of the people you met. This was unprecedented.

Today we are on the verge of creating a planet-wide civilization of one nation. It will have an economy of unprecedented prosperity, a culture encompassing all motifs, and the peace we have been dreaming of.

But it won't happen if we hang onto our negative associations with people who are not of "our tribe."

Our gigantic forebrains give us the unique ability among all animals to override our instincts with learned and reasoned behavior. We long ago learned to make peace with "John from the next village." Now it's time to make peace with the fellow with the unpronounceable name, from the other side of the planet.

We can do it.

Racism is an aspect of ignorance. You might think that you are inherently racist, but when you start thinking others are like that, you need to have yourself checked for brain damage.

Whats so bad about Racism? I'm white and I expect that almost everyone non-white would have some level of negative association with whites!

Didn't we all evolve to protect and prefer our own genetic peers? We are products of evolution, its within our own interests.

Therefore, surely we all, on some level expect racism against which ever race we are? So why is racism such a big deal? We are clearly built to be racist on some level and we have all dealt with this since john from the next village wondered over 50,000 years ago!

We are built to be prejudiced, not racist. There is a huge difference. Race has nothing ot do with genetics, it's appearance, if you look like a certain race then you just are, even if you arent.

Our gigantic forebrains give us the unique ability among all animals to override our instincts with learned and reasoned behavior.

Hmm, seeing all of the violence and hatred in the world, we don't seem to be using that ability very well, do we? And all that, of course, after a gazillion years on the planet and much of it being forced to live with those that we don't want to live with!

We long ago learned to make peace with "John from the next village."

We did?? When? As I see it, the only way we're living peacefully with "John" is because of the threat of imprisonment if we don't! And I'm sure that you're aware that in the Middle East, "John" don't seem to be getting on so peacefully with "Mahmoud". So....?

Now it's time to make peace with the fellow with the unpronounceable name, from the other side of the planet.

Ye're just full of those silly little witicisms of idealism, ain't ya'? ..and almost always without a single shred of evidence to show that it's actually possible in the real world. Your dream world must be a really nice place ....do you do there often, Fraggle?? :D

We can do it.

Nope, we can't. I'm sorry, Fraggle, but a gazillion years of human life should be proof enough that it just won't happen. Of course, viewing such solid evidence through your rose-colored glasses makes it tough to see reality, don't it!

Baron Max

Racism is an aspect of ignorance.

Hmm, and just how many of the sciforum members have you called "ignorant" and other such derogatory terms? You shouldn't talk about such idealism, Lixluke, because you're showing your hippo-criticism for all to see clearly.

Baron Max

We are built to be prejudiced, not racist. There is a huge difference.

No, there ain't a huge difference! If one is prejudiced against people with black skin color, then they're racist ....which is exaclty one and the same.

Baron Max

It was only about 12,000 years ago, the end of the Mesolithic era. We were still nomadic hunter-gatherers living in tribes that were basically large extended families. We needed the instinct to distrust people we don't know because by definition they were intruders on our hunting and gathering territory, which could not support a larger population.

Tribalism has nothing to do with race, it might have a genetic basis but it's not racial or appearance based. Example, gangs are tribes, a tribe is a group of families with a common ancestor, a common culture, a common language, etc. A tribe is not a "race" because a lot of people who are from the same tribe, look vastly different. Hispanic is a tribe for example, it's not a race.

What's "wrong" with racism is that it was only a useful instinct 12,000 years ago. As soon as we started building cities we had to learn to live harmoniously and cooperatively with strangers. You have to be able to trust strangers in order for civilization to function.

Tribalism was the instinct, not racism. Tribalism is still useful today. Racism was never useful and didnt exist 12,000 years ago. Prejudice is useful and it's how we decide who our friends are in the first place.

Our "genetic peers" were originally only our own close relatives. As we developed farming and settled into villages, we included nearby family units. They were closely related to us because we traded brides at the summer festivals when there was enough food to call a truce. In cities we extended the definition even further. Our "genetic peers" became people who speak the same language and have similar customs.

Wrong. Yes the cultural part helps to distinguish who your genetic peers are, but it's also still tribal. Everyone in America is a genetic peer but they are not all the same tribe. Different religions, different ideas on stuff like race, divides America up into factions of tribes. The Amish are a tribe, the Mormons are a tribe, the Jews are tribal. Blacks and Hispanics have tribes, anything from gangs like bloods and crips, to the corporate conservatives.

People want to believe in race because they want to ignore the tribal differences between people of the same appearance, out of laziness. The bloods and crips are opposite tribes, but a racist would see all black people as gang members. Genetically, a lot of this country has some of the same ancestors, in fact hispanics are the same genetically as Americans, basically it's exactly the same race, just different appearance.

The same thing happened in South America that happened in North America, you had the spanish who conquered the native Americans, you have Africans, and through inter-breeding you now have hispanics. In America, you had Native Americans, Africans and all sorts of Europeans, and they mixed, the result is you the same. The same genetics are spread all across America, but Americans divide on appearance.

How many people on this forum have a native American ancestor? I bet quite a few. That alone would make a lot of people relatives. However people do not usually claim their native American ancestors, they usually claim their European ancestors, UNLESS they actually look Native American, then they claim their native American ancestors. The same applies to blacks, it's the same way, most black people claim African American or Black, even though the majority have Native American or White Ancestors, and in some case have more than that.

So genetically, this is a mixed country, you have so many people here who have been here for so long, that at this point, almost everyone has that one family member of a different "race". It's rare for a family to be all one thing. If you are European but you are a mixed breed of European, you are mixed genetically even if you are the white race.

So people have to learn to seperate genetics from race because race is only based on appearances. If someone looks white, they are white no matter who their ancestors were or what their genes say. If someone looks black they are black no matter who their parents were. I hope this explained the difference between tribe, race, and genetics. Race was invented, tribe is natural, and genetics are the result of who your parents had sex with.

As we expanded the cities into nations we had to keep extending it. Now we were including people who were slightly different in language, appearance, and traditions. But we found this worth the effort because larger communities are more prosperous (due to division of labor and economy of scale).

Eventually we discovered that there is no limit on the size of a community. We reached a point of diminishing returns on economic growth, but we found that our culture was being tremendously enriched by the joining together of so many disparate tribes. We also found that since within the nation's borders peace between the citizens is almost universal, larger nations bring more peaceful times. The term "Pax Romana" is still with us. You could walk from Palestine to Brittany and be treated as a member of the same tribe by all of the people you met. This was unprecedented.

Today we are on the verge of creating a planet-wide civilization of one nation. It will have an economy of unprecedented prosperity, a culture encompassing all motifs, and the peace we have been dreaming of.

But it won't happen if we hang onto our negative associations with people who are not of "our tribe."

Our gigantic forebrains give us the unique ability among all animals to override our instincts with learned and reasoned behavior. We long ago learned to make peace with "John from the next village." Now it's time to make peace with the fellow with the unpronounceable name, from the other side of the planet.

We can do it.[/QUOTE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Tribalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism
http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft158004rs/

No, there ain't a huge difference! If one is prejudiced against people with black skin color, then they're racist ....which is exaclty one and the same.

Baron Max

I'd think there are more important things to judge individuals on than their skin. I think that form of prejudice is ignorant. It's like judging women by their breast sizes. It's ignorant.

Hmm, and just how many of the sciforum members have you called "ignorant" and other such derogatory terms? You shouldn't talk about such idealism, Lixluke, because you're showing your hippo-criticism for all to see clearly.
Wrong.
Racism is an aspect of ignorance.
Just because a person believes he has been built to be racist on some level does not mean others have been built to think like that as well.

I have my own paradigm growing up, and so do a great many kids. Which is tha paradigm that such racist thinking is completely unknown to us, and cannot be understood by us.

I'm sure that for some people growing up their paradigm might have been racist thinking, and therefore they cannot comprehend that any other person could have been born different from them.

Fact. Many many people are born not racist or with little understanding of such an attitude. I personally not only care for such an attitude, but consider it impractical, idiotic, and ignorant.

Whats so bad about Racism?

Racism leads to extreme aversion and / or extreme hostility. Extreme aversion leads to ignorance and suffering. Extreme hostility leads to murder and suffering. Hostility, suffering, and murder suffocate adaptation. The law of nature is "survival of the most adaptable".

I'd think there are more important things to judge individuals on than their skin. I think that form of prejudice is ignorant.

What you think means very damned little, ya' know that? You do, right?

It's like judging women by their breast sizes. It's ignorant.

And we still do it ....and probably will until men finally become "women"!!

Baron Max

Wrong. Racism is an aspect of ignorance.

That's what racists say about people like you!

Baron Max

Today we are on the verge of creating a planet-wide civilization of one nation. It will have an economy of unprecedented prosperity, a culture encompassing all motifs, and the peace we have been dreaming of.

But it won't happen if we hang onto our negative associations with people who are not of "our tribe."

That means a "non-culture": it's an unspecialized, directionless mess. No thanks.

I prefer having culture to being a cultureless Grey Race, thanks, and the best minds in history agree with me.

Put a little black toddler together with a little white toddler and they will not fear or hate one another - they will play together.
Racism is not genetic, nor instinctual.

Put a little black toddler together with a little white toddler and they will not fear or hate one another - they will play together.
Racism is not genetic, nor instinctual.

Non-sequitur.

Non-sequitur.

How so?

The person who started this thread claims that racism is a product of evolution.

A "cultureless Grey Race" is a global direction. I have yet to determine its longterm value. I would assume that such a hodgepodge would invent its own culture.

Put a little black toddler together with a little white toddler and they will not fear or hate one another - they will play together.
Racism is not genetic, nor instinctual.

So, a toddler is a good example of what a fully-formed human being would be like with no cultural learning? Are you saying that there is no more natural development to be had?

I disagree. It would be very difficult to tease apart the genetic, hormonal, and cultural elements of further growth. Put a male toddler and a female toddler together and the male does not want to have sex with the female, or see her breasts. Does this mean that sexuality and fascination with breasts is a learned, cultural figment? Of course not, these desires come with hormonal development that is not triggered until puberty.

Which is why your example is worthless, and just the sort of play-thinking that leads to poor social re-engineering. For all we know, prejudice is not turned on in the development of the brain until humans are more independently mobile. Perhaps they just rely on their parents' prejudices to protect them under the same umbrella for awhile. This hypothesis would be supported by the same (anecdotal) data that you threw out.

With all respect,
swivel

A "cultureless Grey Race" is a global direction. I have yet to determine its longterm value. I would assume that such a hodgepodge would invent its own culture.

A culture of McDonald's and TV. Good work!

American business is working hard on this.

Put a little black toddler together with a little white toddler and they will not fear or hate one another - they will play together. Racism is not genetic, nor instinctual.

That says nothing whatsoever about what will happen when they grow up into adults. Thus your conclusion has no factual evidence and is, as most would suspect, purely emotional.

I think racism is instinctual ...in the same way as all of the other animals in the world that want/need to be with animals of their own kind. That our "new world philosophy" tries to change that, it's only really forced people to lie about how they really feel. ...to hide their true racism, however avid or mild.

Baron Max

That's what racists say about people like you!
Oh no. Racists are saying I am ignorant for not being racist. Or maybe because I do not believe everybody is born with racist paradigm. Racists calling anybody ignorant. That's a real good one. What's next? Cats calling fish land lovers? Is it not ok to be racist against racists?