Who'd win in a full-scale war?


The Central Galactic Union, at the height of its power (about 6311, before the Zephyr War)

against

The First Galactic Empire, power between ANH & TESB. They can use all of the extended universe technolgogies between the two movies.

The Rebel Alliance sides with the CGU, seeing them as liberators.
Its full-scale war, and WOMDs are allowed.

who wins?

I'm leaning towards CGU, even though Empire could probably take out a big chunk of thier forces. The CGU just has way too many Dreadnoughts for the Imps to sustain a fleet engagement. The CGU also will not hesitate to use nuclear/biological/chemical weapons on Imperial-owned planets to wipe out populations.
Now, imperial infantry could probably screw over CGU infantry. But, the CGU almost always gets screwed over in infantry. Hell, thy're still using .308cal autorifles. But, of course, Cockroach-class and Scorpio-class attack vehicles could probably down the ATATs easily. hell, ATATs dont have energy shields, but the Cockroach does.
CGU could win, but they'd need help from the REbs, because the Empire could still use thier superweapons and massive SSDs.
But, of course, the CGU could send in the GSS Maximilian....but that's a thing i'm just not gonna mess with.

Having fun? Im gonna have to say care bears because they have love powers and that would kill a cockroach class attack vehicle.

the crap are you talking aboot?
the 'roach's shields would stop it, then the Plasma Cannons would fry those bears.
roasted and ready to eat.
heh.
but seriously.

Sarcasm.

i know.
sarcasm is good.
sarcasm is funny.
who'd win: CGU or 1st Empire?

Neither. It doesn't matter.

i know.
but i want to know.
from a speculative point of view.

Then I would like to ask you two 'speculative' questions:
"Who the hell are the CGU?"
"If they wipe out populations, how come the rebels are siding with them?"

1) Central Galactic Union, an interstellar organization of the Milky Way Galaxy. It's capitol is Munich, Earth. They a quasi-fascist society, ruled by a Dictator who presses the doctrine of Human Dominance over Alien Species'. They have a very large military, and have already conquered one Alien Race: the mighty Zaaroft Imperium.

2) the Rebs see them as liberators from the Empire. The REbs have wiped out populations from Imperial planets, as well, using chemical and biological weapons. The rebels are terrorists, they're use whatever help they can get, even if in means the CGU.

*bump*

I would actually think that The Rebs would see the CGU as tyrannical and opt to join the pirate militias. Hence I voted for them.

Huh.
You have a point there.
And actually the Empire fighting the CGU anyway is kind of pointless, since both have governments that are based in "human-supremacy"...it's simply that the CGU is even more radical with thier antialien policies, opting to kill them rather than enslave them.
CGU's crazy people.

Since we are using the expanded universe, I thought I would point out that the empire had many biological and chemical weapons to use on their enemies. Also, who are the other forces, CSA, Hutts, Chiss, Vong, etc. siding with?

Regardless, the Empire would win because at the particular time they had Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'Nuruodo. He was unstoppable in space because of his tactics abilities. Superior forces, superior technology? Doesn't matter, Thrawn had psychology on his side, and he was able to think about his enemy on the subconscious level of their mind, and he could predict their actions better than the Force. His downfall was in trusting his bodyguards, but at the described time they had absolutely no reason to come after him, so good luck.

I just want to clear up a doubt I had for some time right now: is Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'Nuruodo the same as Grand Admiral Thrawn?

Yes, they are one and the same. Mitth'raw'Nuruodo was Thrawn's name in Cheunh, the Chiss language. By taking the last two letters of the first name, the middle syllable, and the first letter of the family name, we get th'raw'n, or Thrawn.

Regardless, the Empire would win because at the particular time they had Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'Nuruodo. He was unstoppable in space because of his tactics abilities. Superior forces, superior technology? Doesn't matter, Thrawn had psychology on his side, and he was able to think about his enemy on the subconscious level of their mind, and he could predict their actions better than the Force. His downfall was in trusting his bodyguards, but at the described time they had absolutely no reason to come after him, so good luck.
And you think that for some reason CGU's GRand Admiral Khor won't kick Thrawn's little blue ass? Especially when the CGU brings in all of it's fleets.
The thousand-fleet navy, it is called. Each fleet has about 20 starcarrier groups. Each 'carrier group has about 100 ships.
Do the math. The Impie's are outnumbered, and when the CGU miliary does it's weapon refits, the imps are gonna be outgunned. Pure and simple/

Thrawn's tactics are far superior to any. He knew more about his enemies than they knew about themselves. He didn't even have to have heard of them. Seeing them fight for seconds alone was enough to make him understand how victory would be gained. If your numbers are simply too great, he could use various hit and run tactics, he understood the perfect utilization of light strike craft and fighters as well. At his direction (partially) the first Imperial assault fighters were equipped with hyperdrives. He knew psychologically exactly what to expect from an enemy, what not to expect, and when to expect the unexpected. He was unstoppable.

That still won't save him from being oblierated in a massive salvo of main gun shots from Dreadnoughts and Superdreadnoughts, and the CGN's twin flagships, the GSS Maxamilian and the GSS Eta Rycon.
Here's a hint: The flagships are essentially unstoppable. It's shielding will take months to take down, it's armour won't even have a scratch if you hit it with a superlaser, and it's main gun would obliterate Thrawn's fleet before he can even blink.

P.S) Khor would kick Thrawns ass. He used a fleet of only 143 ships and wiped out a large armada of 2,000 technologically superior Zaaroft cruisers, plus 20 Zaaroft Supercruisers. He was the only Admiral capable of defeating the Zaaroft Warlord Psylias in battle. And, let me tell you, Psylias would absolutely decimate Thrawn's forces. Easily.

Please, give me a break. You are not saying why your adrmiral's tactics are so good, they just are. Maybe to his own pathetic enemies, but how can you compare him with no reasoning other than simply saying he's better. Thrawn could have that guy screaming for his mommy using a single Corellian Gunship and a pair of TIE Avengers.

Admiral Khor has an uncanny ability to lead his men, much akin to Napoleon, and commands enormous respect from both his fleet, and the entire military. He was able to use a very small amount of ships and completely destroy a larger fleet of enemy ships, which might I add, are superior in nearly every way to CGU ships. He was able to do this precisely because he could predict his enemy's movements so well, so accurately, not too differently from Thrawn, just on a much bigger scale.
Of course, they can just send in the GSS Eta Rycon. That could wipe out the entire Imperial navy on it's own, by sheer brute strength.

Since we are using the expanded universe, I thought I would point out that the empire had many biological and chemical weapons to use on their enemies. Also, who are the other forces, CSA, Hutts, Chiss, Vong, etc. siding with?
For debates sake, the CSA and Chiss help the Empire, a little bit.
The Hutts and Vong stay as far away from the conflict as possible. Remember, this VS is during the time of the Empire, and the Vong aren't stupid enough to attack the Empire.

Admiral Khor has an uncanny ability to lead his men, much akin to Napoleon,

Heh heh, Napoleon. We saw where his tactics got him, didn't we...

In the meantime, Thrawn was incredibly adept at judging all elements of warfare, and at any given time he had a multitude of plots running through his mind. He never soured, and he never angered. Even in his exile and capture he had warrior's honor, and within this he hid his own agenda. He was multifaceted in his views upon strategy, and his tactics were everevolving in the face of adversity. He never waisted opportunity to learn and was very opportunistic.

Uhhhh, the CGU is a bunch of humans right? If so, Talon Karrde, who was employed by Thrawn, could have his organization infiltrate and gather any form of information through some means.

Does the CGU have something to combat the Force? This is an honest question. Anyway, besides Palpatine and Vader, there were several "Hands" employed by the emperor (including Mara Jade) as well. Also, Palpatine's knowledge of the Darksisters of Dathomir could aid as well. Thrawn could use someone like this in the same capacity that he used Joruus C'baoth.

Napoleon got defeated because he made stupid mistakes. Mistakes that CGU military leaders have learned from.

Well, Khor is similar, in a way, to Thrawn in the way he sees battles, and uses tactics. It's just that I'm not that good at describing it.

It is nearly impossible to infiltrate the CGU government. The StormGuard and State Police would make it very hard to do anything around any military leaders, and the CGU State Security observe people at all time, the Government keeps records and tabs on everyone, always.
Not saying it'll be impossible, but it'll be hard.

Well, within the CGU 'verse, there is no 'force' or 'magic' or whatever. So, besides total brute strength and a few token telepaths, no. Of course, the few telepaths that exist are bred for special forces combat.

Of course, Robotic Unit-414 could easily destroy any Jedi or Sith that came at him. Force or no Force, you can't stop two plasma swords 2" thick and 8" wide.

When a large hunk of metal can be crushed into a ball and thrown back at the people who sent it (which Palpatine was capable of) it kind of throws a wrench into your plan. Anyway, what is so great about its battle prowess? And, for my curiosity, how big is it?

Who? 414?
It's a self-learning, intuitive, massively-fast (reaction-time speaking), robotic combat machine. It has dual plasma swords, twin Plasma Throwers, two Plasma Beam batteries, and an assortment of lesser projectile launchers. 414 also has rocket boosters that allow it to hover for a limited period of time. The thing's armour is nearly impenetrable from laser bolts, explosives, or projectiles. It also has an energy shield for added protection.
It's micro-reactor system is heavily protected. In addition, it uses laser-light to transmit information with literally lightning-fast speed, making it very fast, and very nimple and agile, in combat. It can predict it's enemy's next move by selecting the most likely variable according to it's opponent's last slight movement, and it does this at just phenomenal speed, I mean within pico-seconds
.
The machine itself is about 5 meters tall, and weighs about 750 kilograms.

So what would this metal monstrosity do to counter the power of the Dark Side?

From what I've read in the last page, this argument is simply becoming a verbal fist-fight. Hapsburq refuses to believe that the Empire could beat the CGU, and hence all logic and reasoning falls to pieces. I support Arquibus as he seems to be debating. As opposed to the Holy Roman Emperor's preaching.

Arquibus should just stop. It's obvious the CGU lost, and it's obvious the Holy Prick is a flamer.

Stop feeding the troll, ja?

I dont think that he is a flamer. Why would you say that?

I meant flamer as in cocksucker. You know, someone who likes to get anally pounded.

But I should stop this nonsense.

Alright, it's done.

Where can I find information on this CGU anyway ? Is there a website ?

I have it all written down, but I haven't put it up on a site, yet...
I don't think I said that the Empire would get totally whupped, IIRC my first post in this discussion was that "the CGU could win, but just barely" It's the co-creator that thinks that the CGU would own the Empire.
They are pretty evenly matched, really.

Of course, they can just send in the GSS Eta Rycon. That could wipe out the entire Imperial navy on it's own, by sheer brute strength.

Ahem ?

The damn thing is over 12,700 kilometers long. Is shaped like a cigar, and has a massive cannon on the front that fires a 120-km wide bolt powerful enough to roast a star system. It also have simply millions of secondary guns, rated in the gigaton and teraton range, and thousands antimatter missile launchers. It's armour is nigh-indestructable, made of a material called "Terranium". It can literally get hit hundreds of times with planet-cracking blows, and have little more than a scratch. It's shielding is rated in the Zettatons. This is the only thing in the CGU's arsenal that could really unbalance the odds in the favor of the CGU severely.

Ah, Hapsburg. I see you are as prolific a poster here as you are over at SB. And, if I might add, you are still (to use the term) wanking over your over-the-top fantasy (not sci-fi) Universe, and not very effectively at that.

To all of those wishing for some more information of what Hapsburg's CGU entails, sally over to the same thread here (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=81846), and then to the 'supplements' here (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=82530), and here (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=84760).

It gets ugly with everything mixed in between scathing remarks. Note that n00b 1 and Hapsburg are one and the same. His username was changed by the admins after making a less-than-stellar impression.

Now it may very well be that Hapsburg is right about the capabilities of his Universe (no matter how non-sensical those capabilities may be.) But nonetheless, best not to take it too seriously.

Well, it's science FICTION. Of course it's not going to be taken seriously.
However, I would still like to keep this a straight-forward, non-flaming, simple debate.
So, keep the SB shit outta this.
Oh, and who are you on SB?

A major part of science fiction is the appreciation of the implications of the society and technology in a Universe. It doesn't matter how crazy your tech is, how archaic your society is, but if the Universe doesn't make sense taking these factors into account, it's not really science fiction at all.

This is where your Universe has major failings. Not that that is at all surprising. The technology is so outlandish that, short of a superb effort or intellect, it is impossible to come up with a 'believable' setting.

I do not say this in a mean hearted fashion. Even on SB (where I tried to be civil and helpful towards you, at least from my biased point of view, although you may disagree) I like to think that I was trying to point this out and provide solutions or alternatives.

But that aside...

The threads from SB, although sometimes degenerative in nature, do possess invaluable information for this discussion whether you like it or not.

If I were up to the task of presenting a summery of their contents (and I think you would agree that that task is a substantial one), I would, and save us all the trouble of having to slog through them. Alas, I am not, and so must present them in full.

As for who I am on SB, search for my username. You may then recall the times we have crossed paths.

Expect me when you see me...

EDIT: Oh, and the idea of a single 'big gun' (widearc and the like) continues to be a bad idea that doesn't work operationally.

"Don't be to proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." -Darth Vader


How would this monstrous ship function while its crew is busy fighting each other because of the Force technique known as Battle Meditation. Or, Maybe Palpatine would send in some boarding craft cloaked by Stygium crystals instead of Hibridium ore to not suffer the "double-blind" affect. So, while your crew of who knows how many is fighting the fleet, which is moving to use hit-and-run tactics on your behemoth, the elite stormtroopers from the Imperial 501st, "Vader's Fist", sweep through the ship and find/disable the life-support system. How many people would you loose then?

At K- Oh, yeah, I remember you. You made some sense, and actually tried to help me rather than be an insulting ass about it. Danke. Oh, and the GSS Eta Rycon's main gun isn't a wide-arc, it just shoots a ball of energy that sails into space, then explodes with the force of 2000 yottatons. Remember, I thought of most of this about 6 months prior to posting it. About a year ago. I'm not just now pulling this outta my ass.

Arquibus- That is a real big problem. Of course, I meant that it could best the Imperial military, in flat-out battle. Using unconventional tactics like that, however, would result in massive CGU losses. Of course, the CGU also can use unconventional tactics to screw over Imperial morale. Blue-rinsing planets = massive imperial losses, civvy wise.
IF, and this is a damn big IF, the CGU manages to blue-rinse coruscant...whooah...that'd be devastating...but, like I said, that's a big IF.

Just to express my lack of imagination...

2000 yottatons (2 x 10^27)?! It would take over 820 years for our Sun to radiate that sort of energy.

Nothing to do with the debate. Carry on.

Yeah. Also, that is the supposed weight of the sun, 2000 yT. The beam bolt is charged really fast, and fired in an ultracompact ball. The ball of energy sails to a certain point, predetermined by a targeting computer, and explode outwards, and flash-fries everything in it's path. The ship has to stay WELL out of the explosive radius, though. The GSS Maxamilian and the more modernized GSS Eta Rycon are the only two ships of it's class, at least during the Zaaroft War & Zephyr War. It is primarily used, because of it's sheer mass, as a stationary fleet tender.
In the Zephyr War, the GSS Maxamilian is destroyed, after an 6-month battle on the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy. That's how long it took to take down the shields and begin to scratch the armour. The Zephyr won because of a fluke, really:
1. They outnumbered the Max and it's protection fleet 1000 to 1.
2. They fired a salvo of antimatter warheads down the open barrel of the main cannon, and the rear engine port, which met in the centre, and caused a chain reaction that destroyed the ship.
In that battle, Dictator Maxamilian von Compton-Wittelsbach was killed. Eta Rycon then took control of the CGU, and made MAJOR refinements to his own ship, named after him, adding stronger shields, thicker armour, adequate barrel and engine protection, and extra weapons.

The time where I have the Empire and the CGU fighting in the debate is when the CGU is inbetween the Zaaroft and Zephyr War, when both ships are still around.

In an SB forum, I read that the CGU would try to make friends with any other human empire. The Empire is controlled by humans, does that count ???

Um, is the barrel of your super ship 120 klicks across?

That seems like a glaringly large chink in it's armor. Could it be plugged with a Death Star or two?

In an SB forum, I read that the CGU would try to make friends with any other human empire. The Empire is controlled by humans, does that count ???
Yes, normally.
But, for purposes of debate, that rule out the window.

Um, is the barrel of your super ship 120 klicks across?

That seems like a glaringly large chink in it's armor. Could it be plugged with a Death Star or two?
Yes. Most likely.
The GSS Eta Rycon fixes this problem, though, by having more than adequate armour protection, and a blast door that closes the barrel, thus preventing weapons fire from going into the barrel.

You still haven't balanced the Force option.

Anyway, for my curiosity, what is a blue rinse?

I already told you the force would fuck it over. I agreed with you on that. The CGU has only a few psychics to help them against the force, and they are very few in number.

Blue Rinse is the CGU's main special weapon of mass destruction (besides nukes). It can be delivered in bombs, missiles, rockets, or shells, as well as grenades, but the grenade delivery system is used only by special forces BioTroopers. It uses a chemical agent to break down and destroy all living matter, whilst doing pretty much no collateratal damage. It gets the name "blue rinse" from the blue cloud of the chemical spores that are released upon delivery. The cloud disperses about 35-65 minutes after detonation, so that troops can move in. There are larger versions that have much bigger "cloud time", going up to a month's time, but that is only in ship-launched systems.
Think of it kinda like really, really, really deadly cross between DDT and hydrochloric acid...:)

In that case, while it would be pretty effective against some worlds, many core worlds (including Coruscant) have weather control devices that would be able to contain the material in a controlled area until it can be neutralized. And, for my Star Wars equivalent, I present...The Ammonia Bomb! Originally used in grenade form by Gand warriors...or something like that...a larger version was created for orbital bombardment but was never used. If a bombing commenced, the entire atmosphere of a selected planet could be poisoned. Also, would the Blue Rinse affect noncarbon-based lifeforms or soldiers with contained armor (Stormtroopers and the like)?

No. Sealed armour is pretty resistant to it. Biotroopers and Shocktroops, and midwar SG-guardsmen and CGU infantry have sealed armour to make sure that they don't get harmed by the weapon when in the thick of combat.
Blue Rinse isn't the CGU's only chemical weapon, though. Acid bombs followed by a Blue rinsing = dead stormies.
Combined Force of Arms is the CGU's best asset in combat.

As for noncarbon life forms? Yes. If it's alive, it'll be destroyed by Blue Rinse.

I don't know that acid would burn through composite stormtrooper armor-maybe, maybe not. What exactly have we decided thus far?

Well, the acid the CGU uses for weaponry can burn through 10cm of Zaaroft armour. Zaaroft body armour can survive several 15mm autocannon rounds or laser bolts.

But what is it made of? Stormtrooper armor is used as protection from biowarfare and is made of some composite rather than metal. I do not know that acid would affect it at all, because it could be inert.

Oh, and by decided, I meant have we come to any overall conclusions that we agree on?

Okay. From what I've read about stormtrooper armour, they can shrug off grenade shrapnel, and probably bullets, effectively, but lasers chew through them like a hot knife through butter. CGU laser-rifle bolts are rated at about 66 kJ per shot, and the rapid-fire beam rifles are rated at about 40 kJ per shot. That would probably very easily pierce thier amrour, as the stormie's E-11's which have a yield of 50 kJ, can easily to it.

Now, the Zaaroft armour is made of a very strong metal alloy, and can withstand a lot of damage, but will eventually succumb to laser and beam bolts, as well as rockets. At least, for the legionairres. Legionairre's armour is about 10cm thick, and initiate's armour is about 1cm thick.

Now, as for what we can decide on mutually?
Okay, I think we both agree that the Imperial Navy will be outnumbered and possibly outclassed by the Central Galactic Navy. However, the Imperial fleet could score some victories, if they manage to outflank the CGU. Thhing is, the interwar period is a time where the CGU has warfare experience, and their admirals are now very skilled, and the majority of thier soldiers are veterans.

CGU Army will probably be outclassed but not outnumbered by the Imperial army and stormtrooper corps. The Impies definently have an advantage in individual firepower, but the CGU probably has the advantage in individuals. It'd be pretty even on the ground. I think we can agree on that.

What kind of assault vehicles does the CGU have to stand up to AT-ATs and the like? AT-STs, AT-PTs, Chariot landspeeders and ESPO walkers (I recently learned the CSA was part of the Empire) are all very powerful. And what kind of fighters does the CGU have?

CGU has some really powerful shit when it comes to this.
During the Zaaroft War, they had hovertanks and the like. Main one being the Mk.50 Hover-MBT. That thing would withstand several pulse laser hits, plasma missiles, and beam bolts before being destroyed. It was armed with a 155mm Beam Cannon, as well as two 30mm autolasers. In addition to that, the CGUA also used mortar tanks, AFVs, MLRS, etc.

In the interwar period, they develop and put into service several new vehicles. One of them is called the "Scorpio" class light assault vehicle, which uses leg-like appendages to move. The Scorpio is capable of taking enormous amounts of damage, partly because of its powerful energy shield, and partly because of its chitin-3000 armoured hull. It is armed with a large particle cannon is a tail-like mount in the rear, two phased plamsa repeaters in the "claw" attatchments, and two head-mounted heavy autolasers.

The real creme'-de-la-creme' of the new vehicles is the Cockroach-class heavy assault vehicle/mobile field base. It is about 20 meters tall, 200 meters long, and is outfitted with very strong energy shields, and very thick chitin-3000 armour. It is seperated into three sections. Section 1, the "head" contains the command center, gunnery control, and communication center. Mounted on the "head" are two 42cm Phased Plasma Repeaters, each shot having a mid kiloton yield. Also mounted on the head are two turreted 15cm plasma automortars. The second section, the "abdomen" contains several side-mounted autolasers and autocannons, to defend against vehicles and infantry, and several top-mounted antiaircraft guns and SAMs; this section also contains two of the six "legs". The third section is a massive block of 200 VL cells, each cell contains a Vertical-Launch Cruise-Missile. This section also has a storage compartment for 2 Mk.50 tanks, and a platoon of infantry (or shocktroops, or Waffen-SG, depending). This section also contains the other four "legs".
In general, the Cockroach is bigger than the AT-AT, but has a lower profile, and many more weapons.
The CGUA also uses mechs and combat robots extensively, and the Waffen-SG uses assasination bots for killing off enemy leaders. And, of course, let us not forget Unit-414.

Now, onto fighters. The CGUAF uses a wide range of starfighters and atmospheric fighters, interceptors, and bombers. One of the more common starfighters is the Tigershark-class fighter. It has energy shields, decent armour, and is armed with two 30mm Autolasers, four 50mm beam guns, and six nuclear air-to-air missiles.

How about numbers for these things?

Lemme go look 'em up...

Okay, here's the stuff from our site (note, autolasers and phased plasma guns have between 500-800 kJ per-shot yields) (other note- for convenience and easy understanding, I'm using Star Wars measurements systems).

CGULW Hussar-class Assault Fighter;
Shields: 300 SBD
Speed: 80 MGLT
Weapons: 2 x 30mm Autolasers, 4 x Crossbow ASRAAMs (30-kg warhead), 2 x 1000 kg Guided Bombs

CGULW Aries-class Space Interceptor
Shields: 200 SBD
Speed: 120 MGLT
Weapons: 2 x 40mm Phased Plasma Cannons; 2 x Longbow ALRAAMs

CGULW Aurora-class Multipurpose Starfighter
Shields: 315 SBD
Speed: 110 MGLT
Weapons: 1 x Rotary 30mm Laser Gatling 6 x Hammer AMRAAMs (50-kg warhead); 2 x Crossbow ASRAAMs 2 x 500 kg Guided Bombs

CGULW Rex-class Fighter-Bomber (this is one of the new-issue craft, designed during the Zaaroft War, equipped with autoboosters)
Shields: 400 SBD
Speed: 95 MGLT; AutoBoosters: 115 MGLT;
Weapons: 2 x Dual 30mm Autolaser Turrets; 4 x 1000 kg Guided Bombs

CGULW Sabretooth-class Atmospheric Fighter
Shields: 215 SBD
Speed: 2300 kph, Auto Boosters: 4100 kph
Weapons: 6 x 50mm Auto Lasers, 4 x Guided MicroNuclear Tipped 50mm Rockets (5 kT warhead)

CGULW Tigershark-class Aerospace Fighter
Shields: 320 SBD
Speed: 110 MGLT/3500 kph; Weapons: 2 x 30mm Autolasers, 4 x 40mm Beam Guns (800 kJ), 6 x Nuclear QMAATs (Quick-Manuevering, Air-to-Air Torpedoes, 6 kT warhead)

CGULW Great White Shark-class Strategic Bomber
Shields: 1000 SBD
Length: 100 meters;
Speed: 800 kph;
Armaments: 2 x 30mm Beam Guns; 10 x 40mm Autolasers; 16 x 13mm Autolasers; 20 x 30mm Autolasers; Bombload: 150,000 kg

http://groups.msn.com/PyroPicturesInc-/

Here's our site, if you need any more info on CGU vehic's, troops, and weapons. ^

Ah, so the site is finally up. Just a few notes right off the bat...

Give credit where credit is due! The B5 fan in me finds the situation especially deplorable. (Not to mention your use of the certain B5 ships is less than imaginative. Oh, and the Starfury is not a particularly good spacefighter design.)

Posting BMP's is very amateurish. Convert to a compressed file format like JPEG and PNG then upload. You're just lucky the images are small, so the BMP's aren't too much of a problem.

And now on to the analysis...


Aircraft/Aerocraft/Spacecraft

I shall ignore the fact that spacefighters are a bad idea scientifically speaking, especially since your Universe has FTL weapons and FTL sensors.

An interstellar organization like the CGU would do well not to have any aircraft in its armed forces, only aerocraft and spacecraft.
Aircraft are a nuisance. They require extra equipment to ferry down to a planetary base, and that same equipment to return them to an orbiting carrier. In all likelihood, the evacuation of a planet may require aircraft to be abandoned since there is no time (or none of the necessary equipment) to get them off the planet before it falls.
Aerocraft do not have this problem, making them more flexible assets.

Your craft are pitifully slow in atmosphere. How far ahead in the future is your Universe supposed to be again? And yet the maximum atmospheric speeds (short of reentry from orbit) is below hypersonic. Less than Mach 2 (in Earth atmosphere) for that matter.

Indeed, the "Great White Shark" Strategic Bomber is subsonic. By the Union (not a reference to the CGU), we have more advanced bombers today! (The US Air Force is apparently working on a hypersonic bomber that delivers its payload from near-space altitudes. Any higher and it would be a space bomber for sure.) Even worse, the 'GWS' looks like it came from 1945 (and is nearly as slow, comes with a whole bunch of superfluous PD turrets, no swept wing, etc., etc.) Even its payload isn't all that impressive. The yields are measured in 'millitons' (mT).

As for your shield ratings, they are not all that impressive. Take the Aurora for example. It carries 6 missiles with a total payload of 300 kg worth of explosives (I assume that means 'the equivalent to 300 kg of TNT.') So, it would appear that 0.3 tons of TNT is sufficient to pose a serious threat to craft with 200 SBD worth of shields plus whatever the hull is worth underneath.

If that doesn't convince you, take the Tigershark. It carries a measly 36 kT worth of warheads. You may not know this, but at the moment we have the technology to fire (at least) a 40 kT warhead from a 200 mm artillery piece, so why not a 40 kT warhead on a single missile? In any case, it would appear that 36 kT is sufficient to pose a serious threat to craft with 200 SBD worth of shields plus whatever the hull is worth underneath.

And does the Tigershark have an internal weapons bay? Can you imagine: the craft enters an atmosphere, surrounded in flames, and you have your highly volatile weapons on external, ventrally mounted, hardpoints? It won't take a lot to 'set them off.' Even if you use a shield to help your descent, why take an unnecessary risk, especially since when it counts you'll be under enemy fire all the way down.

On a side note, you may consider revising the weapon loadouts for the craft. Don't you find it just a bit odd that each craft comes with a unique missile? You'd think they'd all use the same types of missiles, the same types of weapons. But I guess the CGU isn't too fond of efficiency. I'd hate to be the one planning logistics for the CGU military. (“Oh, no! The depot storing 'missile X' was destroyed by the enemy! That means all of our 'strike craft Y' will be worse than useless for the next few days, and the enemy is just starting their offencive...”) I'll not even comment on the ludicrous diversity of your craft.

So, slow atmospheric speed, weak weapons, weak protection... Although lucky for the CGU, if the main Imperial ground support craft remains the butt-standard TIE fighter, the lackluster performance of CGU craft will not prove instantly fatal, although the moment the Imperials start using their concussion missiles, CGU pilots had best start seeking shelter.


Small Arms

Before I start, some tidbits. Apparently if one could make a 2 MW laser (pulsed at 1 J every 5 microseconds) for personal use today, it would be a match for current infantry armour (steel/ceramic). Also note that the standard NATO 7.68 mm round delivers over 3 MJ. Keeping that in mind...

LR-25C Laser Rifle
Thirty 66 kJ (66 kJ = 2 MW laser fired for 1/30 seconds) shots. I assume that these shots are able to threaten troops wearing standard issue CGU armour. Draw you own conclusions. Hint: a NATO 7.68 mm round fired at 120 m/s (speed of sound is 331 m/s) achieves 68 kJ (and it is normally fired at 850+ m/s for that respectable 3 MJ.)

The LR-25C has the additional stigma of (like the not-so-great 'GWS') looking like it came from the 20th century. Make it a bullpup, but the battery in the butt, do something! Anything but this 'M-16 clone' look.
For some thoughts on how a real personal laser weapon might look like, go here (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3l.html) and scroll down to the bottom where the question 'How will the laser pistol look like?' is asked. It's certainly different.

DC-221 Beam Rifle
40 kJ (44 kJ = 2 MW laser fired for 1/50 seconds) shots. Now, I must admit I don't understand the critical difference between a 'laser' rifle and a 'beam' rifle, but if there must be something otherwise the decrease in energy output would not be justifiable.

AC-150 Autocannon
Let the tirade begins...

If we assume that the magazine is long enough to hold 2 columns of rounds (which would coincide nicely with the spent case ejection slot) then the weapon is nearly 1.5 metres in length. This is machine-gun/anti-tank-rifle length. One can imagine the unwieldiness of this weapon in general use (especially in urban environments or other confined areas.)

"Sufficent clip capacity for sustained automatic fire"? Only if each magazine is a huge block. Just how many 20 cm by 15 cm by 5 cm mags (length/height/width) do you really think the average CGU grunt can carry? The large round size ultimately means a very limited ammunition supply once in action.

The weapon will not be particularly high powered (i.e. High muzzle velocity) anyway if it is supposed to be capable of automatic fire. Just take a look at the anti-tank rifles of WWII and the problem is immediately apparent. (And I suspect the AC-150 will not have the luxury of being fired prone and with a bipod most of the time.) If anything, the AC-150 will be amongst the weakest cannon ever developed. And how strong can the AC-150 be, if the late-war DC-221 fires a measly 40 kJ shot...

The barrel length is far too short. Antitank rifles of WWII with muzzle lengths exceeding one metre (which incidentally increased the weapon's power and recoil) were not unheard of. The AC-150 has a barrel length of something like 70 cm., thus you are not exploiting the large round to its full potential. (In fact, you can't since the weapon needs to be used as an assault rifle.)

Sounds like you should go back to the standard NATO round. Thousands of years old, but much better.

Conclusion:

I get the bad feeling that the regular Imperial grunt, with his standard military-issue Imperial blaster, will be a nasty shock to the CGU infantryman, and maybe even a CGU vehicular crew (depending how far the 'variable yield' argument goes.) This is quite different from the CGU grunt, who might find his weapon ineffective against Imperial personal armour, and require fancy heavy weapons to take on Imperial vehicles.

As for the ship pics, I didn't know where they were from. Weston emailed them to me.
The average CGU infantryman wears powered armour, so he can carry quite a bit of ammo and still retain mobility. Also, this enchanced strength allows them to fire the AC-150 full-auto.
As for the laser and beam rifle yields, I made those based on something I read that stated the E-11 blaster has a yield of 50 kJ. I can go back and change them, but I'll have to consult Weston.

The aurora and other CGU fightercraft are older, and thus do not have incredibly strong weapons, because they were made before the CGULW found out about Zaaroft craft.
As for the Tigershark's missile warheads...well, I didn't want them to be too strong. But, I can change that.
As for the AC-150. I can change that stuff around too. I just wanted it to be sortof a man-portable MG-15 type of thing.

Okay, so, for most of the stuff, I can go back and change it to make it better, which should stop criticism about it, but I'll have to consult Weston, the co-creator, and can't do that until Tuesday...

Just be careful how you change the numbers. You know how it is: change some stats, suffer from a whole bunch of unexpected implications.

As for the ships, it might be more effective simply to have write ups. Just describe how they look and what they can do in words. (You did something like that before, although the stats were a bit outlandish. :p )

Then you don't need to rely on images that look nothing alike.

---

I suspect it's not a good thing for me to be encouraging change during a 'debate' since it throws everything out of joint. Apologies. :o

I'd like to see some of those fighters go up against a couple of TIE Avengers or Defenders. And the infantry wouldn't do well against a battalion of DarkTroopers, I'd be willing to bet.
Oh, I looked into your website to compare it to some stuff that the empire has. Now, I have found even more ammo for my cause.

For starters, the CGU has nothing of semblance to an ion cannon to disable machinery on a massive scale. Imperial Ships could disable CGU capital ships and board them at their leisure to take them.

Next the CGU has no sort of hyperspace inhibitor like Gravwell Generators. Imperials could set ambushes for supply convoys or anything else.

I'm curious as to what kind of security CGU ships have on board. Spacetroopers are trained elites and are extremely competent. They have armor that enhance abilities like strength similar to your own.

I just found something called a neutron bombing that Imperials often used to capture enemy planets with high infrastucture. The radiation is used to kill almost every living thing, then Radtroopers sweep in to remove any pockets of resistance and hold the planet until the radiation subsides.

I also learned that the Imperials had a special division allocated to Blackhole, one of the Emperor's Hands, that had stealth armor made of a composite similar to what is used on the F-117 or B-2. Does the CGU use stealth technology?

More important, do the have cloak generators of any kind? The TIE Phantoms could wreak massive havoc on CGU convoys or starfighter squadrons.

Okay, first off, I haven't gotten around to putting EVERYTHING on the site, because there are constraints on how much space I can use for images. The CGN has dedicated vessels that have all ion cannonry, ECM and etc. They have dedicated vessels that generate gravity wells.
CGU ships usually have a couple of platoons of Waffen-SG troops, Panzermarines, and Panzergrenadiers that could stop Imperial spacetroopers.
Well, the neutron bombs sound fun to use, except that CGU infantry have full NBC shielding as part of thier armour.
Yes, CGU does have stealth tech like that, and cloak generators, they have certain ships specifically designed to use cloaking and become sort of a "space sub".

Time to look for a better host other than MS Groups then. Of course, that would require you to actually make a website from scratch.

Yeah, and I don't know shit about coding and etc.
We had a site at freewebs, but we deleted the stuff on there...which was a stupid mistake, cause we had a lot of movie ideas on there...

But that site still had shitty restrictions...
But, anyway. What sites do you suggest for hosts?

Actually, I ment using the neutron bombs on civilians and sending in the Radtroopers to remove anything else.

Vessels with all ion-cannons? Now that's just silly. Sometimes you still need good lethal weapons as well. Though I will easily admit that the CGU has a capable and deadly fleet, it seems that they are severly lacking in versatility or efficiency.

Also, I'm wondering what the CGU does to protect its crew in case of a hull breech. If the spacetroopers punch a couple of holes with a thermal detonator or two in the bridge walls or somesuch, what is the commander going to do to survive?

If the CGU is wise (and uses conventional wisdom, something that most examples of space opera do not) the command and control spaces will be buried deep inside the vehicle. Getting to the bridge in that case would require destroying the ship, which makes the whole point moot. :p

Actually, I ment using the neutron bombs on civilians and sending in the Radtroopers to remove anything else.
Ah. That'd be a LOT of neutron bombs you'd have to use to kill every CGU citizen.

Vessels with all ion-cannons? Now that's just silly. Sometimes you still need good lethal weapons as well. Though I will easily admit that the CGU has a capable and deadly fleet, it seems that they are severly lacking in versatility or efficiency.
Well, not ALL ion guns. They do have a few beam cannon batteries for protection, but mostly act as a dedicated vessel. They CGU fleet opts for having "king of one trade" vessels instead of "jack of all trades" vessels, though some are multirole, such as the Dreadnought.

Also, I'm wondering what the CGU does to protect its crew in case of a hull breech. If the spacetroopers punch a couple of holes with a thermal detonator or two in the bridge walls or somesuch, what is the commander going to do to survive?
They have doors, you know, airlocks, in every hallway, so they can seal breached sections off. But the spacetroopers would have to get past the energy shields to do something to a ship, anyway...

If the CGU is wise (and uses conventional wisdom, something that most examples of space opera do not) the command and control spaces will be buried deep inside the vehicle. Getting to the bridge in that case would require destroying the ship, which makes the whole point moot. :p
Yeah, the main bridge is deep inside the ship, and the Observation Deck in elsewhere.
Such as on the Dreadnought:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/Hapsburg/CGUDreadnought.png
You can't see the bridge on the surface because it's not on the surface, but the Observation Deck is.

I don't think they use neutron bombs so much as some sort of neutron wave, because it seems that it would take far too many bombs. I don't know for sure though...

In the meantime, if your shielding prevents docking of vessels how do you launch starfighters? A shield of that kind works both ways, so you wouldn't fire projectiles either.

And, as for that ship...The bridge isn't on the surface? Wow. Even if you have an observation deck, that will seriously affect the conveying of orders and strategy through the ship and across the fleet. Dangerous for you.

First off, no, the shields don't work like that. They don't have to put them down to let fighters out. Remember the gungan's shields from SW Episode I? The CGU's ship shields are similar to that, except a little better, a little different, but in general...it allows fighters and projectiles to get out, and fighters to get in, but enemy projectiles and energy beams/bolts can't go through it unless you hammer at it a lot. They recognize friendly and enemy fire with a sophisticated friend-or-foe recognization system. Smart shielding, I guess, you could call it. :D

Also, have you never heard of external cameras? You know, to observe the surroundings of the ship? :p

Having the bridge not on the surface is not a detriment to fleet command at all. Orders must be relayed by radio (or whatever) anyway and those transmitters will be all over the ship's hull. Sensors will be similar. Everything will need to go through a computer before being displayed on the bridge anyway.

As for windows: what for? If you have FTL weapons and sensors (as the CGU does, I recall that much from SB), combat ranges will be measured in light-minutes, if not light-hours. You won't be 'eyeballing' anything at that range. And windows only serve to compromise the integrity of the hull. No, the closest a bridge will have to windows will be large data display screens.

(I hate to use the analogy, but in this respect, a space warship is like a sub. The newest Virginia-class subs have their command centres inside the pressure hull, not in the conning tower. Hows that for modern application?)

By having the bridge very near the surface of the hull is to admit that once the shields are down, you do not expect your armour to protect you. (Think Star Trek, their ships go down like flies in combat. No wonder their command centres are so exposed: it doesn't make a difference!)

Imperial warships are dumb in that respect. One expects Star Destroyers to be able to take a serious beating once the shields are down, but they leave their primary command centre in a place that is screaming: "Shoot Me!" The Imperial Starfleet is going to have a hell of a day the moment it comes across an enemy that has 1) equivilent firepower, and 2) good aim. (Beat down the shield, take out the bridge. I sense a slew of battlefield promotions in the future...)

an enemy that has 1) equivalent firepower, and 2) good aim.
A.K.A The CGUverse.... :p

A.K.A The CGUverse.... :p

Don't get cocky now. :p

The irony is that there are even more things wrong with your space strike craft, come to think of it.

You know those FTL sensors and weapons you have?

What use are space fighters if they have (at most) lightspeed weapons? They'll be shot out of the cold black void by FTL PD fire before getting into range.

Now before you rush off and put FTL weapons on your space fighers, consider if you really want to do that. One might suppose that the FTL weapons can only be carried by capships. (The weapons might be large, need lots of power, and some advanced sensor system to make it all worth it. Of course, then the sensor system might be large, need lots of power, etc..)

Might want to stick with only aerospace strike craft designed to fight near (or within the atmosphere of) a planetoid where the enemy isn't going to be so far away. (Look at it this way, if your own fighters aren't worth anything against capships, what makes you think TIEs will do any better?)

EDIT: See what I mean about the implications sneaking up to shoot a nuke up your tailpipe?

Well, fighers are mostly used against other fighters, or in planetary attack. Very rarely, they are used as a distraction. Only in the most desperate of situations will the CGN use aerospace and starfighters in straight offense, and usually only to destroy a crippled enemy vessel.

If that's the case, it looks like your starfighters are out of a job.

I could say the same about imperial TIEs. :p

Wrong, because the TIE Corps. is made of elite veteran pilots operating more dangerous and survivable craft complemented by a bunch of greenies in cheap hulks. Those that survive the green stage become excellent pilots from dealing with the disadvantage and in turn gain more powerful starfighters. They are like that for a good reason. Anyway...

You say they are similar to gungan shields? You remeber that the battle droids walked straight through. TIE boarding craft and spacetrooper transports could go straight through.

Also, the ability to view the battlefield directly through the bridge is a major advantage for several reasons. There is less delay between commands because the officers can make decisions right as things happen, no delay. Relying on sensors and radio transmissions is foolish, because sensors can be scrambled and communications disabled. Not good for your Admiral.

Also, the ability to view the battlefield directly through the bridge is a major advantage for several reasons.

If there is anything to see through the bona-fide glass/or-whatever-passes-as-glass window.

Let's just say this: looking at a 5 km diameter sphere from 5000 km away (a mere 0.017 light seconds) is like looking at a 1 mm diameter sphere from 1 meter away.

Even in scientifically plausible 'space war' scenarios using only light speed sensors and (at most) light speed weapons, 0.017 light seconds is 'point blank'. (This is mainly because of the use of missiles with bomb-pumped laser warheads, which can be launched from beyond 0.017 light seconds. And of course, a missile has a diameter much smaller than 5 km...)

Bare eyes won't avail you there. Sensors are going to be a very big part of what you do simply because you can't just look out the window and point.

(Besides, a windowed bridge is always going to have a limited field of view given that space spans 360 degrees on all 3 axis...)

Then take into account the CGU which has FTL weapons and sensors and you can begin to imagine just how far away things can get.

There is less delay between commands because the officers can make decisions right as things happen, no delay.

Replace windows using eyes as light speed sensor, with computer screens (or better yet, a big surrounding holo display) using ship mounted lightspeed (or FTL) sensors, with the added benefit of computer analysis. No delay.

Relying on sensors and radio transmissions is foolish, because sensors can be scrambled and communications disabled. Not good for your Admiral.

I think I have established the necessity of sensors, regardless of EW.
And as for scrambling sensors, the good ol' IR will never let you down, especially if the target's engines are burning (which they will be in battle.)

As for being 'foolish' to rely on radio/other-fancy-method, what difference is there between a windowed bridge and a 'burrowed' bridge if communications are disabled? Waving out of the window is not going to be effective.

---

As for the TIE's, they are out of a job against the CGU not because the crews are not trained, but because they are technologically out classed. The FTL sensor and weapon capabilities of a CGU warship will ensure that the TIE's will be swat from the sky before the TIE's even get in range.

TIE's (like everything else in the SW universe) was never designed to go up against FTL weapons directed by FTL sensors. Against an SW opponent, they could always count on getting up close and personal. Not so against the CGU.

Wrong, because the TIE Corps. is made of elite veteran pilots operating more dangerous and survivable craft complemented by a bunch of greenies in cheap hulks. Those that survive the green stage become excellent pilots from dealing with the disadvantage and in turn gain more powerful starfighters. They are like that for a good reason. Anyway...
Ah, you mean the l33t TIE pil0ts who got pwnz0red by scruffy rebels in Incom-made crapmobiles?
Plus, it seems like you're automatically assuminf that all CGU pilots are green. The majority in active service in the interwar period are vets from the Zaaroft War, and they are the first fighters out there when starfighters are used.

You say they are similar to gungan shields? You remeber that the battle droids walked straight through. TIE boarding craft and spacetrooper transports could go straight through.
Obviously you didn't read the whole of what I posted. The shields use special electronic systems to tag incoming objects as "Friend" or "Foe", and then lets things through based on that. It observes every incoming objects, from asteroids to space dust, and uses a massively powerful computer to analyze the data in nanoseconds.
Smart Shielding, is the colloquial term.

Also, the ability to view the battlefield directly through the bridge is a major advantage for several reasons. There is less delay between commands because the officers can make decisions right as things happen, no delay. Relying on sensors and radio transmissions is foolish, because sensors can be scrambled and communications disabled. Not good for your Admiral.
Yeah, too bad for those attempting to jam the CGU's sensors and comm systems, because the CGU ships, all of them, use a little thing called "ECM". :p

I wasn't assuming that the CGU pilots are green, merely that the elite members of the TIE Corps. have superior craft and gained skills from surviving in something inferior. That gives them greater skill than is obvious. Guys like Baron Fel and Steele, now they were pilots. Anyway, the Empire has dedicated anti-starfighter vessels (Nebulon-B and Lancer Frigates, to start) and they have managed to make fighters heavy strike craft in their own right (Assault Gunboats commonly make runs on capital ships with no other support and wipe them out, and even a simple TIE bomber can devistate cargo convoys). It seems their fighters are just better.

Shields. Funny thing. I've never seen a shield that can be up in one spot and not another. And it can't have two operational statuses (?) at once, meaning either you have an overly redundant shielding with limited coverage at a given time, or, you must take them down to let other ships in or out. Meaning that when you are launching fighters, boarding craft can approach on their outgoing vector to assault your ships. Also, with your "smart shielding" can you shield against something with no sensor identity? If not, even a ship with a simple sensor mask could get in. Let alone cloaks.

Finally, let me say that while electronic warfare can be countered, the fact is that the same methods used to counter it can be countered in turn. Meaning it is a race to see who can develop better ones. And the Imperials have had a lot of practice.

1. Mayhaps. Still, though, the CGU has very good fighters, and all of thier fightercraft have shielding, something TIEs don't have until later models, and only in limited use.

2. CGU shields can also open up certain small parts of the shield bubble to let craft in and out in case the "smart" aspect of the system is malfunctioning. And, yes, smart shielding stops things with no sensor ID. Only friendly vessels can get through without having to destroy the shielding.

3. Then it'll just go back and forth. CGU can counter the Imperials counters with counter-counter-measures, and so on and so on.

the CGU would lose on the basis of being the more unpopualar fictional galaxtic empier. Sith rule.

Hey, can a mod edit the typo on the htread title?

The ewoks would win. Even the Care Bears cant stand the mighty power of ewok technology!
By the way, how would you make enough power to make that superlaser on your flagship?

Massive fusion reactor. How the hell else could I do that realistically?

A giant wall of hamster wheels! Okay sorry, but I had to say it. Anyway, I would like to know if we can even possibly come to any sort of agreements about this, or if it will just go on forever. I mean, we already said that the Force could kick the crap out of them, and the unconventional tactics the Empire could use make up for the difference in naval power, the infantry are at this moment equals, and I can't even remeber if we talked about information warfare. So, where are we going to go with this?

*thinking*
*thinking*
*click*
Stalemate?

That's what it would seem, surprisingly enough, or until someone else comes in, in which case depending on what side they're on one of us have to beat them back.

Alex, i really wish you would boast about our unfinished ideas.... and you also misinterpreted me....and here you are rambling on about a story that hasnt been fully developed both plot wise and the tehnical mumbo jumbo.....although in my opinion the CGU would win....i do not think it would be a blow out.... and for this late post i apologise... i was looking up my ignorant friends posts and or mis information. I do think however that the Empire is wining because of sheer popularity i did no inted for any of this information to be released this early in developing. You can expect to see these ideas in the future on the big screen but for now... alex i wish you to stop boasting on the internet about these unfinished unorganised ideas... and stop blaming all this misfourtune youve had in this debate on me scince you are the one rambling on like this.... Thus i would like to extend an offical appology to you...as a major waste of time...and however insutling to you as this was...as i have clear stated this idea is unfinished not ploted well havent even came up with the main chars for sure... and we are still changing things... and i personaly belive the GSS maxamilion is too pwerful for its own good...so please forgive my ignorant friend and co-producer he knows not what he does...

Eh. Well, yes, we are still in the process of developing it, but the basic tech of it could possibly best the Empire, especially in the way of industrial strength and thier capabilities as a military-based society.
Yes, yes, the Max is a bit too powerful, but remember, it was designed as a last-resort weapon, to be used only in a dire emergency. The Zaaoft War did not require that powerful a weapon, but for all the CGU knew, it might eventually had gotten up to that...it didn't, but they built it just to be safe...and just in time, too, for five years later, the CGU became embroiled in another conflict with aliens, one that would reach even the CGU's capitol planet of Terra. The Zephyr War. That war actually could very well had ended with the CGU's destruction, but luckily, Munich was defended, and the Zephyr were finally beat and driven back. Of course, the Max was designed as the flagship of the entire CGU military. You want your best ship to be your flagship, eh?

Anyway, what he says about the main characters is true to an extent. We have a general idea, but we have not gotten a full-story scope of the character. Just the basics, but the basics are enough to debate with. Generalities, basic this and thats, are enough to debate with.

And, yes, Weston, I know you didn't want us to announce this story so early, but spreading the word as soon as possible has helped in the long run, as I have gotten help from the local science guys here. It has helped us to explain away some things.

Massive fusion reactor. How the hell else could I do that realistically?

Neutronium conversion. You won't power anything above kilotons with a fusion reactor in any real sense. Simply because fusion is fundamentally inefficient.

The CGU is fundamentally incompetent, bureaucratically stagnant, and primarly retarded in its doctrines, from what Hapsie has posted on SB.

...Although, admittedly, SW is nearly as bad.

Then what does SW use as power?

And how exactly are is doctrines retarded? Pound an enemy planet into fuckdust, mop up with ground forces, and then terraform for colonization. Seems sound.
How is it's burearocracy stagnant, anyway? It's stable, organized, etc.

Hypermatter/anti-hypermatter annihilation would be my guess. (Magical substances are most convenient.)

---

Oh, and: Hello, MJ12 Commando!

-me waves hello

Do I have to go over everything again?

The use of armor when armor is pointless against your jiggawatt weapons...

The use of mechs when tanks are superior in every way except on giant stair worlds...

The complete lack of need for carpet-bombers when one has ortillery...

Lack of need for dedicated atmospheric fighters when one has ortillery...

...that's four off the top of my head.

1.What the hell are you talking about? If you remember, I severely toned down the weapon yields. Because of this, CGU infantry armor can sustain hits from alien weaponry, alien ship armor can sustain hits from CGU ship guns, and so on and so on.

2. Variation. Many other scifis use mechs AND tanks, yet I don't see you complaining about Btech.

3. Again, variation, plus additonal firepower of heavier explosives in comparison to an artillery gun, i.e a 3000kg HE bomb is more powerful than a 1500kg shell.

4. Can anti-structure artillery take down alien bombercraft? No. Aerospace fighters? Yes.

I believe that when he says 'ortillery' he means 'orbital artillery'.

If your technology is sufficiently advanced, there should be no problem calling in pinpoint strikes from orbital platforms against ground and air targets alike.

(Which makes combat on the ground something of a risky proposition to begin with. Unless there's something you really want to capture intact.)

Oh. I thought it was just a typo.
Also, the whole reason the CGU does ground combat is precisely that: there are some things they need to capture intact, i.e structures, minerals, land, etc. If you turn a planet into molten slag, you really can't use it as a farming colony, now can you?

In additon to that, SW does similar things, they send in stormtroopers instead of simply frying a planet with ISD. Yet I do not see you complaining about THAT...instead, you berate only me.
Hypocritical much?

Oh, it's not 'risky' in the 'melt entire crust' sort of way. It's risky in that the deciding factor in any ground campaign (even if you discount logistics) is control of space.

Whoever controls space can call down that previously mentioned pinpoint 'ortillery' which renders the opposing force stone-cold dead in triplicate.

With the technology you're throwing around, there's no reason why a starship couldn't level a select city block (or perhaps even a select building) while leaving the surrounding area virtually unscathed.

In an assault, your ground 'forces' become nothing more than forward artillery observers, assuming you don't simply deploy automated (or remote piloted) drones to do the same job.

In fact, the primary role of your troops is really to serve as police and security, to put down relatively lightly armed insurgents or rebels. Because the moment an enemy warship enters orbit they're screwed anyway.

EDIT: And given the CGU's xenophobia, surely it'd be more efficient simply to bomb alien cities into rubble rather than expending so-and-so many armies trying to capture them. After all, how useful can infrastructure designed and built for alien physiology and to slien sensibilities be to humans?

Well thank you for explaining it thoroughly, Kv1at.
Now, say that the CGU is attacking Corellia (yes, this is an SW v.s CGU thread, if you remember the title correctly), and they come in with a carrier group (1 revenge-class carrier, 2 superdreadnoughts, 4 dreadnoughts, 4 nova-class battleships, 6 gawain-class battlecruisers, plus several support vessels and smaller escort frigates and gunboats)...
Let's say that the Empire is defending with 1 executor-class SSD, 2 ISD2s, 4 VSD2s, 4 VSD1s, 6 Imperial Dreadnaughts, plus several support vessels and escort frigates and gunboats.

The ships will engage in orbit, and thus the CGU's ships cannot attacke the planet directly because they are busy defending themselves from Imperial vessels. So, the CGU would have to send down transports while the Imperial vessels are busy with the CGU capital ships if they want to capture Corellia. Thus, multitudes of CGU troops would land on the planet, and Imperial troops would have to defend...Imperial vessels in orbit or the air would be distracted by CGN ships and CGAF fighters...thus nessitating (sp?) ground combat...with artillery and armor backup.

BZZT! Wrong.

If the Imperials win the space combat, landing all those ground troops is pointless.

And space wasted on ground troops or air-only fighters is space not used for additional weapons, shields, armor, or engines, hence putting you at a disadvantage.

Air-only fighters? Whoever said there were air-only fighters? Aerospace fighters, yes.
And, that's IF the imperial win at space combat. IF. There's a little thing called a 'battle'...and it takes time.
Also, why does the Empire have nearly ten thousand ground troops on thier ISDs, if thier fighting can be decided entirely in space? Does that not also seem quite a waste of space? See, the things said about the CGU can also be said about the Imperials.

And I have said multiple times that Imperial force dispositions don't really make sense.

Oh, and why would it be so hard to decide something?

Given that your aerospace fighters have wing surfaces, high-altitude nuclear-level detonations (and the Empire has lots of weapons capable of doing so) would quite literally *SLAP THEM INTO THE GROUND*.

...ditto for your bombers and such. The best way to deal with a ground fight in a interstellar civilization is to not do it. Unless the planet itself is superheavily defended and you can somehow get forces on there without interacting with shields and such, ground combat is largely something done very rarely, when you have a place you want to take intact.

Again, the most sane military force for any interstellar empire would be organized like FORCE:Ground--a very well-trained, hyper-well-equipped, elite group of badasses prepared to deploy *ANYWHERE*, *ANYTIME*, if there's something important enough that they need to defend (because the enemy won't be shooting it up), or attack (because they won't be shooting it up).

Compare the equipment of a FORCE trooper, which includes camoflage systems, personal shielding, and powered armor, as well as a multipurpose rifle, to that of a Stormtarget or a Central Wanktastic Union Stupid Shitsack grunt.

There should be no forces besides elite infantry and ortillery needed, plus the support that ortillery gives (space-capable fighter strikes--hitting from orbit, now, mind you, dropships, strategic bombardment...)

And I have said multiple times that Imperial force dispositions don't really make sense.
Then stop yer bitchin' and start comparin'. That's how you debate.

Oh, and why would it be so hard to decide something?
Equal-numbered and equal-strength enemies.

Given that your aerospace fighters have wing surfaces, high-altitude nuclear-level detonations (and the Empire has lots of weapons capable of doing so) would quite literally *SLAP THEM INTO THE GROUND*.
Does 'energy-shielding' mean anything to you? Besides, the CGU has ship-mounted bomb-launchers that can be used to destroy Imperial anti-air nuclear-level weapons.

...ditto for your bombers and such. The best way to deal with a ground fight in a interstellar civilization is to not do it. Unless the planet itself is superheavily defended and you can somehow get forces on there without interacting with shields and such, ground combat is largely something done very rarely, when you have a place you want to take intact.
Precisely. Corellia, or any other inhabited planet, would be something the CGU would want intact! As a base of operations, or a farming colony, something.

Again, the most sane military force for any interstellar empire would be organized like FORCE:Ground--a very well-trained, hyper-well-equipped, elite group of badasses prepared to deploy *ANYWHERE*, *ANYTIME*, if there's something important enough that they need to defend (because the enemy won't be shooting it up), or attack (because they won't be shooting it up).
Why have some when you can have more?

Compare the equipment of a FORCE trooper, which includes camoflage systems, personal shielding, and powered armor, as well as a multipurpose rifle, to that of a Stormtarget or a Central Wanktastic Union Stupid Shitsack grunt.
Yeah, your replacing proper words with insults really shows your maturity...
Now:
Camo systems? Not on standard troops, but the CGU does have assassin robots that have light-bending camo generators. Frontline troops and SGs don't have them because Infantry can simply paint thier armor with camo colors without using as many resources it would take to mass-produce assassin bots.
Personal shielding: In the period we are talking about, between the wars, the CGU manages to develop a miniature version of thier shield generators, and install them into infantry armor.
Powered armor: Already said this, CGU infantry have powered armor.
Multipurpose weapons: Most autocannons are equipped with a grenade launcher, but other than that, there isn't much interchangeability with CGU weapons, besides swapping scopes, stocks, and grips.

There should be no forces besides elite infantry and ortillery needed, plus the support that ortillery gives (space-capable fighter strikes--hitting from orbit, now, mind you, dropships, strategic bombardment...)
Necessity and a flaunting of power are two very different things...remember, the CGU is mostly catholic...logic isn't always first in thier minds.

You know, it's been awhile since I've posted here, but it seems you are facing some of the same problems as ever, Hapsburg.

To clear something, ground battles are always of necessity in even interstellar civilizations, if conquest is the objective. In the modern world, we cannot take over a nation with our jet fighters. It can't be done. Pilots cannot garrison a world. What's more, many worlds can support themselves in warfare against a blockade, so that often doesn't work. Next, consider that many worlds, like Corellia, have planetside shipyards capable of building large capital ships. An Executor-class Star Destroyer (Lusankya) was built and stored under Coruscant. It would be foolish to assume that because you have won a space battle, you've won a planet. What might you do if there is a planetary shield? An infiltration team or a ground assault must ensue. What if an important leader has been taken to a penal colony? You have to engage on the ground to try and free him. Also, remember that the Empire standardized all things, communication, industry, transportation, etc. on all of its worlds, meaning that in turn all of it would be equally suitable for CGU usage if it was taken.

Wrong. Unless people are *REALLY* stupid, one only needs a starship and maybe forty soldiers to do the job.

Tell them they better give you such-and-such and submit or you pound one of their cities into dust. Repeat ad nauseum.

Given the vast disparity between a civilian hunting weapon and the weapon required to punch through power armor, they can't do anything to resist.

High ground wins battles, and space is the ultimate high ground.

One could throw cola cans into the planet's gravity well to cause mass destruction.

No an idiot would think a single ship and forty people can take out a planet with a garrison.

You need massive ground forces to take control of a hostile planet. You need them to keep the planet under your control. unl;ess of course you are going to reduce the planet to a smoking husk. In which case you have just eliminated almost every use for it.

...when none of those forty people can be *TOUCHED* by the planet's remaining garrisons, what does it matter about controlling ground?

Besides, it is essentially impossible to hold a planet due to the land one needs to control. I don't care who you are, there are better uses for military forces than to stand on a dirtball twiddling thumbs and fucking the local whores.

Ever read Fallen Dragon? Their concept of how the Z-B corporation worked is basically the best model for an interstellar war.

Go to a newly conquered planet with a starship, threaten them into submission, take all the high-profit items you can, destroy what infrastructure might be useful to the enemy (depending on how nice you are, of course...), and then leave.

A ground force 'garrison' is what anyone with ortillery deems a *TARGET*.

You can guarantee that every base would have been hit by kinetic-kill weapons. And due to KE's calculatable nature, precision kinetic strikes are *EASY*.

The war you people seem to be thinking of is an amphibious war in three dimensions. A interstellar war is so far removed from any conventional Earth analogy.

For one, a ship in space is *UNTOUCHABLE* by any fortresses on a planet as long as it keeps an erratic path and stays out of close range, by virtue of the fact that it possesses the ability to rain down death from any angle, at any time, with little warning. Planets, by far, don't move. Ships do.

Furthermore, due to the ship being very very small and a planet being very very big and immobile, the planet is not a stronghold like you're thinking. It's fundamentally a nonissue because throwing cones of tinfoil at relativistic speeds could massively fuck it up. A cola can incoming at point-six cee will have a rather massive effect on impact.

Controlling a planet, again, is impossible because by far, shipping troops is a losing measure. Every soldier you ship is that many kilograms of weaponry or supplies that you could be using to bolster your spacefleet, or supply it. To control a planet, even with powered armor, is *THE* most retarded thing to do in a war in space, unless there is an absolute reason why you need the planet.

And no 'it has industry' answers. Controlling a planet with heavy industry, which means that it is hence capable of building things that could fuck up your troops, is going to cost more and take more.

But you want something out of them.

So what do you do? You send a raiding party, haul whatever supplies and goodies you can off of the dirtball, then raze their industrial facilities. That or convince them to surrender.

But sending in ground forces and taking a planet over is one of the most stupid ideas in a war where both sides are evenly matched. You do not have the time, the materials, or the manpower to waste on subjugating planets, or the enemy, given an advantage by your waste of resources (the subjugation will have a *LONG TERM* benefit and a massive *SHORT TERM* cost.), will probably be able to take the planet back. And more.

Just raze the thing to the ground or leave it be after destroying all orbital assets and weapons industry. You can always conquer it *AFTER* the war's over.

Foolish...you would never win an intergalactic battle. You see, I don't know what pitiful weapons and defense systems you have on your planets, but I have heavy batteries of Turbolasers and Ion Cannons on mine which have greater range than most starship mounted weapons, as well as missile launchers capable of launching ICBM+++ warheads into space at high velocity, as well as planetary shields to counter any bombardment. Plus, I have ground based shipyards capable of producing a heavy capital ship in a month, and a self-supporting economy for emergency situations. Your pitiful single capital ship doesn't stand a chance. Meanwhile, raiding parties? Give me a break. I hope your raiding party is at least 50,000 strong per region, otherwise, you're toast. A planet like Corellia is not an easy match for even a full fleet, much less a single capital ship. And, a capital ship with forty people? That is kind of pathetic in and of itself.

Congratulations. Postulating equal resources, I win handily as you waste enough resources to create a dozen entire fucking fleets on static defense.

Meanwhile, my lighter, faster, more lethal and efficient army drops asteroids with hyperdrives strapped onto them onto your planets with wild abandon.

Asteroid: Two million tons.

Fuel and hyperdrive: Five thousand tons.

The look on the other guy's face when the 'roid hypers out right next to their planet or even better, under their shields, and *RAMS IT INTO OBLIVION*?

Priceless.

As I said, in any sci-fi that obeys science or is consistent, a single ship or small flotilla is literally enough to subjugate any planet with all mobile defenses removed.

Just find asteroids and whip them at the planet. Done.

False, and your lack of knowledge is proof enough. Let me ask you...If a ship or small group of ships was enough, why try to go after planets at all? What importance do all the resources on a planet have if the ship is far superior? None.

You never countered my defensive strategy, merely insisted that I was wrong, so I win due to your inept command and lack of orders.

...when none of those forty people can be *TOUCHED* by the planet's remaining garrisons,
So, now, Star Wars doesn't have blasters anymore? :rolleyes:

False, and your lack of knowledge is proof enough. Let me ask you...If a ship or small group of ships was enough, why try to go after planets at all? What importance do all the resources on a planet have if the ship is far superior? None.

You never countered my defensive strategy, merely insisted that I was wrong, so I win due to your inept command and lack of orders.

Yes, I countered it.

Asteroids. Hyperdrives. END DEBATE. The importance of resources on a planet? As long as you have any interstellar and mass industrial capability, you're right.

There isn't that much of a point except as convenient housing that doesn't require infrastructure. Or breaking them into chunks for convenient heavy metals and silicates.

Building capital ship docks in space away from easily detected and targeted planets is a good idea.

However, to counter it, I get my Ramming Ships and RAM YOUR PLANETS UNTIL THEY GIVE UP. The cost for strapping rockets and a hyperdrive on a asteroid will be a thousandth that of fully arming and garrisoning a planet.

Planet-Centric warfare is somethng that will tie you to immobile defensive positions, while a large nomadic force continuously moving its infrastructure is far harder to hit and take out.

And Hapsie, no, blasters will do exactly jack and shit to a Dark Trooper Phase III, which is the closest thing in SW to powered armor. 40 of those with a single star frigate around would fuck over any ground forces when used correctly.

actually darktrooper phase iii is a war droid phase ii is powered armor

for reference a heavy blaster pistol will still kill it in a few shots.

actually darktrooper phase iii is a war droid phase ii is powered armor

for reference a heavy blaster pistol will still kill it in a few shots.

Wrong. Phase II is a wardroid, Phase III can be used either as powered combat armor or as a autonomous wardroid.

And for reference, those things are both massively tougher and more manuverable than human troops.

Neither is particularly vulnerable to heavy blaster pistols, both tend to require heavy weapons. Like Concussion Rifles/Disruptor Rifles.

But, your forty troops are on the ship, remember? The ship that I just shot out of space with a battery of fifty capital-ship grade assault concussion missle launchers. Ge, not too much chance of them succesfully entering the system now, is there?

And, on another note, an antivehicle ion cannon does a major number on powered armor. Turns the equipped soldier into something of a statue in the case of Dark Trooper Armor. In the meantime, though the armor dissipates a lot of energy from a blaster, a blaster can still kill a Dark Trooper.

And asteroids are all very well and good, except I have countermeasures for such things in the form of Turbolaser batteries, missile batteries, and planetary shielding. Meanwhile, my world-based shipyards are pumping out ships under the shielding and preparing for an assault on your ships in-system, or at least they would be if there were any left.

WRONG.

The fragmentation energy for a K-T style asteroid moving at relativistic is fairly ludicrous.

Especially given that you have to shoot it up before the vaporized bits due to conservation of momentum hit your planet and fuck it up massively. And if the thing hypers out a thousand kilometers away, and it moves at ~.5 c, you have exactly... 1/150th of a second to acquire it and destroy it before your planet dies.

One asteroid + one planet = dead planet. The K-T strike was moving fairly slowly. It was ~100 TT.

An asteroid moving at a thousand times that has a million times the KE, which makes it rather dangerous. Death Star level. Except this is much cheaper because I'm not building a battlestation, I'm flinging asteroids.

BTW, most DEMP-style weapons are of limited effectiveness against shielded wardroids and taking down DT IIIs with blasters is in the realm of futility.

Yeah...try building, maintaing, and populating an empire with a measly nomadic defense force. Won't work too well. You need to garrison planets to defend your population effectively. A few ships and a mere 40 troops can't do that.

And, yeah, the CGU can defend against an asteroid hitting one of thier planets. It's called "planetary shields".

Yeah...try building, maintaing, and populating an empire with a measly nomadic defense force. Won't work too well. You need to garrison planets to defend your population effectively. A few ships and a mere 40 troops can't do that.

And, yeah, the CGU can defend against an asteroid hitting one of thier planets. It's called "planetary shields".

...Hapsburg, whenever you attempt arguing with me, you eventually get proved wrong.

INCORRECT. A nomadic force, with no worries about dealing with pollution and such, and breaking planets up for resources, can maintain a larger, tighter, better-defended *AND STEALTHIER* empire than any planet-based civilization because by the time you know we've been somewhere, we aren't there anymore.

And no, the CGU cannot defend against it. It's called "jump out right next to the place at 99% c and watch the planet, shield and all, go bye-bye."

Now... since you want a CGU versus... *evil grin*

An asteroid cannot penetrate a planetary shield. The shield will vaporize it instantly. Also, if it is moving at such a high speed, it cannot do anymore damage than if it were moving at a low speed, because the friction will break it up faster. It all balances out. Though you gain advantage from it moving too fast to target (possibly, though droid controlled defense batteries fire at astounding rates) one would not destroy a planet. In fact, with the shielding like on Corellia, it would do no damage.

Also, I wasn't talking about DEMP guns. They are strictly anti-droid'anti-computer systems. I'm talking about superheavy shoulder-mounted anti-vehicle ion cannons, kind of like a blue energy bazooka. The droids are screwed against that.

WRONG.

Conservation of energy means that if the asteroid hits the planetary shield, the entire kinetic energy of the impact will become converted into another form. Something like... a rather massive explosion. And don't forget conservation of momentum.

The *LIGHT* emananting from the impact of a 2 million ton asteroid at 99.99% c is going to be enough to instantly flash-fry all of your citizens, let alone the impact momentum transfer and the other problems from the impact.

End result is the impact could quite literally pitch the planet right into the sun if aimed at the right angle.

The impact is roughly 1E28 joules. This isn't that far off from a Death Star impact, and utter overkill on a planetary shield. Plus a superlaser doesn't have the other issues like the momentum of the impact pitching the surviving remnants into the sun.

The *LIGHT* emananting from the impact of a 2 million ton asteroid at 99.99% c is going to be enough to instantly flash-fry all of your citizens, let alone the impact momentum transfer and the other problems from the impact.
Who is to say the shield won't simply absorb the kinetic energy, making the energy shield strong, and just bounce the asteroid back at you?

This is beyond the point.
This thread is a SW GE v.s CGU. Not CGU v.s Mj12's asteroidwankverse.
Stop getting of track, cockface.

Who is to say the shield won't simply absorb the kinetic energy, making the energy shield strong, and just bounce the asteroid back at you?

This is beyond the point.
This thread is a SW GE v.s CGU. Not CGU v.s Mj12's asteroidwankverse.
Stop getting of track, cockface.

Oh, poor Hapsie is upset. And 'cockface'? Having a cock means the ability to sexually reproduce, which you're about a billion years away from evolving.

...and besides, Hapsburg, the average force required to do the bouncing an asteroid back at you thing unless your planetary shield extends light-months or so is going to be enough to pretty much do the same thing. Cause a massive explosion that makes the Death Star look like a wet fart. And make the planet go BOOM.

...and as I said. This is like one of those little retard fights. Both use stupid tactics, both have similar weapons, and both, well, are rather evenly matched.

However, the CGU seems to be a bit more retarded on the space front, so they'll lose marginally. On the ground front, they're a bit less retarded, but in a war of annihilation, ground combat is meaningless.

So, what you are saying is that the technology used by members of the SW universe for millenia is useless? Because I seem to have a problem with that. Actually, several.

If you are hypering the asteroids in, which I believe you are, there are exactly three problems which I am aware of instantly.

1) A hyperdrive cuts off when it reaches something of significant gravitational mass. This means that the hyperdrive quits a long time before it reaches the planet. It is on this principle that 2 works.

2) A pair of interdictor cruisers (1 at each pole) or a field of Mass Pulse mines would put a stop to the asteroids as well, at an even greater distance than the planet's own mass shadow.

3) When a hyperdrive ceases, whatever it is powering slows down to normal sublight speeds. This is because the hyperdrive is used to attain entrance into a subdimension where the mass of the real universe combines with a lack of relativity, creating a place where ships and other objects can travel at FTL speeds without attaining time travel. The asteroid would hit at a sublight speed, merely being deflected by the planetary shielding.

...and as I said. This is like one of those little retard fights. Both use stupid tactics, both have similar weapons, and both, well, are rather evenly matched.
Then stop yer bitchin', and start debatin'. The thread title is "star wars v.s CGU" not "bitch about the logic behind science fiction".

Oh, poor Hapsie is upset. And 'cockface'? Having a cock means the ability to sexually reproduce, which you're about a billion years away from evolving..

Actually i think he meant you have the face of a cock, aka rooster. Though I think it is an insult to compare you to such a noble animal. LOL :D