I understand that like 95% of humans believe in a certain religion, but the other 5% are the truly "enlightened" people. Sorry to break it to all you believers but there is no such thing as a supreme being. It accually cracks me up that people are so willing to believe in that crap.

Everything in this universe is living, no matter how you look at it, everything has its life and its death. THESE are the properties of life, then that would mean that the universe is in fact LIVING. So then, how special are a bunch of humans living on a rock in outer space and only live for approx 100+ years max!

We are so humbled by are smallness in the universe that we look to religion for comfort. We look for a ficticious "supreme being" to guide us into the future, so we don't hafta be afraid of our fate!

So all you people that believe in a religion are weak people and base their belief on nothing more than faith. My response to that is "HOW CAN YOU BE SO F*CKING STUPID!!!, IT IS A JOKE!"

RELIGION IS A JOKE!!!

For instance:

How many Christians does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Two, but God only knows how they got in there to begin with. :D :D :D

On the flipside, I hope you're wearing a flameproof bat-cape. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited July 20, 2000).]

Chaos,

Well, that was uplifting. I'm sure you'll make lots of friends here and enlighten many who have, until now, been walking the darkened path. Thanks so much for your kind and thoughtful input.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Chaos,

It sounds like you are very uncomfortable with your own beliefs. I hope you can soon find comfort in what ever you belive.

I msut admit I am really enjoying this site. There are some extremely thoughtful people here with very good points to make, even if I don't agree with all of them. All I can say to Chaos though is, if you want people to listen to you, use your brain a little and the God given ability for reason and logic and most of all get your head out of your butt. Not very Christian I know, but sometimes people need to be told things bluntly. Yes my beliefs are based on faith, but faith isn't some mystical blindness, it's just being certain of what we do not see. This certainty can involve as much logic and reasoning as one can handle if that is what is needed!

Yes i do know that faith sure can chain down a person. However, only until the day of your death will you really be shown what the true meaning of life is. When you die you will see that nothing happens, you simply turn into a bunch of matter. We don't have a "soul" inside us, we made up that term to help describe our self-conciousness. But in reality we have our individualness from genetics and our self-awarness comes from our complex brain.

Sure go walk in your tunnel, Go see your white light. If that is what comforts you and your FAITH than so be it. But until you open your mind and bring your faith to a new level of debate, then and only then will you be able to see how your belief is laughable and without any well thought out explanation of any kind whatsoever.

As for my previous informal manner of addressing this topic, it was simply made to identify how obsurd of an argument the 95% of the world has.

And as for the comment about my own beliefs, I am very comfortable in my faith that someday humanity can put aside our different cultures and primitive religions of the past behind us so we can advance our species into the cosmos so we can become one with the universe, and accually put our rather pointless lives to a good cause.

[This message has been edited by Chaos (edited July 21, 2000).]

Originally posted by Chaos:
Yes i do know that faith sure can chain down a person.

Chaos,

It takes a certain amount of FAITH for you to believe as you do. How is your FAITH different from anyone else's? You still believe very strongly in something there is no way of knowing - that there is no God/dess. I'm sorry that you are so chained down.

Sure go walk in your tunnel, Go see your white light. If that is what comforts you and your FAITH than so be it. But until you open your mind and bring your faith to a new level of debate, then and only then will you be able to see how your belief is laughable and without any well thought out explanation of any kind whatsoever.

It's good to see someone who is obviously so open-minded. Oh, and thanks for all the well thought out explanations.

And as for the comment about my own beliefs, I am very comfortable in my faith that someday humanity can put aside our different cultures and primitive religions of the past behind us so we can advance our species into the cosmos so we can become one with the universe, and accually put our rather pointless lives to a good cause.

Oh really? If you are so comfortable in your own beliefs, why do you need to put down the beliefs of others so harshly? Basically you've indicated that 95% of the world is stupid, and you're one of the bright 5% who have it right. Can you say "arrogant"? Can you say "religious intolerance"? I knew you could.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

I find it fascinating that Chaos here has all of the answers. No need to look further. They're all right here, yyyyyyup.

You know, Chaos, comparing your last post in this thread to that one about astronomy being useless and pointless because our lives are useless and pointless, you don't even seem to know which side of the fence you're on. You want us to stop exploring the world around us. Then you want us to abandon faith so we can explore the world around us. People here do read more than one forum, you know.

If you're trying to shock us, it isn't working. We've debated until we were blue in the face on science and religion and extraterrestrials. You aren't being shocking. You're being pathetic.

I have no god. I view religion as a sort of defense mechanism to deal with the inexplicable or the truly unfathomable, such as impending death. (The survival instinct tries to deny it to the last.) This board knows that although I do not agree with the continuing need for belief in divine power, that I will respect their beliefs in such, even when I am arguing against them.

Try stepping back for a moment and presenting your thoughts and ideas in a calm and civlized manner. There's probably a good brain hidden behind the bombastic tirade, and we'd all like to see it since you went to the trouble to bring it here. There's no need to jump and shout. We can see and hear you fine.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

Yes, it must be extremely humbling to be included in this fifth percentile of spiritual enlightenment. You know, when I find myself in a situation in which my opinion conflicts with everyone elses, my initial reaction is to question myself, not everyone else. It only seems reasonable. Were you aware Chaos, that humility is required to even get religion?

But I must say that you are right in your beliefs, at least in regards to yourself. In the most basic sense, the following is true regarding one's spirituality....that whatever you believe will happen in the afterlife is what will happen to you. If you believe that you will see the light, you will, if you don't believe there is a light, then you won't. If you don't believe that you have a soul...if you don't recognize it...then it will die. If you do recognize it, then it will be saved. You will seal your own fate with your faith or lack thereof. It's all up to you. It's the meaning of life you know? Figuring this all out. What else is more important? Nothing, regardless of what you believe. It's too important not to question. You aren't questioning anything. That is a sure sign to me that you are not an intelligent person. I'm sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but intelligent people never stop questioning. Particularly with this topic. If you think for one second that you and your five percent hold the key to the questions of the universe, then my only possible response is to scoff. I mean, come on. How old are you by the way, 19? People live their entire lives without finding the answers, what makes you think you're so special? What makes you think that you're any smarter or better than 95% of the people on this planet? Are you f'ing kidding me? One of these days buddy, God is going to introduce you to the concept of humility, and get ready cause He's gonna knock you on your ass, and it's gonna hurt. When it happens you'll have a choice...either harden your heart even more, and become even more of a miserable asshole, or you'll humble yourself, and get some religion. I hope you choose the latter. Good luck!

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

the following is true regarding one's spirituality....that whatever you believe will happen in the afterlife is what will happen to you. If you believe that you will see the light, you will, if you don't believe there is a light, then you won't. If you don't believe that you have a soul...if you don't recognize it...then it will die. If you do recognize it, then it will be saved
Sorry Lori but what evidence do you have that suggests this is true? You won't know this is true until the day you die. I feel sorry for you because your blind faith has consumed you brain and you are failing to express yourself free from oppressed thoughts.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, I am simply telling you what the facts are. I can understand that some of you are so set on your beliefs that you refuse to give THE TRUTH a good look. So I feel sorry for you and the other 95% of the world.



[This message has been edited by Chaos (edited July 21, 2000).]

You guys! Can't you see it? Chaos IS god!

He knows what will happen to us after we die, isn't that cool? Gosh, golly darn, Chaos, where's your temple? I gots me some rose oil to annoint your doorstep with. I sure wish I was as all-knowing and wise as Chaos is! I wish I had all the answers beyond the shadow of a doubt, so *I* could go around telling everyone else how stupid and unenlightened they are!

Sigh. :rolleyes:

Oh well, Lori, I think you're right - he's gonna feel the smackdown sooner or later, then we'll just have to debate whether it was karma or God that was the power behind the smack. :) He's tempting the fates, and those are 3 tricky ladies to be testing like that!

Blessings everyone!

Chaos:

"When you die you will see that nothing happens, you simply turn into a bunch of matter. We don't have a "soul" inside us, we made up that term to help describe our self-conciousness. But in reality we have our individualness from genetics and our self-awarness comes from our complex brain."

(And now, if I may paraphrase: ) Sorry Chaos, but what evidence do you have that suggests this is true? You won't know this is true until the day you die. I feel sorry for you because your blind faith has consumed you brain and you are failing to express yourself free from oppressed thoughts.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

That has already been determined by science, they know where in the brain we get our awareness from. I doubt when they open up your brain they'll spot your spirit... hahaha

Hey All ~
Chaos, let me pose a question to you. What is wrong with faith?
I too believe as you do. Not in one all powerful omnipotent being who will smite you if you blink wrong at it. Not all the answers in life is "because it's 'God's will'". That's a cop-out if I ever heard one. But, I do have faith. Faith in the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow, even though I might not be around to see it. Faith that humankind will somehow pull itself out of this self-destructive course that we have set for ourselves. Faith that there will be a cold beer in the 'fridge when I get home :D. Anyway you understand where I'm going with this, I hope.
I thinks it's foolish to believe in one all encompassing powerful being that's the reason for why we're here and what we've accomplished. I do believe in humankind, with it's unquenching thirst for knowledge. The geniuses that dared. The risk-takers that tried. That is the reason we are where we are today. And I believe that we will carry on in the same fashion.
So, once again I pose the question 'what is wrong with faith?'
I'm rambling. Everyone, a great weekend!
PEACE!! :cool:
H

Chaos,

"That has already been determined by science, they know where in the brain we get our awareness from. I doubt when they open up your brain they'll spot your spirit... hahaha"

Um, so you are saying when they split open a brain they can actually see awareness?

You also seem to be focusing primarily on Christianity and similar faiths...there are religions out there based on multiple Gods and Goddesses that are firmly rooted in the natural laws of our universe. I do believe the universe is alive, and no, I don't think mankind is the "special" species. I don't even believe the Divine is a "being" in the way we understand "beings" to be.

What say you to the concept of the Divine being the totality of all life in the universe? That the Divine is a force present in this universe, as it is now, much like light and gravity?

Faith is a tool. Do you think people are stupid and foolish for using a hammer to drive a nail rather than their bare hands? Do you think people foolish to wear shoes? Faith is the understanding humans create between themselves and the Divine that we cannot directly observe. Faith can be used to bring light and love to a person's life, or it can be used to bring darkness and hate. Like a hammer, it depends on the wielder if it is used to create or destroy.

But just because you don't like to use hammers is not a reason to insult those that do; perhaps YOU are the fool for pounding your fists bloody against that nail instead of picking up the tool designed to do that job.

Me use my fist to bash nail in...me smart.

(pats Infinity on the head)

Yes dear, (pat, pat) go lie down and rest...

LOL!

Chaos

I find you just as abnoxious as the Bible thumpers who push their crap in your face.

Who cares what someone believes or doesn't believer if they're not in your face with it.

Chill out. It makes life more pleasant for you and thoes around you, and realize most of us don't give a shit what you believe or not, or if you approve of our beliefs.

Chaos-Because science has not yet been able to prove that a soul exists by no means indicates that they have proven that it doesn't.

Chaos,

I abhor the fact that you have accused me of having blind faith. This is what I mean about you...you assume that you know things that you don't know. Why? Don't you understand that you're denying yourself opportunity to learn? Don't do that! Um, are you a racist too by chance? Same mentality. It's a shame is all. Listen, the principle of faith is pretty simple, and it jives with your science and your philosophy and even other religions and non-religious spiritual or enlightenment practices, in that what you believe to be true becomes your reality. Our thoughts drive our reality. Our intentions manifest into our reality. There is no action without thought. It's just the way it works, and why shouldn't it? It makes perfect sense. In order to know God you have to believe He exists. Isn't that just logical? I'm sorry, but I fail to see the big mystery in this. You have a choice...you've made it...what's the problem? Don't get pissy with us just because we want to know God, and so we do, and so we will eternally. You're missing out dude! :p

Honestly...what's your beef? You don't want a soul, you don't want a God...even if you knew there were one, you probably wouldn't want to follow His way anyway. You don't want to live an afterlife. FINE, YOU WON'T THEN. You should be happy. :)

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Well, I don't really care what all you dumb people believe in... All i'm saying is that i'll be laughing at you when religion starts to crumble in the face of modern discoveries such as unlocking the secrets of the human brain... Maybe then you guys can come back and apologize to me? But until then I am not equiped to inform the 95% of the world of THE TRUTH...

Think about religion really hard... we manifested religion and gods because we are small in comparison with the universe and we are scared of what we don't understand!


[This message has been edited by chaos1 (edited July 22, 2000).]

I really hope you aren't going to tell me that our manifestations can become reality because right now im trying to manifest $1,000,000 and it ain't workin!

[This message has been edited by chaos1 (edited July 22, 2000).]

Chaos,

Why the change of screen names??

You don't provide any vaild argument to support what you belive. Is it becuase you really don't have anything intelligent to say? After all in one post to me you stated that you don't want to learn anything. That means that you can't even be sure that your beliefs are any ware near the mark. Just that they are ignorant rantings.

I do provide a valid argument, perhaps you would find that argument if you review my previous posts.

Your argument that I don't have an argument goes to show that this argument is no more than a shoving match of wits. I have given my opinions and vividly described my argument and supported it, unlike you and your accusation of me not having and agrument. So where is your basis?

Or would you care to test my resolve on this issue? I don't feel like repeating myself!

My dad could beat up your dad.

How's that bat-cape?

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Chaos1,

I do provide a valid argument, perhaps you would find that argument if you review my previous posts.

Well I have been reading them and let me point one gapping hole that has stood out from the begining. Which is the fact that you are not providing a vaild argument becuse you don't even know facts behind it.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, I am simply telling you what the facts are. I can understand that some of you are so set on your beliefs that you refuse to give THE TRUTH a good look

You haven't provided anything (your bellow statment will show you don't even know the facts), you've just been running off at the mouth saying the same jiberish over and over.

But until then I am not equiped to inform the 95% of the world of THE TRUTH...

This shows you don't even know the "facts" behind the statments you have been posting. Come on, this is just as bad of an argument aa the bible thumper who tells me to belive all the smoke and mirros in the bible.



[This message has been edited by 666 (edited July 22, 2000).]

666, sometimes when you read something you should read the piece as a whole. You are cutting and pasting different portions of what I said...

Well, I don't really care what all you dumb people believe in... All i'm saying is that i'll be laughing at you when religion starts to crumble in the face of modern discoveries such as unlocking the secrets of the human brain... Maybe then you guys can come back and apologize to me? But until then I am not equiped to inform the 95% of the world of THE TRUTH...
Read it all.

I am not here to change people beliefs. If I were here to change your beliefs I would need to be equiped with scientific information which I do not have at this moment, and which will give overwhelming evidence against religion in the future.

Please stop taking what i say and not including the entire portion. 666, when your going to read something try and get the whole idea or else you will sound stupid like you are now...

------------------
Who owns the words www.chaos.com (http://www.chaos.com)? I do!

[This message has been edited by Chaos (edited July 22, 2000).]

Chaos,

I don't know how else to say this...I'm not trying to pick on you, but just give this a little thought would you? Your arguement assumes that all faith is blind faith, that is spoon fed from one human to another, accepted through coersion, inclusion, threats, what? Do you understand that what you describe is NOT religion? That's NOT faith ok? Not at all. It's not good enough to SAY you believe because it sounds good, or to believe only because someone tells you to. Faith comes from a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST and that's it. Period. If you don't know Him, you ain't getting to heaven. That relationship is where the "proof" comes from. It's undeniable, but you HAVE to see for yourself. No one else, no church, no minister, no parent, no one, can do it for you.

And to your next point, scientific discoveries regarding the flesh of man in no way shape or form make religion obsolete. To me, it reinforces my faith. All science does is physically describe how God does what He does, or made what He made. It doesn't tell you why does it? I tell you what, you answer the question why using your science, and this big dummy will shut up.

You say that the only reason I believe is due to the relative size of my physical body in relation to the universe. That's interesting, I guess, but it's total bullshit. You think that people have faith because they don't understand. I assure you that the opposite is true...people have faith because they do understand. I used to be young and stupid and egotistical like you. You can only be that way for so long before life kicks your ass. If you keep the same mentality, and the same hardened heart, you will end up miserable one day. Hopefully that misery will enable you to question. Remember always that humility is the key.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

You say that the only reason I believe is due to the relative size of my physical body in relation to the universe. That's interesting, I guess, but it's total bullshit. You think that people have faith because they don't understand. I assure you that the opposite is true...
It isn't bullshit. Religion was made because we didn't understand our surrounding and what our purpose is, so made religion/myths to understand it. Greek mythology is a great example. They have a whole bunch of gods and legends to explain what they couldn't understand about their world.

Lori, I'm assuming your a christian, correct? What makes you think the greeks religion is false, and what makes your own religion more practical? Christanity happens to be around 2,000 years old! The bible gives us stories that aren't true, they merely help people understand the world around them. The bible also helps the people learn morals and goodness. If you really believe the stories of the bible you are fooling yourself. Adam and Eve never existed, they are a myth just like greek myths...

Religion is merely our way of finding truth in the world around us! It isn't because we are small in comparison to the universe. The world is full of different religions, and you can't say one religion is more believeable than the other because they all are rooted in old legends and myths that were passed down to give us a basis of truth and a sense of where we come from.

We made god, he didn't make us.

------------------
Who owns the words chaos .com? I do!

[This message has been edited by Chaos (edited July 23, 2000).]

Chaos,

take your blinders off and read my post again. It's about the fact that you state that you don't know crap about this, but continue to tell everyone it is the truth. Which only requirers the parts I quoted.

Tell me this, How in the hell can you determine that some thing is true when you don't know anything about it?????!!!! Unless it is through blind ingorance. If you know something that will back it up then tell us. OHHH but wait you don't have anything to back it. You expect us to take it on blind faith. Huuummm sounds just like what you accuse org. religon of doing. Do you get the point yet???

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited July 23, 2000).]

Chaos,

How do you know that the gods of greek mythology weren't real? You don't. It wasn't deemed "mythology" when it was being practiced you know. The ancient greeks and romans had a cure for cancer didn't they? I think it's dangerously close-minded to assume that the greeks or romans were any more "stupid" than we are. What if I told you that I think the gods were real spirits which manifested themselves to the people in these forms. Demonic spirits deceiving as they always do.

And how do you know that Adam and Eve didn't exist...prove it. I'm reading a book right now that includes additional books about Adam and Eve that were left out of the Bible. And if religion is a myth, then explain the life of Jesus real quick would you? That's no myth. There are many other writings besides the Bible that document the life of Jesus.

As for other world religions, I unlike yourself, have read up on most of them, and found that some of the behaviors that are perpetuated by them are the same. Principles, parables, and ideology are often comparable. All of them include a belief in something higher than the flesh at least. The difference is always about who we attribute our spirituality to, or who it is that we worship. Who created us, who is God? It stands to reason that there is only one supreme being, so which one is it? Satan's only purpose is to prevent us from knowing God. Satan's wish is to prevent all of us from entering the kingdom of God. Deception wouldn't be deception if you knew you were being deceived now would it?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Chaos,

I am not here to change people beliefs. If I were here to change your beliefs I would need to be equiped with scientific information which I do not have at this moment, and which will give overwhelming evidence against religion in the future.

Are you paying any attention to what you are saying here? You have FAITH that science will someday eventually prove all religions false, although you confess to being ignorant of such scientific information yourself. Apparently this is your particular brand of religion, but unlike others on this board who've actually given some thought to why they believe as they do, your faith seems pretty blind to me.

By the way, if you truly own the words " www.chaos (http://www.chaos) .com ", then that means you are Kathleen M. Rutkowski, founder of Chaos Creations, and married mother of two teenagers - a seventeen year old and a fourteen year old. Sounds to me like you are far too old to be behaving the way you do here. Either that, or you don't really own the words, " www.chaos (http://www.chaos) .com ". I'm guessing that maybe you're the 14 year old? Just curious...

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Lori,

Faith comes from a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST and that's it. Period.

Are you implying that faith in Jesus the only faith that exists in this world? Do you forget the rest of us who live by different tenets? Chaos also has faith - but it's not faith in Jesus. MoonCat and I have faith in the Lord and Lady; 666 has faith in his monkey; Heathen has faith in Budweiser (or is it Lowenbrau? :) ). See Lori - it's all about diversity.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Chaos -

Interesting you didn't even respond to my post. Hmmm...wonder why that could be?

Searcher -

For Heathen I'd say he's polytheistic - he has faith in anything fermented, carbonated and with a good head on it. LOL!! (Sorry Heathen, couldn't resist :D )

Searcher,

"By the way, if you truly own the words " www.chaos (http://www.chaos) .com ", then that means you are Kathleen M. Rutkowski, founder of Chaos Creations, and married mother of two teenagers - a seventeen year old and a fourteen year old. Sounds to me like you are far too old to be behaving the way you do here. Either that, or you don't really own the words, " www.chaos (http://www.chaos) .com ". I'm guessing that maybe you're the 14 year old? Just curious..."

LOL, there you go, busting people again!

I'm telling you guys, don't try to fool Searcher when it comes to web stuff, she is the PRO at finding stuff!!

Hey Everyone ~
Chaos, still waiting on a reply about faith. No comment, mayhap?
Searcher, How do you do that? Impressive! ;)
(actually, it's Sierra Nevada and Lagunita's)
MoonCat, you know me the best, you're only calling it as you see it!! :D

Okay, I found out a little bit more about our friend, Chaos. The threads I found at the webpage addresses listed below explain a lot of things, such as why I couldn't put the link to the Chaos Creations website without getting a bunch of asterisks, and why Chaos had a new name for awhile. Boy, Chaos - for a 16 year old kid, you sure do cause a lot of problems, don't you? Do you plan to be a lawyer when you grow up?

http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000152.html http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000154.html

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Searcher,

Well!! That illuminates things quite a bit!!

Chaos,

You are a spolied brat. Shame on you for your behaviour towards Dave. You are a liar, a conniver, and an immature jerk. Have fun talking to yourself because I'm ignoring your posts from here on out, and I sincerely hope the rest of the folk at this forum do the same. I also hope the folk over at the real www . ********* sue the socks off of you (which means your parents since you're a minor, double-shame on you). Non commercial use aside, you're acting like a jerk and claiming to own their domain name - that looks like defamation of character to me.

[This message has been edited by MoonCat (edited July 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MoonCat (edited July 24, 2000).]

Well stated, MoonCat!

Hey, Chaos - since you seem to be so interested in law (and seem to have great potential as a future lawyer) have I got the book for you: "Disorder in the Court: Great Fractured Moments in Courtroom History", by Charles M. Sevilla and Lee Lorenz (Illustrator)

The book is filled with some really stupid things people actually said in court, taken down word for word by court reporters. Here is one of the jewels from that book:

Lawyer: Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?
Doctor: No.
Lawyer: Did you check for blood pressure?
Doctor: No.
Lawyer: Did you check for breathing?
Doctor: No.
Lawyer: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?
Doctor: No.
Lawyer: How can you be so sure, Doctor?
Doctor: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar.
Lawyer: But could the patient have still been alive, nevertheless?
Doctor: Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere.

Good luck in your future career, Chaos.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Searcher,

I've seen that excerpt before, but it's OH SO appropriate to today's discussion! Bravo!!! :)

(getting a crown with a browser address line etched around the rim - with emeralds at the points, of course - and placing it upon Searcher's head) I hereby crown you QUEEN OF INTERNET SEARCHES (fanfare plays, the crowd goes wild...)

Chaos ~
you petulant shit. How dare you behave like that towards Dave, when he was ON YOUR SIDE IDIOT!! I normally don't care on way or the other about peoples actions or beliefs, but on this you were way out of line.
Jesus H. Christ!! You're 16 F**in' years old!!, still wet behind the ears, twerp! Outside of Cowshit Texas, or where ever it is that your from, What the Hell do you know about life? So shut your cock-port, and open your eyes and ears, because there's a lot out there to learn junior!

[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 24, 2000).]

Hello, I have returned. DaveW deleted my Chaos name, and chaos1. I don't know why he deleted chaos1 because it wasn't breaking any rules. But I'm guessing it was DaveW's way of trying to find out my email address (did you notice he changed the whole registration system just because of me?). Well I had no choice but to enter my correct email.

I don't understand why all of you are being so mean to me, I was simply trying to defend my rights. I have returned to respond to some of your allegations against me. I must admit for some of you "adults" your remarks can be very rude and offensive. If you are so disappointed with me then wouldn't you want to be a positive role model to me and show me how civilized real adults can be?

Boy, Chaos - for a 16 year old kid, you sure do cause a lot of problems, don't you? Do you plan to be a lawyer when you grow up?
Let me remind you that I didn't cause this problem, Lenny did. No I don't plan on being a lawyer and I don't see why you would think I would be interested in that. Do you think only lawyers are interested in justice. Personally I think lawyers are just in it for the money, not the justice.
You are a spolied brat. Shame on you for your behaviour towards Dave. You are a liar, a conniver, and an immature jerk. Have fun talking to yourself because I'm ignoring your posts from here on out, and I sincerely hope the rest of the folk at this forum do the same. I also hope the folk over at the real www . ********* sue the socks off of you (which means your parents since you're a minor, double-shame on you). Non commercial use aside, you're acting like a jerk and claiming to own their domain name - that looks like defamation of character to me.
I find this post very rude and offensive. First off, how would you know if i'm a spoiled brat? You don't know jack about me. You would probably think I was an adult if I didn't tell you otherwise! I don't really care if you ingore my messages, if that is what you have decided to do then it is fine with me. Oh, and I don't care if they sue me, what are they going to sue me on? Issuing false statements? Copyright infringement? What if I said "I OWN WALMART" and used the word WALMART in my profile and signature. Would that mean WALMART has a case against me? I don't think so. I would think since your an adult you would have a better understanding of the justice system but I guess not. I feel as though you made this post out of anger against me and you probably didn't stop to sort out your ideas. If you want to flame me, send it to Kutulus@hotmail.com but please don't make a fool out of yourself. Thanks.
you petulant shit. How dare you behave like that towards Dave, when he was ON YOUR SIDE IDIOT!! I normally don't care on way or the other about peoples actions or beliefs, but on this you were way out of line.
Jesus H. Christ!! You're 16 F**in' years old!!, still wet behind the ears, twerp! Outside of Cowshit Texas, or where ever it is that your from, What the Hell do you know about life? So shut your cock-port, and open your eyes and ears, because there's a lot out there to learn junior!
Here is another flame message that should be directed toward my email. Heathen this is not the way an adult should act. I do agree DaveW was on my side, but I didn't realize that until later (how should I have known, he banned me!). Oh and I don't believe I was out of line, I was issuing my beliefs in a calm manner unlike what you did in this post.

Also, don't make prejudice statements against me. You don't know anything about me. You would probably think I was an adult if I didn't tell you otherwise. And I do understand there is a lot to learn, but what makes you think you've learned it and I haven't? (just a little though for you because you are acting immature).

Thanks for your time,
-Ryan

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Okay, I'm going back on my word, what can I say? I couldn't ignore Chaos's little post here...guess I've got my trouble-maker hat on or something...

"I find this post very rude and offensive."

Hey, good job Chaos, you can read! 2 points.

"First off, how would you know if i'm a spoiled brat? You don't know jack about me. You would probably think I was an adult if I didn't tell you otherwise! "

I know you're a spoiled brat just by reading your posts here. If you're not, then it's not my fault you're conducting yourself exactly in the manner a spoiled brat would. And no, I assumed you were a kid right from the start of this thread.

"Oh, and I don't care if they sue me,..."
Of course you don't, it's your parent's money..."what are they going to sue me on? " Defamation of character is what I'd go for if I were they. You are acting like a creep, then claiming to own their domain name. You are ruining their reputation by claiming to be them. If you don't understand that...(scratching head) well, I'll just assume you do, you're a jerk but you don't seem to be too stupid.

"I feel as though you made this post out of anger against me and you probably didn't stop to sort out your ideas. "

You're halfway right, I AM ticked at you, you treated Dave like crap and tried to pull a power play on him by threatening a lawsuit. I see someone acting like a jerk and I call them on it. You're off demanding apologies from Dave when I think it's YOU who should be apologizing. You screwed up and are not a big enough man to admit it (which doesn't really surprise me at this point). The least you could do express at least a LITTLE bit of apologies for what you put Dave through.

"If you want to flame me, send it to Kutulus@hotmail..." No thanks, I'm not interested in emailing you. Anything I have to say to you I can say here quite comfortably, thank you very much."...but please don't make a fool out of yourself. Thanks." ROFLMAO!!! :D You see ME as the fool?? Okay, whatever! Thanks for the laugh, anyway. You're good for something besides ticking me off after all!

Well I had no choice but to enter my correct email.
~WRONG!! You're still at it. I just took a look at your 'bio' and you still have the same address. You must be more stupid than I gave you credit for being.

I don't understand why all of you are being so mean to me, I was simply trying to defend my rights.
~And what right are you referring to? Infringement on others registered domain names? I have returned to respond to some of your allegations against me. I must admit for some of you "adults" your remarks can be very rude and offensive.
~You finally got something right!
If you are so disappointed with me then wouldn't you want to be a positive role model to me and show me how civilized real adults can be?
~Uhhh, NO!

Let me remind you that I didn't cause this problem, Lenny did.
~No, You caused the problem, Lenny just called you on it.
Personally I think lawyers are just in it for the money, not the justice.
~That's the age thing I was talking about coming into play here.
[QUOTE]You are a spolied brat. Shame on you for your behaviour towards Dave. You are a liar, a conniver, and an immature jerk. Have fun talking to yourself because I'm ignoring your posts from here on out, and I sincerely hope the rest of the folk at this forum do the same. I also hope the folk over at the real www . ********* sue the socks off of you (which means your parents since you're a minor, double-shame on you). Non commercial use aside, you're acting like a jerk and claiming to own their domain name - that looks like defamation of character to me.
I find this post very rude and offensive.
~Good, that's the way it was intended! But enough on MC's post, she is more than capable of taking up for herself!
First off, how would you know if i'm a spoiled brat?
~Because you're acting like one maybe.
You don't know jack about me. [i]You would probably think I was an adult if I didn't tell you otherwise!
~Nah, you're carrying on like a brat you petulant shit. How dare you behave like that towards Dave, when he was ON YOUR SIDE IDIOT!! I normally don't care on way or the other about peoples actions or beliefs, but on this you were way out of line.
Jesus H. Christ!! You're 16 F**in' years old!!, still wet behind the ears, twerp! Outside of Cowshit Texas, or where ever it is that your from, What the Hell do you know about life? So shut your cock-port, and open your eyes and ears, because there's a lot out there to learn junior!
Here is another flame message that should be directed toward my email. Heathen this is not the way an adult should act. I do agree DaveW was on my side, but I didn't realize that until later (how should I have known, he banned me!). Oh and I don't believe I was out of line, I was issuing my beliefs in a calm manner unlike what you did in this post.

Also, don't make prejudice statements against me.
~What prejudiced statement? I was calling it as I saw it. To explain, I was incensed that you had the nerve to treat Dave that way. He is kind enough to provide and moderate this forum for us to use,and use pretty liberally, and you turn on him like that?
You don't know anything about me. You would probably think I was an adult if I didn't tell you otherwise. And I do understand there is a lot to learn, but what makes you think you've learned it and I haven't?
~I never claimed to have learned it all. Everyday I learn something new and many times it's like getting knocked upside the head.
Maybe you're right and I was acting immature, but at least I'm adult enough to admit it!


[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 24, 2000).]

The reason why I am not admitting to acting immature is because I wasn't acting immature. You can have your opinion on the way I conducted myself, however, my opinion is that I did the best i'm capable of and you should respect the fact that I am accually here defending myself against adults that insist on being rude and offensive. The funny part is that I am conducting myself in a more mature manner than the both of you. If you really want me to accept your opinions and seriously take them into consideration, do so in a positive way without insulting me. You should have learned those lessons in pre-school.

I am sorry I reacted the way I did to DaveW. I shouldn't have threatened to sue. I didn't intent for that, I was simply showing that by banning me it violated my rights. I feel as though I conducted myself to the best of my ability, if you have a problem with that then tough luck. I doubt that you guys are conducting yourselves to the best of your ability, because more maturity should be expected from a person that has gone through high school and college (hopefully)...

Give me a break guys, I know you are just going to respond to this post with some more smartass remarks and quite frankly I'm getting tired of it. Email me your flames so I can discuss them with you personally, because this isn't the place for a personal discussion. This is a place for Religious discussion. Please do the right thing and act your age.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 24, 2000).]

Obviously, the bat-cape didn't suffice. Red boots and blue tights won't work, either; Lori's got Kryptonite.

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I'm not here to change Lori's mine. It would be a futile effort because she won't listen. I said my opinion and as you can see she still loves her little jesus, like i care?

I have made my point about religion in the many posts of this thread. In my opinion Lori has been talking mindlessly and not sticking to the facts. Take what she said for example:
Faith comes from a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST and that's it. Period. If you don't know Him, you ain't getting to heaven. That relationship is where the "proof" comes from. It's undeniable, but you HAVE to see for yourself. No one else, no church, no minister, no parent, no one, can do it for you.
So tell me where this relationship comes from? How did you develop this relationship? Did your parents bring you to find this relationship? If shown proof against this relationship would you still have faith in it? And if I hafta see for myself does that imply that you have already seen something that undoubtably proves the existance of a supreme being? If my parents, church, or minister can't help me find this relationship with jesus, then why are they here? Also, what makes you think jesus was the son of god? Many other religions don't think that, so does that mean they are exluded from the personal relationship between themselves and god? And what god would this be? Are you implying that every religion has their own seperate supreme being? If I would go start my own religion would that mean that somehow another supreme being would be introduced into the great beyond?

Okay I feel as though I poked enough holes into Lori's argument. Accually i'm gonna rant on another portion of her post:
And to your next point, scientific discoveries regarding the flesh of man in no way shape or form make religion obsolete. To me, it reinforces my faith. All science does is physically describe how God does what He does, or made what He made. It doesn't tell you why does it? I tell you what, you answer the question why using your science, and this big dummy will shut up.
Where does this basis of faith come from? How come nobody takes greek mythology seriously? Because we have already learned that the sun isn't Apollo on his chariot. Scientific discoveries have a profound impact on religion. What makes you think that christanity can't be disproven just as easily as greek mythology? Does christainty give descriptions of the world in which we live? (of course, exp: adam and eve) Do Adam and Eve accuratly depict the development of the human species as modern science now knows?

Good luck at getting your story straight Lori, because your opinions have some big gaps to fill.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 24, 2000).]

I've decided that Chaos' rudeness earlier was out of misunderstanding, and that is all.

chaos,

I not being mean becuase of what you did. It is becuase you are struting around saying you are right and everyone else is wrong and that you have stated facts that prove it. When it is clear by somne of your other statments that and lack of "facts" you don't have anything to back them up. You even asked if I was willing to test you resolve on this, and yes I am.

In a way everyone who has come down on you has been a role model. They do this by smacking you around (well with words any way). There comes a point when you are growing up that you no longer need some one to hold your and walk you through life, but need to go out and interact with people and get you but kicked a few for being a punk. It teaches a verry good leason.

In a way everyone who has come down on you has been a role model. They do this by smacking you around (well with words any way). There comes a point when you are growing up that you no longer need some one to hold your and walk you through life, but need to go out and interact with people and get you but kicked a few for being a punk. It teaches a verry good leason.

Yes, I have learned a very good lesson from all of this now that you mention it. I must always trust in myself.

Not many people know it but I am a very philosophical person. To put it simply, we are mammals that got a better brain than the rest. Everything we know about reality has come from a certain influences. How do you know that these influences are correct? How do we know they aren't correct? The only way to discover truth is to trust in yourself as the influence. No other influences can be more credible than yourself.

In case you don't understand, we see reality as it has been told to us. To find the truth you must look at things for yourself and judge them.

Religion is one of those things that is told to us. Did you ever stop to ponder its truth? Did you ever stop to think what it would be like to have different influences in your life? Don't look outside for your answers, look to yourself...

I live in a christian family, but when I look to myself I see things more clearly and more understandable. I see the world as a simple place. I don't see a god, I don't see anything. Afterall we are just mammals, these are our priorities: Food is good, sleep is good, taking a piss is good, taking a shit is good, having sex is good, killing for any of the above is good, death is bad. Without influences we base reality on our instincts, not the bible.

Thanks,
-Ryan

This is my most well thought out post I have ever written. Please read my words carefully, as I have put a lot of thought into them.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 24, 2000).]

That is very good Chaos so you are going back to the "cogito ergo sum" of Descartes. Good start however I think you are a bit overzealous when you cancel out any influences just to get out of religions reach. For without influences you won't have a language in which to think. Ok, so we have a bigger brain then most other mammals, that doesn't mean we know how to use it from the day we are born.
We are thought how to use it, Tarzan is an imaginary character that was raized by monkeys but thought himself to read just by looking at books. You see how silly this sounds ?
We are a bit blinded by the fact that humanity is constituted out of several individuals, we think these individuals are the basic unit that holds all the characteristics that the whole has, a bit like a molecule holds all the chemical characteristics that a mol of them has.
This might be true for the molecule but it isn't true for the individual human, what we are doing constantly is interacting with all the other people around is. This interaction is not to be taken lightly, I submit it is what makes us ourselves. Our body hardware, sort of speak, is but a focal point of a whole set of interactions with our environment (which constitutes the people we come in contact with, the other living beings that surround us and the physical things that surround us) what makes us ourself at any given instant or place is a direct consequence of all these interactions.

This implies however that something as fleating as faith in a god becomes a lot more substantial if your environment supports this notion. Simply talking about this god already gives him al lot more credibility then if it was just an idea popping in your mind.
Again, I don't see how belief in a god could mean any harm as long as this belief doesn't force you to do things against other that would be harmful. I see this belief more as an innocent by product of the interaction processes that make us who we are. If I choose not to share them that is my decision.

------------------
I err, therefore I exist !

Chaos,

"I am sorry I reacted the way I did to DaveW. I shouldn't have threatened to sue."

Very good!! Methinks you have learned something after all!

Good for you, Chaos, I am very glad to see you've taken a bit of responsibility for your actions towards Dave.

You've got an attitude on you, kid, and that's not all bad. Sometimes in this life you DO need to really stand up for yourself and not pull any punches, but it's also important to realize sometimes it's best to follow the rules. And sometimes when you are out of line, others in society will shove you back in. I think this post of yours shows maybe you thought twice about your actions, and that's great. That's a sign of TRUE maturity, and I'm glad to see it from you.

I don't dislike you entirely, Chaos, hard as that may be to believe. You behaved like a jerk, I called you on it. Of course you didn't like it, who likes to be criticized? But I think you did listen, and that was the whole point. You've still got an attitude that will most likely cause you problems again, but you'll get smacked around again if you let it get the best of you, and sooner or later you'll get that licked too.

Having said that...

You never did respond to my earlier post. Any comments??

And this:
"Religion is one of those things that is told to us. Did you ever stop to ponder its truth? Did you ever stop to think what it would be like to have different influences in your life? Don't look outside for your answers, look to yourself..."

This may be your situation, Chaos, but it is not everyone's. There are a great number of people raised with no religion at all and a great number of people also discard the religion they were brought up with and choose a new one.

I, at your age, was agnostic. I had considered myself atheist in my younger years, but realized I didn't really know for sure one way or the other at about age 15 and claimed agnosticism. My parents were raised in differing faiths and were fed up with the whole B.S. and so they raised myself & my sister to be non-religious. We never attended church, we never talked about God (other than you shouldn't use "God" or "Jesus" as cuss words), I was never TOLD anything about religion. My grandmother used to read "stories" out of the bible to me when I was really young, but that was just about it.

And yet I am now religious. I have Faith, with a capital "F". Not in Jehova, or Jesus, that's not where my path led me. I found Paganism a perfect fit with my morals and personal philosophy, and am happy in my earth-centric spirituality. The bible to me is no more or less valid than the Quor'an, the Rig Veda, or the Book of the Dead.

There y'go Chaos, I read your post quite carefully. Feeling better? :)

Can I be a pagan?

Infinity,

You sure can, little bird.

Chaos,

I'm having some trouble trying to decide whether or not to post to you. I really don't want to...as it seems so entirely futile, but I don't want to give into that idea either. So I'll have a little faith, and I'll kindly ask you to tone down the ego please...it's fucking blinding ok? Listen, I know (I remember) that at your age, you have FAITH that you know everything there is to know, and that if us stupid geeky adults would just shut up and get out of your way, you could rule the world. But take heed youngster, and just please, please understand that you're wrong. I was wrong too, so don't feel bad. But seriously, if you really want to learn anything in life, you need to understand that you don't already have all of the answers. If you already think you have all of the answers, then you stop questioning. And even if you do question, you don't ask the right ones necessarily, you reject all answers that don't match yours automatically, and you don't even ask questions for the right reason. What is your intent here? Why are you asking me these questions? Do you really want to know, or do you just like to read yourself? It's like you're asking to patronize, cause you already know the answer, and you're not even shy about presenting it that way. I don't like your attitude. You need to check that ego, and check into some humility. One thing I've learned since I was your age is this...if different people keep telling you the same thing about yourself over and over...then even if you may not realize it about yourself, or see it yourself...what they are saying is true. You can bank on it. See, it's the same thing as you thinking your 5% of the population are right and everyone else is wrong. You think you're right, and everyone else is wrong on this board, in regards to your behavior. Believe me, you're immature. Period. Accept it, you'll be better off for it.

Now then, first of all, I want your credentials. If you claim to have all of the answers, then I need to know from what source of knowledge or experience have these answers come? How much study and research have you done regarding spirituality and major world religions? How much of the Bible have you read? How much additional interpretive material have you studied? How many books on spirituality and religion have you read? How many moral paradoxes have you encountered in your lifetime (ha), and how did you solve them, and what did you learn? What are some of your trials and sufferings and how have you overcome them? What have you found to be the meaning of life and why? How do you decide what is right and what is wrong? Do you even believe in such a thing, or is everything relative, and if so, then how would you prove it? What is good and evil and where does it come from? Or is that made up too? Where does your law come from? Your government, parents, school? How do you know that they're right? And if you think that you're just some animal, then why the hell do you even give a crap about it anyway? And my last question would be...then how in the hell do you get the idea that you're qualified to have an answer regarding anything in life accept maybe the latest fashion trend or the hottest teen idol or some sports stats???????????

Listen, if you REALLY want to know, then convince me of it, and we can talk. Otherwise, kiss my booty.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 25, 2000).]

Hey everybody! ~
Lori! Hey there lady! How do you really feel? :D
Good point about Chaos' age and knowing it all. Been so F'n long ago since I was that age I forgot.
PEACE

I rolled my eyes so much at that age that I'm surprised they didn't get stuck that way for good. LMAO! :rolleyes:

My fashion sense alone should have clued me in that something was terribly wrong. Hey Chaos, do you wear your pants so baggy around the waist that they're always falling down and showing off your undies? ROFLMAO!!!

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Show some respect, I am a taxpayer like the rest of you. I contribute to this county probably more than other people my age. I don't like it when you stereotype me because of my age.

Lori, I am open to outside opinions. However, when it comes to this issue I find opinions defending religion to be false and full of gaps. Give me something that will turn my opinion upside-down. I doubt you can do that because religion has little evidence and is based on religious faith, of which i have none!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Chaos ~
Your attitude is peeking through.
You don't demand respect, you have to earn it.
You pay taxes? Good for you! Is this you first year? Welcome to the world of getting over taxed by the gov't!

Fine Chaos, how's this...Jesus is real...He talks to me...I can hear Him in my head...He tells me things about myself...and always that He loves me...regardless of the other things He tell me about myself...LOL...He teaches me things...about how to be happy...about what's really important...about what's right and what's wrong...and in that, He teaches me about Himself...He's a real person. Now then, what do you think about that? Is that good enough for you? And I'm dead serious too, and don't you dare make any unfounded assumptions about me either. You want my credentials, you ask me anything you want to know about me, and I'll be honest. Fair?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Oh Lori! ~
Can I ask you anything about yourself??!! Please, Please!! :D

Lori,

Just say no to Heathen. Trust me!

LOL!! :D (I'm kidding, he's not TOO much of a pervert...)

Shaddup MC!
Okay, let's not kill this string!
My oh my, are y'all an active buch today!

please, lori? :D

...stifling smart-ass comments....can't...hold...out..much...longer....

:) :D :) :D :) :D

Originally posted by Lori:
Fine Chaos, how's this...Jesus is real...He talks to me...I can hear Him in my head...He tells me things about myself...and always that He loves me...regardless of the other things He tell me about myself...LOL...He teaches me things...about how to be happy...about what's really important...about what's right and what's wrong...and in that, He teaches me about Himself...He's a real person
Oh that's great, now you have an imaginary friend. Yeah I had one when i was a little kid, but his name wasn't Jesus it was Bob. But, what does that have to do with religion?

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Chaos ~
Are you trying to piss everybody off, or does that talent come naturally?
I am not religious at all, but even I know that the big J.C. was the son of god (as the story goes). And being such, wouldn't you tend to think that he just might be able to communicate with the devout?
Not everything is cut and dry, black or white. There is a huge gray area here. Use a little imagination where applicable.
You may be right, then again, maybe not.

[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 25, 2000).]

Chaos--

I would advise that there are better ways to address one's talk of religious visions, et cetera. Lori, herself, demonstrated one of those to me, once, when her response was, simply, "But I just don't believe you."

That's all you gotta say. Anything else becomes extraneous, and fuels the fire which you apparently seek to quell.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa!

Hey man, welcome back to looney-town! Haven't seen much of you lately! What, you been working or something?? :D :D

I'm having some trouble trying to decide whether or not to post to you.


Prove it!

That's all you gotta say. Anything else becomes extraneous, and fuels the fire which you apparently seek to quell.

Prove it!

Hey, Moon ... ;)

Why thank ye, m'dear. I've been doing some ranting and raving over in World Affairs about various things. And I've been here, too, but not much. The current threads aren't holding my interest for some reason (reading too much Salinger, I think) and I can't think of anything I really want to drag us all through for the time being. Rest assured, though, I will find some way to be a pain in the ass sometime soon here. :D

thanx much ...
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

When did I say that I didn't believe you?! I believe you...that is when I can understand what you're saying anyway. LOL!

Heathen,

What in the hell do you want?!

Chaos,

There ya go. An imaginery friend...brilliant. *applause*

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Chaos,

There ya go. An imaginery friend...brilliant. *applause*

ROFLOL@Lori!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hang in there, girl!

Lori--

Not to be picking on you, per se, but it was a great functional standard:

And geez, you know, you've told me that you've talked to Him, but I just don't believe you. You haven't given me one iota of evidence that you have. You haven't told me what He said to you, or how He made you feel, or what He did to your heart. Jesus doesn't harden people's hearts, we do that ourselves in denial of Him. So what's your problem? You told me once that you two had some agreement...like He wouldn't expect you to worship Him, if you wouldn't go around preaching or some such shit. Can you just explain to me, in vocabulary that I can understand, what the hell that even means?

That's the only reason I dragged your name into it. ;)

oh ... http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000315-4.html is where it's at, in Pash's Lord, Lunatic, or Liar thread. Your 6/16 post, listed 12:57 PM.

I guess those details are important, too. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:



------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Lori you haven't answered my question.

What does an imaginary friend have to do with religion? The description of your relationship with Jesus describes a little kids relationship with an imaginary friend. But that kid doesn't consider it religious!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Maybe there can be a way to cure this dillusion. So perhaps we can get you some help.

Goes back to my point, Religion is a Joke!!!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 26, 2000).]

Originally posted by Lori:
Heathen,

What in the hell do you want?!

[/B]

Que? I'm not following your question. Want in the lines of what?

Heathen,

Que?!? What the hell does that mean? LOL! What do you want to know? You keep saying "Please, please?". What do you want?

Chaos,

Jesus is not imaginery, you ignorant slut.

Tiassa,

Oooooooooooh. ok. So what if I do believe you? I do actually. I don't think that you're a liar you know? But if I remember correctly, you didn't answer that post did you? You never expounded upon your little arrangement with the Big Guy. My point was that what you said about your encounter with Him didn't make sense to me, and I was looking for a little explanation, which of course, you may feel free to provide right here, right now. Spank you very much. See, I've been talking to you for what, a year now, and I still can't figure you and Jesus out, and that's the ONLY f'ing thing I've been trying to do. And you keep talking about your flippin' books. :rolleyes: Now come on already...

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 26, 2000).]

Lori ~
AAhhhhh, I'm following you now.
Just being perverted! But if there is anything you want to volunteer... :D

Oh, being perverted...I see. That's a sin, you know? And I know what que is...duh...

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori ~
That's why I didn't respond to your l'il 'que' crack. You big silly... :D
Perversion is a sin? DAMNIT!! Oh well, god made me what I am... :D

Once a Heathen...

p.s. does that mean i have to spend all of eternity sitting outside the pearly gates?

Lori you just mad because you can't prove religion isn't a joke!!!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Saying you have a personal relationship with jesus, and that he talks to you doesn't make religion true or give proof. I thought you were smart enought to know that. I guess I was wrong!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Lori, it appears to me as though your the "ignorant slut" as you so delightfully put it!!!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Lori,

See? I told you to say no to Heathen! ROFL!!

Lori ...

A little refresher here, just to get us up to speed.

Way back when we first discussed my religious visions, it was in a specific context. Namely, that we must be careful about what we call religious visions, revelations, or epiphanies of God. It seems that a general trend is in place, which I have observed repeatedly, here:

* Any "religious vision" of Christian context that reinforces--even abstractly--traditional notions of Jesus seems to be acceptable; however, anything which seems unorthodox to traditional Church notions of Christianity, is the work of the Devil, or an hallucination. For instance, to talk about tears falling from nowhere, dripping onto the pages of a Bible is construed as something about Christ's mercy or his glory ... yet a conversation with the Wise Son about the sycophantic nature of Christian practice is either unbelievable or confusing?

Okay ... when I was 14, the whole Christian world around me was lying. This I offer for context. Lutherans were represented to me by a pastor with a penchant for violence and insult when frustrated. When I was 15, I hit Catholic school, where a number of odd hypocrisies existed: student Mass on Friday Morning, blowjobs at a party on Friday evening. Parents beating their children in the name of Jesus' mercy. Drunken priests spouting that drugs were from the Devil. Freedom of speech reserved for those with nothing outside the official party-line to say. Needless to say, the Kingdom Hall, Jerry Falwell, and fights over abortion and free speech dominated my image of the rest of Christianity. Televangelist Bob Tilton represented the lowest form of Christianity, and the faithful just ate it up.

Thus, one day, a friend and I had enough. Specifically, a week after Geraldo Rivera aired a two-hour polemic against Satanism in music, we were called to answer for the mutilations of several horses killed in the farthest corner of Pierce County, Washington, from my home. It was even funnier because, as a result of the geography of our student body, my friend would have had to drive a hundred miles (30 to the school, 20 more to my house, and 50 miles to the site) just to sneak onto Old MacDonald's farm and play E-I-E-I-O on bovine larynxes. What was the evidence by which we were accused? Someone brought the article into school, went to the priests, and said, "Brian and Dario are Satanists." They asked, apparently, how that person knew, and were told, "They listen to evil music." That was enough for them. (It was the first of two times I was wrongly accused of felonious activity; in the latter case, theft, the actual perpetrator was A) Catholic, B) of a family with a longstanding relationship to the school, and C) asked his Catholic friends (no generalizations on "Catholic friends") to accuse two other people. Thus another friend and I found ourselves being physically thrown about a locker room by three football coaches for violating the sanctity of the school's women; apparently, the guy was stealing purses and also underwear from the girls' PE bags.

This is all so you get to see the atmosphere, dig?

So after the horse-killing bit, Dario and I decided to give them their wish. We named our Gods, took up a logo, and simply held our quiet court, arguing not against Christianity, per se, but against the dumb quirks of Christianity, like a "Pro Life" person demanding the death penalty. Needless to say, the "conversion" bore immediate fruit. People were instantly scared of us, for no good reason. On more than one occasion, people simply running into us as they turned corners (seriously, incidental contact that we all go through from time to time) would say, "I'm sorry, please don't hurt me."

Funny, in the two years we carried that on, we only got in about six fights altogether. At no time did we fight.

Thus, as the Christians around me began to behave exactly as I expected (expectations based on nothing but sheer prejudice and reactionary conclusions), my personal sense of power began to grow.

Still with me? ;)

At the end of my junior year, a young-buck freshman, a socially-excluded genius, actually, asked to form a coven. Would've been well and fine, but he was, as a genius and outsider, less stable than I was prepared to manage. It was cause for contemplation.

At the beginning of my senior year, the Devil finally answered me, and this is where we must be careful. Of my first "religious vision", I can say a couple of things definitively:

* The Devil looked exactly like Anton LaVey with goat's feet in a purple tau robe.
* The wreckage of my town was like a comic-book: melted goal-posts, rubble where buildings were, piles of spilled books burning in the streets.

What transpired was that Ahriman (from Ahura-Mazda) opened his arms and promised me all that I could see. I said, "But it's destroyed. I do not want this."

The Devil said: "This is what you have asked for. This is what we do."

I said, "This is not what we do. This is what They do. I do not want this."

The Devil then reminded me a little of Keifer Sutherland in Lost Boys, offering me gifts: "To live forever? To never want or need, and always have?"

"This," I said, "Is not what I asked. I do not want this."

"You cannot ever leave me," said the Devil.

"I never will unless you ask me to," I said. "But this is not our work."

And, at that, I was mercifully rescued by the most obnoxious-sounding alarm clock. Thus ends the tale of my first religious vision.

Meeting the other side, however, was an enlightening experience in itself, though much more vague. In a building that reminded me vaguely of St Aloysius chapel at my high school (except for the stained glass; there was more, though I didn't look at it, but the sunlight in the room was more diverse). Above the altar hung our garish crucifix, though no Christ hung from it. In the corner, near the door to the tabernacle, sat the quiet figure of a tired man.

"I know you," I said.

"And I, you," he said.

"Why am I here?" I said.

"I thought you knew," he said.

"I don't hate you," I said.

"I know," he said. "I never thought you did."

"But why am I here?"

At that point, we talked briefly; the details of this part of the conversation are a little weird. A few things about candy corn, children in diapers, and Ford automobiles, and suddenly I'm there complaining to him about the nature of his church.

"It isn't that I hate you," I said, "But I can't stand with you."

"They are not always my flock," he told me. "They will talk loudly, and bow in submission, but their hearts are black."

I explained that I didn't understand the kowtowing, that "They" were just forgiving themselves in order to sin again. It seemed pointless.

"It is," he said. "For who are they to worship My name? They know me not, and beg daily for their selfish ends. Who are they to assume I require worship?"

"It's hard not to hate," I said.

"No," he told me. "It isn't. Daily they persist in their petitions and their praise, yet they believe I am among the highest forms in the world. I cannot do my work with all the noise."

"What is to be done?"

"What you know is right. Anything else is just a demonstration. Anything else is just an excuse."

And, frankly, I just remember being awake.

See, the point of that, originally, was that my religious visions are as valid as the next person's. I even advised that it would be better to write religious visions off as psychosis; the implications of mine, I noted, were not traditionally harmonious.

Generally speaking, I usually write these up to various neuroses from my childhood. However, it seems that any hysterical person can claim to see Jesus, and as long as that vision reflects what a good pal Jesus is, it's legit. When we first discussed these visions, the point was that to deny their legitimacy calls into question the legitimacy of all religious visions.

Part of it is this: Jesus would be an excellet drinking buddy; but he's told me he doesn't want my fealty.

But even as neuroses, I still conclude the most valuable thing I've ever learned in my associations with the Christian church: that it isn't about winning or losing; there's nothing to win. The Devil doesn't want a fight and Jesus doesn't know what to do about y'all. It works well enough, especially in the conceptual extrapolation.

Now, then ... if'n ye choose not to believe this one, what, then, of the other visions and experiences described at Exosci?

Submitting to God is not found in any church. It's found in living life to the fullest possible joy. I feel quite secure, in a visionary sense, that Jesus, even, doesn't like spending Sundays in church.

But that's just me ... ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa! Thank God! Finally, phew! That only took a flippin' year to get out of you. So now then, you talked to Jesus, you know you did, so what's the problem? Have you talked to Him since, or was that it? You don't want to believe it yourself do you? But you do; you can't deny it, you just want to very much, cause it warps your near-genius brain right? Well, tough noogies. So you talked to Jesus, you shared His concern...YOU TALKED TO JESUS, THE SON OF GOD...and that's just no biggie to you or what? If I had a nickel for every time I've argued with you over the sins of the "church" and how that is no excuse for not believing, but a really good excuse for believing. What is your deal? You get it don't you? You totally get it, and it scares you doesn't it?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Wow Tiassa!

I didn't know that about you!

So, now I'm confused. (not that it takes much...) I could have sworn you were a Pagan like myself & Searcher, did I mistake something?

Wow, Tiassa!!!!! Thank you so very much for sharing this with us! Actually, it was refreshing!!

Take care!!!

Flash

1 Corinthians, Chapter 13 SAB

13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
13:4
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
13:5
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

13:7
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Tiassa,

How did it make you feel emotionally when you talked to Him? How did you know Him before you spoke? It's like you've known Him a long time ago or forever, but you couldn't see Him or something like that? And Tiassa, the whole point is that you CAN stand with HIM. You don't have to stand with anyone else, that's the whole point. Worship is a word that takes a new meaning in the secular world you know? What worship is to God is nothing more than an exercise of one's faith, which is nothing more than an acceptance of God's will. Worship is inherent in the realization of who He is, and who He is to you. It's not about empty prayers, or rituals of any kind, or books, or preachers, or what other people do or think or say. It's about how YOU feel about HIM. And if you KNOW Him, you will worship Him, and you won't even mind, and it won't even hurt, it's just inherent. You know how much I appreciate my relationship with Him? More than I can say. It's definately the most important thing in my life. I can't imagine not knowing Him. I'd probably be dead. He's helped me so much. I'm not so good at this whole faith thing. I mean I get the concept real well, but exercising it is another story. But getting it is the meaning of my life. And He knows that. I don't even have to say it. He knows it already. And He knew I would before I did, and before I was born. He's a trip. I love Him. :)

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Okay ... when I was 14, the whole Christian world around me was lying.


Prove it!

Lutherans were represented to me by a pastor with a penchant for violence and insult when frustrated.

Prove it!


I appreciate my relationship with Him? More than I can say. It's definately the most important thing in my life.


Prove it!

Being that I got worked up about things elsewhere ... I'll keep it short. ;)

Lori

How did it make you feel emotionally when you talked to Him? How did you know Him before you spoke? It's like you've known Him a long time ago or forever, but you couldn't see Him or something like that? And Tiassa, the whole point is that you CAN stand with HIM.

I don't mean this at all rudely, though it's short form is rather clipped: I think part of the point, at least, is that it felt exactly like it should have, and I recognized him exactly as I should have because it's a process of the mind.

Emotionally? I'm usually neutral, generally a little nervous when someone of any importance has an interest in me. Such it was, this time. More a sense of curiosity, that anticipation at wondering just how much freakin' trouble you're actually in. But whether I stand with him or not is generally irrelevant to me because I don't acknowledge anything other than psychology, or an inner "divine spark" that makes Bibles, churches, prayers and devotions unnecessary. Somehow, I've wandered a path to accommodate both those possibilities.

Moon

All this takes place before I found a friend in the Goddess; in fact, it's probably integral to the adventure that landed me in her company. I should add that I'm a horrible son in that respect: where Jesus doesn't want the overwhelming devotions, it seems that all Mother asks is that I write a little more often. ;)

What's odd to think about in terms of paganism is that my pentacle finally left me recently; it was ill-given and it's no coincidence to me that certain relationships have fallen apart in the interim--specifically, the relationship with the person whose motivations for giving it to me were less than pure. That it chose to leave in the middle of a Divine Shortcut--a psilocybin trip at a Roger Waters show--is even more appropriate; it was time to let this one go and find the essence anew, apparently.

Go figure. Maybe I'm a Pagan Universalist. How's that sound for a cheap title? :D

But I will go so far as to nakedly reassure you that I still consider myself vastly pagan. Sure, I can talk to Jesus in a dream-church, but the Lady ... need I explain it to you? (You ever taste moonlight?)

Flash

If I forego comment now, please accept that I owe such verses better consideration than my present haste allows.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa,

"Sure, I can talk to Jesus in a dream-church, but the Lady ... need I explain it to you? "

Nah, I'm with you on that one. :) She's quite the Woman, isn't She?

"(You ever taste moonlight?)" Actually, no! I tend to be a more sound-oriented person I guess, I have heard it whisper to me on more than one occasion. Did you know the color green has a lovely baritone voice? I've taken to meditating on a different color each night in recent weeks, and discovered I'd been "hearing" them for some time without noticing. Green's my favorite color (hm, a pagan fond of the color green, go figure, LOL), so maybe that's why I noticed his voice first. To my surprise, pink also has a male voice, but red is female! (at least to me, of course. And no, I'm not getting a helping hand from our friend LSD, LOL) But I'm really wandering here.

One thing I have noticed about the Pagans I have met is their sincere respect for Jesus. Not what I expected to say the least. I spend a lot of time on a pagan BBS and once someone posted a rather nasty comment about Jesus, and I was pleasantly surprised at the number of people that came back and said that it was inappropriate and disrespectful, and the board host posted that if it happened again that person's rights would be revoked! There was no foul language, no sexual innuendo, the warning was based strictly on the bashing of Jesus. That was very nice.

I haven't ever met Jesus, personally. I made an invitation awhile ago, an open-house sort of thing, but so far he hasn't dropped by. Busy guy, I suppose. :) I imagine he'll make it around to my door eventually, when he does, maybe I'll ask him about Lori's alien theory. :) Maybe he doesn't stop by because he knows I don't really need him, there have got to be so many voices clamoring for his attention, I really don't feel shunned by his lack of attention. Meanwhile, the Green Couple are keeping me busy. I haven't been visited "personally" in awhile, but I've had enough daytime flickers that I know They're still with me. I have Faith. :)

Speaking of Faith, it's a lovely thing, isn't it? It's something I didn't use to have, I spent many years distrustful and depressed. Of course, that's spanning my teen years too, so that's not too surprising. I found my husband, and that cheered me a bit, but at every turn I kept expecting him to be snatched away from me. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now, my faith tells me that he won't leave me - even if this life ends for one of us there is another, and another, and another to follow behind, and the depth and strength of our bond is enough to carry us through together, I'm sure of it.

We plan to be handfasted in a year or two once our current transition is completed (trying to move to a new town & buy a house in a year, lots of work). When I described it to my husband, what it's about, what it's for, etc. He told me it would be a re-handfasting, since it must have been done at least once before in our previous lives. Surprising to me, since before that point he hadn't really committed one way or the other about past lives, but I feel in my bones he's probably correct. Refreshing, heartening, and a great joy. We will, are, and have been following eachother from incarnation to incarnation, I'll bet my pentagram on it. :)

Faith has made me virtually fearless. I'm moving (to a town very near Searcher, in fact :) ), trying to find a new job for myself & my hubby, trying to buy a house...and I'm not stressed about it in the least. I will find the job I'm meant to have. I will find the house I'm meant to have. It will work, I am sure of it. As long as I don't stress and worry and clog those spiritual arteries with scattered vibrations, I will know when I've found my niche. That's what Faith has given to me.

Now I just gotta figure out what I can give back!

Lori,

You da bomb! :) :) :) :)
You go girl! :) :)
That's what a New Zealander trying to sound American says! How'd I do?
As for you Chaos, get your head out of your butt and grow up. You're young (not that I'm much older really I guess) and have a lot to learn about what the rest of the world has to offer, you're only scratching the surface of youthful arrogance. Don't worry I know what it's like to think your always right, I sometimes have to catch myself! :)

Don't worry I know what it's like to think your always right, I sometimes have to catch myself!


Prove it!