I have been a believer in God for most of my life, but lately I've been questioning the existence of an all powerful, all loving creator. I mean really...what pleasure would an all loving god get in damning the people that don't believe he exists to hell? And why does he let people go out and kill people in His name. I'm just a bit confused about this whole thing. This makes me think I've been played for a fool...I really hope I haven't, because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living? All I know is if I were God I don't think I would force my own creations to believe in me...really I mean YOUR GOD!!!! How much flattery do you need? Also I wouldn't present my self so selfishly the way he does...well anyway, I would like someone to tell me why and don't use circular logic on me (i.e. god is god because he says he's god so he is).

Hello, as an atheist what I can offer is this: Believe in what works for you. So what if the notion of a trigger happy god exists? Does it outweigh the benefits of faith, such as love, understanding, humility, etc? Also, if it has worked for you in the past it might be a tad unwise to throw off something that has served you well. I'm only atheist because the philosophy works for me.

If it continues to bother you, I suggest that you focus on the positive parts and the spirit, rather than the letter of the religion.

I lack the theology to refute that the notion of a gunhappy god makes him not merciful, so I won't try.

Theists, anything to offer?


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

Originally posted by Nymph
I have been a believer in God for most of my life, but lately I've been questioning the existence of an all powerful, all loving creator. I mean really...what pleasure would an all loving god get in damning the people that don't believe he exists to hell? And why does he let people go out and kill people in His name. I'm just a bit confused about this whole thing. This makes me think I've been played for a fool...I really hope I haven't, because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living? All I know is if I were God I don't think I would force my own creations to believe in me...really I mean YOUR GOD!!!! How much flattery do you need? Also I wouldn't present my self so selfishly the way he does...well anyway, I would like someone to tell me why and don't use circular logic on me (i.e. god is god because he says he's god so he is).

Life is the point of living. I believe the Divine manifests itself in all things, and this is its way of experiencing Life, the Universe, and everything ;) - through everyone and everything in it.

Here are the words of Jesus when the Jews wanted to stone him for saying he was the Son of God:

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Does this help?

Welcome to sciforums. :)

Thanks Nehushta, but I'm going to need a little more than that to settle my thoughts

This makes me think I've been played for a fool...I really hope I haven't, because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living?

Seems to me you answered your own question.

Welcome.

"All I know is if I were God I don't think I would force my own creations to believe in me...really I mean YOUR GOD!!!! How much flattery do you need? Also I wouldn't present my self so selfishly the way he does...well anyway, I would like someone to tell me why and don't use circular logic on me (i.e. god is god because he says he's god so he is)."

God seems rather human, eh? Amazing that no matter what animal head we put on it or what powers we give, god always seems incredibly human.

No God does not mean there is no meaning to life... Just that you must give meaning yourself. What is important to you? Define your own moral code, not according to a God, but according to yourself, and stick true to that moral code as you would a bible. Start looking at life in the 1st person... It's very exciting... Once you stop focusing on what you'd be leaving behind by rejecting the idea of a God, you'll realize all you've gained... With no afterlife you can REALLY learn to appreciate life. Live it every day to the fullest. Create your heaven on earth. In time you will probably become alot stronger and independant cause you will now be forced to deal with your mistakes, and realize you will not always be forgiven. You will take responsibility for your life, and it will pay off. I was religious once. And I wasn't one of the "I hate God, so I'll be athiest" which is totally illogical. I just realized it didn't make sense one day... And I started looking at life as my own, and it was up to me what I made of it, not an all-powerful director... A very limited me... But I've suprised myself already with what I've accomplished. So best of luck on however you decided to go from this point...

And welcome to sciforums!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nymph
I mean really...what pleasure would an all loving god get in damning the people that don't believe he exists to hell?

He doesn't damn them to hell, we damn ourselves to hell through our selfish actions.

And why does he let people go out and kill people in His name.

Which people are you refering to?

This makes me think I've been played for a fool...

It means you don't understand who and what God is, nor our relationship with Him.
Try asking questions without giving your own answers.

All I know is if I were God I don't think I would force my own creations to believe in me...

You're already stating that God forces His creation to believe in Him, already you are losing the battle of understanding. You are not God, so the first thing to find out is, who is.

How much flattery do you need?

God does not need flattery, He is Absolute. It is to "our" benifit to worship God, He knows this perfectly.

Also I wouldn't present my self so selfishly the way he does...well anyway, I would like someone to tell me why and don't use circular logic on me (i.e. god is god because he says he's god so he is).

You said you've been a believer in God for most of your life, what exactly did you believe, I mean how did belief in God manifest itself to your consciousness.

Love

Jan Ardena.

"I mean really...what pleasure would an all loving god get in damning the people that don't believe he exists to hell?"
Hell is eternal seperation from God, we choose it ourselves by choosing to reamin seperate from him even after we learn about him. Everyday you choose whether you are going to face God and live with HIm or if you are going to turn your back, if you continually turn your back then God says 'ok, thats what you chose, so thats what you get for all of eternity'

"And why does he let people go out and kill people in His name."
I'm just gonna assume you mean people like Hitler.............God doesnt want people to kill in His name, in fact He specifically says not too, however He gave us free will so in order to allow us to have our free will he must let us go out and kill in His name because to stop us from doing it he would be forcing himself upon the person, which He will never do

"This makes me think I've been played for a fool...I really hope I haven't, because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living?"
It has been my experience that there is none. If there isn't a god then what is the point of 80 years on earth? there is absolutly none so it stands to reason that there is some point to all this and God and the afterlife seem to be a pretty good point to it all logically!


"All I know is if I were God I don't think I would force my own creations to believe in me"
As I previously stated, God does not force anyone to believe in HIm

"...really I mean YOUR GOD!!!! How much flattery do you need? "
I dont worship God because he's a childish, arrogant being and demands it, I worship Him because I see what an awsome and amazingly beautiful God he is and I just have to worship that which is so far above me!

"Also I wouldn't present my self so selfishly the way he does"
I've struggled with this thought that God seems kindof selfish sometimes since becoming a christian, but then as with the worship I find that I would do it even if God didnt say to do it.
Also in making this statment you are showing that you still do believe that the bible is God inspired, maybe you should return to the bible as figure out why you believe that!

good luck with this!

Originally posted by Nymph
This makes me think I've been played for a fool...I really hope I haven't, because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living?First off, you haven't been played for a fool. The question is a difficult one and most people take it seriously and are earnest in their convictions... relatively few people, I believe, are simply out to con others. Now as to whether those convictions are correct...

Secondly, if God does not exist then your life is your own. It is up to you then to determine its meaning and its value. Keep in mind though that when you are gone the only continuing meaning for your life will exist in the minds of others and in the impact your life has had upon the world. Every word and every action is important because that is all you have. No absolution can be given by an omnipotent third party. The only absolution you will get is that which you are able to forge with those who you have wounded or that which they give freely. Religion allows for you to commit murder and win absolution through repentance and subservience to God. Atheism insists that there is no absolution for murder... the offended party is dead.

~Raithere

P.S. Sorry, notme. I just read your post after leaving mine and I almost exactly repeated what you already said. Cool. :)

(edited for P.S.)

there is a reason you are feeling this crisis of faith. your faith has been based in teachings that don't feel right to you. that doesn't mean that there is no god. that just means that you haven't connected with or recognized your higher self yet - the window in you that god speaks through. i could try to answer all of your questions, as some others have done, but my answers would not be as convincing to you coming from me as they would coming from inside yourself.

it is important to understand that religion and god are not the same thing. i would suggest that you throw out the parts of the religious teachings that you know don't feel right to you. then i would suggest that you sit in a quiet place with a notebook, relax your mind, and ask your questions. write down all the answers that come to you. don't "think," just open your mind and let the answers float to the surface. this is one way to tap into what some may consider a "collective unconscious," or others label as the wisdom of god.

see what kind of answers you come up with and then we'll take it from there.... we'll all be awaiting your discoveries, if you feel like sharing them.

and please know that the search for understanding and connecting with god is, in itself, a reason to live.

Divorce theology from the pursuit of happiness.

Whether or not there is a god is a question of truth, not of what your emotions need. You can be an unhappy theist just as easily as an unhappy atheist, but neither of those is desirable, obviously. First figure out what it takes for you to be happy, and pursue it. Then, independently of your emotions, determine whether you think there is a god.

I agree, half of what I write just comes on sudden inspiration as I type and let my mind go. I choose to label it as wisdom of God but not everyone does. Try praying (even if you dont think you believe) that God will give you some answers and see what happens cause the bible says 'if you seek with all your heart you shall find Him'. so good luck!

This makes me think I've been played for a fool...I really hope I haven't, because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living?

The basic source of your existential angst is that you are assuming that there is a point to life. This is going to screw you because there really isn't. It is just a collection of stuff. By trying to extract meaning from this you inevitably bringing more and more absurdities and inconsistencies to your attention. There are various answers to your questions(certain theists are mindlessly reciting them in this very thread), however, the critical examination and curiousity that made you ask these questions will inevitably expose the explanations as incoherent and unconvincing. God is not an answer to the 'why?' questions, merely a way of stalling for time. The question you really should ask is: "Why 'why?'?"

Originally posted by New Life
I agree, half of what I write just comes on sudden inspiration as I type and let my mind go. I choose to label it as wisdom of God but not everyone does.I'm just curious as to why you would attribute this "sudden inspiration" to God and not to your own mind. I often do something very similar to this; it’s an idea generating practice that writers often use, known as stream of consciousness writing.

~Raithere

Originally posted by Tyler

God seems rather human, eh? Amazing that no matter what animal head we put on it or what powers we give, god always seems incredibly human. [/B]

Ah yes, and why in the seemingly endless cosmos would an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent entity display any of the attributes of a normal human? Perhaps, humans devised him? Ah, that seems feasible to me.

Ah yes, and why in the seemingly endless cosmos would an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent entity display any of the attributes of a normal human? Perhaps, humans devised him? Ah, that seems feasible to me.

At the sametime you could also say that maybe not God displays signs of humanity but maybe we display charistics of God
Genisis 1:27 and he created man in his own image.

Originally posted by Raithere
I'm just curious as to why you would attribute this "sudden inspiration" to God and not to your own mind. I often do something very similar to this; it’s an idea generating practice that writers often use, known as stream of consciousness writing.

~Raithere

Well, mainly because I have no idea how my own mind could have come up with some of it! some of it is obvious, like the basic 'jesus came to save the world from sin' rant, but there are things that i only know the basics of and suddenly I understand what is trying to be protrayed. Also, I never wrote suddenly like that before I became a christian.

Originally posted by snow

Genisis: 1:27 and he created man in his own image.

Vienna: 5 minutes to 11: God is a figment of human imagination.

:D

"stream of consciousness" writing always produces something greater than what you, alone, can create. why? because it flows through your mind onto the page without conscious effort, and while it flows it draws upon everything you have ever read, heard, seen, tasted, felt... (carl jung would argue that you also came into this world with knowledge embedded in your unconscious that you draw from - knowledge from the beginning of humankind on earth.)

drawing upon everything is drawing upon the "collective." some people consider this wisdom of the "collective" to be part of what they call god. whether you label it like that or not, (using the word god or collective or whatever) it remains that your creative work includes knowledge that has accumulated from a higher source than just you -> from ALL of us.

taking sole credit for something you create is ignoring the contribution of the collective. it is also the reason so many people (unnecessarily) struggle with issues of pride.

when i didn't understand this i used to say,"damn! look at what i just wrote! i must be a friggen' genius." i know better now.

This may be a little off-topic, but what Kidsun just said is why I believe in free music.

Originally posted by New Life
Well, mainly because I have no idea how my own mind could have come up with some of it! some of it is obvious, like the basic 'jesus came to save the world from sin' rant, but there are things that i only know the basics of and suddenly I understand what is trying to be protrayed.This gestalt experience is not unusual. There are various treatments, depictions, and explanations for it. In fact, it predominates in “Eastern” philosophy (meditation, Zen mind, the use of mandalas and koans, etc.) It is also well defined in “western” thought as well… composers and writers often call it their muse, athletes say they are in the “zone”. In short, one often may reach an epiphany (of thought and even action) by removing one’s conscious awareness from that which you are trying to accomplish. Taoism suggests that this is how you should live your entire life.

Also, I never wrote suddenly like that before I became a christian.Be wary of attributing too much significance to what may simply be coincidence.

~Raithere

What is the meaning of life on Earth if there is an eternal life? Does 80 years on Earth really that important for one's eternity? Does your god really care what you have done in every pico second?

BTW, if you have $1 trilion trillion trillion dollor coins, do you really care there is a scratch on one of the pennies in your mightly bank vault?

I must congratulate you on your realizations about the concept
of 'God'; however, it looks like it's left you in a very uncertain
state about your 'purpose'... or more specifically:

because if there really isn't a god then what's the point of living?

Let me see if I can provide just a few answers to this question:

A) The joy of caring for a loved one.
B) The thrill of exploring your world and universe.
C) The experience of having a water-fight with your friends.
...
...
...

Which basically means that you are in a wonderful position where
YOU define your own purpose(s) in life.