In general, Christians believe that they are supposed to do what God tells them to do. My question for the Christians here: are there any sorts of orders that you would refuse if you thought that they came from God? For example, in the bible God orders his followers to slaughter babies (and they do it). If God gave you that sort of order today, would you follow it? Or would you refuse God’s command, and tell him that you thought killing babies was simply wrong and that you weren’t going to do it?

In general, Christians believe that they are supposed to do what God tells them to do. My question for the Christians here: are there any sorts of orders that you would refuse if you thought that they came from God? For example, in the bible God orders his followers to slaughter babies (and they do it). If God gave you that sort of order today, would you follow it? Or would you refuse God’s command, and tell him that you thought killing babies was simply wrong and that you weren’t going to do it?

Well they revere a man who was split-seconds away from killing his OWN son because God told him to, so surely this proposition would be child's play. Excuse the pun.

Well they revere a man who was split-seconds away from killing his OWN son because God told him to, so surely this proposition would be child's play. Excuse the pun.
Personally I always thought it would have been a much better story if he had flatly refused, and God congratulated him for having the guts to stand up for what he knew was right in the face of tremendous pressure. Oh well.

Personally I always thought it would have been a much better story if he had flatly refused, and God congratulated him for having the guts to stand up for what he knew was right in the face of tremendous pressure. Oh well.

I think if a God did exist, your account would have been the more fitting one.

I think if a God did exist, your account would have been the more fitting one.
+eleventy billion

I´m sure that parable has a different meaning, but I don´t know what it is thought. Maybe make big sacrifices for what you think is right? I don´t know but I see no point in debating how Christians (even if this is in the Torah) follow this doctrine of a son-killing God; when the point is nowere near that one.

Personally I always thought it would have been a much better story if he had flatly refused, and God congratulated him for having the guts to stand up for what he knew was right in the face of tremendous pressure. Oh well.

After a second thought, it seems in this version, the praised faith of Abraham would still be just as present--perhaps even more admirable--and he would retain his rationality (something God unfortunately did NOT stop him from sacrificing). So once again, you are very right, even on their own terms.

I´m sure that parable has a different meaning, but I don´t know what it is thought. Maybe make big sacrifices for what you think is right? I don´t know but I see no point in debating how Christians (even if this is in the Torah) follow this doctrine of a son-killing God; when the point is nowere near that one.

No the point of the story isn't to directly promote son-killing, but that's precisely the over-point. Christians overlook that and uphold this tale as one of supreme virtue, indeed they are not alone; Abraham is the founding father of all three major monotheistic religions. The fact that they do is telling of their lack of interest of what is rational or logical, and is certainly advocating an unhealthy mindset.

To be fair, many do this without realizing it as they have not given this story proper thought. Often times, they are much more reasonable than their ideologies.

I´m sure that parable has a different meaning, but I don´t know what it is thought.
I think the intended meaning is that you are supposed to have absolute, unquestioning, unhesitating obedience to anything that god tells you, no matter what.

I don´t know but I see no point in debating how Christians (even if this is in the Torah) follow this doctrine of a son-killing God; when the point is nowere near that one.
I don't understand what you mean here.

Well they revere a man who was split-seconds away from killing his OWN son because God told him to, so surely this proposition would be child's play. Excuse the pun.

Exactly why I rejected the fundamentals of christianity at age 7. Straight away after learning the Abraham and Isaac story.

I think the intended meaning is that you are supposed to have absolute, unquestioning, unhesitating obedience to anything that god tells you, no matter what.

I believe that which you said as well, anything God tells you directly, you should do so, who are you to question the highest authority? The question would be: what do you consider to be "God´s words"? I certainly think the Bible is not an absolute truth, not at all; not even to be considered "God´s words".

God´s words is that which you feel is right for others, without any selfish purposes.

Hmm...I was really hoping that some christians would answer. Anyone out there?

Personally I always thought it would have been a much better story if he had flatly refused, and God congratulated him for having the guts to stand up for what he knew was right in the face of tremendous pressure. Oh well.

But that would mean questioning whether God was right. And thats not allowed! God is always right, even if you think he's wrong!

But that would mean questioning whether God was right. And thats not allowed! God is always right, even if you think he's wrong!
That sort of view seems to imply that any act would be morally acceptable if god told you to do it. Are christians really just one divine command away from any horrific atrocity that you could name?

In general, Christians believe that they are supposed to do what God tells them to do. My question for the Christians here: are there any sorts of orders that you would refuse if you thought that they came from God? For example, in the bible God orders his followers to slaughter babies (and they do it). If God gave you that sort of order today, would you follow it? Or would you refuse God’s command, and tell him that you thought killing babies was simply wrong and that you weren’t going to do it?

Interesting Question.

If i truly believed that God was calling upon me to do something i would not refuse to do it. I may fail to do it but i would not refuse to do it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The understanding would be that god knows better than a man what is necessary.
So, if God told me personally (how that would actually happen is beyond me) to do something I would do it. The problem with this question - if I heard a voice, that said it was God, telling me to kill someone or some other obviously unchristian thing, I would assume it was a hallucination or some demon or crazy shit like that, and I wouldn't do it.
And you would have to be a complete idiot to use some voice in your head as a reason to do something which all the teachings of christianity prohibit.

Abraham had no religion to follow, only a personal relationship with God (supposedly), so how he applies to christianity is quite cloudy. The basic idea of that story is (basically)- "do you trust God with your life?" And, although it may have been a terrible stress to put Abraham under, the son was never in danger. There was an animal that was supposed to be sacrificed instead.

The understanding would be that god knows better than a man what is necessary.
So, if God told me personally (how that would actually happen is beyond me) to do something I would do it. The problem with this question - if I heard a voice, that said it was God, telling me to kill someone or some other obviously unchristian thing, I would assume it was a hallucination or some demon or crazy shit like that, and I wouldn't do it.
And you would have to be a complete idiot to use some voice in your head as a reason to do something which all the teachings of christianity prohibit.

Abraham had no religion to follow, only a personal relationship with God (supposedly), so how he applies to christianity is quite cloudy. The basic idea of that story is (basically)- "do you trust God with your life?" And, although it may have been a terrible stress to put Abraham under, the son was never in danger. There was an animal that was supposed to be sacrificed instead.

But theists say that they talk to God all the time.. They also claim they can 'feel' God.
What if you hear God say this to you and you feel it really is God saying it. Or better yet, what if God proves to you in some way that it really is him ?Would you then carry out the task given to you by God ?

But theists say that they talk to God all the time.. They also claim they can 'feel' God.
What if you hear God say this to you and you feel it really is God saying it. Or better yet, what if God proves to you in some way that it really is him ?Would you then carry out the task given to you by God ?
If God proves in a sensible way, i.e. does something that only God could do to show that the message is his, and there is no possibility of coincidental occurrence creating an illusion of his presence, then I would have a long heart to heart talk, and after that I would imagine I would do whatever God said, as long as God would give me some reasonable explanation for it, even if it went against my previous understanding of God's desires or moralities. Actually, I honestly would probably just doubt my sanity and go to a psychiatrist if that happened, because it seems so far from likely.

Being a lunatic or idiot "for God", and doing something crazy or stupid, is fine - just as long as it falls within the acceptable range of human behaviors. Stand on the street corner and yell if you want, and say "God told me to", it is none of my business - but don't kill someone and then say "God told me to," or you are just insane in my opinion.

Also, people feel things that are real and they also feel things that are false - when these things have practical value we call them good, and when they are destructive we call them neuroses. Sometimes the true and false are hard to discern, but value is usually measurable by people that still have their wits about them and aren't being whipped into a frenzy by fear or passion.

mHmm yeah i guess were are both atheists.. :shrug:

mHmm yeah i guess were are both atheists.. :shrug:
so wrong.

I was just reminded tonight of the two stereotypes in Thomas Mann's "the magic mountain". One, a rabid secularist; the other, an unthinking spirtualizer - neither make any sense because they are stereotypes of themselves. Just like most fundamentalists, atheist or theist. Irrational thiests and lawless atheists aren't the only possibilities.

Just because I look at history, my experience, and the experience of others, and doubt God does much audible speaking, it just makes me rational, not an atheist.

so wrong.

I was just reminded tonight of the two stereotypes in Thomas Mann's "the magic mountain". One, a rabid secularist; the other, an unthinking spirtualizer - neither make any sense because they are stereotypes of themselves. Just like most fundamentalists, atheist or theist. Irrational thiests and lawless atheists aren't the only possibilities.

Just because I look at history, my experience, and the experience of others, and doubt God does much audible speaking, it just makes me rational, not an atheist.

I appreciate your attitude. I actually agree with you on a lot of things. And, if i read you correctly, i dont have to apologize for calling you an atheist. :)

Well they revere a man who was split-seconds away from killing his OWN son because God told him to, so surely this proposition would be child's play. Excuse the pun.


Hmmm...? Lets see now...

God tells man, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and then He tells Abraham, Thou Shalt Kill! And He even rewards him for being willing to break the command of God, sin, and kill his own son.

I don't see any problem here do you?

Hmmm...? Lets see now...

God tells man, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and then He tells Abraham, Thou Shalt Kill! And He even rewards him for being willing to break the command of God, sin, and kill his own son.

I don't see any problem here do you?

Yes. Firstly, that God has ordered the killings of many that weren't so fortunate as Issac, and secondly, that Abraham was willing to kill his own son just because he had convinced himself God was speaking to him. Faith? Hardly. Insanity is a more fitting word for this.

It is MY understanding that the bible is full of metaphors. Maybe you guys are not ready for it, i am not putting you down. I have put off reading it until i gather as much info as i can.

God tells man, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and then He tells Abraham, Thou Shalt Kill! And He even rewards him for being willing to break the command of God, sin, and kill his own son.

Great. I just had to stick my nose into this topic. Now I need to go look something up, so y'all get to come along with me.

Okay, the answer is that the tale of Abraham's sacrifice comes in Genesis 22. The Ten Commandments are not issued until later in the story (Exodus 20). At the time of Abraham's sacrifice, the only binding covenant was between Abraham and God (Genesis 15-17). In short, the Commandments were not yet revealed to the people.

In general, Christians believe that they are supposed to do what God tells them to do. My question for the Christians here: are there any sorts of orders that you would refuse if you thought that they came from God?

would i break the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?


doesnt the bible say something about people passing their babies through the fire for God and God says the idea never entered his mind.

maybe when God ordered abraham to offer up his son as an offering he meant that his son should become a priest.

Great. I just had to stick my nose into this topic. Now I need to go look something up, so y'all get to come along with me.

Okay, the answer is that the tale of Abraham's sacrifice comes in Genesis 22. The Ten Commandments are not issued until later in the story (Exodus 20). At the time of Abraham's sacrifice, the only binding covenant was between Abraham and God (Genesis 15-17). In short, the Commandments were not yet revealed to the people.


Thank you for the correction Tiassa! I was wrong!

Abraham still must have known that it was evil to kill his own innocent son because of how God treated Cain when he killed Abel. Killing was declared to be "evil" and "wicked" and a sin by God then, long before the Ten Commandments were ever given to man.

Abraham was rewarded for his willingness to perform a sin at the command of God.

There is still a problem here in my view. :bugeye:

Thanks!

Thank you for the correction Tiassa! I was wrong!

Abraham still must have known that it was evil to kill his own innocent son because of how God treated Cain when he killed Abel.

There is no indication that Abraham knew anything about Cain or Abel...However, it is clear that Abraham came to know/understand/believe God is just--"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"--therefore neither God's command nor his obedience to the command would be evil. Any gaps of understanding within the mind, any misgivings within his heart (concerning Isaac) were bridged by subordinating all to faith/trust in the character of God. Furthermore, it is revealed that when By faith Abraham...offered up Isaac...Abraham believed that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again.

I appreciate your attitude. I actually agree with you on a lot of things. And, if i read you correctly, i dont have to apologize for calling you an atheist. :)
No, don't apologize. I am not an atheist, but atheists that think and ask questions about their beliefs about the universe are probably closer to my mindset than fundie theists.
At least we can agree to let each other think what we want - in peace.

Furthermore, it is revealed that when By faith Abraham...offered up Isaac...Abraham believed that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again.
I can't remember why this concept is familiar, , but i seem to remember it. Please tell us all where that is revealed.

Furthermore, it is revealed that when By faith Abraham...offered up Isaac...Abraham believed that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again.
Where is that "revealed"? I don't see anything like that in the story.

Where is that "revealed"? I don't see anything like that in the story.


That thought was added centuries later by the author of the Book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 11

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

There is no indication that Abraham knew anything about Cain or Abel...However, it is clear that Abraham came to know/understand/believe God is just--"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"--therefore neither God's command nor his obedience to the command would be evil. Any gaps of understanding within the mind, any misgivings within his heart (concerning Isaac) were bridged by subordinating all to faith/trust in the character of God. Furthermore, it is revealed that when By faith Abraham...offered up Isaac...Abraham believed that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again.


This is a very dangerous place to be my friend. It is a place where any evil can be justified in the name of God.

This is a very dangerous place to be my friend.

I don't think so.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind...the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus...

Those who live in the shelter of the Most High will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty. This I declare of the LORD: He alone is my refuge, my place of safety; he is my God, and I am trusting him. For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from the fatal plague. He will shield you with his wings. He will shelter you with his feathers. His faithful promises are your armor and protection. Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor fear the dangers of the day, nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.

But you will see it with your eyes; you will see how the wicked are punished.

Conversely, in the midst of their public humiliation, these same wicked will see the glorification of the Righteous...I guess the wailing and gnashing of teeth engaged in at that time by these unfortunates will be completely understandable... :shrug:

maybe when God ordered abraham to offer up his son as an offering he meant that his son should become a priest.
*************
M*W: No, that's not what it means. Abraham was a metaphor for the Sign of Aries. Isaac was the name for the lamb of sacrifice of the Sign of Aries. Abraham, if he lived, was a pantheist as was his father Haran who lived around 3000 BCE. Sarah was another name for "princess." In this story, Sarai was the daughter of Pharaoh and Avram was the son of Pharaoh. You do the math. They were not Israelis. They were not even Canaanites. They were Egyptian.

I don't think Abraham was a living human being. He represents the Sign of Aries who sacrificed the paschal lamb for atonement of sins.

These ancients who may have names and places didn't exist. They are simply metaphors. There is nothing more than astro-theology to explain their existence.

No gods, no heros, no mythical creations.

I don't think so.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind...the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus...

Those who live in the shelter of the Most High will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty. This I declare of the LORD: He alone is my refuge, my place of safety; he is my God, and I am trusting him. For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from the fatal plague. He will shield you with his wings. He will shelter you with his feathers. His faithful promises are your armor and protection. Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor fear the dangers of the day, nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.

But you will see it with your eyes; you will see how the wicked are punished.

Conversely, in the midst of their public humiliation, these same wicked will see the glorification of the Righteous...I guess the wailing and gnashing of teeth engaged in at that time by these unfortunates will be completely understandable... :shrug:


Please tell me that you are not actually looking forward to personally watching the suffering of countless billions, even your unsaved friends and relatives, Photizo! You cannot be so cold blooded that you would actually enjoy the reality of such a scene, can you? Please tell me that you are not cold and hard to the sufferings of others like David, the author of Psalms was! David killed many thousands himself.

Photizo, according to your own faith, if God ever told you personally to kill your own children, or kill and rape the woman down the street, you would have to do it. What if it was your own personal test of faith from God? You would have to do it no matter how evil it looked, right?

Is this true or is this false?

Please tell me that you are not actually looking forward to personally watching the suffering of countless billions, even your unsaved friends and relatives, Photizo!
That would be a terrible punishment in itself for anyone but a psychotic.

Please tell me that you are not actually looking forward to personally watching the suffering of countless billions, even your unsaved friends and relatives, Photizo!

I'm looking forward to the Exultation, Vindication, and Glorification of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Photizo, according to your own faith, if God ever told you personally to kill your own children, or kill and rape the woman down the street, you would have to do it. What if it was your own personal test of faith from God? You would have to do it no matter how evil it looked, right?

Is this true or is this false?

False--according to my faith.

False--according to my faith.


Then what would stop you from obeying God's command to kill and to rape? On what basis would you be able to make a truly moral, good, and righteous decision. Do you then know more than God?

If you don't do it you are disobeying the direct order of God. If you do as He commands, you will not only betray the ones you love, but destroy your own character as well in the process.

Who will you love more, God or men?

Then what would stop you from obeying God's command to kill and to rape?

The same thing that stops me from obeying his other commands.

The same thing that stops me from obeying his other commands.


Exodus 32:26-29
26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."


Photizo, you do not yet seem to understand that, according to the Bible, God always rewards those who are willing to do His killing for Him. Just like with Abraham, it proves your faithfulness to Him. In the passage above, this is even more true if you are willing to kill those whom you know and love. It sets you "apart" even more as being faithful to Him.

Again, why would you not want to prove the genuineness of your faith to God when He gives you the opportunity?


Here it is again in another passage!

Deuteronomy 13:6-9
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

What would stop you? Something would, Right? What is it?

Is it just possible that you might be too good and too moral yourself to do any of these things?

That is my hope, anyway.