I have a bit of a problem with what I'm seeing at the peace rally. I visisted Toronto's on Saturday and have seen clips of New Yorks (as well as, obviously, all the others) where something disturbs me. There was a large number of people with anti-Israeli signs at the rallies. A number of people flying their Palestinian flags. A few small groups chanting about Israel. Why? Why do this? These people disgusted me. They used one of the most widely supported anti-war movements in history to try and further their own political beliefs on a different topic. In fact, Toronto's rally was suppose to have a few rabbi's attend and speak who declined at the last minute because of the anti-Israeli protestors yelling.
i know what you mean i was discused at the use of the melborun rally to poss out anti tony abott stuff (the minister for business or something and yes i dont like what hes doing but time and place) and the protester who was complaining about australia's "invasion of indoneasias sovignty" cause we have troops in the inderpendant nation of temor to stop the apalling masicure that was occuring
Tyler, since you find criticism of Israel inappropriate in this context: Do you believe Israel's policies and alliance with the US are not a factor in the coming war? Do you believe peace is possible in the Middle East, or more specifically that the US can "install" viable democracy in Iraq, without a change in American-Israeli policies? If the proponents of American hegemony do not take up this issue, their enemies will (and they are). This is central to "hearts and minds" of all Arabs.
The occupation of Palestine and the upcoming war on Iraq are very related. I think its great that palestine activists used these oppurtunities to get people involved in their movement. At rallys like these there are always a wide array of speakers, ranging from maoist revolutionarys to clergy to politicians and actors. None of these people agree on everything, and some of them disagree strongly about most things, but they speak at these rallies because they feel the stated purpose of the rally is good. If some rabbis cancelled because they didn't like a few of the protesters then good riddance, I'm sure more enlightened rabbis could be found.
i have to say hes right altho it backfired on crean he tried to push for war WITH UN concent and it bluew up in his face and the protesters turned on HIM in Melborune we had: not sure who the first speaker was, natasha stockdispoia, a labor MP from an electrate with surposedly the highest group of muslams in australia, and then BOB BROWNPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! the after we got to fed square they had the head of the builders union, a kurdish year 11?, and then the lead singer of midnight oil turned presidant of the conservation foundation the union adress i found inapropriate because it pushed the unions to much (even tho i AM a union surporter) but the rest of the speaches were very moving, especially browns and the lead of midnight oil's and DEFINITLY the little girls
The Palestinian protestors joined a larger rally because if they threw their own there would be no one there but a few Palestinians and zero news coverage. It's normal to get smaller groups joining in a larger cause to try and get some recognition that normally would be hard to come by.
"Do you believe Israel's policies and alliance with the US are not a factor in the coming war?" Not a major one, no. As in, I don't believe it is the push for war. An Israeli Defence official said the other day on CNN that the U.S. should push for a second UN resolution, in fact. "Do you believe peace is possible in the Middle East" No. At the moment Arafat and the militant Palestinians (as well as the PLO in general) have shown no desire to take away the demand for 3 million Palestinian refugees to be let into Israel. Israel will not accept this (as it would lead to the end of Israel). The last peace talks also broke over East Jerusalem, which Israel was willing to make into shared-ownership but Arafat was not. "more specifically that the US can "install" viable democracy in Iraq, without a change in American-Israeli policies?" I've not thought about the effect an installed democracy would have on Israeli relations, to be honest. I suppose something of an American-puppet government would be the initial power in Iraqi democracy after the war, but I highly doubt any Iraqi government will be too pro-Israel. jps: "The occupation of Palestine and the upcoming war on Iraq are very related" Okay.... So? I was walking in a peace march (actually, I was observing more than anything) and I refused to march next to folk waving their Palestinian flag and their signs with "ISRAELI MURDERERS" held high. Why? Because it gives off the illusion that I somehow agree with them. It also is forcing a link. What this anti-Israeli shouting is doing at the anti-warwithIraq rally is making it appear like the same people who are against the war with Iraq are against Israel. This is simply not true. "If some rabbis cancelled because they didn't like a few of the protesters then good riddance, I'm sure more enlightened rabbis could be found." The difference between having people who disagree on a side topic and what I'm talking about is massive. You have people waving a sign with a picture of a solidier and the word MURDERER on top of it and as an Israeli you don't exactly feel like giving a lecture to these folk. Adam: "Why turn up with anti-Israel/pro-Palestine banners? Perhaps because it is all connected." So? The war with Iraq and the issue in Israel are connected - fine. But everyone who's against the war is not against Israel. It was an attempt to further their own political belief that had nothing to do with why a million other people were marching. They were using the rally to further their own political agenda. Coldrake: "The Palestinian protestors joined a larger rally because if they threw their own there would be no one there but a few Palestinians and zero news coverage" That's about the most factually wrong thing I've read in a while. There have been anti-Israel protests. When Israeli's come to speak at Universities they always have a massive protest at the University (not just students). In Montreal and Toronto the protests got violent to the point where the speaker almost could not attend. And it got loads upon loads of news coverage. "It's normal to get smaller groups joining in a larger cause to try and get some recognition that normally would be hard to come by." Um, have you been living in a cave for the last 10 years? The Palestinian 'cause' has not exactly had it's news be 'hard to come by'!!!
Tyler: What is Saddam's biggest (and believe me, I hate that bastard soiling it) rallying cry, besides saving his own worthless skin? And what was Osama's biggest (ditto) rallying cry, besides getting US troops out of Arabia? What would you wildly guess that an American occupation of Iraq will be compared to by Arabs inciting change? How will you ever find an end to "terrorism" in Israel while the W.bank and Gaza are vast camps under lockdown and periodic reprisal raids? If an American war of occupation goes badly and America recoils, what do you expect the impact will be on American military aid to Israel? Please understand, I ask because I prefer that Israel evolve into a just and lasting entity, rather than giant repeat of Masada.
"What is Saddam's biggest (and believe me, I hate that bastard soiling it) rallying cry, besides saving his own worthless skin?" To his own people? I'm sorry, I don't quite get the question. "What would you wildly guess that an American occupation of Iraq will be compared to by Arabs inciting change?" If it is compared to Israel it would be incorrectly so. It would be like comparing Hitler's occupation of Czechloslovakia to Israel - you just can't compare the two. "If an American war of occupation goes badly and America recoils, what do you expect the impact will be on American military aid to Israel?" I expect there would be little impact, to be honest. I don't feel a war in Iraq will fail. If it goes poorly as in many, many deaths and chemical warfare and such it all depends on who the blame is largely seen on. If Saddam uses chemicals I doubt support to Israel would drift.
Coldrake, Do you recall last year a huge pro-Israel rally in DC which recieved a great deal of media coverage? A month later there was a pro-Palestine rally which was twice the size of it. Tyler, Everyone I know who is against the war with Iraq are also against the occupation of Palestine, but I'm sure you're right, its not generally true. As I said though, there are always people at these rallies with radically different views carrying signs advocating all kinds of things. There are radical communist groups that want to overthrow the government, there are democrat politicians who just don't think we should attack Iraq without a UN resolution. These people disagree on a lot more than "side topics" but they understand that the rally will include everyone who wants to march against the war. If everyone who marched was required to have signs that said the same thing then a lot more people would refuse to march than those who don't like the idea of marching with anyone who has different views from theirs.
Tyler, you forgot to cogitate on the Osama question (that's OK, if there's nothing more you can think of). "If it is compared to Israel it would be incorrectly so. It would be like comparing Hitler's occupation of Czechloslovakia to Israel - you just can't compare the two." You are so right. Hitler's occupation was far less bloody, and the rest of the world rolled it back. (edit) well, when I think of Terezin, I can't stand by my statement above. I was wrongly thinking from the perspective of non-Jewish Czechs (I lived there and my own bias emerged). FOUL! Tyler gets a penalty shotPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"As I said though, there are always people at these rallies with radically different views carrying signs advocating all kinds of things. There are radical communist groups that want to overthrow the government, there are democrat politicians who just don't think we should attack Iraq without a UN resolution" And I disagree with that. As I've said, it's an attempt to further one's own political agenda on the tails of another view. Let's face it, the vast majority of people are grossly uniformed about issues (especially Israel - we see this all the time in the praising of Arafat - a man who has launched war against a nation that housed him and when offered co-leadership of the nation he apparently wanted leadership of, denied it - and the yelling of SHARON MURDERER!). If you have these folk at the peace rally and they see others chanting anti-Israel it's very believable that they would link their own peace-views with pro-Palestine views and thus become pro-Palestinian based on, well, absolutely nothing (this of course holds with other, non-Israeli examples). Belief by association. hypewaders;l "well, when I think of Terezin, I can't stand by my statement above. I was wrongly thinking from the perspective of non-Jewish Czechs" Ha, I was about to write a quite angered response before I read this! Anyway, now I'm curious. When and where in the Czech did you live?
I worked in Otrokovice near Zlin, in '97-98 and have relatives living in Bohemia, I go there at least annually. Yes, that was quite a gaffe- I had to leave it there out of shame. The only solution in the Middle East will require everyone concerned to carefully cut out a lot of demagoguery.
If people who were not opposed to the war were showing up to advocate their causes then I'd agree, but the fact is these people recognize that these issues are closely related and participate to show that those who oppose Israel's occupation of Palestine also oppose the war on Iraq. People aren't going to become pro-Palestine simply because they see a sign at a rally, however it might catch their interest and cause them to talk to the people with the signs or research the matter on their own, and this would lead them to support the cause.
"participate to show that those who oppose Israel's occupation of Palestine also oppose the war on Iraq." But that's just it, this is not true. It is a misrepresentaiton. As I said, I refused to walk in the part of the peace rally where the anti-Israeli folk were. Do you have any proof that everyone who's anti-war with Iraq is pro-Palestine?
Alright, not everyone, but the vast majority. By marching they are showing that their particular group of Palestine activists, ie. Al-Awda, JATO, DAP, or what have you, are against the war.
