I was discussing with my friend the other day whether or not God exists (she is a Muslim). The crux of her argument seemed to be 'If God doesn't exist what is the point of your life'. Now I don’t believe that life has to have a meaning or higher purpose, but she was adamant. I couldn't get out of her what this 'point' was, but apparently it is important. Anyone able is shed some light?

(I'm not asking what the meaning of life is- that would be stupid, complicated and vary from person to person- just what is it that Islam, or indeed any other religion believe/teach)

I always think that if all animals are equal then you should look at the animal that is furthest away from what you believe you are. So an ant for example. What is the purpose of an ant for us as humans, for the universe, or for a higher being. Do you think they have a god, or just someone in charge. Is their life purpose to survive, or to have fun. Who do they answer to? A God? The "king or queen" ant? For them, is there a purpose to life apart from to live it?

By asking myself questions about an animal like this, I can better understand the purpose of my life. I always consider the ant, and why they are in the world, before I consider myself, and why I am in the world.

I love all this shit. I could go on all day.

The Sox

I always think that if all animals are equal then you should look at the animal that is furthest away from what you believe you are. So an ant for example. What is the purpose of an ant for us as humans, for the universe, or for a higher being. Do you think they have a god, or just someone in charge. Is their life purpose to survive, or to have fun. Who do they answer to? A God? The "king or queen" ant? For them, is there a purpose to life apart from to live it?

By asking myself questions about an animal like this, I can better understand the purpose of my life. I always consider the ant, and why they are in the world, before I consider myself, and why I am in the world.

I love all this shit. I could go on all day.

The Sox

You missed out on the Sixties - Far out man....... :D

Just because man lacks meaning to his existence does not mean that man can generate any fairy tale that fills that void. Religion dogma falls apart under logical srutiny. There are mysteries to life that man may one day find the answers or he may not.

I take the stance of an agnostic who believes the jury is still out on the meaning of not just our existence but the existence of the entire universe. Yes the search for meaning goes on for me but I'm not willing to settle for some ancient idiotic dogma just so I can feel good.

The existentialists go a step further by stating there's no meaning to life, one can only find meaning in his daily endeavours and assume personal responsibilty for acts of free will in the absence of absolutely knowing what's right or wrong.

To "believe" in something isn't wrong because it helps people get through life. What happens many times though is that the people who are very religious want everyone to believe in their way or else if you don't your not worthy of their friendship or even worse. I accept people for WHO they are not what they believe in. I try to avoid religious debates but hold my own when having to do so, I don't believe in God but do believe in myself.

Even if there was some answer to that question, it would still lead to another question. If the purpose of life was, for example, a journey to a non-material spirit realm like heaven, where everyone could live in happiness without death, then what is the purpose of that? What is the purpose of eternal happiness? I think the answer is evident, any purpose of life would justify itself. In other words, once found, the purpose would render the question irrelevant.

Perhaps the question of a purpose is only generated by the present structure of society. We have a pathological need for closure, as evidenced by apocalyptic myths. We have an intuition that history is leading to something, but conversly, Hindus stress that existence is cyclical and eternal. With such a worldview, the idea of a climactic purpose is silly and destructive. Could the purpose of life in general be different that the purpose of an individual life? What is the purpose of a cell compared to the purposes of the body? What are the purposes of the body compared to those of society?, the Earth, the galaxy?

It seems to me that the history of the universe shows a trend. From a very, very hot and simple state to an ever cooler and more complex state. Indeed this trend does seem to be speeding up. As the most complex life forms yet occuring, as measured by density of connectiveness in the cerebral cortex, humans are at the leading edge of this process. In physics, there is the principle of phase shifts. It may take a very long time for water to cool down, but once it hits the right temperature, ice can form almost instantly. I think such a thing is taking place, and the field is conciousness, or information. Never before have so many minds been connected by the internet. Never before has information been so rapidly accessable or rapidly processed. What will crystallize out of this is anybody's guess, but something novel is happening, don't take things for granted, just because everyone is pretending that its business as usual.

I was discussing with my friend the other day whether or not God exists (she is a Muslim). The crux of her argument seemed to be 'If God doesn't exist what is the point of your life'. Now I don’t believe that life has to have a meaning or higher purpose, but she was adamant. I couldn't get out of her what this 'point' was, but apparently it is important. Anyone able is shed some light?

(I'm not asking what the meaning of life is- that would be stupid, complicated and vary from person to person- just what is it that Islam, or indeed any other religion believe/teach)

You'e friend is right, believing in a God and an afterlife, does create purpose, however, purpose can also be created by other beliefs and motivations. This purpose is only subjective, and something you fabricate. So Next time, tell your friend, just like he/she chooses to believe in God to create purpose, you believe in life, and life, is your purpose.

Objectively however, you're both wrong, it's completely meaningless.

Pehaps we are the purpose, blessed with complete freedom to engineer our own destiny. But how many people even live freely?

I was discussing with my friend the other day whether or not God exists (she is a Muslim). The crux of her argument seemed to be 'If God doesn't exist what is the point of your life'.
point or purpose of life is obviously survival
even if gods existed it would still be the same.

Free will, is a really frail argument. Like any physical or non physical system in this universe, we are too governed by laws - the physical laws of the universe, the physical laws of our environment, the laws of evolution, the laws of society, the law of order, the laws of morals and ethics, the laws of our biology. There is no window open for free will.

In fact, I even argue, are our actions predetermined , like left-handed amino acids being selected by unblind chance, so that a desired result is produced, such as the next stage of evolution, the super intelligent social organism, or even the cybernetic organism.

We could just be cells, aggregating, so the next aggregate object appears.

Free will, is a really frail argument. Like any physical or non physical system in this universe, we are too governed by laws - the physical laws of the universe, the physical laws of our environment, the laws of evolution, the laws of society, the law of order, the laws of morals and ethics, the laws of our biology. There is no window open for free will.

In fact, I even argue, are our actions predetermined , like left-handed amino acids being selected by unblind chance, so that a desired result is produced, such as the next stage of evolution, the super intelligent social organism, or even the cybernetic organism.

We could just be cells, aggregating, so the next aggregate object appears.

You had the choise of posting the above or am I mistaken?

That's really trivial, Greco. My "choice", is modelled by the criteria of this topic, my social and intellectual conditioning, and my biological functioning at the time, amongst other things. I urge you to see the bigger picture. Subjectively, at face-value, we can accept everything: existence, good and evil, free will, purpose of life, God. Objectively, none of these abstractions matter.

We have free will in the way that we can reflect on the consequences of our actions and in doing so alter what we would otherwise have done. If we had a 'purpose', then we could not be free. The reason why having no meaning in life or higher purpose is so pleasurable is that we get to make it up ourselves. I would hate to be told by some creator that although I can comprehend other ways of living, I am required to do nothing in my life than, say, herd sheep. Purpose is enslavement.

I was discussing with my friend the other day whether or not God exists (she is a Muslim). The crux of her argument seemed to be 'If God doesn't exist what is the point of your life'. Now I don’t believe that life has to have a meaning or higher purpose, but she was adamant.
I am curious if you asked (and what she answered)...
What is the point or purpose of her life?

If the purpose of her life directly relies upon a deity, that no one can be certain actually exists, then I would argue her life is pointless, but that would likely fall on deaf ears.

Is it to serve God? If God is omnipotent, he does not need servants.
Is it to obey God? That is not a purpose, it is simply rules to follow that "allow" you to not have to think for yourself and figure out what the point of life is.
Is it to praise God? What would a being such as God want or need with throngs of mindless obsessed fans here on Earth who praise him blindly?

How does God give her life a purpose?

Purpose is enslavement.

I don't think I can accept that life with a purpose is inherently enslaving.
I think it would all really depend on what specifically the purpose is.

It's fine if you have a choice to avoid or rebel from the initial purpose (like breeding!), but its sad if you need some life goal appointed by someone else to feel good. There are so many options out there, and the more, the merrier!

My 'goal' for humanity right now is to get as far as we can technologically - I want to see future generations colonising space and understanding to the full our own potential, and realising it.

My 'goal' for humanity right now is to get as far as we can technologically - I want to see future generations colonising space and understanding to the full our own potential, and realising it.
Funny.
My outlook couldn't be more opposing.
My 'goal' is exactly the opposite. :D

But Star Wars is so cool... :D

understanding to the full our own potential, and realising it
I don't think you disagree with this part OR, just the rest.
I could be wrong ofcourse:D

I don't think you disagree with this part OR, just the rest.
I could be wrong ofcourse:D
Good Point, Dr Lou.

Thank you.

"Purpose" is, ironically enough, just being who we really are.

Let me explain: you build a toaster. You call it "toaster" with the idea that when you put a slice of bread into the mechanism, it will produce toast.

But instead it produces coal. Not because it can't produce toast, or because producing toast is so much more difficult or further up the evolutionary ladder for toasters, but because it simply takes the process too far. You've built it with all the faculties necessary to sense when to stop, but it doesn't - it thinks "faster, harder, further" is its purpose; so you end up with coal and it ends up with fried circuits.

It's purpose is to function optimally - to produce the best toast you could wish for. The toaster might strive to understand the properties of different kinds of bread, the thermodynamic laws which govern its existence, and reach perfection in all other areas of its existence. But as far as you are concerned, it has failed its purpose. Not because you want to limit it, or deny its freedom, or you have something against bread in particular... just because its purpose includes all those things as long as they come down to producing toast.

"Purpose" is, ironically enough, just being who we really are.

Let me explain: you build a toaster. You call it "toaster" with the idea that when you put a slice of bread into the mechanism, it will produce toast.[/i].


...So one day god was looking at all of the hand-rolled lines of play-do and thought, "Hey, this thing could wiggle all over the earth on its tummy, tempt Eve, shed its skin periodically and get trampled under some other woman's foot. Yeah! That's its purpose!"

And then this afternoon, at an evolution vs. creation debate:

"...No wait! Toasters could not have evolved by adding piece to piece over time....they're IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX!!!!"

And now for something completely different!

*poof*

Let me explain: you build a toaster. You call it "toaster" with the idea that when you put a slice of bread into the mechanism, it will produce toast.A toaster has no purpose of its own, just ask one. A toaster is merely a tool that is used for the purposes of its creator. It does nothing of its own volition, of its own purpose.

But then let's say we build a super-robotic toaster with legs and arms and a computer 'brain' and we program it to run around looking for pieces of bread and making toast out of them. Still the super-toaster has no purpose of its own; it has no volition, no self-control. It's still nothing but a tool (albeit an automated tool) serving the purpose of its creator.

Finally, we build an intelligent toaster that is capable of making its own choices and we let it go free. We tell it that its purpose is to make toast but strangely this intelligent toaster chooses to move to L.A. and write sitcoms. What is its purpose and should we smash the hell out of it with a baseball bat for not making toast?

~Raithere

The purpose of a toaster is to burn bread no matter where you set the darkness control. End of story.

Unless it is possessed. Does anybody know of any good excorsists that do toasters?

A toaster has no purpose of its own, just ask one. A toaster is merely a tool that is used for the purposes of its creator. It does nothing of its own volition, of its own purpose.
It has the purpose you give it. It embodies that purpose, is able to fulfil it, and able to fail it. The purpose of "toasting" does not lie with General Electric, but with their toasters...

But you can take the analogy too far by equating it with humanity without taking its nature (our volition, as you call it) into account. We have the purpose to love - God, and each other - as well as being a "tool" in God's hands to administer love. We can argue ad infinitum about the specific nature, ingredients and functions of love, but free will is definitely part and parcel to it. If you can't love, God can't use you. But you can love and still come to nothing if you dismiss your creator who didnt't just create a "mindless loving machine", but a rational thinking human being.

Our "purpose" is being true to ourselves, but not outside the boundaries of love.

It has the purpose you give it. It embodies that purpose, is able to fulfil it, and able to fail it. The purpose of "toasting" does not lie with General Electric, but with their toasters...That it was built for a purpose does not mean that is has a purpose of its own. Do you see the difference? This was the point of my intelligent toaster analogy; though we might create something for a purpose, having free-will allows it to select its own purpose.

But you can take the analogy too far by equating it with humanity without taking its nature (our volition, as you call it) into account.That is precisely what I'm doing.

We have the purpose to love - God, and each other - as well as being a "tool" in God's hands to administer love.No, that would be God's purpose for us... but it is quite obvious that not everyone in the world conforms to God's supposed purpose.

But you can love and still come to nothing if you dismiss your creator who didnt't just create a "mindless loving machine", but a rational thinking human being. What do you mean by 'come to nothing'?

~Raithere

What do you mean by 'come to nothing'?
Not reaching the potential that comes with God's purpose, which is to live eternally in His presence. A purpose must have a fulfilment, and the fulfilment of God's purpose with us came through the example of Christ. To make God's purpose our purpose is to realize our potential - and to accept his gift of life.

However, as you say:
That it was built for a purpose does not mean that is has a purpose of its own. Do you see the difference? This was the point of my intelligent toaster analogy; though we might create something for a purpose, having free-will allows it to select its own purpose.
We can choose a different purpose for ourselves, obviously. But without knowing God's purpose for you (or knowing that He has a purpose for you), you have no "other" purpose except the ones you manage to give yourself. Nothing wrong with that of course, except we don't have an example of it - we don't have a model. That's blind purpose; a life in search of meaning. Eventually most people can come to no other conclusion than that we don't have a purpose.

Because how can you find out what you're supposed to be doing, if it only depends on what you decide you should be doing?

There's a purpose to "purpose" - it infuses meaning. Someone who has a purpose will feel his life has meaning. But if you don't accept the meaning God gave you, such meaning depends entirely on your own efforts. If you don't feel your life has meaning, it won't - which again is the natural conclusion many people come to.

*drunkenly* you orlsss suck! youse do! gooo ta hell wit chaaaaa! *passes out*

Not reaching the potential that comes with God's purpose, which is to live eternally in His presence. A purpose must have a fulfilment, and the fulfilment of God's purpose with us came through the example of Christ. I'm unconcerned with God's purpose. Unless he deigns to come down personally and discuss it with me I really don't care. Frankly, I take umbrage with his presumption.

To make God's purpose our purpose is to realize our potential - and to accept his gift of life.If it's truly a gift, isn't it mine to do with as I please? Why then the conditions?

Nothing wrong with that of course, except we don't have an example of it - we don't have a model. That's blind purpose; a life in search of meaning.I disagree. It is the rational ones who discover purpose through their own volition whose eyes are open. Whether they accept the directives of God as proclaimed by religion or not is incidental. It is the unthinking, those who blindly accept the purpose that authority hands them who are blind. Herein lays the chief evil of institutionalized religion; that one would give away their own purpose and discretion to that of another. It is, of course, not religion but politics.

Eventually most people can come to no other conclusion than that we don't have a purpose.I would hardly say 'most'. People that can find no purpose typically kill themselves in one way or another. Most people find many different purposes in life, including theists, few of whom live solely for their God alone.

Because how can you find out what you're supposed to be doing, if it only depends on what you decide you should be doing?When did 'supposed to' enter into it? Where does the imperative come from? My answer is that you're not 'supposed to' do anything in particular. That's the whole challenge of life; to define who you are and what, if any, your purpose is.

There's a purpose to "purpose" - it infuses meaning. Someone who has a purpose will feel his life has meaning. But if you don't accept the meaning God gave you, such meaning depends entirely on your own efforts. If you don't feel your life has meaning, it won't - which again is the natural conclusion many people come to.Purpose is meaning and I would rather find my own than spend my life serving another's. It is the latter that seems empty and hollow to me; unable to find or create meaning in ones own life and thus seeking it elsewhere. Instead I would make use of the faculties that I have and develop my own purpose in accordance with my values and the world around me. This is to me what it means to be alive, conscious, and possess free will.

~Raithere

You're being unnecessarily simplistic about this. Finding your purpose in God doesn't exclude any purpose you can find on your own - it includes it, and infuses it with meaning and direction (a "supposed to") there would not otherwise be. Finding purpose without finding God is quite possible, but should logically leave you with an empty feeling of deluding yourself because you already believe deep down it's just a functional illusion designed to compensate for not knowing how or why you're here. It's your god.

I can respect your decision not to subject your will to a God you don't understand. Of course your life is a gift you can apply as you choose. However, your request that He comes down personally has already been granted - and it seems to have made no difference to you. You still prefer to create your own.