Sleep must be very important and vital since it renders most animals that sleep to be unconscious for long periods when they could be subject to danger. Most, if not all, evolutionary processes support and influence survival. Either sleep is a terrible mistake, or a development flaw that had no alternative, or it has a very specific purpose, or maybe a combination.

From my understanding of brain functioning the two primary active processes are electrical activity within the neurons and the chemical transmitters comprising the synapses. During normal daily activity the synapses degrade due to loss of protein. Without frequent regeneration and provision of fresh protein the brain would cease to function.

Research shows that protein in the brain is indeed increased during sleep. I strongly suspect that this is the primary purpose of sleep, although no one seems to know for sure if there are other purposes.

If this primary conclusion is true then I suspect that if uploading takes place with the obvious assumption that organic proteins will clearly not have a role then uploads will never need to sleep.

Cris

If I'm not mistaken, Cris, there were a number of human sleep and dream depravation experiments a while back and to the best of my knowledge the one thing what was certain was: You flip out if deprived of sleep or dreaming for a period of time. As to the purpose of sleep/dreaming, I don't remember any firm conclusions being arrived at.

Also, I don't believe that sleep renders the sleeper unconscious in the sense that the sleeper is totally unaware of sensory inputs - that would be a counter-survival aspect. Hibernation may, but that's a different story as far as I'm concerned.

Chagur,

My reference to unconsciousness was somewhat loose - perhaps a better term would be ' far from being as alert as would be necessary to achieve optimumum avoidance of danger'.

But repair and re-generation of the synapses does occur during sleep. This also explains why you can feel more alert after a good night's sleep and feel pretty lowsy when suffering from a disturbed night.

There is also some evidence that even during real unconsciousness, e.g. incapable of motion and normal awareness, the senses are still active. In other words your brain can still absorb and remember verbal speech made by someone else while you are unconscious.

Cris

Don't forget... If we we're awake twice as long per day we'd have to consume twice as many resources. Although there are people (that are exceedingly rare) who appear not too need sleep at all. Also, it's hypothosized that meditation provides a good alternative to sleep and if proficiently practised cuts down the time a person needs for sleep considerably.

Spirit17,

Good point, but I don't reckon it would be 50% more resources if we were awake all the time. We sleep perhaps a 1/3rd of our time, but we aren't dead we are still consuming energy while we are asleep. So if we were awake we would indeed consume more energy but it wouldn't be a 1/3rd more, I'd say something like 20% (1/5th) more energy intake would be required if we stayed awake all the time.

As for meditation, yes, I've heard that the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the founder of Transcendental Meditation, only needs around 2 hours sleep a day. If he keeps to what he teaches then he should be only spending no more than 2 hours per day in meditation. That means around 4 hours per day of deep restorative rest, or 50% for the avergage adult requirement of 8 hours per day.

But I also remember that Margaret Thatcher, the once Prime Minister of the UK also only slept for around 2 hours per day and then proceeded with very hectic non-stop working days.

Cris

Cris,

Your mentioning our sleeping 1/3 of the day triggered a thought:

Infants sleep maybe 20 hours a day, and not only human infants, so where does the reduction of necessary sleep time as adulthood is attained fit in?

...not to mention that it is supported the older adults on the average need less sleep than younger adults. At what point does this turn around?

Chagur, wet1,

Good points and I think they support my case.

I’m assuming here that the sleep period is used to replace protein that has been used during a waking period. It follows then that a sleep period of a certain length would be required to satisfy say a significant degree of the protein replacement cycle.

The protein usage occurs during normal brain functioning. While neurons are largely electrical in nature the actual connections between neurons are non-electrical. These connections are known as the synapses and it is here that protein is used to transmit signals between neurons. The proteins are consumed in the process.

It is clear that if the synapse proteins are not replaced then after a while the brain will cease to function correctly. It is interesting to note that nearly all hallucinatory drugs affect the synapses. They either suppress them or stimulate them. Either way the synapses do not transmit their signals as intended and the result is abnormal brain behavior. Continued use of such drugs tends to condition the synapses into permanent abnormal behavior.

I suspect that if more synapses are used in a given period than another then more sleep would be required to replace the used proteins. I think I can deduce that if one has an exceptionally busy day (mentally) then one will feel extra tired at night and will sleep longer.

Now consider the case of an infant or human baby: During the early period of life lack of experience means that there are few established neural connections. Most of every waking minute will be causing the establishment of new neural connections and hence the use of increased protein for the synapses. And a great many of the early connections will be trial and error. As the baby flails its limbs and chews on anything it can reach, it is determining which actions are positive and productive and which are painful or do not result in anything useful. These activities cause a great deal of synaptic activity. Hence we can see why a baby will need to sleep for extraordinary periods when compared to adults.

In the elderly, who it seems also, often do not require so much sleep, we see that perhaps they are not using their brains as much as they did, or perhaps they have more well established neural connections and do not create many new connections. But I think the lack of brain activity is the result of lack of stimulation. My watch on the anti-aging scene tells me that if the elderly made the effort to stimulate their brains then they can stay mentally alert and healthy far longer, and they also need correspondingly more sleep than their lazier peers.

Does this make sense?

Cris

Interesting when put in that light. Or prehaps a new prespective.
Please continue Cris.

Cris

I sure hope you're right about the elderly bit even though it means I'll be forever, or whatever, be in debt to you and Dave and all the others who are stirring my old brain.

Truly an interesting hypothesis, Cris..

Especially as regards to the current mainstream treatment of sleeping "disorders" in the elderly.

As an individual ages, several changes in the normal sleep pattern occur. More time is necessary to fall asleep (increased sleep latency). Maintaining sleep continuity is often difficult, as sleep becomes increasingly fragmented. The amount of time spent in deeper levels of sleep is decreased. As a consequence, the elderly appear to be more easily awakened from environmental stimuli and sleep often does not seem as restful.

Circadian rhythms also appear to change. The "internal clock" shifts, so that elderly persons often retire to bed earlier in the evening and awaken earlier in the morning. But when the schedules and time demands of the external world intrude, sleep suffers.

Additionally, an increase in daytime sleepiness and can lead to an increase in napping. This may cause the sleep pattern in the elderly to become polycyclic in nature, such that several sleep-wake cycles occur within a 24-hour period, a pattern that is similar to the normal sleep pattern of infants.

As the elderly do not remain physically or mentally engaged, do their sleep patterns revert to what is "natural?"

From my personal experience in teaching Transcendental Meditation and working with elderly, I have observed that those elderly who are physically and mentally active do have a similar sleep pattern with yonger groups - including dream patterns.

Kmguru,

That certainly does add weight to my hypothesis.

As for TM: I wonder what role, if any that plays in protein replacement. I do know that the electrical activity in the brain increases enormously during meditation and that could almost imply that protein is being used if neurons are firing. But on the other hand one is not generating thoughts during TM, the mental activities are very quiet. Perhaps it is the neurons themselves that are active without transferring signals to other neurons – oh heck I’m guessing now. I haven’t looked at current research on TM for over a decade. I certainly remember that when I did TM too near to bedtime then it was then extremely difficult to get to sleep. That implies that protein has been restored during TM and not consumed.

For the record, I learnt TM in 1977 and became a TM-Sidha in 1987. But I never had a desire to teach. It is very nice to hear from a fellow meditator.

Cris

The simplest analogy as to how TM works is as follows (noting that analogy is not a substitute for specifics):

When you are in TM, your brain is consciously disconnected from the outside stimuli. You are aware of what is going on but you tell your brain not to act on it. Let the thoughts come and subside. Now this state prepares your brain to do housekeeping that you normally should be doing when in sleep. It is like you are defragging your hard drive at lunch break. Now, the brain filed away a lot of information, some are unresolved etc. TM allows you to consciously look at information and reorganize them.

I am simplifying too much here, but consider TM as the modern DSS (Decision Support System) that works on Decision Theory, Automation Theory and Information Science. The reason you need a Guru is that TM does not fill in the gap in your knowledge base (because it is not there), the right Guru does. If the Guru does not know, he or she will recommend someone who does.

As you know, TM does enhance one's intelligence in the sense that you have the right information at the right time to make decisions in your life. That is why a lot of corporate people have learned it queitly. TM allows me to keep up with highly complex global information architecture designs and not to mention those young punks.

Cris

I am glad to learned TM loong time ago. I hope you are staying with it. Like Broccoli, it is good for you....

I am in no way knocking anyones opinions, but making a humorous editorial on sleep.

Sleep has to be the most innocent, unbridle great things that can be done. Just think about it. You can spend eight hours, laying in bed, having dreams that can be weirder than acid trips, and doctors say people are sleep deprived. How could anyone not want to sleep. I'll go as far as saying that there should be a National Sleep Day, where everyone is really quite, we block out the sun for 24 hours, and just sleep. I love to sleep, if I could I'd sleep 25 hrs in a day, (I'm still trying to figure out how to squeeze an extra hour out of the day).

Sleep is the greatest ending to practically everything.
Concerts
Road Trips
Getting Drunk
Sex
Spending three days straight on Scifourms
(I wouldn't have anything to know about that. :D )
Wedding
Wedding receptions (Actually I'd like to sleep during them)
Surgery

NOW, go watch the game....Let me start the bear and dragon....

I once knew a fellow with sleep apinea (?). That fellow scared me. Not that he was doing anything, quite the opposite. He would go to sleep while in a conversation. He rode home with a coworker, who let him drive. He fell asleep at the wheel and ran off the road. Almost had a wreck! What bothered me was sometimes he ran heavy equiptment. Anyone have any insight on the causes? I know the effects.

How would this affect an upload? Would this possibly not be a canidate for such?

That reminds an elderly gentleman who worked with me several years ago. We were travelling from Cleveland to Toronto on the plane. He fell asleep like a switch when we were taking off from ground. Upon arrival, he insisted to rent the car and drive. He will dose off while driving. I had to shout like "So, where are we staying?" etc to make sure he does not have a wreck with me in it.

I have a feeling, this is the result of oxygen deprivation to the brain. Not enough to cause damage but enough to create unconsciousness for a short time. This gentleman was big in size and being on the road all the time ate high cholesterol food caused his arteries to clogg up (he had an angioplasty).

Originally posted by Cris
For the record, I learnt TM in 1977 and became a TM-Sidha in 1987.For a guy who otherwise prefers to create an impression of scientific rigor, this TM thing seems out of character.

Based on what kmguru says (The reason you need a Guru is that TM does not fill in the gap in your knowledge base (because it is not there), the right Guru does.), it appears that you don't do as much of your own thinking as you would have us believe.

Out of the opinions you express, how many are actually yours, and how many are your Guru's?

Keep in mind that I don't take exception to your use of TM, it's just that you attempted to create the impression that you reject God because of your own reasoned analysis.
Now, it appears that you may simply have been told to reject God by your Guru.

Hello tony1:

It appears that your reasoning is like swiss cheese. May be because you thought you will know everything without the aids of your five senses!

TM is as scientific as neuroscience. Of course you know that, don't you?

Originally posted by kmguru
...like swiss cheese.
Yum.
TM is as scientific as neuroscience.
Here I was, thinking it was as scientific as Hinduism.
Oh wait, it IS Hinduism.
Of course you know that, don't you?
Oh yeah, but I'm not as gullible as you.
Presumably, you think it is scientific because it is CALLED the Science of Creative Intelligence.

But, didn't it have a different name before that, like the Spiritual Regeneration Movement?
Like when it was a complete dud, about 30 years ago?

The name was changed because Maharishi Whatever realized that westerners wouldn't fall for it unless the word "science" showed up in the name somewhere.

So yeah, it's pretty scientific, alright.

Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of whether Cris reasoned that there was no God on his own or whether his Guru just told him there was no God.

Kmguru,

We found in the past that tony1 never offers anything constructive in these debates. Anything you say will be met with entirely destructive cynicism, regardless of any relevance to the topic. He is also a ‘last word’ freak. Any time you spend on developing a reasoned argument will be wasted since reasoning is not on his agenda.

Despite the frustrating illogic of his statements and the intense desire to respond to them, you will only achieve greater frustration. Any response you make will fuel his fire of irrelevance and illogic.

I recommend to you and everyone else, simply ignore him completely - he adds no value here

Cris

Originally posted by Cris
We found in the past that tony1 never offers anything constructive in these debates. Anything you say will be met with entirely destructive cynicism, regardless of any relevance to the topic. He is also a ‘last word’ freak.
Bummer.
Any time you spend on developing a reasoned argument will be wasted since reasoning is not on his agenda.
Actually, it is on my agenda.
Be sure you recognize reason.
What I've seen here is fantasy.

I've spent some time working on robotic equipment, since 1978.
I recognize reality when I see it and I also know that money goes where it gives the greatest returns.

People who have money do the same thing you do.
They say, "I'll believe it when I see it."
They haven't seen any value in androids so they haven't built them.

Despite the frustrating illogic of his statements and the intense desire to respond to them, you will only achieve greater frustration. Any response you make will fuel his fire of irrelevance and illogic.

I recommend to you and everyone else, simply ignore him completely - he adds no value here
You heard it from an atheist pantheist, so it must be true.

Tony:

I will provide you with some information that you may not know. You have a choice of using that information or not. If you can, we can continue on an intelligent discourse, if not...you seem to be a smart cookie...you know tha fall out...

"Here I was, thinking it was as scientific as Hinduism.
Oh wait, it IS Hinduism."

The basic principle behind TM is as old as Vedas and is a part of Indian Philosophy before the term "science" was invented. I did not learn that as TM but as a part of Sanatana Dharma. I knew it as a part of Yoga of Knowledge. Anyway, since Maharishi called it TM, who am I to argue for identification puposes. I am not a disciple of him, so I have no idea if he blended Hinduism with Neuroscience. To keep it simple I use the word TM...

But the fact remains that the process can be explained via neuroscience and information science which I am a world class expert.

"Oh yeah, but I'm not as gullible as you."
If my gullibility in information science earns me tons of money and lets me have fun with computers like Paracel, Sun E10K, play with Bio-Informatics, Unsupervised Adaptive neural nets, who am I to argue.

"Of course, that still doesn't answer the question of whether Cris reasoned that there was no God on his own or whether his Guru just told him there was no God."

Guru is a sanskrit word for teacher - in case you did not know. Now I am not trying to defend Cris, if you would have directed that question to me I would answer this way:

You just did not pop out of the test tube or your mother's womb with all the knowledge from non-human origin. If you think you did, my lips are sealed, I would not tell a soul.

So people have to learn, analyze and so on. Use certain methodology to arrive at a conclusion...I am sure you know where I am going....

I am a recognized expert in the field of expert systems, neuralnet and advanced decision systems. On the side I have worked with neurologists to help stroke victims to improve their motor functions. I am happy to say, I was able to help restore 99% of a stroke patient where the dignosis was 50% recovery.

So if you want to engage in some intelligent conversation, you are welcome. If not....c'est la vie....

Originally posted by kmguru
To keep it simple I use the word TM...
I'm with you on that.

But the fact remains that the process can be explained via neuroscience and information science which I am a world class expert.
By "the process," I assume you mean TM.

If my gullibility in information science earns me tons of money and lets me have fun with computers like Paracel, Sun E10K, play with Bio-Informatics, Unsupervised Adaptive neural nets, who am I to argue.
I wouldn't and I don't.
The latest boom in tech stocks flushed a lot of cash out of even more gullible wallets into the computer industry.
No problem there.

Guru is a sanskrit word for teacher - in case you did not know.
I did.
I am a recognized expert in the field of expert systems, neuralnet and advanced decision systems. On the side I have worked with neurologists to help stroke victims to improve their motor functions. I am happy to say, I was able to help restore 99% of a stroke patient where the dignosis was 50% recovery.

So if you want to engage in some intelligent conversation, you are welcome. If not....c'est la vie....
Great.
But what do you wish to say, now that you've established your point of view?

I just said it....and apparently you got it...now let us move on...

Life is short....then you die.... (- Mel Gibson)

Originally posted by kmguru
now let us move on...
OK

You were saying,"May be because you thought you will know everything without the aids of your five senses! "

My answer is, "I think I will know everything WITH, but not exclusively with, the aid of my five senses."

It all started when you said: "For a guy who otherwise prefers to create an impression of scientific rigor, this TM thing seems out of character." to Cris.

I took an issue with that because of following reasonings:


The word Science means "Knowledge"
Your five senses and any other senses you have that we are not aware of provide "Data".
To turn "Data" to "Knowledge", you need a teacher. A "teacher" teaches and you "learn" from it.
The teacher take many forms - your parents, school and collge teachers, friends...and so on.
You "learn" to convert "data" to "Knowledge"

TM or any similar process is a process that facilitates in converting "Data" to "Knowledge" that which you know at a faster and quicker rate than no processes.

A TM teacher helps guide through the process so that you can utilize the technique to convert your data to knowledge.

An analogy will be how to read an X-ray film of a human chest. You see the light and shadow but you need training by a teacher to convert those light and shadow to meaningful knowledge.

The issue I took is that I say a teacher is necessary and TM enhances ones ability to understand those data.

You can agrue that you have another method that works for you. And you may be right. But you can not say that the method Cris used is wrong! or somehow diminishes his intellect!

It works for Cris, it works for me and many of my students. They improve their grade points, become successful and highly productive members of the society and most importantly they are happy. You seem to be a smart person. I am not knocking your methods...and I am not even saying TM is the only thing in town.

So, dont knock it until you try it....

Other than that we apparently agree on everything...great minds think alike... :D

Originally posted by kmguru
The word Science means "Knowledge"
This brings up a point...
Why would Maharishi M. Y. change the name of his movement from "Spiritual Regeneration Movement" to "Science of Creative Intelligence?"
Didn't he "know" he wanted to deal with science?
Why would he be congratulated on the growth of SCI by the Vishva Hindu Parishad, which is the biggest missionary organization in the world?

To turn "Data" to "Knowledge", you need a teacher. A "teacher" teaches and you "learn" from it.
This is the weak point, the fly in the ointment, so to speak.
How would you "know" you have the right teacher?
How would you "know" what the teacher is actually teaching you?

Presumably, you would have to have another teacher to teach you that first.

TM or any similar process is a process that facilitates in converting "Data" to "Knowledge" that which you know at a faster and quicker rate than no processes.
Sounds neat, but what about the suicide rate and the mental disturbance rate among TM devotees?

And again, what exactly is it that you end up "knowing?"
Any time a religion brings up the concept of maya, or illusion, one should ask why.
Which is the actual illusion, what you know, or what the guru is trying to tell you it is?
Think "three-card monte."
A TM teacher helps guide through the process so that you can utilize the technique to convert your data to knowledge.
Actually, that is not the guru's purpose.
The guru is there so that you won't quit.
The guru's purpose is to ensure that, as your spiritual defenses against demonic activity are activated, they are torn down or sidestepped so that you will be in direct contact with demons.
If you take exception to the word "demons," feel free to replace it with "spiritual entities."

The issue I took is that I say a teacher is necessary and TM enhances ones ability to understand those data.
I say a teacher is not necessary.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
(1 John 2:27, KJV).

I also say that TM is Hinduism, pure and simple.
If you don't believe me, you can take the Hindus' word for it.

As you know, Hinduism results in a high quality of life.
India has by far the highest standard of living in the world (tongue-in-cheek).

Actually, TM techniques are yogic techniques which are very effective in making contact with the spirit world.
However, very few people have the intelligence, before or after TM, to discern between good and bad where spiritual issues are concerned.
Interestingly, most people can discern between good and bad for each of the five senses, but in spiritual things, for some reason, everything is discerned as good.

You can agrue that you have another method that works for you. And you may be right. But you can not say that the method Cris used is wrong!
Sure I can.
I'm assuming that Cris is interested in the best possible result for his efforts in life.
The path that he has chosen won't give him that.
So it is "wrong" from Cris' perspective.

or somehow diminishes his intellect!
A person could go in different directions from that comment, but suffice it to say that his intellect will go downhill from here, if he doesn't change his mind.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
(Isaiah 66:4, KJV).

It works for Cris, it works for me and many of my students.
Just to make the point clear...
TM works.
Yoga techniques work.
Hinduism works.
I say that their practitioners don't know what they work for.

They improve their grade points, become successful and highly productive members of the society and most importantly they are happy.
They also become insane, commit suicide, etc.
And ultimately lose their lives.
Other than that we apparently agree on everything...great minds think alike...
Actually, we are diametrically opposed.

Your guru would have you believe that Hinduism accepts and tolerates Christianity, and that Jesus Christ is just an another avatar.

But, just to be on the safe side, where Hindus rule, the preaching of Christ is illegal.

This brings up a point...
Why would Maharishi M. Y. change the name of his movement from "Spiritual Regeneration Movement" to "Science of Creative Intelligence?"
Didn't he "know" he wanted to deal with science?
Why would he be congratulated on the growth of SCI by the Vishva Hindu Parishad, which is the biggest missionary organization in the world?

I do not know, I do not care, I am not M.Y.'s Chela


This is the weak point, the fly in the ointment, so to speak.
How would you "know" you have the right teacher?
How would you "know" what the teacher is actually teaching you?
Presumably, you would have to have another teacher to teach you that first.
Please go to the philosophy section, read and study philosophy well, whether knowledge is "a priori" or "a posteroi", people have been debating for hundreds of years...if you become a student of mine, I will teach you the secret answer. Dont take my word for it, even Chagur knows the answer to life, universe and everything. He may charge you $1000. :D My rates are somewhat expensive. :D :D


Sounds neat, but what about the suicide rate and the mental disturbance rate among TM devotees?
It must be those Christian militants - what you call them? Born Again? We also have Moslem militants, Hindu militants, and believe it or not we have Sinto militants that wanted to kill thousands of people with Sarin gas. It will drive the most saints....nuts


And again, what exactly is it that you end up "knowing?"
Any time a religion brings up the concept of maya, or illusion, one should ask why.
Which is the actual illusion, what you know, or what the guru is trying to tell you it is?
Think "three-card monte."

You will know, what is knowable by your puny mind. It can only hold so much!

Actually, that is not the guru's purpose.
The guru is there so that you won't quit.
The guru's purpose is to ensure that, as your spiritual defenses against demonic activity are activated, they are torn down or sidestepped so that you will be in direct contact with demons.
If you take exception to the word "demons," feel free to replace it with "spiritual entities." Sorry, I am not in the spirit world, Demons, Spirits, they are alien words to me. I know they exist in Dictionary, but the concept eludes me.


I say a teacher is not necessary. Bravo...Do you know how much money we can save as a society if we eliminate all the public and private schools and Universities? I wonder how you imparted your bare expressions on this forum?...must be those spirits (hope it is not the bottle kind!)

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
(1 John 2:27, KJV). What does this mean? And why I should take this statement perhaps by a story teller to be true? and is this your science?

I also say that TM is Hinduism, pure and simple.
If you don't believe me, you can take the Hindus' word for it.
Come to Eastern Philosophy section, and let us debate on that

As you know, Hinduism results in a high quality of life.
India has by far the highest standard of living in the world (tongue-in-cheek).
So you want me to assume, that the corollary is true. That is USA has by far the highest standard of living. USA has majority Christians. Therefore Christianity results in high quality of life. Bravo...again you out did yourself! In another thread, I posted that US consumption of psychotropic legal drugs are heading to $45 billion. According to government estimate, the feel good non-legal drugs are at $100 to $200 billion per year. The divorce rate is 63.5%. Two million people (mostly Christians) are in jail. USA by far has the biggest mental healthcare in the world (another $150 Billion). Date rapes are rampant in University campuses with the aid of GHB. If I keep going, I will fill up the page. But of course....Christianity results in a high quality of life (tounge-in-cheek - get it!)

Actually, TM techniques are yogic techniques which are very effective in making contact with the spirit world. This abuse must stop. I can teach TM, but I do not believe in spirit world. So somebody is smoking something, it aint me!
However, very few people have the intelligence, before or after TM, to discern between good and bad where spiritual issues are concerned. Now, for the first time, you said something intelligent. TM, if practiced incorrectly, can cause auto-hallucinations, due to the way brain processes information. That is why you need a teacher. It is like physical therapy. Simple logics can solve that.

Interestingly, most people can discern between good and bad for each of the five senses, but in spiritual things, for some reason, everything is discerned as good.Believe it or not, TM can strengthen the belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ, and ones religion including Christianity. People like you and other Christian militants, instead of fighting it, should have embraced it to enhance Christianity. But what can I say, it was not invented by a Christian! so it must be evil. Right? When Saint Peter (I think Peter) went to India, his teaching spread. Now there are a whole lot of Christians in India coexisting with Hindus. No body said, the ideas are alien and let us reject it! And you know what, the high and mighty American Christians look down upon Indian Christians as if they are untouchables! I grew up in a Christian community, I know. Why is that?


Sure I can.
I'm assuming that Cris is interested in the best possible result for his efforts in life.
The path that he has chosen won't give him that.So it is "wrong" from Cris' perspective.How do you "know"


A person could go in different directions from that comment, but suffice it to say that his intellect will go downhill from here, if he doesn't change his mind.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
(Isaiah 66:4, KJV).I was told, in USA, there are a lot of brain fried Christians, are you one of those? of course, you will say NO!


Just to make the point clear...
TM works.
Yoga techniques work.
Hinduism works.
Thank you

I say that their practitioners don't know what they work for.Let them judge for themselves. If you never tasted a specific food such as a tomato, how do you know it tastes bad until you try it?


They also become insane, commit suicide, etc.
And ultimately lose their lives.Hardly, USA imports tons of brain power from India every year. Just look at the computer industry...

Actually, we are diametrically opposed. Then it is pointless to argue. As they say, never argue with a FOOL, listeners can not tell which is which

Your guru would have you believe that Hinduism accepts and tolerates Christianity, and that Jesus Christ is just an another avatar. My own experience tells me, in Christianity money talks. Christians like you bow down to Japanese because they are the second largest economy. Now going to bow down to China, because they are the next in the economic ladder. But treat Indian Christians like shit because...they are poor!Well I have news for you. For thousands of years everybody was in search of India including Columbus. Every civilization has a rise and fall, it is a cycle. May be India with its home grown Christians and Hindus will teach the world a lesson in real Christianity - the way Jesus meant it to be! Someday - as India enters the Information Age and as has been foretold in the Vedas.

Now I understand, what Cris told me, it is a waste of our time to argue with a militant. That is why the fight never stops in mideast. Even GOD could not convince these type of people, so he waited for them to die a natural death in the desert. And I am a mere mortal.

I see that you've learned to use a bit of color in your posts. Congratulations! It almost makes you inane responses seem palatable (but they still leave a bad taste when chewed on).

As to what I charge ... nothing. I sincerely feel that knowledge is something that should be shared even though I know full well that many people believe only in charlatans who milk the gullible dry. I guess it all goes back to my hacker days when everyone felt that knowledge should be free.

Bye :D

Hi, Chagur:

Looks like humor is not something you chew on very well. :D That is OK. The fact that you chewed it says that you are brave.

And thank you for chewing my colorful work. You did say, I should take flintstones multis ! :D

Bye

*Originally posted by kmguru
if you become a student of mine, I will teach you the secret answer.*
I'm sure you would.
However, you offer death, I seek life.
I'm not going to be a student of yours.

*My rates are somewhat expensive.*
Yes, life.
I've got only one, so I'm not spending it to buy death.

* It must be those Christian militants*
Christian militant TMers?
Wow, there are three words I'd never have thought to put in a row!!

* - what you call them? Born Again?*
I don't call them born again.

Born again is something you will see for only a short time, unless you change your mind.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-44, KJV).

*You will know, what is knowable by your puny mind. It can only hold so much!*
That "puny mind" comment is usually reserved for demons of a relatively high order, relative to zero, that is.

*Sorry, I am not in the spirit world, Demons, Spirits, they are alien words to me. I know they exist in Dictionary, but the concept eludes me.*
Sure, it does.
But it did not escape Maharishi M. Y., and it does not escape other swamis and maharishis.

* I wonder how you imparted your bare expressions on this forum?*
Simple, I used a computer.

*What does this mean?*
Doesn't your guru know?

*And why I should take this statement perhaps by a story teller to be true?*
Do you not know?

*So you want me to assume, that the corollary is true. That is USA has by far the highest standard of living.*
Does it?
In any case, I don't want you to assume that.
Starvation is not an issue for many Americans.

*USA has majority Christians.*
No, Christianity is a minority thing.

*legal drugs are heading to $45 billion.*
$163 per person

* non-legal drugs are at $100 to $200 billion per year.*
$360 to $720 per person

*The divorce rate is 63.5%*
That's bad.

*Two million people (mostly Christians) are in jail.*
Checking off "Christian" on a form does not make one Christian.

* USA by far has the biggest mental healthcare in the world (another $150 Billion).*
That's your competiton, the medical priesthood.

*Date rapes are rampant in University campuses with the aid of GHB.*
Interesting point.
No mainline universities are Christian, anymore.
Oddly enough, the divinity schools are teaching, what is it? Oh yes, Hinduism and TM practices.
Coincidence? I think not.

* If I keep going, I will fill up the page.*
You would.
Coincidentally, or not, a graph of the increase in those problems you mentioned almost exactly matches the increase of Hindu teaching in the US.

So, your point was?

*This abuse must stop.*
My, how hypersensitive we are today.

* I can teach TM, but I do not believe in spirit world. So somebody is smoking something, it aint me!*
Who is accusing you of smoking anything?

*TM, if practiced incorrectly, can cause auto-hallucinations, due to the way brain processes information. That is why you need a teacher. It is like physical therapy. Simple logics can solve that.*
Of course, that begs the question.
How would I know you were taught correctly?
And, how would I know that your guru was taught correctly?

*Believe it or not, TM can strengthen the belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ, and ones religion including Christianity.*
Of course, it would help if those teachings come throught the guru.
Anyway, I'm sure that apostates who still refer to Jesus would, in fact, be strengthened in their beliefs.

*People like you and other Christian militants, instead of fighting it, should have embraced it to enhance Christianity.*
Well, that would make the spread of Hinduism easier, now wouldn't it?

*But what can I say, it was not invented by a Christian! so it must be evil. Right?*
I think you're on to something!

*Now there are a whole lot of Christians in India coexisting with Hindus. No body said, the ideas are alien and let us reject it!*
Of course not.
What's one more god when you have 330 million?

*And you know what, the high and mighty American Christians look down upon Indian Christians as if they are untouchables!*
I sense bitterness.

*I grew up in a Christian community, I know. Why is that? *

I don't know, because you were born there?

*How do you "know"*
Easy.
If Cris wants result X, and he does things that give result Y, then it is wrong.

*]I was told, in USA, there are a lot of brain fried Christians, are you one of those? of course, you will say NO!*
Of course.
You were lied to.

*Thank you*
Don't thank me.
Thank your guru when you're tossed in the lake of fire.

*]Let them judge for themselves.*
Sorry, I'm not as callous as you are.
If I let them judge for themselves, they may curse me for not warning them, when they find out the truth.

* If you never tasted a specific food such as a tomato, how do you know it tastes bad until you try it?*
Let's try something other than a tomato for an example.

Let's take, "jumping off a cliff."

"If you never tried a specific action such as a jumping off a cliff, how do you know it's bad until you try it?"

Now, it sounds like only a loony would say it.

*Hardly, USA imports tons of brain power from India every year. Just look at the computer industry...*
If things were so good in India, why would they come here?

*]My own experience tells me, in Christianity money talks.*
I can't quite tell what your point is with that.

If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11, KJV).

However, one of God's desires for his people is prosperity.

*Christians like you bow down to Japanese because they are the second largest economy.*
Fat chance.
I don't bow to any economy.

*Now going to bow down to China, because they are the next in the economic ladder.*
Sorry, no again.

*But treat Indian Christians like shit because...they are poor!*
Again, I'm hearing some bitterness.
Make sure you are not blaming Christians for the fact that Hindus made Christianity illegal in India.
I suspect that economic sanctions went along with that.

*Well I have news for you. For thousands of years everybody was in search of India including Columbus.*
Wasn't that when there were more home-grown Christians in India?
And before Christianity was criminalized in 1948?

*May be India with its home grown Christians and Hindus will teach the world a lesson in real Christianity - the way Jesus meant it to be!*
Well, why don't you show the world how it was meant to be?
Rather than carrying a load of bitterness, preaching the gospel will give you greater rewards.

*Someday - as India enters the Information Age and as has been foretold in the Vedas.*
Of course, maybe the Vedas foretold the earlier glory of India.

*Now I understand, what Cris told me, it is a waste of our time to argue with a militant. *
Of course, you've been arguing with yourself.
I can only type my answer after you post yours.

*Even GOD could not convince these type of people, so he waited for them to die a natural death in the desert.*

Here's what God said about that...

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
(1 Corinthians 10:11).

Learn from their example.
Don't die a natural death in the desert, too.

Hi Tony:

Thank you for the debate.

"Rather than carrying a load of bitterness, preaching the gospel will give you greater rewards." You are right. Here it goes:

If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11, KJV).

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
(1 Corinthians 10:11).

AMEN

Bye

*Originally posted by kmguru
Thank you for the debate.*
What?
We haven't even gotten started yet.

*If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
(Job 36:11, KJV).

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
(1 Corinthians 10:11). *
Good stuff.

It would be a shame if you miss out on those rewards after preaching like that.

After all, if Jesus is not your Lord, you can preach like you just did, miss the point completely and have someone else reap the benefits.

After all, if Jesus is not your Lord, you can preach like you just did, miss the point completely and have someone else reap the benefits.

Jesus is my Lord's Son.
I hope you are reaping the benefits. Are you?
Dont you worry about me, my Lord will take care of me. My Lord did send his only Son...remember and remember well...