I.D.:



My definition offered seems to contradict this, although I could not tell you which one is true.

I think it is time to find quotes from Das Kapital or The Communist Manifesto.

Anyone have them off hand to discuss Marx's own words on whether or not Socialism and Communism are the same?

However, even if we shall admit that Socialism is not the same as Communism, it is pretty much extraneous to the main push of the argument: That a system whose foundational principle is "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is fundamentally a "double evil".



It depends on whether one accounts for taxation. Owing to the sharp gradient, one earning more often earns less than one who is earning less, because of the taxation one has on income. In that sense, social mobility is lower, in as much as one must accomplish much more in order to attain to much more, whereas such is not the case say, in the United Sttes, or otherwise less regulated economies.

However, Sweden is not entirely against merit and such, nor is it founded on "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" so my main Communist critique is not applicable to it.



The problem is that at public education can degenerate quickly. See the US' at the present time, for instance.Just a quick note on the last sentence. Public schools are excellent for wealthy suburban school districts with parents that are willing to pay higher taxes for them. Check out test scores in upscale white suburbs. Public schools in ghettos do not fare as well as the patrons generally are not supportive of education. Slapping all public schools with the "failed" label may be a simple task but it just isn't true.
The current system is a caste system I would think you'd be in favor of: Wealthy to upper middle class white suburbanites get new schools, excellent and motivated teachers and national recognition of test scores, college enrollment and other goodies. Poorer urban minorities get battered buildings, exhausted, burned out and stressed teachers and a patronage that places little value on education.

You also fail to realize that upscale whites have:

1. A twofold genetic advantage. Their parents are most likely higher-IQ and their race is on average higher IQ-ed than blacks and Latinos.

2. A cultural advantage: Upscale white culture is not against education like lowscale black and Latino culture.

3. An economic advantage: They can get more books, more tutors, more access to things, et cetera.

4. A behavioural advantage: Upscale whites do not commit crimes and cause distirubances as often as lowscale blacks and Latinos.

However, even if we shall admit that Socialism is not the same as Communism, it is pretty much extraneous to the main push of the argument: That a system whose foundational principle is "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is fundamentally a "double evil".

With the socialism comment I merely intended to give what I understood in order to identify the relationship between socialism and communism. I meant to address the part about communism being evil separately. Sorry if they flowed directly from one into the other, I just like to have a minimum length for my paragraphs, and I seem to be incapable of deviating regardless of the confusion it makes.

It depends on whether one accounts for taxation. Owing to the sharp gradient, one earning more often earns less than one who is earning less, because of the taxation one has on income. In that sense, social mobility is lower, in as much as one must accomplish much more in order to attain to much more, whereas such is not the case say, in the United Sttes, or otherwise less regulated economies.

However, Sweden is not entirely against merit and such, nor is it founded on "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" so my main Communist critique is not applicable to it.

The problem is that at public education can degenerate quickly. See the US' at the present time, for instance.

Another apology is necessary here. I wrote Sweden while discussing Norway. They are similar, but I screwed up a little. Anyway, concerning the public education system in the United States. First off, it is executed poorly. It's already rather capitalistic (schools that perform well are rewarded with grants and flocks of students), and in such a way that schools that do not perform well receive little in the way of aid. Also, the education system makes up a relatively small portion of the federal budget, far smaller than, say, Social Security. Why is this? The people who should be receiving the benefit from the school system (children) do not vote. The ones who can are highly unlikely to either vote or mobilize in favor of laws that benefit public education. The elderly, on the other hand, have a high percentage of voters. The AARP is currently a powerful force in American politics.

I.D.:

With the socialism comment I merely intended to give what I understood in order to identify the relationship between socialism and communism. I meant to address the part about communism being evil separately. Sorry if they flowed directly from one into the other, I just like to have a minimum length for my paragraphs, and I seem to be incapable of deviating regardless of the confusion it makes.

No apology necessary.

Another apology is necessary here. I wrote Sweden while discussing Norway. They are similar, but I screwed up a little. Anyway, concerning the public education system in the United States. First off, it is executed poorly. It's already rather capitalistic (schools that perform well are rewarded with grants and flocks of students), and in such a way that schools that do not perform well receive little in the way of aid. Also, the education system makes up a relatively small portion of the federal budget, far smaller than, say, Social Security. Why is this? The people who should be receiving the benefit from the school system (children) do not vote. The ones who can are highly unlikely to either vote or mobilize in favor of laws that benefit public education. The elderly, on the other hand, have a high percentage of voters. The AARP is currently a powerful force in American politics.

Interesting commentary on this.

We should start a "Public Education" thread, for yourself, myself, and Genji.

You also fail to realize that upscale whites have:

1. A twofold genetic advantage. Their parents are most likely higher-IQ and their race is on average higher IQ-ed than blacks and Latinos.

2. A cultural advantage: Upscale white culture is not against education like lowscale black and Latino culture.

3. An economic advantage: They can get more books, more tutors, more access to things, et cetera.

4. A behavioural advantage: Upscale whites do not commit crimes and cause distirubances as often as lowscale blacks and Latinos.So now instead of bashing all public schools maybe you can just target Urban School Systems instead.

You also fail to realize that upscale whites have:

1. A twofold genetic advantage. Their parents are most likely higher-IQ and their race is on average higher IQ-ed than blacks and Latinos.

2. A cultural advantage: Upscale white culture is not against education like lowscale black and Latino culture.

3. An economic advantage: They can get more books, more tutors, more access to things, et cetera.

4. A behavioural advantage: Upscale whites do not commit crimes and cause distirubances as often as lowscale blacks and Latinos.
What do you mean by lowscale and upscale?

What do you mean by lowscale and upscale?For me, at least, upscale means financially well off people or community. Never heard of "low scale."

You also fail to realize that upscale whites have:

1. A twofold genetic advantage. Their parents are most likely higher-IQ and their race is on average higher IQ-ed than blacks and Latinos.

2. A cultural advantage: Upscale white culture is not against education like lowscale black and Latino culture.

3. An economic advantage: They can get more books, more tutors, more access to things, et cetera.

4. A behavioural advantage: Upscale whites do not commit crimes and cause distirubances as often as lowscale blacks and Latinos.

All the more reason to have public schooling. However, we really should chat about this more in a separate thread, considering the ease with which we can digress too far from the original topic.

Also, the education system makes up a relatively small portion of the federal budget, far smaller than, say, Social Security. Why is this?

It's because funding education is the responsibility of state and local governments, not the federal government. Federal education spending only covers things like schools on military bases, administration of standardized tests, and programs to train teachers. Total taxpayer spending on education is larger than on *anything* else (almost as much as Social Security and defense combined).

http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html

It's because funding education is the responsibility of state and local governments, not the federal government. Federal education spending only covers things like schools on military bases, administration of standardized tests, and programs to train teachers. Total taxpayer spending on education is larger than on *anything* else (almost as much as Social Security and defense combined).

http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.htmlThe amount suburban residents are more than willing to pay in higher property taxes for their school districts is astounding. These areas are also majority Republican.

The amount suburban residents are more than willing to pay in higher property taxes for their school districts is astounding. These areas are also majority Republican.
Genji, I live in one of the most Republican parts of the Republican State of Indiana. Coincidently, my kid's school district is one of the best in the state. Of course I'll support taxes to support local schools. My wife and I are active at the school, go to meetings, and assist in fund raisers. We specifically moved here because of the schools.

Genji, I live in one of the most Republican parts of the Republican State of Indiana. Coincidently, my kid's school district is one of the best in the state. Of course I'll support taxes to support local schools. My wife and I are active at the school, go to meetings, and assist in fund raisers. We specifically moved here because of the schools.
My point exactly. Public school bashers label all public schools as bad government schools that are failing and need revamped/replaced. This is bs of course.
I work in a District that sounds like the one you are in: A suburb in a wealthy county where patrons are eager to pay for the very best in everything about their schools. Homes retain value and revenue is never a problem. In fact, over $400 per month of some patron's house payments are property taxes! Move east 15 miles to the Kansas City Missouri School District and you find battered buildings, violence, poverty, low pay for teachers, parents hostile to education in many cases, billions blown on desegregation and some capital improvements and anyone that can get out does, fast.
It's all what you are willing to pay for. Plus attitudes toward education vary sharply from rich district to poor.

My point exactly. Public school bashers label all public schools as bad government schools that are failing and need revamped/replaced. This is bs of course.
I work in a District that sounds like the one you are in: A suburb in a wealthy county where patrons are eager to pay for the very best in everything about their schools. Homes retain value and revenue is never a problem. In fact, over $400 per month of some patron's house payments are property taxes! Move east 15 miles to the Kansas City Missouri School District and you find battered buildings, violence, poverty, low pay for teachers, parents hostile to education in many cases, billions blown on desegregation and some capital improvements and anyone that can get out does, fast.
It's all what you are willing to pay for. Plus attitudes toward education vary sharply from rich district to poor.
That last bit is the most important. My son's highschool has a truly zero tolerance policy for misbehavior. You fuck up, you're sent to a reform school for a month. And the parents are all 100% behind education.

I really don't think a fancy building improves education. It's the attitude of the students, teachers, and parents. If a school is a war zone run by gangs, how the hell is anyone going to learn?

They should restore order at these inner city schools. They should ship out the trouble makers and gang members to military type reform schools where they have zero freedom and zero chance to cause trouble. Like my son's school, this could be for a month or so for a minor offence, and permanently for a major or repeat offender. This would allow the teachers to concentrate on the students who actually want to learn.

That last bit is the most important. My son's highschool has a truly zero tolerance policy for misbehavior. You fuck up, you're sent to a reform school for a month. And the parents are all 100% behind education.

I really don't think a fancy building improves education. It's the attitude of the students, teachers, and parents. If a school is a war zone run by gangs, how the hell is anyone going to learn?

They should restore order at these inner city schools. They should ship out the trouble makers and gang members to military type reform schools where they have zero freedom and zero chance to cause trouble. Like my son's school, this could be for a month or so for a minor offence, and permanently for a major or repeat offender. This would allow the teachers to concentrate on the students who actually want to learn.Kids in bad districts have rarely seen education benefit anyone. Certainly not their parents, that live in the ghetto and can't climb out with a GED or HS diploma that might get them jobs at Taco Bell or a car wash. These centrallly important role models aren't there for these kids, so TEACHERS are expected to fill in a helluva lot of gaps. This can't be done for thousands and thousands of students. These communities do not support tax hikes to improve their schools.
Public schools work for some though in these problem areas. But the Parents and the Community must address this problem, not the schools.
If you want to learn the resources are there. If you don't give a shit the schools aren't magically going to make you WANT out of multigenerational poverty.

Kids in bad districts have rarely seen education benefit anyone. Certainly not their parents, that live in the ghetto and can't climb out with a GED or HS diploma that might get them jobs at Taco Bell or a car wash. These centrallly important role models aren't there for these kids, so TEACHERS are expected to fill in a helluva lot of gaps. This can't be done for thousands and thousands of students. These communities do not support tax hikes to improve their schools.
Public schools work for some though in these problem areas. But the Parents and the Community must address this problem, not the schools.
If you want to learn the resources are there. If you don't give a shit the schools aren't magically going to make you WANT out of multigenerational poverty.
Damn, Genji. You sounded like a conservative for a minute there.

I still say we have a responsibility to at least provide security and that this can not be done without getting rid of the bad apples.

I am a doctor because I worked hard, studied, and got good grades. Also, because my parents had the good sence to get the hell out of Gary, IN when it started going to hell.

I remember when we first moved to a new town in third grade (from an increasingly black Gary, to a 99.9% white Crown Point) I was put in slow class. By the end of the year, I was in the highest group. Had we stayed in Gary, the highest group would have still sucked.

The same thing happened to my oldest son. We were living in a district in Illinois with one of the best school districts in the state (by coincidence, 99% white). Some dumbass judge stepped in and merged our district with a nearby ghetto district and suddenly our highschool was majority black. The judge also forced most of the best teachers to transfer to the ghetto schools. Many of them retired rather than risk their lives in this high crime area.

Anyway, my son was in all the "alpha classes", getting straight A's. But coincident with the sudden demographic shift was a marked increase in disruptions at the school and a concomitent decrease in the quality of education.

When we arrived at our new town, and state (in an area with no adjacent ghetto districts for judges to merge us with), my son also tested into slow class despite being ranked like #4 at his old school. He's now back in advanced math, but his English is still only about average.

Though I noted the racial component of these situations, it really had nothing to do with pigmentations. The problem was the attitude of the incoming students and their parents.

Every time some jackass judge fucks up another school district, they simply chase the parents who care about their childrens education further and further away. Leaving an enlarging core of uneducated children largely unfit to live in a modern society.

Guys, let's please move this to another thread. Okay? This isn't the thread for it.

Moderator, please move these posts on public education to at hread I am starting.

A discussion on public education. Moderator, please move the other thread's crap here.

Damn, Genji. You sounded like a conservative for a minute there.

I still say we have a responsibility to at least provide security and that this can not be done without getting rid of the bad apples.

I am a doctor because I worked hard, studied, and got good grades. Also, because my parents had the good sence to get the hell out of Gary, IN when it started going to hell.

I remember when we first moved to a new town in third grade (from an increasingly black Gary, to a 99.9% white Crown Point) I was put in slow class. By the end of the year, I was in the highest group. Had we stayed in Gary, the highest group would have still sucked.

The same thing happened to my oldest son. We were living in a district in Illinois with one of the best school districts in the state (by coincidence, 99% white). Some dumbass judge stepped in and merged our district with a nearby ghetto district and suddenly our highschool was majority black. The judge also forced most of the best teachers to transfer to the ghetto schools. Many of them retired rather than risk their lives in this high crime area.

Anyway, my son was in all the "alpha classes", getting straight A's. But coincident with the sudden demographic shift was a marked increase in disruptions at the school and a concomitent decrease in the quality of education.

When we arrived at our new town, and state (in an area with no adjacent ghetto districts for judges to merge us with), my son also tested into slow class despite being ranked like #4 at his old school. He's now back in advanced math, but his English is still only about average.

Though I noted the racial component of these situations, it really had nothing to do with pigmentations. The problem was the attitude of the incoming students and their parents.

Every time some jackass judge fucks up another school district, they simply chase the parents who care about their childrens education further and further away. Leaving an enlarging core of uneducated children largely unfit to live in a modern society.:eek: I went to an abortion rights march in Crown Point in '89! There was a racial conflaguration there the year before I think.
My parents did much the same thing; Moved me out of a district that was becoming more black to a new suburban district in what was then farm country, now an area that needs moved out of again! Anyway, I went to great schools, all new and all white. Moving from the problems kids in poverty are in doesn't solve the problem. Obviously.

I don't feel like repeating all my arguments all over again.:cool:

Genji:

You won't have to. The mod is going to put the arguments here.

Guys, let's please move this to another thread. Okay? This isn't the thread for it.

Moderator, please move these posts on public education to at thread I am starting.
Sorry about highjacking your thread. On topic: PJ, it sounds like you've read a lot of Any Rand? Have you. Of particular interest, Capitalism, the unknown Ideal. One of her nonfiction works.

No problem on the hijacking. I just wanted to give us a better venue for that (also interesting) discussion. The mods will take care of it in a second.

I have read "Philosophy: Who Needs It?", but not "Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal". I have been meaning to pick up "Capitalism..." though!

I've also read "Atlas Shrugged".

Good detective work on figuring out that I like Rand, though. She was, as I have said before, a pretty nifty lady. Although I wouldn't call myself a Randian on all levels, her heroic conception of man and anti-Communism are supremely appealing.

Posts on education moved from Communism thread to this one.

Sure thing James R.

Please move from "A Moral Indictment of Communism" posts 73-87 to here.

:eek: I went to an abortion rights march in Crown Point in '89! There was a racial conflaguration there the year before I think.
They had an abortion rights march in my home town!:eek: By then, I was down at IU, so I missed out. Also, I never heard about any racial conflagration. Even now, there are very few blacks in Crown Point, so that puzzles me.

My parents did much the same thing; Moved me out of a district that was becoming more black to a new suburban district in what was then farm country, now an area that needs moved out of again! Anyway, I went to great schools, all new and all white. Moving from the problems kids in poverty doesn't solve the problem. Obviously.
Well, it does save your kids. But, again, my point was that judges need to butt out and stop with their desegregation crap. All it does is chase away the taxpayers from your district, leaving only those worst off. It magnifies the problem by concentrating it as white families move completely out of the school district or state to avoid the reach of dictatorial judges.

A black kid doesn't need to be sitting next to a white kid to learn. He needs order. He needs parents who care about education.

Maybe we should de-criminalize drugs to de-fund the gangs. That, and use RICO or something to put ALL of the gang members in prison until they're too old to cause trouble. Then the kids can learn that crime and violence don't pay.

No problem on the hijacking. I just wanted to give us a better venue for that (also interesting) discussion. The mods will take care of it in a second.

I have read "Philosophy: Who Needs It?", but not "Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal". I have been meaning to pick up "Capitalism..." though!

I've also read "Atlas Shrugged".

Good detective work on figuring out that I like Rand, though. She was, as I have said before, a pretty nifty lady. Although I wouldn't call myself a Randian on all levels, her heroic conception of man and anti-Communism are supremely appealing.
For a nice description of life under communism (semi-autobiographical) read We the Living. Also, you definately should read The Fountainhead.

Rand was the first person I know of to suggest a better argument for capitalism than, "It works". She was the first (practically the only) to suggest that capitalism not only works better, it's also morally superior. For this audacity, she is villified and not considered a "real" philosopher. She's not even mentioned in Women's Studies, or as a female philosopher.

Shouldn't this be merged with the other education thread also?

They had an abortion rights march in my home town!:eek: By then, I was down at IU, so I missed out. Also, I never heard about any racial conflagration. Even now, there are very few blacks in Crown Point, so that puzzles me.

Well, it does save your kids. But, again, my point was that judges need to butt out and stop with their desegregation crap. All it does is chase away the taxpayers from your district, leaving only those worst off. It magnifies the problem by concentrating it as white families move completely out of the school district or state to avoid the reach of dictatorial judges.

A black kid doesn't need to be sitting next to a white kid to learn. He needs order. He needs parents who care about education.

Maybe we should de-criminalize drugs to de-fund the gangs. That, and use RICO or something to put ALL of the gang members in prison until they're too old to cause trouble. Then the kids can learn that crime and violence don't pay.The Crown Point thing was a Klan rally held at the courthouse/cityhall steps. Busloads of Chicago leftists and activists rode down there to counter protest.
As far as desegregation, it hasn't worked. But the opposite isn't good either. I woulds agree with many of your points but I would add a moratorium on all new school districts and sprawl building.