I would like to make a suggestion, rather a complaint:

I do not feel it is appropriate, in fact it is demeaning, to label the topics of Ufology, Paranomal and Theoretical science, such as time-travel and superluminal physics, as psuedo, or FAKE science. Proponents of these fields are respectable, intelligent people, and designating them as FAKE is blatently wrong and suggests the inventor of this derogative term is taking a right-wing position against these fields.

I think you should respect, that a segment of the members, do not consider this a FAKE science at all. I am one of them.
So please, change the name to something much more appropriate and unoffensive.

Might I suggest: Alternative Science or Paranormal

I understand, that the name of the forum can be changed with immediate effect, without impacting its fuctioning. So, please, change it, as soon as you see this. You have absolutely nothing to lose, and some dignity to gain.

...and there's another segment of users who think there's no place whatsoever for this material on sciforums, and are only placated because it is called false science.

...And this is called an intelligent community?

For my part, I'm glad that there is a pseudo science forum. Whenever I see a topic posted there, I know to move on.

If there weren't, I might end up in a debate over the existence of chemtrails or other such nonsense.

Well, Repoman, although I do not agree with your view, if you feel so vehemently against such topics, no one is forcing you to take part, are they?

Furthermore, it not about the existence of the forum, it's about the name of the forum, which is blatently offensive, and blatently wrong.

Repo, do you lose anything, if it's called something else, like "Paranormal" or "Alternative Science" ?

Blatently? Wtf? You mean "blatantly?"

Pseudoscience is, by definition, "claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility."

That is exactly what the topics in there are. Claims that (sometimes ;)) seem scientific even though they lack evidence. And that is exactly what they are.

Why don't you start complaining about why science is called science? Science and pseudoscience are what they are. As far as I've seen, most topics in the pseudoscience forum have been pseudoscience related. Your argument here is based on the belief that pseudoscience isn't pseudoscience. :rolleyes:

If you're going to bring up the argument of the root "pseudo" meaning "false," then be aware the pseudoscience isn't science. It lacks evidence.

The only dignity being lost here is one of a moron.

Ozymadias, calling the proponents of alternative science, "morons" is not very mature or intelligent, in fact it's quite moronic itself. Thank you for correcting my spelling ;)

Psuedoscience means what it says. Like if I call you a psuedo intellectual, I assure you, it's not a positive thing to say.

Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked Repo Man - What exactly do you stand to lose, if it's called something else?

Why do some work so hard to be blind to all the evidence that so many put forth. How will they ever learn anything else in life, if their minds are slamed so tightly shut?

Does any of these guys work for the government ?

Psuedo science comprises 3% of the total posting, of 17,537 on this forum, it is equal to the size of Ethics and Morality(level pegging we could say)

It is bigger than the following mainstream forums:

Politics
Economics
History
General Science and Technology
Science and Socieity
Human Science
Earth Science
Astronomy etc
Biology Genetics
Computer Science and culture
Intelligence and Machines
Eastern Philosophy
Sci Fi
Parapsychology(Im happy this is not called psuedopsychology)

I won't mention the member forums:

So it certainly does appear to be quite a popular forum, more popular than all of the science mainstream threads, other than Physics anf Maths. So why so much hatred towards it and how can you say it's not important to this forum? It's more evident, it's not important to you, but the forum as a whole, don't seem to mind.
So, should it not be in the interest of all its contributors, that it be given an unoffensive name, that does not mock those, who are "foolish" enough to believe in some alternative science concepts, or wish to discuss them.

I honestly, cannot see, what is so wrong with that. There is absolutely nothing to lose, and there is something to gain.

I agree that the name should be changed also. The sooner the better. Lets change it to something more suitable then what it is. Thanks

An appeal to popularity (logical fallacy) does not strenghthen your case.

Many people like to talk and read about the Loch Ness monster, in spite of its nonexistence. It isn't alternative science, it is unadulterated nonsense.

If people want to talk about a Loch Ness monster, pseudoscience is being kind. The same goes for the other subjects discussed there.

Alternative science implies that there is a valid way to explain things other than facts and evidence.

I'm sure you've heard this: The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. Nonetheless, let's not digress. This thread is NOT about the discussion of how much merit alternative science contains. It is about the demeaning and blatantly wrong classification of alternative sciences as FAKE sciences.

Honestly, it's better this forum is dissolved, than having it exist with such a ridiculous and insulting name. Thus, I'm sure me, and other proponents or believers of alternative sciences, are FAKE? It's completely unacceptable.

The actual discussion of the evidence or the lack of evidence should be done inside the forum in threads. However, where is the room for discussion, when the title of the forum, has already denounced us as FAKE? Where's the justice to that?

Well, really, this isn't the place to be discussing this. If you want to petition to have the name changed, do so in the SF Open Government forum.

Check out a vaguely related discussion Here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=33168).

In a nutshell, James R was considering adding a new forum "Alternative Theories". My suggestion was to rename "Pseudoscience" to "Alternative Theories and Pseudoscience". A couple people agreed and that was pretty much the end of the topic. I know the poll there closed and I don't know if James R ever came to a decision on this issue.

The hardcore science buffs will always want the paranormal stuff clearly labled as such. We can't ignore that without alienating 50% of our membership (or more). 3% want to post in this category. I think my name suggestion is a valid compromise.

What do you guys think? (check out that thread)

As Goofyfish would say: :m: Peace! :)

It seems your mind is not only closed to UFOs,ect..... but to Nessy also.

Porfiry, this is not really a public issue, it's my feedback, and complaint, which is the criterium of this particular forum. Even if 100 people, say the name is right, it won't make it right, because it a fallacy, to call it, what it isn't. It is also insulting to people who do have those views, and do enjoy discussing alternative sciences.

It's like me making a forum called Homosexual Disease to discuss all matters pertaining to homosexuality, and then expecting homosexuals not to be offended.

I couldn't os said it any better if I had tried a for a 1,000 yrs. I wonder if they understood?

In a nutshell, James R was considering adding a new forum "Alternative Theories". My suggestion was to rename "Pseudoscience" to "Alternative Theories and Pseudoscience". A couple people agreed and that was pretty much the end of the topic. I know the poll there closed and I don't know if James R ever came to a decision on this issue.

Thank you for the thread, I gave it a quick glance. It's interesting how 25 or so say they won't ever post in it, and yet it is one of the most popular now. I also find the reason, of creating it, extremely offensive. So, all of us, who enjoy discussing UFO's and alternative sciences, are crackpots and loonys? That's very encouraging, and yet it's called an "intelligent" community?

The hardcore science buffs will always want the paranormal stuff clearly labled as such. We can't ignore that without alienating 50% of our membership (or more). 3% want to post in this category. I think my name suggestion is a valid compromise.

Yes, you just said it!

The hardcore science buffs will always want the paranormal stuff clearly labled as such.

That is also want I want, and both parties can be pleased, with labelling it PARANORMAL, or ALTERNATIVE SCIENCES AND THEORIES, the latter, sounding much more pleasant. That does not mean, insult those "crackpots" or "loonys" you think we are. If we are to be insulted like that, then why should we spend our sparetime, posting at this forum?

I can't understand what the big deal is. What's so wrong with having a clear label? Then we wouldn't waste so much time looking for who and what we want to talk about.

Hi crazymikey and NanAutaben,

Like Porfiry was just trying to tell you, if you want to make a change, lets take it up in "SF Open Government". But if all you wanted to do was voice a complaint, then I guess you have.

Start a poll over there. But please leave open an "other" option, so people can make their own suggestions.

Here are some poll choice examples:
Pseudoscience (left as it is)
Alternative Theories
Alternative Theories and Pseudoscience
Paranormal
Alternative Sciences and Paranormal
Other

Etc, add more as you see fit, or rename and rearrange them. It's your show. :)

Silverback, the democratic method, is not always the most fair method. If we take past polling into consideration, where around 25 said, they would never post in "Psuedoscience" then what has actually happened is a polar opposite.

As I said Silver, even if 100 people said, the name is right, it would not make it right, because calling it what it is now, is a fallacy and offensive.

If you took a poll in Syria, on wether the public should ban Americans from visiting the country, the Syrians that would NOT want that, would be a minority.

As I said, I don't exactly see, why this should be an issue. Changing the name, to Paranormal, or Alternative theories or Alternative Sciences, or whatever, is as easy as pie. Why should it affect others, if it changed? Do they take some sort of sick pleasure, in having us branded as crackpots and loonys, and that forum, is like the laughing stock of the forum? Then why have the forum in the first place?

Consider what you said:

DEMAND 1: The vast majority want it labeled as such, to seperate it from all other discussions:

DEMAND 2: I want it labeled too, but NOT with an offensive and fallacious title - which is a contradiction of the tag - "The intelligent community" Intelligent people do not do such unintelligent things.

The label: PARANORMAL, ALTERNATIVE SCIENCE, ALTERNATIVE THEORIES

The demands do not conflict at all. Demand 2 being fulfilled does not negate Demand 1. So everyone is happy.

And this is consistent with:

The forum: Parapsychology - which is seperate, and at the same time, not offensive and fallacious. No problems there.

So, why should there be an issue at all, to rename the Psuedoscience forum?

I trust that the administrator will do the right and intelligent thing.

You are also free to not come here. I would suggest www.atlantisrising.com and going to their "Discussion" section. They have all the fake science categories laid out from Atlantis to Ufos to Planet X.

The fact remains that "Pseudoscience" is the correct descriptor for the forum here at Sciforums. There is well established set of characteristics that pseudoscience proponants follow, among them being 1) the rejection of mainstream science because its tenents are exclusive, and 2) the offense that mainstream science doesn't include them.

Within genuine science, if I were to write a paper defending a hypothesis, my peers would review it and make comments, often very scathing ones. The pseudoscientist takes great offense to critiques of this nature and often ignores the comments alltogether, all the while defending the hypothesis to the end without revision. The scientist, on the other hand, figures out how to revise the hypothesis to take the critique into consideration (or scraps the whole idea to start new).

The pseudoscience discussed in the forum of the same name is laden with pure speculation and individual fantasy. Very few of the pseudoscience proponants that post there have any evidence to support their claims, but occasionally we see someone use science-like methodology to make a case, as though real scientific method was at work. But in the end, they still refuse to accept critique, revise hypotheses, and rely on unfalsifiable premises rather than the testable. Craterchains was a good example.

The Pseudoscience forum, as I see it, is a place on a "science board" to discuss pseudoscience. Period. If your hypotheses are based in a real science, there's a place for you outside of Pseudoscience. Craterchains at least had the balls to try this. I applaud that effort on his part.

You point out the heavy traffic in Pseudoscience and, hence, it's popularity, but what you fail to take note of is that the majority of the threads and posts are made by pseudoscience proponents.

My hypothesis is that Poirfiry made the Subcultures section to act as a magnate for the kooks, keeping them, and their pseudoscience (or paranormal, metaphysical, alternative... ) ideas from polluting the boards. If so, perhaps it has a purpose and serves it well.

You really do take the cake for the most biased and irrational member. Logical fallacies is thy name:

The fact remains that "Pseudoscience" is the correct descriptor for the forum here at Sciforums. There is well established set of characteristics that pseudoscience proponants follow, among them being 1) the rejection of mainstream science because its tenents are exclusive, and 2) the offense that mainstream science doesn't include them.

Umm, I do not reject mainstream science, nor am I offended that it's not included in mainstream science. Don't worry, I won't slam you for that, I'm use to expecting nothing but nonsense from you now.

Well crazy, if you want alien abductions out of pseudoscience you could go and find some evidence that it occurs. You'd be the most famous person on Earth!

NOVA: Could you please comment on the part of the quality of the evidence that is put forward by these so-called "abduction proponents."

SAGAN: Well, it's almost entirely anecdote. Someone says something happened to them...And, people can say anything. The fact that someone says something doesn't mean it's true. Doesn't mean they're lying, but it doesn't mean it's true.

To be taken seriously, you need physical evidence that can be examined at leisure by skeptical scientists: a scraping of the whole ship, and the discovery that it contains isotopic ratios that aren't present on earth, chemical elements from the so-called island of stability, very heavy elements that don't exist on earth. Or material of absolutely bizarre properties of many sorts -- electrical conductivity or ductility. There are many things like that that would instantly give serious credence to an account.

But there's no scrapings, no interior photographs, no filched page from the captain's log book. All there are are stories. There are instances of disturbed soil, but I can disturb soil with a shovel. There are instances of people claiming to flash lights at UFOs and the UFOs flash back. But, pilots of airplanes can also flash back, especially if they think it would be a good joke to play on the UFO enthusiast. So, that does not constitute good evidence.

And, a very interesting example of this sort of thing is the so-called crop circles in England in which wheat and rye and other grains -- these beautiful immense circles appeared and then -- this was in the 70's and 80's -- and then over progressive years, more and more complex geometries. And there were lots of people who said that these were made by UFOs that were landing and that it was too complex or too highly mathematical to be a hoax.

And it turns out that two blokes in Southern England, at their regular bar one night, thought it would be a good idea to make a kind of hoax to see if they could lure in UFO enthusiasts. And they succeeded every time--every time an explanation was proferred: a peculiar kind of wind, they then made another one which contradicted that hypothesis. And they were very pleased when it was said that no human intelligence could do this. That gave them great satisfaction. And for 15 years, they succeeded in these nocturnal expeditions using rope and board -- all the technology they needed.

And in their 60's, they finally confessed to the press with a demonstration of how it was done. And, of course, the confession received very little play in the media. And the claims of alien influence had received prominent exposure.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/aliens/carlsagan.html

The world needs more Carl Sagans.

Actually I didn't specify "crazymikey" in that passage, I'm referring to pseudoscience proponents in general. So don't get to full of yourself :)

But if you can successfully demonstrate any use of logical fallacy on my part, I'll revise that specific position (assuming that you can show me the correct logic that the fallacy assumed in the first place).

Well crazy, if you want alien abductions out of pseudoscience you could go and find some evidence that it occurs. You'd be the most famous person on Earth!


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/aliens/carlsagan.html

The world needs more Carl Sagans.

Repo Man, please do not digress. While I would love to shower you with mountains of evidence, and you can deny you ever got the shower. This thread is NOT about that.

And be assured, UFO abductions is not the only topic that comprises "Psuedoscience"

You never did answer my question. What do you have to lose, if the name is changed to something more appropriate, PARANORMAL, or ALTERNATIVE sciences?

this is not really a public issue, it's my feedback, and complaint, which is the criterium of this particular forum.

Fine. Whatever. I'm not going to do anything about it.

That's alright Porfiery. I was just thinking of this is as an intelligent forum, and expecting it to reason. I guess it's not so intelligent after all. Anyway, they do have actual intelligent forums online, and I participate at them too, so it's not biggie, if this is primitive. Normally I would go at this point, but there are some intelligent people here, that I enjoy discussing with, and I won't let the collective unintelligence of this pseudo-forum come in the way of that.

Thank you anyway.

'pseudo-forum'
Well that settles it. He really doesn't know what pseudo means.

u guys stop picking at each other geez.

i agree that naming it psuedo kind of shuts it off from being taken seriously, and i think this is what mikey is trying to say.

we are at a crucial time in human history, where technology and ideas and theories are transforming~ and where sci-fi is actually coming closer to non-fiction.

THIS is the main point- the anomalies and wild theories of black hole strings and parrallel universe, or higher dimensions NEED to be discussed, we need to examine every aspect. only by taking into consideration all of you options can u really make a full decision and know u had all the cards to choose from.

thats my view on this.
and naming it Alternative Science doesnt sound to bad.

when i got here, i knew i belonged in psuedoscience, this was because i knew what the word meant.
but after a few posts, i was lashed at with pure ridicule, and i realized this is partially because of the forum i was posting in. and thats where i realized that no one will take anything written in psuedoscience seriously, because before they even step inside the door, they have the idea that anything said there is Fake.

i hope this helps you guys see what we go thru when trying to bring controversial topics to the table.
we just want to discuss things and share views, possibly find some answers to some everlasting mysteries and phenomena and etc.

just my 2 cents

'pseudo-forum'
Well that settles it. He really doesn't know what pseudo means.

Ok, psuedo, I mean Persol. You asked for it, and I'm going to give it to: You are a rude and obnoxious person, and self-righteous and self-centered. You're the fool, who does you understand, that he's nothing more than a primitive ape, a cosmic joke, that will just cease to exist soon. Don't you understand how little you matter to everyone else, but yourself. Don't you understand how were all the same, but just born in different conditions, and those conditions have moulded our lives. If anything, you ignorant fool, you should learn to accept others and work collectively, because you share the common demnominator of humanity. This naive reality you have fabricated for yourself, in which the universe revolves around you, in which your convinctions and achivements are absolute, is the same reality almost all of us percieve, yes even those, who you ridicule. Just like you will reject what I'm saying to you, so will they.

I will tell you straight, you do not matter to me, you're opinions are stupid, I think you are a conceited, good for nothing, close-minded delusional. It's unfortunate, because, you have absolutely no meaning in your life, you're a waste of space, and you are so self-absorbed, that you cannot think about others for once. This is why your life is useless, and this is why the human species collectively is primitive.

Can you even begin to understand this universe you inhabit? You think you do, don't you, by the way of what you have been force-fed in school and made to parrot. That is correct, you're intelligence is analogous to a parrot. You think you know, yet you don't even know what knowledge is. Do you know why you are here? What is your purpose? You don't care do you? Because you are limited by your small mind. This universe transcends you, far beyond you, that you cannot even hope to concieve, it's so mysterious, perplexing and multilayered, that anything you imagine could happen, and anything you couldn't imagine, could happen too, and even the most cutting edge physics attests to this - yet you think you know it? You're a fool, nothing less. All you are good for, is leaching of the efforts of good and honest people(e.g. Marie Curie, discovered Radium, that benefited us immensely, yet she herself was shunned by socieity.) In fact, many innovators, scientists, have been shunned by socieity in their lifetime, and once they are dead, socieity prospers on their hardwork. You are one of those. Leaching of what has been established, and shunning what has not been established. You're simply pathetic, and it's always been people like you, who have held us back from advancing, and if you die anytime soon, it won't be a loss to anyone.

I am not writing this to insult you. I am writing to give you a wake-up call. You need to wake up, and see life objectively, and learn to accept others. How productive would this society be, if people helped each other. That is not happening, because of people like you. Here you are, trying to make others look bad. And within the time you finish spewing your nonsense, a few hundred malnourished children have starved to death in a 3rd world country. You don't care, because you have a small-mind, and you live in a box of a world.

You know when they say Aliens are abducting us, and treating us like animals, wether that is true or not, just imagine if there was a species more advanced than us, that is probably how they'll see us.
We think we are the most intelligent, and the most important, and everything else is inferior. It's a vicious cycle really; nature has prepared a greater force for everything, and we are only human, and if something was above us, it would, and should, treat us, like we treat less intelligent organisms. Natural justice.

Don't take anything for granted, your life, or even your existence. If you want to do anything, then help others. When people start helping each other, this society will advance, and it's the design of evolution too, to transition to the super-intelligent social organism. There is nothing more I want to say to you, or hear from you. Thanks for reading, I hope somewhere in that clutter in your head, this will go through.

Btw Psuedo means - False or counterfeit; fake.http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=pseudo

u guys stop picking at each other geez.

i agree that naming it psuedo kind of shuts it off from being taken seriously, and i think this is what mikey is trying to say.

we are at a crucial time in human history, where technology and ideas and theories are transforming~ and where sci-fi is actually coming closer to non-fiction.

THIS is the main point- the anomalies and wild theories of black hole strings and parrallel universe, or higher dimensions NEED to be discussed, we need to examine every aspect. only by taking into consideration all of you options can u really make a full decision and know u had all the cards to choose from.

thats my view on this.
and naming it Alternative Science doesnt sound to bad.

when i got here, i knew i belonged in psuedoscience, this was because i knew what the word meant.
but after a few posts, i was lashed at with pure ridicule, and i realized this is partially because of the forum i was posting in. and thats where i realized that no one will take anything written in psuedoscience seriously, because before they even step inside the door, they have the idea that anything said there is Fake.

i hope this helps you guys see what we go thru when trying to bring controversial topics to the table.
we just want to discuss things and share views, possibly find some answers to some everlasting mysteries and phenomena and etc.

just my 2 cents

Thanks Zonabi, for that rare intelligent insight that is rare to find in this "intelligent community" However, it's futile, the forum was actually created for the purpose, of making a FAKE science channel, and these small-minded people, want it called that, because they are intimidated by it. There won't be a change here, I can see that already, it's like asking for a change in a backwards community - you'll just be wasting your time.

Now THAT was funny. In the end though, it looks like you figured out what pseudo means - 'false or counterfeit'. This is quite obviously not a 'fake/conterfeit forum'.

The rest was just hilarious propaganda, much like your posts. It basically comes down to "The world is bigger then you think, but I have no proof." Funny, that's what those who were abducted by demons said.

More to the point, the majority of the posts in the pseudoscience forum don't contain much logic, let alone science. You're threads also fall into this category. Where was there any science in there? I didn't see it.

And no, peudscience is sometimes taken seriously... just not much. Somebody posted awhile ago about radar signatures. It turned out to be a somewhat scientific discussion. What you have been posting though is not science.

Otherwise, your post was an entertaining ad hom attack... which kept up your habit of no presenting any science.

Ozymadias, calling the proponents of alternative science, "morons" is not very mature or intelligent, in fact it's quite moronic itself. Thank you for correcting my spelling

So? :)

By the way, it's Ozymandias. Not Ozymadias. ;)

Thanks for correcting me again Ozy, but I corrected myself before the final version too, Ozymoronos ;)

Ohh! The sting of your insults! The terrible slice of your witty jibe! No more, I beg you! I can't stand this terrible emotional distress! ;)

Anyways, I think this thread might as well be closed / deleted, because of ...

Fine. Whatever. I'm not going to do anything about it.