I'm not one for believing in prophecies usually but this is impressive.

“When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

(Padma Sambhava, eighth-century Indian guru and founder of the first Tibetan monastry)

How one earth did he come to write that? It must have been gibberish in eighth-century terms.

Any thoughts? Or anyone got any more?

Not trying to be stupid, but what does it mean? I mean I understand everything up until the red faced people.

Also, people gain knowledge and become smarter when they meditate, it's been proven. The knowledge could've come from anyone's or anyones' mind if the theory is correct that all conscious minds are connected...

Facinating prediction, but what ( sorry for my ignorance on the subject) is Dharma and who are the red faced people?
First I thought of native americans, but they aren't really red, they are brown, so maybe he was refering to people with fair complexion, whos faces get very red from both sun and cold.

I don't know any more than you do but I take iron birds to be planes and horses on wheels to be cars and trains etc. Red faced people (from an asian perspective) would be Europeans/Americans (white folk) and the scattering would be due to the Chinese invasion of Tibet and persecution of Buddhists.

This may not be right but it's all a hell of a coincidence. What could someone be doing writing about iron birds and horseless carriages in the eighth century?

i would ask what is the authority of the origin of the prophecy. anyone who was online post-9/11 remembers the supposed nostradamus prophecy, which of course was fake.

by the way. dharma is the teaching of the buddha. buddhism is dharma. to be a buddhist is to take refuge in the dharma. put simply, it is the teaching of the 4 noble truths, the noble 8-fold path, and other such basic, fundamental precepts to buddhism.

:m: peace :m:

Originally posted by buddhafish
[B]i would ask what is the authority of the origin of the prophecy. anyone who was online post-9/11 remembers the supposed nostradamus prophecy, which of course was fake.
Yes, I should have said. I got it second hand from Lama Suryadas ‘Awakening the Budha Within’.

no kidding? i own that book.. which page? i'd like to check it out. :)

:m: peace :m:

Sorry, don't know. I borrowed it and it's gone back. I kept a note of the words but not the page number. It stood out because it's the first time I've heard of Buddhists making prophecies. It's definitely in there. (I've an idea it could be a chapter heading because I don't remember him discussing it in the text).

When the iron bird flies, the red-robed people of the East who have lost their land will appear, and the two brothers from across the great ocean will be reunited.

- from the Book of Hopi


http://www.shiftjournal.com/bits/hopi.html

Two brothers from across the sea? Dangit, this post is waay too cryptic for me...

Very interesting link, though, spookz...

Originally posted by Canute
I'm not one for believing in prophecies usually but this is impressive.

“When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

(Padma Sambhava, eighth-century Indian guru and founder of the first Tibetan monastry)

How one earth did he come to write that? It must have been gibberish in eighth-century terms.

Any thoughts? Or anyone got any more?

Thats VERY cool. O_O

Let me get a hand in interpretating it like every proper individual trying to decipher a code...

Iron bird= something that flies obviously made of iron.

ehhhhh. waitaminute....this has already been past.
It has been done and over with.

I just really love these parables though.

Compare this


“When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

(Padma Sambhava, eighth-century Indian guru and founder of the
first Tibetan monastry)

With this


"When the iron bird flies, the red-robed people of the East who have lost their land will appear, and the two brothers from across the great ocean will be reunited."

- from the Book of Hopi


Why are they similar? How can two seemingly different cultures from opposite sides of earth predict similar things?

If you went straight through the Hopi Reservation to the other side of the world, you would come out in Tibet (and vice-versa). The Tibetan word for sun is the Hopi word for moon, and the Hopi word for sun is the Tibetan word for moon. Is this a coincidence?
Or do these cultures come from the same thing?

If I understand correctly, these two prophecies are prophecizing each other. The Tibetan prophecy says that in the age of airplanes and cars, The Tibetan people will be scattered all around the world in small numbers and the Dharma come to the land of the Native Americans (red faced people).

The Hopi prophecy says that in the age of airplanes, the native american-looking (red-robed) of Asia (the east) who have lost their land will reunite with their brothers.

When the Dharma visited the Hopi people , the Hopi's first words were "Welcome Home". How did this culture clash happen? Though the Hopi and Navoja people are geographically close, their cultures are strikingly different. Yet, the Hopi and Tibetan cultures seem to have a striking similarity, not only in prophecies, but also in language. Did the Native Americans come from the east or vice-versa?

Can anyone explain this? This is fascinating..

no kidding! too many coincidences for comfort.

:m: that which can be explored, should be explored :m:

Originally posted by VitalOne If you went straight through the Hopi Reservation to the other side of the world, you would come out in Tibet (and vice-versa).

i do take issue with this.. i assume by what you say, you mean basically drilling a hole directly through the sphere of the earth to the geographically opposite side of the planet.. hopi sacred grounds are in arizona, from what i saw. when i dug this hole, i ended up in the middle of the ocean, near antarctica, south of mauritius (island off the east coast of africa).

digging a hole through the earth from tibet landed me deep in the south pacific, 2000km west of chile.

although, it really means nothing in relation to the story / prophecy itself.

:m: that which can be explored, should be explored :m:

Originally posted by VitalOne
[B]The Tibetan word for sun is the Hopi word for moon, and the Hopi word for sun is the Tibetan word for moon. Is this a coincidence?
That's very interesting. It seems like an unlikely one


When the Dharma visited the Hopi people , the Hopi's first words were "Welcome Home".
What does this mean exactly? Are you talking about the first contact between the Hopi people and Buddhism?

Do you have a bit more info. about Hopi culture?

wilshire hotel, los angeles 1979, grandfather david says to the dalai lama, "welcome home"

coming down to earth (http://www.swcp.com/~eltiki/homie_page/articles/peblotibet.html)

shooting off into space (http://channels.vandemataram.com/vindex.jsp?sno=287)

pueblo factoids (http://www.dragonflydream.com/PuebloIndians.html)

When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the World, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red-faced people.

-- Padma Sambhava, Eighth-Century Indian Guru and Founder of the First Tibetan Monastery

Awakening the Buddha Within, p. 23

it goes on to say that the tibetan people consider him to be the second buddha, and fully enlightened.

:m: baloney detection kit (http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/carlsagan/baloney.html) :m:

Originally posted by Canute
That's very interesting. It seems like an unlikely one


What does this mean exactly? Are you talking about the first contact between the Hopi people and Buddhism?

Do you have a bit more info. about Hopi culture?

When the Dharma visited the Hopi people, the Hopi peoples' first words were "Welcome Home". I don't have much information about the Hopi culture but it seems that they originated from Southeast asia.

Would anyone like to recommend to me a good introduction to Buddhism? As far as literature, etc.

Thanks.

countless resources are available in the ebook section at buddhanet.net (http://www.buddhanet.net/). as far as actual books, the art of happiness by the dalai lama is great.. well anything by the dalai lama for that matter. lama surya das does a good job of translating the meanings into plain english, and one of my favourite books is the quantum and the lotus by matthieu ricard, which is a dialogue between a man who is currently an astrophysicist, and was born buddhist, and a man who obtained his doctorate in i think bio-chemistry then went on to become a buddhist monk.

:m: that which can be explored, should be explored :m:

Thanks.

how interesting,
old prophecies capture our imagination
dead teachings preoccupy our minds
useless knowledge invades the thoughts
debate the right and wrong of things
the tao still blows on
outside closed windows.

Very good spidergoat. Your own?

These prophesies, I'm surprised those people wrote in English.

.... What? The original texts were NOT in English? I see... who translated them, then, and when? Anybody here able to check with the original text to see if the translation is valid?

(that was the problem with the Nostradamus "prophesies": VERY creative translation.)

:bugeye: Hans :bugeye:

“When the iron eagle flies, and horses run on wheels,...

Am I the only one who thinks that an 8th century Tibetan monk would probably not look at a car and think that it was a horse with wheels?

Replace that "horses run on wheels" with "people careen around in bathtubs with wheels" and it'll sound a little more reasonable to me... car don't look much like a horse, even if you've never seen a car.

you miss the point i think
the horse represents transportation (on legs)
the transportation is then envisioned to have wheels

Seems ambiguous to me... when someone says "When things move around and a guy goes to another guy, then money will be spent," or something like that, why is it supposed to impress?

I'm sure I could make something up that would come true in the future, if I'm allowed to be that vague.

How about this:

"In the age of disenchantment, lights in the sky and lights on the ground will presage the dragon moving its tail, and all the leaders of men will hide their eyes."

This could mean anything. ANYTHING.

I think you're missing the point. Yes, the statement was imprecise. However whatever precision it has is rather extraordinary. (And precision is tricky when the correct words don't even exist yet).

Predicting future technology is a commonplace activity these days. But even attempting it is an odd thing to do in the eighth century.

Nobody is trying to say that this prophecy/science fiction proves anything. The question is just interesting. What could he have meant by his words, and where did the words come from, considering that at the time they wouldn't have made any sense, (unlike your attempt).

Perhaps cars, aeroplanes and the creation of the Tibetan diaspora is all just a quirky coincidence. However the question of what he meant by his curious words still remains.

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
Am I the only one who thinks that an 8th century Tibetan monk would probably not look at a car and think that it was a horse with wheels?

On the other hand, locomotives were referred to as "Iron Horses"?
They don't look at all like horses made of iron, do they?

Originally posted by VitalOne
Why are they similar? How can two seemingly different cultures from opposite sides of earth predict similar things?

Traveling?
All mankind is believed, by many Anthropologists and Archaeologists, to have origins in the same relatively confined area of Africa.
There is evidence of European settlers in Ancient China.
It is widely believed that "Native Americans" settled here from Europe traveling through Alaska.
There is evidence suggesting that the Phonecians were global sea-farers and explorers before Ancient Egypt and perhaps responsible for some of the uncanny similarities in language, culture and religions of ancient civilizations.

Both prophecies could have been written in tandem when some the ancient Tibetans left to migrate to the West (America) (although, if one were to leave Tibet to migrate to America by foot they would be heading East).

I will admit that I question the accuracy of the translation as well, but I doubt that it was contrived to make the two sound similar, and the "prophecies" may have some real validity.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels”

"When the iron bird flies"

It doesn't have to specifically refer to a "vision" of an airplane or an automobile.
It could very well be a simple idea referring to when mechanical inventions make traveling across great distances of land faster and easier than riding horseback and when man has invented machines that will allow him to fly.

and the two brothers from across the great ocean will be reunited."

That obviously implies that the Hopi & Tibetan ARE somehow closely related, but how is this possible? Aren't they two different races of human beings, entirely and on very different ends of the earth? Does anybody know anything about the history of human migrations... that might explain the connection. The Native Americans did after all, cross into the New World thru the Straigt of something (forgot) that was connected to what is now Russia, which is near Tibet. But why only the Hopi & the Tibet then? Why not all Native Americans & the Tibet.

I think this whole situation is so fascinating.

This is very interesting. I really want to know the person who made the translation. This also means that those people could look in to the future? But then why didnt they take advantage of this great gift? Doesn't man always seek power Buddhist or not Buddhist. Should i really believe that Buddhist people dont seek power but spirituality?

Originally posted by Overdose
This is very interesting. I really want to know the person who made the translation. This also means that those people could look in to the future? But then why didnt they take advantage of this great gift? Doesn't man always seek power Buddhist or not Buddhist. Should i really believe that Buddhist people dont seek power but spirituality?
Buddhists don't seek either in many senses of the words, but they can mean different things to different people. Buddhism is often described (by Buddhists) as 'the serious pursuit of happiness'. But that needs a lot of unpacking.

Originally posted by VitalOne How can two seemingly different cultures from opposite sides of earth predict similar things?Actually, this happens all the time. Look at the commonalities in our mythologies. Virgin birth, human child raised by wolves, man dies and comes back to life, big flood wipes out all life, bird dies and is reborn in a fire, weeping woman walks the streets every night, snake sets us on a path of eternal damnation.

Not every culture has every one of these myths, but they are incredibly common.

Jung calls them "archetypes" and the whole paradigm is the "collective unconscious."

Jung didn't explain how they got inside us, he was a pragmatist and just pointed them out so we could use them to figure ourselves out, and also to let us know that we really are all brothers and sisters.

It could be a coincidence of the wiring in our synapses, just a fluke of evolution. It could be that archetypes help us cope better so they are a survival trait and the people without them died out. In either of those cases it means that they've been with us since we were one tribe living in Africa. If you're religious, you can put any interpretation you want on these things, although Jung himself was rather hostile to the patriarchal, monotheistic religions of the Age of Civilizaiton.

Originally posted by miss khan
That obviously implies that the Hopi & Tibetans ARE somehow closely related, but how is this possible? Aren't they two different races of human beings, entirely and on very different ends of the earth? Does anybody know anything about the history of human migrations... that might explain the connection. The Native Americans did after all, cross into the New World thru the Bering Strait that was connected to what is now Russia, which is near Tibet. But why only the Hopi & the Tibet then? Why not all Native Americans & Tibet?You're pretty close. The indigenous peoples of the New World are in fact of Mongoloid stock, meaning close relatives of the East Asians. They branched off quite a while ago, before their cousins who stayed home developed the epicanthic eye folds that to us define "Oriental," but DNA says they're the same gene pool.

The first wave of immigrants, the Athabascans, migrated across the Bering Land Bridge (it was the Ice Age then so sea level was much lower) around 14000 BCE. Some think they sailed over in boats, hugging the coastline, a few thousand years earlier but it doesn't change the results any. Their point of origin has been zoomed down to a fairly small area in what is now Mongolia. They populated the entire hemisphere. The Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, Mohawks, Sioux, most of the people in the New World are of Athabascan descent.

Then around 4000 BCE the second wave came -- same gene pool, and actually a fairly close starting point in Mongolia. They're called the Na-Dene. They found the hemisphere fairly well populated and couldn't make much headway. They displaced the people who were living west of the Rockies (which by the way means that the Indians who now live in Washington State cannot possibly be the descendants of "Kennewick Man," if you've been following that controversy) and became the Chumash and Tlingit and most of the tribes of the western US and Canada.

The last wave, the Eskimo-Aleut, arrived around 2000 BCE. Fortunately for them they were not from nice warm Mongolia, they were used to living in the Arctic Zone, because that's the only place that was left for them to settle. Their roots to their cousins in northern Siberia are still very obvious, in language and customs. They are an indigenous people who has come very close to circling the globe, although admittedly at a latitude where that's a pretty small circle. The Asian branch runs practically up to the eastern border of Finland, and the American branch has settled Greenland. Nothing separating them except the Scandinavian countries!

So this explains how the Tibetans, who are closely related to the Chinese, can have a common mythology with the Indians. (If you didn't buy my previous post.)

But actually it gets better.

Recent research suggests that there are not a whole bunch of language families. We've seen the number of families shrink over the past hundred years, as they found relationships such as the one that unites Mongolian, Turkish, Hungarian, and Finnish into one family. But now, using massively parallel computer processing to analyze linguistic patterns that could never be done manually, they're finding amazing and very widespread similarities between languages, when you adjust for sound shifts that a thousand computers can track. They've already joined the Indo-European family to the one I described above and call it the Eurasiatic family.

But it keeps getting better. They're tracing words from Sino-Tibetan, Semitic, Dravidian, Malayo-Polynesian, and other families all back to a common source. It looks very much like language sprang up in Africa when we were all still living there, and all human languages are descended from a single ancestor.

When you think about it, it makes sense. What gave humans the ability to suddenly become so successful that they virtually exploded out of Africa into every climate zone and every ecosystem? Perhaps the ability to communicate!

So the answer to your question could be both more complicated and more simple than you expected. It's looking like all of our migration paths can be tracked back in tribal groups to our African ancestors, who were already talking. Language was only invented once, not multiple times. All human languages are related.

I'm jumping the gun, they've really only got it narrowed down to two families as of right now. But geeze, that's an amazing leap from the dozens of families that we used to believe in.

We really are all brothers and sisters. It's a shame we can't act like it!

To clear up a couple of nits:

Someone asked why the Navajo and the Hopi don't seem to be closely related. The reason is that they aren't. Migrations in the New World led people on long Treks. One of those tribes is a member of the Na-Dene people, and the other is Athabascan. Their ancestors arrived ten thousand years apart, so their cultures are much different. I can't for the life of me remember which is which. I know that the Utes are related to the Aztecs and are therefore Athabascans living in Na-Dene territory, but I don't know whether it's the Navajos and Hopis that are in the "wrong place."

And the concept of "red faces" came up. We've all been brainwashed into such a state of political correctness that we've forgotten that the early Americans called the Indians "red." It's OK, because many of them call themselves that. (Just like it's really OK to call them Indians. I've never met one who didn't sneer at the term "native American," because, as they point out, I'm a native American because I was born in Chicago but I sure as hell ain't no Indian!) In one of their legends, they identify four races of people: red, yellow, brown, and white. This legend goes back at least two thousand years, long before Columbus or Leif Erikson came over with their white skins. So who are they talking about? Could this be a really ancient legend they brought over from Asia sixteen thousand years ago???

Great post. I didn't realise that much was known.

I take 'red faced' people to mean white folks, but who knows.

Fraggle rocker-
I really dont buy into jung's collective unconcious, from what little I know of it thru Psych 101, but your second post was very helpful. Thanks :)

[QUOTE=Canute]Predicting future technology is a commonplace activity these days. But even attempting it is an odd thing to do in the eighth century.
QUOTE]
How do you know it was odd in the eighth century?

Let's have some fun with this...


"In the age of disenchantment, lights in the sky and lights on the ground will presage the dragon moving its tail, and all the leaders of men will hide their eyes."

This could mean anything. ANYTHING.

Now, let's connect a few dots...
"In the age of disenchantment, THE TIME WE ARE CURRENTLY IN, IN WHICH WARNINGS ARE BEING FULFILLED SIGNALLING THE POSSIBLE END OF TIME, lights in the sky, LIGHTS FROM PLANES OR IRON BIRDS, and lights on the ground, LIGHTS FROM CARS, TRAINS, BIKES OR IRON HORSES, will presage the dragon moving its tail, AMERICA WAKING FROM A SLUMBER (UPON THE MEETING/VISITATION PREVIOUSLY TALKED ABOUT), and all the leaders of men will hide thier eyes IN FEAR OF THE FORETOLD END OF TIMES, DUE TO THE CULMINATION OF THE COMPLETION OF THE WARNINGS AND PROPHECIES."

P.S. I always thought an iron horse was a bike

It could be interpreted either way..as someone said a few posts up, I think 'horse' just symbolizes transportation. A bike could be an 'iron horse on wheels,' -- it's all up to your inferration.

Fraggle rocker-
I really dont buy into jung's collective unconcious, from what little I know of it thru Psych 101, but your second post was very helpful. Thanks :)

Neither did I, but an article that was posted on this site has made me, at least, revisit the idea and reconsider my immediate response of rejecting it out of the box.

An excerpt:

This part of our story will take us to one of the most controversial frontiers of current science, although it actually starts back in 1920 when W. McDougall, a biologist at Harvard, began an experiment to see if animals (in this case white rats) could inherit learning. The procedure was to teach the rats a simple task (avoiding a lighted exit), record how fast they learned, breed another generation, teach them the same task, and see how their rate of learning compared with their elders. He carried the experiment through 34 generations and found that, indeed, each generation learned faster in flat contradiction to the usual Darwinian assumptions about heredity. Such a result naturally raised controversy, and similar experiments were run to prove or disprove the result. The last of these was done by W.E. Agar at Melbourne over a period of 20 years ending in 1954. Using the same general breed of rats, he found the same pattern of results that McDougall had but in addition he found that untrained rats used as a control group also learned faster in each new generation. (Curiously, he also found that his first generation of rats started at the same rate of learning as McDougall's last generation.) No one had a good explanation for why both trained and untrained should be learning faster, but since this result did not support the idea that learning was inherited, the biology community breathed a sigh of relief and considered the matter closed.
Article (http://twm.co.nz/shel_morfields.htm)

I don't necessarily agree with the author's "Memory And Morphogenetic Fields" interpretation of the experimental results, but the results themselves, at the very least, lend some validity to Jung's "Collective Unconcious" theory.

Check out this link for how Tibetans travelled to America....

http://groups.msn.com/IndiaWin/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=18749&LastModified=4675457878163112126&all_topics=1

It's also interesting when you think of the fact that Columbus himself mistook AMerica for India.

kmguru, I think that many other people have been to America before Columbus. Leif Erickson comes to mind, and I think some Chinese also made it there. I don't doubt that Tibetans could have also made it there, though my internet is spazzing out right now and I can't check the link. Alas.

I was watching the discovery channel one time and they were talking about humans migrating to America via the bering strait 40,000 years ago.

BTW: there is a bering strait group that wants to build a tunnel at the cost of I think $6 billion for trade and commerce which could be cheaper than through ships.

But that's a lonnnng time ago -- I meant a bit more recent discovery than 40,000 years.

kmguru, I think that many other people have been to America before Columbus. Leif Erickson comes to mind, and I think some Chinese also made it there. I don't doubt that Tibetans could have also made it there, though my internet is spazzing out right now and I can't check the link. Alas.
America was not uninhabited when Columbus arrived.

This thread is really interesting to me.
My father is Tibetan and my mother is part Irish part arab (berber). I have been amongst many native mexicans , columbians and "mestizo"(mix of native american and european) people of south america and you wouldnt be able to tell me apart infact i look more south american than many south americans . The amount of times i have been spoke to in spanish is amazing. I never know what to say!
then i look at some of the "purer" native americans i have seen (andes natives) and look at some of my tibetan family members and friends in nepal and india and you would not be able to tell the difference no matter how hard you tried.

I would love to have my dna tested and see if indeed we do share the same recent ancestors (10000 to 1000 years). I also have a strange feeling of brotherhood amongst mestizo and native american people which is more than just skin deep and i cannot explain.

The prophecy of guru rimpoche( padasambhava) and the hopi people is so similar i firmly believe tibetans and native americans are bruthers. I just look at it this way - the difference being the same as an african american in the usa and an african in lets say nigeria. the similarities in the ancient bon-po religion of tibet(shamanism) before buddhism and native american religion is striking. Almost like catholics and protestants- they bothworship nature, the sun, moon, earth spirits and animal spirits. If you study these two ancient religions the similarities are undeniable.

my 2 cents

blessings

Welcome malaki to sciforums.

If one vists India from North to South and East to west, you will find various races blended together but remain certain features that are so distinct that same features can be found in New Mexico, Mexico South America and of course Africa. Some of the features can be seen in scandinavian countries except the skin color or absense there of.

So, wherever and whenever civilization started, they must have started in one major area and they moved out to all over the world many thousand years ago to as recent as Buddha's time 600 BC or 100 AD....

Thanks bruther blessings 2 u.
i have hard time finding a senseof identity in india even amongst "pure" tibetans who do not consder me a pure tibetan but amongst south americans i am considered a bruther. this is really strange to me perhaps it is also the moorish blood on my mothers side.
I knwo race is unimportant for we are all made of the earth imo but it is reassuring to me to have a sense of identity among the mestizo people. I grew up in india and was refereed to as "gurkha" and "watchman" since an early age and also not considered a "pure" or "true" tibetan amongst family members. Its like meeting bruthers from other mothers.

India is held in awe by mnay western people for its spirtuality but it is one of the most "racist" nations on earth i assure you. it has several thousand years of spiritual wealth but materialism has corrupted it just go to bombay and you will see.only amongs a few true sages do these ancient truths still survive. The sanata dharma as they call it the true and first religion. I am lucky thanks to god to have found a great guru. her holiness amma. for which i am ever gratefull. sorry i am rambling on off topic.

but anyway blessings to all
and may god, happiness and truth be youre life.

This is kinda relevant: http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/online%20articles/tibet%20tibet.htm

Good thread.

There's an interesting Hopi legend about the day the Earth stopped spinning and rotated the other way...haven't verified this.

I used to get emails from Hopi Elders: The time is approaching. Where is your garden? Where is your water? type of thing....there's a lot in this prophecy malarky...will send tales soon.

i have hard time finding a senseof identity in india even amongst "pure" tibetans ....

It really does not matter ...for ...

"You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should." - Desiderata

When I get lightly depressed and have difficulty placing myself in this Universe, I listen to that song which centers me more than any slokas, chants, recitals out there....

I'm not one for believing in prophecies usually but this is impressive.

“When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

(Padma Sambhava, eighth-century Indian guru and founder of the first Tibetan monastry)

How one earth did he come to write that? It must have been gibberish in eighth-century terms.

Any thoughts? Or anyone got any more?

not all prophecies are so difficult to comprehend

SB 12.3.32: Cities will be dominated by thieves, the Vedas will be contaminated by speculative interpretations of atheists, political leaders will virtually consume the citizens, and the so-called priests and intellectuals will be devotees of their bellies and genitals.

:(

When one is tuned into the Spirit, one can hear ANYTHING. You might not know what the words even mean, or you can ask for meaning later and you will probably get it. The red faced man is American Indian. Padmasambhava is very special.

When one is tuned into the Spirit, one can hear ANYTHING. You might not know what the words even mean, or you can ask for meaning later and you will probably get it. The red faced man is American Indian. Padmasambhava is very special.
Terry has had the experience that you speak of


http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mne0082l.jpg

“When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

Let me attempt to translate using collective human symbolism. A bird in symbolism is similar to an intuition. Blue sky research is not fully tangible. The theory is in the air or mind, but not yet connected to tangible knowledge.

The metal iron has a connection to war (Mars). The iron age was about a new metal for swords and weapons that could slice through bronze. Together, an intuition of war or conflict which is not yet tangible, But it is in the air when the bird flies.

The horse is symbolic of our animal side or instincts. Horses symbolize instincts that are domesticated and under the control of a rider (will). The wheel is a symbol of the inner self, it is round, self contained and it radiates from a center to the perimeter or conscious mind. Picture an almost instinctive drive, which pushes the will to push their instincts. What comes to mind is a skill warrior with complete body control who is now unconsciously driven. The warrior senses war and is about to ignite his armies.

The Tibetan people scattered like ants across the world seems to suggest smallness and dissociation with respect to the enemy they will face. The horse on the wheel is very powerful.

The Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people; The face is sort of the mask for the conscious mind. It is connected to the persona. The color red has to do with emotions. The red faced people would wear their feelings on their face. Together, eastern people are often stoic. But the dissociation of their culture will a different type of persona with emotions.

I looked up this after i finished to test myself;


n the 7th and 8th centuries, under Srong-btsan sgam-po and his successors, Tibet is a unified kingdom exercising power over an area well beyond the Tibetan plateau, including important regions on the Silk Road such as Kashgar and Khotan. In 763 a Tibetan army even invades T'ang China and briefly captures the capital at Xi'an.

In subsequent centuries Tibet is more often a collection of small independent kingdoms, restricted to their own high plateau. They regard their large neighbour to the east with wary suspicion. A brief exception occurs in the 13th century, when a Tibetan link with the Mongol emperors of China brings Tibet formally within the Chinese empire.

Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa71#ixzz1nA7Roqd 2

I learned collective human symbolism by reading the collective works of Carl Jung. He taught about the collective unconscious and tried to prove his thesis by showing how certain symbolic types are common to all culture,s even those who never had any direct contact. This is because the symbolism is generated by the collective unconscious, which is turn, is based on human DNA. The DNA aspect I threw in.

Collective human symbolism is based on types and not specifics. There is more than one way to symbolize the same thing. The eastern specific would be different from western specific, but since both use the same types (archetypes), translation is similar.

After reading about half the books of Jung and learning a lot about collective human symbolism, the next step for me, was to see if I could gain my own direct data from my own unconscious mind. If he was correct I thought since I am human I should be able to generate data. It seemed logical and would give me proof. I was about 90% convinced but needed hard data.

This was done initially by remembering and recording dreams and then analyzing them as best I could. What I found is after a few months, the characters of my dreams began to change away from objects and people in my direct world, into collective symbols. Instead of a female you may have noticed in passing ,now it was a queen. The idea for the data collection, was to be as conscious as I could in dreams, so I could notice as much detail as possible.

After a few more months an effect called synchronicity or meaningful coincidence also began to occur. I remember one week I would have dreams of symbols, I never saw before, and then the next day read about them in the Jung book I was reading, right where I had left off, but had not yet read. The normal cause and effect was backwards with respect first dream symbols and then obscure book symbols. This was a cool experience but hard to explain.

The most memorable collective unconscious synchronicity was a nightmare I had with some intense symbols that were very scary. I woke myself up only to see the walls of my room breathing. I was half awake and still half in the dream. My mind and body appeared to dissociate, with my body, in shear terror, but my mind was more calm still trying to observe data. But soon my body was distracting my mind with the fear. As an analogy, I was like a rider on a horse, with my horse (body) wanting to run away but the rider (mind) trying to keep him there. I was able to calm my animal body with a prayer. Irrational events called for irrational measures. This is when I realized I had a sword (reason) and shield (prayer) and was not afraid. I went back to sleep, to see how it ended, but nothing more was added.

The next day I felt like my personality had been shattered. I walked in this gray emotionless funk for days. That first morning a large colorful beetle landed over my front door. He was real but also a synchronistic symbol. As a symbol he would represent a symbol of protection so nothing could enter my house. He stayed over my doors for days until my head cleared, then I saw him fly away. After that I was not afraid to go deeper. The collective unconscious had become inside out and was touching the natural world. Weird but good data.

If there were such a thing as prophecy, that is, if the psychics really knew their back passages from a hole in the ground, how is it that none forsaw 9/11? And if any of them claim that they did, then why did they not warn anybody? :confused:

Prophecy: Jesus will come in my lifetime, being a college student, and the world will see its first world-wide revolution uniting the nations under a single man...

Prophecy: people will forever attribute utterances from the past to present events, and present and past utterances to their expectations about events in the future, and they will do so with a presumption that the utterance and the event are causally connected.

Prophecy-Not: religious writings and utterances of religious figures are in no way (other than the self-fulfilling kind) causally connected. Writings that occurred after the fact, but pretended to be written before the fact, are most common examples. Over time, more and more people who were scammed only to finally figure out what time it is; fewer sheep are led astray thereafter, as word gets around.

Prophecy: science will continue to rid people of their superstitious beliefs.

Prophecy-Not: religions obstruct science because it is toppling their superstitious pillars of faith.

What about the global warming prophesies; there will be floods and bad weather? What about environmentalists prophesies about man destroying the earth; the species of the earth shall lie in the dust?

In all cases of prophesies, people look at trends and extrapolate that to the future, making confident assertions, which play on emotions, such as fear.

These two doom and gloom versions of modern prophesies, seem right for the times because they hit a cord inside the unconscious mind of many people. This affect is connected to the symbols behind the projection. In other words, instead of look at a prophesy, like global warming literally, you look at it symbolically as a symptom of something inside the collective unconscious, that is not natural.

With global warming symbolism, the earth is heating up due to man's intervention. This will then trigger all types of disasters. The chemical that is causing this, CO2, is, ironically, an important aspect of the life cycle on earth; critical to life due to its connection to the sun; photosynthesis.

The earth would symbolize natural instinct, while human intervention is harming instinct, due to willpower and choice leading to synthetic or artificial behavior, that is throwing natural instinct out of balance. The sun and CO2, when it balance is needed by life, but since instinct is out of balance, the sun (inner self) is causing instinct to heat up; potentiate.

The almost obsessive call to save the earth reflects the inner need to preserve the natural from the unnatural; within humans. This unnatural behavior is causing instinctive potentials to increase; symbolized by global warming. If this was true, it would be reflected in higher levels of instinctive impulse in culture; obesity; stronger hunger, etc.

Predictably, the strongest supporters of the global warming prophesies are the atheist religion. These are the people who unconsciously project the growing instinctive potentials due to artificial behavior. There are those who don't experience the same level of projection; more natural with less potential. They don't feel the prophesy projection in the same way. The herd is split.

Prophesies are often about the impact of collective human social behavior on the natural working of the unconscious mind; personality firmware. This is why symbols like dragon, etc are often used; firmware ID. It tells you which firmware is doing what due to culture. As the artificial causes the natural potentials to increase, culture itself gets potentiated. There is then an inevitable correction to the collective once the activation energy is reached.

What about the global warming prophesies; there will be floods and bad weather? What about environmentalists prophesies about man destroying the earth; the species of the earth shall lie in the dust?
Reading trends in a data set is prophecy.


In all cases of prophesies, people look at trends and extrapolate that to the future, making confident assertions, which play on emotions, such as fear.

Prophesy is an ongoing scam.

In other words, instead of look at a prophesy, like global warming literally, you look at it symbolically as a symptom of something inside the collective unconscious, that is not natural.

Anti global warming denialism, like prophesy, invades the collective consciousness with symbolism.



With global warming symbolism,

CO2, CH4, N2O, O3-


the earth is heating up due to man's intervention.

[Shh. The earth is not heating up due to human activity.]


This will then trigger all types of disasters.

[Shh. The biosphere is not crashing as we speak.]

The chemical that is causing this, CO2, is, ironically, an important aspect of the life cycle on earth; critical to life due to its connection to the sun; photosynthesis.
Ironically, nature sequestered carbon in organic matter that became petroleum. Ironically, we burn it releasing CO2. Ironically, folks deny it.


The earth would symbolize natural instinct, while human intervention is harming instinct, due to willpower and choice leading to synthetic or artificial behavior, that is throwing natural instinct out of balance. The sun and CO2, when it balance is needed by life, but since instinct is out of balance, the sun (inner self) is causing instinct to heat up; potentiate.

The symbolic potentiate of the solar inner self imbalances the instinctive drive to produce CO2.


The almost obsessive call to save the earth

vs the obsession to destroy it



reflects the inner need to preserve the natural from the unnatural; within humans.

thus preserving the unnatural from the natural


This unnatural behavior is causing instinctive potentials to increase; symbolized by global warming. If this was true, it would be reflected in higher levels of instinctive impulse in culture; obesity; stronger hunger, etc.

if any of the post were true the instinctive impulse to deny earth science would be reflected in increasing potentials toward unnatural behavior: increasing hunger, stronger obesity, warmer globing, etc.


Predictably, the strongest supporters of the global warming prophesies are the atheist religion.

Since the godless shall not inherit the earth, their global warming predictably supports strong atheist religious prophesy.


These are the people who unconsciously project the growing instinctive potentials due to artificial behavior.

The godless instinctive potentials unconsciously project their artificial people against denialist behavior due to growth.



There are those who don't experience the same level of projection; more natural with less potential. They don't feel the prophesy projection in the same way. The herd is split.

The herd's cloven projections feel less potential in the same way those who don't experience more natural projections do.



Prophesies are often about the impact of collective human social behavior on the natural working of the unconscious mind; personality firmware. This is why symbols like dragon, etc are often used; firmware ID. It tells you which firmware is doing what due to culture. As the artificial causes the natural potentials to increase, culture itself gets potentiated. There is then an inevitable correction to the collective once the activation energy is reached.
The firmware activation energy impacts the collective culture in dragon symbols causing natural potentials to increase the artificial causes of culture, once potentiated though personality firmware of the unconscious mind. Only then is there an inevitable correction of the firmware ID by prophesy.

You forgot to mention that the activation potential of the prophecy module in the personality firmware is governed by a culturally sensitive algorithm that produces artificial corrections in the collective.

You forgot to mention that the activation potential of the prophecy module in the personality firmware is governed by a culturally sensitive algorithm that produces artificial corrections in the collective.

I was just messing around. What you said was awesome! Now we're getting somewhere! ...some folks will need an upgrade just to understand you....

Please, people: prepare for the program patch to the parietal procedure that is precluding proper parsing of this poster's poignantly posed proposition!

It is not so much the data trends which show a slight global warming over the past century; 1 degree, but the willingness to accept the prophesies of what shall happen in the latter days (future) due to global warming. These are two things and should not be merged, emotionally.

For example, each year there is doom and gloom about the newest flu. The data comes out with an anticipated loss of life, if we don't act. This prophesy panics the herd and they line up for the shot. The flu is real but the future is not.

The vaccines runs out and there is not enough for all. But it doesn't matter in the end, because it was mostly emotions getting the best of reason. This same merge between fact and prophesy extrapolation occurs in global warming. If the temperature data is true then, polar bears will be extinct! The second does not have the same proof as the first.

All you need to do is go back twenty years ago and see what has come true based on the global warming prophesies of that time. The ocean never rose like expected. The heating is still less than 1 degree over a century. The reaction to the prophesy was emotionally inflated beyond the prophesy data, due to fear. How many fell for the ocean rising prophesy a decade ago? That was not good science like the temperature data but provides an activation energy.


You forgot to mention that the activation potential of the prophecy module in the personality firmware is governed by a culturally sensitive algorithm that produces artificial corrections in the collective.

The order is actually a little different. A cultural sensitive algorithm produces an artificial adjustment in the social collective, which deviates from natural. This creates the activation energy to help induce the dynamics of any prophesy module, so the personality firmware, within the collective unconscious, can collectively activate for a natural correction. As long as natural is followed, there is less potential. It needs artificial to get the process going. The stronger the induction the more impact the culturally sensitive algorithm had on the psyche.

Religions have their own prophesy because being perfect is not natural. This is why their prophesies tend to polarize into the best and worse of human nature. This exercises the repressed natural. The Global warming prophesy has a connection to relative behavior and instinct, neither of which is very natural.

Ugh, this prophecy is so simple, it's so easy to understand “When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

The Iron birds are Air Planes , The horses that run on wheels are automobiles , the dharma is the teaching of buddhism and the land of the red faced people is north america or the united states

this prophecy has already been fulfilled. The Iron birds fly and wheeled horses rule the planet , and people of tibetan descent aren't only in tibet.

this prophecy has already been fulfilled. The Iron birds fly and wheeled horses rule the planet , and people of tibetan descent aren't only in tibet.

Airplanes aren't made of iron, horses don't run on wheels, Tibetans are still in Tibet, and red faced people could easily be Mongolians.

Fine, what do you think they meant

And I know horses don't run on wheels but they were using symbolism, since there were no cars around a very long time ago, they rode horses, you have to steer a horse, you have to give a horse fuel. try thinking, and not being negative and snappy toward people, and instead try to imagine the inventions of today and symbolism behind what they meant, but since your so sure of yourself what did they mean to you

There are tibetans around the world, there are people of tibetan descent in canada, there are people of tibetan descent in the u.s. , so, think before you speak instead of trying to be snippy at people, I know people of tibetan descent and i'm in california

When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people”

Prophesies are 3-D symbols from the collective unconscious via the right brain. They are not designed to be taken literally using left brain association and differentiation. They need to be translated with collective human symbolism.

A bird is an animal of the air and is therefore not symbolically anchored to the earth. As such, the symbol of the bird is connected to free floating thoughts instead of instinct; blue sky research is not yet anchored in reality but is in the air. An iron bird would be heavy such that it could not fly for long but will soon fall to the earth. What is in the air will soon materialize.

The horse is a very intelligent animal that is like an extension of the skilled horseman; work as a team. The horse symbolizes the unconscious mind and the animal within connected to our instincts. The horse within (our instinct) may need food, but we the rider (ego) controls the reins and can make the horse (body) walk on before we eat.

Wheels were chosen because these are round and therefore symbolize the center of the collective unconscious or the inner self. Horse on wheels would be analogous to being driven by instinct from the center of one's being. Wheels provide mechanical advantage just as being driven by instinct (passions) adds an elements of ease via the compulsion; war is about to materialize via an instinctive call of the wild, as the inner self leverages and integrate humans within 4-D; spatially integrating in time.

The land of the red faced people; red is the color of passion and emotions; fire. The wheel is leveraging emotions. Our face is one thing that makes each of us unique, since each will look slightly different from the next. Yet the color red is collective and means human emotions.

I would guess this means people lose their uniqueness, as the calling of the wild materializes. As an analogy, people can lose their individuality as a mob forms, as each person become like cells within a larger entity; mob mentality. The Dharma retains his wisdom and control but sees the mob materialize.

Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world. Ants are a colony critter and although they will scatter over an area to hunt and build, they remain connected to the colony.

It appears both the conqueror and the vanquished are defined within the symbolism.

There are avatars everywhere, and when a person makes a prophecy they have to overcome an avatar. Prophecies in the Bible wouldn't be possible without avatars, and the fact that Buddha starved himself in memory of the great Gandhi is startling. What will manifest is always obvious and what's gonna happen is always prophecied, but no one ever knows what's going to end of sphere. Too much confusion blocks ultraviolet rays form entering the earth and the Earth and Earth. Heaven shines down on the earth but no one perceives it. It's like cosmic radiation making new superheroes. To achieve ultimate status you have to accept something. To accept something is not to make a choice but to accept dharma.