Permitted Procrastination - The Death of Dreams

No matter how strong or close my ambitions may be I just cant get myself to get off my ass most of the time to get them done. I was wondering if anyone else had these issues, now I know there are a million excuses for it like depression, laziness and so on. But really I believe the only reason we do it is because we allow it. What I don’t understand is why, do I believe that these goals will accomplish themselves, or that if I truly applied myself I would get them done easily with time to spare thus justifying the waste of it? No, well people have often told me that if you want something enough you will do anything to get it. But all throughout society the vast majority of people don’t do just that. Of course I know that not everybody has issues with procrastination, but those busybodies often compromise their dreams somewhere down the line giving up grandeur for a two bedroom apartment and a dead end job. Are lazy people just those who are unwilling to compromise their dreams and thus self exiled within? Are they the modern dreamer in an unimaginative industrial world whereas most peoples dreams are just combinations of subliminal messages from false advertising? I hope not.

What I’m trying to get at is that most people have issues in one way or another of putting off their dreams. Why? Why do we set aside that what matters to us most and settle for a dreary reality? I don’t really know, but I assume its because we do not see a relevant correlation between our daily actions and our dreams, instead of looking at our dreary jobs as a stepping stone may end up seeing them as the finish line. Although this board is full of young people all believing to aspire to their dreams and believe that the will accomplish them without a doubt, take a good look around you. That 80 year old man behind the cash register at Wal-Mart once thought the same thing, that beggar, that office worker whose getting gray hairs early, that soccer mom juggling six kids. Yet all of them if you where to ask them could not honestly say they had achieved, or even moderately so, their beloved and distant dreams. How did this happen. I can only imagine that like us they slowly progressed on, year by year making little headway and giving their life half ass efforts, or perhaps they where the loyal and diligent workers who ended up getting nothing to show for their efforts and got worn out, but no matter the effort they ended up slowly drifting away from their dreams until they where buried in the responsibilities of their actions with their once vivid dreams nothing no more than a implausible fantasy.

Everyday I sit, not particularly annoyed nor angered although I do have my days, but just silently noting as opportunities pass me by. Its easy to see each one once it has long gone by as the answer, the key, the missing part of me, sometimes the ability to reach out to get involved and jump on the track to a better life seems to stream through my fingers and all I need to do is take hold. But its too late and my fingers catch on empty air, all there is is a knot of disappointment and repressed rage growing ever tighter in my gut until I can feel the vomit rise in my throat. The more I disappoint myself the angrier I become at the world, so many metal people where not unlike me, they just broke easier. The only difference between sanity and insanity is that we are willing to accept our errors and take responsibility for our pointless crappy lives. Sometimes I envy the ignorant the insane, they can live it up, but they will never have true glory of experiencing your triumphs and feeling others see it revel in it too, all the insane can do is cling to the tatters of worn out dreams and horded all that they can get. Ignorance is not bliss, its weakness, as is compromise so I deplore you all not to seek refuge within it, but rather realize the very real probability of your being able to experience your own accomplishments.

All that is left for us to mull on is whether like our forefathers will we pass quietly into the beyond where no measure of false faith or blind beliefs will deter us from spending an eternity of regret and disillusion alone, our take our glorious ever after and live on as a remembrance of dignity and vision to those around us. What is there to gain from a compromise? What I propose and suggest is the only cure to this tragedy is that we strive ever onward towards them, no matter our age, no matter our job, responsibilities - there will always be a way to improve life around you. Although we may not jump up at the revelation nor change our most gross errors nor routines, but in time, we will be closer.

“Humanities greatest error is its inability to evolve without necessity.” ~ Me. Lol.

do I believe that these goals will accomplish themselves, or that if I truly applied myself I would get them done easily
Could it be that humans are just biological robots guided by something beyond their control:)? Sure, humans realize that other options are possible, but can't do anything against their guiding program. Procrastination is just hanging state or a robot:).


No matter how strong or close my ambitions may be I just cant get myself to get off my ass most of the time to get them done. I was wondering if anyone else had these issues, now I know there are a million excuses for it like depression, laziness and so on. But really I believe the only reason we do it is because we allow it. What I don’t understand is why, do I believe that these goals will accomplish themselves, or that if I truly applied myself I would get them done easily with time to spare thus justifying the waste of it?

Could be that procrastination is necessary for staying sane? If you take a house, for example, and try to maximize the quantity of "stuff" inside, you'll get quite useless from a utilitarian point of veiw building since you can't use it anymore because it's stuffed so tight. Yes we can spend every moment of our lives reaching that grand goals of ours. What kind of life would it be? Most people will not like it (that's provided that they can force themselves to live in this way, see above :).

No, well people have often told me that if you want something enough you will do anything to get it. But all throughout society the vast majority of people don’t do just that. Of course I know that not everybody has issues with procrastination, but those busybodies often compromise their dreams somewhere down the line giving up grandeur for a two bedroom apartment and a dead end job.

Do humans have a right not to give a rat arse about being ambitious and reaching that McMansion in burbs? Can living non ambitious life be dream in itself? Besides, in the capitalist economy, no matter how ambitious and purpose driven everybody will become, somebody is going to clean toilets and live in roach infested appartments.

Bad thing about drems - you feel empty after you've reach one. What I'm hinting at, nonambitious procrastination ridden life is just as good as ambitious, since provided some skill in rhetoric every dream could be exposed for what it is - escape from absurdity of life. It's even easier to mix dreams with dirt because almost all of them include upgraiding one's income status. What a noble goal, living modestly and "watching stars" doesn't come close to that.

Sometimes it's laziness, but sometimes it's the ability to weigh up so many pros and cons that all you're left with are a bunch of variables and no incentive because of the uncertainty.

Sometimes we want the unattainable whilst lacking the talent and dynamism to 'go for it'. So many that 'go for it' land face down in the dirt and that is because they didn't reckon on my first sentence.

Sometimes, people with the right talent and the need or ambition, are able to spot an opportunity and they grab it with both hands. Good luck to them.

Hi Quixotic,
When I have trouble motivating myself to do things, it's usually from one of two reasons.
It's something I 'feel' I 'should' do, but in my heart don't really want to.
or
I'm in a 'what's the point' frame of mind.

The first comes down to a matter of convincing myself that I do, or do not, need to do it, then giving myself a mental kick in the ass, OR dropping it.

The second is a little trickier. I think it results from the attitude that only ends are worthwhile, and that doing is irrelavent. This is an attitude that robs us of the satisfaction of doing. The logic of this argument would tell us that, since we're all going to die some day, why not just give up and be done with it. Obviously, this conclusion is counterproductive to our well being. I call it a mental lie, because it tells us something that is not in our best interest. Mind is not always our best friend.
I hope this means something.
John

Everyone, at all times, takes the path of least resistance. Even when you see someone working hard, it is the path of least resistance. Because, for them, suffering the consequences of NOT doing that action, or just the guilt or peer-pressure involved, MUST have been greater than the toil in doing them.

I find it helps to constantly be aware of this fact. At every moment in time, everyone is doing the thing that bothers them the LEAST.

Hi Swivel,
......."Everyone, at all times, takes the path of least resistance." I'm not so sure about that. Certainly it's my first inclination.
.......So then, if one takes what he thinks is the more difficult road, he is actually taking the easier road because it's what he wants to do? Would this be your reasoning?
John

man, thats a long first post, I will read it later ;)

man, thats a long first post, I will read it later ;)
I was going to reply to it earlier, but couldnt I be bothered.....:m:

Hi Swivel,
......."Everyone, at all times, takes the path of least resistance." I'm not so sure about that. Certainly it's my first inclination.
.......So then, if one takes what he thinks is the more difficult road, he is actually taking the easier road because it's what he wants to do? Would this be your reasoning?
John

If someone is doing the dishes, it isn't because they enjoy doing the dishes, it is because they hate something else more. It could be the sight of the dishes piled up in the sink, it could be the fact that they are going for a tall glass, and there isn't any available. It could be the fear of attracting pests. The point is, they are doing something they dislike, but only because they dislike some alternative even more.

For any situation where it seems that someone is running counter to this theory, look deep and think on it. You will see that their motivation is to stave off a worse situation. Even homeless people mostly choose that path because it is less painful to them than the misery of staying sober, or working a steady job. And I say this as someone who has spent a ton of time with the homeless of NYC and Miami.

Just because someone is complaining, that doesn't mean they aren't taking the easy route, they would be complaining even more if they did something different.

Hi Swivel,
.....Yes, you make some good points. So then, you're saying that to avoid feeling guilty, or facing the consequences of doing otherwise (i.e. fear) we do what we would otherwise not do?
.....What about people who claim to do what they believe is in the best interest of others, even though they don't particularly agree with, or want to do it. For example, I often talk with people in severe stress, who say things that I would like to challenge, but do not, because it would make their lives even more stressful. Am I talking the path of least resistance? What about people who give their lives so that others may live. Are both these simply knuckling under, because we wouldn't be able to live with our conscience if we did otherwise?
John

Hi Swivel,
.....Yes, you make some good points. So then, you're saying that to avoid feeling guilty, or facing the consequences of doing otherwise (i.e. fear) we do what we would otherwise not do?
.....What about people who claim to do what they believe is in the best interest of others, even though they don't particularly agree with, or want to do it. For example, I often talk with people in severe stress, who say things that I would like to challenge, but do not, because it would make their lives even more stressful. Am I talking the path of least resistance? What about people who give their lives so that others may live. Are both these simply knuckling under, because we wouldn't be able to live with our conscience if we did otherwise?
John

It would obviously be harder for you to deal with the confrontation than it is for you to keep mum. It would be more difficult for some people to live with their choice, than to sacrifice themselves. In every case, a person does what is best for them at the time.

It would obviously be harder for you to deal with the confrontation than it is for you to keep mum. It would be more difficult for some people to live with their choice, than to sacrifice themselves. In every case, a person does what is best for them at the time.
Sounds like Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness". She said there is no such thing as sacrifice. What appears to be sacrifice is someone trading something they value less for something they value more. As you said, a person gives his life because he can't live with doing nothing.

Sounds like Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness". She said there is no such thing as sacrifice. What appears to be sacrifice is someone trading something they value less for something they value more. As you said, a person gives his life because he can't live with doing nothing.

That's assuming one've spent some time on weighing "what he can live with or without" (People can live pretty much with anything, if they took a deep breath or two at the decision time.). "sacrifice" decisions are made without much thinking. Had people think a lot about it, we've had much less "sacrifices". One just do it, as we just breathe.

Sometimes it's laziness, but sometimes it's the ability to weigh up so many pros and cons that all you're left with are a bunch of variables and no incentive because of the uncertainty.

Perfectionism - excessive emphasis on having things go as imagined. Perfectionism is a disability when how to obtain one's goals is imagined to be beyond all that is required. Sometimes perfectionism extends from hope and wishful thinking.

Laziness - sometimes mistaken for sensitivity, as the latter can be the cause of the former. Intellectuals and other brilliant types form a number of propositions upon which all other thought is based on. (note: some brilliant people are naieve and they ACTUALLY use words like "proposition" in a casual conversation LOL. Its like they want to get killed or something.)


"Every step that I take is another mistake to you."- Linkin Park.

Sometimes we want the unattainable whilst lacking the talent and dynamism to 'go for it'. So many that 'go for it' land face down in the dirt and that is because they didn't reckon on my first sentence.

A mind that defines the word "unattainable" has set itself up for failure. Not to mention, delusion, as the unattainable cannot be known.

Sometimes, people with the right talent and the need or ambition, are able to spot an opportunity and they grab it with both hands. Good luck to them.

I got an opportunity right here. ;)

No matter how strong or close my ambitions may be I just cant get myself to get off my ass most of the time to get them done.
You've conquered verbosity with natural ease.

I could never figure out if I'm a procrastinator or not. I'll letcha know tomorrow what I think.

- N

Hi Swivel,
....."It would obviously be harder for you to deal with the confrontation than it is for you to keep mum. It would be more difficult for some people to live with their choice, than to sacrifice themselves."
.....This seems like one of those discussions where it doesn't matter what reason I come up with, it can be interpreted as the easy way out. I'm NOT saying you're wrong.
.....Are you sure you're not plastering YOUR interpretation of people's motives onto everyone? We tend to do that, you know.
John

I could never figure out if I'm a procrastinator or not. I'll letcha know tomorrow what I think. - NThanks, I have been planning to say that for a month.;)

Hi Swivel,
....."It would obviously be harder for you to deal with the confrontation than it is for you to keep mum. It would be more difficult for some people to live with their choice, than to sacrifice themselves."
.....This seems like one of those discussions where it doesn't matter what reason I come up with, it can be interpreted as the easy way out. I'm NOT saying you're wrong.
.....Are you sure you're not plastering YOUR interpretation of people's motives onto everyone? We tend to do that, you know.
John

Yes, I am using my interpretation of people's motives to understand what they are doing. How could it be any other way? Would I be better off parroting Freud's interpretations of people's motives? I guess you can see why I don't understand this complaint of yours. Maybe I am just missing something obvious.

I use my personal experience, not just by looking at my own behavior, but also by studying others through observation and conversation, and I couple this with academic study in the field of sociology and psychology. This is my primary hobby for the past 5 years.

I have come up with some pretty startling conclusions during this time. I think I understand what causes depression now. I understand why people behave in many of the strange ways that they do. And one of the things that I have realized, which startled me the most, is this very concept of the path of least resistance. I search diligently to find flaws, to think of a thought-experiment which defies my conclusions, because I think more progress towards truth is found in killing an idea than in giving birth to it. And this one has survived my most aggressive attempts.

So please don't think I am shooting down your arguments out of spite, or to protect any precious idea. I welcome the discussion, and hope to learn from it.

...I think more progress towards truth is found in killing an idea than in giving birth to it....A-mem! -ideas spring up here (this forum) like weeds. Most I ignore. When they come up in the physics and math forum, with obvious mis understanding that I can correct, I try to serve as a "weed killer", but some are planted by posters that are immune to accepted, demonstrated, "facts" ("Facts" in quotes because nothing is known for sure and I general like / encourage doubters* who have some basis other than their opinion that they are correct and 10,000 Ph.D.s in physics are wrong. etc)
---------------------------------
*In the cognitive science area I am one, a real "crack pot" by the accepted doctrine, but in my post here and in published paper, I explain why and demonstrate three serious problems for the accepted view of how the mind works. See:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1031482#post1031482
Start to read a page or so down, at bold text: "Genuine Free Will is Possible" (can be consistent with physics).

My position is not the standard cognitive science one - quite the contrary, but it has great "explanatory powers" in many different areas of psychology, medicine, even anthropology (specifically, providing a new explanation for the "Out of Africa" event), etc.

Hi Swivel,
"Would I be better off parroting Freud's interpretations of people's motives?"
.....Absolutely not. I find people that go around quoting other people's work, simply on the basis of who they are, tedious, and I have no time for them. If you tell me from your own experience that this is what you've found, I'm interested. Those who do otherwise are building their house on a bog. I sense that you too live by the same code.
....."I guess you can see why I don't understand this complaint of yours."
I have no complaint. You make an excellent case. I'm simply discussing it with you. I find that questioning someone about their premises, not only helps to bring out the relevant points, but helps me to understand what I can support and cannot support, in my own mind. This, to me, is important to understand, because like yourself I'm very interested in knowing what motivates me, not so much others. And I have to admit that my attempts to fathom the motives of others, often results in misdiagnosis, although it sometimes helps one to understand ones own motives. I'm afraid that I can sometime be irritating, as has already been observed. I hope you don't feel violated (joke). It all stems back to my mommy, and teachers, telling me to BE QUIET as a little boy (another joke).
....."I have come up with some pretty startling conclusions during this time." I'll bet you have. I'd love to compare notes.
....."I understand what causes depression now." I'd like to hear this. I do volunteer work with depressed people.
.....I also sense that you're not terribly attached to your opinions.
.....Well, when we're choking on a chicken bone, most of this won't matter too much.
John

Shakushinnen,
Thanks for the reply. Since depression is somewhat related to procrastination, I hope nobody minds if I shift the subject a tad. Before I explain my theory on the utility of depression, I have a few questions for you.

1. Do you understand that Evolution, the fact that species have changed over time, is an observational fact?

2. As of right now, do you think that Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection is the most accurate theory to explain the mechanism for Evolution?

3. Are you aware that some people have been born with a difference in their DNA that keeps their medulla oblongata from exuding the chemical that puts the rest of us to sleep? These people stay awake their entire lives. It is exceedingly rare, and I have only found a detailed account of two of these people in one of Carl Sagan's science works. The fact that this father/daughter combo were perfectly normal in every other way demonstrates to me that we do not need sleep, rather that it is a form of daily hibernation used to conserve calories and keep animals away from predators with either a nocturnal or diurnal life cycle. Now, this is by far the least accepted theory of sleep, but I need to know if you can consider it as an option, because it is a great example of how depression is used by the organism.

4. Do you think that depression is the same as sadness?


The reason I'm asking these questions is because my theory will make you blow your cereal through your nose if some of these other concepts aren't in the background. I have some further ones depending on how you answer here, and feel free to ramble on about any of these four points, the more I hear the better.

Please continue.
John