What are your feelings about it? Do believe that open prayer in schools should be allowed or banned?

Personally, I feel that it should be restricted because schools are places for education, not religious expression. If you want to express your religion, feel free to do it at home or church, not at school.

And I know, I know. So many people are going to call me some anti-religion atheist or some crap like that.

IM NOT AN ATHEIST, I BELIEVE IN GOD.

So please, save both of us the time and refrain from attempting to insult me.

I disagree with it.
Prayer in schools may counter the beliefs of those that either do not believe in God or do not believe in the god the person leading the prayer endorses. Those are significant points that encroach upon the beliefs of others by their mere presence and in America there is a strict division of church and state that prevents the favoring of one religion over others to gain ascendance.

Religous indviduals have often proven ill tempered and misguided in their view of church and state and to exclusive teachings. If society is to progress in an orderly manner this must remain a constant.

I personly was silently offended of others praying before myself. I knew that was not the intent but I also could not consciously participate.

Some schools should have prayers and some shouldn't

Some schools should have prayers and some shouldn't

Please provide an example or two... thanks.

Allowed. Schools started going downhill after prayer/God were taken out. They have never recovered.

Sure, allow it. Pray to a different deity every day of the year. It will expand their knowledge of the world's many religions. Odin is a personal favorite, start with him.

Odin, far-wanderer, grant me wisdom,
Courage, and victory.
Friend Thor, grant me your strength.
And both be with me.

Please provide an example or two... thanks.

Catholic school

http://www.stpaulfenton.org/school/

http://www.saintx.com/

and

public school

http://www.bbcs.k12.ny.us/

When I was six there was a teacher who'd make us stand up beside our desks and pray a holy mary. I would just stand there.

It should depend on the school, should not be mandatory and should not be during class time. Let students and teachers take care of it during their free periods if they want to.

Allowed. Schools started going downhill after prayer/God were taken out. They have never recovered.

Thats equivalent to saying those with religious faith are more intelligent than those without.

Nah, God stopped rewarding the schools with intelligence once schools stopped prayer. No such thing as intelligence without God.

Thats equivalent to saying those with religious faith are more intelligent than those without.

"downhill" is not targeted to mean lower intelligence...morality is at stake here. Morality in public schools is so low that "children" there now-days shoot each other...

Nah, God stopped rewarding the schools with intelligence once schools stopped prayer. No such thing as intelligence without God.

Can't tell if your serious or not.

That's cause you probably didn't pray in school!

"downhill" is not targeted to mean lower intelligence...morality is at stake here. Morality in public schools is so low that "children" there now-days shoot each other...

The fac that school violence is rising has little to do with morality in school systems. Rather, it has MUCH more to do with morality OUTSIDE of school systems and at home.

The fac that school violence is rising has little to do with morality in school systems. Rather, it has MUCH more to do with morality OUTSIDE of school systems and at home.

:bugeye: your kidding me, right? schools have got to do almost everything with how kids behave. Schools are meant to teach kids how to live in life in harmony with society by educating them math, science, literature, sports, history and ethics!

I was though ethics when I was in school, were you?

No I am not joking. It is the PARENTS of those children who teach and ultimately determine how thier children behave. Yes schools teach important topics such as those you've listed. But that has little to do with social interaction. Morality is FIRST taught by the parents, and it starts from the day we are born.

Parents do show ethics...but most children try to copy someone else and usually its the kids around them and how they act and not their parents.

Parents do show ethics...but most children try to copy someone else and usually its the kids around them and how they act and not their parents.

True, but where does it start? The parents. If one child is not taught the social norms of acceptable behavior properly from birth then that will carry with that child to the schools, where other children will view that child and take after him. So, in this argument, we are both correct.

If anything draqon, teaching morality isn't equivalent to prayer. No reason why ethics can't be taught independent of any religion.

If anything draqon, teaching morality isn't equivalent to prayer. No reason why ethics can't be taught independent of any religion.

I like you already! :D You almost fooled me before!

because religion has very close ties to ethics. Ultimately they will ask Who? What? and Why?

Still not prayer draqon. You can talk about religions influences on modern day ethics without praying.

deeper ethics ultimately call for prayer which is ultimately a meditation for self containment and purity of soul.

Honestly, the best solution lies in a compromise. I think prayer should be allowed in schools as long as they are student-initiated and student-led. No one should have the right to tell a student he cannot pray before a meal just because it's school (or before a test :-) ). However, schools should not outright encourage, sponsor, or initiate prayer, such as over the intercom or at an assembly. That would be a violation of the separation of church and state. Things like "See you at the Pole" or prayer during school hours by individual students or groups of students is fine.

Teacher involvement is a bit touchier. Teachers should probably refrain from participating with students because they are employees of the government. As much as I dislike restricting teachers like that, it's just asking for lawsuits and someone's offense. Teachers have to understand their job limits that kind of personal expression at work, but if a teacher led a Bible study at their home after classes were over, that seems all right with me.

As a side note, I think the BS of cutting off a student's microphone at graduation because they mention God or pray at the beginning of their speech is a blatant violation of free speech. It happens a lot where I'm from, so I read in the news (some school does it every year).

There is no ban on prayer in school nor should there be. Prayer is completely legal in any public school in the United States.

It just cannot be teacher/faculty led or sponsored, nor should it.

Not even if it's during the teacher's free time and not during class?

Absolutely not. If the teacher wants to be a preacher there are different vocations or venues that are accepting. If, however, that teacher wants to represent a school funded by tax dollars which may or may not include members of that teacher's cult, then that teacher should keep his or her cult practices to his or her self.

Why would I want that teacher muttering an Islamic prayer to my daughter even on the teacher's free time and not in class? I know of many parents that would be absolutely livid if a Wiccan teacher took the time to teach a pagan prayer or chant to their 3rd graders during a free period. I can't think of a single parent that would tolerate the team huddling right after prostrating themselves toward Mecca, even if the game wasn't an official one and not the actual football team -just a bunch of students that want to get on coach Mubas' good side.

No. Prayer and religious superstition has no place being offered as an a priori fact of truth in school. Doing so ultimately excludes someone. Let children get their religious indoctrinations from their parents should their parents so choose to abuse their children in that manner.

That's a bit much. Even looking at your example, if the parents don't want their children to hang out with their evil Wiccan teacher, they should tell them not to. If they've taught the children to respect their wishes, then everything works out fine. If not, what's wrong with children exploring their curiosity as long as the parents do a good job of teaching the proper faith at home? Just because the parents practice intolerance doesn't mean the school should. Unless of course, the community as a whole wants to get rid of (all) prayer in schools. That's a different issue.

And I don't buy the exclusion argument. If a student wants to join a teacher in prayer, that's absolutely his/her choice. If he wants to do it dishonestly to just suck up, that's still his/her choice. If another student wants to do it just to join their friend and not because they're really interested, that's still his/her choice. It would be completely voluntary.

There is absolutely no reason to provide cult practices in a place of academia. Moreover, if they're provided an exclusion surely develops since kids will feel pressured to participate in order to appeal to popularity or authority.

Prayers are welcome in school already. They just have to be spontaneous among students and not endorsed or led by school authorities.

Nor did I say any of the cult members above were "evil." I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth (so to speak).

Prayer has no logical link with advancement or development in either ethics or intelligence. It therefore should be granted at best a neutral face by a school administration...anything more is a breach of professional standards.

Prayer has no logical link with advancement or development in either ethics or intelligence. It therefore should be granted at best a neutral face by a school administration...anything more is a breach of professional standards.

Agree'd

There should be no prayer in state funded schools, during lesson time, or led by any employee of the school system.

If Prayer were to be allowed, all faiths would have to be represented equally, alongside alternative to faith and religion, such as atheism, for balance. I don't think there is enough time on the curriculum, so it should all be avoided, and schools should just teach facts.

What are your feelings about it? Do believe that open prayer in schools should be allowed or banned?

Personally, I feel that it should be restricted because schools are places for education, not religious expression. If you want to express your religion, feel free to do it at home or church, not at school.

And I know, I know. So many people are going to call me some anti-religion atheist or some crap like that.

IM NOT AN ATHEIST, I BELIEVE IN GOD.

So please, save both of us the time and refrain from attempting to insult me.



i personally think that schools are for learning, and education, the spiritual nuturing of the children should be left to the perants.

my son was recently offered a place at a local catholic school and i turned it down, because its my job to teach my children about god, and the bible.

Allowed. Schools started going downhill after prayer/God were taken out. They have never recovered.

no, prayer was allowed in school during the days of segregation and seperate bathrooms/drinking fountains. Was that better?

If you want prayer in school, send your kid to private school. If god wants it, I'm sure he'll help you get the money for it.

Mmm, I guess I'm in the minority on this particular issue. I just think that if it's done during the student's free time and the teacher's free time, and purely voluntary, there shouldn't be a problem. But apparently there is. :shrug:

SW: I was just having fun with the "evil wiccans" comment, wasn't an intentional attempt to change your argument.

Mmm, I guess I'm in the minority on this particular issue. I just think that if it's done during the student's free time and the teacher's free time, and purely voluntary, there shouldn't be a problem. But apparently there is. :shrug:

SW: I was just having fun with the "evil wiccans" comment, wasn't an intentional attempt to change your argument.

I have no problem with a kid saying a prayer before a test or saying grace over his lunch.
Its that prayer at the beginning of the day or that 'moment of silence' that they try and sneak in. :mad: The school led prayer burns my ass. They do one prayer at my kids schools, and we have suddenly become a devil worshiping family who wants a prayer as well.

Allowed. Schools started going downhill after prayer/God were taken out. They have never recovered.

It started before that, Sandy. In 1937, Congress essentially banned marijuana with a tax stamp. Four years later, we were at war. During that war, the government had to ask American farmers to grow marijuana. But the stuff stayed illegal after the war, and we've never recovered.

Besides, the removal of prayer from public schools has nothing to do with the corruption of Christianity in the U.S. That's the fault of the Christians.

In consideration of the general topic, you can't actually remove prayer from public schools. It is, literally, impossible. What you can do is prevent tyrants from forcing children to pray, and that, more than anything, is what has Christians annoyed about prayer and public school.

Prayer is fine in private religious schools, ie Jewish or Christian, but not necessarily for public. My kids go to a school with children of Christian, Muslim, Hindu and other assorted faiths so I don't think that forcing all the kids to recite a Christian prayer would be appropriate.

I have no problem with a kid saying a prayer before a test or saying grace over his lunch.
Its that prayer at the beginning of the day or that 'moment of silence' that they try and sneak in. :mad: The school led prayer burns my ass. They do one prayer at my kids schools, and we have suddenly become a devil worshiping family who wants a prayer as well.

I'm in total agreement here. School led prayer is an absolute no.

It makes me mad because its not about the Christian's kid. That kid obviously prays every day at home. Its about making my child bend to your faith. WHY do they feel the need to make my child say their prayer?

I think only the Catholic School here does. I think in my kid's (Public) school they might only O canada in the morning with the announcements. I will have to double check that.

When I went to school (public school) we had the Lord's Prayer and O canada with the announcements.

I've never been to a school where prayer was done. But growing up we had a lot of Native Americans who were there and Russel Means and Dennis Banks were often in the area. I know they would have raised holy hell

I am Catholic (but not religious one bit) If they still do say the Prayer still, I wouldn't find it any big deal.

Some schools should have prayers and some shouldn't

Please provide an example or two... thanks.

In the Netherlands we have Christian schools and schools for everyone. This sounds misleading because everyone is allowed at both types of schools, however there is no praying in the 'schools for everyone', they are called 'Public schools'.
People that are not religious can go to the Christian school as well, and they are asked to respect the prayers and keep silent during them. Otherwise there is not much difference between the schools.
I think this is a good system. Isn't it like this where you live ?

If I had gone into school and prayed to, say, *generates random example* the Black Wolf God, would anyone take me seriously? No, at best they'd laugh, at worst they'd ask me if I'd been taking LSD, and very rightly so.

So why is it seen as normal and acceptable that kids 'pray' every day in school to God, Allah, Yahweh or whatever figment of some bronze-age acid-head's imagination??!! What is the difference between them and my hypothetical Black Wolf God? There isn't one - the former are seen as normal because large numbers of people worship them.

In other words, NO, I don't agree with prayer in schools.

If I had gone into school and prayed to, say, *generates random example* the Black Wolf God, would anyone take me seriously? No, at best they'd laugh, at worst they'd ask me if I'd been taking LSD, and very rightly so.

So why is it seen as normal and acceptable that kids 'pray' every day in school to God, Allah, Yahweh or whatever figment of some bronze-age acid-head's imagination??!! What is the difference between them and my hypothetical Black Wolf God? There isn't one - the former are seen as normal because large numbers of people worship them.

In other words, NO, I don't agree with prayer in schools.

Because they are Christian schools :rolleyes:

And that makes it normal or rational?

Born-again Christian kids are less violent. They are more respectful. They are like little angels when I see them at the Christian schools and at church. I don't know about the denominations. I heard the Catholic kids act up sometimes. I know no kids are perfect, but I really love the born-again Christian kids. They are adorable. :)

And that makes it normal or rational?

Huh!?
You don't have to attend a Christian school you know..

I went to a private school. Being India, there are people of all religions. Our school was run by a very forward thinking Christian woman. We had a general prayer (no specifics regarding any religion) both before and after school.

After 10 years of saying them everyday, I would be hard put to even remember all the words. It was just something the assembly did in the morning and the class at end of day.

Yeah it's definitely on my List of Things To Do Before I Die....and I mean RIGHT before I die, will definitely want to get that in.

Lots of people say/think that. I would never take the risk.

What are your feelings about it? Do believe that open prayer in schools should be allowed or banned?

Personally, I feel that it should be restricted because schools are places for education, not religious expression. If you want to express your religion, feel free to do it at home or church, not at school.

And I know, I know. So many people are going to call me some anti-religion atheist or some crap like that.

IM NOT AN ATHEIST, I BELIEVE IN GOD.

So please, save both of us the time and refrain from attempting to insult me.

I can pray whenever i want and wherever i want. I do not pray to express anything to you or anyone else.

I pray to God. You don't even have to know that i am praying. I prefer if you don't actually.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I've been down this path with Sandy before.

You all realize, don't you, that she's not actually a Christian?

You all realize, don't you, that she's not actually a Christian?

Are you implying that you believe she is a troll, or something else? Spell it out for me, I'm dense sometimes.

Are you implying that you believe she is a troll, or something else? Spell it out for me, I'm dense sometimes.

I don't follow either, Tiassa. She's made it clear that she claims Christianity as her religion of choice.

Are you implying that you believe she is a troll, or something else? Spell it out for me, I'm dense sometimes.

Troll, provocateur, call it what you want. To take MZ3Boy's point for instance: "She's made it clear that she claims Christianity as her religion of choice."

Well, she can say it. Doesn't mean much, all things considered. Al Qaeda would have us believe they're Muslims, the Catholics would have us believe Cardinal Francis George is the right man to steer the USCCB through the continuing sex-abuse scandal, and FOX News would have us believe they are fair and balanced.

There really are a number of things she could be. Consider it like the first time I ever saw this little brown, furry thing that, when you cut it open, looked like green fruit. The first time I saw it, I couldn't have told you it was kiwi fruit, but I certainly could have told you it wasn't a freakin' orange.

She could be:

• A misguided atheistic activist. After all, Sciforums isn't the only place she puts on this show; she travels around the web giving this performance that seems to depict Christians as complete morons. And while Christians and I have certain differences about our outlooks that seem irreconcilable, I'm not as hard on the Christians as she is.

• A political provocateur. Especially among conservatives, a popular game is to pretend ignorance. Then, when people repeatedly explain what one pretends to not know, they can turn around, clip an exasperated quote from here and there, and go off to complain to their friends about the hostile, self-righteous political opponents who think they know it all. Another, which seems more Sandy's game, is to depict a group of conservatives as being the epitome of stupidity and rudeness. They seek to offend by their alleged ignorance in order to take back to their comrades more evidence of how mean and bigoted the other side is. The point is generally to stir emotions and escalate hostility in order to reaffirm the idea that their innocent comrades are under threat from an aggressive and dangerous opposition.

• An idiot. It could simply be that, no matter how much she wants to be a Christian, she can't figure out how to be one.

One critical mistake about Sandy's performance is that she shows zero faith in God. Look at how much judgment pours from her lips. Look at how desperately she clings to tangible, earthly classifications. Watch her try to score points by playing juvenile games with people's names. She behaves as one who is absolutely afraid of trusting in God's wisdom, and while that might actually seem smart, it is not becoming of Christian faith. The basis of her expressions of faith is pride. She is proud to identify as a "CCR". She is proud of her faith. She is proud of the sociopolitical power she thinks it brings. The last thing her Christianity seems to give a damn about is Christ himself.

".... Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

(Matthew 25.41-ff, RSV (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4563978))

Consider her lack of compassion for "criminal aliens", and her devotion to earthly symbols (e.g., national borders, identity politics) instead of God's kingdom.

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

"Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words."

(Matthew 6.1-7, RSV (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4563978))

How proud she is of being born again, of being a CCR, of the political power she and her fellows wield.

The mistake of these false Christians is their pride, their impatience. They haven't any faith in God's wisdom, and seem to reject His mercy—unless, of course, that mercy should be for them. And like many provocateurs, she seems to treat the concept of original sin and faith in Jesus to mean that she can behave however the hell she wants, just as long as she believes Jesus will save her. Faith is more than simply being a spiritual ingrate. It is accepting wisdom that may well escape your grasp, and conducting yourself accordingly.

The strongest Christian faith is found in those you wouldn't know are there except that you trip over them accidentally. These are the ones who trust in God, rejoice in the promise. It is not found among those who would take up the Cross only to bludgeon their neighbors with.

Call her what you want. But calling her a Christian really is unfair to Christianity. Holding her behavior against Christianity would simply be bigotry. The best thing would be to leave her for God to deal with. So what if she won't be around to realize she's wrong? It's not worth wishing there was a God just so we could take joy in Sandy's impending condemnation.

All it takes is the time to observe her conduct. Certainly, she may behave like many other "Christians" who annoy the hell out of us, but isn't part of the complaint about Christians in America the fact of their hypocrisy?

Whoa, this thread got longer :)


I am Catholic (but not religious one bit) If they still do say the Prayer still, I wouldn't find it any big deal.

How can you be catholic and not religious at the same time? Catholicism is a religion.

What do they hope will happen if they pray in school? Are they praying for something in particular?


To not get shot.

There's one good reason:D

What is the education value of prayer? Those approving or conducting such useless endeavors should stick to educating, you know, do their friggin' job. How much confidence did you or do you have in a school administration that forces prayer on you? Despite all the Lord's prayers or whatever prayer they use, are things any better? How many of you listen to that stuff at school and privately think to yourselves that this is a total waste of time? Is there some of you that want to rebel out of spite when religion is rammed down your throat?

Finally, has anybody asked the students for their opinion?

Kids can already pray whenever they want. Jesus told people not to pray on street corners but in private. There should be no formal accomodation for prayer, since in a public school, it violates the establishment clause of the Constitution.

Whoa, this thread got longer :)




How can you be catholic and not religious at the same time? Catholicism is a religion.

Well I was baptised catholic. I went to church when I was a little kid. I stopped going and never went back. I do not go to church now, we do not talk about religion in our house. I do not beleive in the whole thing.

Well I was baptised catholic. I went to church when I was a little kid. I stopped going and never went back. I do not go to church now, we do not talk about religion in our house. I do not beleive in the whole thing.

Ah...this is what I thought. Not many people realise the over-reaching power the catholic church has.

You are indeed baptised catholic.

It is, however, not a genetic or hereditary trait. Now that you're an adult and profess to be not religious, you should no longer say you're catholic. And since Enmos asked, the question is not if baptism is irreversable...it's if the person baptised chooses to continue identifying themselves as the religion their parents had him/her baptised in.

You and many others however appear to accept the baptismal mark as irreversable even if you no longer hold the tenets of the religion to be believable. A baptism is wholly ceremonial, and completely irrelevant to your identity if you no longer subscribe to the originating theism.

I initially sent this thread to the cesspool after closing it, but was appealed to by several members to reopen it for three reasons:

1) the topic is genuinely important and interesting
2) the critique that Tiassa provided, while mis-characterized by at least two other members, was itself an opinion that may have actually been accurate because of the third reason
3) Christian provocateurs have used their self-righteous indignation and "how dare you question/criticize my superstition" stand before in the past in order to hijack/derail actual discussions into flame-wars in hope that the thread will be closed

Having said that, I want to make it clear that I reviewed Tiassa's post, to which Sandy appeared affronted by, and I found it to be a critique and a speculation and definitely *not* slanderous. This is an excerpt of the PM I sent to sandy:if you dare to be vocal about beliefs that others find completely wacky, hypocritical, and "idiotic," then you must be willing to accept that others are going to critique you. Indeed, by making your positions, beliefs, and superstitions so public on a science forum, you thereby give tacit approval and invite such a critique.

This thread is now reopened. Off-topic posts and flames will be deleted. Without warning or explanation.

If you are not willing to be scrutinized for your beliefs, then you might consider *not* posting them on a science forum, even *in* the religion section.

Allowed. Schools started going downhill after prayer/God were taken out. They have never recovered.

Sure, just as soon as you let educated people teach evolution in church.:rolleyes: