Once it is done it is done.

Only return to loose control, only return is to loose control.

It is not involuntary, you feel you want to, you are deceived and it is powerful. As if the very voice were your will.

You have all felt it (at least if you have had twitches in a muscle (often they may occur around the eyes)), if you think about it, it is as if there were a longing for the twitch, allthough you are really bothered about it. Like if "it's going to happen anyway, better that you want it" but somehow the other way around. Don't ask me.

The voice in the head of those that are possessed can be very empowering, it moves you, you fight back giving it energy to continue moving you. It doesn't feel natural at that point to loose control, but if you loose your control, he looses his control over you (you are you, you shouldn't have to fight for you, the inability to grasp this is fueling him and making you "want" to follow him). This is not the full answer though, and shouldn't be treated as such, that is not the intention of this thread either! If I could I would help every last one of those possessed. But it is done by love by the ones near, and the love within the individual.

Most people have experianced voices in the head, (not only thoughts, but spontanious voices), the difference is that they aren't that empowering over you, so you don't see it as a threat, but often it is in situations that you need advice. I got the drivers license last week, and when I drive in certain situations I can almost hear my teachers voice, also my fathers voice, repeating the advices I got in a similiar situation before. This 'hole in the filter' is probably needed because of such things, that others teachings sometimes should go past the filter and give you advice when it is needed. However like a computer can be open for hackers, so I believe that this hole can be a entry point for evil forces. It is believed that evil can only come in if they are invited, I have no support for this in the bible, but let's for a second assume that it is so. Cause there must be some restrictions for demons and such evil (or we would all be lunatics), could also be that most people are aware of this security hole, and are guarding it somehow (or just totally ignore everything that comes from it), could also be that our nature of sinning determines what restrictions and what resources the evil forces may have with us (however let us not stay too long wondering from their view) also of course how much we actually sin of what we are tempted (and how eager we are to change it for the better).

We should guard our "castle" (temple), it actually doesn't take much, you don't have to visualise yourself in a armor going about to destroy the enemy. If that was the case, would anyone make it? Once, twice, but your whole life?

Be on guard though, but don't expect too much, cause if you expect too much, you think that you need to do much more to face it.

The rules are made so there is a way to follow them, for anyone, for you.

--this is also one of the reasons why there is a importance for believing in God, that we are made to succeed, that we get justice in the end, and that is worth fighting for--

I know there is much injustice in the world. One that is self-knowing shouldn't have to die, it's not something that anyone should face, the fear of not knowing, cause in this life we will never know.

We live now, what is death compared to life?

Fear is like food for bad things. Not that fear in itself is bad for you, it keeps you from doing dangerous things, but since fear is unnatural in the greater schemes of things (we wouldn't be afraid if we lived with God) the evil can use it against us to make us do things that are sinful.

This is not something new, anyone that has been bullied knows about these things.

Fear can also be a motivation to keep sinning.

So fear is needed, but it shouldn't rule over us. Use your fear to keep you from doing harmful things (if you rob banks, use your fear in a way that keeps you from robbing banks, instead of using it as motivation to avoid getting caught, quitting robbing banks will also keep you from getting caught, for as long as you want - and without fear).

Life is hard, it isn't easy. Imagine having voices in your head telling you in the most demanding voice you have ever heard, so demanding that you can't keep yourself from following it. Not strange that some can mistaken it with God. But when it is God you will know, when it is evil, you will allways be unsure and feel uncertain. Evil uses fear, God uses truth. (I write this so that you can get a sense of the difference), I guess we should fear God, not fear Him, but fear for our inability to do what is right in His eyes, fear to do wrong against His (law)s. Fear because we know that He is the ultimate ruler. The creator of all things, visible and invisible.

However, God doesn't use this fear against us, He doesn't want us to follow Him because of fear, but because of love, because when we follow Him we do the right thing. That is my understanding of it (as is the rest in this post).

We shouldn't really have to build in disclaimers, people should trust eachother.

Would we have to lie if we did the right thing? How easy is it to defeat evil when you do it yourself? If you were to face it, would you be able? If someone got lost, could you lead him right?

We reep what we sow.

...and you're sowing shit.

...and you're sowing shit.You think?

Actually, what you say means nothing, since it is completly empty, and the closest I come to "shit" in the current state of this thread.

So, what's your story?

Wow, thats really good Cyperium...
One of the best post I've read in a while ...written from the heart too.
I apreciate that.
To be a "son" over your own house.....
That balance we arrive at in time by the grace of the Lord.
He fought and won the war....that makes the victory in our daily battles possible.
We learn how to let go, and get "ourselves" out of the way.....and He can operate through us.
God is glorified IN His people.

Cyperium's apparent delusions provide us with a good example for scientific study.

Robin Horton (1960) suggested that people turn to relationships outside "purely human society" when human relationships fail. Small, simple societies that are low in technological advancement are typically good at creating intimacy and political bonds within, but they have difficulty with prediction and control of their environments. Larger, more complex socities of high technological advantage are relatively impersonal: their individuals alienate one another and there is more separation from the familial level through to the state level. But these complex societies can predict and control their environments.

The small societies look to religion, therefore, for technical assistance with the weather, crops, pestilance, illness, etc. The larger societies turn to religion for personal relationships ("a personal relationship with God;" "Jesus is my co-pilot;" etc).

The main point of Horton, however, is that religion becomes an extension of human society. But the point that I draw from it is that religion is an anthropomorphism of humanity. Humans find themselves in other things, even to the point of animation.

Cyperium's rant above exemplifies this notion because of the recognition that humans need connection with others. If not a god, then demons. Both demons and gods are anthropomorphic in that we apply human characteristics and traits to their existences, but we also give them power over humanity in the form of magic (that imagined quality that doesn't exist in reality but provides imagined power to other things or entities).

Even "good" and "evil" can be inferred in Cyperium's post as anthropomorphic, existing as entities with intention and deliberation. The deities in Cyperium's imagination, therefore, become either "good" or "evil" and seek intentions that are either "good" or "evil."

The reality, of course, is that there are no apparent deities that control us, only our own need to enhance relationships with the imaginary where those that are real are absent. Perhaps what is missing in Cyperium's relationships is accountability. Surely the ability to pin misbehavior on a demon that is possessing him justifies his poor behavior (admittedly, I'm assuming that Cyperium is referring to himself with regard to possession); believing in demon possession appears to provide a motivation for making himself "think right" instead of entertaining "evil thoughts" or engaging in immoral behaviors. But if such behaviors or thoughts end up being tolerated, the believer need only release himself from accountability by blaming the resulting behavior on possession.

Doubtless, one such as Cyperium would argue that the accountability remains with the individual, since it was the individual's initial behavior, thoughts, or lack of faith in god that allowed the demon 'in.' This counter-argument is only minimally effective, however, because the "possessed" will still release himself from being accountable for his actions and redeem himself only with the condition that he or others acknowledge the behavior was the "demon" and not him.

Additionally, there are good medications that will keep your "demons" at bay, Cyperium. Prozac, Welbutrin, etc.

Reference:

Horton, Robin (1960). A definition of religion, and its uses. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, 90, pp. 201-226

Most people have experianced voices in the head, (not only thoughts, but spontanious voices),...

Oh? I was under the impression that most people do NOT experience distinct voices in their head. Please enlighten us with some research on this.

by skinwalker;....The reality, of course, is that there are no apparent deities that control us, only our own need to enhance relationships with the imaginary where those that are real are absent

You can wish that to be true....of course,
But it is not,....your body is a vessel.
You are a host...whiether you know it or not.
The nature in your very blood, i.e. your spirit, is at eminty, or "war" with the Spirit of God.
You are either resisting that nature....striving with God's spirit, crucifying the nature of flesh, having surrendered as a captive of the kingdom of God asking for His mercy, or you are a slave and captive of the kingdom of Satan..who is the "prince of the power of the air"
The only choice you have is which side you surrender to.

WOOT! A wiblle wobble dribble wobble spirit body a chuck puuka cakka sbuffle Him kerererererererereer werneerrrerevererrr aviviuvas Satan wat wibt nmmmm phhht

Which makes about as much sense.

Thanks Phlog!

Which makes about as much sense.

Thanks Phlog!

Actually, I think that made more sense, SW. :)

Cyperium,

Most people have experianced voices in the head, (not only thoughts, but spontanious voices),Umm, I don't think so. Certainly not something I have experienced. Do you have any support for the claim?

Cyperium,

Umm, I don't think so. Certainly not something I have experienced. Do you have any support for the claim?

superluminal also wondered if I had any support for the claim, I haven't got any other support than my memory. I read about it some time ago.

I will look it up and let you know, but it has little bearing in the case anyway.

There's at least 3 claims in the original post for which evidence must be provided for it to be taken as anything more than a fantasy.

Claim 1) God exists
Claim 2) Demons exist
Claim 3) Evil exists

Look forward to seeing the presentation.

Cyperium,

Umm, I don't think so. Certainly not something I have experienced. Do you have any support for the claim?

I would agree with Cyperium on this actually and I can support it. Everyone hallucinates on a nightly basis whether they remeber it or not. I am referring to dreams of course and in dreams, other characters will interact with you verbally. Considering this is all hallucination taking place internally, it is correct to asseret that not just most people but everyone has heard spontaneous voices in their head.

Which makes about as much sense.

Thanks Phlog!

Exactly

However, God doesn't use this fear against us, He doesn't want us to follow Him because of fear, but because of love

I'm going to ask you right now whether you'd really like to get into this. I will hereby give you the opportunity to show me every single instance where god says he wants you to follow him because of love, and I will then show you 10 times the amount showing that fear is what he really wants.

The first major instance was seen when Abraham's son was only saved because - and no, not because of love - Abraham feared god:

""Do not lay a hand on the boy.. do not do anything to him Now i know that you fear god..."

This is actually quite consistent in the bible. Fear is the ruling aspect, however - I give you the chance right here and right now to show that I am wrong. In the meantime I state that your claims are wrong. Completely wrong. Eagerly awaiting response.

Cyperium, to really explore the meaing of 'possession' we have to look at prepatriarchal mythologyand its rituals...TRYYY if you can read this, which will really explain much more in depth: From Orphism to Gnosticism www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/ukraine/231/dionysian/orphism.html

the term 'possession' is translated from the Greek term meaning 'ENTHUSIASM'. which was/is?

it is te feeling celebrants of te religion of Dionysos got after taking te psychedelic sacrament.

in their myth they believe the ctual psychedelic vegatative 'herb' they mized with their wine WAS the 'god of Nature', Dionysos. are you wil me? so they would feel 'hir' resurrected---tis is why godmen in te prepatriarchal myths---which Christianity ripped off--he wa 'Twice Born'---ie once As the acred 'plant' and once as the feeling of possession. AND tis is most most important to understand. this feeling wasn't tought of as bad, or evil, or even cathartic, but as CELEBRATORY

it is only when te more ascetic reformers (the Orphics) of tis originary Dionysianism take over is when tey divide the tew individual from him/her self by creating beliefe of a separation between matter and 'spirit'

Orphism was a MASSIVE influence on Christianity. wit this we get the idea of a separate 'God'/'all-good' creator and a 'Satan/Devil all-bad demon.........Are you getting tis. cause ican see this myth refelcted in how you speak. one could alost see you wit the angel on one shoulder and the demon ont other....!

this is really needing exploring ...really really. because what tis divisory belief does is...divides us up. we can feel under threat from 'evil' and take on the role of the all-good idea. do you see. we are in othe words playing out the patriarchal propaganda

UNDERstand tat Nature is benevolent/ ypu dont need to protect yourself from 'demons'......'demons' realy when you sexplore about all this are really aspects mof orself tat have been demonized by te fascistic patriarcy which pretends to be ...ever so fukin pure----. what it really is is autoritarian. wat do ou imagine tier war on drugs is bout?? war on drugs includes the very sacramentsour ancestors took before the patriarchs suppressed tis freedom of union with organism and arth and substituted a terrible psychological burden

also notice how Skinwalker spins you a differnt mode of tis patriarchal mode. one one hand he tells you notto believe in te patriarhal religious myt, and on the oter to belive in the patriarhal secular myth. which includes its myth of mental illness, and the drugs it DOES allow, so called 'medication'---which HARM the bodymind!!

Crunchy,

Dreams are essentially the result of synaptic protein replacement. Protein is consumed as synapses fire (connections between neurons). During sleep and dreaming the synapses are replenished with fresh protein and that process causes random firings. The brain attempts to interpret the random firings and the results are dreams.

Similar results can occur using recreational drugs and even nicotein, all of which affect the way the synapses behave.

None of which are the result of external forces or supernatural voices.

I have no trouble recognzing dreams and I certainly don't see them as voices talking to me no more than when I recall any memory of a conversation during normal wake time.

I'd say that the perception of possession resulting in negative activity is no more than simple emotional imbalance, i.e. entirely natural.

Cyperium,

Early perceptions of possesion came from the idea that spirits were airborn and that one could breathe in an evil spirit. This was further supported by the idea that the 'soul' was your breath which of course left the body when the body died.

All of these ideas were born out of sheer ignorance of human physiology. We know better now and the idea of possession is as hilariously idiotic as the concept of souls.

Hey Cris,

Crunchy,

Dreams are essentially the result of synaptic protein replacement. Protein is consumed as synapses fire (connections between neurons). During sleep and dreaming the synapses are replenished with fresh protein and that process causes random firings. The brain attempts to interpret the random firings and the results are dreams.

Similar results can occur using recreational drugs and even nicotein, all of which affect the way the synapses behave.

This is correct and consequently not all there is to it. Take lucid dreaming for example. People can recognize they are dreaming and directly influence the dream's content in very predictable ways.


None of which are the result of external forces or supernatural voices.

I would say the latter is very true as the supernatural doesn't appear to exist. Regarding the former, transcranial magnetic stimulation (an external device) can cause hallucination. Thats technically an external force.


I have no trouble recognzing dreams and I certainly don't see them as voices talking to me no more than when I recall any memory of a conversation during normal wake time.

Most people don't have trouble recognizing dreams. They are nonetheless hallucinations, regardless the mechanics, and the content of those hallucination includes voices. How you choose to view the experience of interacting with a dream character verbally doesn't discount that all of it occured in your head.


I'd say that the perception of possession resulting in negative activity is no more than simple emotional imbalance, i.e. entirely natural.

I agree that emotional imbalance can be a cause. I would also assert that poor timing of various parts of the brain can throw things out of sync and give rise to cognitive and interpretation imbalance that can also lead to the perception of posession.

The main point I did want to make however is that regardless of the cause, everyone has experienced voices in their head without exception. The context that Cyperium is working in is the supernatural and the original objection to his assertion of most people experiencing voices didn't include that context.

Cyperium,

Early perceptions of possesion came from the idea that spirits were airborn and that one could breathe in an evil spirit. This was further supported by the idea that the 'soul' was your breath which of course left the body when the body died.

All of these ideas were born out of sheer ignorance of human physiology. We know better now and the idea of possession is as hilariously idiotic as the concept of souls.Aren't you "possessing" your body?

What about people with multiple personality disorder? Are the personalities aware as is he/she who has them? Then shouldn't that count as actual possession?

Since the person who has this disorder perceive him-/herself as being in the background while the other personalities is acting it effectivly discounts that it is just he/she that "switch" personality, and also shows that it is a actual possession where the persons body is taken over.

The real question which would prefferably be answered "yes" is "are the other personalities aware of themselves?".

Why it would be preffered? Because we allways assume that other people are aware of themselves, why stop when the other people exist in one body?

There's at least 3 claims in the original post for which evidence must be provided for it to be taken as anything more than a fantasy.

Claim 1) God exists
Claim 2) Demons exist
Claim 3) Evil exists

Look forward to seeing the presentation.I don't have any evidence of 1 and 2.

Then again there is no evidence that you are aware either. Are you?

We are talking about spiritual things here, you can see some "marks" these spiritual things may have left on the world, the fine-adjustment of the laws enabling life (and the universe), that everything is logical, that spirituality is needed (and that having a sense of higher meaning is also needed), that love and hate and all the feelings we have has a sensible concept throughout our life and we can't imagine any other feelings. (meaning what? that they are the only ones that can be felt? or that they are the only ones needed to face life?).

We are talking about spiritual things here, ...

Actually, we're talking about the human tendency to delude itself into believing that there is such a thing as "spirituality." This delusion is almost universal in humanity and we see in everyday life of every culture in the way we animate other objects and creatures.

A fireman will comment on how a fire was particularly "sneaky" or a criminalist will announce "found you" to a particular piece of evidence. Cars are depicted with "faces (http://www.clipartreview.com/_gallery/_LG/2046520.jpg) and, indeed, all vehicles have a symetry about them that mimics the animal world. Cars are given names like jaguar, cougar, mustang, etc. Planes have been called camels, moths, birds, ships are named after women and so on. Pilots of planes even paint snarling teeth on their noses. Truck drivers put grill covers of the same theme on the fronts of their semi's. Hurricanes are given human names and storms in general are said to have "fury" and to possess a certain amount of deliberation.

"Mother Nature" is an example that needs no further explanation and brings us to the point: humanity sees inanimate or natural objects and forces as animate. And why not, we jump when we see a bit of motion when walking through the woods; we startle at a stick in a path that looks like a snake; we can find shapes in clouds and form in star constellations. These are all versions of Pascal's Wager -their bets. Safe bets. One reacts to the blade of grass stroking a leg as though it were a spider. Relief and a slight feeling of silliness is felt after the grass is noticed, but if it were a genuine spider, congratulations for quick reaction is the feeling. Likewise if the stick were a snake or the motion were a bear. Over-reacting is a natural condition and one that H. sapiens were probably selected for.

But that same tendency to animate the world around us does more than provide us with human names and intentions for weather events or animalistic qualities of speed and power that come with the name Mustang for an automobile. This naturally selected trait comes at a price: we believe erroneously that the universe around us is inhabited by "spirits" and that we, too, have "spirits" that carry on after death.

And we apply this fallacy to the very universe itself by acknowledging that the very fact that we live and think implies that a omniscent, omnipotent being must have put it all into motion by some grand design. That bit of fallacious thought only creates a new problem: who designed the designer?

What this thread is about isn't whether or not Cyperium is genuinely "possessed." Its about the human system of beliefs that finds a need to claim this to be factual even though there is not one shred of evidence. That's what this thread is about. I think we must thank Cyperium for sharing his delusions with us so that we may look at the scientific explanations for religious thought in context.

Cyperium's apparent delusions provide us with a good example for scientific study.

Robin Horton (1960) suggested that people turn to relationships outside "purely human society" when human relationships fail. Small, simple societies that are low in technological advancement are typically good at creating intimacy and political bonds within, but they have difficulty with prediction and control of their environments. Larger, more complex socities of high technological advantage are relatively impersonal: their individuals alienate one another and there is more separation from the familial level through to the state level. But these complex societies can predict and control their environments.

The small societies look to religion, therefore, for technical assistance with the weather, crops, pestilance, illness, etc. The larger societies turn to religion for personal relationships ("a personal relationship with God;" "Jesus is my co-pilot;" etc).

The main point of Horton, however, is that religion becomes an extension of human society. But the point that I draw from it is that religion is an anthropomorphism of humanity. Humans find themselves in other things, even to the point of animation.You mean that religion is like a image to describe human relations? A analogy?

Cyperium's rant above exemplifies this notion because of the recognition that humans need connection with others. If not a god, then demons. Both demons and gods are anthropomorphic in that we apply human characteristics and traits to their existences, but we also give them power over humanity in the form of magic (that imagined quality that doesn't exist in reality but provides imagined power to other things or entities).The recognition that humans can be very evil or good towards eachother gives the idea that there are something that this evil or goodness comes from, not only that but also that there are a pure form of good and a pure form of evil that is much worse than any human evil and much better than any human form of good.

This is why it appears anthropomorphic to you.

There are a constant stream of indications that go along with our daily lives that shows that there are a higher meaning. Also that we can imagine good and bad allows us to exaggerate these characteristics to come closer to the ultimate good and ultimate bad. We may be tempted to imagine the ultimate good to be "dumb" since it is so easy for some people to take advantage on people that are kind, but since the ultimate good can't be dumb since it ultimatly wouldn't be good if so, then we got to put other characteristics to describe it, like responsibility and intelligence etc.

It isn't just goodness and badness that we do this with, it's also love and hate, fear and trust, etc. etc.

The thing is, that there are only one reality, it wouldn't be nice if there wasn't a God in that reality, it wouldn't be nice if we didn't get a chance to live forever either, since it could be seen as rather meaningless if we only got to live this life (since after we lived it there are no return).

Things just got to be meaningful, there are a reason why things exist.





Even "good" and "evil" can be inferred in Cyperium's post as anthropomorphic, existing as entities with intention and deliberation. The deities in Cyperium's imagination, therefore, become either "good" or "evil" and seek intentions that are either "good" or "evil."So you think that imagination can become alive? That people you imagine in your mind may become alive and act by themselves?

What is it that is needed for a person that before was fully controlled by you to become alive and controlled by itself?



The reality, of course, is that there are no apparent deities that control us, only our own need to enhance relationships with the imaginary where those that are real are absent.I don't think many christians want to do that, since our faith in God in one way depends on Truth and the inability for us to reach it. If I were to just imagine some imaginary concept where those that are real is missing I would feel very lost, and out of track. Since I know the great many possibilities that I have to imagine against (to find the idea that leads to the truth).



Perhaps what is missing in Cyperium's relationships is accountability. Surely the ability to pin misbehavior on a demon that is possessing him justifies his poor behavior (admittedly, I'm assuming that Cyperium is referring to himself with regard to possession); believing in demon possession appears to provide a motivation for making himself "think right" instead of entertaining "evil thoughts" or engaging in immoral behaviors. But if such behaviors or thoughts end up being tolerated, the believer need only release himself from accountability by blaming the resulting behavior on possession.First and foremost, I don't believe myself to be possessed, I'm talking about a occurance which I'm not sure happened to me as a child or if it was just an idea that I had. The thing is that there was a strong connection with that idea to the reality of those that are possessed. That which I'm talking about now. Your "analyse" of me as a person isn't quite right, though I have had troubles with my relationships I have relationships that are inherently good and where we trust eachother to a very high degree. I understand why you would think using possession as a alibi is a great idea, but that's not the case with me, since it is my responsibility of changing bad behaviours (which I am trying to do) even if that means that I pray to God in order for Him to help me with whatever bad behaviour I am trying to change.

However, I got to ask, if someone took over your body and made you do horrible things (while you are in the background and can't do anything) would you still feel the same way about this? Sure you might take the punishment that comes, but would you really feel responsible? Maybe you wouldn't even recognise that it was your own bad behaviour that started it? How then to change your life so it won't happen again?

Actually, we're talking about the human tendency to delude itself into believing that there is such a thing as "spirituality." This delusion is almost universal in humanity and we see in everyday life of every culture in the way we animate other objects and creatures.

A fireman will comment on how a fire was particularly "sneaky" or a criminalist will announce "found you" to a particular piece of evidence. Cars are depicted with "faces (http://www.clipartreview.com/_gallery/_LG/2046520.jpg) and, indeed, all vehicles have a symetry about them that mimics the animal world. Cars are given names like jaguar, cougar, mustang, etc. Planes have been called camels, moths, birds, ships are named after women and so on. Pilots of planes even paint snarling teeth on their noses. Truck drivers put grill covers of the same theme on the fronts of their semi's. Hurricanes are given human names and storms in general are said to have "fury" and to possess a certain amount of deliberation.

"Mother Nature" is an example that needs no further explanation and brings us to the point: humanity sees inanimate or natural objects and forces as animate. And why not, we jump when we see a bit of motion when walking through the woods; we startle at a stick in a path that looks like a snake; we can find shapes in clouds and form in star constellations. These are all versions of Pascal's Wager -their bets. Safe bets. One reacts to the blade of grass stroking a leg as though it were a spider. Relief and a slight feeling of silliness is felt after the grass is noticed, but if it were a genuine spider, congratulations for quick reaction is the feeling. Likewise if the stick were a snake or the motion were a bear. Over-reacting is a natural condition and one that H. sapiens were probably selected for.

But that same tendency to animate the world around us does more than provide us with human names and intentions for weather events or animalistic qualities of speed and power that come with the name Mustang for an automobile. This naturally selected trait comes at a price: we believe erroneously that the universe around us is inhabited by "spirits" and that we, too, have "spirits" that carry on after death.

And we apply this fallacy to the very universe itself by acknowledging that the very fact that we live and think implies that a omniscent, omnipotent being must have put it all into motion by some grand design. That bit of fallacious thought only creates a new problem: who designed the designer?

What this thread is about isn't whether or not Cyperium is genuinely "possessed." Its about the human system of beliefs that finds a need to claim this to be factual even though there is not one shred of evidence. That's what this thread is about. I think we must thank Cyperium for sharing his delusions with us so that we may look at the scientific explanations for religious thought in context.That we see human traits in nature and the universe is also a way of feeling "at home", familiarity. Surely our exaggeration towards dangerous things have proven to be a good way to enable fast reactions, we aren't perfect after all and we need this to stay alive.

The projection of our own feelings towards nature is also happening with sound, I hear the ear send out a tune that harmonise with the sound we are looking for so that it gets enhanced, so it is easy to "hallucinate" a bear while looking for a bear, when we really only see a shadow or hear a crack.

But this is easily seen for what it is, and has allways been (from what I know based on what I experiance now, we weren't THAT different you know).

When we see fire behaving as a human would I guess we are trying to forsee it's behaviour by using something that we are familiar with and that are close to the current behaviour of the fire. That there are visible human traits in fire and the way it behaves just shows that there are a certain harmony amongst all things in the universe. That evolution provided us with this talent just shows that there were a benefit of doing so (trying to predict non-alive behaviour using the scheme of our own alive one).

I may be wrong about this, but it's interesting to ponder.

Skinwalker......it is remarkable actually----you seem to think. contrary to my own view, that te general mindset of our culture is animist....???
and tis, because people address abjects, have teddys, see and makew faces on planes, cars etc etc etc...hmmmmm
maybe, is is so in a way. but the general SCIENTIFICmainstream mindset isn't that is it? it' materialistic, like you are showing, agreed. maybe people do what you say for comfort in a 'meaningless' world, made meaningless by a materialistic philosophy, what do you think?

Also, you said that it was believed 'of old',and by te modern people tat objects are animate and from that concept believe they have an animate spirit inside them,,,and that te very universe has a spirit behind IT

Now i can dig this, ad have explored this in my own way. from what i hafe gleaned. going waaaay back was primal animisitc insight tat an undifferentiated pirit was immanent. but for reasons not knows--from my memory at this time anyhow, maybein me notes somewhere.---, from this came about the idea of sirits @BEHIND' things, wind, rain, moon, river, stream. ...and the biggie , the universe where such concepts like mono-theism comes from

So i tink you are confusing the former wit the latter stages,if you see what mean. i mean yu have heard me explore about panpsychism, right? well i mean that matter-energy is sentient. not tat there are spiritis behind things, or gods behind things. THOUGH imagnation ca experience this, no doubt

As for te idea of being possessed. sometime back at these forums i started a thread about 'serial killing'. inspied by a powerful docu. all about one. he explained,wit drawings what it was like before a killing. he siad he felt like a 'meat-puppet' which he called a name---have forgotten, said he felt totally possessed, and when killing was done very relaxed

NOW. how are we to understand tis really dramatic phenomenon. are we to --as come fundamental and even not-fundamental rewligiosts--believe he waspossessed by a demon? by te Devil' or are we t see it as an aspect of hiself that has taken over his moral judgements, feeling. compassion. with me? how would you interpret what happened to tat serial killer from your perspective?

I don't have any evidence of 1 and 2.
Then again there is no evidence that you are aware either. Are you?

None whatsoever. Same for #3 on my end... I've seen no evidence that 'evil' exists. You?


We are talking about spiritual things here, you can see some "marks" these spiritual things may have left on the world, the fine-adjustment of the laws enabling life (and the universe), that everything is logical, that spirituality is needed (and that having a sense of higher meaning is also needed), that love and hate and all the feelings we have has a sensible concept throughout our life and we can't imagine any other feelings. (meaning what? that they are the only ones that can be felt? or that they are the only ones needed to face life?).

When we talk about things they either exist or they dont. I have yet to see any evidence for the existence of 'spiritual' anything. I have seen evidence that humans do need things... 'spirituality' is an example of how to fulfill that need and that does doesn't mean that 'spiritual' exists. My observations have shown me that the needs 'spirituality' fulfills are strong relationships with others ('belief' in something being the common ground) and with one's self (frequently referred to as 'God'). I don't quite understand what was meant by higher meaning however. To my knowledge, meaning is the relationships between 1 or more variables and 'higher' and 'lower' are relative terms to a perspective in an environment with firm relative position.

Your assertion about feelings was quite insightful. It's not impossible to imagine different feelings could exists and it's difficult to imagine (but not impossible) the experience of a different feeling. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation can remove a person's sense of self and simultaneously produce a fantastic hallucinagenic experience that applies to emotions as well (i.e. you can feel states that aren't part of daily life).

I suspect there is a larger spectrum of potential feelings that simply don't exist in humans because they don't promote survival in our environment. Reality would support this. For example. When we see light, we are seeing a vary tiny range. Anything outside that range is invisible to us but it does exist. Fortunately we're smart enough to create tools that can see the other wavelengths and translate it into stimulus humans can perceive.

Reminds me of down in Arkansas here, some years ago. I was at Little Rock, Arkansas, in a meeting. And there was a--we was up like something on the order of this in the auditorium. And there was a basement beneath.
And Mr. G. H. Brown, Little Rock, Arkansas, a pastor there of the Apostolic church (505 Victor Street, if you'd like to write him for the testimony.), and he said to me; he said, "Brother Branham, you might seen a many a sight, but you never seen nothing likes down in the basement."
I said, "What is it?"
Said, "It's a woman, a maniac." Said, "You ought to see her."

So when I got a little space, time, between the time of preaching, and the--the sick, praying for the sick, I went down the basement to see the woman. They'd put her in there. And she'd just about tore up the church when they brought her in, or the building where they were at. And they had her down there and some... Her husband standing on the--the steps as you went down, a very typical old Arkansas brother: his shirt patched, and everything as they... going down the steps... And I said, "How do you do, sir."
He said, "You're Brother Branham?"
I said, "I am."
And he said, "I was just listening to your sermon through the P. A. system."
And I said, "It's your wife that's sick?"
He said, "Yes, sir. She's been in the insane institution for two years now."
I said, "Why, it's too bad."
Said, "Brother Branham, she's a good woman." Said, "We got five little children, and got one child here about three years old." And said, "The doctor give her a shot, and it run her crazy. Something was wrong." That was the doctor's mistake. Nothing said about that, but--but anyhow... I'm not criticizing the doctor, but sometimes medicine kills too, the same as it helps, you see but that's all...

Sometime ago there was some woman, Christian Science woman, trusted the Lord for her baby, and it died in California. All across the nation, within twenty-four hours time, every paper, magazine: "Oh, you see it? You see what I mean? See what I mean? There it is. It's--it--Divine healing, you can't trust it. See there, what it is? That's what it does. That baby died." Well, they're always trying to point somebody to a someone who went a little too far, and they never think about the one that didn't go far enough.
Listen the--there's an old saying and it's... And I don't mean it for a expression of this, but sauce for the goose, is for the gander. At the same time that that woman was--sent--that paper was going across this nation, there was ten thousand died under medical treatment. So if you have to brand one not to be trusted, then let's brand the other one not to be trusted. That's right. So I would do both and say, "Trust the Lord Jesus Christ." That's right. Is... But there you are.

So at the--this time the doctor give her a shot for premature menopause, and it had gone to her head, and she'd been in a institution ten years. And so they would... She was in a terrible shape. And I looked over on the floor, and there she was laying out there. They had her dressed in the way that... She hadn't been off her back for two years. Her--her limbs were sticking right up like this, arms and legs. And she was bleeding all over her limbs and arms. And I said, "What's she bleeding about?"
Said, "Brother Branham," said, "I--I had to bring her down here tonight," said, "in a car." Said, "The ambulance wouldn't dare to bring her. And I had a brother... And there's four of us come and got in the car and one drove." And said, "She kicked all the glasses out of his car." So that's...
I said, "My..."

Said, "Brother Branham, we got a little baby--home." Said, "I--I..." Said, "I've sold my mules. I've sold everything. And I've give her all the treatments that they could, and the shock treatments and," said, "there she lays in that condition." And said, "I--I don't know." Said, "I heard of a woman being healed (that was that woman from Meridian, Brother--Brother Jack, that was healed out of the institution, ten years in the insane institution.) So he said, "Well, I just brought her over."
And I said, "Well, I will pray for her, brother." And I stepped off the steps like that and started out.
He said, "Oh, Brother Branham, don't go out there." Said, "She'd kill you."
And I said, "Oh, I think not." I was just a boy then. And so I walked out there, and she act like she was holding her hand out to me like that. And I said, "How do you do." And she never... Just batting her eyes (laying there), real glassy looking. And I took hold of her hand to shake her hand. And if God hadn't have been with me, the man would've been right. She give me a great big pull like that, and my... People that's possessed with the evil spirit is ten times, almost, their power.

And if the devil, with full possession of a person can make them that many times stronger than their actual strength, what will God do when He's got full possession of you, like that? What could He do? He'd make the cripple arms come out straight. He can make the person that never walked, walk again. He make the sight push through that cataract yonder, till you can see natural again and... Why He's powerful and wonderful. All powers in heavens and earth belongs to Him.
And this woman, in that condition, she give me a big jerk. And my foot here, just caught right across her bosom, or she'd a just threw me across the floor. And I jerked--jerked my hand loose, and I--I--I run back and jumped up on the step, and here she come following me, dragging her body, making good time chasing me like a serpent across the floor. Just drag, drag, like that. And she pulled right up close, and a blowing just like a snake, "Ssss, ssss..." [Brother Branham illustrates--Ed.]
Well, I looked at her, and I thought, "I have never seen anything like that." And so, then she turned around and put her great big strong limbs against the wall and kicked like that, and there's a bench setting there, and she hit her head against the bench, and--and a piece flew off of it. And the blood come out of her head; hair was left on there. And she was laughing real hideous like, "Hee-hee-hee-hee, hee-hee." [Brother Branham illustrates--Ed.]

And I said, "My..." And she took that piece of board in her hand and threw it at her husband, just knocked the plastering from the wall. And I said, "Well, that's terrible." I said, "Well..."
He said, "Brother Branham, you see what I mean?" Said, "Is there anything can be done?" And he started crying, put his head over on my shoulder.
And I said, "Yes, sir. Jesus Christ can heal her."
He said, "Why, Brother Branham," he said, "what must I do?"
I said, "Just believe." I said, "I'm--I can stand here and pray for her if you... I'm--I'll tell you, I don't know whether to go out and put my hands on her again or not." I said, "But if you will believe, that--that--that Jesus will make her well, I'll pray from right here."
He said, "Brother Branham, I will believe."

And about that time she turned around and said, "William Branham, you ain't got nothing to do with me. I brought her here."
Well, her husband said, "Brother Branham, what's happened to her?" Said, "That's the first words she's spoke in two years." Said, "She don't even know her own name. She don't know nothing."
I said, "That's not her. That's that demon. See? That's him speaking out. See?" I said, "See, that's the way..."
And he said, "Well, I--I'm alarmed."
And I said, "It is alarming." And I said, "Just have faith now. And let's put our arms around each other."
And I raised up to heaven. I said, "Heavenly Father, I pray that you will heal the woman. And Satan, in the Name of the Lord Jesus, you leave her."
He said, "What must I do?"
I went on back upstairs. He said, "What must I do?"
I said, "Take her on back to the institution. See what they say about it. What do you believe?"
He said, "I believe if that other woman got well, my wife will too."
I said, "That's the way to do it. That's it."

And then about three weeks later--four... I was up at Jonesboro, Arkansas, and I was in a--a tabernacle, and I had one or two nights service there. And I kept seeing somebody waving at me, setting out like that. And I never noticed them. And whole lot of little children there, and kept waving. After while, the lady just couldn't stand it any more. She said, "Brother Branham, don't you know me?"
And I said, "No, ma'am."
She said, "Last..." Said, "This is the first time I remember seeing you." Said, "I was on my back over here at Little Rock."
I said, "You're not the lady?"
Her husband said, "Let me tell it, honey." So he got up, and the little children with their arms around their mother, and all of them... They said they taken her back to--to the institution. Never had a bit of trouble with her. The next morning when they went to look at her, she was setting up. Three days later she was dismissed, normal, in her right mind.

Brother Moore, and I was down in San Bernardino, California, and I was relating that before several thousand people, and the lady raised up, said, "Don't you still remember me, Brother Branham?" her and her husband... And they sold their farm and he's preaching the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
When Jesus comes, all things that's wrong straightens out and becomes right. So let's ask Him to come tonight, our lovely One. When He was here on earth, the things that He did, He knew what was wrong with the people. He said, "I can do nothing till the Father shows me," Saint John 5:19. When they questioned about all those cripples, why He didn't heal them and so forth... He healed one man laying on a pallet. Why, the Father showed Him where the man was and told Him what to do. He said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the Son can do nothing in Himself, but what He sees the Father doing... And what the Father doeth, that doeth the Son likewise." He...

You're a fucking idiot, visitor; just in case noone's told you lately. :)

You're a fucking idiot, visitor; just in case noone's told you lately. :D

I second that! :p

Cype, before you jump into any conclusions of "posesions" you really must study schizophrenia!.

Voices in our heads (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/spoofs/voices_in_our_head.htm)

Who hears voices in their head? (http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/26724)

Belief in the possibility of demonic possession has waned since the advent of sophisticated medical knowledge. What had previously been considered to be examples of control of an individual by a spirit or devil are now commonly accepted as numerous forms of mental illness, easily explained by nervous system activity. click (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web3/Bromwell.html)

I think that's enough references to my claims. ;)

Godless

Are those your own words, TheVisitor, or are they plagiarised?

I'd say he's a goddamn plagerist. http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=188

If I thought there was a god.

His original post included the little "E" codes, which is still in the original that was sent to me via email notification. E-38 038 So when I got a little space, time, between the time of preaching, and the--the sick, praying for the sick, I went down the basement to see the woman. They'd put her in there. And she'd just about tore up the church when they brought her in, or the building where they were at. And they had her down there and some... Her husband standing on the--the steps as you went down, a very typical old Arkansas brother: his shirt patched, and everything as they... going down the steps... And I said, "How do you do, sir."
He said, "You're Brother Branham?"
I said, "I am." The fact that he went back and edited within a minute or so of posting is evidence that he knew he was stealing the work of someone else and didn't want it to be obvious. The Visitor is a freakin' thief, and a liar since he attempted to deceive us all.

Like Twiki said, "way ta go, Buck."

"Mr. Thevisitor, what you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in the room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

i thought this was an appropriate quote for this situation.

None whatsoever. Same for #3 on my end... I've seen no evidence that 'evil' exists. You?



When we talk about things they either exist or they dont. I have yet to see any evidence for the existence of 'spiritual' anything. I have seen evidence that humans do need things... 'spirituality' is an example of how to fulfill that need and that does doesn't mean that 'spiritual' exists. My observations have shown me that the needs 'spirituality' fulfills are strong relationships with others ('belief' in something being the common ground) and with one's self (frequently referred to as 'God'). I don't quite understand what was meant by higher meaning however. To my knowledge, meaning is the relationships between 1 or more variables and 'higher' and 'lower' are relative terms to a perspective in an environment with firm relative position.

Your assertion about feelings was quite insightful. It's not impossible to imagine different feelings could exists and it's difficult to imagine (but not impossible) the experience of a different feeling. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation can remove a person's sense of self and simultaneously produce a fantastic hallucinagenic experience that applies to emotions as well (i.e. you can feel states that aren't part of daily life).

I suspect there is a larger spectrum of potential feelings that simply don't exist in humans because they don't promote survival in our environment. Reality would support this. For example. When we see light, we are seeing a vary tiny range. Anything outside that range is invisible to us but it does exist. Fortunately we're smart enough to create tools that can see the other wavelengths and translate it into stimulus humans can perceive.Translate it into the spectrum we are familiar with allready, but no new colors are found, they are just the ordinary "representing" the new ones.

When it comes to colors, I would be really, really impressed if scientists could stimulate a new one just as unique as the others.

I think we are in a different situation, it is complete, and allthough you can use Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation it would only be a mixture of the same feelings, surely some of those feelings are rarely experianced but there are room for those too in reality, but they are rather available in a "when planets align" circumstance. Also what is experianced in reality is "tagged" with a higher meaning than what is experianced with machines or imagination. Even though it may feel fantastic the sight of the machine will take away the pleasure, cause it wasn't real after all.

That is, it would be experianced as such for me (I've allready mixtured with those things (no, not machines :m: ) and I know my position).

:D

I second that! :p

Cype, before you jump into any conclusions of "posesions" you really must study schizophrenia!.

Voices in our heads (http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/spoofs/voices_in_our_head.htm)

Who hears voices in their head? (http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/26724)

click (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web3/Bromwell.html)

I think that's enough references to my claims. ;)

GodlessGodless...

I know enough about the secular view on things, the atmosphere in Swedish society is very secular, from school we never learn more than enough, in the religion class we talked about moral dilemmas instead of religion, and when we indeed talked about religion it wasn't christianity, we have to be brave to admit our beliefs, though people are starting to rise up, it is far from enough. You can see this kind of secularisation with the Denmark Muhammed images. The secularisation can be best seen in the job environment where efficiency and product are the number one rule. They are becoming more and more like computers and society is becoming more and more like the moon.

And your background teaches What exactly? You leave me dazed and confused witht that answer you gave. You still can't explain "possesions" not to be mentally ill, mentally disturbed, so when you don't accept the secular scientific answers, you make up your own BS and call it "possesion of spirit" WTF is that?

Godless

Are those your own words, TheVisitor, or are they plagiarised?

Yes, this post is a taken from a tape recorded message from a personal experiance of another person...not me.
Very Good.
I never meant to imply this was myself, but it is an eyewitness account of a case of possession.
Notice the negative responce from all the "skeptics" and the like, I think it may have enraged some sympathetic demons in them....too bad.

Translate it into the spectrum we are familiar with allready, but no new colors are found, they are just the ordinary "representing" the new ones.

This is true and it's because our eyes have limitations. The important part is that something is there that is unique. We just don't have the capacity to see it unless it's translated into something we can.


When it comes to colors, I would be really, really impressed if scientists could stimulate a new one just as unique as the others.

Me too. If the brain is capable of interpreting more colors then it might be a simple matter of inducing the right electrical signals. If it's non-capable then there's gonna' have to be quite a feat of genetic engineering there.


I think we are in a different situation, it is complete, and allthough you can use Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation it would only be a mixture of the same feelings, surely some of those feelings are rarely experianced but there are room for those too in reality, but they are rather available in a "when planets align" circumstance. Also what is experianced in reality is "tagged" with a higher meaning than what is experianced with machines or imagination. Even though it may feel fantastic the sight of the machine will take away the pleasure, cause it wasn't real after all.

People whom have been part of TMS experiments that have experienced altered states have reported alot of uniqueness to those states. Maybe it's a combination of feelings and they are not recognizing it for that; however, I certainly couldn't make any firm assertion of that. Technically, a TMS machine is just as real as anything else in reality and the sight of a machine wont necessarily take pleasure away from folks.


That is, it would be experianced as such for me (I've allready mixtured with those things (no, not machines :m: ) and I know my position).

What types of experiences have you partaken in so far?

And your background teaches What exactly? You leave me dazed and confused witht that answer you gave. You still can't explain "possesions" not to be mentally ill, mentally disturbed, so when you don't accept the secular scientific answers, you make up your own BS and call it "possesion of spirit" WTF is that?

GodlessIt teaches that I allready know of the secular views as described by you and the links you gave.

Nothing there to suggest who is speaking those voices, even if some are imaginations there is a possibility that some might not be. If so then what is giving the voice has an identity and is aware, something that even science must admit are things that can exist.

Ask yourself, does it really take that much?

Nothing there to suggest who is speaking those voices, even if some are imaginations there is a possibility that some might not be.

If its in your head, it's produced by chemical inbalance. Its completely subjective, no internal possesion exists, only in your head, man once heard voices in their head, they called these voices "god" Today we call them Schizophrenics.

If so then what is giving the voice has an identity and is aware, something that even science must admit are things that can exist.

What is giving these voices identity is their own head. There's no real proof of MPD multiple personality disoder, but in essense this is what is really going on! HOW do I know? Cause I'm a survivor!. ;)

MPD (http://skepdic.com/mpd.html)

exorcism (http://skepdic.com/exorcism.html)

Godless

If its in your head, it's produced by chemical inbalance. Its completely subjective, no internal possesion exists, only in your head, man once heard voices in their head, they called these voices "god" Today we call them Schizophrenics.Could there be another subjective in it's own right aside from ourselves? Could there be another awareness in the same body, but only at times strong enough to take control?

If not, why couldn't it be?

If there is a possibility, how would that differ from possesion? As a matter of fact, aren't we possessing our body?




What is giving these voices identity is their own head. There's no real proof of MPD multiple personality disoder, but in essense this is what is really going on! HOW do I know? Cause I'm a survivor!. ;)

MPD (http://skepdic.com/mpd.html)

exorcism (http://skepdic.com/exorcism.html)

GodlessWhat I heard, we have a filter that translates thoughts so that they sound like thoughts from the inside, but if that filter is damaged the thoughts might sound as if they came from the outside. I know of these things, and many other things as they are very interesting.

Maybe some people attribute themselves the characteristics of being a multiple, but somehow the idea must have come to their attention before seeing any doctors and such who could have affected them. Right?

What we are talking about are different viewpoints, a medical and a psychological, also a phenomenal.

The medical is what happens in the brain chemistry and such and isn't really that interesting for me, since it don't open that many doors to what happens within as we poorly are able to translate these happenings into realities within psychology and phenomenon.

The psychology part is more interesting for me since it tells us about possible scenarios that may bring these things to be. While in great evil it is understandable that a person withdraws himself and in that moment allows someone else to take his place, and if this continues too often it will happen allthough no great evil is present (or something to that effect at least).

The phenomenal part is even more interesting for me, but more subtle since it deals with the actual things that happen. The reality of it so to say. This is where the other personalities could have awareness and thoughts all on their own, while in normal state not in control of the subject, but in a reality all of their own. Those with MPD have described it as looking on a theatre while the other person controls your life, they are in the background.

If the identities are aware or not is hard to say, since we can't judge that by looking at other people either (even though we should assume they are aware).

It's hard for me to understand though, why you seem to think that they can't be aware, or even hard to understand why you would think it is absurd to think so. Since we know that awareness is a familiar characteristic of any person, would it be so hard to stretch that into identities within a person?


Just some thoughts.

Could there be another subjective in it's own right aside from ourselves? Could there be another awareness in the same body, but only at times strong enough to take control?

If not, why couldn't it be?

The correct question is "if so, why should it be?"

One's cognitive awareness comes from the neurons and synapses that fire in the brain. The brain is one's own. There are not the brain's of others that have been shown to co-exist in a single body. It has been shown, however, that neural pathways can become damaged or faulty in the brain, presenting all sorts of problems such as not recognizing yourself in a mirror, losing control over limbs that may even attempt to strangle the individual, believing one's parents are impostors, or thinking that one's missing/amputated limb can still feel pain or even touch objects.

This isn't due to "another awareness" in the same body, but due to faulty/damaged neural pathways.

There is no such thing as "demon possession" or "possession" by others of the individual. It simply doesn't happen. Nor can it at current levels of technology.

The correct question is "if so, why should it be?"

One's cognitive awareness comes from the neurons and synapses that fire in the brain. The brain is one's own. There are not the brain's of others that have been shown to co-exist in a single body. It has been shown, however, that neural pathways can become damaged or faulty in the brain, presenting all sorts of problems such as not recognizing yourself in a mirror, losing control over limbs that may even attempt to strangle the individual, believing one's parents are impostors, or thinking that one's missing/amputated limb can still feel pain or even touch objects.

This isn't due to "another awareness" in the same body, but due to faulty/damaged neural pathways.

There is no such thing as "demon possession" or "possession" by others of the individual. It simply doesn't happen. Nor can it at current levels of technology.You asked, why should it happen?

If we grant that MPD's does exists and that they are not liars then it is true to say that they have multiple personalities (or identities) within themselves. Their awareness of what is happening is in the background or perhaps they are not aware at all.

If you talked to such a person, while having this other identity, would you not think he/she is aware? Even though subjectivally the identity that should be the one talking to you is in the background, or not aware at all.

Sometimes that person is subjectivally aware that the other identities exists, and may even talk to them, as imagined as it sounds, it becomes real when that person is taken over.