http://www.theage.com.au/news/arts/poetry-as-medicine/2007/02/01/1169919470973.html?page=4

I STOPPED BELIEVING IN GOD six years ago. To say I woke up one morning with the realisation that religion is bunk would be a simplification, but only a small one. My conversion to atheism was rapid and joyful. I gloried in my new-found intellectual freedom and sense of moral responsibility and pitied those still caught in religion's web.

All was right in my godless world until, within the space of just over a year, I faced the death of a beloved relative and the possibility of my own death at the age of 29. The first event overwhelmed me with grief, the second with terror. When I say now that I would believe in an afterlife if I could, that I would take comfort in religion if I could, I mean it most sincerely.

How to deal with death without God? This question has been central to my life for two years. The sorrow of losing a loved one to death is different to other sorrows. We can pore over photographs and eulogise kind hearts and good deeds. We can read medical reports and talk about final hours. We can dissect the deceased's life and death, tell ourselves that the former was pleasant and the latter painless. All this is understandable and perhaps necessary, but none of it touches our grief, because grief is not an intellectual state. It cannot be altered by discussion or removed by reason. When the grieving heart asks how, it is not a question about heart attacks or car crashes or cancers, it is a question about the inconceivability of an entire consciousness simply not existing.

Likewise, the terror of death is not like any other fear. One cannot minimise one's fear of death by gathering information and avoiding risks, the way one might do to calm a fear of sharks or plane crashes. It is possible to reduce the chances of dying in these specific ways, sure, but in the end it doesn't matter how it happens, only that it does.

"After one has abandoned a belief in God," Wallace Stevens said, "poetry is that essence which takes its place as life's redemption." This makes sense to me: poetry often has a murkiness that allows it to deal with subjects themselves shrouded in haze. And what subject is murkier than death, about which medical science can tell us everything and nothing all at once? We know exactly what happens to a body after death; we know nothing about what happens to the consciousness it used to house.

......

But finding solace in poetry is not as simple as opening a random anthology. After the death of a dear relative, I searched the poetry shelves for fortification and consolation, only to be confronted again and again by poems that assured me of the impermanence of death and the inevitability of a joyful reunion in heaven. It struck me that had I believed any of these sentiments, I would not have needed to search for consolation in poetry in the first place.

Still, every so often I would find a poem that spoke directly to my atheistic grief and I would copy it carefully into a notebook that I took to carrying with me everywhere. Dark nights of the soul do not only occur on dark nights. In the first page of my notebook I copied a line of Gwendolyn Brooks': "Beware the easy griefs, that fool and fuel nothing."

These days I keep the notebook in a drawer and, like a first-aid kit, bring it out only at times of need. Like a first-aid kit too, the book is not designed to be emptied all at once. Each poem is powerful medicine, but some are expectorants rather than salves; some are best applied immediately while others work only after time has done all it can.

TO BEGIN AT THE END, the last poem in my notebook is Philip Larkin's Aubade. Seamus Heaney called this "the definitive post-Christian English poem" because it "abolishes the soul's traditional pretension to immortality". It is the perfect antidote to our culture's coyness about death: a harsh, unblinking examination of what it means to no longer exist.

"Waking at four to soundless dark", the poet considers the "sure extinction that we travel to" and admits to "the dread/ Of dying, and being dead". He rejects the usual comforts; religion is a "vast moth-eaten musical brocade, created to pretend we never die", and courage is "no good" because "Being brave/ Lets no one off the grave".

The philosopher Montaigne, faced with the same deep dread of death, decided that the only way to overcome it was to avoid its contemplation, instead acting as an uneducated peasant whom "nature teaches not to think of death except when he actually dies". Larkin's poem ends on a similar note, and here the end of contemplation is brought about by nature. As dawn's light comes into the room, his mind turns to the fact that the world is waiting and "work has to be done".

......

Denise Levertov's Talking to Grief takes up the theme of acceptance. "Ah, Grief, I should not treat you/ like a homeless dog/ who comes to the back door/ for a crust, for a meatless bone", it begins. The speaker acknowledges that grief has been "living under my porch", and that it is time that it was given "the right to warn off intruders, to consider/ my house your own/ and me your person".

Levertov understands that after the death of a loved one we are changed permanently. Grief is not an illness from which you recover; it is, or quickly becomes, an aspect of your personality, a part of who you are and how you live.
.......

The attempt to pinpoint the value of a single life drives Kenneth Slessor's Five Bells. The poem is ostensibly a commemoration of the poet's friend, who drowned in Sydney Harbour, but it is important to me because of the insights about grief and remembrance that occur during the attempt.

There is no suggestion of a happy afterlife here - his friend is "nothing except the memory of some bones, long shoved away, and sucked away, in mud". There is only a desperate attempt to commemorate the dead man by recording something of his life, the "unimportant things (he) might have done".

Slessor fails to capture the individuality of his friend, but in doing so captures the nature of grief beautifully: the frustration of being unable to perfectly describe why our loved one was so special and is so missed; the random incompleteness of our memories and the feeling that in trying to memorialise them we are not doing them justice; the utter futility in trying to capture in words a whole life and death of a human being, no matter how "unimportant".

......

THE FIRST POEM I COPIED into my little book - Dirge without Music, by Edna St Vincent Millay - remains the one that best describes my feelings towards death. At the funeral of the relative whose death sparked my existential musings, the refrain was that this man had lived long and well and had died peacefully. Repeatedly I heard it said that death is a natural part of life and that it was unquestionably this adored old man's time.

With each repetition of these inarguably correct phrases, Millay's words roared in my head: "I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned." Like Millay, I am outraged at "the shutting away of loving hearts in the hard ground". That it has happened "time out of mind" does not make it OK; that it is natural, that flowers bloom from the remains of the dead, is no solace. I know that I will never again experience this man's "laughter (and) love", and I am not at all resigned.

This is, perhaps, the essence of atheistic grief and also the essence of atheistic hope. To understand that death is the end of existence and that it is inevitable, but to live as if it is not. To refuse to be resigned to death even as we refuse to deny its permanence.

Hello. I didn't answer the poll, since I don't know if poetry is the only way to comfort an atheist. For me, if I were atheist, I would find it rather meaningless, as poetry can only shroud it so that it doesn't become as immense. But reality is immense, when reality has broken through the clouds, what do you turn to then?

I'm truly sorry for your sorrow, but it needs to face that death is real, and not clouded. It needs to know that death does come to everyone.

When I have been in accidents and situations that have been near immense death, I have felt comfort that it was a part of reality too, that it was a part of my life, me, and only me did it happen too. I faced it, knowing that if I did all I can the inevitable would happen. If it is inevitable then how could I find anything wrong with it? How could I relate with it in such a way that it gives me fear?

I believe in God, not because I'm afraid of dying, but because it is the most meaningful way for me to live.

I voted 'Undecided'. I shouldn't have done though. My true opinion is that it's impossible to say. I'm sure some cope with it through poetry. Seems weird to me but there you go. Others turn to drink, drugs, God, friends, family, whatever. Others, like me, accept it as part of God's great plan life. Whatever gets you through the night.

Poetry though? I ask you.

Couldn't an atheist simply reason out that death is inevitable and shouldn't be trifled with? I don't understand why you chose poetry and also choose to use such absolute wordage such as "only". The world is very rarely absolute.

With respect, Lightgigantic, the poll questions and answers are prescriptive and can only lead to conclusions that fit a presumption rather than being representative.

If you had included an answer such as: No

then I might have been able to communicate my experience of atheism and poetry in the context of the thread.
Thank you...interesting topic.

p.s. congratulations on this the anniversary of your conversion to atheism :-)

How to deal with death without God? This question has been central to my life for two years. The sorrow of losing a loved one to death is different to other sorrows. We can pore over photographs and eulogise kind hearts and good deeds. We can read medical reports and talk about final hours. We can dissect the deceased's life and death, tell ourselves that the former was pleasant and the latter painless. All this is understandable and perhaps necessary, but none of it touches our grief, because grief is not an intellectual state. It cannot be altered by discussion or removed by reason. When the grieving heart asks how, it is not a question about heart attacks or car crashes or cancers, it is a question about the inconceivability of an entire consciousness simply not existing.

Dealing with grief requires closure, like any other issue. Theists invent the afterlife and gods to deal with their losses, which only extends their grief as they imagine the person they lost somehow continues to exist. Atheists will grieve as well, but understand that death is final and that an entire consciousness in fact no longer exists, which provides the necessary closure to move on.

An atheist can come to terms with oblivion with ease. It the theist especially who has nothing but familiarity with certain scriptures gets the anxiety of what the death would bring to him.

My father passed away a few years back. I loved him dearly and still do love the memory of him, poetry has not played any part in my grieving process. He is gone from this world but he is still here in the imprint he left on the lives of those around him (the same that will happen to me one day). That is complete and enough for me.

I voted 'Undecided'. I shouldn't have done though. My true opinion is that it's impossible to say. I'm sure some cope with it through poetry. Seems weird to me but there you go. Others turn to drink, drugs, God, friends, family, whatever. Others, like me, accept it as part of God's great plan life. Whatever gets you through the night.

Poetry though? I ask you.

I guess the point of the post is that poetry actually deals with facing the issue, whereas drugs and other things (including god in the eyes of the atheist) may not

Couldn't an atheist simply reason out that death is inevitable and shouldn't be trifled with? I don't understand why you chose poetry and also choose to use such absolute wordage such as "only". The world is very rarely absolute.
Actually the article is a cut and paste

POETRY is the only way an atheist can understand the nothing and nowhere of death, writes Emily Maguire.

As for having such an outlook, namely the rational - that will not help one in times of misery, as outlined in the post

How to deal with death without God? This question has been central to my life for two years. The sorrow of losing a loved one to death is different to other sorrows. We can pore over photographs and eulogise kind hearts and good deeds. We can read medical reports and talk about final hours. We can dissect the deceased's life and death, tell ourselves that the former was pleasant and the latter painless. All this is understandable and perhaps necessary, but none of it touches our grief, because grief is not an intellectual state. It cannot be altered by discussion or removed by reason. When the grieving heart asks how, it is not a question about heart attacks or car crashes or cancers, it is a question about the inconceivability of an entire consciousness simply not existing.

With respect, Lightgigantic, the poll questions and answers are prescriptive and can only lead to conclusions that fit a presumption rather than being representative.

If you had included an answer such as: No

then I might have been able to communicate my experience of atheism and poetry in the context of the thread.
Thank you...interesting topic.
the last option is short of vouching for the negative?

An atheist can come to terms with oblivion with ease. It the theist especially who has nothing but familiarity with certain scriptures gets the anxiety of what the death would bring to him.
I guess such a theist fares better than a theist who is not familiar with any scriptures
:p

My father passed away a few years back. I loved him dearly and still do love the memory of him, poetry has not played any part in my grieving process. He is gone from this world but he is still here in the imprint he left on the lives of those around him (the same that will happen to me one day). That is complete and enough for me.
I guess the point of the article is that it is only poetry actually deals with the issue of imminent (or nearby) non-existence - what one may do to deal with grief is a separate issue, but in terms of getting satisfactory answers from examining the nature of death, poetry is all an atheist has

I guess the point of the article is that it is only poetry actually deals with the issue of imminent (or nearby) non-existence - what one may do to deal with grief is a separate issue, but in terms of getting satisfactory answers from examining the nature of death, poetry is all an atheist has


That makes absolutely no sense to me are you saying that atheists have no method of processing experience or learning? I would say the opposite when I die I am gone that's, it lights out, I do not require a story that reassures me that I won't end there as a theist does. The only diffuculty I have with the idea of death is in my current situation with young children, I don't want them to be fatherless before they are grown. Otherwise I know one day death will come to me and it is as simple as that.

I guess the point of the post is that poetry actually deals with facing the issue, whereas drugs and other things (including god in the eyes of the atheist) may not
And I guess the real point I was making is that family and friends make better panaceas than any of the above - and that, if you haven't got any, you need to get some (friends, I mean).

I suggest that theists are the ones so uncomfortable with death that they would postulate a fake life (afterlife), rather than deal with the sudden end of a person they love.

In some ways, the culture itself creates the sadness of death. If theists really believed what they say, death should be an occasion of happiness, but it's not because they are full of fear. It's the same fear that leads them to cling to man made symbols like "soul", and "God". Some sadness is reasonable, more so if the death was unnatural, violent, or premature but I just don't get the existential sadness that seems to confront many regarding death.

Totally - its a cultural phenomenon like poetry...

That makes absolutely no sense to me are you saying that atheists have no method of processing experience or learning?

rational logic is useless in dealing with the sufferings of emmotions

I would say the opposite when I die I am gone that's, it lights out, I do not require a story that reassures me that I won't end there as a theist does.
If you read te article you can see atheistic poetry which says the same thing, except more eloquently of course

The only diffuculty I have with the idea of death is in my current situation with young children, I don't want them to be fatherless before they are grown.

and that is one of the many problems associated with death ....

Otherwise I know one day death will come to me and it is as simple as that.
It was never alluded to that it becomes less than inevitable

And I guess the real point I was making is that family and friends make better panaceas than any of the above - and that, if you haven't got any, you need to get some (friends, I mean).
family and friends, along with so many other things, place death in the background, and unfortunately it doesn't make the nature of death or dying any more palatable.
As for making friends, no doubt you are recommending the atheistic variety eh?
;)

I suggest that theists are the ones so uncomfortable with death that they would postulate a fake life (afterlife), rather than deal with the sudden end of a person they love.
Of course its a whole separate issue explored numerous times before with a complete lack of resolution (namely what processes an atheist advocates to make a positive statement regarding the non-existence of god and associated phenomena, ie the after life) - but yes, obviously an atheist functions on the principle that god and the next life are not existent

In some ways, the culture itself creates the sadness of death. If theists really believed what they say, death should be an occasion of happiness, but it's not because they are full of fear. It's the same fear that leads them to cling to man made symbols like "soul", and "God". Some sadness is reasonable, more so if the death was unnatural, violent, or premature but I just don't get the existential sadness that seems to confront many regarding death.

for many relgious people death is a joyous experience - in fact the hairline fractures in my previous atheistic outlook (maybe 14 years ago) first appeared
when I observed how a particular gross materialist left their body and how a highly spiritual person left theirs.

With respect, can you draw a generalization from specific experiential instances?

With respect, can you draw a generalization from specific experiential instances?
not really, but such experiences can inspire a person to apply the required processes that can generate specific experiences (like for instance a person may meet a physicist who they are very impressed by and later on go on to become a qualified physicist themselves, by dint of being inspired to go through the austerity of further education, etc to come to such a position)

Potentially - but not in this instance which is why I commented.

Potentially - but not in this instance which is why I commented.
Of course if an atheist thought any less they wouldn't be an atheist
;)

I believe in God, not because I'm afraid of dying, but because it is the most meaningful way for me to live.

How does God give your life meaning?

Death gives my life meaning by giving it a time limit.

I don't even know where to begin with this vapid thread....

The title itself is both rigidly incongruent, and contradictory.

I have no problem whatsoever understanding death.

I also place little, if any value in poetry and it has never been of any assistance to me in coming to understand anything.

I guess it just goes to show that applied misconception leads to a weak dialectic - however the OP might learn this from the comments so all is not lost.

WTF? Poetry? Death? WTF?

Death is one of the few things in life I truly do understand. I don't recall ever reading a poem to understand it, though.

Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
I'll be a dead motherfucker someday...
But so will you!

And in the words of a great chief: It is a good day to die!


There you have it. Poetry in motion.

Poetry is the only avenue that enables an atheist to understand the subject of death


I once thought myself a poet, so I went to the crapper, and there I became a rapper!

my rap:

What's to fear? fear of death, when I die the end comes, I will seize
to exist, as I did once before. Oh! woe them who fear nature, nature itself dies and rebirths, I am matter, matter can't be destroyed, it only changes form, so I will be a spirit, a ghost, or worse non-existent. Yes that's what It is! it's the fear of non-existent that drive the delusions of those who fear death, it's fear of the unknown, it's through fear how they try to manipulate, it's the reason why lighttee comes here with this thread, to try and manipulate by fear, fear of death.

So if you thought my rap was crap, realize were I wrote it! in the crapper, one doesn't become a great rapper. :D

family and friends, along with so many other things, place death in the background, and unfortunately it doesn't make the nature of death or dying any more palatable.
It's hard to place death in the background when it's in your front room. It's not really ideal dinner-table conversation, no - but everyone needs to confront it at some point. Family and friends help a lot of people do that (although many others prefer to grieve alone).
As for making friends, no doubt you are recommending the atheistic variety eh? ;)
I'm not one of these crusading atheists. Like I said - whatever gets you through the night. It would be churlish and facile to begrudge the bereaved whatever crumbs of comfort they can find.

Hmm this post really made me think about death, how horrible would it be take have to deal with deal at such a young age.
Its funny as soon as i start thinking about death as something very real that 'will' happen to me (rather than this abstract notion on the edges of my peripheral consciousness) i actually start to think about the people ive loved and who have loved me, and i hope i will have more love in my life above anything else if im honest.
Funny how intellect and perceived achievements go out of the window when you momentarily become of aware of your morality.

rational logic is useless in dealing with the sufferings of emmotions

Sounds like part of your personal doctrine.

If you read te article you can see atheistic poetry which says the same thing, except more eloquently of course
Has nothing to do with me, never seen an atheistic poem before in fact never even heard of it as a genre before now.


and that is one of the many problems associated with death It was never alluded to that it becomes less than inevitable

So I don't really see that I have any problem
dealing with death as you seem to have decided I do. Good luck on your quest:p

I think, athiest or theist, poetry can help many deal with the hardships one faces in life. LG, I think that if turning to poetry helps you deal with your grief, then go for it. I love poetry and have often used it to help me face things that are inevitable, the only difference being that I write it, instead of read it. I am not an athiest so I would not know the best way for an athiest to deal with death. I have seen death, it is ugly and horrible, but also a relief, an end to physical suffering...still, I do not fear death, I fear HOW I will die, I will admit this. I just don't want to get eaten by anything or be tortured, but the idea of existing forever or not existing at all, does not scare me. Incidently, I don't think being a theist means you fear death. I don't understand why being a theist is always brought down to fear. Are people who are theists weaker and less capable of handling hard things in life? From my experiences, no, this is not the case, in fact I think it takes a stronger person to maintain a belief or faith despite all opposition. Then again I don't know if I am a theist either, so I probably shouldn't speak for either side. LG, if poetry is your outlet then I am right there with you. I often write poetry about death, the idea of it, the how or why. I find death interesting, intriguing, but I also understand the suffering part as well. I am truly sorry for your loss. I also recently lost a close relative to death and it was...well, there are no words for it. If you are interested in sharing poetry you can PM any time. :)

And in the words of a great chief: It is a good day to die!
I thought that was Lt. Worf?

Ah, bloody Klingons - nicking all the good stuff for themselves! :D

It's hard to place death in the background when it's in your front room. It's not really ideal dinner-table conversation, no - but everyone needs to confront it at some point. Family and friends help a lot of people do that (although many others prefer to grieve alone).

I'm not one of these crusading atheists. Like I said - whatever gets you through the night. It would be churlish and facile to begrudge the bereaved whatever crumbs of comfort they can find.
still not clear how friends and family help solve the problem of death 9except perhaps making one forget about it temporarily) after all, even friends and family die

Sounds like part of your personal doctrine.
actually its explained in the article quoted in the OP
But its not clear how rationality can help one deal with the nature of death - like for instance if you or a loved one were about to die, how would logic and rationality help you deal with the inevitable turmoil that would bring ---- actually I don't think it is really possible to answer this since, as indicated by the numerous posts, the whole topic of death and dying just tends to attract a crescendo of bravado from our learned assembly


Has nothing to do with me, never seen an atheistic poem before in fact never even heard of it as a genre before now.
death, particularly one's own, tends not to attract too much in depth contemplation

LG - while I voted in the "Not at all" category - your poll options are, as I think has been said, limited and misleading.

For example - while I do not agree that "poetry is the only way that an atheist can understand death" - I also do not agree with the generalisation that "an atheist can face anything without requiring such a crutch", nor with the ridiculous notion that poetry is for the "mentally weak", nor with any of the other options you put forward.

Your poll is also asking for people's generalisations - not their personal opinion on the matter of atheism / death / poetry.

I think, athiest or theist, poetry can help many deal with the hardships one faces in life. LG, I think that if turning to poetry helps you deal with your grief, then go for it. I love poetry and have often used it to help me face things that are inevitable, the only difference being that I write it, instead of read it. I am not an athiest so I would not know the best way for an athiest to deal with death. I have seen death, it is ugly and horrible, but also a relief, an end to physical suffering...still, I do not fear death, I fear HOW I will die, I will admit this. I just don't want to get eaten by anything or be tortured, but the idea of existing forever or not existing at all, does not scare me. Incidently, I don't think being a theist means you fear death. I don't understand why being a theist is always brought down to fear. Are people who are theists weaker and less capable of handling hard things in life? From my experiences, no, this is not the case, in fact I think it takes a stronger person to maintain a belief or faith despite all opposition.
actually its interesting that self empowerment seminars, ranging from AA to commercial entrepreneurs, utilize similar aspects that theism operates on to surmount difficulties

Then again I don't know if I am a theist either, so I probably shouldn't speak for either side. LG, if poetry is your outlet then I am right there with you. I often write poetry about death, the idea of it, the how or why.

lol - it is a common source of inspiration for poets

in the hands of an atheist it usually ends up nilhistic

eg -

At last, a reason
not to want to live
forever: the stars
are winking out,
apparently, although
it won't be apparent
to most of us any time
soon, one here,
one there, it will be
eons before noticeable
holes appear in Orion's
belt, for example, or
the Water-Bearer's
bucket, but just knowing
they're going out e-
ventually, who would
want to stay on
under what will become
an unpunctuated
sky, just a few faint grains
of light, too few to make
anything of, nothing
to wish on, hitch
our wagons to, nothing
to lift us out of ourselves,
no pinpricks of hope
in our black box, no reason
to stay, no place to go.

Sharon Bryan


compare that to a theist


Late Ripeness

Not soon, as late as the approach of my ninetieth year,
I felt a door opening in me and I entered
the clarity of early morning.

One after another my former lives were departing,
like ships, together with their sorrow.

And the countries, cities, gardens, the bays of seas
assigned to my brush came closer,
ready now to be described better than they were before.

I was not separated from people,
grief and pity joined us.
We forget - I kept saying - that we are all children of the King.

For where we come from there is no division
into Yes and No, into is, was, and will be.

We were miserable, we used no more than a hundredth part
of the gift we received for our long journey.

Moments from yesterday and from centuries ago -
a sword blow, the painting of eyelashes before a mirror
of polished metal, a lethal musket shot, a caravel
staving its hull against a reef - they dwell in us,
waiting for a fulfillment.

I knew, always, that I would be a worker in the vineyard,
as are all men and women living at the same time,
whether they are aware of it or not.

Czeslaw Milosz

I find death interesting, intriguing, but I also understand the suffering part as well. I am truly sorry for your loss. I also recently lost a close relative to death and it was...well, there are no words for it. If you are interested in sharing poetry you can PM any time. :)[/QUOTE]
thanks

But its not clear how rationality can help one deal with the nature of death...I am surprised you can not see how it can help. Maybe that is why it doesn't help you.
If you can cope only through irrationality - then go for it.

But maybe if you explain what you see as the "nature of death" then we can progress this discussion.

- like for instance if you or a loved one were about to die, how would logic and rationality help you deal with the inevitable turmoil that would bring....
How do you / would you rationalise the "turmoil" of the loss of a limb?

It is painful (physically and mentally), but one copes - by putting in place things that help you with the loss. This is a rational and logical approach.
One builds in to this means of coping with the emotional aspects - by having counsellors etc.

It is not hugely different, in principle, to coping with death.

---- actually I don't think it is really possible to answer this since, as indicated by the numerous posts, the whole topic of death and dying just tends to attract a crescendo of bravado from our learned assembly.Rather typical of you, LG - trying to prevent people from disagreeing with you by claiming that any disagreement is mere bravado.
:rolleyes:
I really thought you'd be above such petty tactics.

death, particularly one's own, tends not to attract too much in depth contemplationWhat's there to contemplate about one's own death?
How can one contemplate about something they can know nothing of?

Sarkus

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
But its not clear how rationality can help one deal with the nature of death...
”
I am surprised you can not see how it can help. Maybe that is why it doesn't help you.
If you can cope only through irrationality - then go for it.
obviously you have never had a near death experience - or if you have you have forgotten what it was like - the simple fact that soldiers undergo special training to deal with it and they don't always come out mentally stable should indicate something, what to speak of car accidents, suicides, or other regular homicides

But maybe if you explain what you see as the "nature of death" then we can progress this discussion.
simple - you will die and everyone about you will die and the standard pursuits of life (money, false prestige, sex etc) will not diminish its effect or presence

“
Originally Posted by LG
- like for instance if you or a loved one were about to die, how would logic and rationality help you deal with the inevitable turmoil that would bring....
”
How do you / would you rationalise the "turmoil" of the loss of a limb?
people who lose limbs commonly go into shock, particularly if the amputation is quite sudden or horrific - rational analysis only comes into play when the emotions have left the scene

It is painful (physically and mentally), but one copes - by putting in place things that help you with the loss. This is a rational and logical approach.
One builds in to this means of coping with the emotional aspects - by having counsellors etc.
and while one is in an emotional state, none of these rational or logical processes can help

It is not hugely different, in principle, to coping with death.
the only difference being that the notion of not existing stirs up emotions that never really leave the scene

“
Originally Posted by LG
---- actually I don't think it is really possible to answer this since, as indicated by the numerous posts, the whole topic of death and dying just tends to attract a crescendo of bravado from our learned assembly.
”
Rather typical of you, LG - trying to prevent people from disagreeing with you by claiming that any disagreement is mere bravado.
If a solider 9who undergoes special training) has great difficulty rationally anticipating what its like to have their leg blown off the chances of your average sciforumer being able to anticipate how their or their loved one's inevitable demise will leave them feeling is probably a bit of a distant call

I really thought you'd be above such petty tactics.
generally its seen that death, particularly our own, has the ability to forgo our preconceived ideas

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Originally Posted by LG
death, particularly one's own, tends not to attract too much in depth contemplation
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What's there to contemplate about one's own death?
How can one contemplate about something they can know nothing of?
see what I mean ...
;)

obviously you have never had a near death experience - or if you have you have forgotten what it was like - the simple fact that soldiers undergo special training to deal with it and they don't always come out mentally stable should indicate something,Should indicate what?
LG, I really am not clear on what you whole point is.

simple - you will die and everyone about you will die and the standard pursuits of life (money, false prestige, sex etc) will not diminish its effect or presenceAnd your problem with this is...?
Are you trying to solve something?
Are you trying to say it is not how it should be?

Your statement above is valid - but I'm not sure what you're driving at.


people who lose limbs commonly go into shock, particularly if the amputation is quite sudden or horrific - rational analysis only comes into play when the emotions have left the sceneNo. Rational analysis can come into play before that.
One can feel emotional but still act rationally - it really depends on the strength of the emotion and one's ability to override them.
And it also helps to know, through rational analysis, when one is primarily acting irrationally through extreme emotion.

and while one is in an emotional state, none of these rational or logical processes can helpYes, they can.
It is a battle between emotion and rationality. The more you can try and rationalise the more you can start to reduce the emotional decision-making.
The more successful you are in rationalising the situation the more you can overcome the emotions and not let them rule your decisions.
And you can not tell me that it doesn't work.
It does. At least for me.
The emotions are still there but they are kept in check by rational thinking.

You might well be different - and if you do nothing but merely wait for the emotions to subside then okay.


And I still can't see where poetry comes in.
For some it might help - certainly in lessening the frustration at not being able to put into words what they are feeling and the poetry being able to do that for them, or merely in seeing that someone else feels what they do.
But not for me.
And I still don't think being an atheist or theist has any bearing on it. As said - the two parts are a non sequitor.

It is a battle between emotion and rationality. The more you can try and rationalise the more you can start to reduce the emotional decision-making.
The more successful you are in rationalising the situation the more you can overcome the emotions and not let them rule your decisions.

Ah! but Sarkus, this is a thing a theist or any mystic can't possibly do. They rely on their emotions, they live by them, they make decisions on them. "gut feeling" or what not. They are in essence lacking in reason, when they always rely on the aspect of hope, faith, beliefs, religious optimism. They have all the answers, and if anyone disagree with them, we are just plainly wrong, mislead, or don't understand because we refuse to look at things their way. See the actions of LG, this tactic is the one we see from this guy. He has pounded on his keyboard that we lack the epistemology of his beliefs, that we don't understand the ontology of his beliefs, he has elevated himself as above our understanding, an understanding of which apparently he can't make himself clear to us. Though his resolution is to try and belittle one's opinion by merely telling us "we don't understand"

As an atheist, I think we have a grasp of reality that of course he can't possibly understand, we don't live by the hope or faith that we will continue to live after death, to me and many atheist this is nothing more then a ploy, a ploy to convince to believe what they do out of fear, fear of the unknown. It's plain and simple, this is the obvious reason why death is always brought up in a religious discussion. You are going to die! were will you go? What's going to happen to you? Your loved ones are going to die, how are you going to deal with this? I have faith, I believe, I have hope, that I will see my loved ones again in heaven...Bla..bla...bla.. the reasons a theist believes, is nothing more than fear!

Theist live by an emotion, and that emotion is fear, fear of the unknown. All through history, with every new gadget invented, the theist was claiming it to be the work of the devil, when witches were burned for simply mixing up herbs to cure, this was the work of the devil, when space ships flew out to space, theist feared the wrath of god as in Babylon's tower of Babel will happen again. Fear and fear is their tool, their strongest emotion, that they indoctrinate their children with.

Atheist grasp on reality helps them deal better with death, for we know this is a one ticket ride, we make the best or our lives, we deal with grief for loved ones, and we never forget them, for we know we will never see them again. Atheist don't live with the false illusion that we will see loved ones again, so our grief is even more hurtful then those who live with these false hopes, of heaven and bliss.

What LG intended here is to bring down our position, by demonstrating some poems from atheist's who have lost loved ones, by comparing the writing to theist who have lost loved ones, and rationalizing that all atheist deal with death basically the same. This is what is fallible with rationalizations, he is making absolute statements without any freaking evidence to back up his stupidity. I don't like poetry at all, and I have dealt with death of loved ones, I have been near death as well LG. drug overdose "this is irrelevant here"

Any how what LG has done is assume that we have never dealt with the hardship of life, or wants to get an understanding of how we atheist deal with it, Sarkus is trying to explain it, he has done an eloquent job of it, yet it's you LG who lacks our "epistemology" our "ontology" of grasping reality by reason and logic, by having an understanding of objective reality vs the subjective emotion, and living of faith, hopes and beliefs..

Godless

How does God give your life meaning?Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So God gives me faith and hope to cope with things, and to achieve what I hope for.

You got to search for the truth you know, even the Bible doesn't come with premade answers, and you have to search honestly and fail many times before you get to know even the slightest detail. But then even the slightest detail is a revelation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So God gives me faith and hope to cope with things, and to achieve what I hope for.But what does belief / faith in a God give you that merely believing in yourself can't?
What is it that this belief / faith actually gives you that enables you to achieve what you hope for?
Are you saying that if you remove the belief in god that you suddenly wouldn't be able to achieve things? :eek:


You got to search for the truth you know, even the Bible doesn't come with premade answers...What do you mean "even the Bible"?
Why are you putting the Bible on a pedestal above any other?


...and you have to search honestly and fail many times before you get to know even the slightest detail. But then even the slightest detail is a revelation.This is surely a truism of life in general - not of anything specific, and certainly not just of a search for answers in religion?

You got to search for the truth you know, even the Bible doesn't come with premade answers, and you have to search honestly and fail many times before you get to know even the slightest detail. But then even the slightest detail is a revelation.

So a bible is like the I Ching then?