Ok this is quite simple....
what is unconditional love and does it exist?

Cheers
RazZ:bugeye:

From my understanding, unconditional love is a completely one-sided love.

Here is a simple story that may help you out.

Imagine me, Armyboyjay, finding a man, beating him, raping his wife, stealing everything he owns, and running off with his children. The man, in turn, finds me one day down the road. I am hurt, bleeding and needing medical attention. He then brings me to a hospital, pays for all my bills, and leaves enough money for any leftover expenses. He later comes back to check up on me, and says that he forgives my crimes against him.

Does that make sense? It seems almost impossible, a love that is not deserved or recipricated. I have yet to find a person in my life who would be insane enough to ever consider it. But that's just my understanding.

Any thoughts on what unconditional love is? I'd like to hear them

-armyboyjay

PS: [If you are crazy enough to take into account the four gospels as an accurate account of the life of Jesus Christ, I believe that is what many Christians believe Jesus exhibited. But that is an entirely different topic in itself.]

Bull Shit!

MOMMIES!!!!... guys are we forgetting them????they give us their unconditional love dont they?

bye!

Originally posted by zion
Bull Shit!

MOMMIES!!!!... guys are we forgetting them????they give us their unconditional love dont they?

bye!

I agree. :) :)

I think what armyboyjay is getting at is the belief that Unconditional Love is granting validity for everything and all beings to exist just as they are. And that is a tough ideal to reach, even for a mommy. Would your mother truly stand in front you while you wielded a knife and killed her, and not hate you for it? Would her love for you prevent her from trying to harm you, as you are intent on harming her, even to the extent of not protecting herself physically? I'm not sure. The ego is a very powerful force.

Just playing Devil’s Advocate.

Peace.

Hi Goofy,
if my mom tells me to kill an innocent person i would kill him.i love her so much,same is at her side. and who is the ass hole who wants to kill his mother?,he"ll probably be a psycho.


bye!

Originally posted by zion
if my mom tells me to kill an innocent person i would kill him.i love her so much...Er... Ok, Norman, calm down... :bugeye:

Peace.

Unconditional love to me is this...

The love I have for my daughter. If she came to me and said she killed someone, or if she were gay, or if she was a heroin addict... I would still have the same love I had for her the day she was born:)

Groove on

Originally posted by goofyfish
Er... Ok, Norman, calm down... :bugeye:

Peace.
Hhahahahahaahahahahahahaha...
hahahahahahaaaaa...

bye!

Xez, excellent scripture. Not too many people go that far to do their homework.

In regard to unconditional love and Jesus Christ, I think that most Christians believe that he exhibited it on the cross.

Another story (because I find stories enjoyable and easy to follow):

Suppose there is a doctor who has the cure for cancer. He opens his doors to everyone who is sick with the disease. Irregardless of your past, financial status, age, race, or sex, he is willing to share this remedy for anyone who is willing. Those who come are healed. However, many people who pass outside his doors simply cannot believe that this doctor had the cure, or do not believe they are sick. "Cure for cancer, yeah right." "Who in their right mind would go to a doctor who doesn't charge anything." "Who is he kidding. I'm not sick." "Cancer. Ag. It's just a headache." Yet the doctor is inside, waiting, for anyone broken enough to stumble across his way and ask for healing.

I suppose on a spiritual level, Christians believe the disease is called that nasty Biblical S-word (sin). Christ's forgiveness on the cross is the cure. At least that is how I understand it.

Does that make sense? My analogy falls short, of course, but I hope I got the right idea across.

And that is exactly way I want to believe it and I don't want to believe it. I don't want to believe it because I'd actually have to admit that there is something wrong with me, that I'm not nearly as good as I thought I was, and that I need help. But, at the same time, I want to believe it because it sounds so, so good.

Afterthoughts?

Unconditional love is insane. I don't see how many moms do it. And I wish I had a girlfriend like Adam. He is graced.

-armyboyjay

Unconditional love is the love you feel when you are doing the right thing. Being true to yourself in the first place and your heart tells you exactly how to act to someone you love unconditinal. That can be a lot more then only mothers and children.

What about unconditional love for Nature and all what belongs to Her and Earth?

And the love you feel for your soul mate if you are lucky enough to find him/her? There you have something. Love someone without selfishness, then you have unconditional love. Being able to take someone else for what he/she is, without trying to change that person. And still being true to yourself and what you stand for...;)

Love is an emotion, not something you can put into words.
Love is simply that - love. It's just a title we assign to an emotion. There is no real way to describe it, it's a feeling you have. Artists and Authors have been trying to describe it for centuries!

Yes, I agree with you Tyler. :) What would you say then, if someone asks you to tell what you feel exactly? How would you describe it? What would you do...?

I'd say to me love is when you can't stay angry. Love is when you look at someone, and not only do problems go away, but it's like they never existed. Love is when you don't have to ask the question - am I in love? - because the answer is glarringly obvious.

That's it to me.

Yourself?

I second your post Tyler. :) Yes I do love someone unconditional and only seeing him, being near him, fills me with a great joy. It is the feeling, just too wonderful for words. I can't imagine this will ever change.

I don't think it does. This is my life, my love...:)

Tyler...even better...my love, my life...with tears if necessarry!!! :)

Enjoy it!

Banshee, razz, et-all,

Love is an ill-defined emotion of dubious long-term value. In practice, love is really a combination of other more easily understood emotions. Primarily it consists of feelings of security, satisfaction, contentment, loyalty, and trust, etc. Reduce or remove any one of these components and love will not be present, or will be seriously limited.

Note that you rarely find men discussing among themselves aspects of love. Typically such discussions are overwhelmingly a female arena. This is a direct result of an evolutionary effect where child rearing required such security, even to the point where a mother would sacrifice herself for her offspring. Ultimately love is a mechanism for survival.

Most people find such emotions understandably attractive. But often love is sought because of personal weaknesses. For example putting your total trust and dependence in the strengths (strengths that you lack) of a partner may well give all the aspects of security and contentment, but the partnership is often one-sided since the other partner cannot then depend on complementary strength. If the partner then dies, or leaves then the dependent often suffers severe depression and inability to function properly.

The best partnerships come when both sides have equal levels of strengths, perhaps complimentary strengths, but all factors should be present. We all suffer weaknesses from time to time and it is those times when the strengths of the partner become vital for the relationship to continue. If any of those aspects are missing then one partner will feel betrayed and confused, and love will be false.

The best loving partnerships comes from stable couples who can each offer equal value to each other.

An increasing number of partnerships fail because the relationship is one-side, but also because many find that the need to depend on another is no longer as important as it was many years ago. And most of this is coming from females. As equal rights for men and women gradually become a reality, women are now increasingly asserting their newfound independence and no longer need to depend on the man to be the provider. Many men have not realized this progressive change yet, and must pay the price.

The divorce rate in the USA is now at around 50% to 60%, i.e. most marriages fail. This is higher among young people, who due to their immaturity and inexperience, form unequal partnerships as described above. As soon as one side finds independent strength then they prefer to go it alone or seek a stronger partner.

Unconditional love is the love you feel when you are doing the right thing. Being true to yourself in the first place and your heart tells you exactly how to act to someone you love unconditinal. No I think that is wrong. Real effective love requires some work. I think learning how to do the right thing and how to act correctly results in effective love, and not the reverse. It isn’t your heart that tells you how to act it is your intellect. The emotions (heart) then will fall into place. If you hope love will just appear without effort then you are deluded, you would be trusting to luck only.

And the love you feel for your soul mate if you are lucky enough to find him/her? This unfortunately implies that love is the normal state and that one is unlucky if not in love. This attitude that is forced on everyone by the media and trashy love novels, encourages too many people to assume that they are somehow incomplete if they are not in a loving relationship. Unfortunately most people are not in such relationships and the continued propagation of such expectations that they should be is cruel and immoral.

I don’t see that being in a state of love is either necessary or highly desirable. Once you can ignore the media pressure, and have the courage to learn how to support and depend on yourself, then partnerships can then be seen as a disadvantage rather than an advantage. All relationships involve a considerable degree of compromise, and often both never achieve what they would like to do if they were single. That is a loss.

And events in life do change, so an expectation that love will last forever is shown to be an illusion. In most cases love does not last, so one should not expect it.

I remember a deep loving relationship where I remember being so satisfied that the thought that it could possibly end just didn’t occur to me. We divorced 7 years later. The marriage lasted 18 years. We are now two very independent people and extremely good friends, but neither of us has any plans or intentions in participating in relationships with anyone ever again. It just isn’t necessary.

I am sure there will be those who cannot imagine not being in a relationship, and those who are desperately seeking love, I suspect mainly because of media pressure, but most do not find lasting love, and always think they are to blame.

In our modern society independent survival is now easily possible and very practical. The old idea that girls should marry quickly and raise children and depend for their survival on their husbands has now almost vanished. And the basic unit of the family is also beginning to dissolve.

The emotional blackmail spread by the media and religion that love is all you need is irresponsible and causes massive pain and suffering for many young people who do not have the wisdom and experience to decide for themselves.

So if you really want love with another then you will need to work for it, and expect a great deal of pain en-route. Learning to be truly independent and learning to love yourself is a far more practical solution to a very happy and contented lifestyle.

Cris

Possibly the coldestpost I've ever read, and I'm a generally cold person.

I'll agree with you that many young people (around my age and up) are searching for love due to a lack of self respect or strength. I'll agree that love is not necessary. But I will strongly state that love, while not necessary, is an amazing, beautiful and enriching thing. Love can be an incredible emotion with both incredible highs and incredible lows. Love can be something that makes you feel like you're floating aboce the skies, or lieing in the gutter with rats. It's a matter of finding the right person. It's a matter of finding someone compatible who loves you. If you find the right person, you should never feel the gutter though. Or, if you do, it's going to be a short-lived thing.

You suggest (I believe) that love is no longer necessary and will likely die off eventually. In America (phew, not an American!), the divorce rate per marriage is 50-60% at any given moment. Take a wild stab at how many of those are repeat divorcees!

Yes, many people get divorced but that does not mean everyone WILL. It only means that you grow up more intelligent and less ignorant.

I'm sorry for your ended relationship but I believe your lack of desire to be in another one is nothing more than a still hurting heart that doesn't feel the need or desire to be hurt again. Personally, I view that as quite cowardly. If you fall off your bike, you get up and brush yourself off and get right back on it. How do you know you won't find someone to share your life with later? You've given up.

I know the relationship I'm in has a very, very small chance of being a life-long one, but I don't care. It's called experimenting and it's done until you find something that just doesn't end.

Personally, I follow my bike quote. When I get hurt, I get up, brush myself off, realize tomorrow's another day, and get to work.

Cris, *The best loving partnerships comes from stable couples who can each offer equal value to each other.*

Exactly!!! :)

My goodness, what a lecture...

I am sorry you feel that way. You must be a lonely person. I know very well how to live on my own, without love from a partner. Did so for years. Somehow, with my weaknesses, as you call it, my life always turned out the right way. Living from out my heart and Spirit.

Hope the coldness in your heart will soon be warmed up again. Good luck, you need it...

banshee,

I am sorry you feel that way. You must be a lonely person. You must be careful not to judge others by your own standards. I am not lonely although I am alone; there is an important difference.

Somehow, with my weaknesses, as you call it, my life always turned out the right way. Oh I didn’t mean to imply you had those weaknesses, I do not know you well enough to do that. I was not judging you.

Living from out my heart and Spirit.

Hope the coldness in your heart will soon be warmed up again. Good luck, you need it... Ah you haven’t quite understood yet, never mind. You have an emotional need that I do not have. I could argue that you are weaker than me for that but I could also see how you could see your emotions as strength. I don’t believe there is a right and wrong on this. We are simply very different. I will not judge you for who you are, but you might need to work harder to understand my position before you judge me. It's not that I don't understand love or that I haven't loved, but that I have many other more important things to achieve in this life and personal relationships would be a serious distraction.

I am perfectly happy without a close relationship. I am fiercely independent and highly value my solitude and privacy. But as for warmth and love: I have those as well, but different to you. I have three superb daughters who I love dearly – see attached image.

But if the future goes as I expect then people will have to learn greater degrees of independence and self-reliance. But that is another story.

Cris


c:/The three stooges web 50%.jpg

sighs not all mommys give unconditional love...gee I would have settled for love...my mother sincerely is a nut *shrugs* but I feel unconditional love does exist..but I haven't found it on a two way street..Someone once did love me that way...and I couldn't look past all of the dear abby reasons why we wouldn't make it..lol..and I have really love some and while it would be wrong for me to say I gave that kind of love...I can say I put up with tons of crap...you know the story..

If you can prove there is unconditional love, would that mean there was unconditional hate.:)

Cris, I apologize.

You are right, we are just different people with a different view and attitude. Which doesn't mean it is wrong.

You just sounded so bitter in that earlier post... I am happy to hear you are ok and happy with your life. :) Stay the way you are, eveybody has his/her own way of living and loving. Let's respect eachothers thoughts and view on lif and love.

I have a son, who I love deeply. He is the best there is, as every mother will say about her child. He turns in a very bright, lovely young man with an own will and view on life and love and all the other important things which come on his way.

Guess there is a whole lot more to say and to discuss about the subject. I leave it with this for now...;)

Banshee,

Awright, excelent.

Let's respect eachothers thoughts and view on lif and love.Agreed. And good advice for everyone else as well, I think.

Take care
Cris :cool:

Respecting the views doesn't mean we can't discuss them though!

Chris, I understand that love, to you at least, is unnecessary and overvalued thing; still do you believe it does not better life?

So if you really want love with another then you will need to work for it, and expect a great deal of pain en-route. Learning to be truly independent and learning to love yourself is a far more practical solution to a very happy and contented lifestyle.

Very true. I have known those who were so desperate for 'love' that they got themselves into horridly messy situations.

I do not think (although I am no expert) that true love can exist and last except among equals.

Is Cris cold? Perhaps. I am often though cold because I grew up without love, and I never let myself develop that need.

Give me friends, give me good friends and give me cute partners who are good in bed....(bonus points if such are friends)....I shall be esctatic. But even without, and I have been without, I shall be fine.

I consider this a strengh. I do not need, and the sight of need in another terrifies me.

Knowing what love is like without sex, knowing what life is like without love, and having the fortitute to get over this, I offer you
the wisdom of those more knowledgable than I. (http://lyrics.freesoftwarearchive.com/lyrics/Lords_Of_Acid/Expand_Your_Head/Rough_Sex__The_All_Night_Grinder_Mix_.html)

(Perhaps not safe for work)

As for divorce, is not the simplest solution not to marry in the first place? Come now, do we really think that it is necessary to trap a person to make sure they will love you?

Marriage has always been soley about money. First the transfer of property (a woman and her dowry, from father to husband) and then as a way of judging a man's fitness to support her and her children.

Tyler:
Personally, I view that as quite cowardly. If you fall off your bike, you get up and brush yourself off and get right back on it. How do you know you won't find someone to share your life with later? You've given up.

Jealous overmuch? :rolleyes:

IMHO - Unconditional Love is basically an emotion with safety off for survival. There are only two instances that can happen.

1. You are brain washed into believing on something - even to kill (that you will go to heaven...). Basically you are a nutcase. Remember Heaven's Gate?

2. You are in front of a hyperbeing and trust that implicitly to act without condition. The Love part is just an expression. Since this is rare, refer to no.1

Jealous hardly. I consider my strengths that I can deal without many emotions and find them highly illogical. The beauty to love is that logic needs not exist with it. I have many values in life; knowledge and the persuit of knowledge, self understanding, guitar and hockey (being my cheap ones!) and love. To be in love, I have no doubt you will agree, is a great thing. It's not necessary when you get right down to it, but it is something that enhances life.

Like I said, you take the good with the bad, the bumps and bruises and falls with the highs, and you keep on enjoying yourself. To tell me that you do not enjoy love is to tell me you are completely unemotional (or, have underlying psychological problems rooted in childhood). And to me, that's sad.

Intelligence comes from logic, beauty comes from emotion.

To be in love, I have no doubt you will agree, is a great thing. It's not necessary when you get right down to it, but it is something that enhances life.

Yes, romantic love can be wonderfull. And, like anything, can be painfull. Love is great, love sucks, life is great, life sucks, do you see?

But cowardly? To not feel love? To attempt to avoid love would perhaps be foolish....but simply not to feel hardly constitutes cowardice.

If one had only reason without passion or passion without reason!

kmguru:

2. You are in front of a hyperbeing and trust that implicitly to act without condition.

Last time I trusted Cthulhu implicitly he ate my date for the evening! *Sigh* And not in a good way.

But of course *points at signature* Cthulhu loves me.

tyler,

Chris, I understand that love, to you at least, is unnecessary and overvalued thing; still do you believe it does not better life?Like nearly everything in life a balance tends to be healthy.

Evolution has resulted in humans having emotions that have helped us to survive. Anger helps us fight our enemies where only the strongest survive, love makes us show compassion for others and protect our children, and as such helps the community survive.

If you believe that love must be present for you to feel satisfied with your life then life will not be good for you when love is missing and you will spend much time searching. My life is complete without emotional love, and if love presents itself then it becomes a bonus, to be savored and enjoyed, and then let go so that life can return to normal.

Love is fine for some of the time, but what I don’t need to do is to organize my life so that there is someone else around all of the time, because most of the time emotions are not paramount. Life is full of many things and love is only just one of them.

Some people need and depend on their emotions, others have been brainwashed into thinking that emotional love is vital, others, like me, can find a satisfactory, healthy, and very happy balance.

So no, life is not necessarily better with love; since the sacrifices and time used to find and maintain a loving state very often outweigh any perceived gain.

Cris (note no h)

You have no idea how sad I am for you!

Believe me, I am well aware that love comes with great pitfalls. Believe me, I understand it can cause great unhappiness if you believe love is a necessity and spend time searching for it.

The fact is:
1) If it really is love, the pitfalls won't be noticed or cared for
2) If you're a logical human being, this feeling doesn't come about. Like I said, I don't worry because I realize the futility of it, so I don't worry about this.

Cris, I believe your comments to make you one of the most pathetic human beings I have encountered. Probably one of the more intelligent and logical though.

I have never seen beauty come from anything but emotions, and you have eliminated this from life.

The fact that you even use the word 'satisfactory' to describe your life saddens me, I would never think of using that word. Satisfactory means that it's okay; not bad, nothing incredible. Happy is another one of those words, not very strong. I believe your life is probably perfectly healthy, but I am very glad I won't use it.

Love can lead to terrible things...look at these guys! At first I thought it was cute but....one begins to worry about thier sanity.

http://www.sciforums.com/f19/s/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6206&pagenumber=2

:D

Tyler
Cris, I believe your comments to make you one of the most pathetic human beings I have encountered. Probably one of the more intelligent and logical though.

Ignore him Cris. I like you and so does Cthulhu. We think you are a fine man, and we have never even met you.

And Cthulhu dosen't exist, so what does that say?!

I have never seen beauty come from anything but emotions, and you have eliminated this from life.

Never walked outside on a starry night, or studied the dynamics of the 'evolution' of the universe? Or taken calculus, and got to the point where you realize that "Wow! Between any two numbers there are an infinite number of numbers!" and had the realization soak through your body, delaying worries about your grades in the class?

Have you never dreamed in numbers? Of manipulating equations? I have, and it is utterly stunning.

Study the way stars convert hydrogen into higher elements. Study the way giants eventually nova because they have built up too much lead in thier core. Gold, and Uranium, are synthesized in the resulting nova.

These stars will never love you. They will never care, and they 'died' long before humans even evolved. But, I cannot describe this process without a smile.

Tyler,

I realize you are still a child, although I am sure you do not think of yourself that way, but nevertheless you have not lived long enough to comprehend my perspective, and no matter how many words of description I use you will remain ignorant until you experience life for yourself. At the moment you possess only a naïve idealistic worldview, and I know that many aspects of this view will be shattered when real life finally hits you. I’ve been there and seen for myself and I now have three teenage daughters; the youngest is 15, who often indicate the same limited view that you are demonstrating. If you have any wisdon then you should listen to what I say rather than irrationally assume your lack of experince makes you somehow superior to me.

You have no idea how sad I am for you! Your sadness reveals only your inability to understand my position. You would be wise to withhold your judgment until you are in a position to properly comprehend.

Believe me, I am well aware that love comes with great pitfalls. Believe me, I understand it can cause great unhappiness if you believe love is a necessity and spend time searching for it. Do you? How? You cannot have experienced anything relevant yet. You are speaking only from theory, and you are only hoping that you know.

The fact is:
1) If it really is love, the pitfalls won't be noticed or cared for
2) If you're a logical human being, this feeling doesn't come about. Like I said, I don't worry because I realize the futility of it, so I don't worry about this. Well no. Love doesn’t feed you or sustain you. Savor love for what it is, a pleasant emotion and no more. If you seek only love then your life will be a failure and you will end in misery. Find a balance.

Cris, I believe your comments to make you one of the most pathetic human beings I have encountered. Probably one of the more intelligent and logical though. That is a double edged sword, compliments combined with an insult. It doesn’t matter though since I know you are incapable of understanding just yet.

I have never seen beauty come from anything but emotions, and you have eliminated this from life. You don’t seem to have understood me at all. I have never said I have eliminated emotions from my life. They have their place but they don’t rule me.

The fact that you even use the word 'satisfactory' to describe your life saddens me, I did? The context was about a satisfactory balance not about a satisfactory life. Life can comprise emotions and intellectual pursuits. The correct balance achieves the best life can offer. An extreme at either end results in some degree of distress.

Happy is another one of those words, not very strong. Are you saying that love doesn’t make you happy? States of superlatives tend to be impossible to maintain for any significant duration. So tell me, what is better than being happy? And whatever you choose can you maintain that state for any practical length of time.

Balance.

Cris

Cris, what point is there to debate other than to learn? I have never argued without any other reason

My point of view, Cris, is that you are eliminating one thing from your life which can (note: CAN) be great. I realize many things in life can be great. To me, I love just playing shinny (Canuck word for outdoor hockey. sorry if you already know this but I have run into many an American who doesn't know the word), I greatly enjoy playing my guitar, I could not live (or, not enjoy life) without a persuit of philosophical knowledge. I believe love can be just another on the list which enriches life. I fail to see the logic in erasing one thing which can be great from your life.

Then I think (and please, correct me if this is wrong): maybe he figures the chances of pain or general unhappiness outweighs the possibility of generaly great times. And that's where my sad comment comes in. I see this as sad, where love and emotional connection with another human being has more a chance of minus than plus, I see this as a sad and sorry point in life.

You're right, maybe I will end up coming to this conclusion in my own life and experiences, but I hope not. I realize it can lead to a very healthy, balanced life, but not one I hope I end up in.

As for Xev: hmmm, you had your place in those posts as well!!

As for your comments on beauty in numbers. Is it the numbers themselves that make them beautiful, or your emotional interputation of them? Like you said, the truth 'soaks' into you.

Logically speaking, what beauty or amazement is there in the creation or eolution of stars? It's all very explainable and logical in the long run.

what is unconditional love and does it exist?

Unconditional Love is God... :)

Is the Love Jesus was talking about: Love your enemies!

Love people no matter how they are and no matter what they do. For example, God Loves us even though we sin. Jesus either. He died for our sins.

If you have unconditional Love in your Heart, you'll Love everyone. You'll allways follow the Word. This is the True acceptance of Jesus in your Heart: is the acceptance of Christ, Love.

That's unconditional Love: the highter and most powerful Truth that exists.

Love,
Nelson

tyler,

Cris, what point is there to debate other than to learn? I have never argued without any other reason.I hope I didn’t imply that you should not debate, but that you will be more effective debating from something you really know, rather than theory. And if you do want to theorize then don’t phrase your statement as if you know. I hope that made sense. But, hey, I’m here to learn as well, and really this is my third year here and I truly have learnt a great deal. So enjoy your time here, and if I seem belligerent at times then ignore me.

My point of view, Cris, is that you are eliminating one thing from your life which can (note: CAN) be great. No I’m not eliminating anything, I’m just not actively pursuing something that some others consider important. When you are young and lack ‘loving’ experiences, and are bombarded by TV shows and songs that push the idea continually then it should come as no surprise that to a large extent you are being indoctrinated to believe what you are hearing. The idea that love solves everything is a mythical nonsense. But you do need to try it and discover for yourself. And as I said earlier the personalities of some people are very dependent on emotional activity. It is not that I don’t have emotions it is just that I am not dependent on them. Do you see the difference?

Oh and I’m not an American BTW, I’m British, but I live permanently in California.

I believe love can be just another on the list which enriches life. I fail to see the logic in erasing one thing which can be great from your life. Right, and here we are in agreement. I’m not erasing love from my life, I’m just not looking for it or feel a strong desire to go and look for it.

Then I think (and please, correct me if this is wrong): maybe he figures the chances of pain or general unhappiness outweighs the possibility of generaly great times. And that's where my sad comment comes in. I see this as sad, where love and emotional connection with another human being has more a chance of minus than plus, I see this as a sad and sorry point in life. I’m not sure I quite understand what you are saying here, but I’ll take a guess.

There are those who avoid love because when love is lost or is removed then they are very afraid of being hurt. That I agree is very sad. One should leave oneself open to any and all experiences, and that has been something I have always done. And at times I have taken it to an extreme where I have deliberately placed myself in awkward or difficult situations just to test my ability on how well I can solve the problem.

You're right, maybe I will end up coming to this conclusion in my own life and experiences, but I hope not. I realize it can lead to a very healthy, balanced life, but not one I hope I end up in. Don’t pre-judge, just stay cool and allow things to happen, and experience them. Good or bad, it doesn’t matter, every event is an opportunity to learn and to experience. Emotions have their place, use to them to make yourself happy, don’t let them control you since then your life will become erratic and miserable.

Have fun whatever,
Cris

Truthseeker,

You would be wise to keep religion to the religion forum. Not everyone is happy to have religion rammed in their face all the time. And the science forums are where many people come to escape from your particular diatribes.

Cris

*Unconditional Love is God...
For example, God Loves us even though we sin. Jesus either. He died for our sins.*

Sorry, I disagree firmly with you about seeing god as unconditional love! You know how many people die every day because of this love of god??? Jesus, look at the world!!! All those godforsaken holy wars!!!

I am real sorry, you tick me off with this crap. Shouldn't have replied on this, get so angry when I read this kind of nonsense. Jesus died for our sins??? Where did it lead his followers??? Into holy wars!!!

Oh, I quit it already. I agree with Cris. Please take the god-talking to the Religion Forum. I don't go there, and have good reasons for not going there...

"I don’t see that being in a state of love is either necessary or highly desirable. Once you can ignore the media pressure, and have the courage to learn how to support and depend on yourself, then partnerships can then be seen as a disadvantage rather than an advantage."

"So if you really want love with another then you will need to work for it, and expect a great deal of pain en-route. Learning to be truly independent and learning to love yourself is a far more practical solution to a very happy and contented lifestyle."

These were the comments which sparked my interest in discovering your true feelings on the situation. In the above comments you state, quite clearly, that love and relationships are a minus to life. That love and a loving relationship are not enriching aspects of a life.

My point is, being in a loving relationship is not about having "the courage to learn how to support and depend on yourself", it's about enjoying life with someone else. It's about sharing yourself and your life. It's about just that, an emotional feeling.

"be truly independent and learning to love yourself is a far more practical solution"

Why? Because it's easier? Because it brings about less pain (incidentally, meaning it's easier)?

And is that for everyone?


As a note:

I watch Discovery Channel/Simpsons/Third Rock. I read Kant/Neitzsche/Smith/Marx/Lenin/Mao/Thomas/Plato... My favourite movies are Usual Suspects/Requiem For A Dream/Pi/Spanish Prisoner. My music choices are Stones/Rage/Hendrix/Radiohead. Believe me, the entertainment media reaching me is far from your stereotypical view of a young person today's interests. I'm not claiming to believe myself older than I am, but I think you overestimate the patheticness of all youth.

Banshee,

It was not the Love of God that caused Holy Wars, but our ignorance about it. The Bible says clearly: Love your enemies. And still those proclaimed "Christians" killed in the name of Jesus. Poor Jesus... he died for us and still is ignored...
And all the other wise that died shouting Love and Compassion to people...
Whatever...
If I continue like that, I shall be one of them...

Love,
Nelson

Love and compassion are in you, it's up to any human him/herself to give love and compassion to others.

It's not something which is told to you by a book. It's an Inner Self 'thing'. Up to every human to develop those feelings and spread them to other people.

A plain look at humans gives the 'image' that the so called god and the devil are in you yourself and every other human being. It is a pity a lot of humans give in more to their colder side then their warm, loving and caring feelings.

Love and Light to you Nelson...

:)

Banshee,

Agree... :)

It's not something which is told to you by a book.

Well... the Book of Love talks about it...
But I allways say that it's not from the Book, I say that the Word of God is in my Heart.

I'm Christian since some months ago... and look how much I understand about it. I knew it before, because it was IN my Heart, it has allways been there and it will allways be. It's in the Hearts of all people.

But many people, if not most, can't see it in their Hearts. That's why God "wrote" the Bible, to help us to see our Hearts with more clarity. The Truth is not without... the Truth is within! The Bible itself says it. The Bible says that we have to believe with our Hearts. The Bible says that we have to understand with our Hearts. The Bible says that we have to act with our Hearts. Our Hearts is our Essence. That's the message of the Bible: you empower yourself when you belive in your Love. ;)

Love,
Nelson

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
*The Truth is not without... the Truth is within!*

Yes, within every humans heart! Don't need a book, written by a monk!, to tell me that. Just listen to your Inner Self. Up to every human being how to handle this.

I quit with this. I am sorry. I do agree with your kind of view, not with what is written in the bible. There is too much hurt done to humans feelings because of its interpretation...

Banshee,

There is too much hurt done to humans feelings because of its interpretation...

Yeah... unfortunatly, yes...
But it's just a misinterpretation... it's not that the Bible is wrong... is that "we" can't intepret it right...

Love,
Nelson

And it's that sentance that makes religion a pitiful thing.

You claim that the people who cause war are interputting it wrong. They claim you are wrong. More people claim both of you are wrong. Everyone has different views.

It's interputive, that leaves it very open to detrimental interputations. Anyone else here from Toronto?

Tyler,

Do you thing war is a right or a good thing...?

Love,
Nelson

TruthSeeker...Sigh!!! :(

The discussion is about LOVE, not WAR! Please, sow your seeds of love without religious babbling...;)

Banshee,

I can't do nothing if he prefers to talk about war. We can choose between light and darkness... But I don't understand why they continue choosing darkness...

I'm doing the best I can to preach Love here...
I can do nothing if they close their eyes to it...

Love,
Nelson

No, Truthseeker, what you're preaching is Love on the basis of the Christian God. What we, as individuals, understand is that love does not only exist from your belief higher being. We as people have decided for whatever reason not to believe in something based on zero proof, so incidentally, we beleive that love can come from within a person's own mind and that a more powerful, all-loving (yet one who does nothing about his love) God is not necessary for love.

Yes love comes from within us, ourselves. You can chose to give love or you can with hold it and grow older and colder, til you are too sour and bitter to ever find love within yourself back again...

Tyler,

No, Truthseeker, what you're preaching is Love on the basis of the Christian God. What we, as individuals, understand is that love does not only exist from your belief higher being. We as people have decided for whatever reason not to believe in something based on zero proof, so incidentally, we beleive that love can come from within a person's own mind and that a more powerful, all-loving (yet one who does nothing about his love) God is not necessary for love.

Mind!?!?
Mind is cold!! :(
Heart is warm... :)

No... you don't understand the concept... Love IS God.
And Love comes from our Hearts, from our Essence, not from our minds...
Your "love" is imperfect and makes you suffer (I'm generalizing) because it comes from the mind.
But the Love that comes from the Heart, from our Essence, is Perfect, Unlimited, Wise, Timeless, Unconditional, Impersonal, Almighty... It's your Light, it is YOU, your true you.

Love,
Nelson

"Feel The Peace, Talk About It, Open Heart, Talk About It...Everyone, Dream About it...Sowing The Seeds Of Love...Time To Eat All Your Words, Swallow Your Pride, Open Your Eyes...Every Day And Every Hour, I believe In The Sunflower...I Believe In Love Power..."

:) :) :)

My 'imperfect' love makes me suffer how? Because I don't have the honour of putting my faith and purpose of being in the hands of another? Because I can rely on my self and the other people around me for love instead of a unproven higher being?

And what the hell do you mean by differing love from the mind with love from the heart? Are you implying that your heart, the muscle that creates blood flow, somehow creates the emotion of love?

Tyler...

From the Heart... from your Essence... your True Self... the core of your being...

Banshee understood perfectly... why can't you? ;)

Love,
Nelson

Unconditional love = Love given out entirely without being judgemental

Ha~~~ :D

Cheerio,
The Fox Lady

Truthseeker, now you sound like an idiot.

From my 'true self'??

I'm contimplating drilling a hole through my skull with a very dull screw driver this is such a stupid comment. Your 'inner self' or 'true essense' or whatever the hell else you want to call it is STILL FROM YOUR MIND!!!!!!

Tyler,

How many times I have to shake you... :D?

...STILL FROM YOUR MIND!!!!!!

Nope. Your mind is not perfect. But your Heart is.

Ok... now you are saying that Love comes from the mind. Do you believe that? Because then, your "love" is imperfect.

I meant that you have to rediscover yourself. Shut up your mind. Sit relaxed. Enjoy the moment. Feel Nature... that's a good way. See and feel what's beautiful for you. Here is an assignment for you. In your next holidays, go to the most beautiful place you can imagine and be in contact with Nature. Breath pure air and relax your mind. Once you have a relax state of mind, you will become more aware.

There is a little voice inside you trying to tell you something important, but your mind hide it because it's allways so loudly speaking.

Once you get in touch with Nature and see beauty outside you, you'll find beauty within you. That's your Love. You ARE Love. Your real you is perfect... ;)

I'll continue later... with there's more to say. ;)
Can't talk anymore now... :(

Love,
Nelson

Perhaps if I pose it this way:
Describe it chemically/anatomically on how my heart, the chambered muscular organ in my chest that pumps blood throughout my body, is the source of love.

If you are talking about the metaphoric heart (as in "I love you from the bottom of my heart") - the emotions felt are still created through the brain!!!

If you are talking about my 'soul' or some other religious mumbo jumbo with no proof to back it, then I say just that, prove it. I'm guessing you'll say something like 'I can't prove it, I just know it. I know truth'

Well, I have two things to say. One, every Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Jew, Hindu, etc. feels that.

Two, deep in the bottom of my 'heart' I KNOW that on Pluto, in the very centre of the planet, exists an eight eyed, invisible, winged, giraffe-rhino. Does that mean it's real?

Tyler,

Ok... specifically...

If you are talking about the metaphoric heart (as in "I love you from the bottom of my heart") - the emotions felt are still created through the brain!!!

Yes... it's metaphoric... but not this chemical love. I was talking about your Essence, the core of your being...

I was talking about yourself without all your experiences. Your true self. You are molded by your experinces. Your beliefs are all based on your experiences... agree with me?

Ok... I was talking about your Real you, buried below all those experiences. Reminding your childhood, for example, is a good way to remember yourself. How did you Love when you were a child? How did you feel? If you can remember that, perhaps you can remember Yourself...

Love,
Nelson

The psychology theory I believe and that I have found to be most accepted states that most of our personality is decided before the age of five. I don't know about you, but I remember NOTHING from before then!

I do!! I remember when I was 3 years old. At least, my mother told me I was 3 at the time. I have a very clear memory of our cat back then and how she came into our house. As clear as a picture...

Has nothing to do with the love discussed here. Then again, it was love indeed. The love for my cat...! ;)

Tyler,

I might know the answer for this question... but anyways...
Do you still act like a child?

The psychology theory I believe and that I have found to be most accepted states that most of our personality is decided before the age of five.

Indeed... I use different kinds of Pscychology mixed with Science, Philosophy and Religion to draw my conclusions...
I'm pretty investigative... so don't be worried about what I say... it's usually after lots of study... ;)

That's pretty much Freudian Phscychology... but I mix it with Junguian and other stuff too... ;)


I still remember my first traumatic experience... I was 2 years old...

I was in my bedroom, at night, my mom pregnant from my sister, and discussing with my father about financial problems. I got scared thinking that they would get divorce. So I went to the living room and told them that I couldn't sleep...

They told me to come back to my bedroom and sleep.
After that, they started to discuss...
Dad: See! Now you woke up the child...
Mom: No... not me! You did it!
Dad: No... you did it... :(

I guess I separed my parents... :(:(:(

Then... after some years, this was buried inside my subconscient and to stop my guilty I inconsciently throw it all in my sister... and finished by being violent with her some times... :(

I still remember one discussion between me, my sister and my grandma when I was about six. I wanted to watch something on TV and my sister other thing. Here is somehow the discussion:
Sister: I want to watch... (I don't remember what... of course)
Me: But I want to watch...
Grandma: No... wait Nelson... let your sister watch it... you already watched TV before (don't remember the day before of in the same day...).
Me: {started to cry... (I was about 6 years old, ok... ?:rolleyes: ) to kick everything and throw everything everywhere} It's allways like that! She allways wins!!

It's still stuck into my subconscient, but I can control it now. You see... that's a good exemple of how it works this conscient/subconscient thing. The idea of guilty was unconscioulsy transfered from me to my sister... ;)

PS: I don't agree with ALL Freudian Pscychlogy. I do agree with this part, but I don't agree with his ideas of collective pscychology anormalities caused by repression of sex or death (focused only on that. It does have SOME influence, but not ALL. He forgot something called Religious beliefs.)

Love,
Nelson

You knew what divorce was at 2 years of age?

Wow. I'm damn impressed.

Anyway, are you suggesting that we are born with personalities?

I don't know about you, but I remember NOTHING from before then!

My earliest definitive memory is from about 2 or 3. Then again, I had to work to remember back that far.

I have what could be memories from before then, but they could be confabulations.

In response to Tyler, re divorce: I did know that somthing was.....wrong....between my parents. Presumably Nelson knew the same, but has placed a label on his intuitive sense.

Funny, I didn't blame myself for my parent's divorce, even though my mother would occasionally blame me.

Tyler:
Anyone else here from Toronto?

Meechegan. Seems we are a bunch of northerners here!

Nelson:

Nope. Your mind is not perfect. But your Heart is.

Ok... now you are saying that Love comes from the mind. Do you believe that? Because then, your "love" is imperfect.

Love does come from the mind. All emotion comes from the brain.

Could you explain 'essence' and 'true self'? Do you mean 'personality'? Because I am very confused.

What is a person's 'essence'?

Michigan eh? The capital of American hockey!!! Many a tournament played there!!!

Tyler,

Anyway, are you suggesting that we are born with personalities?

Not exactly... I'm suggesting that your Real self born with you but you forgot because of so many life experiences...

For example, when I was a little child, about 2 years old, I was really funny and outgoing. But further deceptions and traumatic events in my life made me close myself to people, I became serious, sad and silent. My Real Myself is not like that. I'm extremely joyful, wise and outgoing... but my life experince buried my real self and what I have now is this... #@$*...

I'm fighting to get myself back... but it's hard alone... because of many traumatic events...

Xev,

Love does come from the mind. All emotion comes from the brain.

I don't agree that emotions are just chemical reactions...
I believe that there is something else...

Could you explain 'essence' and 'true self'? Do you mean 'personality'? Because I am very confused.

What is a person's 'essence'?

Deep inside yourself...

Like... how you truly is without your mind, your beliefs and your knowledge. Every Essence MUST be simple. Do you agree with me? Then, your Essence MUST be beyond your mind, your background and your beliefs... I'll see if I post a new thread related to our Essence and Religion... I'll be explaining with Philosophy and a little bit of Pscychology...

Love,
Nelson

The problem with your claims are that they are not based on fact, and actually have fact contradicting them. So what part of our body is our personality? Or are you basically telling us it's something like a soul? In that case, go enjoy your beliefs and we'll keep searching for facts.

Tyler,

what part of our body is our personality?

You mean physically or pscychologically?

Pscychologically, our true personality is buried below all our beliefs and life experiences. I already explained that. And I'll soon start a new thread on that. As soon as I start the new thread, I post the link here for you... ;)

Love,
Nelson

There's zero point in debating with him, he chooses to ignore fact and make up random things. He says that anatomically there are other parts that decide our personality. This is just a belief and a blind and factless one.

By the way: Hey, you guys get to win a Cup this year! Or wait, I should say, BUY a Cup!

Indeed! And we have the WINGS!!

When do we get to try out these new fangled things?

...I told you, what you know is true... that we can fly...'cause we all got Wings, but some of us don't know why...

Since when is Love a Science in which evidence is needed?:bugeye: I agree with TruthSeeker, we exist from different layers. Lay off all your made-up attitudes and be true to yourself, really true to yourself! You may be surprised at what you might find...

Originally posted by Xev
*Why don't you develop your own theory so you can contribute somthing beyond snide little comments?*

I thought that was your job? Why don't you read back the thread? Then you can see how you are only out to get to people who don't agree with you.

In every thread I see you show up, you have pesky little remarks on quotes you take from someone else.

Don't you have to say something for yourself?

My goodness, now the thread is turning into the opposite of Love...:rolleyes:

You guys have 11 freakin' olympians on your squad. One of them didn't even make your team!!!!! The Jays are decent but not good. I'm not a huge baseball fan myself though. Was a competitive player until I broke my arm beginning of one summer.

Ahhh memories.

By the way banshee, some of us need at least a bit of evidence before we'll believe something.

Xev,

Nelson is presenting a theory, we are interested in seeing evidence for it.

I already shown it. I'm using pscychology which anyone can learn in any University or College to explain how to get to your True Self. It's a Scientific Proof! I just got the Freudian Pscychology and mixed it up with Junguian Pscychology and some Philosophicals ideas that I got from Religions. That's all.

I CAN'T explain Love with Science. It's impossible to put in words something so deep. But I can give you the path in order for you to discover your True Self, to discover Love within you.
You have to experience it. I gave the way for you to do it. Go and find your evidence, following this way.

It seems that Banshee understood it pretty well...
So, why can't you? ;)

Btw, Banshee... have you seen my new thread? :)
http://www.sciforums.com/t6468/s/thread.html

Love,
Nelson

Illitch I believe is the owner. Any team with Lidstrom, Federov, Yzerman, Shanahan, Robitaille, Hull... must win a Cup or face the fact that they will be a laughing stock the rest of their lives!!! Detroit is a hockey town anyway, they need to focus on the Red Wings. A storied franchise and one of the few Original 6 who are perenial contenders now. If only the Leafs could get back to those days, sigh...

I play lacrosse and hockey competitively. Those are the only sports I'm really any good at anymore, but I looooooooooove them!!! Baseball I played rep (which at the time was like the quivlant of AAA in Toronto) until that summer when I got angry and fed up with my broken arm. It was a sad, sad day for me.
Ah well. I still do long distance running (my mom was a marathoner), but the only sports I'm any good at are lacrosse and hockey. Like I said though - those are MY sports!

In Xev I trust. Mainly because I had to read the name a couple times before I pronounced it right. Sushi is great though, I'll agree with that. Mmmmm, could go for some right now.

So banshee, if you agree with truthseeker (who, ironically enough, won't use fact or evidence to show his 'truths'), give us some evidence. At least then we have somewhere to go on the debate. You have to understand that as long as there are people making claims there will be others to question them, and unless you have evidence, your claim will not be considered.

You have proven nothign!!!!!!!!!

You say - LOVE IS NOT FROM THE BRAIN

Then you say you prove this with psychology?????

How can you be so hypocritical?????

Which martial art?
I did Tae Kwon Do/Kung Fu for 8 years!

Aikiedo and Tae-kwan do. Quite fun, I studied for about 2 years before I had to really clamp down on the way I spent money.

I especially like Aikedo. The philosophy behind it is almost purely defensive (or the way I was taught, it was). A way of using your opponent against himself.

Did you enjoy Kung-Fu?

Xev,

It's not a scientific proof. If it were, you would have proposed an experiment to test your claims. You have not. Besides, you do not even seem to believe in science.

If it's based in pscychology, it's a scientific proof.
I already proposed an experiment, and you have to do it by yourselves...
I believe in Science. You can see it in my posts and threads.

What way? "Love everybody"? That is not possible.

First of all, that's perfectly possible. Second, I was talking about you looking to your past to find your Essence. Tyler agreed that I'm using scientific methods:

The psychology theory I believe and that I have found to be most accepted states that most of our personality is decided before the age of five. I don't know about you, but I remember NOTHING from before then!

You can see it in the fourth page... ;)

Explain 'essence'. Provide evidence for its existance.

I already did many times...

Look Nelson, I am a Skeptic. The world is full of us. You will have to provide evidence if you wish to convince others of your 'Gospel of Love'.

I already did... and you agreed with it. If you want a phisical evidence for a philosophy, and for emotions, you won't find it.
Just reason, and you'll understand.

Love,
Nelson

You have yet to explain anything. No. You have explained much. You have yet to give evidence to anything.

No. You have yet to explain anything.

I can't decide, both statements are true. The fact is, you tell us personality has nothing to do with your brain, yet YOU HAVE NOT TOLD US WHAT EVIDENCE YOU HAVE OF THIS OR WHERE IT THEN COMES FROM!!!!!!!!!!!

TELL US!!!!!!!!!!!

IF IT IS NOT THE BRAIN, THEN WHERE???????????????

You're very slowly driving me mad truthseeker. All your crap about being born with a personality proves nothing. Even if we are born with certain traits, it is becuase of the chemical make up of our brain and body.

Xev - Kung-fu is the ultimate in martial arts in my opinion. Kung fu is about being able to take yourself away from earth and then dominate earth. I use to do mixed tournaments and the kung fu guys always won. The reason for this was that kung-fu, unlike most martial arts, teaches you a way of fighting which works against all other types of martial arts. Or rather, it teaches you how to decide what type of defence to use.

Nelson:
If it's based in pscychology, it's a scientific proof.
I already proposed an experiment, and you have to do it by yourselves...

Basing it on science (and Freud and Jung were not scientists) does not make it a science.

Where is this proposed experiment? I missed it somhow.

To look into our past? To examine the past? I have done that many, many times and I have not seen any evidence of a unchanging essence or soul. If anything, I see that I change over time.

I already did many times...

Okay, I guess you did explain. I was still a bit confused. Sorry.

But you have yet to show evidence. If you have, and both Tyler and I missed it, could you please repeat it?

Tyler: Thanks for the information. I shall definitly look into that, it sounds like somthing I would enjoy.

Scientific proof of how to get to your "real self"? Good grief Charlie Brown...

Sports: My family breeds, trains, and rides horses, although I don't ride any more. Used to play squash, soccer, rugby, Australian rules football, and some others. Did some Wado Ryu karate years ago, then the stuff you do in the military. I went to a supposed ninja school a few years ago, and some guy had a go at me, and I got him in a headlock and punched and choked him until he quit; some bloody ninja he turned out to be. :)

A buddy of mine, an ex-cop, is heavily into Aikido. It works quite well fo him. It helps that he's 6'2" and about 300 pounds.

truthseeker,

All emotions appear to be controlled by neuro-chemical activity. Love in particular seems to be caused by neuro-chemical activity reactions similar to that caused by some hallucinogenic drugs.

That sense of giddy disorientation, unsinkable euphoria and complete obsession with a new love can be so overpowering it's hard to imagine it's all about emotion.

Now scientists are confirming there indeed may be a lot more going on in a body that's in love than simple, happy thoughts. In fact, a spate of recent studies has zeroed in on exactly what kind of chemical and neurological activities occur at different stages of human and animal relationships.

Try this news report from ABC.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Holiday/scienceoflove010214.html

Cris

I give up explaining this to you.
It's just too simple for you to understand...
Look to my signature... :rolleyes:

Love,
Nelson

No! Look to my sig! Cthulhu fhtagn!

Thanks Cris. Very interesting.

Shall we turn this into a discussion of sports?

Wow, I thought the science vs religion thread was difficult to comprehend. Truthseeker is surely an underdog here, but one thing comes across clearly in his posts--an intense desire to explain something that is purely subjective and painful at that. I suspect that relying on psychology to explain is imperfect at best because it is such an imperfect science. While I was working in the field, methods changed as often as the personnel. With people suffering from multiple personality disorder resulting from sexual abuse as children, I think the ideas he is trying to put across become clearer simply because of the intensity of the experience. Most of the literature in the field agrees that it is necessary to recombine the whole personality--especially with the innocent child that forms the basis of all future personality. The innocent, loving child really does take all the blame upon themselves for what occurs and retreats to an area that is safe for their "perfect love". Jesus said "suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of God. Except ye be as a little child, you shall not enter the Kingdom. To suggest that personality is imprinted smacks of predestination. Just because God "knew" you from the womb doesn't mean He created a personality to do with as He pleased. It means it was a personality He could work with.

Science does have something to say about the brain. It has it's counterpart in the Old Testament Sanctuary Service. There were two veils--one was at the entrance to the Holy Place, and the other allowed entrance into the Most Holy where perfect love was located as represented by the Shekinah Glory. The brain also has two veils called the dura mater and the arachnoid. You can't get to either the Most Holy place or that in the inner recesses of the brain by yourself. There's a definite process involved with each. In the case of the molested child, the untreated person exhibited all kinds of unhappy behavior resulting in broken relationships, estranged children, and often suicide. In the case of the unrepentant sinner, it resulted in separation from God and eventually death without hope.

The whole concept of loving your enemies and forgiving "seventy time seven" deal entirely with your own mental and spiritual health. Bearing animosity for any length of time is detrimental to your health.

sonofbabylon,

Thanks for support me... :)

Truthseeker is surely an underdog here...

What do you mean by underdog...?

Jesus said "suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of God. Except ye be as a little child, you shall not enter the Kingdom. To suggest that personality is imprinted smacks of predestination. Just because God "knew" you from the womb doesn't mean He created a personality to do with as He pleased. It means it was a personality He could work with.

Thanks for the explanations...

I was thinking of posting something about that in my other thread... now, you post it here... :)

In the case of the molested child, the untreated person exhibited all kinds of unhappy behavior resulting in broken relationships, estranged children, and often suicide. In the case of the unrepentant sinner, it resulted in separation from God and eventually death without hope.

Pretty much my case, the first one... :(

Love,
Nelson

I'm gone from these boards in one post if truthseeker doesn't do one of the following things:

A) Tell me where true self comes from if not from the brain (anatomically speaking); AND, give some evidence at least to support this

B) Admitt that all things linked to personality and such are connected to the brain and the body


Don't you dare fricken tell me one more time that you have done this. You have not. Read your posts genius, every time I say 'tell me where personality comes from then?' you say - I already told you! or ignore it completely.

Tyler,

I would like to begin quoting the pscychologist who made the Junguian Pscychology, Carl Jung:

"Your vision will become clear
only when you look into your heart ...
Who looks outside, dreams.
Who looks inside, awakens."

Carl Jung

...:D

What he calls heart... I already said...:rolleyes: ... means Essence.

A) Tell me where true self comes from if not from the brain (anatomically speaking); AND, give some evidence at least to support this

This is not the important here. You are too attached to physical things. We are talking about a feeling. We are not talking about something physical. So... stop asking this because there's no point on discussing this...

B) Admitt that all things linked to personality and such are connected to the brain and the body

Why should I admit that. Our thoughts comes from our mind... But there is something beyond: ourselves. And you want a proof, don't you? So use reason:
If when you were a child, you couldn't recognize words in your brain, how did you learned? How did you discovered things if you didn't rationalize?
Is there anything beyond our minds? Yes... our true personality... because as childs we couldn't rationalize... ;)

Love,
Nelson

Tyler: C'mon, stick around. Please? If he annoys you that bad, use the 'ignore' function?

Sonofbabylon:

The brain also has two veils called the dura mater and the arachnoid. You can't get to either the Most Holy place or that in the inner recesses of the brain by yourself. There's a definite process involved with each. In the case of the molested child, the untreated person exhibited all kinds of unhappy behavior resulting in broken relationships, estranged children, and often suicide. In the case of the unrepentant sinner, it resulted in separation from God and eventually death without hope.

Are you suggesting a link between being an 'unrepentant sinner' and an abused child?

I haven't done much 'penting' lately....is that what 'Penthouse' is for? (Yes, I know that was a bad joke)

The whole concept of loving your enemies and forgiving "seventy time seven" deal entirely with your own mental and spiritual health. Bearing animosity for any length of time is detrimental to your health.

No it's not.

Jung spoke metaphorically. Looking into your heart or yourself means looking into what drives you. What your motivations to do things are, what you truly feel and such.

Your problem is in not realizing that these are still linked to the brain.

"This is not the important here. You are too attached to physical things. We are talking about a feeling. We are not talking about something physical. So... stop asking this because there's no point on discussing this..."

I don't know how many times I can say this, but; I understand perfectly what you're saying, you're just wrong. You're just, plain, wrong!!! FEELINGS COME FROM THE BRAIN

Read earlier areas of this thread and listen to Cris as he explains the chemical reasoning behind love. Your emotions come from your brain, not from some spirit. Science has given evidence to suggest this COUNTLESS times. You have ZEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO evidence let alone proof to suggest your theory of personality existing outside the brain.


Here is where you get to actually being a moron and making me leave: "If when you were a child, you couldn't recognize words in your brain, how did you learned? How did you discovered things if you didn't rationalize?"

To some degree, babies rationalize. To some degree, apes without words rationalize. Your problem is that you seem to think words are the only way to think. That's so unbelievable wrong it disgusts me. It is possible to reason without words, you just don't do it because you've lived your whole life doing it. Take a shroom/acid trip, you'll get what I mean. When you stop thinking in words it doesn't mean you're thinking outside your brain, it means you're thinking without words. It's not a difficult concept, yet you seem to think words are all we have.

Read a little neitzsche.

I'm giving you a final chance. You have one chance and I am officially gone.

Tell me where this 'true personality' exists (if you're talking about a 'spirit' then just fucking say it, don't jump around it). Then, give me some VALUABLE evidence to support this.

On a note:
- That we thought without words, IS NOT EVIDENCE
- That we are born with personalities, IS NOT EVIDENCE (as all it is is PROOF that the chemical balance we are born with affects our personalities)
- That we couldn't rationalize or reason as children, IS NOT EVIDENCE AS IT IS NOT TRUE!!!!!!

You talk of finding a person's true self, you sound like a stoner. All you sound like is one of the countless encounters I've had with acid users. It's officially hurting my head how hard it is for you to understand this, but your personality is nothing more than a representation of the hormones and chemicals in your body mixed with how your personality developed during childhood and adult life.

And how is it Cris won't pop in on this? Perhaps I'll have to come back and quote him as I doubt randomguessseeker won't bother going back to read what he wrote.

Xev: I can't stick around if this is what's here. I came here hoping to find people much smarter and insightful into science than I, not someone with a groundless theory that contradicts all science fact we know. I can stand few things less than pure hatred, but ignorance is one of them.

Tyler,

Stick around please. You’ve demonstrated an ability to think and we need such posters here.

At the moment, well as of last weekend, I’ve just started a 3-week vacation so my time here is going to be very limited, so I’m choosing what to post based on ease and speed.

You’ve doubtless realized by this time that TruthSeeker’s comments are sheer gibberish, and I agree his label is the opposite of what we observe. The real challenge is not the topic so much as more about how to deal with someone who refuses to debate based on reason and logic. That is the effect of religious indoctrination. If you more carefully look at his posting style you can observe his significant laziness, e.g. no attempt to provide justification for any of his claims, and frequent suggestions that you look for yourself. His adoption of a religion is inevitable with such an attitude. Religions specifically do not seek proofs or evidence (the essence of faith), and have already determined that a God is the answer to everything. Very convenient huh?

But without his desire or ability to debate with reason you will simply become frustrated when you do follow the rules and he doesn’t. The typical religionist does not base their claims on reality, and there is little we can do to convince them of the need to do otherwise. This means that any reasoned argument you present will be simply dismissed because it may not match with their fantasies.

I have not found any effective method of dealing with the purely irrational people such as Truthseeker, apart from simply ignoring them. I just hope they don’t get their hands on nuclear weapons. Bin Laden was of the same ilk, and his actions have been bad enough.

As for Brain activity: Then yes I think you are on the right track. From the moment the brain starts to form, neural networks begin to form based almost entirely on sensory input. There is some hard-wiring that allows basic functions and there are many hereditary effects that pre-dispose some areas to be stronger than others in some people, including survival traits, but other than those features the brain is effectively a clean slate in the growing infant. All memories, skills, and knowledge must be learnt as the new human grows and exercises its curiosity.

Cris

Tyler

I recall reading a medical research report from somewhere recently about ideas that, since our brains and nervous system are of similar materials, there is a possibility that such thigns as thoughts, feelings, memories and so on are stored not just in the brain but throughout our bodies in some way. No, this does not mean you will forget your first five years of life if you have your leg amputated. But the idea was that there is a commonality across all these cells throughout the body. I'm not sure how far this research has progressed, and I don't know if there have been any positive results at all, but one example cited was about such things as a woman who has never driven a car or such in her entire life receiving a heart transplant and suddenly being able to drive cars and ride motorcycles, and so on.

One more thing: It is weakness to let others guide your actions. If you choose to leave sciforums, do it because you want to, not because someone else drives you to it. But I for one would rather you didn't, since, as Cris said, your posts are worth reading.

Tyler: There are lots of people knowledgeable in science here. There are also quite a few skeptics (Look here: http://www.sciforums.com/t6495/s/thread.html). This thread is not representative.....

Of course it's your decision, and I won't beg you to stay but - please please please please please?

Nelson:

This is not the important here. You are too attached to physical things. We are talking about a feeling. We are not talking about something physical. So... stop asking this because there's no point on discussing this...

FEELINGS ARE PHYSICAL!

http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n02/historia/phineas.htm

http://www.co.broward.fl.us/mei00211.htm

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Mosher2.html

Why should I admit that. Our thoughts comes from our mind... But there is something beyond: ourselves. And you want a proof, don't you? So use reason:
If when you were a child, you couldn't recognize words in your brain, how did you learned? How did you discovered things if you didn't rationalize?

We don't need language to reason. And, we gained the ability to rationalize after the brain began to develop.

Is there anything beyond our minds? Yes... our true personality... because as childs we couldn't rationalize...

But the ability to rationalize can easily develop! It is not all or nothing!

Well, due largely to Xev and Cris' support as well as Adam's comments; it would be both foolish and childesh of me to leave because of this one thread.

Cris: Enjoy your vacation, don't worry about this. I just kind of got surprised when you're chemical explinations of love were around so much in debate with me but not truthseeker. Thank you for posting here!

Adam: That's an interesting study and one I'd like to read. Though I'm not sure how factual it is, it's probably very intriguing.

Xev: Thank you for your support, and I will stick around! And thank you for continuosly supporting the side I took up in this debate!

The whole concept of loving your enemies and forgiving "seventy time seven" deal entirely with your own mental and spiritual health. Bearing animosity for any length of time is detrimental to your health.

I agree.

The whole point of the thread is to debate Love, not chemical reactions! Truly, you guys are not only cold but can't understand anything that is worth listening...

Love,
Nelson

Truthseeker I want you to read this and understand it:

You are the single worst debater in this forum I have encountered. You avoid the questions we pose. You do not give evidence to support your arguements. You have shown huge disrespect to myself and Xev in not having the guts to consider how wrong you are and not even backing your groundless theories.

You wish to believe love is something more than chemical reactions. That's great, I do to. The difference is, I have the ability to disregard what I wish and face facts and evidence. The beauty is that despite understanding the scientific reasoning behind love, I can still enjoy it. It's possible to accept the evidence and truths and then realize how little they matter to you. What matters, I think, to you, is that love is a beautiful thing. You see this scientific, cold, explination of love and it becomes less romantic. Well, yes, it does become less romantic. But only if you let it. Like I said, it's possible to know the truth and then realize how little the scientific truth matters because love is love and no amount of scientific insight is going to change that.

The whole point of the thread is to debate Love, not chemical reactions!

LOVE IS A CHEMICAL REACTION!

Truly, you guys are not only cold

Hmph. You obviously have not been reading the contributions of Tyler or Cris.

Okay, no flirting. Proves ad hominem.

but can't understand anything that is worth listening..

Er, no. We understand perfectly, but you are wrong.

Tyler: Excellent. (But, I did not continuosly support you :D - look to the second page)

All:

Of course love is chemically based. Does this in any way diminish it? Other than, perhaps injecting a bit of rationality into a rather irrational emotion, I cannot see how knowing this diminishes the strength of the emotion.

It is rather like the thiestic argument that morality is impossible without believing in imaginary Gods. Experiance proves it false.

tyler

Truthseeker I want you to read this and understand it:

You are the single worst debater in this forum I have encountered.

I personally consider Truthseeker to be a master debater. :D

Originally posted by (Q)
I personally consider Truthseeker to be a master debater.
http://www.xecu.net/goofyfish/__public/smiley_lol.gif

I was just looking over the last few posts and it's really difficult to take a stand on anything, yet I can relate to almost all of it. Lots of different emotions getting thrown around here and no real concensus on anything. I took the handle sonofbabylon because that is exactly what I am--a product of conflicting ideas, confusion everywhere, religious zealotry, scientific arrogance, ignorance and strife; and much more .

I really enjoy hearing other ideas--especially those different than my own. Just because I'm a christian doesn't mean I can't believe in evolution and the scientific method. But I also understand personally how easy it is go into judgemental mode when I make a change in my life. You start believing everybody else should too. We evolve physically, mentally and spiritually. Every seven years our bodies totally renews itself into a different person altogether-- right down to the cellular level, possibly even to the atomic level.

I believe in science. I believe in God. I don't see a conflict. I believe in perfect love even though I can't explain it nor will ever fully understand it. To explain it through science is an exercise in futility.

Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's." He also said "I have not come to save the righteous but the sinner". Just 20 years or so after His death, the churches were in disarray because of the desire of men to take the high ground and dictate to others their views of how everything should be. He was a Master Scientist--every lesson He taught was from nature. He was a Master Avatar in that He took no credit for Himself--He did nothing except everything He received from God and told us that we would do well if we did the same.

I eagerly anticipate people tearing down my posts. It gives me a great chuckle. If I can't laugh at myself and admit to wrong in word or deed, I can't be a fully-rounded person. It's not the truth or error of people or situations that gets my attention. It's the ironies that I love. I'll have my hands full trying to explain that one! I am at your mercy.

I'm an atheist, but I suspect there is some sort of spirit stuff going on. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Maybe we have spirits or something. Can't say yet, so I can't rule it out. Maybe it's just some energy stuff going on that we will some day be able to measure and such. No idea.

But the point is, I think there is more to it than mere chemical reactions. More to love, and more to humans in general. I think we are more than meat and bone and stinky chemical juices. And no, I don't have a single shred of proof. Now do I have any idea what that "something more" might be really. No, I don't think it is anything to do with any religions. I suspect it's just another facet of the natural physical universe that we have yet to quantify.

Tyler,

You are the single worst debater in this forum I have encountered.

I remember answering all of them...

You avoid the questions we pose.

Nope...

You do not give evidence to support your arguements.

Yes I did...

You have shown huge disrespect to myself and Xev in not having the guts to consider how wrong you are and not even backing your groundless theories.

YOU (Tyler) shown me desrespect. I keep saying and only because you don't want to see it, you don't want to believe in what I say eventhough it has arguments and proofs. Pretty childish... :rolleyes:

What matters, I think, to you, is that love is a beautiful thing. You see this scientific, cold, explination of love and it becomes less romantic.

Yes... :)

Like I said, it's possible to know the truth and then realize how little the scientific truth matters because love is love and no amount of scientific insight is going to change that.

Happy to see that... :)

Tyler, sorry if you can't understand my point... :(

Love,
Nelson

YOU (Tyler) shown me desrespect. I keep saying and only because you don't want to see it, you don't want to believe in what I say eventhough it has arguments and proofs. Pretty childish..

Umm, no, he dosen't believe because you have no evidence. :rolleyes:

Q:
The first rule of 'Debating Nelson Club' is: You do not talk about the debating Nelson club!

In Tyler We Trust. :p

Xev,

LOVE IS A CHEMICAL REACTION!

Not ONLY. You can't explain Love only by chemical reactions...

Hmph. You obviously have not been reading the contributions of Tyler or Cris.

Cris is just the champion on coldness!!
Tyler is not cold at all (now I saw it by his last post...:))

Er, no. We understand perfectly, but you are wrong.

Continue to discuss that is childish...

Does this in any way diminish it?

Extremely...

Other than, perhaps injecting a bit of rationality into a rather irrational emotion, I cannot see how knowing this diminishes the strength of the emotion.

If you coincider only this rational part as you are doing, the irrational part is completly lost. And Perfect Love can't be comprehended rationaly, then, it's completly worthless try to discuss it unless you have a religious language or in the nearest science, pscychology.

Hope you understood now...

Love,
Nelson

sonofbabylon,

...scientific arrogance...

hehehehe...

...HAHAHAHAHA!!! :D:D:D

Love,
Nelson

Not ONLY. You can't explain Love only by chemical reactions...

Oh really? Why not?

Cris is just the champion on coldness!!

Cris is hot. :p

Extremely...

*Shrugs*

It didn't diminish it when I was in love (romantically) and it dosen't diminish the love I have for my friends or family.

Continuing...

I believe in science. I believe in God. I don't see a conflict. I believe in perfect love even though I can't explain it nor will ever fully understand it. To explain it through science is an exercise in futility.

Yup!... :)

He was a Master Scientist--every lesson He taught was from nature.

Yup... :)
And I'm not in a different track...
http://www.sciforums.com/t6468/s/thread.html



He was a Master Avatar in that He took no credit for Himself--He did nothing except everything He received from God and told us that we would do well if we did the same.

Yeah... that's what He wants... He wants us to do the same... :)

Love,
Nelson

Adam,

I'm an atheist, but I suspect there is some sort of spirit stuff going on. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Maybe we have spirits or something. Can't say yet, so I can't rule it out. Maybe it's just some energy stuff going on that we will some day be able to measure and such. No idea.

Glad to see you are open-minded!! :)

Love,
Nelson

Truthseeker. Redeem yourself or accept that I will forever see you as a lier and hypocrite.

Question 1: Where anatomically is love from then?
Question 2: What evidence do you have to support this?
Question 3: If something is not anatomical, how can you have evidence of it? (see Adam's post. At least he can admitt his belief in a 'spirit' or something else is purely based on his feelings and has no factual basing)
Question 4: Are you actually dumb enough to think that reasoning is impossible without words?
Question 5: Do you have any evidence to go against all the science we know about how body chemicals and brain activity work?
Question 6: 'If it's based on psychological theory, it's a scientific proof' - do you realize how dumb you sound?
Question 7: Do you have proof of 'essense'?

Seeing as all you'll say is 'I already proved it!', I decided to look into that. As I, unlike you, enjoy having evidence to support my claims.

So, let's take a walk through memory lane and see truthseekers "proof":

'The bible is in each of us. The truth is within, not without.'
- For starters, you'll get no where basing your claims on religion with Tyler. I don't believe in religion. For second, if the truth is within, that truth is personal to each individual and inside their brain, not their 'heart' which as I said, is nothing more than an organ to pump blood.

'no Tyler, you don't understand the concept....Love IS God!'
- Maybe we should stop right here and turn this into a religious debate. In which case I have this to say. I can respect someone's religious beliefs as long as they don't try and force their views on me. The minute someone says religious is absolute fact, I am forced by my own competitive nature to ask them what proof they have of this. There is no proof to support any one religion. No hard evidence. So, consequentially, there is no evidence that 'love is god'. If, like I said, your belief of an 'essense' is just another word for 'soul', get lost. You won't prove a thing here because you have no evidence of a soul.

'love from the mind is imperfect'
- Why, because it doesn't rely on another being? I'm an individual, and proud to be it. I know what the chemical causes of love are and I could care less, because I know that no matter what love comes from it's still love, and an amazing experience. You basically just told me that because I'm not christian my love isn't perfect.

Welcome to the board osama.

'your essense is you without your experiences'
- And I'm trying to tell you, that the chemical make up in your brain IS STILL WHAT DETERMINS YOUR IMMEDIATE TRAITS AT BIRTH. This is what we know. This is science. You are choosing to call fact fiction and your beliefs fact. Without evidence. That is the single worst way to debate on earth. Cris quite fully explained the chemical reactions inside our brain that create the emotion we call love.

'every essense must be simple, therefore it is from without your mind'
- Guh? I don't understand that conclusion one bit.

Every sandwhich must be made with ballony. Therefore kleenex was invented in 1959.

That's about the level of intelligence you're displaying here.

'psychologically, our personality lies deep outside our experiences.'
- First of all, your personality now is a result of past experiences. Second of all, your personality at birth is stil la result of your brain. This is science fact. I don't know how many times you need to hear this

'I have already explained everything using Jungian psychology! Therefore I am right!'
- For starters, anything based on theories is just that, another theory. Not fact. Second of all, you didn't use psychology to prove anything. I've been searching and searching and can't find it anywhere. Closest you've come is in saying that because our experiences affect our personality today there must have been a personality before those experiences. And as much as we say; 'Yes truthseeker you are correct, but that first personality is a result of your brain' - you say, 'no, I am right, you are wrong'.

'If it's based in psychology, it's a scientific fact'
- You're an idiot.

Then there's a page or so of you saying 'I already proved everything'.

So there ya go, a brief time line, with rebutals, of truthseekers 'proof'. Brilliant, no?

None of any of this will ever make sense. One one hand, if I want to believe there too be mystical qualities in the nature of love I have to accept to some degree notions of an unproven God, or an unseen Soul. On the other, is this terribly disconcerning scientific approach that treats conciousness like a puppet. A state produced and maintained by a mass network of neurological activity. Sometimes when reading into neuroscience I wonder if we really have any free-will at all, if the actions of serial killers and terrorists were inevitably probable from the date of birth... The thing that troubles me most, is that while there is clear evidence to support the latter veiw it really only answers the questions by smothering it with labels. Instead of the mind being somehow abstract from the physical world and able to interact with the body without the use of a brain it is actually 'what' the brain does. But this makes no sense, how can a grouping of chemical medly's, neurological interactions 'be' aware? Subjectivity is the most incredible thing and yet logic would suggest that it doesn't exist. It can't be directly measured afterall can it? I feel somewhat shortchanged by the fact that I am not REALLY in control of my own control. It leaves me hopless. While I question the facts for what they really mean I am still deeply bothered by they're implications. I try to shut off my emotions as much as possible because I don't believe in them. I don't believe in love, it's just a method of getting a sophisticated evolved species enthusiastic about procreation (or as it relates to kinship). It makes sense, thats the scary part.

None of any of this will ever make sense. On one hand, if I want to believe there too be mystical qualities in the nature of love I have to accept to some degree notions of an unproven God, or an unseen Soul. On the other, is this terribly disconcerting scientific approach that treats consciousness like a puppet. A state produced and maintained by a mass network of neurological activity. Sometimes when reading into neuroscience I wonder if we really have any free will at all, if the actions of serial killers and terrorists were inevitably probable from the date of birth... The thing that troubles me most is that while there is clear evidence to support the latter view it really only answers the questions by smothering it with labels. Instead of the mind being somehow abstract from the physical world and able to interact with the body without the use of a brain it is actually 'what' the brain does. But this makes no sense, how can a grouping of chemical medley’s, neurological interactions 'be' aware? Subjectivity is the most incredible thing and yet logic would suggest that it doesn't exist. It can't be directly measured after all can it? I feel somewhat shortchanged by the fact that I am not REALLY in control of my own control. It leaves me hopeless. While I question the facts for what they really mean I am still deeply bothered by they're implications. I try to shut off my emotions as much as possible because I don't believe in them. I don't believe in love, it's just a method of getting a sophisticated evolved species enthusiastic about procreation (or as it relates to kinship). It makes sense, that’s the scary part.

Truthseeker,

Your use of my statement about scientific arrogance was kind of a cruel way to get your point across. There was no implication there that scientific arrogance was in display here. I also included religious zealotry but I didn't imply that towards you either.

I see no problem with the fact that we are chemicals, hormones and such. We are. Without them we couldn't even find the door you're looking at, let alone communicate with the God that is part of our subjective reality.

During the 60's I took a drug called mescaline. During that experience I saw something that could be called racial memory and experienced the phenoma of jumbled up senses(hearing color, seeing music in the form of notes, tasting sound, etc.) Some people experience this every day and would feel lost without that extra perception. This could have changed my perception about reality, but I accepted it for what it was--stimulated chemicals in my brain producing otherworldly results. I am a better person for it today, but I would never suggest others do it because it is dangerous. If you are suggesting that our personality comes through the void via racial memory, that's a study for science which is being done, even if some of it falls under the label paranormal. I believe in the supernatural, but I believe it to be super-natural. Nature has a set of laws--both organic and inorganic. God has a set of laws. We do well to know the difference. As far as it is possible, be at peace with all people.

sonofbabylon,

Your use of my statement about scientific arrogance was kind of a cruel way to get your point across. There was no implication there that scientific arrogance was in display here. I also included religious zealotry but I didn't imply that towards you either.

You understood me wrong. I was talking generously. Sorry if it was ambiguious.

Love,
Nelson

Thank you for proving the level of disrespect you have shown me continuosly.

If the belief in a Christian God that you hold is true, and you end up in heaven, I will be happier knowing I ended up in hell than in a heaven that rewards you.

Fathoms: What's so wrong with that? The true beauty is in first learning what you stated, studying it, realizing it is true, and then forgetting it because it doesn't matter. Like I said to Cris about love; you can accept all the cold and emotionless truths about it and then forget them, because they don't matter when you're in love. Just like all those cold facts you stated shouldn't matter while you're alive. They should in no way hinder enjoyment of life.

Since when was the truth cold and emotionless?

Oh well, looks like the topic is dead. Hope to see you around other topics, Tyler.

Ignore the sudden onslaught of pseudoscience into the science part of the board....or debunk. Your choice, but please stick around.

It annoys me too.

Since when was the truth cold and emotionless?
As the way science describes... yes, it is...

Oh well, looks like the topic is dead. Hope to see you around other topics, Tyler.

I told about this site to one of my friends...
Perhaps she willl be here soon... :)
Then she will help me... :D

hahaha...

HAHAHAHA!!
*freakly*

:D:D:D

Love,
Nelson

Truthseeker you have just proven to me how weak an individual you are. By saying that you let the scientific explination of things make emotions cold, you have shown that you let things take you over.

Nelson; I try to take pride in myself after most debates I do whether I won or loss. In our debate, I take pride in having not started a long string of obsenities at you in your total lack of respect to me and Xev.

Truthseeker you have just proven to me how weak an individual you are. By saying that you let the scientific explination of things make emotions cold, you have shown that you let things take you over.

What!?!?!? :bugeye:
I don't let them make me cold! I control pretty much them. They make YOU be cold, as I'm seeing... I don't believe that Love comes from the mind for example. A cold and imperfect thing. Isn't this thread about Perfect Love? So how a Perfect Love can come from an imperfect thing such as a brain? Besides that, I'm shouting Love all over the forums. And then, you come here and call me cold!?!?!?! :bugeye:

Nahhh....!
Perfect Love is not chemical...
There IS something beyond, and I believe is a sort of Energy moving in another dimension.

Perfect Love is Spiritual.

Nelson; I try to take pride in myself after most debates I do whether I won or loss. In our debate, I take pride in having not started a long string of obsenities at you in your total lack of respect to me and Xev.

YOU have total disrespect to me because it is YOU that prefers not to listen what I have to say only because it's not what you are used to think.

And I take no pride on this debate as you didn't learn nothing from that. Perhaps... NOW you did...
But I rather not discuss anymore with you.

Good Luck,
Nelson

You're too dumb for words. It's really quite amazing.

Although, your logic follows the same as most religious people. You don't want to believe the facts so you make up something without any proof of it.

Every time you have made a comment I have had a rebutal. That is proper form.

You have either completely fucking ignored me or just said 'I already proved it'. That is disrespect and disgusting form.

How is the mind cold? It's only cold if you think it is. Everything is relative. I choose to see the mind as an amazing and intricate thing, rather brilliant in it's make up.

Let me explain this step by step to you, as you obviously can't link one and one together by yourself.

- There are FACTS which tell us how our brain works
- Like all scientific FACTS, they are rather unromantic
- YOU, not me, let the fact that these FACTS are unromantic make you think that if they are true, than LOVE is unromantic
- I, on the other hand, am able to look past the unromantic and cold FACTS of the brain and accept the BEAUTY of HUMAN love

Get the logic now?

'There IS something beyond it'
You say this because you want to believe it. Like for thousands of years people wanted to believe in their gods. Like people want to believe in an afterlife. People will believe whatever it takes to suit their desires. I do it too, though not in science/religion sense. I want to believe that the expectations people have for me are too high. I want to believe that my teachers and parents and friends have far too high expectations for me to reach. The fact is, for 3 years I have reached them and upped them with little effort. I still seem to believe