Some people on this forum asked why I mock patriotism. I mock it for the same reason I mock religious people. If a person insists on blind faith in country or god, or both, he can expect my mockery. If he can't handle mockery he clearly isn't faithful enough.

However, we might not all agree on this and maybe it would be proper to discuss this matter.

To start of the discussion I will give some points of critique:

1. Patriotism is emotional and learned.
2. Patriotism strives to impose morals on others.
3. Patriotism can be used to control people.

Well, that should be enough to get something started.

4.patriotism encourages people to be proud of actions and acheivements they had absolutely nothing to do with.

I don't think patriotism is learned. Love to one's homeland is natural. Nationalism is part of human nature, too. Yes, it can be used to control people; wherever there is an emotion, this vulnerability to control is also present. Imposition of morals goes with control. I dislike morals in general, no matter what they're tied to.

Patriotism makes an individual a part of a large group. With the western idolization of individualism in everything, the importance of being in a group may seem bizarre. However, we're not individuals living separately, we're always a part of a group. Patriotism is a good thing, it makes people think for the improvement of their country. When you take away patriotism, the individual is left with self-interest and develops greed; this is how you get leaders like Bush.

If love of one's homeland is natural then why isn't everybody a patriot. How did people love their country when there weren't any countries?

Am I a freak for never having loved my homecountry?

isn't this the same argument religious people use? I believe in God because it feels right. I believe in my country because it is natural. It feels right.

You do not have to be patriotic to feel part of a group. Au contraire, in the 'freedom in the US' thread the whole discussion is mainly about being part of society or being an individualist. And all individualist were patriots, and the guy (moi) clinging to the idea of 'society is us' dismisses patriotism.

Patriotism makes people complecent and dependent on their country. It eliminates criticism of their own nation because it conflicts with their 'love' of their country.

Countries which didn't even exist a few centuries ago.

(this is a post I'd posted in the abortion thread but which was
on this topic; just substitute patriotism for nationalism,
though, one could argue the differences between the two terms)



I've always viewed nationalism as a remnant and an expression
of tribalism...
Its the same emotion that people dedicated to a particular sports team
experience or what people that are part of an inclusionary group feel
about their own group vs. those outside of the group.
Acedemics, Political groups and even egalitarians also have this
though its expressed in ideological terms the net effects are the
same as it gives them an ingroup to belong to and an outgroup to
view in the context of otherness.



"At one time, nation-states were made up essentially of ethnies, and defended genetic interests—even if in not so many words. Nation states acted naturally in what they took to be the benefit of their citizens, defending national territory against invasion, armed or unarmed. Dr. Salter notes that “the nation state is a psychological substitute for the primordial band and tribe,” and that “the political rhetoric of national identity and mobilization is rich in kinship metaphors such as the founding fathers, the motherland, brothers-in-arms, and fraternity.” No other appeal can elicit the same kind of devotion or sacrifice.

Dr. Salter adds that by today’s standards nation-states were frankly xenophobic: “In the past ethnocentric culture has usually been adaptive. Indoctrination is a powerful strategy for encouraging ethnocentric thinking, one that allows leaders to mobilize the community for defense.” Mobilization can go too far, and lead to aggressive war that wastes lives even if it adds territory, but some level of nationalism is necessary for any people to maintain itself."


Some view nationalism such as Germany's to be noble and an
admirable and laudable trait. In England its against the law for
Englishman to fly the British flag, but other ethnies are allowed to
fly their home countries (not England) flag. I'd much more respect
a proud and haughty nationalism than a self-loathing apologetic
trend surfer.

1. Patriotism is emotional and learned.
2. Patriotism strives to impose morals on others.
3. Patriotism can be used to control people.

Let's view this from another perspective and situation. Does the list below sound any different to what you've stated and/or implied?

1. Love of ones family is emotional and learned.
2. Love of ones family strives to impose morals on others.
3. Love of ones family can be used to control people.

4. Love of ones family encourages people to be proud of actions and acheivements they had absolutely nothing to do with.

By the way, I think you have the idea of patriotism wrong. You might want to review your ideas and/or definitions more carefully.

Baron Max

No it's not.

You might want to review your ideas and/or definitions more carefully.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

isn't this the same argument religious people use? I believe in God because it feels right. I believe in my country because it is natural. It feels right.

No, not because "it feels right." Love to your homeland is like love to your mother: it is the place where you came from, it is a part of your personality (inevitably). And, if you remain living in your homeland, it is the country which observes your interests.

You do not have to be patriotic to feel part of a group. Au contraire, in the 'freedom in the US' thread the whole discussion is mainly about being part of society or being an individualist. And all individualist were patriots, and the guy (moi) clinging to the idea of 'society is us' dismisses patriotism.

I know none of this.

Patriotism makes people complecent and dependent on their country.

You are dependent on the country in which you reside. But this does not mean you ought to be complacent.

It eliminates criticism of their own nation because it conflicts with their 'love' of their country.

People love differently, and this relates to love of other people as well. No, you do not have to be blind to the faults of your mother but you love her unconditionally. Understand? Love towards your homeland is different from the love towards your mother because you are able to change things in your homeland.

Countries which didn't even exist a few centuries ago.

When countries didn't exist, people loved land on which they lived and their tribe.

No, you're not a freak. You're still normal.

To start of the discussion I will give some points of critique:

1. Patriotism is emotional and learned.
2. Patriotism strives to impose morals on others.
3. Patriotism can be used to control people.

Well, that should be enough to get something started.

what kind of patriotism we talking abou? there are other types besides political.
example
religious patriot would be a fanatic

Am I a freak for never having loved my homecountry?

no you are no freak spurious.
but i do believe you are searching for the "perfect" country, and there isn't one.
in fact i feel the perfect country would have to incorporate all the different systems into one. but that will never happen because of nationalism and or patriotism.
you know what i'm talking about
example:
"my country is the best thing ever created and every other country is barely more than worthless."

Dear Whitewolf,

I can understand your reasoning but do not mind me for disagreeing still with your reasoning. And I will try to explain to you why, and I will not go through your post line by line. Instead I will focus on one thought.

When countries didn't exist, people loved land on which they lived and their tribe.


Even if 'love' might not be the proper word I would definitely agree that people 'felt a strong bond' with their 'lands' and their 'tribe'. However I do not agree that this 'tribal feeling' (for lack of a better word) was later subsituted by patriotism. If I delve in my own emotional experience that could also be called a pathetic mess, I do find a strong bond with the neighbourhood I grew up in and on a larger scale, the city and the nature of the landscape surrounding this city. If I see a picture of such a landscape, or the street I grew up in, I would call that home and have a strong feeling about it. Not necessarily the feeling would be that of being proud, or love. But it is where I spend the first decades of my life.

When you show me a picture of a tulip field, Beatrix (our queen), canals, amsterdam I feel nothing.

Now I know that using my own experience is a slippery slope of intellectual disaster indeed. In this case I think it signifies that there is indeed a strong feeling of a 'homeland' in every person.

One of my points would be that this is rather limited to a small local area and local people, such as family, neighbours, townspeople.

I do think the article I referred to in wikipedia earlier is quite an interesting read because it raises quite a lot of issues with Patriotism and discusses its merits and disadvantages. There are quite a lot of negative aspects of patriotism. What is also clear is that patriotism can be used a political power tool. The state has an interest in spreading and maintaining patriotism.

That made me wonder if patriotism is merely the utilization of a 'natural' feeling for the sake of control of the masses. Of course, I am not telling anyone that you can NOT like your the country where you were born and raised. It's probably impossible to mention any country that doesn't have any wonderful qualities!

And isn't it so very very easy to promote patriotism? Isn't it the cheapest tool around to control or manipulate the masses? We are now back at one of the original questions. Is patriotism natural (i know you didn't define it as such, but bare with me)?

I say no. Patriotism is an exploitation of a natural feeling. I'm sure it feels good to be a patriot and that it can be a general feeling in a country. That doesn't make it a 'normal' experience.

With anything, Patriotism has it's goods and bads. The bad things of patriotism occur when it's doctrinized and excessive.
Simple patriotism and nationalism won't so easily result in fervent fanaticism, that's takes a while. If anything, patriotism and nationalism have the ability the unite a country.

If anything, patriotism and nationalism have the ability the unite a country.

What is good about that?

"I venture to suggest that partiotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." -- Adali Stevenson

"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him. For then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain

"I shall know but one country. The ends I aim at shall be my country’s, my God’s and Truth’s. I was born an American; I live an American; I shall die an American." -- Daniel Webster

"Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country ...with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been, never will be." -- John Wayne

I would classify this thread troll baiting.

I would classify this thread troll baiting.

So who gives a shit how you'd classify it? Or is your ego so over-blown that you just had to make your presense known by making that comment?

Baron Max

So who gives a shit how you'd classify it? Or is your ego so over-blown that you just had to make your presense known by making that comment?

Baron Max
Well, I'd assume people reading without a beef against me (Like you do, because I make you look like an idiot). This guy says he wants to discuss something, then just starts flaming people that respond. That's troll baiting.

Keep being an idiot though, it's fun to make you look stupid.

I don't think patriotism is wrong in and of itself. For me it's more a question of why. I am an American and a patriot. I have never been to a foreign country but have read quite a bit about quite a few of them and how their societies work. I have come to the conclusion thus far that in some other countries I would have been shot by the secret police or some other such nonsense before I was 21. I don't feel I would do well if I had to live in any other country (not even England, my 2nd choice) for various reasons. I am comfortable here, I feel my best opportunities are here, therefore I choose to stay here and love this place for all its faults and favors.

This, of course, differs from the "sunshine patriot" who plasters red white and blue ribbons all over the back of his car until he can't see behind him just to make sure everyone knows he's not a terrorist. I'm sure we've all seen this guy...:)

Dear Spurious,

I understand your point of view. Allow me to elaborate further.

Now I know that using my own experience is a slippery slope of intellectual disaster indeed. In this case I think it signifies that there is indeed a strong feeling of a 'homeland' in every person.

One of my points would be that this is rather limited to a small local area and local people, such as family, neighbours, townspeople.

Your experience is very much valuable. I agree, I wouldn't feel much when shown a picture of a city in my home country which I've never seen before. But that's not all that makes patriotism.

You were raised to identify not only with your neighbors, but with the entire nation. You celebrated the national holidays, watched parades, learned history. You watched the same cartoons as kids you've never seen, read the same newspapers. Most likely, it was never spelled out that Holland is the most important place in the world. But, through growing familiar with Holland and its culture, your bond with your neighborhood was extending over the country. These are all assumptions, of course, so please correct me wherever you see fit. But this is where the "naturalness" comes in: as one identifies with people, one grows to like them.

In the country where government members are elected, patriotism is crucial. When you vote, you are to think not only of your taxes and your industrial area (for example), but also about the poorer citizens and farmers' estates which you've never seen.

I liked the wikipedia article. However, I've noticed that a lot of people think being patriotic automatically means liking the current government. I think that's a mistake. A patriotic person doesn't have to love the government or the current popular ideology. Patriotism is what would push someone to do something about the dislike of government or ideas. Also, patriotism is not to be associated with ethnocentrism, racism, or anything of the sort; these are different things. Yes, you may think that immigration is bad for your country for some reason; indeed, some think immigration is bad for economy and those who occupy low-paying jobs. But this in no way implies that people from other countries are inferior. When it comes to international relations, the country in which you reside ought to be the most important one, because its government represents your interests.

Yes, it is easy to promote patriotism and turn it into fanaticism. It's easy to do that with any emotion or reasoned conviction. It's easy to make a fool out of anyone this way, not just the masses. But here comes the responsibility of each individual.

What is good about that?
So that a country doesn't crumble, and fall apart, into total disunity, rivalry, and anarchy.

Why would a country fall apart without patriotism? And is it wrong if a country falls apart for lack of a institutionalized feeling?

1. Patriotism is emotional and learned.
2. Patriotism strives to impose morals on others.
3. Patriotism can be used to control people.

Well, that should be enough to get something started.
So, if I say that all Sciforum members, but me, are socially inbred wankers, how does that make you and the rest of the local community feel about me because of my clinical, unemotional, imposition/control resisting attitude about wanking conformity engineers?

All group-think is group-think.

Anarchists who seek any kind of organization are Patriots, too.

So, if I say that all Sciforum members, but me, are socially inbred wankers, how does that make you and the rest of the local community feel about me because of my clinical, unemotional, imposition/control resisting attitude about wanking conformity engineers?you'd be right in your opinion, I have no opinion either way.
your entitled to yoursAll group-think is group-think.
Anarchists who seek any kind of organization are Patriots, too. yes, if people have simular ideas they become a group.
the human animal's need for alegence, strives him on.(this is why we have favourites sport's teams)
if only he could, keep to one big group.(perhaps one day)
I am a humanist, so I have an alegence to humanity, but it's not for the want of anarchy.
humanity split, becomes Patriotic anarchy.

...I mock it for the same reason I mock religious people. If a person insists on blind faith in country or god, or both, he can expect my mockery. If he can't handle mockery he clearly isn't faithful enough... The soldiers are supposed to be the most patriotic but they are also supposed not to question the orders given to them in terms of morality; so dude what U r saying is not an accepted norm.

Let's view this from another perspective and situation. Does the list below sound any different to what you've stated and/or implied?

1. Love of ones family is emotional and learned.
2. Love of ones family strives to impose morals on others.
3. Love of ones family can be used to control people.

4. Love of ones family encourages people to be proud of actions and acheivements they had absolutely nothing to do with.

By the way, I think you have the idea of patriotism wrong. You might want to review your ideas and/or definitions more carefully.

Baron Max

Let's view this from another perspective and situation. Does the list below sound any different to what you've stated and/or implied?

1. Love of tax money is emotional and learned.
2. Love of tax money strives to impose morals on others.
3. Love of tax money can be used to control people.
4. Love of tax money encourages people to be proud of actions and acheivements they had absolutely nothing to do with.

5. Love of tax money can intrigue wars that have no credibilities.

By the way, I think you have the wrong idea of family promoted wrongs. You might want to review your ideas and/or definitions more carefully.

- The Anomaly (equivalent of one in the Matrix movie).

I would classify this thread troll baiting.

That its ? Is that all U could Think before U clicked ? On Patriotism.

... If anything, patriotism and nationalism have the ability the unite a country. So why cant we unite the world in the name of patriotism. That will be good for every country; no wars, no more worries. no more war expenses, no more terrorism etc, etc.

I can see why people may not like patriotism. I don't think you'd guys like it if I started going on and on about how I just love my country. But there really isn't anything wrong with liking your country. I mean it's your homeland where your parents have grown, and so on. It's fine to like your country and be proud of it.

There is a difference between liking and being proud of a country.

Your attitude towards your homecountry changes once you start living in different countries. It gives a shift in perspective. You notice then that patriotism is not normal. You can like living anywhere without being a patriot about it. Liking it somewhere is not linked to patriotism. Even people who don't like it somewhere can be patriots.

Look at the racists on this forum. They bitch about immigrants and blacks in 'their' country. Still they would call themselves patriots. They hate parts of their country. Look at the dirt poor in a country. Treated like trash they can still display patriotism.

Patriotism is learned.

Patriotism is learned.
patriotism might be a form of greed or of vanity

Could you explain the 'greed' part? I can see the vanity but it would be interesting to know what you mean by greed?

wanting the country to have it all by the balls, you know, greedy

Could you explain the 'greed' part? I can see the vanity but it would be interesting to know what you mean by greed? Look at America, Its greed has become the cause of its collapse.

Look at America, Its greed has become the cause of its collapse.
Look at Sciforums.

It's vanity is the cause of it's inbreeding.

How does greed and vanity link to Patriotism? I can see vanity in it as, being proud of a country or having nationalism is about what the country has done. You feel proud, and pride taken to the extreme "vanity." But "greed"? How can one feel patriotic if the leader is greedy?

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

Patriotism in essence is perfectly natural.
Solitary animals care about their own well being, social animals care about the well being of their social unit, and once social units of humans united to form countries it was the natural progression for them to support their country as it was an extended tribe. An extension of themselves.
Ofcourse, it's all related to the natural instinct to favours ones own genes.

The instinct is just misplaced with most of todays countries as they're multicultural, with families which aren't closely related. Countries (with a few exceptions) are no longer "big families", so the whole point of the instinct is lost.
Patriotism for "america" is patriotism for an arbitrary abstract concept as opposed to your genetic strain and it's natural habitat.

Which is why I feel "patriotic" for real english people and the english countryside as opposed to "england" or "australia".

How does greed and vanity link to Patriotism? I can see vanity in it as, being proud of a country or having nationalism is about what the country has done. You feel proud, and pride taken to the extreme "vanity." But "greed"? How can one feel patriotic if the leader is greedy? I hope U have heard the term history repeats itself and a person called Adolf Hitler.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain Its also not letting U unite the world.

I don't think patriotism is fundamentally different from self-identifying with any particular group, e.g. forums and religions. While I don't think self-identifying is necessarily bad, it does create a mental boundary between 'us' and 'them' and a feeling of 'us good' that can blur into 'them not good'...

So? That can help hype up that good ol' competitive spirit. Think of it this way: in your high school football game, if the players and fans didn't think along the lines of "us" and "them", then thrashing your rival team would be sorta a hollow vict'ry.

So why cant we unite the world in the name of patriotism. That will be good for every country; no wars, no more worries. no more war expenses, no more terrorism etc, etc.
Because there has not been a threat to unite all of mankind. We have no real reason for human patiotism. We're gettin' closer on building that road, though. If only the UN were more effective...

So? That can help hype up that good ol' competitive spirit. Think of it this way: in your high school football game, if the players and fans didn't think along the lines of "us" and "them", then thrashing your rival team would be sorta a hollow vict'ry.

Sure, but if someone actually starts hating the opposing team to the point that they'll vandalise the flyback's car ... then it's going too far :D

If only the UN were more effective...
Would you exchange 1000 squabbling powers for one great tyrant?
In rare instances such as one on this scale, disunity can be good... or at least the lesser of two evils.

Our Western concept of nationalism is a product of 19th century industrialism.

Love to one's homeland is natural. Nationalism is part of human nature, too.

If nationalism was a part of human nature, why was it absent from human nature for millenia? Nationalism is an extenion of tribalism. It's taught. We're told that those that live within the imaginary boundaries of our country, who share the same language and have the same leaders, are our family. Nationalism is misplaced familial cohesion. We're misled, not by emotion, but out emotion is misled through reason.

"These people share these characteristics in common with you, therefore you are like these people, therefore when they are hurt you are hurt. Protect them as you would protect yourself."

I would like to be patriotic, i really would like to feel 100% proud of my country, i want to be able to say my countrys action represnt my ideology and beliefs, however i cannot.

I would like to be patriotic but it is impossible for me to actually feel it because of how my 'homeland' has acted.

Unfortunatly true patriotism,in this day and age, does not exist.

:m:

true (http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/history_wing/assets/room2/be023728.jpg) patriotism (http://hsgm.free.fr/recent/einsatzgruppen5.jpg)

Maybe someday it'll return. Got my fingers crossed.

...We have no real reason for human patiotism.... Not even ending terrorism or is it not a big threat ?

....
Because there has not been a threat to unite all of mankind. .... We're gettin' closer on building that road, though. If only the UN were more effective... So Patriotism is actually National greed, no wonder American war attacks are justified.

true (http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/history_wing/assets/room2/be023728.jpg) patriotism (http://hsgm.free.fr/recent/einsatzgruppen5.jpg)

Maybe someday it'll return. Got my fingers crossed.
That's not patriotism. That's racism. Different concepts, usually.

Not even ending terrorism or is it not a big threat ?
Not as big as you might think.

That's not patriotism. That's racism. Different concepts, usually.

Not at all. Patriotism and racism can go hand in hand, and often do. Imagine all the civilians that butchered other civilians in the Holocaust. For love of country. What a fervor for the Fuhrer. For the Reich.

So? That can help hype up that good ol' competitive spirit. Think of it this way: in your high school football game, if the players and fans didn't think along the lines of "us" and "them", then thrashing your rival team would be sorta a hollow vict'ry.


Maybe the reality is that it is a hollow victory.

John SmithI would like to be patriotic, i really would like to feel 100% proud of my country, i want to be able to say my countrys action represnt my ideology and beliefs, however i cannot.

I would like to be patriotic but it is impossible for me to actually feel it because of how my 'homeland' has acted.

Unfortunatly true patriotism,in this day and age, does not exist.



You may not be proud of what your homeland is doing, but why does that stop you from being patriotic? I'm not proud of a lot of what my country is doing right now, but that doesn't make me less of a patriot. I fix my patriotism to the principles on which my country was founded, not to the whims of elected officials. When I feel something is going against those ideals, I do what I can to help correct it, whether by voting against an offending candidate or issue or, in one case, telling the governor of the state of Arizona to "shut the hell up" at a public gathering.

One could even argue the case of Benedict Arnold as one of patriotism in the extreme. According to his "Open Letter to the Inhabitants of North America", he saw the United States as trading the British crown for the French crown. We owed France a lot of money and our armed forces were being so badly depleted that France could have waltzed on in and mopped us up, and she had plenty of reason (mostly just to spite England). Arnold saw the chance of reconciliation with the Mother Country (after all, we were English) as a very real possibility while the French were more "foreign".* Rather than see America fall under a foreign crown, he felt America's best bet was to return to the King and try for independence later under less violent conditions.

Okay, so it didn't happen like he thought it was going to. The fact is, according to his letter, he acted in what he felt were the best interests of his country even though he was opposed to the current administration's course of action. He threw it all away to try to keep America from what he perceived as a worse situation. Sounds patriotic to me.

*I read that the state of Louisiana has a body of laws that don't quite jive with the other 49 states. While still constitutional, they are "quirky". Unfortunately, the author didn't give any examples, but did give an explanation that Louisiana's law is based off of French common law while the other 49 states' laws are based off of English common law. How different might we be if Arnold's fear had come true?

Not at all. Patriotism and racism can go hand in hand, and often do. Imagine all the civilians that butchered other civilians in the Holocaust. For love of country. What a fervor for the Fuhrer. For the Reich.
Oh, yeah, patriotism and racism merge in one incident, and suddenly ALL patriotic feeling is racist... :rolleyes:

he said: racism and patriotism can go hand in hand and often do.

Yeah, and I'm saying it doesn't.

Obviously it has. So why shouldn't it do.

I think spurious is referring to incidents where a particular race or nationality suddenly finds itself persecuted socially, such as right after 9-11 when people of Middle Eastern descent were justifiably afraid to leave their homes because of misdirected patriotism. "Let's go kill some helpless old man from India. That'll make us heroes and get us laid!" Even at my husband's place of work they were wondering if they were going to be sent home as a security measure and if they would get escorted by security out to their cars (let alone if they would survive the trip home).

A less volatile form of misdirected patriotism showing up in this form was that ridiculous trend of replacing anything with "french" in it with "freedom". I had ordered some french fries at a Carl's Jr. and the girl asked "Don't you mean Freedom Fries?" I answered, "No, I mean French Fries. We haven't all lost our minds yet." During WW1 Dachshunds were called "Liberty Pups", sauerkraut was called "Liberty Cabbage", and this sort of nonsense wasn't limited the US. England, Germany, pretty much every nation has done it and continues to do it.

NAZI's were patriots after all.

During WW1 Dachshunds were called "Liberty Pups"

And worse than that. The Animals Came in One By One is an autobiographical book by animal-vet Buster Lloyd-Jones set in London during WWII. In one chapter he describes how British propoganda portrayed "the Huns" as scheming, ratty sausage-dogs and the British as noble bulldogs. As a result he was approached by Daschund owners to have their pets put to sleep as they no longer wanted them.

Is that patriotism?

That's more of that misdirected patriotism I was talking about. These people want to do something to publicly display whose side they're on, so they set out to destroy the most convenient symbol of the "other side" they can get, rather than keep their heads about them and just put a "hooray for our side" sign in the front room window.

Patriotism is a part of our being, and gives us fulfillment when its not taken too seriously. It is when patriotism is taken too seriously problems start, and people start making threads like this one. To be patriotic is to acknowledge once presence in the community, to associate oneself with people around you. If person physically or mentally dissociates himself from community, need for patriotism and its factor disappear by themselves. But if a person lives in the healthy environment ( I mean around people he respects and has no dislikes to) within a community he will almost always have some kind of patriotism. As I repeat myself patriotism is only positive and beneficial when its not take too seriously and just a minor factor in daily affairs.

Patriotism is used as a tool for the easily brainwashed to do other's biddings.

Simple as that.

- N

NAZI's were patriots after all.
No, that was ultranationalism. Patriotism is much milder. Hell, even simple nationalism is milder than ultranationalism.

Is it? I view americans as an example of ultra nationalism and patriotism.

Nah, you're only seeing things from the smaller picture of the here and now, which is admittedly where we have to live. Look at the larger picture throughout history and the rest if the world. It's pretty mild here, with isolated cases of over-reaction.

Is it? I want to leave the US mainly because i don't want my children raised in a system aimed at indoctrinating children to be good americans (patriots). that is the main reason. So is the problem one to be minimalized?

Some of the people in American history who we hold today as being pinnacles of patriotism actually held what would be considered very unpatriotic beliefs. Thomas Jefferson believed that no man who wanted to be president should be allowed to have the job, and also believed that we needed an armed revolution every few years just to keep the government honest. Andrew Jackson thought Washington was a wussy. Ethan Allen hated everybody at the capitol and started making overtures to the British when Congress started jerking him around about Vermont's statehood. Washington thought Hancock was a spineless jerk when it came to directing Congress. Commodore Stephen Decatur, General William Eaton, and General Andrew Jackson came within a hair's breadth of taking Aaron Burr up on his offer to head up an armed resistance and secede the then-western portion of the United States from the rest of the country. (Decatur himself was accused of being too chummy with the British during the War of 1812, although it came to nothing.)

Yet through their own dissatisfactions and disillusionments with the way things were turning out, they stayed the course anyway. Commodore Decatur once said "Our country, right or wrong..." The underlying tone to the whole speech would have finished this quote with "...when right to keep her right, when wrong to make her right."

What would you be willing to do if you genuinely believed your homeland was seriously in the wrong about something major?

Some people on this forum asked why I mock patriotism. I mock it for the same reason I mock religious people. If a person insists on blind faith in country or god, or both, he can expect my mockery.

I agree. Countries are "on paper" entities. Nations are not.

:m:

..... U r another Avatar of a irritant moderator.


MmOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo.

Anomalous What?

I'm not sure I get you. Are you saying you think I keep two identities on this board? No, I used to be the moderator of the Religion forum before things got reorganized, but my work schedule changed and I was unable to keep up with it so I handed it off and am no longer a moderator. I only have the one identity here.

And I picked the cow because cows seem to be the majority of life forms (aside from flies) out here. Moo. :)

spurious What keeps you here, and where would you go? My second choice would be England because I don't speak much of any other language.

Anomalous What?

I'm not sure I get you. Are you saying you think I keep two identities on this board? No, I used to be the moderator of the Religion forum before things got reorganized, but my work schedule changed and I was unable to keep up with it so I handed it off and am no longer a moderator. I only have the one identity here.

And I picked the cow because cows seem to be the majority of life forms (aside from flies) out here. Moo. :)
I see U are here from 1999, but there will be no here in the future
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=969627#post969627

Some people on this forum asked why I mock patriotism. I mock it for the same reason I mock religious people.

It's not very nice to mock people, is it? Or did your mommy teach you that it was okay to mock people who weren't just like you or didn't believe exactly as you believe? Are you teaching your children to mock others in the same way?

However, we might not all agree on this ...

Oh, surely you jest!? As I see it, we elitist members of this forum agree on everything ....or am I just reading the wrong posts or something? :)

I am sorta' curious, however ...if you find someone who is patriotic, why should that bother you or anyone else? I don't get it.

Baron Max

Patriotism is an outcrop of human tribalism.

The only difference being that with tribalism a sense of intimacy exists between its members where a group is small enough to nurture direct relationships whereas with nationalism this same sense is diluted into an abstraction with which we create or are indoctrinated into a relationship based on common ideals and interests but lacking in intimacy and directness.

So what, Satyr? If someone wants to be patriotic, why should you or anyone care? and if you don't want them to be patriotic, does that mean that you think everyone should feel and think exactly as you do?

Baron Max

So what, Satyr? If someone wants to be patriotic, why should you or anyone care? and if you don't want them to be patriotic, does that mean that you think everyone should feel and think exactly as you do?

Baron MaxWhere did I mention that I cared?

As far as I’m concerned patriotism, as it exists in our modern world, facilitates population control.
How else would healthy young men and women go kill and die for oil and on behalf of someone else’s interests, all under the illusion that they were fighting for their nation and their principles and for what is “right” and “just’ when they couldn’t define either concept if asked?

Enlightened self interest?

To start of the discussion I will give some points of critique:

1. Patriotism is emotional and learned.
2. Patriotism strives to impose morals on others.
3. Patriotism can be used to control people.

Patriotism is normal and natural and necesary if a nation is to survive. It is only when one is taught to NOT be patriotic because to do so is "jingoistic" or insensitive to multicultural values that patriotism declines.

Patriotism is necesary to bind a nation together and to give its people the confidence to do the things that must be done. When a nation loses its patriotism, its confidence, we get crap like these Muslum idiots rioting and burning and killing over cartoons while no one does shit about it. Plays about islam will no longer be made in Europe because playrights are afraid of being killed. See how many cartoons are made from now on.

Perhaps if you European weenies taught the importance of national pride, of patriotism, such things would not happen. What do we get instead? An unending litany of complaints of how evil the West is and how it is responsible for all the worlds ills from global warming to slavery. Assimilation can not occur in a setting where patriotism doesn't exist. Why assimilate? This place is nothing special.

People need something to believe in, something to belong to. Since the Left has convinced many people that love of country is wrong, Muslum immigrants continue to follow their old ways. They continue to love islam more than their host country.

Now you see what that leads to. If we're going to live together and accept immigrants, it's not too much to ask that we and any newcomers pledge allegiance to our nation. That they love our nation. But how can we ask this if we do not love it ourselves?

3. Patriotism can be used to control people.
So can food, but that doesn't make food wrong, now does it?

So can food, but that doesn't make food wrong, now does it?
Food has been used by UN worker to get sex from women and children dieing of hunger.

So you're saying (implying actually) that we should stop eating food because a few UN workers used it to bribe a few persons into having coitus?
...
Nothing further.

Anomalous,

who the hell are you??

So you're saying (implying actually) that we should stop eating food because a few UN workers used it to bribe a few persons into having coitus?
...
Nothing further. Nope, I was just nullifing your example.

Anomalous,

who the hell are you?? Its always a good iea to check members profile, U r still a rookie.

So you're saying (implying actually) that we should stop eating food because a few UN workers used it to bribe a few persons into having coitus?
...
Nothing further.

You want to be a sheep because you always have been.

Patriotism is normal and natural and necesary if a nation is to survive. It is only when one is taught to NOT be patriotic because to do so is "jingoistic" or insensitive to multicultural values that patriotism declines.

Patriotism is a form of blind allegiance to some abstract ideal. I prefer allegiance to my people as an organic entity (nationalism), and that definitely is not compatible with multiculturalism!

:m:

You want to be a sheep because you always have been.
Sheep to what? I had to instill my patriotism to the ancient Austrian Empire by myself. No one forced me to it. I simply felt a connection to my forefather's homeland, and went with that.

Didn't anyone tell you the Austrian empire doesn't exist anymore. Which part of the empire was actually your forefather's homeland? Why aren't you patriotic about that? Is it because you feel a need to belong to something greater. Have you been taught that it is good to belong something greater. In what way do you think it is normal to feel patriotic about something non-existent?

Kingdom of Bohemia, specifically. However, at the time he came over to the US, it was part of a great whole, the Austrian (or rather, austro-hungarian) Empire.
No one taught me about that. What part of that do you not underfuckingstand? I looked it up myself, and felt a personal connection to the ancient land where my greatgrandpa originated.

Are you confusing nostalgia with patrotism?

Nostalgia -
A bittersweet longing for things, persons, or situations of the past.

android Patriotism isn't necessarily a blind allegiance. I think that's more properly termed fanatacism. I have my reasons for my allegiance to the United States, and they certainly don't involve turning off my mind.

I gotta back up Hapsburg, here. My ancestors are considered extinct (Chaco-Anasazi on my father's side). At one time, they had an empire of their own that covered the southwestern United States and a not-inconsiderable portion of Mexico. Among our slaves were the people who would become the Hopi, the Navajo, and the Apache. I have always felt a great degree of pride when I would see their ancient buildings still standing, with only time being able to do what centuries of warfare and slave uprisings could not.

You can't be nostalgic for something you were never there for.