Apparently it seems that a critical piece of information was left out of Americas Bullshit campaign to promote democracy in the Middle East. It was never mentioned that if Arabs elected the wrong people that America did not like , they would face an externally imposed economic disaster and starvation .
Gaza rations food as Israel cuts supplies : Israel denies border action revenge for Hamas victory (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1736439,00.html)
Widespread bread rationing has been introduced in the Gaza Strip because Israel has cut off deliveries of flour and other foodstuffs to the Palestinian territory for most of the past two months.
Israel will subject the Palestinians to an indefinite period of increasing impoverishment, hunger, chronic malnutrition, escalating unemployment, financial isolation, and social and political chaos .That is Israels response to what foreign observers agree was the fairest, most transparent election ever conducted in the Arab Middle East . The Zionists havent only just cut funds they are starving the Palestinians into submission also , the effects of which is something which is being kept very quiet by the Westerm media .
European Union mission visits Gaza Strip; says food crisis is 'serious' due to Israeli closures (http://www.imemc.org/content/view/17725/1/)
And Israel has once again closed the vital Karni crossing into Gaza, in another violation of its agreement last November with the US and the Palestinians .
Quartet envoy warns of chaos if PA not helped (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3228344,00.html)
“I do not believe you can have a million starving Palestinians and have peace,” Wolfensohn said.
And Isarel has no desire of peace as peace will only destroy Israel .

And what do those over fed and over financed buch of welfare parasites who live in Israel with a 1st world luxurious lifestyle at our expence in the West think of this ?
As the Hamas team laughs (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=684258)
Everyone agreed on the need to impose an economic siege on the Palestinian Authority, and Weissglas, as usual, provided the punch line: "It's like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die," the advisor joked, and the participants reportedly rolled with laughter.
I imagine the same chorus and chuckles were heard at the Nazi Wannasee conference when they decided on straving the Warsaw ghetto .

UPDATE : 12 minutes ago
UN cites humanitarian crisis in W.Bank and Gaza (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498879673&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
Palestinians face a grave humanitarian crisis if the substantial foreign funding to the Palestinian Authority remains frozen, the United Nations warned in a report released Wednesday.

The United Nations warned that poverty in the Palestinian areas could reach as high as 75 percent without Western aid and the monthly transfer of tax revenue that Israel collects on behalf of the Palestinian government.

David Shearer, head of the local UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, said the financial shortfall would hit the poor hardest and could spark further violence with armed Palestinian security officials taking the law into their own hands if their salaries were not paid.
But on a brighter note the palestinian people have :
Security forces in Gaza pledge allegiance to Hamas-led government (http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=1277)
Gaza- Ma’an- About 300 Palestinian policemen have headed to Ismael Haniyeh’s office in Gaza City in order to pledge allegiance to him.
The Palestinian people will see this latest round of Zionist barbarity out .

As the Hamas team laughs
Everyone agreed on the need to impose an economic siege on the Palestinian Authority, and Weissglas, as usual, provided the punch line: "It's like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die," the advisor joked, and the participants reportedly rolled with laughter.
”

I imagine the same chorus and chuckles were heard at the Nazi Wannasee conference when they decided on straving the Warsaw ghetto .

Yeah, serious. If what the above said is true, I wouldn't mind making soap and lampshades out of em.

- N

Yeah, serious. If what the above said is true, I wouldn't mind making soap and lampshades out of em.

- N
Oh yeah he said it alright the link I gave comes from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz . Here is another Israeli haaretz article from March where this animal lays out the real reason for this barbarity :
Epitaph for a road map (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=697537)
Dov Weissglas explained: "When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem."
There never was any intention of giving any peace to the Palestinians , this HAMAS thing is nothing more than an excuse to Fuck them over again .

Here's a little primer in some of the intricacies of democracy for you, Foley: Democracy is about far more than free elections.

If the elected government is actively anti-democratic (by, say, supporting terrorism, or dismantling the democratic structure), this automatically invalidates their mandate as a democratic government. This is why we can say that why Hitler was democratically elected, his government of Germany wasn't democratic. Democracy has to have meta-democratic rules to protect the democratic system itself, which is necessarily imperfect. This includes overruling the majority rule when the proposed laws harm the system.

Secondly, of course there are certain people we would rather see governing the PA than others. Hamas falls squarely under the "shouldn't govern" category. If the palestinians choose terrorists as leaders, a very natural consequence is that we break off relations and aid, because Hamas is inherintly anti-democratic.

Y'see?

funkstar:
Here's a little primer in some of the intricacies of democracy for you, Foley: Democracy is about far more than free elections.
If the elected government is actively anti-democratic (by, say, supporting terrorism, or dismantling the democratic structure),

Oh, and where did you pull that definition from? I trust you have a source to support your statement, or are you just making this shit up as you go along. Also...

1. You are aware that numerous democratic governments have supported terrorism in the past, including the U.S. Are you going to remain consistent, and admit that many past governments of the U.S were not democratic?

2. How is Hamas 'dismantling the democratic structure'? They were elected by an overwhelming majority of Palestinians, and they are living up to their terms of office.


This is why we can say that why Hitler was democratically elected, his government of Germany wasn't democratic.

We can say this because Hitler abolished any opposing political parties, and made himself a dictator. Hamas has done nothing of the sort.

However, it's nice that you note that the majority did elect Hitler.


Democracy has to have meta-democratic rules to protect the democratic system itself, which is necessarily imperfect. This includes overruling the majority rule when the proposed laws harm the system.

So you protect democracy by violating democratic principles? You ignore the will of the people because you disagree with the ruling governments decisions? How the hell does that protect democracy?


Secondly, of course there are certain people we would rather see governing the PA than others.

Ahh, but what you would 'rather' is worth absolutely jack shit. You're welcome to an opinion, however the fact remains that the decision of who governs the Palestinian people rests with the Palestinian people. That's democracy. It's domestic policy, and foreign countries don't have the right to interfere in such domestic processes.


Hamas falls squarely under the "shouldn't govern" category.

Sadly, that is your opinion, and nothing more. The majority of the Palestinian people disagreed with you, and in this instance, only their opinion matters.


If the palestinians choose terrorists as leaders,

You are aware that Hamas consists of more than just the military wing, right?


a very natural consequence is that we break off relations and aid, because Hamas is inherintly anti-democratic.

Oh please, at least be honest about your agenda. You don't like Hamas' foreign policy, so you don't want to contribute aid. Fair enough. But don't go bitching that Hamas is 'inherently anti-democratic', because its not.

Mountianhair, so did the Nazi party, did that make us wrong for removeing them?
And did they belong in the shouldn't rule category?

Buffalo Roam:

Mountianhair, so did the Nazi party, did that make us wrong for removeing them?

When a particular government engages in hostile foreign policy towards your country, then you are justified in 'removing' them.


And did they belong in the shouldn't rule category?

The Nazis weren't such a bad political party until they started invading other countries. They wouldn't have been elected into power in the first place if they didn't have something going for them. But power corrupts, as they say.

But yes, the Nazi party eventually fell into the 'shouldn't rule' category. This had nothing to do with it being non-democratic, and everything to do with its foreign policy.

Mountian, it was the Japanese that commited the agression against us, and then we went after the German Goverment, first, and then the Japaniese

Actually we declared war on Japan first and then Germany declared war on us so we then wnet after both sides. The japanese just had the foresight to severely wound our pacific feet so it took longer.

As for the HAMAS thing, the people knew if they elected this government that other countries would end relations and foreign aid. We wouldn't stop them of course, becuase people should choose. But hey they knew that electing HAMAS was putting a gun to their own head, so I say let them suffer. It's just like every part of life, make a stupid choice and suffer.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, a sneak attack is a declaration of war, I don't know of a better way to let someone now that your at war with them than sink their Fleet!

Here's a little primer in some of the intricacies of democracy for you, Foley: Democracy is about far more than free elections.
For Christ sake free elections are a corner stone of democracy .
If the elected government is actively anti-democratic (by, say, supporting terrorism,
HAMAS is a resistance organization it has political and military wings , the Palestinians as an oppressed people have everyright to self defence . The government of Israel actively pursues a policy of containment against the Palestinian population with tactics the Israeli government validates such as assassinations , collective punishments , economic denial
or dismantling the democratic structure),
HAMAS has not interfered nor dismantled any democratic structure .
this automatically invalidates their mandate as a democratic government.
And could you provide me with examples of HAMAS infractions during theior term in office which have invalidated their right to rule ?
This is why we can say that why Hitler was democratically elected, his government of Germany wasn't democratic.
How was the Nazi government not democratic ? It was President Hindenburg a non Nazi , from the German Christian Democrats who made the Nazis dictators in 1934 after the Reichstag fire . From 1933 to 1934 the Nazis performed as any elected government would of they followed the law .
Democracy has to have meta-democratic rules to protect the democratic system itself, which is necessarily imperfect. This includes overruling the majority rule when the proposed laws harm the system.
Yes but HAMAS has done nothing other than win a 70% landslide election that is the will of the people .
Secondly, of course there are certain people we would rather see governing the PA than others.
Precisely you have just said it , you don’t like how the elections worked out and you are not happy with the victors
Hamas falls squarely under the "shouldn't govern" category. If the palestinians choose terrorists as leaders, a very natural consequence is that we break off relations and aid, because Hamas is inherintly anti-democratic.
Menachim Begin was a terrorist responsible for the mass murder of 95 British women and children of British servicemen in the King David hotel atrocity . Sharon is a war criminal with a current international arrest warrant out against him . Yet it is this same Israeli government which is attempting to subvert democracy in Palestine by intimidation by starvation .
Y'see?
Yeah , I see , you’re a racist .

There's a difference between democracy and liberalism. Illiberal democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Illiberal_democracy):

"An illiberal democracy is a political system where democratic elections exist, and the government is elected by a democratic majority, but is not restrained from encroaching on the liberty of individuals, or minorities."

Yeah , I see , you’re a racist .
Bite me, sunshine.

There's a difference between democracy and liberalism. Illiberal democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Illiberal_democracy):

"An illiberal democracy is a political system where democratic elections exist, and the government is elected by a democratic majority, but is not restrained from encroaching on the liberty of individuals, or minorities."
I've heard this idea described as "unstable democracy" since they would decay out of it...

There's a difference between democracy and liberalism. Illiberal democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Illiberal_democracy):

"An illiberal democracy is a political system where democratic elections exist, and the government is elected by a democratic majority, but is not restrained from encroaching on the liberty of individuals, or minorities."
Show me what policies HAMAS has enacted since being elected that has encroached on the liberties of the Palestinian population or minorities . None is the answer , so your assertion here is non applicable , your illiberal democracy is only applicable to Israel .

Actually it is applicable to Iran and was applicable to Iraq before the invasion. It is not applicable to Israel as the Palenstinian have refused to be a part of that government and instead chose to have their own.

Bite me, sunshine.
And once again the coward backs outof having to reinforce his argument , I will take your reply as an admission of defeat .
Actually it is applicable to Iran and was applicable to Iraq before the invasion.
No its not applicable seeing neither Iraq nor Iran hold popular elections .
It is not applicable to Israel as the Palenstinian have refused to be a part of that government and instead chose to have their own.
Yes it is applicable as Israel does hold popular elections but oppresss the Palestinians . And Israel destroys the rights of its Arab citizens by having laws which can strip them of their birthright namel their citizenship and transport them to a second country.

And once again the coward backs outof having to reinforce his argument , I will take your reply as an admission of defeat .

Good for you, sunshine.

That will save you having to deal with the real world.

Zephyr:

There's a difference between democracy and liberalism. Illiberal democracy:

"An illiberal democracy is a political system where democratic elections exist, and the government is elected by a democratic majority, but is not restrained from encroaching on the liberty of individuals, or minorities."

Wow Zephyr, what you've described sounds uncannily similiar to the current Israeli government. I mean, if you're a particular minority in Israel, you have no land rights, no property rights, and you could just be abducted in the middle of the night by the IDF.

And Hamas, send it's children to blow up innocent Israeli children, in the middle of the day, so then the Israeli raid, and Hamas launches Qusam rocket, and the Israeli shell the Gaza, if you go back to 1948, it was the Arab World that launch a war that they thought would be a milk run, and the problem would be solved with the extermination of all jews in the Palistine, and as I have observed, when the bombs and rockets stop the F-16s and Gunships and Artillery stop. And it still is Illegle by international law to deleberatly target civilans, and it seem that is exactly who Hamas targets! and don't give me that the Iserali do this to because Hamas brags about how proud they are about the innocent they get killed by launching their rocket from civilan areas, and then uses this loss of life to justify the next attack, disgusting!

Wow Zephyr, what you've described sounds uncannily similiar to the current Israeli government.
Similar to a lot of governments, to varying degrees. There aren't that many truly liberal democracies out there (I'd guess most of them are in Europe...) Of course any discriminatory laws Israel uses against its citizens are wrong.

Not that the surrounding countries have a better track record, but they're generally not held to the same standard, as most of them aren't democracies in the first place.