Will there be a Palestine State? When? Hell freezes over?...


Rebuffing Sharon, Likud Party Repudiates Palestinian State
By STEVEN ERLANGER
Israel's Likud Party voted Sunday in favor of a resolution never to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, defying its leader, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

ref: NYTIMES

I'm gonna jump on this one first.

Personally, I entirely think of that as wrong. I'll agree only so much as to say that terrorism must be stopped and a militaristic approach is better than none at all. Will the state of Israel act on this (permanently)? I highly doubt it. But what I can say is that they probably wont be re-elected. Most Israeli's want peace, and to just get this issue wholly out of their hair.

In terms of when they'll get a state, I dont know, but terrorism has to stop, or be proven that it can be, before any progress is made. Hey, I personally think this could be the start of WW3, and I've being saying that for months, but everyone thinks I'm paranoid. Think about all the references to the beggining of the next war, biblical and civilizations (maya etc. ) and all that crap alike. Anyways, I gots to finish up my homework.

No that wont start WW3 because Bush will start it first

I think the Knesset's vote is madness, but hardly surprising given the heated political atmosphere. It spells more violence ahead.

I think Israeli's do want peace, but too many want to hang on to the settlements in the occupied terrirtories as well - this is the main impediment. The rising violence has done little to further the Palestinian cause in the immediate term - I think Israelis are increasingly willing to escalate the military aspect. But where will this path lead?

Ironically it's Netenyahu who is the current people's choice - if anything a man more extreme than Sharon. He has advocated (I beleieve) the forcible expulsion of Palestinians from the occupied territories. And that is the only place I can see Israeli policy headed. Once it is realised that military attacks will not end the resistence, the only solution is one more extreme.

But WW3? No. Israel's too strong to be defeated by its neighbours, the US would prefer not to intervene and, besides, Israel's neighbours will not fight a conventional war. The worst that would happen is a nuclear attacks on Arab capitals and chemical attacks on Israel. Not exactly good, but not a WORLD war. Just the obliteration of the region. GIven the problems caused by religion and the stupidity of fanaticism in the 'Holy Land' it would be a good thing if we could just cut it adrift and send it into the middle of the Pacific.

Arab states are unwilling to make extreme sacrifices to help the Palestinians. It is sad, but true - the Arab world is riven with internal conflict.

Arab states are unwilling to make extreme sacrifices to help the Palestinians. It is sad, but true - the Arab world is riven with internal conflict

In this conflict, I have no specific reason to take sides. Therefore, from an objective stand point and taking a devil's advocate stand - here are my questions.

If the Palestinians have a state and are allowed to build up their tanks, guns, and underground bunkers - next door to Israel, can they live in peace or given the strong and eternal animosity, will it fester to have a major war in short order?

Before you answer that, please take into account the young palestinians suffering under duress since their birth. Look at what happened at Pakistan. They got their land but still keep fighting with India for over 50 years and no end in sight. My thinking is along these lines.

If Palestine governance is like any other Arab countries, it would be fragmented, corrupted and more of a dictatorial than a modern democracy. The arabs would not pay to build the country. So the poverty, fragmented gangs will continue. All their anger will still focus on Israel for all their problems. Dont forget the revenge factor that creates these suicide bombers.

The day, they are told that the place they are living is now a free state, do you think - the life will suddenly change? The thugs will suddenly have a brain make over? The food will fall from the sky? The houses will be new? The industries will pop up out of no where? And the rest of the population will change their culture to a western culture to be financially sucessful?

Knowing the worse can happen, what can be done as part of a peace process to make it a sucess?

Just some thoughts...

Well, we may as well just nuke the poor! Damn them! And Arabs - what chance do they have to ever live in peace, they're so warlike.

Okay, I see what you're saying (the Pakistan analogy is an interesting one).

Following your argument, it is suggested that a peace deal will not mean peace becuase the Palestinians will be ruled by thugs, undemocratic and brimming with hatred still for the Israelis.

I don't see it that way. First and foremost, the issue at hand which causes so much hate is the occupation. That is the basic problem. End that and perhaps the hatred doesn't just vanish, but there is then room to start building bridges. And lets not forget the years from Oslo to the second Intifadah. Very few killings, violence much reduced, despite a more than a 100% increase in Israeli settlement building. When peace and normality appeared (disingenuously from the Israelis as it turned out) to be on the cards, violence receded. It is the occupation, the basic injustice that causes animosity.

No doubt there are plenty of Palestininas who revel in killing, conflict and power games. They view violence as a way of life. The same is true of Israelis and Irish and British and so on. There are always those who fear peace and thrive on war. But they are weakened and ultimately defeated when the flow of supporters is cut off. When a Palestinan son, or father or daughter is killed because they are throwing stones, ot in the cross-fire, they breed more and more recruits. For each and every humiliation at checkpoints, summary arrest, lack of self-determination, you breed hate. Occupiers are not loved. Take away the occupation, and you give yourslef a chance at peace. Let them blame Arafat, not Israel. Let them make economic mistakes, but let them do it in a genuine state. No doubt the hatred will continue in some, but the only way to ever end it is to end the occupation. This is basic and self-evident.

But could a Palestinian state become a threat to Israel? I doubt it - why waste the effort?

First of all, how are these impoverished, ill-governed, warlike people as you suggest ever going to organise a nation of less than 3 million to build a military capable of defeating the fourth largest army in the world? With whose weapons? US? Russian? How are they going to pay for it? Is Saudi going to lavish cash on a Palestinian military? You must be joking. Jordan and Syria? Not a chance.

OK, you sold me. Then since I (USA) am going to make peace between them, then here are my terms.

1. I want an UN force remain in Palestine for 10 years to keep peace.

2. I want all Arab countries to pitch in to the tune of $5 billion per year for 10 years to rebuild Palestine.

3. I want the schools to be modernized the same way as Turkey if not to western standards.

4. No tanks or heavy armaments by Palestine for 8 years.

5. A new general election in 6 months after the presence of the UN forces.

6. Another general election in 2.5 years. After that Palestinians can set their own time frame.

Comments welcome.

Originally posted by kmguru


eternal animosity, will it fester to have a major war in short order?

Before you answer that, please take into account the young palestinians suffering under duress since their birth. Look at what happened at Pakistan. They got their land but still keep fighting with India for over 50 years and no end in sight. My thinking is along these lines.

...

Kmguru,
I am not an expert on pakistan and india senario, but I like to correct you here, Pakistan never started a single war in Kashmire or against, now before you reference me to Kargil, I like to point out that it was an answer for silence capture of pakistani posts in Siachen, land always owned by pakistanis. All three wars were started by Indians. They keep fighting india? I am not sure what do u mean by that, to me it sounds like that they don't like india or against it's existant? Could you provide me any link that would say that Pakistan started all the wars or pakistans says india shouldn't exists?

Thank you.

The vote referred to was not taken in the Knesset!

Rather, it was a right-wing Likud party's Central Committee vote.

From the Financial Times:

What lent the occasion its political drama was the timing and the
first open clash between Mr Sharon and his arch-rival for national
leadership, Benjamin Netanyahu, former prime minister.

See:http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3MDF3M61D&live=true&tagid=ZZZINS5VA0C&subheading=middle%20east%20and%20africa

Take care :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Markx


Kmguru,
I am not an expert on pakistan and india senario, but I like to correct you here, Pakistan never started a single war in Kashmire or against, now before you reference me to Kargil, I like to point out that it was an answer for silence capture of pakistani posts in Siachen, land always owned by pakistanis. All three wars were started by Indians. They keep fighting india? I am not sure what do u mean by that, to me it sounds like that they don't like india or against it's existant? Could you provide me any link that would say that Pakistan started all the wars or pakistans says india shouldn't exists?

Thank you.

My reference comes from my family and friends who serve and served in Indian airforce, army, core of engineers, IAS officers, deputy secretary of Information, generals and a whole slew of my clan members at the very highest level of Indian government. On top of that some of them have been married to Muslims (very rich daughter of old kings).

Originally posted by kmguru


My reference comes from my family and friends who serve and served in Indian airforce, army, core of engineers, IAS officers, deputy secretary of Information, generals and a whole slew of my clan members at the very highest level of Indian government. On top of that some of them have been married to Muslims (very rich daughter of old kings).

Kmguru,
And what are they telling you?? That Pakistan statred wars with india? or don't like indian state? That would be very unrealistic. I have many friends from Pakistan and India, as you know i have spend quite a time in Pakistan by myself. I don't have family serving in Pakistan army or armed services but however I do have serious resources from both coutnries. If you like asked them how many muslims were killed during partition, I hope they will be honest there, the offical number is about 700,000 but unoffical by eye witnesses and other sources goes upto 1 million. But that's old news and not relevant to topic I think. I am still more interesed to find out what exactly is that they told you about Pakistanis beeing the agressive? I like to know the point of view on that if you don't mind. Also if you can ask them about siachen that would be great, I guess I heard stories from both sides but still like to know what you can provide. Thanks in advance.

Markx:

As you know, during the cold war, USA courted Pakistan while Russia courted India. During this time, USA setup intelligence gathering operations in Pakistan towards Russia and by default towards India to get information indirectly. From this framework, grew tension between India and Pakistan on ideology. Inspite of large donations from US, Pakistan was never able to run a successful democracy or capitalism (which is aparently anathema to Muslims). In the meantime stupid Indian leaders were brain washed into thinking that communism would solve the problem of the masses of poor people. While India or any Indians did not care about competing with Pakistan, Pakistanis did in a Freudian way (little brother, big brother). By 1971, Pakistan has faught 3 wars and this time lost the east pakistan to an independent country. Why? Because the Bagladeshis, who are also Muslims saw the stupidity of west pakistanis and decided to take no part in such jealousy fights. Here is what CIA has to say about Pakistan:

Pakistan is a poor, heavily populated country, suffering from internal political disputes, lack of foreign investment, and a costly confrontation with neighboring India. Pakistan's economic outlook continues to be marred by its weak foreign exchange position, which relies on international creditors for hard currency inflows. The MUSHARRAF government will face an estimated $21 billion in foreign debt coming due in 2000-03, despite having rescheduled nearly $2 billion in debt with Paris Club members. Foreign loans and grants provide approximately 25% of government revenue, but debt service obligations total nearly 50% of government expenditure. Although Pakistan successfully negotiated a $600 million IMF Stand-By Arrangement, future loan installments will be jeopardized if Pakistan misses critical IMF benchmarks on revenue collection and the fiscal deficit. MUSHARRAF has complied largely with IMF recommendations to raise petroleum prices, widen the tax net, privatize public sector assets, and improve the balance of trade. However, Pakistan's economic prospects remain uncertain; too little has changed despite the new administration's intentions. Foreign exchange reserves hover at roughly $1 billion, GDP growth hinges on crop performance, the import bill has been hammered by high oil prices, and both foreign and domestic investors remain wary of committing to projects in Pakistan.

Some rich Pakistanis have told me that they are sick and tired of living under armed guards (kidnapping children for ransom is a national criminal practice), they wish, India would take over Pakistan and be done with.

The GDP of India is $2200 billion whereas Pakistan is $280 Billion. India does not want Pakistan's land or women or debt. As a matter of fact, Nehru promised to keep Kashmir independent, if India would have annexed as a state, we would not be in such a mesh. Now Kashmir is up for land grab by China, Pakistan or anyone who has the military muscle. Now if you had a beautiful piece of land that you can legitmately annex to your property, but did not on principle, why would you covet a place over-run by people, crime and debt?

BTW, since India could not get the piece of Kashmir back from Pakistan, China thinks, they can grab the other piece easily. So the race is on to see if India will get the Kashmir back or lose it to both parties. Here is what can happen. If India grabs Kashmir that Pakistan stole, Pakistan out of desparation can drop an A-bomb. Then India will drop two plus take over Pakistan. Then there will be no more fights period. The Chinese stealing land is difficult to beat. Only through diplomatic solution since India is no match for Chinese army. Even USA will have a tough time fighting Chinese.

USA knows this. So work is underway to have a friend there from USA side. Hence there is a rapid military exchange including joint excercises between India and USA. If USA can build a true friendship with India - logistically it will benefit both from worldwide terrorism and Chinese expansion for the foreseeable future (common enemies). Then the Pakistani problem could become insignificant.

Apologies. I thought it was the Knesset. Likud is quite a different kettle of fish. Let's hope (well at least I hope) Likud are removed swiftly....

1. Agreed (speaking, rather undemocratically, for the Palestinians).

2. Concept fine. Exact sum would require dialogue.

3. Can you spell this out a bit more?

4. Fine.

5. Yes.

6. Yes.

Just add - I think we do need a pledge from Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia to recognise Israel (within pre-1967 borders) and its right to exist. Iraq and Iran can wait (they will come round).

Also. Cash payment final settlement for Palestinians displaced from pre-1967 borders. A one-off payment (to be supplied by Israel, UN, US - I don't mind) and no further right to return. A UN payoff to get Israeli settlers in the occupied territories back to Israel (Arab, US, UN, Israel - I don't mind).

Are we close to a deal?

I honestly think this is the deal that would bring peace - or at least as close as we could get. Once this is worked out (and I do think 1967 is the key date) then Arabs and Israelis can start trading (which would be SO beneficial all round) and start to work towards massive improvement (take Israel as an excuse away and I think you change the political dynamic in the Arab world - democracy and liberalisation then become the keys - I can go into detail if you'd prefer).

YES, we are close to a deal. (I will detail #3 later). What we need is a good sponsor with some money that can be used to put a private team together that can work with all parties as a catalyst. If that can happen, I personally will see to it that the economic progress is made in Palestinian side that will put them on par with any top western country within 10 years.

So, Capitan - do you know any power brokers in Palestine or England to make it happen?

The Palestinians don't deserve a state now.

The world has no memory. In 1947, the United Nations voted to partition Palestine and create two states between the Jordan and the Mediterranean: One, the Jewish state of Israel. The other, a homeland for Palestinian Arabs. Israel's leadership accepted the plan. In 1947, Israel affirmed the desire to live in peace with a Palestinian State. But the armies of nine Arab states came pouring over the borders to murder yet another million Jews. When the truce came, the territory for the Palestinian Arab State had been devoured by Egypt and Jordan and Syria.

The world forgot that thousands of Palestinian Arabs fled in the face of that Arab invasion. And when they reached the borders of Jordan and Egypt, they were not permitted to enter. Israel managed to absorb and settle millions of Jewish refugees from Europe and the Middle East. But the entire Arab League and all 26 Muslim nations, with all their oil-wealth, couldn't find room for their poor Palestinian brothers and sisters -- and left them to rot in squalid refugee camps.

Because? ....they are left to rot in squalid refugee camps??... :confused:

(would not that be a folly thing to do?)

I see nothing wrong with a palestinian state.

keep in mind, though, that this can only be done when terrorism stops. If the PA says they will stop it, and later says that they've done the best they can (as said in the past), then who can prove that such a government would be able to keep peaceful seperation between the two countries when a bomb goes off every week??? THis is what I'm talking about.

So I cant agree with marv's statement that the people dont deserve one, despite past events. There are people too, but terrorism is what kills their cause.

He makes a hugely accurate case, though, on how much the arabs helped their own brothers. I think the undeniably large majority of palestinian land should come off, primarily jordan. But there not fighting with jordanians, even though they swallowed up MOST palestinian land. The palestinians sold themselves out, and by resorting to terrorism, only continue to do so. Sure they hurt Israeli's quite a bit, but with the money going to terrorism and hatred.........you get my point.

As you know, during the cold war, USA courted Pakistan while Russia courted India. During this time, USA setup intelligence gathering operations in Pakistan towards Russia and by default towards India to get information indirectly. From this framework, grew tension between India and Pakistan on ideology. Inspite of large donations from US, Pakistan was never able to run a successful democracy or capitalism (which is aparently anathema to Muslims). In the meantime stupid Indian leaders were brain washed into thinking that communism would solve the problem of the masses of poor people. While India or any Indians did not care about competing with Pakistan, Pakistanis did in a Freudian way (little brother, big brother). By 1971, Pakistan has faught 3 wars and this time lost the east pakistan to an independent country. Why? Because the Bagladeshis, who are also Muslims saw the stupidity of west pakistanis and decided to take no part in such jealousy fights. Here is what CIA has to say about

Well, it could be interesting debate. I think there are certian things to consider and certain points that I think are important. USA always sided Pakistan from it's existance if you read the history you can see that USA from the very first day after 1947 was aiding pakistan. But when ever Pakistan needed USA they put sanctions on them. It is well known history 65 and 71 and then 1990. Now Pakistan never run good in democracy after ther first two prime minister it was ruled by military, Less currouption that way. More law and order. Even thou people don't like it here but trust me some times it is in best interest of the country. Anywyas, now for Bangladesh situation it is different story not exactly what you mention, as far as I know there was very little control over the Bangla desh goverment from Pakistani side. Their president Mujeeb Ur Rehman was the main character in the whole drama, he was the one who literaly invited the Indian army. Then there was a Mukti people who slaughter any one if they even mention the name of Paskistan. I am not sure if you know the details but it was a mess and pakistanis were caught in between internal politics, indians and Muktis. So that's totaly different story there.

You also mention that Indians never tried to compete with pakistan. I think that is not correct at all. Indians always try to compete with pakistan. They never liked Pakistan at the first place. India still today dream about Akhand India ( greater india I guess ) and talk about giant indian Empire from Pakistan to Nepal and Burma. So I disagree with your statment there. Recently I saw on Indian news paper online that Indian PM talked about no borders between and India and Pakistan and making one goverment based from Delhi. Now that doesn't work this way, it didn't that's why they got seperated. Indians always talk about teaching pakistan lesson, in today's yahoo Kashmir sections it says the same thing.

Kmugur, Interesting enough anytime any senior US diplomat travels or visits to India. Something horrible happens in Kashmir and Indians blame that on Pakistan. Just the recent bus attack during Christina Rocha's visit to India and Massacare of Sikhs during Clinton visit and parliment bombing during General Franks's visit. Now some one is trying to tell the world that Kashmiris are not freedom fighter but terrorists? Who would that benefit?? Now please if you use logic, only one names comes to mind is INDIANS. They get the most benefit out of tit then any one else. Why would a group try to do something like this to be banned or beeing called terrorists. It is easy for indians to pull those stunts and blame them to across the border. Same drama with Parliment shooting in Delhi, Eye wtinesses says that those guys were with the police and guards have been removed before the attack and the most funny thing was the bomb blast video on old junk of cloths. Seems every cheesy. Another good one was the plane hijacking of indian airlines, they went so far telling that they are kashmiri terrorists and they are asking for maps to pakistan but when the plane arrived at air port, NO One in the plane knew about any hijackings and there weren't any hi jackers at all? Now I like to ask why did the goverment issue the statement that Pakistanis backed Kashmiri group did the hijacking and asking maps for pakistan? Where on earth did you get that information when there weren't any hijackers? You see patern here? They are simply trying to finsih their headache by labeling kashmiri strugle to connect with terrorism. Pretty much whole world knows about all the indian stunts now and I guess they are start ignoring them now.


Pakistan:

Pakistan is a poor, heavily populated country, suffering from internal political disputes, lack of foreign investment, and a costly confrontation with neighboring India. Pakistan's economic outlook continues to be marred by its weak foreign exchange position, which relies on international creditors for hard currency inflows. The MUSHARRAF government will face an estimated $21 billion in foreign debt coming due in 2000-03, despite having rescheduled nearly $2 billion in debt with Paris Club members. Foreign loans and grants provide approximately 25% of government revenue, but debt service obligations total nearly 50% of government expenditure. Although Pakistan successfully negotiated a $600 million IMF Stand-By Arrangement, future loan installments will be jeopardized if Pakistan misses critical IMF benchmarks on revenue collection and the fiscal deficit. MUSHARRAF has complied largely with IMF recommendations to raise petroleum prices, widen the tax net, privatize public sector assets, and improve the balance of trade. However, Pakistan's economic prospects remain uncertain; too little has changed despite the new administration's intentions. Foreign exchange reserves hover at roughly $1 billion, GDP growth hinges on crop performance, the import bill has been hammered by high oil prices, and both foreign and domestic investors remain wary of committing to projects in Pakistan.

Some facts I like to fix here,

The total loan re schedule was about 14b dollars, Also I am not sure how familiar you are with the past two democratic goverments of country, but they did emptied all the goverment account and transfered money to their personal accounts. The new military goverment try to get money back but so far only 2bn dollars are recoverd. Pakistan suffered more from their democratic goverments then military ones. That's why people of Pakistan welcomed this military goverment because they were sick and tired of their so called democratic leaders. Every one I communicate here says that, they rather have military then the last two goverments. The foreign invetment did increased more then what it ever was you can check that out from yahoo if you do some search you can find bunch of stuff there another good website you can check out is www.Pakdef.info. You can search since it is a big site. yahoo search is also another good tool.




Some rich Pakistanis have told me that they are sick and tired of living under armed guards (kidnapping children for ransom is a national criminal practice), they wish, India would take over Pakistan and be done with.


I have met Indians with same sort of thoughts. Nothing new there.



The GDP of India is $2200 billion whereas Pakistan is $280 Billion. India does not want Pakistan's land or women or debt. As a matter of fact, Nehru promised to keep Kashmir independent, if India would have annexed as a state, we would not be in such a mesh. Now Kashmir is up for land grab by China, Pakistan or anyone who has the military muscle. Now if you had a beautiful piece of land that you can legitmately annex to your property, but did not on principle, why would you covet a place over-run by people, crime and debt?



Now here are certian things to consider, First India is 5 times bigger then Pakistan with almost Billion people. Pakistan is 140million people country. With limited resources and due to western double standards most of the time under scanctions for no reasons and in the other hands India for same reasons never did, and no one points fingers towards them. That's why I called that double standards. Now here are some stats,


Pakistan:

GDP - real growth rate: 4.8% (2000 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $2,000 (2000 est.)


India:
GDP - real growth rate: 6% (2000 est.)
GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $2,200 (2000 est.)

I don't see big differnce here. Compare the size and resources of each country Pakistan is not doing that bad. By the way data was obatined from CIA factbook. Now Pakistan is under 28bn dollar debt and India is in 98BN debt. Neither one is doing any good. Now Indians are little crazy about their military purchases and seems like they will continue going into debt because of every year defense expenses seems to be increasing for them and in other hand Pakistan is trying to keep them steady and even reduce this year their Defense budget. Same goes for missile testing. India recently teset 3 missiles, Akash, Sea base cruise missile and also another one that I can't think of. But in other hand Pakistani goverment try to act mature and didn't do any thing tit for tat. All reported in news and media, nothing is hidden from public. Also if you go to defensenews.com you can see how many purchases indians have in pipeline. Almost close to 8bn dollars? Why do they need all that? They are not going to fight china, they know that China can kick their ass easily. They need all that for Pakistan. There are no other logical reasons. Also foreign exchange assest for Pakistan are close to 6 bn now, you mention less then that I think.



BTW, since India could not get the piece of Kashmir back from Pakistan, China thinks, they can grab the other piece easily. So the race is on to see if India will get the Kashmir back or lose it to both parties. Here is what can happen. If India grabs Kashmir that Pakistan stole, Pakistan out of desparation can drop an A-bomb. Then India will drop two plus take over Pakistan. Then there will be no more fights period. The Chinese stealing land is difficult to beat. Only through diplomatic solution since India is no match for Chinese army. Even USA will have a tough time fighting Chinese.


I already answer the above. And I don't think that Pakistan stole land. And I don't think that India stole land either. Only country that stole something is China, it was the international issue between india and pakistan and I dunno why china jump in there. Pakistan will drop A-bomb, it is very logical.........but the truth is no one will use A-bomb as we all know that they are use to blackmail, when both countries have it then neither one think about using it. But if I were the comanding officer of Pakistan army I would have keep that my last option too. Losing is not the option for either side.

USA knows this. So work is underway to have a friend there from USA side. Hence there is a rapid military exchange including joint excercises between India and USA. If USA can build a true friendship with India - logistically it will benefit both from worldwide terrorism and Chinese expansion for the foreseeable future (common enemies). Then the Pakistani problem could become insignificant.


I don't think that we know what we are doing. Pakistan are very reserved now in dealing with us. They know that we left them three times before and will leave them again. I don't think that we can ignore Pakistan again. It is sitting on gold mine. Centeral Asian oil will go though Pakistan the pipe line will be build soon or later. Also if there are military excersises with Indians there are more witn pakistanis, remember we are still using three of their air bases plus their borders and their ocean. On top of all that their joint military delegation is in USA to talk about issues related to their defense. They are here after 8 years of break. There are significants moves around the globe and every one is beeing affected. At first glance things look something and on another they are something else. I just gave you my view here, I could wrong or right. But if you ask me how are both coutnries doing? I can only say that, they both are messed up. Pakistan start the cleaning process and I hope it goes well and Indians yet need to start their own. But now the Indian goverment is running by religious fanatics, so it won't happen in near future. But they both need to pay more attention to general public and education. More they educate better it is for the world.

Peace

With regards to Bangladesh...So that's totally different story there.

It is the result that counts.

You also mention that Indians never tried to compete with pakistan. I think that is not correct at all. Indians always try to compete with pakistan.

Show me the always part. "Always" means day after day. I will accept if you provide only 12(months)X50(years) = 600 major examples. Thanks.

India still today dream about Akhand India ( greater india I guess ) and talk about giant indian Empire from Pakistan to Nepal and Burma.

This is a sentiment that you won't understand. Those who are Aryans will. They once had their culture spread from Afghanistan to Burma. Their first settlements were in the Hindukush region. The Pakistanis are part of that culture. In case you did not notice, India is very close to Afghani people, India sent aids and governance help to Afghanistan. They are all the same people. Westerners tries to divide and conquor for thousands of years. Sooner or later those people will wise up to be strong as a group. Like the united Germany - they will have their day. Never get between family fights. Akhand means 'undivided'.

Recently I saw on Indian news paper online that Indian PM talked about no borders between and India and Pakistan and making one goverment based from Delhi.

Rightly so. Divorce is a way of life for westerners. Please dont force that on those people.

Indians always talk about teaching pakistan lesson, in today's yahoo Kashmir sections it says the same thing.

There are over a billion of them. Try to be relevant. On the otherhand, teaching lessons is not a bad thing. I guess you don't believe in learning...

Now some one is trying to tell the world that Kashmiris are not freedom fighter but terrorists?

Fighting freedom from what? Here is the history. When Iraq took over Kuwait, all hell broke lose. But when Pakistanis took over part of J&K, no body did anything.

Pakistan is a southern Asian country that neighbours India. It was originally a part of India. In 1947, when the British left India, some Muslims wanted a country of their own and got it. This new country was called Pakistan. The leaders of Pakistan felt that they should rule all areas of India where people belonging to the Muslim faith were in a majority. The majority of people in Jammu & Kashmir were Muslims, while others were Hindus and Buddhists. Some Muslims in Jammu & Kashmir wanted to be part of Pakistan while most others did not want that. But the rulers of Pakistan felt that if they could capture Jammu & Kashmir by military force, then the people would have to accept their rule. That is why they attacked the state of Jammu & Kashmir in 1947. At that time, a Maharaja ruled Jammu & Kashmir. Pakistani troops overran most of the state and the Maharaja had to escape to India. He asked India for help and merged his state with India. This was called the accession of the state of Jammu & Kashmir to India. Some Pakistani leaders to this day are unhappy that the whole of Jammu & Kashmir is not part of Pakistan.

Jammu & Kashmir in the year 1947 was an independent country for all practical purposes. The Maharaja who ruled the State had signed agreements with both Pakistan and India to remain neutral and not be part of either country. India honoured that agreement but Pakistan did not. Pakistani raiders and soldiers attacked the state in 1947 forcing the Maharaja to flee to India. The Maharaja asked India to help his people who were being killed and looted by the Pakistani raiders. He also agreed to make Jammu &; Kashmir part of India. The Indian ruler at that time was Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru. He accepted Jammu &; Kashmir's accession to India and agreed to rescue his people from the Pakistani attackers. Indian troops were flown into the Kashmir Valley and they managed to drive away most of the Pakistani raiders from the state. But a large area of the state remained under the control of Pakistani soldiers. These areas were difficult to reach because they were surrounded by tall mountain ranges. Also, India wanted to stop the fighting. The fighting ended with Pakistan retaining control of a large area of the state but India keeping a larger part.

The fighting ended in the beginning of 1949 because India did not want the war to drag on. India felt that other influential countries like the US and Britain would ask Pakistan to stop fighting and withdraw its soldiers from a State that had legally become part of India. India therefore went to the world body called the United Nations, or UN for short. India said that Pakistan had attacked a neutral State and that State had now become part of India. Therefore, Pakistan should withdraw its soldiers from the State. The United Nations agreed with the Indian demand and asked Pakistan to withdraw its forces from Jammu & Kashmir. It also told India to ask the people of Jammu & Kashmir whether they wanted to be part of India or part of Pakistan. This was because some people in the State wanted to join Pakistan while others wanted to stay with India. The Prime Minister of India agreed to ask the people what they wanted through a process known as a referendum or plebiscite. Pakistan did not agree and refused to vacate the areas of Jammu & Kashmir it had forcibly grabbed. Because of this a plebiscite could not be held. Powerful countries like the US and Britain did not force Pakistan to withdraw its troops from Kashmir. They simply termed the entire State as a ‘Disputed Territory.’.

This was done essentially because both India and Pakistan claimed the state of Jammu & Kashmir. The big powers, like the US and Britain, did not want to take sides and might have felt that it would be best if the problem of the state could be settled between India and Pakistan. India wants to settle the problems once and for all. But Pakistan will only accept a solution under which it can keep the Kashmir Valley to itself. India cannot allow this. Therefore, the so-called "dispute" continues to this day.

Who would that benefit?? Now please if you use logic, only one names comes to mind is INDIANS.

That sounds like a Muslim logic. It is the same logic used for 9/11 WTC and Pentagon attack. It is USA that did it and is blaming Muslims - right? Do you know that I even saw in CNN, CBS and other channels that they interviewed educated Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Amman etc and got replies that Muslims did not do it. It is the Israelis and USA that blew up WTC and Pentagon...If a child says, I can understand. But grown up and educated Muslims???

Pretty much whole world knows about all the indian stunts now and I guess they are start ignoring them now.

More Muslim logic...Muslims say the same things about USA too...

Some facts I like to fix here,...

Please don't. That excerpt is from CIA factbook. They are the authority here being an ally of Pakistan from day one.

I have met Indians with same sort of thoughts. Nothing new there.

Indians dont kill American journalists or kidnap their own people. Here is alink and excerpt:

The numbers of kidnapping and abduction of christian women by the majority Muslim community members and forcibly marriage through out pakistan is more than the number of 350 in the year of 2001 as given by one religious leader in his speech at protest procession at Multan on the incident of Kidnapping and forcibly marrying a christian woman, mother of five children. The first information report is also lodged in relevant police station but as usual the police to provide enough time to the Muslim kidnapper to forcibly convert the Christian woman to Islam and to legally protect the accused Muslim delays the action. Link: http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/editorialdetails.php?editorialid=23. What a country!

Another excerpt: India Friday dismissed Pakistan's claim that the kidnappers of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl have been in contact by telephone with persons in the Indian government with at least three of them holding "important positions." Again Muslim logic!!!

.........but the truth is no one will use A-bomb as we all know that they are use to blackmail

I always had difficulty understanding Muslim logic as other westerners (non-muslim people) - that is why we could not understand these Muslim terrorists...to be fair, that does not mean there are other non-Muslim crazies out there. But the entire planet is focused on what the Muslim terrorists will do next...with their blow-themselves-up logic. In year 2002 that is what I call Muslim logic.

Pakistan start the cleaning process and I hope it goes well and Indians yet need to start their own. But now the Indian goverment is running by religious fanatics, so it won't happen in near future. But they both need to pay more attention to general public and education. More they educate better it is for the world.

Finally you are using the right logic. Old habits die hard. You spent too much time in Pakistan. You have to look beyond Pakistan since we are all inter-dependent on this little blue planet. India is too big and diversified to have largescale religious fanaticism. But if it happens, foreign investment will dry up and successful people and companies will move out. The politicians are not that stupid because they can not offer anything in return. India is going through rapid expansion in certain areas. So it is putting too much social pressure in the society. Such stress has to find some outlet to express. There are a lot of Muslims in India. I hope Islamic Pakistan does not fight with India and create animosity by Indians towards all Muslims - doemstic or foreign. Another Muslim logic is to cut-off ones nose to spite the face. I hope this does not happen with and among India and Pakistan.

Khuda-hafiz

MarkX is a Pakistani. His real name is Faraz A. See:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1635

Originally posted by capnkarl
MarkX is a Pakistani. His real name is Faraz A. See:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1635

Nice try. But no cigar. :o Read the thread there. Then come back.

:p :p

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kmguru

""It is the result that counts. ""

What exactly are you counting here? What results of what? bangladesh?? History my friend read some.

Show me the always part. "Always" means day after day. I will accept if you provide only 12(months)X50(years) = 600 major examples. Thanks.

Do I really need to? Well if you say so. Yes they day after day whine and cry about how evil the Pakistan is. All their resources instead of helping their poor people is going to build all sorts of missiles, and weapons, for who??? I am sure they are so peace loving movements there or they will use them to create a better world. They will water their land and spread message of love to their neighbors. Wake up Guru. You don’t spend billions of dollars on weapons for peace time. There have got to be other serious intentions. Every time you heard a news some Indian leader is bragging about waging a war. Well don’t get me wrong same goes towards the Pakistani side as far it goes to statments both sides make childesh statments.

This is a sentiment that you won't understand. Those who are Aryans will. They once had their culture spread from Afghanistan to Burma. Their first settlements were in the Hindukush region. The Pakistanis are part of that culture. In case you did not notice, India is very close to Afghani people, India sent aids and governance help to Afghanistan. They are all the same people. Westerners tries to divide and conquor for thousands of years. Sooner or later those people will wise up to be strong as a group. Like the united Germany - they will have their day. Never get between family fights. Akhand means 'undivided'.

Now the joke of the year is “ India and Afghanistan are close”. Dude what are you smoking? First of all their boarders don’t even meet. Then Aiding them won’t make them same people as Indians are. Hell, they are not even same people as from Pakistan except some from borders areas. India is close to Afghani people? lol. Family fights??……..lol Or should I say there wasn’t any family at all there. Aryans or not Aryans it is pathetic thinking and seems like you think in the same way too, to take over the whole area and make one big land?. Why can’t you think that what if people from Burma and Nepal and Sri lanka, or Pakistan or Afghanistan would like to live free life? Free from Indian fanatical rule. Sorry but I am just talking facts here. Indians are so called democracy. I can give you bunch of links and you can browse all you want. Check the bottom of thread.



Rightly so. Divorce is a way of life for westerners. Please don’t force that on those people.


There you go again. You are simply talking their language now. In other words you are saying fight, kill and take over all the land they want?. You are still talking war and more killings. Is it something you like to see? or just a random thought u had?


There are over a billion of them. Try to be relevant. On the otherhand, teaching lessons is not a bad thing. I guess you don't believe in learning...


Another emotional statement. At least to me, seems like what ever I posted you took it very personal. Dude I was just forwarding the info I gather from Pakistanis. It may be one sided but could you please show me other side more balanced? Besides your personal emotions or ideas. Get a grip.lol


Fighting freedom from what? Here is the history. When Iraq took over Kuwait, all hell broke lose. But when Pakistanis took over part of J&K, no body did anything.

Well if you ask Pakistanis they say the same thing about Siachen. I guess your military family in India didn’t mention any of that? Kashmir suppose to have election according to UN regulations but apparently Indians never gave them that right for 50 yrs. I am sure there is nothing wrong with that. Also I like to say that pakistan did contribute big time in armed strugle there and it really didn't go very well but atleast it is keeping 700,000 + Indian military busy there.



]


That sounds like a Muslim logic. It is the same logic used for 9/11 WTC and Pentagon attack. It is USA that did it and is blaming Muslims - right? Do you know that I even saw in CNN, CBS and other channels that they interviewed educated Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Amman etc and got replies that Muslims did not do it. It is the Israelis and USA that blew up WTC and Pentagon...If a child says, I can understand. But grown up and educated Muslims???


I wonder why didn’t you use Pakistani logic. Instead you used word Muslims. Could it be because you have something personal against them? Lol. You are making me think that you cannot have balance argument here. Seems like religion is taking over you. Also instead of providing logical explanation that why any thing bad only occur when USA’s diplomat visiting India? You failed to answer.

Pretty much whole world knows about all the Indian stunts now and I guess they are start ignoring them now.

More Muslim logic...Muslims say the same things about USA too...

Again it shows that you like to avoid the talk but instead just blame all on Muslim logic. If and only if you are correct then it would be Pakistani logic rather then Muslim. But I think you are more thinking like a typical Indian even they don’t like that. I work with at least 5 Indians and 3 Pakistanis. Can you please explain how that Plane Hijacking drama ended? Where there were no Hijackers>? I didn’t see Pakistanis pulling stunt like that?

Some facts I like to fix here,...

[b]Please don't. That excerpt is from CIA factbook. They are the authority here being an ally of Pakistan from day one.[

Really? Isn’t it Indian Hysteria? That America always favors Pakistan. And no body cares about India? I thought you would be more logical then what you wrote so far.



Indians dont kill American journalists or kidnap their own people. Here is alink and excerpt:

The numbers of kidnapping and abduction of christian women by the majority Muslim community members and forcibly marriage through out pakistan is more than the number of 350 in the year of 2001 as given by one religious leader in his speech at protest procession at Multan on the incident of Kidnapping and forcibly marrying a christian woman, mother of five children. The first information report is also lodged in relevant police station but as usual the police to provide enough time to the Muslim kidnapper to forcibly convert the Christian woman to Islam and to legally protect the accused Muslim delays the action. Link: http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/editorialdetails.php?editorialid=23. What a country!

Another excerpt: India Friday dismissed Pakistan's claim that the kidnappers of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl have been in contact by telephone with persons in the Indian government with at least three of them holding "important positions." Again Muslim logic!!!

.........but the truth is no one will use A-bomb as we all know that they are use to blackmail

I always had difficulty understanding Muslim logic as other westerners (non-muslim people) - that is why we could not understand these Muslim terrorists...to be fair, that does not mean there are other non-Muslim crazies out there. But the entire planet is focused on what the Muslim terrorists will do next...with their blow-themselves-up logic. In year 2002 that is what I call Muslim logic.


There you go again. Same hysteria. I don’t get it. If you are Indian it doesn’t stop you from being sincere and logical or balanced. At least I hope not. Any thing in disagreement with you is Muslim logic. Any thing favours you is Good Logic. lol.


Finally you are using the right logic. Old habits die hard. You spent too much time in Pakistan. You have to look beyond Pakistan since we are all inter-dependent on this little blue planet. India is too big and diversified to have largescale religious fanaticism. But if it happens, foreign investment will dry up and successful people and companies will move out. The politicians are not that stupid because they can not offer anything in return. India is going through rapid expansion in certain areas. So it is putting too much social pressure in the society. Such stress has to find some outlet to express. There are a lot of Muslims in India. I hope Islamic Pakistan does not fight with India and create animosity by Indians towards all Muslims - doemstic or foreign. Another Muslim logic is to cut-off ones nose to spite the face. I hope this does not happen with and among India and Pakistan.

Seems like you are trying to defend why India is so slow. Don’t you think Both India and Pakistan needed to do this long time ago? At least I think so.
Don’t you think that Indians are already cleaning India from Muslims?? I really don’t favor any kind of killing Indians or Pakistanis or anywhere else. But current events In Gujarat are horrible example of how India is sponsoring ethnic cleansing. Don’t you agree?

Now for the references, First of all I like to show every one that So called Indian democracy is nothing but Hoax. KMGURU, you said no kills Christians and Americans in India? I like thank my friends and Pakdef for valuable information,

Christians Killings

http://dalitstan.org/journal/genocide/christians/christians.html

Indian Genocides

http://www.genocideinindia.org/


Muslims Killings in Gujrat under the military and police overlooking.

http://www.geocities.com/bjp_gujarat/


Horrible list of Indian Killings Fellow Indians in the name or religion and race. And KM you are worried about Muslims? And you think that India one day will be re unite with bunch of neighboring countries?? I wonder what would they do after they will rule more countries? Maybe some more killings??

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/6817/India.html

Great website with lots of details of So-called Peaceful Indians.

http://indianterrorism.mybravenet.com/

Some more,

http://www.halcyon.com/pub/FWDP/Eurasia/naga.txt

I can go on and on. I like to remind you KMGURU I am not against Indians or Pakistanis. All I am trying to tell you that you think Indians are all great and nice but the reality is very bitter and it is all here. I am sure one can do some search and post lots of Pakistan also and I hope you can do that. ;-)

If you think that I am Pakistani Because I try to favor them then its your choice.I lived there for almost 5 years and just happened to feel their side of story too. I do get help from all the resources available, including friends from pakdef or any other online Pakistani resource. It won’t make me Pakistani I do admit that men from pakdef helped me out since I told you I am no expert in south Asians. I will use all the resources. By the way the links I provided you are not by Pakistanis or Muslims only they are the voices of all the kind of Indians.




Some more interesting tid bits for you regarding peace process Pakistan tried to start to negotiate but Indians refused. If you have any articles regarding Pakistani refused indian peace proposal I like to see them too. Thanks.


" Indian Home Minister LK Advani has turned down an invitation by his Pakistani counterpart, Moinuddin Haider, to visit Islamabad for talks.
Mr Advani, a senior figure in the BJP-led government in Delhi, said he was grateful for the invitation, but could see no sense in dialogue while Pakistan was backing militants in Indian-administered Kashmir. ""

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1863000/1863669.stm


India snubs Pakistan over talks:

India rejects Pakistan's proposal to hold talks on a phased withdrawal of troops from the heavily militarised border.
» 89% relevance | 29/01/2002 | similar stories

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1789000/1789164.stm

":Pakistan has given a set of proposals to India for the improvement of relations between the two countries, including immediate talks to discuss a phased withdrawal of troops from the borders. "


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1783000/1783785.stm

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has said his government is ready to engage in talks with India aimed at reducing tensions between the two countries.
He sent the offer in a message to Prime Minister AB Vajpayee on the occasion of India's Republic Day on Saturday.
In his message, General Musharraf extended "sincere felicitations" to the Indian prime minister, his government, and the people of India.
President Musharraf said he wanted Pakistan and India to be good neighbours.
"I would like to reiterate our readiness to engage in a serious and sustained dialogue with India to commence together a journey of peace and progress," he wrote.
The message comes a day after India tested a model of its nuclear-capable ballistic missile Agni off its eastern coast.
The version tested on Friday has a range of around 700 kilometres, suggesting it is designed to hit strategic targets in Pakistan.



Pakistan sends talks offer to India:

The Pakistani President, General Pervez Musharraf, has sent India an offer of talks to resolve tensions between the two countries.
The message was sent to mark India's Republic day.
In a message to Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee General Musharraf said he was eager to join India in a serious and sustained dialogue adding that he wanted the countries to be good neighbours.
The message comes a day after India tested a nuclear-capable missile off its eastern coast.
The test of the Agni missile prompted criticism from the United States, Britain, Germany, Japan, Australia and the European Union.
Pakistan denounced the test as harrmful to regional stability.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1783000/1783661.stm


US Secretary of State Colin Powell has criticised India for testing a nuclear-capable ballistic missile, but says he does not believe it will increase tensions with neighbouring Pakistan.
"It's still a tense situation there, [however] I remain pleased that both sides are looking for a diplomatic solution," he told reporters.
The test of the Agni missile, off India's eastern coast, has prompted criticism from Britain, Germany, Japan, Australia and the European Union.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1783000/1783333.stm


Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee has rejected an offer by Pakistan to jointly investigate last week's attack on the Indian parliament.
Mr Vajpayee told parliamentarians from his BJP party that India would conduct the investigation on its own and bring the culprits to justice.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1716000/1716624.stm
India has rejected suggestions that it show Islamabad evidence that Pakistani-backed militants carried out the attack on the Indian parliament last week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1721000/1721723.stm


9 pages full of killing against Indian muslims. Even there is so called army and police , infact the adminster all the killings and watch it all happening.

http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?tab=news&meta=&sortby=sortdate&q=Indians+riots&scope=news



P.S You really didn't need to change name for one post.lol:p

Peace :p :cool:

Hello Markx:

I visited the Pakdef site. Looks like you or your friend, under name Faraz copied from my post in this topic and asked for help in the reply. I did not have much interest in Indian and Pakistani affairs, until I had to reply to you. Here are my thoughts today:

Truth be told, I am neither Indian nor Muslim. That does not mean, I can not be objective based on the information that is available independently like CIA factbook and Jammu & Kashmir site by J&K people. I do a lot of international travel solving complex business issues. I have met a lot of foreign diplomats in the process. So, I base my opinion from their analysis of the situation. That does not make it right, but because they are the authority, and policy makers, I can extrapolate how the results could be. The person on the street does not have much influence in the process. That is life.

It is interesting how in the Pakdef forum, they try to create a cognitive bias by labeling me as an Indian and therefore my data is untrue- even though it came from CIA and a financial source that lends billions to foreign countries.

You need to read more of the history of the Hindukush people. If you want to fast forward to today - Israelis would love that. That way, they dont have to go back 4000 years and start negotiation from there.

By now, most Muslims in your shoes would have blown themselves up by just reading my posts. I am glad you hung in there. There is hope for you.... :D

The conflict between Pakistanis and Indians can not be solved by you and me. I was trying to show you where it is heading from an emergent complexity model. It seems, your understanding in the matter is limited even though we are in a science forum. I strongly suggest you read and understand the book "A new kind of science" - by Stephen Wolfram - then we can discuss the matter more intelligently. I believe life is a learning process. I think somewhere I read Quran (sp?) advocates that too. If you are willing to do that, then you can enrich your life that way.

After all, I assume, that is one of the reason - you are in this forum!

Markx:

Ali Mian of Pakdef posted the following in the Pakistan Military Consortium ( http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1656 )


I think you are right on the money there Furqan. The US rapproachment with Pakistan is because of necessity rather than sincerity of having good relations. I think we should understand that and realize that in terms of the larger strategic interests the US has.

The US as in the past needs Pakistan's help now for their war against terrorism and to put in place a US friendly and US controlled government in Afghanistan. Also they want to see radical groups within Pakistan packed up. Without Pakistan's support non of these objectives can be accomplished. However the longterm strategic interest of the US is to support India against an increasingly strong and powerful China. This whole war on terrorism and US involvement in C.Asia also has a longterm agenda of encircling China.

US cooperation with India is the result of this long term policy objective, so it can be expected that in the future the US would side with India openly in case of any military conflict with Pakistan. However at the time, it is not in the interest of the US to see such a conflict occur as they have not been able to attain the objectives for which they need Pakistan. Once these objectives are attained, I am sure we will start seeing far more cooperation between India and the US, along with open criticism of Pakistan.

Another important issue here is the nuclear capability of Pakistan which has made things more complicated for not only India but the US. Had Pakistan not had nuclear weapons we probably would have seen some sort of Kashmir Solution forced down Pakistan's throat, the non acceptance of which would have meant serious negative repercussions for Pakistan as a state and its ability to exist. However given the reality that we do have nuclear weapons, thus placing certain policy limitations on both the US and India in terms of options available.

The thought that India with US support may try to take out Pakistan's nukes in a preliminary strike or take them over in some sort of Commando raid in my opinion is unrealistic. Pakistan's nukes are not all stored in one location nor are they sitting idely in some make shift shed or mud house like Taleban stored ammo. The risk of such an attempt is too great and means certain nuclear war.

The alternative that India and the US face then is to create a situation for Pakistan where it can be overwhelmed by India but not to push it to the brink that it feels it has to use nukes. This can be done by stengthening India's conventional capabilities and economy while maintaining an economic strangle hold on Pakistan economically while encouraging domestic political instability. By constantly threatening Pakistan and trying to engage it in limited conventional conflicts that are expensive, India hopes to wear down Pakistan's resolve on Kashmir and come to a solution, namely accept the LOC as international border. They believe that with US support this may very well be possible. Once a settlement on Kashmir is achieved, pressure on Pakistan will be maintained to cut back its armed forces and military budget, cancel its nuke program, missile program because with a new peace with India Pakistan has no need for these things. On the other hand, India will keep all these toys in its claims to counter China. In the whole process Pakistan is disarmed and becomes a proxy of India, its existance at India's mercy. While China loses a strong parter in S. Asia, US troops and control in C.Asia, Afghanistan, S.E Asia....Check Mate!!!!

Both China and Pakistan realize this and of course will take measures to counter such a drastic power change in Asia. In anycase, to make a long story short, India sitting on our borders is part of a longterm strategic plan than needs to be dealt with through cool mindedness and strategy, not force. However, we should be prepared and ready for anything, afterall we cant trust the Indians.

I pretty much agree with the above analysis by Mr. Mian. Does that make me a Pakistani too?

Thanks for reply. I thought you would never come back now. I told you that my sources are every where. I am not sure how old you are. But in last thirty three years I have spend atleast 26 years traveling with my family. One of the reasons I am familiar with asian states and the people. Your post was there ( pakdef ) becasue I send it to one of the Pakistani friends ( also the one who introduce me to Islam), If he posted there I guess there is nothing wrong in that. I needed help since I didn't know every thing about them. And yes some memebers of that forum did send me lots of links and articles. I could only go through some of them. Thats how I manage that above reply.

You have to understand that, is pro pakistani website. You can get remarks like that. Since you were talking about books, thanks for your recomendation I will try to get it. I would like you to check out couple of them too.

The Great Game : The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia
by Peter Hopkirk

Jihad: The Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia
by Ahmed Rashid

Five Mile High
by Richard L./ House

The Pakistan Army (1998 Edition)
by Stephen P. Cohen


Check them you, you will like them. I really do care about situation there, It is very important for all of us. Maybe people in those coutries don't realize how serious the situation is but I am sure we all do. As far as you are concern about me not knowing history. I guess I would not go in details. You really don't want me to start. And sorry it will hurt you or any other pakistni or Indians. It is a bitter history there. Nothing new for third world countries. Any ways I just listed few books. I also have read a wonderfull book about afghan war that i can't think of now. But will post when I get chance.

I don't think that you posted something shocking in your post and that would make me leave. I am not born muslims either. I converted. Some things you will never understand. Not your fault. I believe you can think in a straight line. But try thinking out of the box. For you it is very simple to blame every thing on your so called "muslim logic" and look away from the real picture. But ask those who are suffering. They might think same about you or others. No one is perfect. There aren't any good goverments either. At least I can't think of any.

By the way you said your data is from CIA: Didn't you say that CIA is not good enough for data since it is pro pakistani?. I really hope if you can stay on one thing that you say. Seems like you are going back and forth. lol It is interesting. Anyways I will not point out more of your inconsistancies.
:o :D

I don't think that we are solving anything here or any where. It is also stated in Quran that " one have to change himself to bring the change" Or something close to that. Just to let you know I am still leaning and reading.:) So in other words no one can solve anything here. Only we can share our ideas and opinion, we can throw some facts now and then. Only people of those countries can change their destiny. But let me remind you something. That issue with india and pak will never resolve untill a major war. Neither you or nor I can prevent that. We can only hope that it won't be a nuclear one. Sorry If I offend you, But I posted exactly what I think about your ideas and thinking. :p

It is a sad situation but it is hard for you to understand. I am not sure if you have ever visited any of the trouble regions and I mean trouble, like Kashmir, Kosovo, Bosina etc etc. I have. And I can give you some harsh realities. However my kashmir trip was old but still it was worth my time. I am a student of geo strategic/defense studies. I do enjoy reading books so if you got some more please feel free to tell me.

Peace out:cool: :cool:

I am not born muslims either. I converted. Some things you will never understand. Not your fault. I believe you can think in a straight line. But try thinking out of the box. For you it is very simple to blame every thing on your so called "muslim logic" and look away from the real picture. But ask those who are suffering. They might think same about you or others. No one is perfect. There aren't any good goverments either. At least I can't think of any.

Markx:

You got confused. I have a Masters in "nonlinear systems". I practice what I studied. As such, I try to make all my posts multi-layer so that from teen agers to PhDs can understand at their level and enjoy the posts. Since I can not post a book here, I usually try to convey an entire science with a few words like "Chaotic science", "Multivariate Dynamic Systems" and so on. Without understanding the science behind them, it is very difficult for a lay person to get the issues or clarity in the event. US government spends billions on reengineering and complexity management in defense systems. I try to condense that information in a few paragraphs - knowing that not everybody can understand that. But the purpose is for those who are in a position to use the information, can and benefit them and the world.

Whether I am 24 years old or 54, whether I manage a worldwide e-government exchange, whether I belong to a specific religion should not matter - what should matter is the content and if one can understand them. If, not - then we are not communicating at the same level to be understood.

I teach "creativity" (mentioned in this forum in the past) and "thinking out of the box" to upper level business professionals in USA. I have done the same in China and India too. While the Chinese soaked it up and used it in practice, the Indians did not (the impression I got was they thought they knew better). That is when I predicted (1984) that the Chinese will surpass the Indians in no time and in a matter of years will be on par with USA. Today in 2002, they are still on target in my prediction.

More later....