Palestine/Israel Conflict Discussion Relevant and Needed

I was sorry to see that the thread reacting to the latest suicide attack on a bus in Haifa was closed. If we are going to recoil from reaction to this type conflict, WE&P will have a lot of closed threads, and few relevant open ones, in the months and years ahead on the Sharon-Bush course the world is embarked upon. Anyway, here is how I tried to respond in Gil-W's thread:

As after each of these attacks, I'm sad for the victims, apprehensive for the victims of the IDF reprisals, and apprehensive for the peace process.

As if that isn't bad enough, the US has now co-opted Sharon's philosophy of responding to murderous revenge with murderous revenge.

Why can't more people (surely anyone with minimal intelligence sees it) admit that this does not work?

Gil-W, co-existence in Haifa is not a lie. Putting out fire with gasoline is the lie. Ending Terrorism with retaliation including killing, destruction of property, theft of property, and various acts of oppression, is the lie.

I am glad you and your friends were not harmed. But you are not safe, and will never be safe, until you raise leaders who understand 1) human nature, and 2) that your enemies are human. I hope that someday Israel becomes a homeland in the Middle East. So far, you are not fully a part of the Middle East. You are in a fragile fortress of fear and mistrust that is presenting itself mistakenly as a foreign body to be rejected.

I hope you and the Palestinians will learn to de-escalate and negotiate, to become sister Middle Eastern countries and endure side by side. I hope that America will again find insightful leadership, that could again move forward the process of peace. I hope you will be safe in Israel someday.

Shalom

 

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The thread was not closed due to reaction to the suicide attack, but
to the personal attacks in the thread. There was no "relevant" discussion.
This thread will not be allowed to degenerate to the same level either.

 

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Fair enough, I only saw Gil-W's thread after you had mostly cleaned it up. Let's hope decorum does prevail in any posts in this one. I believe that the two sides need safe interface for airing and hopefully learning to understand the very disparate perpectives. Everyone touched by this on either side certainly has a lot of pain in common, and it easily gets out of hand. That doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile.

 

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hypewaders:

Specifically, how would you end Palestinian/Arab/Islamist terrorism against Israel, and visa versa (concrete steps, avoiding abstractions)?

 

i would want an affirmation from all parties involved on israel's right to exist.

http://www.likud.nl/govern72.html

understand that arafat always gives 2 speeches. one for the int comm and the other (in arabic) to his supporters. in fact i would have them lay down their arms. my jewish brothers have made concession after concession only to see em rejected. let them make the overture. i recommend a hardline!

Although mutual in appearance, this agreement (nicknamed the "Oslo accords") actually was not really parallel. Then-Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin promised actions, Palestinian Authority (PA) leader Yasir Arafat a change of heart. Israel's concessions were concrete and irreversible, while the Palestinian ones were subjective and conditional.

Israel materially fulfilled its promises. Some 97% of Palestinians who in 1993 lived under Israeli rule now live under Arafat's PA. In contrast, the Palestinians have not kept their word.

In myriad ways, Palestinians signal a continued intention to destroy the Jewish state. Politicians still speak about jihad for Jerusalem; maps show a Palestine not alongside but instead of Israel; children are made to sing on television about becoming "martyrs" against Israel.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/309

they have only themselves to blame for radicalising of israeli politics.

 

Mr. G: I think this was touched on back in the thread Where am I wrong about palestine?[/]

In the most simple terms, this is diffused just like any schoolyard kicking, biting, scratching fight. A third party separates the combattants, and once sufficient calm is restored, the original grievance is addressed through compromise. Peacekeeping forces, retaliation for outbreaks ended, 1967 borders, then the negotiations: Settlements disbanded, Jerusalem administration, etc.

Present failures in US government (we have our own Sharon now) require considering other 3rd parties. With the US fracturing the UN, it is possible that Israel and moderate palestinians could collabaorate publicly in the enlistment of these forces. This opens up many possible coalitions. Perhaps that's another thread.

 

Eye-for-an-eye!

A journalist asked today to the French foreign minister the following question:

Recalled:
For several weeks (I believe a month) there’s been no suicidal bombers in
Israel, while during that period many Palestinians were killed. Many were reported to be terror sympathizers (no proof of that) but many were women and children. And while innocent Palestinians were kill, you did not expressed condemnation as you expressed today.

It made me realized something that we frequently overlooked. It isn’t fair

Jews propagate the “an eye for an eye” mentality, if that is their true general mentality why are they wishing to one day own the land that was never theirs?
:m:

 

Israelis are collectively more isolated militarily and psychologically, and one might even (counter-productively) argue morally. That is why through the whole process, the Israelis will drag their feet in paranoia. IMHO the next sane US administration should turn the tap of military aid to Israel off whenever reprisals or refusal to negotiate occurs. Ultimately, Israel must earn her rightful place in the Middle East, must earn the acceptance and respect of her neighbors, and must stop holding the land and reaping the hate with a fortress and revenge mentality... or she will surely die.

 

Oh fishman you are indeed "Goofy!"

I would say that the Palestinian's had behaved like choirboys for 62 consecutive days while the IDF thugs were continuing the carnage at Ramallah, Jenin and Rufah, and as a result, the IDF killers were up to their bootstraps in Palestinian blood. 72 Palestinian's having been murdered and over 1,500 maimed and/or displaced from their demolished homes by Israel's IDF "hero's" since February 10th, while the J/Rats simultaneously were enjoying the two month "lull" in Palestinian CRUISE BOMBER activity.

So what choice did the Palys have but to take out a few Zionist trespassers in Haifa, with a mixture of 2 kgs. of dynamite, 1 kg. of penny nails and a pinch of rat poison ( how appropriate, huh?

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), a regular poor man's "Flechette" tank round, huh fishman? ).

Of course, the shameless Bush administration was quick to condemn todays early morning bus bombing as Israel continued its use of US supplied Hellfire/TOW antitank missiles to kill more and more Palestinian civilians--last week a pregnant Palestinian woman died as a result of the IDF thugs demolishing a neighbors house. In another IDF "incident" a 75 year old Palestinian elder was shot dead by the IDF as he rode his donkey in a restricted area.---restricted to Jews, that is.

Well folks--you've heard about Armageddon, huh? And of course the fundamentalist Christians who see God coming down to earth and the tribulation elevator taking up all those ahhh-so loyal self annoited, self sacrificing Christain goyim's up to heaven. Indeed, if I know God as I think I do--he will send them ZioNazi "cabrones" and their fundamentalist Christian zealot supporters, "all to hell!

TheAZCowBoy,

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Spookz,
Daniel Pipes is not a valid source for information on the middle east. He's an extreme-right-wing bigot who's opinions should be considered as valid as anyone else who fits that description.
http://www.hatewatchers.org/pipes/history.htm

The killing of innocent people is never justified, however the Palestinians have every right to fight back against Israeli apartheid, terorrism, and oppression.
Its not surprising that they resort to terorrism given the overwhelming power of the US supported Israeli army.
How can Palestinian terorrism be stopped? End the apartheid state, and oppression of the Palestinian people, guarantee a right of return for palestinian refugees, and abandon the notion of a Jewish state.

 

I think one of many initial steps towards peace between Israel and Palestine is Israel (and the rest of the world) recognizing terrorism as a legitimate form of warfare (as legitimate as any other form). As long as we have terrorism labeled as “evil” and the missile bombing of civilians as “collateral damage”, there is no chance of peace.
I believe that both Israel and Palestine should have each their own independent state and each be allowed to develop economically and most importantly, militarily. Terrorism will end and diplomacy will begin when (and if) Palestine becomes militarily armed.

 

Diplomacy will only begin when the fighting stops.

 

Wrong again hypewaders!

TAC responds: Diplomacy will come when the 800 lb. gorrilla gets kicked in the teeth again--and is brought down kicking and screaming to the reality--that, "You cannot negotiate peace while arming the LIKUDNIK thugs on one side and disarming the Arab's on the other."

Of course, this will be preceeded with Zionist Israel looking up and seeing a 100 nuclear tipped Iranian Al-Sabah IRBM "Shoah" coming in from the stratosphere at mach 20 to settle this land, water and borders biblical dispute--once and for all, 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, Zero!

"KA-BOOO(nuclear)OOOOOOO(mushroom)OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!"

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Of-course, by then diplomacy will be too late and the LIKUDNIK thugs will only have enough time to bend over and kiss their arses GOOD-BYE!

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And what about the decent peace loving Jews? Hum, I guess they'll have to do like the US Marines said and did to the 3,000,000 massacred innocent civilian's in Vietnam: "Kill 'em all and let God sort them out!"

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Oh My!

TheAZCowBoy

 

Even if what you say is true, Cowboy,

Diplomacy will only begin when the fighting stops.

 

Isarelis didn't waste any time to avange!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030306/170/3fs2r.html&e=16&ncid=708

 

yes, of course fighting must stop before diplomacy can start. But diplomacy must be backed up with arms. The more evenly matched they are, the better the chance for peace. An arms race would happen peacefully. “With great power comes great responsibility” -- or at least just the illusion of responsibility. Eventually they too will be massacring millions (in non-armed countries) using “diplomatic” means.

Maybe the only way there will be peace on Earth is if every single nation is armed with exactly the same number of nuclear bombs

 

I think that when the fighting stops more then diplomacy, its reconciliation.
And if the killings and excessive use of forced was backup by illegitimate and corrupted grounds. The killing will never stop; it will just pause dormant for a while.

 

The palestine Israeli conflict has no political solution for separate states. The two sides are very unmatched on all levels that their coexistance side by side is not possible.

It's actually not fair to place those two side by side. I for one think that the palestenians should submit to Israel rule and live under Israeli protection. One state for the palestenian and jews. Palestanian need to forget all the hate, the case, ect. The palestenian should do what the blacks did in the US. Work hard for their rights from inside the system as citizens, not as rebels who wants their own state. One day they'll find their place in the society and even become influencial. If the blacks in the US would have said we want our own state, all hell would have broke loose.

I have talked to many palestenians and they all share a common theme. They are not practical. They would never consider a long term solution. They want the jews to drown in the sea now....They are not to be trusted. No solution except the total destruction of Israel is acceptable to them. Palestenians seem to think that their dreams will come true one day with their current mental state. The palestenian mental state has became suicidal from obsessing over having a state of their own. They forgot how to live, the Israeli mental state on the other hand is practical, a bit evil and protective of self interests, but who isn't. Palestenians will not move a step forward until their mental state changes, stop hating the jews, and decide to play real ball with Israel.

 

I have to say, these statements are ignorant, racist and just plain stupid.

(gofyfish, I’m not personally insulting the person but criticizing his stupid post.)

 

dsdsds concludes..... correctly, I might add.