Most Pakistanis want Islam to play a larger role in Pakistani society. However, a majority also favors a more democratic political system, rejects ‘Talibanization,” and supports recent government efforts to reform the madrassah system by focusing more on science and mathematics. Majorities have little sympathy for Islamist military groups and most would like to see the Federally Administered Tribal Areas integrated into Pakistan.

The survey also found that Pakistani attitudes toward the United States are negative and that there is a growing perception that the United States is hostile toward Islam....

Interestingly, among the 60 percent who support a larger role for Shari’a larger role in the Pakistani legal system, nearly two out of three (64%) give the importance of democracy a 10—considerably higher than among those who do not favor more Shari’a....

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/440.php?lb=hmpg1&pnt=440&nid=&id

Interesting. Unfortunately some of the most corrupt, US supported leaders, have been elected. Come on Pakis, kick them out!

there is a growing perception that the United States is hostile toward Islam.

How did they figure that out? What, do Pakistanis read Sciforums boards now?

Pakistan needs a revolution. With the way things are going, it seems inevitable. I can only pray the right people come out on top.

Do the right people rarely come out on top.

How did they figure that out? What, do Pakistanis read Sciforums boards now?

:D:D:D

Honstly, nobody cares about what people think in a small forum on the internet somewhere. The Pakistanis, along with a host of other countries, Muslim and Christian and other religions, do not trust the US because of its foreign policies which dictate their domestic policies. But the interesting thing from that survey was that the people who did not want Sharia Law did not want Democracy either whereas those who wanted Sharia Law wanted Democracy. Clearly Muslims dont see them as incompatible.

Pakistan needs to get rid of the Jemaa Islami and this whole bullshit started by Maududi. It needs to reverse the decisions it took against the Ahmadis which started Pakistan on this decline towards destruction.

I wonder if anyone asked the Indian Muslims about America...

Pakistan needs a revolution. With the way things are going, it seems inevitable. I can only pray the right people come out on top.

Which people would that be?

But the interesting thing from that survey was that the people who did not want Sharia Law did not want Democracy either whereas those who wanted Sharia Law wanted Democracy. Clearly Muslims dont see them as incompatible. We wish them luck.

Apparently they don't see what they have now as democracy either, which is interesting after all the recent attention to the elections.

So what general sorts of sharia law are they talking about, here - seeing as how they vary, probably from group to group within Pakistan itself ? Local base, kind of like States' Rights in the US ?

We wish them luck.

Apparently they don't see what they have now as democracy either, which is interesting after all the recent attention to the elections.

So what general sorts of sharia law are they talking about, here - seeing as how they vary, probably from group to group within Pakistan itself ? Local base, kind of like States' Rights in the US ?

Its clear they disapprove of Talibanism so thats not what they want. But the fact of the matter is that Muslims themselves dont see any incomaptibility between Sharia and Democracy. Believe it or not Sharia is a combination between Democracy, Socialism and many other types of rule. Muslims know that. Unfortunately, the US and other countries continue to support bullies and dictators like the house of saud which violently puts down any attempt to bring Sharia law as stated in the Quran. They let dogs in the Great Mosque ffs! Theyd rather have the version they invented so they can stay in power.

We need more collaboration between these (http://indianmuslims.in/) guys and these (http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/) guys. ;) :D

And also, people like this (http://eteraz.wordpress.com/) and this (http://towelian.wordpress.com/).

I'm not sure Pakistan really has what it takes. Maybe, but I don't think so. The country is full of poor, superstitious illiterate people prone towards violence. Pakistan people migrate to other countries, where they have every opportunity in the world, and many form ghettos remain poor, superstitious, poorly educated and prone towards violence.

Then we have India. Also full of poor, superstitious illiterate people - but I don't view Indian people as being prone to violence. They come to Western and Eastern countries work hard, make the most of the opportunities available, are educated and prone to becoming successful.

It's like two side of the same coin.

My official advice - IF you should have to see a physician in AU and you are given the opportunity to see either an Indian trained MD or an AU trained MD - SEE THE INDIAN. That advice might just save you arse. I've work with Indian MDs at Uni and for most of the time (not all but 80%) they have as much general knowledge as AU specialist. It's really amazing. Walking wikipedias. Very professional too.

RE: Pakistan, Maybe Democracy isn't the best solution for Pakistan? Perhaps a fundamental Islamic Republic run under Shia Law with an King and Ayatollah would better suite them? I'm coming around to the idea that people have the governments that they desire and have them for a reason.

Democracy just isn't for everyone,
Just my opinion,
Michael

I think youre mistaken about the literacy levels. While people are poor, there is still a high level of literacy.

Youre also mistaken about Pakistanis being prone to violence. I would like to know where you base that on btw

I think youre mistaken about the literacy levels. While people are poor, there is still a high level of literacy.

Try doing your homework. One in three males and two in three females are illiterate in Pakistan.

Youre also mistaken about Pakistanis being prone to violence. I would like to know where you base that on btw

You must have conveniently forgotten about this:

"Three people, including a young boy, were killed as tens of thousands demonstrated in Pakistani cities on Wednesday, the third consecutive day of violent demonstrations in the country against cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad."

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/15/cartoons-pakistan-violence.html

Try doing your homework. One in three males and two in three females are illiterate in Pakistan.

Having family there I know some stuff you dont.

You must have conveniently forgotten about this:

"Three people, including a young boy, were killed as tens of thousands demonstrated in Pakistani cities on Wednesday, the third consecutive day of violent demonstrations in the country against cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad."

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/15/cartoons-pakistan-violence.html

Wow, tens of thousands of people demonstrating and 3 people dying. How many died from bingedrinking or drinking related events in the UK when that was happening :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Having family there I know some stuff you dont.

So what?

Wow, tens of thousands of people demonstrating and 3 people dying.

Violence over a cartoon from the religion of peace.

So what?

:rolleyes:

Violence over a cartoon from the religion of peace.

Demonstrations took place worldwide. Not a lot of violence happened. In the areas where it did happen it was a small group of people doing the actual violent acts. The so called "rent-a-mobs". Most people were just holding up signs and shouting, as is normal in demonstrations.

Demonstrations took place worldwide. Not a lot of violence happened. In the areas where it did happen it was a small group of people doing the actual violent acts. The so called "rent-a-mobs". Most people were just holding up signs and shouting, as is normal in demonstrations.

You can deny all you want and create fabrications. The facts speak for themselves. :D

You can deny all you want and create fabrications. The facts speak for themselves. :D

How many violent acts took place by how many demonstrators in the worldwide demonstrations? How many people were killed or violent acts committed not related to the cartoons at that time in the world? Im asking you so I dont have to create fabrications... :rolleyes:

How many violent acts took place by how many demonstrators in the worldwide demonstrations? How many people were killed or violent acts committed not related to the cartoons at that time in the world?

Does that ease your guilt or help you to justify the violence your religion promotes?

I think youre mistaken about the literacy levels. While people are poor, there is still a high level of literacy.

Youre also mistaken about Pakistanis being prone to violence. I would like to know where you base that on btwI'm sure you can find the facts about the literacy levels. Maybe most Pakistanis are not prone towards violence but relative to other nations the relatively few that are, are a lot more. Make sense?


Does Pakistan have much in way of resources? As I understood the people with the resources live in the Western section of Pakistan and they want to be a separate country. They aren't even reaping their own lands resources. Two, the north of the country is filled with village idiots. Three, Pakistan isn't on all that friendly terms with many of its neighbors. Even Iran was talking about bypassing Pakistan and sending a gas pipeline under water over to India. That sort of tells you something doesn't it?

On top of all of this there are hundreds of millions of people and the population is going to have hundreds more millions. We're in a world wide crunch on free energy. Even food now is being turned into energy. Is that a receipt for success?

Ask yourself this. What would it take to make Pakistani people work like Japanese or Singaporeans or Taiwanese or Honkongese or South Koreans? I'm talking get up at 6AM work to 10PM 7 days a week 340+ days a year. Because that's what it takes to make a successful democracy. Pure dedicated commitment. I just don't think people in Pakistan have it. And at a time right now in the world might be the last chance at getting it. Energy is disappearing. The land is over populated and polluted. The USA for all it's faults is probably giving up totally on "spreading democracy" and the new world order could just as easily be set by the Chinese model. At least in Asia. The West will continue with along on our way.

Michael

Take a look at this site. While Pakistan wasn't measured just take a look at India. Now, unless I am wrong, I'd guess Pakistan is at least equal with India.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders&b_map=1


Also, perhaps anecdotal, I seem to see Pakistan or Pakistani people in the News on a daily bases when it comes to serious crimes. Either a PM is blown to bits or a pack-rape is taking place or some idiot is blowing up something in England etc... one would think Pakistan were in a war not Afghanistan there's so many killings associated with the place.

I'm not suggesting that Pakistan can't become a successful democracy or that I would like to see the people fail at such an endeavor - I just don't think it'll happen. Look at how difficult it is to maintain a secular democracy in the USA. People naturally want a "Father" or "Dear Leader" or "Prophet" to tell them what to think - that's easier than getting off one's arse and thinking. ALSO I am now coming to the conclusion that natural resources, national identity, work ethos, education level and level of religiousness all play a part. The USA was about 40% atheist (or at best deist) when the constitution was founded. There's a host of things. ALSO, I think that there is a population crisis in that area of the world as well as a world wide energy crises.

Could happen but not probable.

Out of curiosity: What's more important to you (A) security, money and stability or (B) secular/non-religious democracy?

Strange how the military dictators keep getting replaced by elected parliaments.

Of course, now that the US is taking a "deep" interest, Musharraf may not need to worry much.

One can always depend on the US to ensure prolonged dictatorship in a country, followed by destabilisation and "liberation"

Michael,

This is a question you may be very familiar with: what the hell are you going on about? Pakistanis have all the motivation, knowledge, passion, and tools required to establish a democratic society which simultaneously implements Islamic ideals to non-rigid, balanced proportions. The biggest obstacle to reaching this objective is, of course, something completely beyond their control - foreign influences. The U.S. has made it crystal clear that it's satisfied with the Musharraf regime, and considers the current military dictatorship as an invaluable "ally". Tell me, with the world's unparalleled superpower supporting your military rule wholeheartedly, what hope is left for the face of democracy in Pakistan?

You may think this entire ordeal is as simple to solve as saying, "the Pakistanis are tribal and unintelligent" (more or less). This couldn't be further from the truth. The political assassinations you talk about don't reflect the morals and judgement of the country's Pakistanis - it reflects the actions and decisions of those who perpetrate them, which is almost entirely a blame credited to the U.S.-backed Musharraf regime. The overwhelming majority (in excess of 90%) of Pakistanis reject Musharraf's rule, which naturally means something significant is going to happen in the foreseeable future. The majority of Pakistanis want democracy, and the majority of them also value their Muslim upbringing, and wish to incorporate both the religious aspects of their life and the democratic aspects of a successful nation into their country. You can blame it on different factions and ideologies within the country, but that would simply be deceitful. Pakistanis are on the same page when it comes to how they envision their nation being run - the problem is their opposition won't allow these visions to be enshrined in the nation's constitution. The only challenge to their potential democracy is the military in power, and the even bigger military supporting it. I do believe that the Pakistanis are better than what you would have us to believe - make no doubt about that. They've had absolutely marvelous leaders in the past, and have proven a democratic, Islamic system can be established.

Kardark,

While I don't blame you for taking offense at Michael stating that Pakistan isn't ready to earn it, you do the Paki's a disservice by blaming an external power for their problems. At some point a nation must say that it is not just a puppet of anybody, and you seem to disregard Pakistani national pride in your rant.

Give them a little more credit. I know it's easy and convenient to blame your problems on an outside entity, but ultimately that never solves anything. Pakistan is indeed at a crossroads, and no doubt Western influence will play a part in the direction they head as a nation, but let's be realistic about outside influences. Pakistan has internal problems that are far beyond the scope of anything the U.S. influence may have affected.

5 billion dollars (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14026.html) in aid against War On Terror.

Musharraf can get a lot of mileage from that.

750 million (http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2008/01/30/us_aims_to_turn_hostile_pakistani_tribes_friendly/)still in the offing, along with arms training and weapons for 400 tribal groups (otherwise known as insurgents)

15ofthe19,

Why should they refrain from blaming an entity which is responsible for a major portion of that region's problems? With all the military support and aid Musharraf has been receiving from the U.S., it's nearly impossible to envision any civilian cavalry overthrowing this firmly established military rule. Every time an uprising occurs, a brutal martial law is established. Until Musharraf no longer receives support from the outside, and his resources inside run dry, the Pakistanis have a slim chance of reforming how Pakistan is run. I will certainly admit that the Western influences are not the sole contributors to Pakistan's overall (internally and externally) problems. However, the first step to resolving issues at home is to make sure there are no non-Pakistani factors in the equation.

Michael,

This is a question you may be very familiar with: what the hell are you going on about? :D hehe...

Pakistanis have all the motivation, knowledge, passion, and tools required to establish a democratic society which simultaneously implements Islamic ideals to non-rigid, balanced proportions.Firstly, Pakistan does have a functioning government. Supposedly this is a democracy. Now, didn't they just have elections? You proposal of Religious Democracy is exactly what Iran has implemented and it simply doesn't work well. It works - just not all that good. Luckily for Iran they have mega oil and gas - but Pakistan doesn't have such good fortunes.

The U.S. has made it crystal clear that it's satisfied with the Musharraf regime, and considers the current military dictatorship as an invaluable "ally". Tell me, with the world's unparalleled superpower supporting your military rule wholeheartedly, what hope is left for the face of democracy in Pakistan?Ask the Indians - they were in the EXACT same predicament with the English. Remember?

I do believe that the Pakistanis are better than what you would have us to believe - make no doubt about that. They've had absolutely marvelous leaders in the past, and have proven a democratic, Islamic system can be established.I suppose we'll have to wait and see.


But, I don't know Kadark, do you really truly think Pakistan can become a first world nation - equal to Japan or South Korea? Really, you think that the people have that much work ethics and drive?

Michael

PS: I also noted that India's population is overwhelmingly poor and highly uneducated - but, I think India is really pushing forward. Plus, I know a lot of Indian's here in AU and every single one of them is very successful. I never ever read anything in the local paper negative about Indians. The two people were the same nation just 50 years ago - so what gives with Pakistan?

Kadark,

As far as I know Pakistan has never done well - since the day it was founded. I don't think it's fair to say the USA is responsible for 2 generations worth of wasted time and energy. What next - the USA was responsible for Pakistan's hero selling nuclear secrets to that f*ck face Kim Jun Il AS he was STARVING to DEATH 3 MILLION North Koreans.

What kind of "National Hero" helps out one of Histories worse despots - by giving him Nuclear technology?!?!

I think Pakistan has had ample time to do something if they were going to do it,
Michael

I'm sure you can find the facts about the literacy levels. Maybe most Pakistanis are not prone towards violence but relative to other nations the relatively few that are, are a lot more. Make sense


No sense at all. You have a habit of just talking for the sake of it (no substance), this is not the first time I have seen this from you.

Does Pakistan have much in way of resources?


What has that got to do with anything?

And yes, Pakistan has a lot of natural resources.

As I understood the people with the resources live in the Western section of Pakistan and they want to be a separate country. They aren't even reaping their own lands resources.


If you had any idea about what you were talking about you would realise that illiteracy is highest in those regions. And those regions are influenced by warlords, warlords not motivated by religion, but by pride and greed. These are people that keep their own people uneducated in order to control them e.g. Bugti

Two, the north of the country is filled with village idiots.


Very scientific...

Three, Pakistan isn't on all that friendly terms with many of its neighbors. Even Iran was talking about bypassing Pakistan and sending a gas pipeline under water over to India. That sort of tells you something doesn't it?


Tells us what? Seriously, you say things without actually saying anything. Who is Pakistan unfriendly with? Pakistan is hostile to those that are hostile to Pakistan e.g. India, Russia, the US, Israel etc. Pakistan has had a close relationship with the important players, including China.

On top of all of this there are hundreds of millions of people and the population is going to have hundreds more millions. We're in a world wide crunch on free energy. Even food now is being turned into energy. Is that a receipt for success?


The population is currently at about 150 million (will have to double check), how the hell is Pakistan going to have hundreds more millions?

Ask yourself this. What would it take to make Pakistani people work like Japanese or Singaporeans or Taiwanese or Honkongese or South Koreans? I'm talking get up at 6AM work to 10PM 7 days a week 340+ days a year.


Meaningless generalisation.

Because that's what it takes to make a successful democracy


No it doesn’t.

Pure dedicated commitment. I just don't think people in Pakistan have it.


Another meaningless statement.

And at a time right now in the world might be the last chance at getting it. Energy is disappearing. The land is over populated and polluted. The USA for all it's faults is probably giving up totally on "spreading democracy" and the new world order could just as easily be set by the Chinese model. At least in Asia. The West will continue with along on our way.


Your post to me exemplifies just how this whole forum has gone to shit.

Can you see why it is hard to take your post seriously? A lot of emotion and ignorance.

Ask yourself this. What would it take to make Pakistani people work like Japanese or Singaporeans or Taiwanese or Honkongese or South Koreans? I'm talking get up at 6AM work to 10PM 7 days a week 340+ days a year. Because that's what it takes to make a successful democracy. Pure dedicated commitment. I just don't think people in Pakistan have it. And at a time right now in the world might be the last chance at getting it. Energy is disappearing. The land is over populated and polluted. The USA for all it's faults is probably giving up totally on "spreading democracy" and the new world order could just as easily be set by the Chinese model. At least in Asia. The West will continue with along on our way.

Michael

dear michael

i hope all is well with you.

i dont know about the pakistani's living in pakistan but the odler generation pakisatni who came to England in the 60's/70's work tremndously hard and did exactly the hours you describe above.

in the Uk the local corner shop or high street news agent is called the "paki shop" (not by everyone of course but thats like slang nowadays)and the phrase best associated it with it was "oh why dont you go down the paki shop they are bound to be open" In other words the newsagents were run by pakisatni's and they were always open.. the original english shop keepers hated it cos they didnt want to open there shops first thing in the mornign and close late at night, and thus soaw a staedy decline in English run news agents and stuff.

take care
zak

As an indian i think pakistanies are very extreme in many way of living. The way they treat women in rural area is quite shocking.

As an indian i think pakistanies are very extreme in many way of living. The way they treat women in rural area is quite shocking.

how do they treat women in "remote rural areas"of india
then sagatr


oh and welcome to sciforums btw

I always find it amusing when nations like Pakistan mention that they want to become an "Islamic" Democracy. I remember Musharraf specifically mentioning this a few years ago when Western journalist criticized his government.
Israel has learned recently how hard it is to sustain a true democracy and also a religious state. A true democracy will allow the voters to elect whom they wish, and if a population grows who may not be following the majority religion, that state religion can change. In Israel, for instance, as the Palestinian population grows,will lose its identity as a "Jewish" state, if they truly want to sustain a real democracy. Palestinians continue to gain more of a foothold in that government.
Iran, who is far from a true democracy, has rules in place to prevent any growth of another religion. It specifically has set aside only a few government positions for non-Muslims, and the rest are left for those followers of Islam. This ensures that Islamic state continues without threat of another religion.
The Pakistani people cannot truly believe that it can increase sharia law and still maintain a real democracy. Democracy means giving all groups equal voting rights the same opportunity. This cannot happen under sharia law, hence no true Democracy. It is a ridiculous notion.

Ask yourself this. What would it take to make Pakistani people work like Japanese or Singaporeans or Taiwanese or Honkongese or South Koreans? I'm talking get up at 6AM work to 10PM 7 days a week 340+ days a year. Because that's what it takes to make a successful democracy. Pure dedicated commitment. I just don't think people in Pakistan have it.

How can you say they dont work hard at whatever job they have? Have you been there? Have you shadowed a person who is working there? What is your source?

Take a look at this site. While Pakistan wasn't measured just take a look at India. Now, unless I am wrong, I'd guess Pakistan is at least equal with India.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders&b_map=1


Also, perhaps anecdotal, I seem to see Pakistan or Pakistani people in the News on a daily bases when it comes to serious crimes. Either a PM is blown to bits or a pack-rape is taking place or some idiot is blowing up something in England etc... one would think Pakistan were in a war not Afghanistan there's so many killings associated with the place.

Meh, murders are not representative of how violent a people are. Lets face it, youll get less higher numbers in Switzerland than in Russia. Why? Russia is x times bigger than Switzerland. Also, how many rapes take place in the UK or the USA? Some idiot blowing something up in England? That was ages ago and we have put it behind us. We dont keep reminding ourselves that we are dealing with people who want o supposedly kill all of us just cos they dont like our religion :rolleyes: Were progressive that way :cool:

in the Uk the local corner shop or high street news agent is called the "paki shop" (not by everyone of course but thats like slang nowadays)and the phrase best associated it with it was "oh why dont you go down the paki shop they are bound to be open" In other words the newsagents were run by pakisatni's and they were always open.. the original english shop keepers hated it cos they didnt want to open there shops first thing in the mornign and close late at night, and thus soaw a staedy decline in English run news agents and stuff.This makes sense as those people who had the gump to migrate over to England would of course be hard working dedicated motivated individual.

I don't think people like that are typical of the common populace.

BUT, why is it that Pakistani people don't appear to be homogenizing into the English culture?

I wonder - is it very common for Pakistani people to marry non-Muslims? Do they often go out and hang out with English blocks for a night on the piss? Watch the footy in the pub and all that?

The reason I ask is because I know sooooo soooo soooo many Indian guy and girls (actually more girls ;) that fit in perfectly with Aussie culture. Many are married to Aussies and English and there seems to be a mutual sort of respect. I just went to an Armenian-Indian wedding a couple months ago. The thing is, I never see an Pakistani people unless they are on the news due to heinous crime or another (and some were so freaken heinous it's make you sick to you stomach). Why?

What gives?

What has that got to do with anything? Because it can help define the mentality of the nation. Japanese have little – they work hard. KSA have a lot – they don’t.

WIf you had any idea about what you were talking about you would realise that illiteracy is highest in those regions. And those regions are influenced by warlords, warlords not motivated by religion, but by pride and greed. These are people that keep their own people uneducated in order to control them e.g. BugtiThey WANT the people their uneducated? That seems a little extreme. The last time I saw an interview the person simply wanted the Pakistani’s living in the cities to stop stealing the natural resources in the land his people have lived on for the last 1000 years.

What do you think about that?

Is the land theirs? What of it’s resources?

No it doesn’t.
yes it does.
:)

No sense at all. You have a habit of just talking for the sake of it (no substance), this is not the first time I have seen this from you.I've pretty much given up on most intellectual searches and postings because I found it really doesn't matter. I understand why Murdoch panders to the right - because people want to hear and read what they think is true.

You know, I used to spend some time making a case, in a logical manner, but what I found is it's a big waste of time. People don't follow any sort of debate style and when the argument is made they simply refuse to continue and then it starts over in another thread.

Michael

Arsalan,

If you were to compare India with Pakistan - what sort differences and similarity's come to mind? IN general.

Michael

What gives?

A lot of Pakistanis are closely related to their Southern European conterpart...so they should be more adaptable. It is that religion AND culture holding them back.

I know a Pakistani married to a redhead and an Iranian married to a blonde girl. They seem to be doing OK. But another white girl married to a Turk did not last a year. I have an Iranian friend who said, never marry a Turk male. One Indian friend married a Swede...and doing very well.

Looks like it all depends on how people are raised in families and their society...

Meh, murders are not representative of how violent a people are. Lets face it, youll get less higher numbers in Switzerland than in Russia. Why? Russia is x times bigger than Switzerland.

The infant mind might jump to the same conclusion, until they learn the concept of "per capita."

Also, how many rapes take place in the UK or the USA? Some idiot blowing something up in England? That was ages ago and we have put it behind us. We dont keep reminding ourselves that we are dealing with people who want o supposedly kill all of us just cos they dont like our religion Were progressive that way

You see, Muslims have preconceptions. Islam gives Muslims the freedom to prescribe war whenever they feel persecuted. It is these circumstances when Muslims act on their preconceptions that makes Islam a violent religion.

The infant mind might jump to the same conclusion, until they learn the concept of "per capita."



You see, Muslims have preconceptions. Islam gives Muslims the freedom to prescribe war whenever they feel persecuted. It is these circumstances when Muslims act on their preconceptions that makes Islam a violent religion.

What do you think about the fact that Pakistanis elect democratic candidates, including women, while the US only supports the military dictators who take power in Paksitan through coups? Providing them with money and arms to sustain their rule?

What do you think about the fact that Pakistanis elect democratic candidates, including women, while the US only supports the military dictators who take power in Paksitan through coups? Providing them with money and arms to sustain their rule?

Exactly what I said above, you have "preconceptions."

Exactly what I said above, you have "preconceptions."

I just had a preconception that the 5 billion given to Musharraf will keep him in power indefinitely. If not, the 750 million in arms and training to local warlords will keep conflict going long enough to give Musharraf an excuse to use military power to crackdown on the people.

Wow you're right!:eek:

What do you think about the fact that Pakistanis elect democratic candidates, including women, while the US only supports the military dictators who take power in Paksitan through coups? Providing them with money and arms to sustain their rule? I think it goes a long way toward explaining how Pakistanis come to view a greater role for Islam and more democratic government as compatible and mutually supportive goals.

Good luck to them. Becoming the mould image of the monster you fight is just another way of becoming a monster, after all.

(one of the great misfortunes of my ancestral history was the reaction of the Irish to the 800 year English effort to beat Catholicism out of them - they clung to Catholicism, rejecting the intellectual and economic changes of the New World discoveries, rejecting the Scottish Enlightenment, embracing Fascism and all manner of self-inflicted intellectual and political blight. How similar is that to the Muslim reactions to the Crusades ? )

I think it goes a long way toward explaining how Pakistanis come to view a greater role for Islam and more democratic government as compatible and mutually supportive goals.

Good luck to them. Becoming the mould image of the monster you fight is just another way of becoming a monster, after all.

(one of the great misfortunes of my ancestral history was the reaction of the Irish to the 800 year English effort to beat Catholicism out of them - they clung to Catholicism, rejecting the intellectual and economic changes of the New World discoveries, rejecting the Scottish Enlightenment, embracing Fascism and all manner of self-inflicted intellectual and political blight. How similar is that to the Muslim reactions to the Crusades ? )

Depends on which Muslims you refer to. The creation of Pakistan itself was very damaging to the psyche of Indian Muslims. There is an excellent old Indian movie called Garam Hava, which shows how loyalties hold very little water in the face of social upheaval.

http://www.1worldfilms.com/India/garamhava.htm

I just had a preconception that the 5 billion given to Musharraf will keep him in power indefinitely. If not, the 750 million in arms and training to local warlords will keep conflict going long enough to give Musharraf an excuse to use military power to crackdown on the people.OK then, lets see what happens next.

I am 100% sure that Bush is pissed off Musharraf was not reelected in a landslide - I mean, how could this be, all the people in the Bush Bubble were soooo sure he would :)

So, lets sit back and test the theory.
A) SAM is right and the USA will do anything it can to maintain it's octopus grip on the world and it's people - exemplified in Musharraf

OR

B) The people PRESENTLY running the USA are like Hyenia they'll take a kill from the weak - BUT that's about it. No CT, no world domination and if MushY is out he's out by the USA.

(this means he still may make a power grab BUT not get support from the USA)

Michael

OK then, lets see what happens next.

I am 100% sure that Bush is pissed off Musharraf was not reelected in a landslide - I mean, how could this be, all the people in the Bush Bubble were soooo sure he would :)

So, lets sit back and test the theory.
A) SAM is right and the USA will do anything it can to maintain it's octopus grip on the world and it's people - exemplified in Musharraf

OR

B) The people PRESENTLY running the USA are like Hyenia they'll take a kill from the weak - BUT that's about it. No CT, no world domination and if MushY is out he's out by the USA.

(this means he still may make a power grab BUT not get support from the USA)

Michael

Like Afghanistan?

Anyway update on Pakistan:

Here comes the new boss, etc

Asif Ali Zardari, the widower of slain opposition leader Benazir Bhutto, and former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, the man ousted by Musharraf in a coup eight years ago, announced their pact after talks at a hill station in the foothills of the Himalayas.

"The coalition partners are ready to form the govt," Sharif said at a news conference, reading from an agreed statement with Zardari at his side.



http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/09/asia/AS-GEN-Pakistan.php

This makes sense as those people who had the gump to migrate over to England would of course be hard working dedicated motivated individual.
Who had the opportunity, yes. You seem to be implying that Pakistanis are lazy people who can’t be arsed to do anything. Have you ever been to Pakistan? Ever shadowed a Pakistani worker to see what he does all day long? Stop spouting out this nonsensical garbage bordering on racism.
BUT, why is it that Pakistani people don't appear to be homogenizing into the English culture?
Like what? Going to discoes? Late night binge drinking parties? If thats what youre saying then no, Most Muslim Pakistanis will refrain from those actions.
I wonder - is it very common for Pakistani people to marry non-Muslims? Do they often go out and hang out with English blocks for a night on the piss? Watch the footy in the pub and all that?
Not every Pakistani is Muslim you know. And who cares whether they marry people who are religious non religious? That doesn’t mean anything. And going out for a night on the piss? The same nights out which are increasingly becoming more violent and causing more public damage than before? Which the English public is starting to hate? I don’t think most Pakistanis do that kind of stuff. You will find most Pakistanis here in the universities or working and providing for their families.
The reason I ask is because I know sooooo soooo soooo many Indian guy and girls (actually more girls ;) that fit in perfectly with Aussie culture. Many are married to Aussies and English and there seems to be a mutual sort of respect. I just went to an Armenian-Indian wedding a couple months ago. The thing is, I never see an Pakistani people unless they are on the news due to heinous crime or another (and some were so freaken heinous it's make you sick to you stomach). Why?
Maybe you should ask the media why? After all, I’ve never seen a Buddhist apart from the violent monks in Myanmar but have seen Pakistanis here studying, working and paying their taxes. What does that mean? And I see many non-Pakistanis in the news due to heinous crimes as well. As I do Indians. And Armenians. And men and women... You get the idea? The picture you get from the media, especially when it relates to Islam, is never complete or almost never positive.

The infant mind might jump to the same conclusion, until they learn the concept of "per capita."
If you had clicked on the link you would see it is the link to the “Totals” section and not the “Per Capita” section. I am well aware of the difference between per capita and totals. But if you insist on going per capita then Colombia is number 1 and India number 26, a couple of numbers behind the US. Quite a difference from the total number where India was number 1. So yeah, in the future, think before you write. A little research can go a long way to preventing you from embarrassing yourself. Although, Im starting to think its your fetish...
You see, Muslims have preconceptions. Islam gives Muslims the freedom to prescribe war whenever they feel persecuted. It is these circumstances when Muslims act on their preconceptions that makes Islam a violent religion.
And yet, you have completely failed to provide me with any proof of your theory. You have not provided me with any proof where Muslims say they are doing what they are doing because they are being persecuted/ethnically cleansed and then you have not gone and shown them to be wrong in their assumptions. This hollow claim of yours is pretty explanatory of the lack of understanding you seem to have about the law and self-defense. By your rationale, the law of every country and international and universal law is violent because it permits selfdefense. If you cannot see the utter absurdity of your statement then I fear theres no hope for you