Many people have different beliefs as to where UFOs come from. There are many different beliefs on this subject and I thought it would be a fun to discuss/debate.... however I very much discourage arguing, it usually kills threads.

So speak up and tell us your beliefs about the origin of UFOs and we shall critique one another. *drinks of his wine goblet and slams his fist on the table* "Let the debate begin!!"

Now people, you've spoke in the poll, state it out in your own words! *tries to motivate*

Then I shall put in my own statement: I think they are man-made electrical machines invented by Nikola Tesla.

A bit of everythig, but mainly choice 1

Like Star_One says.

People with vivid imaginations came up with them.

People with mental disorders saw them.

People with distorted vision have seen them.

People like Star_One and chainsy propogate the myth of aliens in saucers (tea, anyone?)... anyway, cosmic traveler has it pretty much right, but that is not all there is.

Project Mogul

For example, most unidentified flying object sightings that can be attributed to the military were never supported by the military. If they are flying an experimental craft, or using just a helium filled balloon in order to monitor radio transmissions or other lines of communication from enemies, they are not going to come forward and say, "Yes, that scrap metal, albeit a normal piece of metal, like any kind you find on earth, is not ours. It must be aliens ::wink, wink::" The military does not want their enemies to know how they are being watched. This is precisely what happened in Roswell. They found debris. People, with their superstitious nature and lack of ability to reason, immediately assumed it was an extra-terrestrial UFO. Some more intelligent people considered the military doing experiments. So, when the military was asked about it, they denied ever knowing about that "craft" and supported the idiots' claims and not denying it came from outer space. Since then, researchers have found out that there was a balloon that broke and came apart and landed in a field, that had been monitoring Russian communications. The military couldn't let them know, because it was the COLD WAR.*

There is always a better explanation for phenomena, when there is evidence.

*refer to http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html and Skeptic magazine Vol. 10, issue 1

A bit of everything except 1 and 6.

CosmicTraveler took the words right off my keyboard.

I think that it is a mix of the choices. All except 1 and 6 for me. I know a man who went a facility in New Mexico, the place openly admits they have Nikola Tesla's papers. He asked to see them and they said he didn't have clearence. So he went to another government facility and they openly had detailed plans to build the nuclear bomb out to the publice. Then I thought about it, since I believe Nikola Tesla invented the "flying saucer" they kept his papers classified because I think that civilians would be capable of making a saucer, if they/we only had the plans.

Great Book (http://www.wexclub.com/ConspiracyHistory/pages/peal.htm)
/\ Go to that URL for a great book on UFOs! :D

Yeah, I imagine that we're capable of building flying saucers. The misconception that anytime something odd is classified it has to be extraterrestrial is pretty rediculous. I used to firmly believe that aliens had visited us, but as time goes on I'm growing more confident in Man's ability to make some pretty incredible things. And if they are building flying saucers, I see no reason to let the information out to the public.

That’s why we have so much history of flying saucers prior to man even being able to break the sound barrier, let alone fly. Man did it and we didn’t know. LOL

That’s why we have so much history of flying saucers prior to man even being able to break the sound barrier, let alone fly. Man did it and we didn’t know. LOL

I refer you to choices 4 and 5.

Yeah, I imagine that we're capable of building flying saucers. The misconception that anytime something odd is classified it has to be extraterrestrial is pretty rediculous. I used to firmly believe that aliens had visited us, but as time goes on I'm growing more confident in Man's ability to make some pretty incredible things. And if they are building flying saucers, I see no reason to let the information out to the public.

They do let the information out to the public. They didn't talk about balloons and spy equipment because of the Cold War 50 years ago...

http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/ BROWSE/HQ_6.html

All of the above except #6.

It appears by some of the debunkers comments that ignorance is still among us. Project Mogul my ass. That goes beyond ignorance.

Manmade: I did not vote in this poll, because it hardly matters what anyone thinks they are.

The definition of a UFO is that WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. That's the U part. If the neighbourhood kids tie a bunch of cans to a dog's tail and it runs around making a racket, someone may report it as a UFO. Which of the above categories does that fit into?

All of the above except #6.

It appears by some of the debunkers comments that ignorance is still among us.

That is a rediculous statement. You say that ignorance is still among us, yet you say in the line above that UFOs are alien and hallucination, among other things. You have no proof, or reasonable cause to believe that any UFO you or anyone else has seen is of extraterrestrial nature. Until one parks on your lawn and four little grey dudes get out, you cannot base your theory on anything other than all the X-files you watch.

I'm not saying that they aren't alien, I'm just saying that I have no f'n clue what they are, and I'm not about to jump to a conclusion. And trust me, I've seen some weird shit in my lifetime, including two UFO sightings. But am I running around calling them aliens? Hell no I'm not. I wouldn't know if they were Russian, let alone alien!

They do let the information out to the public. They didn't talk about balloons and spy equipment because of the Cold War 50 years ago...


I'm saying that they don't let all of the information out to the public. Just becuase the cold war is over, doesn't mean that they want everybody to know about new weaponry, and/or aircraft. I just don't see why they would. Even if you do have the winning hand in Texas Hold'em, doesn't mean you show your cards when they guy across from you mucks his.

JD

I'm saying that they don't let all of the information out to the public. Just becuase the cold war is over, doesn't mean that they want everybody to know about new weaponry, and/or aircraft. I just don't see why they would. Even if you do have the winning hand in Texas Hold'em, doesn't mean you show your cards when they guy across from you mucks his.
JD

YAY! Well said!

I'm curious: What is the path of logic that says, "I see something in the sky, I cannot identify it, therefore it must be an alien spacecraft."

Many trained fighter jocks say that same thing, What the F was that?

Originally posted by Ellimist

YAY! Well said!

Don't get me wrong, Ellimist. I'm not saying that they're hiding the existance of aliens. I'm not saying that they're hiding a First Contact. I'm just saying that they have no reason--and it might even be dangerous--to release information of cutting-edge weaponry to the public. I don't see how it's in the best interest of the US government, or any government, to show thier hand when they're developing technology.

Think about it like this: If the cigar-shaped, saucer-shaped, or triangle-shaped UFO's really exist, and they just happen to be amazing spy planes...why would they tell anyone about them? Isn't it kind of better to have the world thinking aliens are visiting then the "evil" US of A is watching them?

Originally posted by Chunkylover58

I'm curious: What is the path of logic that says, "I see something in the sky, I cannot identify it, therefore it must be an alien spacecraft."

I don't think it started like that, Chunk. At first fighter pilots thought they were new Nazi fighters. I think the saucer's origins would have stayed Earthly in our imaginations had Roswell not happened. And hey, who's to say that they weren't alien ships? But regardless, Roswell is what made us look past our own governments and into the heavens.

JD

JDawg,

Roswell wasn't even discussed until Jesse Marcel came forward to tell the real story in the early 80's. Sure, it was talked about for week, but when General Ramey layed his weather balloon on the floor of his office, the story died.

Therefor, it wasn't Roswell that peeked the interest. I suggest you do a little research before you begin your next attack.

BTW: I think Ignorance is the perfect term here.

True enough VRob... rather than UFO we might call them FOTNOWWAIO, Flying Objects The Nature Of Which We Are Ignorant Of.

BigBlue,

Very true.

Another ignorance I am finding on this board is the lack of knowledge on the subject. The amount of credible evidence that shows some of the UFO's might very well orignate from outside this planet is staggering. Sadly, most people just don't know about it. Hence the term ignorant.

You'd think this staggering amount of credible evidence would have made the news at one point or another. I mean, besides the Weekly World News or the Star. A story like that would be HUGE and would certainly be a boon for the news organizations. Or, are "they" waiting until just the right moment to reveal it all to us? For that matter, how is it that whoever has this staggering amount of credible evidence is able to keep it such a secret? Even more to the point, why? If there is tangible, quantifiable proof, there should be no way anyone could refute it. Scientists and skeptics do not out-of-hand deny the existence of alien life, they just require absolute proof. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And if it's supposed to be a secret to the degree that there is an immense government cover up, how do YOU know that the evidence is credible, or even that it EXISTS? And if YOU can get word that the evidence exists and is credible, isn't it possible that others who are more in the pipeline ... news organizations, scientific journals, etc....perhaps a military mucky muck who knows everything and is disgruntled and wants to tell all .... would know even MORE and by now, in the last 50 years, would have provided such credible evidence in all its staggering-amounted glory?

Im VERY surprised soooo many people have voted for the "odd atmospherics"

Chucky,

Do you have any idea how the media views this subject? Because of the methodical devotion to discrediting this subject over the past 50 years, it is Taboo for any credible new outlet, or newperson to touch this subject. It is up to the individual sheep to seek the truth.

BTW: Have you ever heard of the Belgian incident? How about the 10,000 video's of the Mexico City incidents(late 80's/early90's)? Funny, they never made the mainstream news in our country. I wonder why?

Why not witches flying on brooms? Why not demons? Why not dragons? These are the kinds of explanations that would have been made centuries ago, up until sci-fi writers started going on about aliens and such. The imagination is a wonderful thing, but it can be tricky. For some people, hear a strange noise at home in the suburbs at noon on a sunny day... "Huh..." Hear the same noise at midnight with a full moon in a beat up old house in the country ... "Is that a ghost?" All a matter of perspective.

When I hear someone say they saw a UFO, I take that literally ... UNIDENTIFIED. It could be anything. Just because you can't identify it does not mean it's an alien spacecraft. There are a million other possible terrestrial explanations for it. We just can't identify it.

Star_One: A theory for some of the UFOs in Nevada was that they were effects (such as electrical discharges) related to the only recently disclosed underground nuclear tests that were going on there.

It is not so difficult to believe that some UFOs are caused by weather conditions.

BigBlueHead

I agree, but if people are voting and actually mean all ufo sightings are odd atmospherics it seems kind of daft....

Also apparently some ufo sightings are caused by faultlines ect.... thats one theory (thats has been tested also i think?) for one of the famous warminster sightings where for years strange lights moved about the sky in the same place and wowed onlookers

My point about the news organizations is that if the information is absolutely credible and irrefutable, then they would likely report it. If there's any hint of speculation, you are right, they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot rubber vidcam. The risk for egg on the face is just too high.

As for the Belgian and Mexican incidents ... again, why assume these unidentified flying objects were of an extraterrestrial source? Just because they're not identified as being terrestrial?

When Indians in the Appalachians saw foxfire, they thought it was spirits. When the settlers saw it, they thought it was fairies or ghosts. Now we know it's bioluminescence produced by decaying fungus on fallen trees. We as a species still have a lot to learn about the planet we call home. Until we can know everything there is to know about every aspect of it, we cannot intelligently claim something to be from another world, simply because it doesn't appear to be from this one.

"My point about the news organizations is that if the information is absolutely credible and irrefutable, then they would likely report it. If there's any hint of speculation, you are right, they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot rubber vidcam. The risk for egg on the face is just too high."

Are you serious....?

Every paper in the uk is full of crap! and most would rather report david beckhams new hairstyle than report about say, a ufo landing infront of parliment

Only the BBC and maybe ITV could be trusted not to broadcast Bullsh*t

The Media in England will not report ufo evidence (eventhough they post it on there website, but not broadcast it)....

Take a look at the disclosure project press conference , it might as well have never happened for all the interest the media showed in it

Star_One: I've heard many tales about "earth lights", but never followed up on any of them. The Nevada nuclear tests might suggest that earthquakes could create electrostatic discharges, but that's pure speculation.

I think that the media is in on keeping the manmade flyingsaucer conspiracy a secret. Heh, that is if you believe in such a conspiracy. ("The facts of reality are what they are, irrespective as to weather you know them or not" -Ayn Rand(of course that quote applies to me as well))

Even if the news said, "A UFO _____" I would still be incredulous because, again, all "UFO" means is Unidentified Flying Object. No more, no less. "UFO evidence" means to me "evident that it's unidentified," which would not be a very spectacular news story.

As for the Belgian and Mexican incidents ... again, why assume these unidentified flying objects were of an extraterrestrial source? Just because they're not identified as being terrestrial?.

Chucky,

Nobody is assuming or stating these objects were absolutely extraterrestial. However, these were not unidentified objects in the sky. Unless of course, you're wondering who built them, or who was piloting them. They were clearly identified, and I can assure you, they were not witches on broomsticks, or strange lights off in the distance. They were identified through video, radar, sightings from the ground. By very credible witnessess. In the Mexico city incidents, they've occured during daylight, and were eyewitnessed by 10's of thousands of people. Don't you find it strange that this has never been commented on by the US news?

They also performed manuever that our known technology cannot perform.

To some, it's an assumption, or a leap to a conclusion. To others, it's a very credible theory when you package all the evidence together.

Why not witches flying on brooms? Why not demons?.

clap clap clap clap clap

You just passed the equivilent of preschool, which was your brilliant usage of the "skeptic analogy."

I doubt it was Santa Clause, because he is actually a product of fiction. True or false?

Maybe you should start thinking of ETs in this sense: Does art influence life or does life influence art? Or how about this gem: What came 1st, the chicken or the egg?

So, if you don't understand what I am getting at, let me help you. Was ET created as fiction by people with fascinating imaginations, or were the writers with fascinating imaginations drawing on stories they have heard of ETs?

Simple law of parsimony. Easier to believe that people are seeing unexplained things in the sky that they can't identify and assuming alien beings than that alien beings are spending inordinate amounts of time and resources to travel all across space to visit this planet, with no physical, tangible evidence being left behind.

Simple law of parsimony. Easier to believe that people are seeing unexplained things in the sky that they can't identify and assuming alien beings than that alien beings are spending inordinate amounts of time and resources to travel all across space to visit this planet, with no physical, tangible evidence being left behind.

Let me ask you Chunky, what makes you think aliens have not left a trace?

Do you believe everything you are told by "official sources?"

Don't even start off by claiming I am a conspiracy theorist, because I am not. I don't think it takes much thought on this subject to believe we have been visited once you have read the few reports that have credibility.

Where are these credible reports? How did you get the priveledge to see them? Did you actually read them and were you able to corroborate the evidence found therein with other known, credible sources? Or all you relying on "UNofficial sources."

Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

As for your post about which came first, the stories or the events, there is such a thing as fiction. I know someone who has made a very good living writing comic books and films built around intelligent alien life. (his work has been among the most popular in the last few years) He is a complete skeptic. All made up. Fantasy.

The human mind is a wonderfully fertile playground.

Someone once said, "Imagination abandoned by reason produces impossible monsters. United with her, she is the mother of the arts and the source of their wonders."

Where are these credible reports? How did you get the priveledge to see them? Did you actually read them and were you able to corroborate the evidence found therein with other known, credible sources? Or all you relying on "UNofficial sources."

Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

As for your post about which came first, the stories or the events, there is such a thing as fiction. I know someone who has made a very good living writing comic books and films built around intelligent alien life. (his work has been among the most popular in the last few years) He is a complete skeptic. All made up. Fantasy.

The human mind is a wonderfully fertile playground.

Someone once said, "Imagination abandoned by reason produces impossible monsters. United with her, she is the mother of the arts and the source of their wonders."

Strange how when I spell something out a child could understand, they respond as though they were aliens missing the logic SOME OF US human beings are so very lucky to have.

So, you have it figured out then. Maybe you should go talk to your author friend and ask him/her the same question I asked you. But, never mind, I am sure you have it figured out and that everything ET-related is along the lines of Santa Clause, demons, werewolves, etc. Just as long as you are going to be utilizing your basic skeptic tactics, I will assume with your logic that if you lived in times when the earth was thought to be flat, you would be quoting occam's razor to point out how someone was crazy to think it was round. Then, after that, you would chuckle and explain how whoever was that nuts should find a broom to fly or go chase demons.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is a false statement.



If someone claimed a UFO full of ETs crashed and they were standing 100 feet away when it happened, would you need extraordinary evidence to prove it? If the UFO crashed in a populated area and there were news crews to the scene, would that be so extraordinary? So, obviously you should think on that one.

Take the Roswell case: Flying saucers were the news of the day proceeding the event. That wasn't enough evidence.

If that happened today, there would probably be quite a bit of evidence due to technology.

Strange how when I ask you a simple question like, "How did you get to view this evidence and did you corroborate it with other credible sources," you resort to childish assumptions and personal attacks.

As for the whole deal with demons and witches and such: All of these things had some trigger that led to the embellishment into legend. Werewolfs were people going nuts and hallucinating from bread fungus, witches were victims of overly-imaginitive religious folk, many claim that"vampires" were often people who were afflicted with a blood disease known as porphyria which causes the gums to recede, extreme sensitivity to sunlight, and an overall pale, gaunt look. Stories were created to explain these things ... the scarier and more mystical the better. A friend once witnessed two men placing what appeared to be a body bag into the trunk of a car one dark, rainy night. Whether it was really a body bag with body or not, he was able to concoct a very nice story about the events leading up to and those following for a potential screenplay. None of it is true, it was simply based on something he saw and a story was created.

If someone sees something they can't explain, it is natural to make up a story. As this story is passed along, it becomes ever more embellished and more people believe it. Soon, people begin formalizing these embellishments into what are eventually called "credible sources" and the people who believe them are the ones who believe them anyway....People will pull similar observances and thoughts and discard the other, more logical elements because they don't fit, and the story becomes "universal" among those who choose to believe.

See: religion

Strange how when I ask you a simple question like, "How did you get to view this evidence and did you corroborate it with other credible sources," you resort to childish assumptions and personal attacks.

Hey, take some of your own medicine.

You want credible evidence of a UFO. I got it!!! However, no one here is interested in it. Look down to my link NJ lights/UFO 2001. There was corroborating witnesses, radar data, video.

Yes, it is a UFO! Now, you can speculate that it is a flare or whatever, but not a one skeptic or official came out to say they are sure it was. So, therefore, this remains unidentified even after two years.

Chucky,

Are you going to respond to my recent post?

Chucky,

Are you going to respond to my recent post?

You mean: Nobody is assuming or stating these objects were absolutely extraterrestial. However, these were not unidentified objects in the sky. Unless of course, you're wondering who built them, or who was piloting them. They were clearly identified, and I can assure you, they were not witches on broomsticks, or strange lights off in the distance. They were identified through video, radar, sightings from the ground. By very credible witnessess. In the Mexico city incidents, they've occured during daylight, and were eyewitnessed by 10's of thousands of people. Don't you find it strange that this has never been commented on by the US news?

They also performed manuever that our known technology cannot perform. ???/

You say they were "identified......" As what, exactly?

No, just as you see here in these forums, any evidence gets the cold shoulder and it didn’t happen. If it’s not on CNN and coming from a White Horse Souse it didn’t happen. To any body that has done even the basic research of UFO’s, ETI, and so on it is very apparent that there is on hell of a major cover-up and misinformation campaign going on. Throw 50 dice down and when they all come up sixes in a row I may listen that CS crater chains are caused by something natural. Till then I will affirm and state that these are weapons that have been used in our solar system. Yes, it probably took spacecraft to do these crater chains. So another affirmation of evidence of UFO’s that isn’t ever gonna make the 6 o’clock news.

Picture a meteor coming through the atmosphere at a low trajectory. As it hit the surface, would it not sort of skip like a stone on a lake? Would this not cause a crater chain? Especially if the planet or moon's surface was somewhat soft and molten when it hit, perhaps in its early stages of formation?

What can I say? :rolleyes:

By the way, I happen to be a participant in setiathome. Wonder why their sensitive recording devices haven't picked up any alien signals? Hell, they get thrown off by a washing machine or a microwave, why wouldn't a strong, foreign signal right here in our own back yard tip them off?

Yes, it probably took spacecraft to do these crater chains. So another affirmation of evidence of UFO’s that isn’t ever gonna make the 6 o’clock news.


How can you use "probably" and "affirmation" in the the same statement concerning the same subject?

You say they were "identified......" As what, exactly?

So Chucky, Are you telling me that you're commenting on this subject here and you have never heard of, or seen the video/photo's, eyewitness testimonials, of the Belgian or Mexico City incidents???

If this is the case, then you are precisely what I was referring to when I used the term ignorant.

All I asked was, as what they were identified. Was a public statement made by a reputable source of information that these were, indeed, alien spacecraft? Or just a bunch of people who witnessed a radar blip or a blob of light do something weird?
Everything I've seen about the Belgian icident goes on and on about what the object was NOT! I couldn't care less about what it was NOT .... What WAS it?

Plus, you would think that a race of beings so capable of interplanetary travel would have eventually figured away around the need for headlights on their vehicles.

Chucky,

The only thing unidentifiable about the objects, was who was piloting them, and who/where they were manufactured. From our limited knowledge of things we can disertain this:

1. There was a solid object of approximate size at a specific location in the sky.
2. It was seen from the ground, on video, on photos, on radar, via the air from other pilots.
3. The Mexico city incident was in broad daylight, it was a shinny silver disk that appeared to be spinning on its axis.

What more information do you need?

Can you please answer me one simple question? Have you ever heard of these 2 incidents?

Doesn't matter whether or not I have heard of either incidents. Are you completely knowlegeable about every other possible thing it could NOT be to lead to the conclusion that it's ET? If not, then you are just as ignorant. I researched the Belgian one because of this thread. The only sites I found that stated it as true were site devoted purely to UFOs and psi. None were from any authoritative, disinterested source. I did find this that you may find interesting. Of course, you'll probably poo poo it: http://membres.lycos.fr/marchallet/BelgianUFO.htm

Can you answer me a simple question? How do any of those 3 statements you list make any sort of conclusion that the object was not of this world? Again, the simple truth is that just because it's unidentified does not mean it's unidentifiable.

Chucky,

Where did I ever state that these objects were emphatically 'from out of this world'?

Chucky, the fact that you had never heard of either of these incidents, tells me you know very little about the subject you are attacking. I do not view each individual incident, and state any conclusions. I've reasearched this subject for the last 25 years. When you've analyzed how the military/intelligence community has dealt with this subject over the years, you'd have to be blind and deaf to conclude there's nothing going on. Conversely, large numbers of credible eyewitness(Military officers, pilots, politicians,) who have gone on and off the record, stating that the subject is real, and is taken very seriously at the highest levels.

I have spoken to a former high ranking NASA employee who stated to me that he'd never go on record with his statement, but the craft are real, and are not manufactured from our society(Earth).

You need to think for yourself, and put ALL the evidence together.

[quote]Can you answer me a simple question? How do any of those 3 statements you list make any sort of conclusion that the object was not of this world? Again, the simple truth is that just because it's unidentified does not mean it's unidentifiable.

WHAT is unidentified? AND who said anything about something being unidentifiable? What are you trying to say here?

You keep saying it is identified, but you do not identify it as anything in particular. "Real" doesn't mean anything. Everything you can see hear or touch is "real." What IS it? What are these statemnets by these pilots and officers and politicians (reliable sources if I ever saw any)? "I saw something strange and I don't know what it is." "Uh...yeah, I saw it, too. I don't know what it was, but it certainly was weird, and definitely real."

I'm not attacking the veracity of the incidents. I'm sure those people saw SOMEthing. However, keeping with the theme of this post, you have given no evidence or clear indication of WHAT the something was, certainly no evidence of ET (again, the theme of this post. If you want to propose another possibility, perhaps another thread topic is in order?) It's not my purpose to disprove your assertations. The burden of proof is on you.

Chucky,

I don't have the time or energy to educate you on everything I've learned on this subject over the past 25 years. I suppose I could post the major issues, and give you an overview of the important details, but frankly, I don't think it's worth the effort. The reason I say this is cause you came in here attacking a subject you know NOTHING about. I find this very perplexing.

Why would someone attack a subject, and people involved in a subject when they know absolutely nothing about it?? If you can give me an answer to this question, I might reconsider.

The burden of proof is on you.

Chunky, I think you can grasp the main point of the conversation which is that although nothing is conclusive at this point, there does seem to be visitations here which were and are kept under wraps.

It is impossible to apply a scientific method of research under these circumstances.

What needs to be done is some real investigation by sources other than the government and idiot UFOologists like Dr. Greer. He singlehandedly discredited many credible witnesses by attaching his name to them and bringing in obvious freaks that had no proof. Then, after a little research, we find out that he sells UFO sighting kits and takes people out to find UFOs.

Therefore, there needs to be a credible UFO sighting investigator and doubt that will happen. Think about it Chunky, when was the last time you saw the NASA shuttle fly overhead with your own eyes. I never have. Maybe that doesn't exist either.

I attacked nothing. I merely made a completely reasonable statement that just because someone sees something they can't identify, does not mean it's alien in nature. That is all. I'm seeking corpus delecti.

[QUOTE=Unknown_userThink about it Chunky, when was the last time you saw the NASA shuttle fly overhead with your own eyes. I never have. Maybe that doesn't exist either.[/QUOTE]




Boulder, Colorado. August 2001....Could have been the space lab, but it was going in the right trajectory and was late in the evening before the shuttle landed the next morning in Califorinia.

Why not witches flying on brooms? Why not demons? Why not dragons? These are the kinds of explanations that would have been made centuries ago, up until sci-fi writers started going on about aliens and such. The imagination is a wonderful thing, but it can be tricky. For some people, hear a strange noise at home in the suburbs at noon on a sunny day... "Huh..." Hear the same noise at midnight with a full moon in a beat up old house in the country ... "Is that a ghost?" All a matter of perspective.

Chucky,

I consider this paragraph to be an attack.

One thing you should understand is that the proponents who accept the idea that these object may in fact be from out of this world, do not use the lights in the sky reports to confirm their suspisions. These reports are in fact, a burden on the entire issue. They bring out the kooks, and muddy the watters. There is an incredible amount of real evidence that needs to be given to the public so they can make up their own mind. Unfortunately, this subject suffers the greatest from the ridicule factor. What this does is prevents those who may have a curiosity from ever looking into it with an open mind.

What you've done is accept the debunkers explanation for the entire subject. What they do is attack the fringe element, and stay far, far away from any incident they can't explain. They often times use the Broomsticks/witches, Santa Claus and Elvis anologies to poke fun. I've seen it far too often.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but you sound like a reasonable person, who just doesn't know the real facts on this subject. I really think you would be doing yourself a great justice by looking into it a bit. You might be very surprised by what you find.

[/QUOTE]Boulder, Colorado. August 2001....Could have been the space lab, but it was going in the right trajectory and was late in the evening before the shuttle landed the next morning in Califorinia.[/QUOTE]




Sure.... I think you are seeing things. What makes you think it was the shuttle, when there are other things just as plausible, like demons and Santa? :bugeye:

Pure speculation on my part, but timing, location, probability indicate as much....
Newscasts that indicated earlier that if you look up in the night sky later this evening, you might get a glimpse of the shuttle passing over ... that sort of thing.

Still, the last thing I would have thought it to be would have been an alien spacecraft of any sort. Nor demons or Santa for that matter. None of those things are proven to exist. Space shuttles do, indeed, exist.

Pure speculation on my part, but timing, location, probability indicate as much....
Newscasts that indicated earlier that if you look up in the night sky later this evening, you might get a glimpse of the shuttle passing over ... that sort of thing.

Still, the last thing I would have thought it to be would have been an alien spacecraft of any sort. Nor demons or Santa for that matter. None of those things are proven to exist. Space shuttles do, indeed, exist.



What is scary is that you make the comparison between Santa and UFOs as equal fictional things, although they really have nothing in common. One is a fictitious tale and the other is a mystery.



Do you think it is strange that if something was flying overhead and didn't appear to be anything you were familiar with, that it might not be man made? Just do the Drake equation and tell me how Occam's razor would actually say that it is most likely there is intelligent life besides us existing, and millions of it.

N = The number of civilizations in The Milky Way Galaxy whose electromagnetic emissions are detectable.

R* =The rate of formation of stars suitable for the development of intelligent life.

fp = The fraction of those stars with planetary systems.

ne = The number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for life.

fl = The fraction of suitable planets on which life actually appears.

fi = The fraction of life bearing planets on which intelligent life emerges. For more information, please visit Dr. William Calvin's "The Drake Equation's fi"

fc = The fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space.

L = The length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

For fun, try this
http://www.seti-inst.edu/seti/seti_science/drake_calculator.html

What is scary is that you make the comparison between Santa and UFOs as equal fictional things, although they really have nothing in common. One is a fictitious tale and the other is a mystery.

Do you think it is strange that if something was flying overhead and didn't appear to be anything you were familiar with, that it might not be man made? Just do the Drake equation and tell me how Occam's razor would actually say that it is most likely there is intelligent life besides us existing, and millions of it.


I didn't make the Santa comparison, you did.


As for the second bit, that's the whole point. Knowledge is power. I know what it could most possibly have been, with a fairly high probability. Are you saying that if I couldn't speculate that it might possibly be the shuttle, because perhaps I were unaware of the shuttle's existence, it would make it all the more probable that it wasn't terrestrial? What it is and what I perceive it to be are two different things. Could have been the space lab. Could have been a meteor (unlikely ... no trail), but given the circumstances and the finite information I had at the time, chances were quite good that it was the shuttle. But of the world of things man-made or natural that it COULD have been, there is still no reason for me to reach to the point to speculate alien intelligence was present.

None of the posts and links here about Belgium or Mexico City or funny balls of light or anything else can state unequivically that what was being observed was of ET nature, only that it looks mighty strange and a bunch of people couldn't figure out what it was. That does not equal alien life.

Basically, this can be ended here. The three of us are apparently the only ones continuing this thread and two things are obvious: 1. The links and accounts you have posted throughout the thread are insufficient to convince me that what has been observed is conclusively out of this world. 2. I will never convince you that concluding that something is what you believe it to be, lacking the ability to identify it otherwise ("It's not___ it must be ___"), is not a credible way of identifying anything.

I didn't make the Santa comparison, you did.


As for the second bit, that's the whole point. Knowledge is power. I know what it could most possibly have been, with a fairly high probability. Are you saying that if I couldn't speculate that it might possibly be the shuttle, because perhaps I were unaware of the shuttle's existence, it would make it all the more probable that it wasn't terrestrial? What it is and what I perceive it to be are two different things. Could have been the space lab. Could have been a meteor (unlikely ... no trail), but given the circumstances and the finite information I had at the time, chances were quite good that it was the shuttle. But of the world of things man-made or natural that it COULD have been, there is still no reason for me to reach to the point to speculate alien intelligence was present.

None of the posts and links here about Belgium or Mexico City or funny balls of light or anything else can state unequivically that what was being observed was of ET nature, only that it looks mighty strange and a bunch of people couldn't figure out what it was. That does not equal alien life.


Yes, of course. However, with knowledge you should find it a little easy to weed out the debunker skeptics and the UFOoligists, Art Bell, etc., who are trying to fool the fools. The only thing left is credible stories, unidentified flying objects, and some documents discovered due to the FOIA that make me personally a little skeptical of the gov. telling anything close to the truth on the issue of ET. Of course, they really don't say anything, they just black out pages of info and deny.

:cool: Well friends if UFO's are not spiritual energy, then they are real? But what is keeping them from showing up? world hysteria ! of-course is keeping them from doing so!

World hysteria will die out after one month of there presence, so why our alien friends shying to show up?

In my opinion to understand UFO's we have to go back back into hstory of religion and locate is anybody there travelling in space and how. Our answer lies in the past, and we will, i am sure find out the reason behind there feeling shy not show up in open.

I'm sorry to say that I cannot reply to the poll, because it assumes there is only one possible explanation for all UFO phenomenon. Project Blue Book's conclusions alone (which show dozens of differnt explanations for it's cases) prove this premice is false.

You are all correct and you are all incorrect.

They are from our FUTURE like 23,500 AD - the next civilization :D

They are all my forgotten Experiment Results... ;) :D



bye!

The history of recovered flying saucers appears to begin in 1947 with the Roswell crash. I have listened to and read sufficient testimony from retired military personnle and other closely associated with the Roswell base to have concluded that:-
1. It was a machine not originating from this planet.
2. The military retrieved it.
3. They covered up (1) and (2) because of the 'Cold-War' by means of threats to anyone who challenged their handling of the situation.

Since Roswell mankind appears to have created Alien Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs) by back-engineering of recovered flying saucers. Col. Philip Corso explains how this was done in his book 'The Day After Roswell' which is well-worth reading.

The major flaw in this poll is the question itself, the question implies the origin of ALL ufo's, yet theres no option for a combination of all the answers, i dont believe they are all of ET origin, i dont believe they are all manmade, i dont believe they are all hallucinations, i believe(or am open minded towards) a combination of all of the possibilities.

Well, I since I have got this opportunity, acoording to me, UFOs are what you want them to be!
Let me explain.
For a desperate believer, they are the proof;
For a sceptic, they are a hoax, nothing but weather balloons!
For a rational thinker, they are a possibility;
For a cult member, they are a sign...
and so on.

Being brought up in a questioning environment, a modern human being does not let himself taken for a ride, no doubt how tempting and strong the evidence may seem. It all depends on the outlook of the person who is undergoing a sighting at that time.
:bugeye:
Tell me, do you still believe what you were taught in school?

Where the hell is the "other" or "more than one of the above" options? Because it's impossible to say "what do you think an object is the isn't instantly recognisable as a plane?" because every answer would be right. I can't believe that anyone would be able to say that something unrecognisable was ALWAYS something man-made, or ALWAYS a weird cloud or whatever. Because if its unidentifiable then it could just as easily be any of them, right?

just think, aliens are most likey going to be quite similar to humans
if that is true, the aliens will either be;

capitalist, they would have made deals with the humans to use us a tourist attraction, you can say that conspired with the gvt to keep away from us but rebellious aliens would still be plentiful

Emperor, think Japan hundreds of years ago. If they were like this, they wouldnt have been spotted by the public, unless the alien emporer wanted open deals with us

Monarchy, No, not possible, if it was a monarchy, the aliens would have attacked by now (they would automatically win, we dont even have the technology to find them)

communist, they would have talked to the general public by now, or would have possibly killed us

Fascist, wed be dead or slaves by now

i dont ligically see why ufos would have done what they are sposedly doing, if anyone can see a logical reason, im all ears

lol, i like the idea of a communist alien, very clever, theres also the possibility they are completely different from us, like being peaceful, i cant think of any logical reasons for any supposed actions they have taken, perhaps they wish to conserve our planet and its life, maybe they arnt just interested in us but are interested in plants/wildlife and studying that aswel and perhaps protecting it(since its most likely unique), perhaps we now know where the last dodo's went....

Err where's the "other" option in the poll? I don't think it either of those options. It think the word UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) came from what it's name proposes, an unidentified flying object. It is the title we give flying objects that we cannot identify right then and there. It doesn't mean they are aliens, it could mean they are balloons or high speed manuevering aircrafts.

Now if we are talking about ALIENS, then this is something else. Alain they wouldn't be like us either. Over the past few thousand of years we have evolved to look much different than out former selves (not greatly though). This is just a blink of an eye in the long history of earth and the lives of it's inhabitants. We have been living for so a short amount of time it is quite amazing. Aliens would have evolved for millions of year, an seemingly infinite amount of time compared to the span of humans on earth. They would be much more evolved and look much different they we would. Or, maybe they just took the same path as the rest of the animals on our earth and grew up looking like an et version of a dog. Who knows?

"lol, i like the idea of a communist alien, very clever, theres also the possibility they are completely different from us, like being peaceful, i cant think of any logical reasons for any supposed actions they have taken, perhaps they wish to conserve our planet and its life, maybe they arnt just interested in us but are interested in plants/wildlife and studying that aswel and perhaps protecting it(since its most likely unique), perhaps we now know where the last dodo's went...."

hippie aliens? even if that is right, the best way to protect earth, is to have most the humans off it, or in zoos

vortox, i really dont think they are going to be too different. Life only started on Earth, maybe mars too. So there can only be a certain amount of conditions.
Looking at different types (not neccesarily species) of animals
insects - cant grow very big, tend to swarm an area and then die out when there is no food so wouldnt become the dominant species

sea creatures, unlikely, cant get technology without hands and cant take over much of a world, space travel would be VERY hard

mammal - would all end up basically the same as humans anyway (such as from Planet of the Apes"

dinasour tpye of thing - very low intelligence, no chance of getting into space

single celled crap - no chance of getting into space

i cant see any animal apart from humanoids that could get to space

@kmguru
>They are from our FUTURE like 23,500 AD - the next civilization

That's a possible explanation for me, too.
There is a relatively unknown TV movie, made in the 1980ties, named "Mission Alien".

even if that is right, the best way to protect earth, is to have most the humans off it, or in zoos
Too true, i guess it wouldnt be such a bad life in a zoo, no need to work or have money, just eat, sleep and watch tv, yep thats the life for me, now, where are those damn hippie aliens......

My explanation was not listed.
They are hallucinations, but they are TRUE hallucinations. Aliens are trying to communicate with us. The only way is to cause disturbances in our brain, which is quantuum entangled with every other point in the universe,

or something.

They are the results of the populace eating too many BigMacs and watching too much tv.

On more than one occasion, I have inadvertantly frightened people, who perceived me as operating an alien spacecraft. Alas, it was just me & my airplane. Most often, night aerobatics get the impressionable in a twitter, sometimes from nearby, and sometimes from many miles away. I often must change where I practise, because inadvertantly frightening the public is an increasingly serious "offense". Leaving the gullible awestruck remains an unwritten transgression, but the FAA & their attorneys take great offense in these cases, and have immense tax-paid resources dedicated to pinning something life-wrecking on the offending "alien".

@Persol

>They are the results of the populace eating too many BigMacs and watching too much tv.

:D :D
That's a good one!

Indeed, people eat too many FatMacs.

And I think the effect is even worse if people eat their Mac's WHILE watching TV...
;)

The irony is that I made that comment while we were eating Taco Bell and watching TV.

I'm surprised and disappointed that the likeliest option
in the poll (as I see it) does not even show. I refer
to unmanned fully robotic, albeit highly intelligent probes
sent for exploration and scientific purposes.

Why should we limit our choices to sci-fi, Hollywood
monster flicks, spiritualism and hallucination? There
are interesting and plausible alternatives. - Larry

http://www.larryhatch.net

@larryhat

Of course unmanned fully automated robots are the technically most realistic option.

But: those who sent the robots would have no chance to ever see them back in the lifecycle of their civilization.

If the constructors want to get back some results of the robot expeditions in a reasonable interval of time, the robots would need hyper-light-speed propulsion, time-travel-facilities or at least any hyper-light-speed medium for information transmission (tachyons?)

Time travel: would that have an EMD effect on any computer system on board of the robot, so that computer would go out of order, and gained scientific results would be lost?

Other possibility: the robots not intended to return results, but to communicate something to those they meet on the expedition (that was the reason for the golden disc with info about humanity on board of Pioneer)
But no alien robot vessel has ever tried to establish contact or to deliver alien information to Earth. Why?

Larry, I have wondered about the possibility that some UFOs might be a type of
automated probe sent to gather information also. Just speculation, of course, but
somewhat more reasonable than some other speculation. I can give a link to a site
that a list of the 46 nearest (less than 50 light years) stars that are similar to our
sun in size and luminosity. Assuming an advanced civilization, they may understand their own bodies well enough to have a 150-200 year or longer lifespan. Probes with
speeds close enough to 'c' could be launched and return within their lifetimes, making
them a reasonable way to gather information. The website has much speculation on it,
but there is also some good information. The charts were established after the Betty
and Barney Hill incident and Marjorie Fish's interpretation of the 'star chart' Betty drew
after hypnotism. They were established by some in the scientific community to include
Distance, Apparent Magnitude, Luminosity, and Spectral Class of the stars. Another
chart has some of the estimated ages of the stars, some billions of years older than
our own sun. Interesting for someone not already familiar with the details of this story.
http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Zeta_Reticuli_Incident.htm

UFO's are U, and I have no factual evidence of what that ID might be, therefore I choose to think nothing, until such factual evidence shows up.
I hate empty speculations

Avatar, you mean like the 'thought exercises' given so often to help students understand Special Relativity? Like flying a pole into a barn at .8c and having someone
slam the barn doors shut? I hate it too. There is evidence for UFOs, but no evidence
as to what they are, just evidence to what they are not.

well, I don't say that thinking is bad, but thinking needs some input data, and I have no such data.

Terrestrial organisms have lifespans ranging from less than a day to several thousand years. Speculation on the lifespan of ET life is futile.

@kmguru
>They are from our FUTURE like 23,500 AD - the next civilization

That's a possible explanation for me, too.
There is a relatively unknown TV movie, made in the 1980ties, named "Mission Alien".

I am glad, you like that. Many years ago, I had a dream about that which is gradually coming true. Also, I had a dream about fish people, our first contact with Aliens that would happen in about 150 years....

kmguru! nice to see you !

out of all these explanations and theories and speculations, i like to point to one good comment:

They are hallucinations, but they are TRUE hallucinations. Aliens are trying to communicate with us. The only way is to cause disturbances in our brain, which is quantuum entangled with every other point in the universe,

this, my friends, is a GREAT statement. why is it that SOO many people claim to see aliens, UFOs, etc- when there is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY OF IT ?

BECAUSE IN A SENSE THEY ARE HALLUCINATIONS!
and dont get me wrong here- there can be multiple-hallucinations, meaning diff people can see the same hallucination (mass UFO sightings, or just take some LSD with a couple friends :D )

this is not to say that there ARENT UNMANNED PROBES just 'watching' - this is very likely also. but what im talking about are the real UFOs, the Aliens, and the strange phenomena.

---

i have been trying to think very hard on how to explain to non-believers the situation. this is really my task right now.

why does it seem like we are the only people in the universe?
when mathematically there should be millions of life forms abound?

well, consider some of the things that supposed 'channelers' claim:
1) they seem to agree on the idea of progressive realities.
a) they call these realities 'densities' or 'dimensions' (most say density)
b) they agree that intelligent life begins at 3rd density.
c) they claim that life forms rise in density, becoming less physical and more spiritual energy the higher up

2) they state that - what differenciates the densities is the frequency at which the Atoms vibrate. the higher the density the higher frequecy/more vibration.

3) some even go to the extent to explaining this as the reason Humans have a hard time seeing/believing they exist.

now, i do believe some of this density talk, because it seems to solve alot of the mystery surrounding this subject.

but theres other implications to this as well, and i would like to share them with you also:

a) if there in fact other dimensions of reality, like many Humans have proclaimed before, then perhaps this can be related to the way InterStellar Travel works.

i will expand on this in hopes of giving an idea of how this density idea works:

like i stated before, the higher the density, the less physical mass and the more spiritual mass (soul) you carry. physical mass, as you know, is subject to alot of interaction/interference, when compared to other things, such as radio waves or microwaves. now, the spirit (soul) has no physical properties, in other words it could quite possibly step inside of a black hole (extreme example)

so, with this in mind, try to imagine what its like living in another density.

it is said that you can see gravity in either 4th or 5th density, meaning the construction of the other realities (densities) are SUBSTANTIALLY different from what we know as physics and relativity and etcetera.

this is what is claimed as methods for space travel, according to some sources. they shift into a higher density, in order to have less physical mass, or perhaps to shift into a dimension where time is non-existant (or perhaps slower at least) - and then proceed to 'travel' in this other reality. why? here is a simple explanation:

when they move 1 light-year in this shifted density, they in essence travelled 100 light-years in their real , original , density.

thats just what i gather from all the sources i have studied and searched.
of course it is purely speculative, but i thought you guys would know that by now !

Iranians Captivated by UFO Sighting :News at http://www.payvand.com/news/04/apr/1197.html

See also Google news under the subject

Terrestrial organisms have lifespans ranging from less than a day to several thousand years. Speculation on the lifespan of ET life is futile.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's great Faulty! So we can finally despense with the tired old argument
there can't be aliens visiting "because it would take too long to get here."
We have no way of knowing how long it would take them to get here or
what percentage of their life that would be.

Yes we can.

Iranians Captivated by UFO Sighting :News at http://www.payvand.com/news/04/apr/1197.html

Its amazing the effect that Venus has on people in modern times... one can only imagine what those in ancient times thought. Assuming they were a more superstitious lot than the contemporary, but perhaps the jury is still out on that one.

An Air Force officer quoted in one Tehran publication is calling on Iran's Supreme National Security Council to determine whether Iran is being visited by aliens. He said the council should determine whether the visitors have good or bad intentions.

of course they would watch the middle east during this war.

good or bad intentions? well, that depends on who your talking to.

Its amazing the effect that Venus has on people in modern times...

Okay, I don't get the thing with Venus.

When someone reports a large disc shaped object hovering a few hundred feet away with alternating patters of colored lights and which accelerates at a very high rate of speed, no one is going to convince me they saw Venus.

maybe it's from Venus! :eek: :D
--
I also find that Venus explanation ridiculous, especially when they told it to one fighter pilot, that he had been chasing Venus for over 10 minutes. that's insulting

Chasing planets isn't as silly as you might think, since afterall the earths spin can make a static body appear to move in relationship to itself.

I would suggest there is alot of sightings of "odd" things that can't be identified straight away, but I don't think that these would necessarily be alien craft since there are so many different theories to what a heavenly body might be.

As mentioned in many other threads some reported sightings are weather balloons, others are balloons that people concoct themselves, then theirs model airplanes and kites which people do still use, and even amatuer rocket enthusiasts.

Not to forget things like microlights and paragliders, the latter of course using thermal layers to gain altitude so they will tend to circle near a good thermal layer. (In fact the sleeve of which a person suits themselves into might be metalic to deal with some of the cold of altitude.)

The of course theres the obvious aircraft traffic, both civilian and Military (The later of which don't discuss their operations with civilian ground control which can cause problems as seen by many crashes involving military and civilian craft.)

There are then turbulance equations, where cloud spouts through differing pressure can generate abnormalities, which in turn could reflect the light differently than the rest of the sky. There is also the very small potential that the manipulation of particles through radiology within the atmosphere could generate alterations in weather behaviour as well as generating abnormalities that appear to be unidentified.

During the night you can see satellites on low orbital paths blinking as they move across the sky, and even some of the spacial platforms that were being put together in the event of an international space station. (Afterall Mir could be seen while it was still in orbit.) Theres of course all the space debris to that exists in orbit like dieing satellites.

Then there is meteor's that are madeup from the debris (both rock and space exploitary [and I do mean exploit]) that will streak across the skies shedding piece by piece as the atmosphere and it's force of decent causes it to break up.

It doesn't leave much to actually be "Alien Flying Craft", and you would still have to question the many why's and how's something would be flying in the sky. For instance
why would an alien craft "Hover", you might say "Observation" but satellites can act as observation platforms where supposedly a newspaper headline can be read on the ground (And even future technological advances look set to go further by identify people by their Biometric scent [Gene sniffing] or even being able to read a persons thought, perhaps even large instances of Gene therapy [Although this advance has alot of fears from eugenic use as undesirable elements are sequenced out.])

I suppose you can say I'm very much a skeptic of something in the sky being flown by an "Alien", or in fact whether it is a UFO, since there is little left to be "Unidentified".

of course, Stryder, I totally agree with you, but the thought of pilots chasing Venus does seem ridiculous. It could be anything else (spherical lightning whatever), but not Venus

I suppose you can say I'm very much a skeptic of something in the sky being flown by an "Alien", or in fact whether it is a UFO, since there is little left to be "Unidentified".

You are using the typical skeptical reasoning that, if 90%+ of the sightings can be explained, then 100% can.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like this.

There are many hundreds of unknown sightings for which no conventional explanation has been postulated, even by skeptics, because they are so unusual.

You are using the typical skeptical reasoning that, if 90%+ of the sightings can be explained, then 100% can.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like this.

There are many hundreds of unknown sightings for which no conventional explanation has been postulated, even by skeptics, because they are so unusual.
It also doesnt work that because 10% are unexplained they must all be true, both are huge illogical leaps to make.

It also doesnt work that because 10% are unexplained they must all be true

Certainly not, but I never made that presumption.

Well if I saw an unexplained event I would tell you, the main problem is all the ones I've seen can be explained and admittedly my viewpoint might be a little tainted with knowledge on some projects that exist but don't exist, if you catch my drift.