http://www.furisdead.com/momfur.html

First, they compare meat eaters to Nazis... now they tell children that their mothers are animal killers. I am appalled.

PETA rules.

People wearing fur in modern society make me sick. Who the fuck do they think they're impressing in this day and age? Any campaign against this abhorrent practice is a good campaign.

Right, because you're superiour to those horrid monsters who wear fur. Sure, you might wear leather, but it's not like some poor innocent creature was killed to make your shoes - oh wait...

i just bought a rabbit fur-lined suede jacket.. with matching purse of course.... its sooo warm and cuddly..sometimes i pet the hood... ill have to take a picture of it.. i've nicknamed the coat my rabbit, and the purse my little bunny. :)

I aint gonna bite... Fuck it yes I am...

I have a problem with people who wear fur as a status symbol to show how rich they are. Fuckin A I'm superior to them. Wearing it thru necessity is a different matter entirely.

does "its winter you fucking moron" count as a necessity?

btw, wearing fur does not mean you are rich, it mean you are warm. fur is not expensive. :bugeye:

does "its winter you fucking moron" count as a necessity?

Not in Australia. Maybe if you're an eskimo. Fur lining made from a meat producing free range farmed animal is ok in my opinion.

Dont kill for fashion.

Not in Australia. Maybe if you're an eskimo. Fur lining made from a meat producing free range farmed animal is ok in my opinion.

You are aware that not everybody lives in Australia, indeed that most humans live in places other than Australia?

Dont kill for fashion

What about fetishism? Is it okay to kill for that?

eskimos are not the only ones who shovel snow. and i didn't kill for fashion, i bought.

secondly, i beleive that anyone who is a non-vegitarian and does not wear fur is wrong and wasteful. and ive eaten alot of hamburgers in my life, so i have alot of leather buying to catch up on.

What the fuck is wrong with wearing wool? Its warm and the animals going to be killed for meat anyway.

ou are aware that not everybody lives in Australia, indeed that most humans live in places other than Australia?

I can only speak for myself. When I see someone wearing fur it makes me sick because it is not necessary where I live. My opinions are a product of my environment and I stand by them.

and i didn't kill for fashion, i bought.

then you killed.

I AM looking at buying a troll skin coat sometime soon tho, so I guess that makes me a hypocrite... :D

I AM looking at buying a troll skin coat sometime soon tho, so I guess that makes me a hypocrite...

Blatent misuse of the term, newb.

nope, just a bad speller.

Blatent misuse of the term, newb.

Well dur

nope, just a bad speller.

Not in english

Yeah, but in English you apostrophize "ain't". :)

Dammit. I'd hoped I'd edited that quick enough...

Fur is murder! If you want to make a fur coat, shave your Dads ass!

well then i hope you have a jolly good time as an english hypocrite.
____________

cc please tell me you're kidding.

Nope. Fur murder. Vegetarian.... Mmmmm Bacon cheese burger.... These wool sweaters are so itchy. And my rabbit shoes clash with my ferrit coat.

yes, i agree.. wool is sandpaper and could be used as a form of torture..

but a ferrit coat? ewwwwww... they're ugly and smelly.. and.. their fur is so thin...

I could be wrong about this but the way I understand it about leather is that only certain cows are used for make most leather. Some sort of loose skinned cow. I also don't think we use the meat from that cow.

Do we really harvest leather from dairy and meat cows? Isn't it spotted just like their fur?

I could be wrong about this but the way I understand it about leather is that only certain cows are used for make most leather. Some sort of loose skinned cow.

The kind that rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.

That guy made the nicest dresses.

With real girls.

Well, you can tan just about any animal skin, different ones being good for different purposes, like old bull hide bieng good for thickness and so on, maybe use pigskn for some nice gloves etc. As for wool, it rocks. It is superior to any artificial stuff I have worn so far for walking boot socks. the only problem is that it can be too warm.

Hey xev, why do you want us to like you?

Dairy cows (freisha) (sp?) don't have as much meat on em as other varieties. They're the spotted ones. You can make leather from just about any animal. The difference is you can make one coat from 30 minks or ten jumpers from one sheep and you don't have to bash its skull in so you don't damage the pelt while killing it.

I'm the "Johnny come lately" for this post. Forgive me for having a life.

Anyway, there were a few exchanges earlier on in this post that, in my opinion, miss the point. What I understand is that PETA is for "Ethical Treatment" of animals and not against fur coats - maybe they, PETA, miss the point of their msg. too. I mean is there anything wrong with ethically and responsibly "Trapping" wild animals for, among other things, fur coats? I think not. There are some people on this earth that make their livings, better yet subsist, by what the land has to offer. Those people live in a comfortable "balance" WITH nature. People who make a living off the un-ethical treatment of animals - as seen in the PETA video - are ... un-ethical, as are the people who buy products produced from animal farms. Pretty fucken simple if ya ask me...

i'll eat and wear whatever the hell i feel like.
PETA is an organization of fanatics.
their tactics make me sick sometimes. i wrote them an email one time saying "i hope your website gets hacked" because one of their adds went over the line (again!)

having said that, i still think we need PETA

without PETA animals would be treated even worse than they're treated now

Some men hunt for sport,
others hunt for food
The only think I'm hunting for
Is an outfit that looks good

See my vest, see my vest,
Made from real gorilla chest
Feel this sweater, there's no better
Than authenitc Irish Setter!
See this hat, 'twas my cat
My evening wear, a vampire bat
These white slippers are albino
African endangered rhino!
Grizzly bear underwear
Turtle's necks, I've got my share
Beret of poodle on my noodle it shall rest!
Try my red robin suit
Comes one breast or two
See my vest, see my vest, see my vest!

Like my loafers? Former gophers!
It was that or skin my chauffers
But a greyhound fur tuxedo would be best
So let's prepare these dogs!

Kill two for matching clogs!

See my vest!
See my vest!
Oh, please, won't you see my veeesssst!

Clever

Nice poem. It's obvious you can quote people now all you have to learn is "give credit where credit is due".

Allow me to do it for you,
M. Burns

otheadp

You're right, in my mind. BUT to ensure animals are treated ethically requires action from everyone, not just PETA.

Fireguy:
There are some people on this earth that make their livings, better yet subsist, by what the land has to offer. Those people live in a comfortable "balance" WITH nature.
Yes, but what bites is the women strolling down 5th avenue and Russian ghettos in fur for what? Prestige.


What's so wrong in wearing faux fur? I've been fooled countless times by the ones I see in shopping malls. If you can fool me, you can fool anyone. What's the allure? The feel? The idea of walking around knowing the fur on your back is another mammal's?

Why not just wear faux fur- fucking cheaper, prettier, and way eaiser to mantain.

Why?

gend...

You raise an interesting and important question, one that I have toiled with for years - "..whats the deal with materialism?"

I think it is something inherant of capitalist societies. So to answer your question requires close examination of society, not the ethical treatment of animals... :)

fireguy:
"..whats the deal with materialism?"

I think it is something inherant of capitalist societies
You people and your isms.
There were women in curlers walking the Kremlin boulevards in communist Russia. There is an old Cuban woman with no shoes on and no food on the table with a moth eaten fur in a box that she treasures.

It has nothing to do with "capitalist societies".

It has nothing to do with "capitalist societies".

I disagree.. The woman in curlers watches in envy as a Woman in Mink walks by and thinks, "I loathe that woman". And why????? Because she is warm? Because she is not wearing curlers? Or is it because she has something she wants? BINGO! Welcome to the early, developmental, stages of Capitalism.. HENCE: Now Russia is more affectionately known as the Soviet Union and is NO LONGER communist.....

What do you mean by, "You people"? WTF!

Furthermore

There is an old Cuban woman with no shoes on and no food on the table with a moth eaten fur in a box that she treasures.

You've obviously never been to Cuba.....

Allow me to do it for you,
M. Burns

Well, DUH! :rolleyes:

Is there some high priority significance to crediting a cartoon character?

Well, DUH!

Just proper to properly quote is all - nothing more.

Originally posted by fireguy_31
Well, DUH!

Just proper to properly quote is all - nothing more. M. Burns is not a proper quote, as only people who already heard the song would know what you meant anyway. Not to mention the fact that 'M. Burns' is a cartoon character, and is not the 'person' to credit.

M. Burns is not a proper quote, as only people who already heard the song would know what you meant anyway. Not to mention the fact that 'M. Burns' is a cartoon character, and is not the 'person' to credit.

And thy has spokenth...:rolleyes:

Lol. If you are going to try and correct somebody, atleast be correct in your correction. Not saying 'M. Burns' is "properly quote[ing]".
And thy has spokenth... Well, atleast I typed... did you comment just to comment?

Originally posted by otheadp
without PETA animals would be treated even worse than they're treated now

Are you sure? Political pressure seems to result in that old science adage: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Notice how proposals for draconian gun control laws often result in increased gun sales, for example.

Outrageous and offensive political tactics would probably be more likely to result in hate and resentment of the person or organization than in any kind of sympathy for that person's or organization's cause.

Originally posted by Xev
PETA rules.
Hell ya.

Nice:
http://www.furisdead.com/images/mommykills_comichead.jpg

Originally posted by Mako640
First, they compare meat eaters to Nazis... now they tell children that their mothers are animal killers. I am appalled.
I don't get what your saying.
Do you really expect them to sit there and be nice and happy and be all polite and reserved about what is happening?
What do you want them to say?

Furthermore, I still don't understand why nobody seems to think that meat and junk food is as addictive as any narcotic substance.
If I wasn’t addicted to the stuff, I wouldn’t touch it much less eat it throughout the day.

Originally posted by cool skill
Do you really expect them to sit there and be nice and happy and be all polite and reserved about what is happening?

And what is it that is happening? People having eating habits and fashion senses that the self-appointed moralists of the animal rights movement don't like?

Originally posted by cool skill
What do you want them to say?

I'd like them to not say that some kid's mother is going to kill the family pet when they have no evidence to support this claim. I wear leather shoes and a leather jacket, but I'm not planning on torturing and killing my cat.

Originally posted by cool skill
Furthermore, I still don't understand why nobody seems to think that meat and junk food is as addictive as any narcotic substance.

Maybe they don't say it because they don't believe it. I like junk food as much as the next guy, but I'm not addicted. Sometimes I am in the mood for cookies or soda and other times I am not.

Originally posted by cool skill
If I wasn’t addicted to the stuff, I wouldn’t touch it much less eat it throughout the day.

This sounds more like a lack of self-control than a physical addiction.

"I'd like them to not say that some kid's mother is going to kill the family pet when they have no evidence to support this claim. I wear leather shoes and a leather jacket, but I'm not planning on torturing and killing my cat."
It's a good way of getting their point across. PETA’s pretty damn valid. Such organizations don’t arise because of self righteousness that people like to label them with. The capitalists are making a mess, therefore different organizations pop up attempting to clean up after them.

"And what is it that is happening? People having eating habits and fashion senses that the self-appointed moralists of the animal rights movement don't like?"
Weather the moralists like it or not, the unnecessary slaughter of the environment in more ways than just killing animals takes its toll on our well being. That is what is happening if you wish to disregard the moral implications, and apply to practicality. Weather or not we should really give a crap about what is happening does not change the fact that it is happening. PETA promotes awareness that the behavior of our society is quite destructive and scatter brain. You might not think much of it, you might enjoy it. Who knows why we enjoy eating animals, and wearing them around. Either way why would animal killers want to bury such an advertisement? Why not use it to their advantage to promote their destructive beliefs. After all, weather it’s bad for them, and bad for everybody else involved, as long as they enjoy it, we might as well see it as acceptable.

“This sounds more like a lack of self-control than a physical addiction.”
Could be. Who knows.

Honestly, I am torn.

My first impression was that it was a tasteless invasion and they should back off the guerilla attacks on children.

Then I thought, well...
It is the truth.
I would be completely truthful with MY children, and I think parents that lie to thier kids suck, so why should I respect thier parent's decision to keep them in the dark so they can grow up just like them?
So I was in support of this and saw it as an acceptible tactic for a worthy cause.

Then it hit me that this is really not a whole lot different than religious fundamentalists standing outside an abortion clinic with pictures of aborted fetuses on placards, except the intended target is children, not adults.
That disgusted me.

The fact that it disgusted me made me feel like a hypocrite.

Originally posted by Galt
I'd like them to not say that some kid's mother is going to kill the family pet when they have no evidence to support this claim. I wear leather shoes and a leather jacket, but I'm not planning on torturing and killing my cat.

Well, actually, they don't say that.
They insinuate it.
The difference may be subtle, but there is a difference.

all hail peta!..er.... i..i. mean.. cthulhu!
*snarls*

Originally posted by one_raven
Then it hit me that this is really not a whole lot different than religious fundamentalists standing outside an abortion clinic with pictures of aborted fetuses on placards, except the intended target is children, not adults.
That disgusted me.

The fact that it disgusted me made me feel like a hypocrite.

Why wouldn't you fell that way?
It is the same thing. What's so disgusting about the truth? Most proabortionists don't know or want to know things like this. Hitler himself used to put up the curtain on his window while driving throgh the camps so he wouldn't see the terror he was causing. Ignore and be guilt free.

one of the tactics that is often used in these debates is to parallel actions and ideals to genocidal maniacs like poll pot and hitler and a few others who are on par

this does not help the debate as most people have no way to relate to the concept and can easily prove they do nothing like what has been used as an example

people choose to eat meat
some people must eat meat to survive because some people do not want to share
most people place animals (humans not included) lower down on the scale of valid life forms so have no hesitation to kill one for any particular reason
MOST PEOPLE in societies pay for someone else to kill for them
and then claim they do not control the manner in which the product is aquired

population growth of humans is not controlled
it needs to be
virusses and plagues do this in small amounts
war does it in a slightly larger amounts

red meat is addictive
junk food is addictive
types of thinking is addictive
learning about the nature of addiction is a long and involved process
considering people who have studied it for years seem to argue on the concepts.. it would be a little narrowminded and juvenile for a teenager to think they know what it is and is not

how much would a jacket of the same properties cost to be made of artificial fabrics
how much would a pair of shoes cost to be made of the same quality properties as leather cost
there is huge profit margin in the leather and fur industries
and very little in the science end of fabric production

if you are going to live by a rule of capitalism/survival of the fittest then you have no business saying what is ethical and what is not
if you do not provide a social support system for those who can not work or are put out of work from technology then you are worth less than the animals you wear by your own standards
:)

My shoes are made of suede, which is a type of leather. I like them because they're sturdy and not going to tear. But thats just me. And the rest of the cow is used for steak, burgers, and such. Why complain? Humans wouldn't have gotten to the top of the food chain if they hadn't butchered and eaten innocent little animals, or big ones. By the way, I think PeTA is a cover for some pornagraphy group. You ever read the magazine and see all the naked people who don't wear fur, so they must go naked. Ha Ha Ha. :m:

“one of the tactics that is often used in these debates is to parallel actions and ideals to genocidal maniacs like poll pot and hitler and a few others who are on par”
--------------------
Of course.


“people choose to eat meat”
--------------------
Unnecessarily.


“population growth of humans is not controlled”
it needs to be”
--------------------
Population growth needs to be monitored, but not necessarily controlled.
Aside from the ethical dilemmas we face with regards to population control, it is just plain impractical.
Society would do well to monitor population growth patterns, and adjust accordingly.


“red meat is addictive
junk food is addictive”
--------------------
In a sense, you are contradicting what you stated earlier: “people choose to eat meat.”
I still question weather or not I am addicted though. I really think I am because no matter how much I choose not to eat it, the cravings are so strong that I end up going for the beef/cheese/junk.


“there is huge profit margin in the leather and fur industries
and very little in the science end of fabric production”
--------------------
Irrelevant. There is a larger profit in dumping toxic waste into the rivers and lakes as opposed to paying the costs of disposing it properly.


if you are going to live by a rule of capitalism/survival of the fittest then you have no business saying what is ethical and what is not
--------------------
WTF!

Santa Clause wears fur so it can't be evil.

I have nothing against farm animals being slaughtered for their fur/skin.

I'm not sure why directly killing an animal to wear its fur is any more evil than indirectly killing an animal through habitat destruction to make way for a cotton plantation. If anything, wearing the fur is more honest and respectful of the animal who gave its life to shelter you from the elements than wearing an overmanufactured coat whose origins and environmental cost are disguised.

I would think that non-essential consumption is the real evil.

what if the fur could be synthetically grown in a lab of some kind? (so you wouldn't have to strip an animal from it's coat) Would you object still?

synthetic fur... strange..
-ponders-
nahhh.. no one would wear it.

LOL

I'm not sure why directly killing an animal to wear its fur is any more evil than indirectly killing an animal through habitat destruction to make way for a cotton plantation. If anything, wearing the fur is more honest and respectful of the animal who gave its life to shelter you from the elements than wearing an overmanufactured coat whose origins and environmental cost are disguised.

good point, but I'm a tree hugger as well. I dont think the animals choose to honourably shelter us. They dont give their lives, we take them. Humans are gonna be a cancer on this planet no matter what we do. All we can do is try to minimise harm/damage to the remaining natural ecosystems and reduce wastage.

I'm a veggy! Follow my example! (pescovegetarian)

domesticated animals were either meant to serve as food or as companions, so who cares? It does seem kinda disgusting to kill for sport or wear, but who are we to judge others and force our opinions upon them? Telling a hunter to stop killing animals like me telling a priest he cant read the bible; I have no right to do either.

killing animals is completely natural. As mankind should watch his population growth carefully, so too should he watch animals populations, because we dont want to kill them off (which is also completely natural) of course

Humans are gonna be a cancer on this planet no matter what we do.

Give me a break... Lemme guess, you think humans are alien to this planet too right? Why else would you think humans are a "Cancer"???? We belong here just as much as any other species and, in the strive for survival, if we kill a few of earths resources to fulfill our desires so be it... As long as we do NOT exploit it... I mean, Gorillas destroy veggitation in the jungle for shelter but no one labels them as "cancers" of the jungle. So why are we humans different in your assesment??

Please, give me a break....

Here's a site that will keep you very warm without the use of any woodland creatures or other varmits.

http://www.sub-zeroboots.com/pages/alljacketstrousers%20.htm

Give me a break... Lemme guess, you think humans are alien to this planet too right? Why else would you think humans are a "Cancer"???? We belong here just as much as any other species and, in the strive for survival, if we kill a few of earths resources to fulfill our desires so be it... As long as we do NOT exploit it... I mean, Gorillas destroy veggitation in the jungle for shelter but no one labels them as "cancers" of the jungle. So why are we humans different in your assesment??

Please, give me a break....

Merely an analogy dude. A cancer slowly kills its host the more it prospers, not a huge mental leap to make the connection. Exactly what you said, as long as we do NOT exploit it. Take a look around chief, what the fuck do you think is going on in this world if it isn't exploitation? I dont see gorillas chopping down forests to put up banana plantations. They only destroy at a sustainable level. We exploit. Hell no, I don't think we're aliens. This is our home. As we're supposedly the most intelligent species on the planet I consider it our duty to act as caretakers.

Once the animals are whiped out by viruses and deprivement of their habitat ect,...

THEN those virusses WILL turn on humans, even more then they do already,...

Or would you say that there wouldn't be any animals left to get infected?

Animals don't strive for hate nor revenge,...but I think one way or another that they'll get their retribution,....somehow.

Lemme guess, you think humans are alien to this planet too right? Why else would you think humans are a "Cancer"???? We belong here just as much as any other species

There is nothing foreign about a cancer. A cancer is formed of the same material and DNA as the host and is fed and nurtured by the host. The reason a cancer is destructive is that it uses resources of the host in an unsustainable manner. It grows without bounds, without the realization that overuse of the hosts resources will kill both the host and the cancer.

That is why humans are analogous to cancer. We use the resources of the world in an unsustainable manner. Our population and our consumption of resources is following an exponential growth curve, yet the resources of the planet are finite. At some point, likely in our lifetimes, the two will intersect as our needs exceed the capacity of the planet.

WHY MEAT/DAIRY SHOULD BE ILLEGAL

1) Meat and milk products are bad for humans in every way. Unhealthy humans make for an unhealthy society. Unhealthy humans are a strain on society, and therefore affect healthy humans and hinder prosperity.

2) Of course most people think the opposite because of the meat/dairy conspiracy. These very powerful industries manipulate virtually all segments of our society including television ads, schools, medical research, and so on. Therefore, they have pretty much the entire American population believing that meat and milk are actually good for you.

3) As noted here: http://www.themeatrix.com/, factory farms, not story book farms, are used to create milk/dairy products. They continue pumping animals out, mutilating them, and storing them in small areas where they can barely move. In order to keep pumping these animals out, they need to use up acres upon acres of land to make food for them, thousands of gallons of water, loads of energy, and heaps of natural earth resources. All of which could be used to grow enough natural vegan products to feed the world many times over. The toll the earth environment takes to produce vegan products is extremely insignificant compared to the toll it takes to create meat/dairy products. In other words, humanity pays huge amounts in order to cover the cost of creating meat/dairy. Whereas a vegan economy would be practically free of charge.

4) The enormous amounts of excrement and diseases caused by growing mutilated animals adds to the environmental toll.

5) Why is it so difficult for a person to become a vegan? Because the meat and dairy industries use so much land to feed their animals. Land that could easily be used to grow vegan products. Therefore, driving prices for vegan products up. I’d like to eat healthy, and live a healthy natural vegan life, but it is very difficult to afford to. Why? Because meat/dairy eaters want the freedom to eat whatever they want, and therefore support these meat/dairy industries which
A) Screw up the environment making life more difficult for everybody.
B) Make their products and their food pyramid mandatory in every school and public agency that serves food.
C) Make it virtually impossible for people that want to eat real food afford to do so.
D) Would rather spend years of time and research making their garbage taste better. Time and research which could have been used to come up with lots of tasty recipes for natural food products.

It is very important for humans to have the choice to do whatever they want, and eat whatever they want. But we have to understand that being the most intelligent species on the planet, it is our responsibility to take care of it.
2 questions:
* Is our selfish freedom to eat whatever we want really worth the cost our mother earth is paying for it?
** Do we really think we are enjoying our lives by indulging in temporary gratifications that ultimately cause us major sicknesses as opposed to enjoying natural foods that lead to real health, and a balanced state of mind?

Meat and milk products are bad for humans in every way.Wow cool. What a load of unfounded opinion. :sniff sniff: In "every way", huh?

Of course most people think the opposite because of the meat/dairy conspiracy.Oh right. Would that be the giant meat/dairy industry conspiracy that's been around for the last 5000 years or so? People have been eating cattle and dairy since before the advent of 'civilization'. But, of course, the only reason we eat it now is because of the advertising; right? The fact that most people retain the ability to produce lactase into adulthood demonstrates that we have been consuming dairy products long enough for it to affect our evolution. The fact that we cannot derive vitamin B12 from a vegan diet and that our bodies cannot produce it proves the fact that we are omnivores; we need to eat some animal products.

All of which could be used to grow enough natural vegan products to feed the world many times over. The toll the earth environment takes to produce vegan products is extremely insignificant compared to the toll it takes to create meat/dairy products. You mean the "insignificant" environmental impact caused by razing all the natural flora and fauna from acres upon acres of land and replacing them with a single crop species which can only be maintained by the artificial supplementation of nutrients, causes soil erosion, and causes the overpopulation of pest species? Answer a question for me; what activity is primarily responsible for global deforestation? Hint: It's not the lumber industry.

Why is it so difficult for a person to become a vegan?Primarily because humans are omnivores, not herbivores. Granted, we should be eating more insects and fish than cattle, but we are definitively omnivores. Sorry, but eating meat is natural for humans. If one chooses not to eat any animal products one must be extremely diligent in selecting a variety of somewhat rare foodstuffs and also take some dietary supplements.

Do we really think we are enjoying our lives by indulging in temporary gratifications that ultimately cause us major sicknesses as opposed to enjoying natural foods that lead to real health, and a balanced state of mind?While the over-consumption of meat and dairy products has been linked to high-cholesterol and heart disease and there is some amount of evidence that suggests a diet that is high in protein might contribute to other health problems (liver, kidney), a properly balanced diet that includes meat and dairy is not harmful to one's health.

On the other hand, a vegan diet can often be linked to anemia, bleeding gums, hair loss, etc., due to malnutrition and even sometimes such things as vitamin A toxicity due to over-consumption of vegetables.

Sorry cool skill, but a truly healthy and natural human diet requires the consumption of animal products. We should generally eat far less meat than we do and we should have more concern about the quality of everything that we eat. But the fact remains, we are omnivorous and most of your arguments are way overstated.

~Raithere

Why is it so difficult for a person to become a vegan? Because the meat and dairy industries use so much land to feed their animals. Land that could easily be used to grow vegan products. ... I’d like to eat healthy, and live a healthy natural vegan life, but it is very difficult to afford to.

What!? Last time I checked, vegetables were dirt cheap compared to meat. There's a vegan restaurant in town, and for about $5 CAN (that's like $3 US), they give you about 2 pounds of cooked vegetables. And it's a pretty good restaurant, from what I've heard. Indeed, the affordability of veganism is supposedly one of the main selling points of the lifestyle.

Obviously: vaganism and modernday economic systems don't fit well together.

Understandably they have to charge more than that crap they're selling in the supermarkets; since it's more intensive work to provide you with BIO-products then it is with mass-production of chicken wings (for example).

In my town, we have a bio-garden ourselves,...we plant our own food and we learn a great deal about nature.

It's intresting to see however, that people will STILL eat cat's and dogs and chickens and cows, even when the're sure that they are infested with the plague or bronchitis or even wors: sars hehehe.

I think we see two kinds of people here: on the one side:

-people who care about themselves and clearly take intrest in their surounding environment with consiousness and understanding,

-the second group of people, being neglecting, selfisch and NOT-caring. Obviously not taking intrest in their environment.

-And maby some left over people, who don't know what's between heaven and earth and don't know shit from pie to distinguish.

Now, who's fucking up earth you think?

I hope you tads do realize that without predators, such as humans and other creatures, the population growth of the animals you are defending will also become unsustainable. Men have been hunters since the beginning, and this practice helps to maintain a natural balance. Yes I will agree that sometimes things can get out of hand and species can be over hunted, which is why we need to establish a healthy medium. If we were to simply release all animals from captivity and allow their growth to go unchecked, I would imagine they would graze like crazy, moving from place to place and consuming the resources until they are depleted. We keep them in check, much like war, famine, and disease keep us in check.

Animals are not people, they do not think like people, they are not intelligent, and they do not give a SHIT about your high moral standards. Man did not become the dominant species on earth by eating their fucking vegetables ok? We became the dominant species because we hunted, killed, ate, skinned and wore animals. If it comes down to cute little bambi's mother or my survival you can bet your ass I'm going to have a feast that night. Which reminds me I need to get my Hunting License and Tags for next year. Anyone here like elk?

“What a load of unfounded opinion”
It’s not unfounded. There’s tons of scientific proof that water based foods promote health, and that animal based foods are poison.

“People have been eating cattle and dairy since before the advent of 'civilization'.”
Irrelevant.
That is as relevant to the issue as me telling you to look for any other primates that are omnivores.
The fact that people been doing something since the advent of civilization does not mean that they are not being manipulated now.

“But, of course, the only reason we eat it now is because of the advertising; right?”
Yes. If the manipulations hit people as hard with the truth as they do with their lies, I’m pretty sure they would follow along.

“demonstrates that we have been consuming dairy products long enough for it to affect our evolution.”
The fact that we have to evolve in order to tolerate something:
A. Means that it is a poison.
B. Does not mean that we are fully capable of handling it. It’s still a poison.

“The fact that we cannot derive vitamin B12 from a vegan diet”
Wrong.

“and that our bodies cannot produce it proves the fact that we are omnivores.”
It doesn’t prove anything.

“You mean the "insignificant" environmental impact caused by”
Yes. Insignificant. Compared to the damage we cause producing meat/dairy products, very insignificant.

“If one chooses not to eat any animal products one must be extremely diligent in selecting a variety of somewhat rare foodstuffs and also take some dietary supplements.”
Of course one must be very diligent unless they live in a society that is not riddled with meat/dairy products on every corner.

“a properly balanced diet that includes meat and dairy is not harmful to one's health.”
Any diet that includes poison may not be very harmful, but it does do damage.

“On the other hand, a vegan diet can often be linked to anemia, bleeding gums, hair loss, etc., due to malnutrition and even sometimes such things as vitamin A toxicity due to over-consumption of vegetables.
Sorry cool skill, but a truly healthy and natural human diet requires the consumption of animal products.”
Meat products are not required. Nor are they beneficial in any way.


“What!? Last time I checked, vegetables were dirt cheap compared to meat. There's a vegan restaurant in town, and for about $5 CAN (that's like $3 US), they give you about 2 pounds of cooked vegetables. And it's a pretty good restaurant, from what I've heard.”
That’s brand new to me.
Maybe you canideeins have it differently because down here, any vegetable products especially organic costs way more than any meat/dairy/processed stuff.
Maybe I should move oot to Canada.

What really disgusts me about this whole thing is that they are showing this crap to little kids. I mean wtf

Every fucking time I must read an uninformed opinion:

"man have been hunters from the beginning"

If you asshole would do at least 'some' background check on that,...you would come to the conclusion that we were plant eaters for thousands of years,...

After devastating disasters to our planet, we had to come down and started living by lakes, shores and sea,...

Our diet became more varied along the way,....

It's not until the ICE-AGE '(you stupid fucking moron)' (don't mind this cursing: I'm having a acute surge of tourrette's syndrome) where was I: It was not until the ICE AGE that plant life got less, in fact; it nearly completely disapeared, so in effect: we began to eat more meat because we had too:

from this time we can see that bloodtype 'O' has become into being: they are (surprisingly) more suited for digesting meat.

So it was every time: we preyed on meat just in EMERGENCIES okay,...that doesn't mean we where, we are or ever will be:

fucking friggin CARNIVORES

It's an outright LIE by the meat industry.

Have I woken you up yet,..:)

PETA cares bout animals. Animals drain the earth of some resources. Yeat these resources are also one that human needs. Funny to think.

is it just me or does PETA often only go for the cute animals? I dont know. Dont care too much for PETA since their Holocaust/Chicken Farm deal and their newest, Your Mommy Kills Animals because she is greedy. Do they honestly think that by inciting anger instead of using logic that they can change the world? Or do they do that because they have nothing logical to go on? Like I said, I dont know much about PETA and Ill probably hear about it from someone out there about how I am an ill informed idiot who should stay in his corner of the forum. BUt Oh well. Ill live with it.

There?s tons of scientific proof that water based foods promote health, and
that animal based foods are poison.As is typical with vegan/vegitarian moralists you vastly overstate the case, cool skill. Yes, animal products do contain toxins. Guess what, so do plants.

The fact that people been doing something since the advent of civilization does not mean that they are not being manipulated now.Indeed this is true but all you've provided so far is just more manipulation. The cattle industry would have us eating steaks and drinking milk at every meal. You'd have us all grazing in the backyard. Neither extreme is particularly healthy and as is typical the truth lies somewhere in-between. Too much steak is bad for you but so are too many carrots. When it comes down to it, the USDA food pyramid is pretty accurate (go figure, it was developed by nutritionists). It recommends that people eat mostly grains and
starches, then fruits and vegetables, then meat and dairy, and least of all fats and sugars.

Yes. If the manipulations hit people as hard with the truth as they do with their lies, I?m pretty sure they would follow along.What country do you live in because it's not the same one I do. I'm bombarded with dietary advice from the "Got Milk" campaign to PETA's last bizarre propaganda stunt. The problem is figuring out what's accurate. The best thing IMO is to go back to biology and find out what our nutritional requirements actually are and what is the best way of meeting those requirements.

The fact that we have to evolve in order to tolerate something:
A. Means that it is a poison.
B. Does not mean that we are fully capable of handling it. It?s still a poison.No, species will also evolve to take advantage of new or previously unavailable resources.
A. No, it does not mean that it's poison. People that do not produce lactase just have some difficulty digesting the sugars in milk.
B. All humans produce lactase during infancy but since milk from other species has become an available resource most humans have evolved to continue lactase production into adulthood so as to make better use of this resource.

Wrong.No. I'm not. If you don't believe me listen to these vegan information sites:

"The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements.
...
Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate include human gut bacteria, spirulina, dried nori, barley grass and most other seaweeds. Several studies of raw food vegans have shown that raw food offers no special protection.
Reports that B12 has been measured in a food are not enough to qualify that food as a reliable B12 source. It is difficult to distinguish true B12 from analogues that can disrupt B12 metabolism. Even if true B12 is present in a food, it may be rendered ineffective if analogues are present in comparable amounts to the true B12. There is only one reliable test for a B12 source
- does it consistently prevent and correct deficiency? Anyone proposing a particular food as a B12 source should be challenged to present such evidence."
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

"Vitamin B12 is needed for cell division and blood formation. Plant foods do not contain vitamin B12 except when they are contaminated by microorganisms. Thus, vegans need to look to other sources to get vitamin B12 in their diet."
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

"Vitamin B12 is found primarily in meat, dairy products and eggs and is absent from plant foods. Considerable research has been carried out into possible plant sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae such as spirulina have all been proposed as containing significant amounts of B12. However, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be in a form unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources."
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html

I should also mention that while plants do contain other necessary vitamins and elements several have the same problem with absorption as is mentioned in that list site quote. It is quite clear that biologically humans are not herbivores.

Yes. Insignificant. Compared to the damage we cause producing meat/dairy products, very insignificant.No, it's not insignificant, the problems I mentioned are quite large. While the dairy farms are indeed problematic most beef cattle are ranch raised on natural fauna supplemented with feed corn and hay. Again, groups like PETA will pick out the worst
scenarios and display them as if they were true across the board. Some parts of the ranching industry need to be revamped, others already have been, and some are pretty well handled already. Same thing goes for the farming industry except in certain areas of the world where farmers are methodically destroying the surrounding ecosystem.

Of course one must be very diligent unless they live in a society that is not riddled with meat/dairy products on every corner.No, one must be diligent regardless. One needs to make sure to eat a variety of produce (including nuts, beans, seaweed, and soybean products) to cover the same nutritional requirements one receives from just eating a steak or a burger
every once in a while.

Maybe you canideeins have it differently because down here, any vegetable products especially organic costs way more than any meat/dairy/processed stuff. Maybe I should move oot to Canada.I don't know where the hell you live. Last I checked (yesterday) produce such as carrots, broccoli, and oranges were going for about half the price as steak. Unless, of course, you're foolish enough to buy organic produce then the cost is about the same (ever wonder why?).

~Raithere

(Edit: too weird, I deleted and reposted because the word poison-ed kept coming up as asterisks; watch: ********.)

Raithere:

I challenge you:

You'll eat your occasionally steak,

and I'll continue to be a pesco-vegetarian,...(for several years already)

We'll see who get's sick.
Humans don't need meat IMO!
humans DO need organic plant food,
humans are more herbivore than that they are carnivore

I dare you to go on a carnivorious diet and it won't take long for you to die.

I sincerely doubt your opinion wich you present as a fact.

B12 can be made artificially: by means of simple synthetic reaction: so NO MEAT IS NEEDED.
ALL vitamins present in plants can be absorbed by the human digesting system:
on the contrary to what is present in meat, namely: proteïns and fibers,...

In meat, there are NO vitamins that can be absorbed,...

and I'll continue to be a pesco-vegetarianLast I checked fish belonged to the Kingdom Animalia, which means you eat meat and are not a vegan. Vegan's eat only plant matter and consume no animal products at all. It is quite likely that the only major difference between your diet and mine is that the only meat you eat is fish while I will eat other meats as well as fish.

We'll see who get's sick.I have had no serious illnesses (as in having to take medicine, see a doctor, or miss work) for about 12 years, which was the last time I had the flu. I'll take your bet.

Humans don't need meat IMO!Then why do you eat it?

humans DO need organic plant food,Indeed. When have I ever said otherwise?

humans are more herbivore than that they are carnivoreHuman's should eat more produce than meat but humans are neither herbivores nor carnivores. Humans are omnivores.

I sincerely doubt your opinion wich you present as a fact.I suggest you try checking the facts because your posts contain some serious errors.

B12 can be made artificially: by means of simple synthetic reactionYou need to read more thoroughly. I already said that vegans need to artificially supplement their diets with B12. People who eat meat get theirs naturally.

ALL vitamins present in plants can be absorbed by the human digesting systemQuite wrong, particularly regarding B12. If you disbelieve me go check the sites I posted earlier.

In meat, there are NO vitamins that can be absorbed,...You seem to like being wrong. Beef, is in fact one of the best sources for some essential nutrients:

"A 3 oz. serving of beef includes less than 10% of the calories in a 2000 calorie per day diet as well as these important nutrients percentages of these adult Recommended Daily Allowances (RDA)
50% of the protein
39% of the zinc
37% of the B12
18% of the Niacin
16% of the B6
14% of the iron
• The iron found in beef is heme iron, which is highly digestible and easily absorbed by the human body.
• Beef is an excellent source of amino acids, including those that contain sulfur.
• Beef contains numerous trace minerals such as zinc, cobalt, magnesium, and phosphorus, which are important in enzymatic and immune functions.
• The nutrient density of beef is greater than that of other foods.
• The cholesterol levels found in meat are unrelated to blood cholesterol levels in normal individuals.
• Fat levels in beef are declining due to improved usage of genetics and more fat trimming at the retail level.
http://www.premiumqualityfoods.com/consumers/beef_facts.cfm

~Raithere

I've got a site for you,...

http://users.telenet.be/myprojects/gezondevoeding/voeding/vegan.html

Have fun,...

Scrabble;
A cancer slowly kills its host the more it prospers, not a huge mental leap to make the connection.

Sorry "dude", this chief does find it a huge mental leap. Why? Because;

Porf...sez;

It grows without bounds, without the realization that overuse of the hosts resources will kill both the host and the cancer.

We are aware, no? Therefore a huge mental leap for this chief.

If you would comment on the context of my response - the ENTIRE response - you'd see the gigantic leap you both made by assuming what it was I was trying to say. Remember folks, this thread is about PETA and animal fur not cancer... Sheeeesh!

There's no valid argument presented, for eating meat

There's no valid argument presented, for eating meat1. It's the most efficient way to meet certain nutritional requirements.
2. Without meat many more people would suffer malnutrition than already do.
3. Humans are omnivores. As such eating meat is appropriate to our species.
4. It tastes good, who the fuck are you to tell me that I shouldn't.

~Raithere

I've got a site for youSorry. I can't read German. You'll have to present your own argument or if you cannot then you'll have to find an English site.

~Raithere

P.S. Why don't you actually try addressing my points next time.

(edited to add P.S.)

Fukushi

There's no valid argument presented, for eating meat

I'll try.

The Innu of Canada's high Arctic have thrived for hundreds of years - the Thule for thousands - on what the land provided. The Innu of Canada's high Arctic - and the Thule - could not have thrived (survived) without the fruits of the land. The main source of food provided by the land, and the only source rich enough in essential viatamines and nutrients, was/is meat. The Innu and Thule survived (thrived) by eating meat. Therefor, eating meat was essential for survival.

Does that cut it? If not, let me know where the blanks should be filled in and I'll do it.

“Too much steak is bad for you”
Not “too much.”
Steak is bad for you period.

“but so are too many carrots.”
Yes. Too many carrots is bad for you.

“When it comes down to it, the USDA food pyramid is pretty accurate”
The USDA food pyramid is the biggest joke on the planet, and completely inaccurate.

“What country do you live in because it's not the same one I do.”
USA. “Got Milk” is everywhere. The food pyramid scam is everywhere. Cheese ads are everywhere. They manipulate people into thinking that these products are beneficial.

“The best thing IMO is to go back to biology and find out what our nutritional requirements actually are and what is the best way of meeting those requirements.”
OK. How far?

“No, species will also evolve to take advantage of new or previously unavailable resources.”
Regardless, humans would not need to adapt to something that was already good for them.
Further more, regardless of how far evolution has gone, and supposedly gave us the ability to tolerate it, that does not negate it from being a poison.

Raithere: we cannot derive vitamin B12 from a vegan diet
cool skill: Wrong.
Raithere: The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements.
Therefore: we can derive vitamin B12 from a vegan diet

It seems there's always at least one tired old myth making the rounds about vegetarianism. Twenty years ago, it was the "protein deficiency" myth. Now that the protein myth has been completely discredited, these days the vitamin B12 myth occasionally surfaces.

A small number of people develop B12 deficiencies, most of them not vegans, just like people with deficiencies in every other type of vitamin and mineral.

So how could anyone develop pernicious anemia when B12 intake requirements are so low, and when the liver stores so much that it takes years for a deficiency to develop? The reason touted for the B12 myth is that B12 is found primarily in animal foods. Very few plant foods provide good sources of B12, they say. In a way that's true, but only because the source of B12 is not plants OR animals; neither manufacture their own B12. In the B12 reality, Bacteria are the B12 producers on which both plants and animals rely. And in humans, that bacteria doesn't necessarily come from plants -- the mouth, upper intestine, and lower intestine all contain bacteria that produce B12. However, it's unknown if enough B12 to meet the daily requirement comes from internal sources of B12. More likely, they produce some, and the rest comes in with food and water consumed.

Who knows where the hell this silly b12 deficiency myth came from.

“It is quite clear that biologically humans are not herbivores.”
The only thing that is clear is that these myths make people think that humans are omnivores that require animal products.

“Same thing goes for the farming industry except in certain areas of the world where farmers are methodically destroying the surrounding ecosystem.”
Yes, but it is because of the meat/dairy industry that these farmers destroy the eco system. The amount of resources used in order for farmers to continue pumping out animal products is unfathomable.
If we weren’t producing these animal products, we wouldn’t have to use minutely as much resources.

“One needs to make sure to eat a variety of produce (including nuts, beans, seaweed, and soybean products) to cover the same nutritional requirements one receives from just eating a steak or a burger
every once in a while.”
Wrong. What the hell are you on. Or are you completely unaware of the protein myth? Everybody knows that eating pretty any vegetables provide humans with more than enough protein for their diet. That myth has been totally defunct for ages.

I personally think peta can do whatever it wants market etc etc.
But if I m wearing a fur coat and walking down the stree and someone
spraypaints me I will skin them and use their skin as a coat instead.
Sparypainting just to prove a point is assault and thats going overboard.

Just to prove a point. Most fur comes from farmed fur animals...
People in russia wear fur coats and accessories not because its fashionable and looks nice which it does but because its warm in the winter. And if some animal which we eat has to die for it so be it... Russia also has ermin farms which make most of this fur material. There is a huge fur industry all across europe netherlands has a big company that has fur farms all throughout europe and the united states even has fur farms for their fur industry. Just a few months ago I remember some moron activist freed a 1000 minks or so in a farm in new jersey i think dont remember the state.

And we as people have things called incisors or k-nines they are teeth specificly evolved since we were spawned to eat meat... So by not eating meat you are in fact defying nature. I for one will not go against nature in the end it always wins...

Eating meat is going against nature. Duh.

Steak is bad for you period.Steak is no more bad for you than anything else really. People just tend to consume too much of it which sometimes causes health problems. And technically, it's not so much the over-consumption of meat that causes problems but the over-consumption of fat. Lean animal products such as fish, poultry, and insects have little to no adverse health effects.

The USDA food pyramid is the biggest joke on the planet, and completely inaccurate.Last I checked, nutritionists and doctors all over the world support it as a healthy diet. I'll take their word over yours and a few nay-sayers.

USA. “Got Milk” is everywhere. The food pyramid scam is everywhere. Cheese ads are everywhere.And PETA is in the news every couple of weeks and there are a multitude of publications and articles regarding diet and nutrition. If all you're doing is scoping the TV ads and billboards I might agree but anyone who is ignorant of the multitude of various viewpoints has their head in the sand.

OK. How far?What do you mean?

Regardless, humans would not need to adapt to something that was already good for them.This is nonsensical. If we didn't adapt we'd still be walking on all fours, picking nits off of each other's hairy bodies, and living in Africa. There is nothing wrong or unnatural about adapting, quite the reverse.

Further more, regardless of how far evolution has gone, and supposedly gave us the ability to tolerate it, that does not negate it from being a poison.Where the heck are you getting this from? How do you classify meat and dairy products as poison? People eat these foods every day and live to a ripe old age. If it were poison, they'd be dropping like flies, not living to 90. If meat is so bad for you and a vegan diet is so good for you how come we do not see vegans all outliving others by years and years? You want to change how people eat? Prove that people will live an extra 20 years by not eating meat, until then there is little to discuss. People can live healthy long lives eating meat.

A small number of people develop B12 deficiencies, most of them not vegans, just like people with deficiencies in every other type of vitamin and mineral.That's because they take supplements or eat fortified foods. Typically these are derived from bacteria or yeast cultures.

The scenario of humans evolving as herbivores you present simply does not fit the available facts. Not only would these herbivorous humans have had to forage for a wide variety of legumes, vegetables, grains, fruits and nuts but they would have had to manufacture soybean or rapeseed oils for essential amino acids, harvest seaweed for iodine (or live in a local with a very high iodine content in the soil), and produce a yeast or bacteria culture of some sort for B12. The alternative to all of this is to live off the local flora and occasionally eat animals and insects.

The only reason that vegans can remain healthy is because of civilization. Travel, trade, and food industries have made available a wide enough spectrum of plant and other non-animal foods that they can meet their dietary needs. If you were to venture into the local wilderness and attempt a vegan diet, eating only that which you could forage you would become malnourished and die. Or you could supplement your grazing with an occasional animal and live healthily anywhere.

I'm not saying that a vegan diet is impossible. Today, when you can purchase a tremendous variety of foods from all over the world at a local store it is possible but without civilized infrastructure it is not. If you choose a vegan diet because you think it is healthier or for moral reasons, fine, I have no problem with that. But don't try to tell me that humans evolved as herbivores because they didn't.

The biological evidence is right there in plain facts regarding our nutritional requirements. Anthropological, archeological, and paleontological evidence shows that hunting was a fact of human existence back as far as humans can be identified and in all cultures. Humans eat meat; we have been doing so for as long as we have been even remotely human.

Yes, but it is because of the meat/dairy industry that these farmers destroy the eco system. The amount of resources used in order for farmers to continue pumping out animal products is unfathomable. If we weren’t producing these animal products, we wouldn’t have to use minutely as much resources.Again, you're relying upon vastly over-exaggerated figures. PETA's estimate that 45% of agricultural land goes to feed livestock is blatantly false. Looking at the U.S. production rankings* we find that only about 28% goes towards producing animal feed.

Additionally, there is the assumption that land that is good for growing grass and hay would be equally productive with crops that are edible by humans. Much of the time such land is not suitable for other crops. This turns vast areas of land that would be all but useless in the production of food for humans into a usable resource.

* Source: http://www.usda.gov/nass/pubs/ranking/usrank.htm

We're overworking local ecologies in any number of ways and it's something we do need to take a look at. One possible solution in some areas may be integrated crop/livestock systems. http://www.mandan.ars.usda.gov/Homeroot/Integrated.htm

~Raithere