http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6255287.stm

Whats your take on this, is this another highly educated muslim bang on the nail again, do muslims have more rights to be in Oz than the local white asses?

If so do we consider Oz a muslim country now?
Should shaira law be mandatory in Oz, should booze be banned?

Is it time for a muslim prime minister, to take charge there, perhaps even the cleric in question here, who also considers Oz women as uncovered meat who deserved to be raped.

Some consider these views as stone age, but we must remember these clerics are highly educated holy men.

Muslim bashing has been done 1,000 times over. BORING. Anything in that fear filled head of yours that isn't about stereotyping an entire religion into a handful of fundies? Didn't think so.

Just more proof that the problem lies in the Islamic Bigoted way of thinking, so much for the lie of Moslem tolerance. It's time the Moslems take their trouble makes and strip them of their authority, and show the rest of the world that they are peaceful, but I doubt that will happen, Sam will scream like a banshee, about how horrible us westerners are treating her poor Islamic masters.

Well, Genji, Hilali has a lot of support in his community. Why is that? Accident?

Muslim bashing has been done 1,000 times over. BORING. Anything in that fear filled head of yours that isn't about stereotyping an entire religion into a handful of fundies? Didn't think so.



I dont find anything in my post that bashes muslims, please show me?

I even suggested the cleric in question could be PM of OZ, i see nothing wrong in his comments on women or on the local white ass convicts, highly educated clerics like these should be running the United Nations, there views are way beyound us mere mortals.

I am sure if he ran for PM in OZ he would win, he would get the woman vote for sure, & oz men are sick of fosters & castle main forex, i hold this cleric & others worldwide as the prophets of our time, as they dish out these pearls of wisdom, we can only bow to these superior beings.

Anything in that fear filled head of yours that isn't about stereotyping an entire religion into a handful of fundies? .

Do you think one day we might here from that entire religion, other than from a "handful of fundies" daily, or i forgot its the worldwide media conspiracy that only reports negative islam, & ignores the daily demonstrations against terroism in egypt & iran & syria every day, funny thing is these imaginary demo's are not reported on there tv neither could it be there are none ever?

Muslim bashing has been done 1,000 times over. BORING. Anything in that fear filled head of yours that isn't about stereotyping an entire religion into a handful of fundies? Didn't think so.

Well, he is the leader of Australia's muslims.

I might add that he's recently added to his extremist comments with concentrated stupidity. It makes a nice extremist broth.

Hilali in hot water again
January 11, 2007

Australia's controversial mufti Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali has landed himself in hot water again, this time by saying Australian Muslims are more entitled to the country than those with a convict heritage.

Prime Minister John Howard said today he expected the mufti's comments to amuse Australians, however one Muslim leader was quick to apologise for the Sheikh.

Speaking in Arabic on Egyptian television Sheikh Hilali said that white Australians arrived in the country shackled as convicts.

"We (Muslims) came as free people. We bought our own tickets. We are entitled to Australia more than they are," he said.

The mufti was on the Egyptian chat show explaining the controversy last year over his comments likening immodestly-dressed women to uncovered meat.

But according to the translation, he said the controversy was a white conspiracy [Darn whities - Geoff] aimed at terrorising Australian Muslims.

Mr Howard laughed off the spiritual leader's convict comments.

"I think it will bring a wry smile to the face of Australians who don't actually feel the least bit offended that many of our ancestors came here as convicts," Mr Howard told reporters in Sydney today.

"It's almost a badge of honour for many Australians."

Funnily enough, I don't think I'd flap my yap so wildly, being surrounded by the descendants of exiled felons. But that's just me.

But while the convict jibes might be forgiven by some, as they are when levelled by English cricket fans, the Sheikh's comments are expected to cause outrage in some quarters - especially the claim that white Australians "are the biggest liars".

Can you feel the love? Aww.

And then there was his claim that outrage over his controversial meat sermon was "a calculated conspiracy", that started with him, "in order to bring the Islamic community to its knees".

Yes. We admit it. The first step was getting him to open his big, fat mouth and admit to his real persective on social crime. Tricky one that was. (Psst: the secret is to put a microphone in front of his face. Don't tell anyone.)

He also said "Australian law guarantees freedoms up to a crazy level", when reportedly referring to anti-Muslim courts and the harsh sentencing of a Muslim gang rapist in Sydney.

I know, it's horrible, isn't it? I mean, what kind of world is it we're living in where a gang of honest, Allah-fearing, soccer-loving muslim youths get sentenced merely for the noble gesture of humiliating and raping a couple of Western sluts? Come on. What's up with that? Law? Humanity? Pfft.

Note that it wasn't: Australian law overreacts to purported crimes. Or: Australian law assumes extra-evidentiary guilt. No. It was: Australian law guarantees rights to an absurd level. Meaning: yes, the punks did it, but come on, they shouldn't have been sentenced so hard. It amounts to a tacit admission of guilt and plea for 'reasonability', and is all the sicker thereby.

Islamic Friendship Association president Keysar Trad today criticised and defended his close friend, saying some of his comments were "ill-advised".

Oh well that explains everything Keysar. Thanks for coming out. "Ill-advised." Fine wordage.

"I believe his intention was to indicate that we choose to be in Australia because we love Australia, because his Egyptian interviewers were asking him why he stays and puts up with the controversy here," Mr Trad said.

"He was defending Australia, but saying sometimes democracy fails, and the reaction to his comments put a lie to the democratic principle of free speech.

"But I, as a Muslim Australian, do feel the need to apologise for anyone who is offended by these comments."

Mr Trad also questioned the accuracy of the translation, saying the mufti's opponents were waiting with malicious intent to misrepresent his comments.

"It's evident by the controversy that has erupted again that there are people out there watching every comment he makes," Mr Trad said.

Well, how thoughtless of them.

He's just a lil' ol' religious fascist from Oz.
Ain't never meanin' no harm.
Just wants t' get on with his jihad and make the kufr curse th' day they waz born.

To say nothing of the worsening state of things in the UK:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_method=full%26objectid=18442715%26siteid=94762-name_page.html

A thread already exists dealing with this issue.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=62044

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_method=full%26objectid=18442715%26siteid=94762-name_page.html

Women, too, are inferior in Abu Usamah's eyes. He tells his audience: "Allah has created the woman - even if she gets a PhD - deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man."

One preacher there said that marrying your daughter off before she reaches puberty is permissible in Islam.

On one DVD, filmed in a mosque run by a national Islamic charity - which claims to be committed to moderation - a speaker said girls should be "forced" to wear the hijab and, shockingly, adds: "If she doesn't wear hijab, we hit her."

Dr Mian wants to see religious policemen roaming our streets, modelled on the feared Saudi Arabian force.


"King, Queen, House of Commons... if you accept it, you are a part of it," says Dr Ijaz Mian. "If you don't accept it, you have to dismantle it.
"So you being a Muslim, you have to fix a target. There will be no House of Commons. From that White House to this Black House, we know we have to dismantle it.
"Muslims must grow in strength... then take over."



***********


Pearls of wisdom from your link geoff, where muslim clerics are teaching them in derby & uk's biggest mosque birmingham.


I have to agree with these pearls, we should dismantle the fabric of uk society, we should bow to the intelligence of these people, fair enough a muslim has never invented anything or contributed anything to medicine or science, but that is a minor issue here.

There contribution to the world is there religous police, & the high esteem which they hold there women, remember geoff there is always honour in a honour killing there are hundreds a year in the uk, & a woman should be hit if she does not cover up, & anyone who disagrees with that shoulkd be arrested by the uk religous police.


A leading uk muslim called for muslim healthcare in the uk yesterday, bypassing the nhs i agree we should cater only for muslims, fuck buddhists, catholics, etc, muslims should come 1st for healthcare in the uk.

Dont you love the way they put down women? i mean, god :P

women are far superior to men in every aspect much physically, and i'm not just saying that and i'm not an anti-sexist kinda guy, but really they could do so much better.

Look at bees.

Look at lions.

Look at lemurs.

The female side of the human race can think and act better than any male, in most aspects besides physical.

I dont see where islam got its ideas, but its some far-out stuff.

Dont you love the way they put down women? i mean, god :P

women are far superior to men in every aspect much physically, and i'm not just saying that and i'm not an anti-sexist kinda guy, but really they could do so much better.

Look at bees.

Look at lions.

Look at lemurs.

The female side of the human race can think and act better than any male, in most aspects besides physical.

I dont see where islam got its ideas, but its some far-out stuff.



Well in pakistan a woman can be raped & if she reports it to the police they ignore her as a liar, & in some tribal areas she can be forced to marry the rapist, i firmly believe this is the correct code of coduct here a man should always be trusted 1st, western culture could learn alot from some muslim countries.

It would certainly do away with rape centres, & rape cases in the uk, & like in muslim countries our rape figures would be zero, the police would welcome those statistics.

What age is female puberty the cleric in the uk thinks we should be allowed to marry them when they reach it in the UK, i know females have given birth when they are as young as 9, so my guess is 8 or 9 for puberty, so once again another amazing humane idea from a cleric marry girls when they are 8 or above in the UK, well if it was good enough for there prophet who did just that, it must be good for all uk citizens.

Muslim bashing has been done 1,000 times over. BORING. Anything in that fear filled head of yours that isn't about stereotyping an entire religion into a handful of fundies? Didn't think so.the only ones bashing Muslims are Muslim leaders & Muslims' actions.
And if it really bores you, ignore it, Can you do that?

Is it really up to the Muslim communities to get rid of this guy? He's just some nutty Egyptian with a middle eastern perspective on society in general. Which is quite chauvinistic – that said, many men are chauvinistic. My grandpa's generation was quite chauvinistic.

Anyway, I would love it if the religious communities really shuned this guy when he returns and he ended up having to work at McDonalds!

I'd love it :)

Everyone agrees he’s a jackass,

Michael

PS: It's good there are people like him so that they can be publicly shamed and thus their position slowly eroded as moderate Muslims take power.

Is it really up to the Muslim communities to get rid of this guy? He's just some nutty Egyptian with a middle eastern perspective on society in general. Which is quite chauvinistic – that said, many men are chauvinistic. My grandpa's generation was quite chauvinistic.

Anyway, I would love it if the religious communities really shuned this guy when he returns and he ended up having to work at McDonalds!

I'd love it :)

Everyone agrees he’s a jackass,

Michael

PS: It's good there are people like him so that they can be publicly shamed and thus their position slowly eroded as moderate Muslims take power.



Michael is there such a thing as modearate muslims?

Even so called moderate muslims in the uk let there guard down & say the most disgusting things,


Case in point Michael Sir Iqbal Sacranie leader of the muslim council of britain:
***********
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/4166402.stm


MCB secretary general Sir Iqbal Sacranie was asked after the 7 July attacks to help set up a task force to root out extremism in Britain's Muslim communities.

After meeting Tony Blair in Downing Street on 19 July he said: "The community is determined to deal with this issue head on."

But an investigation by Panorama reporter John Ware found groups affiliated to the MCB promoting anti-Semitic views, the belief that Islam is a superior ideology to secular British values and the view that Christians and Jews are conspiring to undermine Islam.

In an interview with Mr Ware, Sir Iqbal refused to disown a group known as Al-e-Hadith, which says the ways of Christians and Jews "are based on sick or deviant views" and that "imitating the Kuffar [non-Muslims] leads to a permanent abode in hellfire".


********

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4579146.stm


Last Updated: Tuesday, 3 January 2006, 22:26 GMT


E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Muslim head says gays 'harmful'



Sir Iqbal Sacranie said everyone's views should be heard

A British Muslim leader has told the BBC he believes homosexuality is "not acceptable" and denounced new same-sex civil partnerships as "harmful".

Head of the Muslim Council of Britain Sir Iqbal Sacranie said introducing the partnerships did "not augur well" for building the foundations of society.


if you look into the scientific evidence that has been available in terms of the forms of various other illnesses and diseases that are there, surely it points out that where homosexuality is practised there is a greater concern in that area."


**************


"groups affiliated to the MCB promoting anti-Semitic views, the belief that Islam is a superior ideology to secular British values and the view that Christians and Jews are conspiring to undermine Islam."



Michael is this is your idea of modearate muslims, this guy knighted by the Queen like me, a supposed intelligent peace loving muslim, yet his hands are dirty with racist & bigotted views, michael you need to take your rose petal coloured glasses off & see moderate muslims for what they are...

vincent,

This is simply typical monotheism. It's quite hard to sell the idea your monotheism is better than another without putting that another one down in some way. Islam’s most basic tenet is that Xians and Jews were in error and thus God had to send down yet another Prophet to spell it out again (why this one was supposed to be the last is beyond me?!?! Well actually that would be Baha’i but anyway…..). Ask any true Xian if worshipping polytheistic Hindu deities is superior, equal to, or below the doctrines of Christ and see what answer you get.

Michael

Is it really up to the Muslim communities to get rid of this guy? He's just some nutty Egyptian with a middle eastern perspective on society in general. Which is quite chauvinistic – that said, many men are chauvinistic. My grandpa's generation was quite chauvinistic.

Anyway, I would love it if the religious communities really shuned this guy when he returns and he ended up having to work at McDonalds!

I'd love it :)

Everyone agrees he’s a jackass,

Michael

PS: It's good there are people like him so that they can be publicly shamed and thus their position slowly eroded as moderate Muslims take power.

The problem is, he clearly isn't shamed. He doesn't care, and he has literally thousands of supporters - maybe tens of thousands. It's all well and good to imagine his public humilation. Problem is, he doesn't think he has been.

Well, he may not be shamed but many of the Aussie Muslims he represents are ashamed for him. Especially young female Aussies. The last time he did this a few where on TV calling him an imbecile.

It was quite funny really,

Regardless, we live in pluralistic societies and so the best thing we can do is to shame the hell out of anyone who acts as such. Then we give support to Muslims who support the commonly held views of our society. Eventually, through the magic of TV induced brainwashing, Muslims will think anyone with an attitude like this jackass's is just that – a jackass!

Michael


PS: Another thing we need to do is support homegrown Aussie Muslims to become leaders. Why should some pathetic uneducated dimwit from the Middle East with a chauvinistic bullshit attitude be leading services here in Australia? Clearly he needn’t be here and shouldn’t be teaching Aussie's to think. He's attitude is through back from when humanoids were making the transition from pre-historic Apes! :) Leave him in Egypt.

vincent,

This is simply typical monotheism. It's quite hard to sell the idea your monotheism is better than another without putting that another one down in some way. Islam’s most basic tenet is that Xians and Jews were in error and thus God had to send down yet another Prophet to spell it out again (why this one was supposed to be the last is beyond me?!?! Well actually that would be Baha’i but anyway…..). Ask any true Xian if worshipping polytheistic Hindu deities is superior, equal to, or below the doctrines of Christ and see what answer you get.

Michael

"if you look into the scientific evidence that has been available in terms of the forms of various other illnesses and diseases that are there, surely it points out that where homosexuality is practised there is a greater concern in that area"


Michael this is a crock of shit, there is no scientific evidence that gays are spreading more sexual diseases than hetrosexuals, the evidence is quite the opposite.


As for this Sir & his views on islam being superior, another crock of shit, you seem to think other religons think the same, i am catholic, i also believe in buddhism, i find nothing superior in any religon, religon is a belief not a status symbol or a badge of honour those like Sir Iqbal Sacranie who think islam is superior, just show how stupid & uneducated they are>

Michael you ducked my question you think there are moderate muslims, but where are they, i give you a example of the leader of the muslims in the uk, & what a bigot he is, michael there are very few moderate muslims, the king of jordan is one of the few i know, most supposed moderates sooner or later show there ugly side, towards jews or gays if you talk to them long enough.

"if you look into the scientific evidence that has been available in terms of the forms of various other illnesses and diseases that are there, surely it points out that where homosexuality is practised there is a greater concern in that area"


Michael this is a crock of shit, there is no scientific evidence that gays are spreading more sexual diseases than hetrosexuals, the evidence is quite the opposite. Hey you’re preaching to the choir here. I think it’s fine for two adults to be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual etc…

As for this Sir & his views on islam being superior, another crock of shit, you seem to think other religons think the same, i am catholic, i also believe in buddhism, i find nothing superior in any religon, religon is a belief not a status symbol or a badge of honour those like Sir Iqbal Sacranie who think islam is superior, just show how stupid & uneducated they are>.OK, as a Catholic do you feel Islam is equal to, lower than, or superior to Catholicism? What about Protestants? Are they all equal?

Actually, most Catholics I know are pretty open minded in regards to religion. I personally think Buddhism is the most enlightened but that’s from meeting people of various religious beliefs and speaking with them. Just my opinion. I’m Atheist anyhow.

Michael you ducked my question you think there are moderate muslims, but where are they, i give you a example of the leader of the muslims in the uk, & what a bigot he is, michael there are very few moderate muslims, the king of jordan is one of the few i know, most supposed moderates sooner or later show there ugly side, towards jews or gays if you talk to them long enough.As to moderate Muslims. You know, it’s kind of hard to say.

For example: I know many Baptists that are nice easy going people that pretty much just go to church on Sunday. Ask them what happens to Hindus and they will tell you every Hindu (and anyone else that hasn’t accepted Jesus) will burn for eternity in Hell. Many Xians think this way. MANY. But they are not so fussed because they live in suburbia USA and will never meet a Hindu.
Are they “moderate” Xians or just run of the mill monotheists or what?

So what do you mean moderate Muslim?

One that says taking 4 wives simultaneous is wrong? It’s wrong by my point of view but to them it may be fine. Mohammed had quite a few wives.

It’s wrong, to me, to have a religious based government – but to someone else that’s fine and should be the way of things. Are they a "fundamentallist"?

To me it’s fine to drink a beer. To someone else it’s a “sin”. Are they a moderate or am I?

To me it’s fine to shake hands when first meeting someone. Someone else may think that touching the skin of my hand is a “sin”. Are they moderate? Fundamental? Or What?

Really, what do you mean when you say moderate “insert monotheism”?

Michael

OK, as a Catholic do you feel Islam is equal to, lower than, or superior to Catholicism? What about Protestants? Are they all equal?



Actually, most Catholics I know are pretty open minded in regards to religion. I personally think Buddhism is the most enlightened but that’s from meeting people of various religious beliefs and speaking with them. Just my opinion. I’m Atheist anyhow.

As to moderate Muslims. You know, it’s kind of hard to say.

For example: I know many Baptists that are nice easy going people that pretty much just go to church on Sunday. Ask them what happens to Hindus and they will tell you every Hindu (and anyone else that hasn’t accepted Jesus) will burn for eternity in Hell. Many Xians think this way. MANY. But they are not so fussed because they live in suburbia USA and will never meet a Hindu.
Are they “moderate” Xians or just run of the mill monotheists or what?

So what do you mean moderate Muslim?

One that says taking 4 wives simultaneous is wrong? It’s wrong by my point of view but to them it may be fine. Mohammed had quite a few wives.

It’s wrong, to me, to have a religious based government – but to someone else that’s fine and should be the way of things. Are they a "fundamentallist"?

To me it’s fine to drink a beer. To someone else it’s a “sin”. Are they a moderate or am I?

To me it’s fine to shake hands when first meeting someone. Someone else may think that touching the skin of my hand is a “sin”. Are they moderate? Fundamental? Or What?

Really, what do you mean when you say moderate “insert monotheism”?

Michael



Michael as far as protestants are concerned they are the same as me, only there beliefs are different, i consider islam lower than all other religons, the reason is simple, they are unable to see beyound religon, they have forgotten they are one of 6 billion humans, they are not one of 1 billion muslims.

I consider every religon out there other than islam, equal to my own faith, being a catholic, & like you i consider buddism a more enlightened religon than most, & since i have lived in thailand the last 9 years, i believe in both religons equally.

But the power of buddism to make such peaceful followers, is really amazing, thai culture & respect for others is way beyound the UK's.

The koran is full of holy war crap, jihaads blah, blah, any religon that teachess war is not a religon.


As for muslim moderates, like i said the king of jordan or other muslims who can talk for hours without bringing up the evils of jews or homosexuals, or that jihaads are a legitamate response, no prophet in his right mind would promote holy wars, yet the koran is full of this shit, so was the koran the ramblings of a war monger, with a blood lust for jihaads, he seem to forgot the basic principal of religon peace.

Michael you ducked my question you think there are moderate muslims, but where are they, i give you a example of the leader of the muslims in the uk, & what a bigot he is, michael there are very few moderate muslims, the king of jordan is one of the few i know, most supposed moderates sooner or later show there ugly side, towards jews or gays if you talk to them long enough.
You obviously don't live in Australia, because if you did, you would not be asking where the moderate Muslims are and whether they support Hilaly or not. So far leaders of moderate Muslims in Australia have likened him to Hitler, told him to shut the hell up in the general media, told him to resign, told him to not bother coming back to Australia, told him he was an embarrassment, etc.

So please vincent, you have no idea what is going on in Australia. Instead you found one reference to what the git has said and run with it and have not kept up with the new reports. Had you bothered to actually read the Australian newspapers and watched the news in Australia, you would see for yourself where and what the moderate Muslims are saying about Hilaly.

Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hilali has done as much damage to Islam in Australia as Hitler did to Christianity, a prominent Muslim leader says.

And the Islamic High Council of Australia, a Sunni Muslim, called for all Australians, both Muslim and non-Muslim, to denounce the outspoken cleric.

Sheik Hilali, Australia's top Muslim cleric, sparked controversy last week when on an Egyptian chat show he labelled white Australians "liars" and said Muslims were more entitled to be in Australia than people with a convict heritage.

The Australian Federation of Islamic Council's legal adviser Haset Sali labelled the sheik's recent diatribe as insane and said the comments had horrified the vast majority of Australian Muslims.

"He has been about as helpful to Islam in Australia as Adolf Hitler was to Christianity during the Second World War," Mr Sali said.

"Hilali increasingly chooses to rewrite what he thinks should be in the Holy Koran and his sick and vile comments in his recent interviews are not only un-Islamic but also inhumane and highly disgraceful."
Link (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/sheik-hilali-like-hitler/2007/01/15/1168709644208.html)

That's just one example from one of the paper's today in Australia.

Seriously Vince, if you are going to start ranting, make sure you get your facts straight. Otherwise you just end up looking ignorant.

Islam should not be tolerated in Western countries. It is hostile to our civilization and culture.

Bigoted ignorance such as you are spewing is far more hostile to our civilization and culture.

Islam should not be tolerated in Western countries. It is hostile to our civilization and culture.I don't see much difference between Judaism, Xianity and Islam - I mean they're all Middle Eastern religions with a Jealous God-head that treats other conscious entities with contempt.

IMHO,
Michael

Exactly what are the major differences in doctrines (that is assuming one were to include the OT – with the flood ravaging genocidal burn all fags and take as many wives as one can afford Godhead)?

You obviously don't live in Australia, because if you did, you would not be asking where the moderate Muslims are and whether they support Hilaly or not. So far leaders of moderate Muslims in Australia have likened him to Hitler, told him to shut the hell up in the general media, told him to resign, told him to not bother coming back to Australia, told him he was an embarrassment, etc.

So please vincent, you have no idea what is going on in Australia. Instead you found one reference to what the git has said and run with it and have not kept up with the new reports. Had you bothered to actually read the Australian newspapers and watched the news in Australia, you would see for yourself where and what the moderate Muslims are saying about Hilaly.


That's just one example from one of the paper's today in Australia.

Seriously Vince, if you are going to start ranting, make sure you get your facts straight. Otherwise you just end up looking ignorant.


yes i read the comments of other leading muslims in australia too



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6255287.stm


Muslim leaders in Australia appeared to be distancing themselves from his remarks.

Keysar Trad, head of the Islamic Friendship Association and a close friend of the sheikh, said some of his comments were "ill-advised".


*******


Yes bells "ill-advised" these are pretty harsh words, i can certainly see where you are coming from here LOL, i mean the head of Islamic Friendship Association is certainly not using the softly, softly approach he is laying into this loony cleric with guns ablazing "ill advised" wow i am so hurt be these strong words!!!!!!!!


Bells what a few of your muslim friends say to you in private, have nothing to do what muslim leaders are saying in public, as a lawyer you should know its what said in the public domain that counts not pub candle light dinners with your friends, when they are saying what you want them to say.

Islam should not be tolerated in Western countries. It is hostile to our civilization and culture.
All religions are in some way divisive, obtrusive and at times down right annoying.

Yes bells "ill-advised" these are pretty harsh words, i can certainly see where you are coming from here LOL, i mean the head of Islamic Friendship Association is certainly not using the softly, softly approach he is laying into this loony cleric with guns ablazing "ill advised" wow i am so hurt be these strong words!!!!!!!
Ok. Do you even know who Trad is? You don't do you? Trad is about the only ally Hilaly has speaking for him in public at the moment. He is the only one saying "ill advised". And he has been grilled for it, not just by the general media but by the general Muslim community as well. Others, as I have said have been quite harsh. Had you known or followed the story in Australia, you would know this. But again, you just jump on your little band wagon and run with it without knowing the reality of the situation. You have again proven your ignorance.

Bells what a few of your muslim friends say to you in private, have nothing to do what muslim leaders are saying in public, as a lawyer you should know its what said in the public domain that counts not pub candle light dinners with your friends, when they are saying what you want them to say.
Funnily enough I hadn't even heard about his latest remarks until one of my Muslim friends rang me to tell me about it. I doubt I can repeat what he and his wife said about what they thought of Hilaly since I'd probably be banned if I did so. Lets just say they were a lot more harsh than even you have been or could ever be about Muslims.

It was only after their call that I actually turned on the TV and saw exactly what they were on about. Muslims think he is an embarrassment. I'll be honest and say he has a lot of supporters at his Lakemba Mosque, but I think at present even that is waning. Again Vince, you aren't in Australia to follow this story so you really don't know what is going on. So please, don't comment on things you have no idea about.

It sounds like Australia needs a good Plantagenet monarch.

Ok. Do you even know who Trad is? You don't do you? Trad is about the only ally Hilaly has speaking for him in public at the moment. He is the only one saying "ill advised". And he has been grilled for it, not just by the general media but by the general Muslim community as well. Others, as I have said have been quite harsh. Had you known or followed the story in Australia, you would know this. But again, you just jump on your little band wagon and run with it without knowing the reality of the situation. You have again proven your ignorance.


Funnily enough I hadn't even heard about his latest remarks until one of my Muslim friends rang me to tell me about it. I doubt I can repeat what he and his wife said about what they thought of Hilaly since I'd probably be banned if I did so. Lets just say they were a lot more harsh than even you have been or could ever be about Muslims.

It was only after their call that I actually turned on the TV and saw exactly what they were on about. Muslims think he is an embarrassment. I'll be honest and say he has a lot of supporters at his Lakemba Mosque, but I think at present even that is waning. Again Vince, you aren't in Australia to follow this story so you really don't know what is going on. So please, don't comment on things you have no idea about.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6090136.stm


SHEIKH TAJ EL-DIN AL-HILALI


"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?"



Mosque Association president Tom Zreika said the board was "basically satisfied with the notion that certain statements made by the mufti [were] misrepresented".

************

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1780967.htm

LINDY KERIN: Around 2,000 worshippers filed in to the Lakemba mosque for Friday prayers.

After his address the Sheik was carried out of the mosque on the shoulders of worshippers.



*************

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20658334-2702,00.html

After delivering the short speech to 5000 worshippers amid shouts of "Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar!", Sheik Hilali shrugged off the widespread condemnation -

Despite The Australian's interpretation of the original sermon being strongly backed by two independent interpreters and Arabic-speaking Muslim leaders across the nation, yesterday Sheik Hilali told his adoring worshippers the account of the sermon was wrong and insisted Islam was strongly opposed to rape.

While Lebanese Muslim Association president Tom Zreika yesterday said he was "terribly concerned and I'm also embarrassed by what's been done and what's been said", he admitted his organisation was divided on whether it should disown the mufti. Mr Zreika, a 31-year-old western Sydney lawyer, said the controversy had "really set us back a number of years. At the moment we are suffering tragically". But he conceded that some LMA board members agreed with the sheik. Asked if the LMA shared his views, he said: "Some directors, yes they do, and so do some of the members of the association."
***************************


"After his address the Sheik was carried out of the mosque on the shoulders of worshippers."


Bells he seems to have alot more support than you think, i may not live in OZ but i can count, 2000 supporters for 1 mosque is quite some support.




"After delivering the short speech to 5000 worshippers amid shouts of "Allah Akbar! Allah Akbar!", Sheik Hilali shrugged off the widespread condemnation - "



Bells 5000 now can u count also.






While Lebanese Muslim Association president Tom Zreika yesterday said

" But he conceded that some LMA board members agreed with the sheik. Asked if the LMA shared his views, he said: "Some directors, yes they do, and so do some of the members of the association."




Let mme see Bells we have the leader of the muslim frienship association & the Lebanese Muslim Association president saying many agree with the loony sheik.


Mosque Association president Tom Zreika also says that certain statements made by the mufti [were] misrepresented, the uncovered meat ones, yet 2 independent interpreters have said this is not true.


It seems to me Bells your the one on your ass not me, you say i dont have finger on the pulse of australia, hey i would be very worried if 5000 muslims were applauding a loony cleric in the uk who said women deserved to be raped.

And to top it all some muslim leaders agreed with his comments.


Bells your like a washed up female perry mason, ive prosecuted you again, my evidence is damning, you have been found guilty of presenting another flimsy pathetic case, your legal presentation is inept as usual, may i suggest you stick to washing dishes & the housework & leave legal matters to me, you are dismissed, & your case too.

What in the hell are you on about now?

Those comments are months old. It has nothing to do with his latest scandal.

Again Vince, had you known anything about what this was really about, you would know that the only reason Hilaly is still in the position he's in, is because he is part of the Lakemba Mosque. One of the biggest Mosques in the damn country. It is where his supporters are, no reason to guess since that is where he preaches.

Now you are looking at comments he had made after the rape comments (very old news) he made and his supporters believed him when he said he was misrepresented. The rest of the Islamic community did not agree and called for his resignation or his stepping down. He supposedly went to Egypt for a self imposed exhile while that blew over that this new debacle occured. Since the latest comments were made by him, no one from his mosque has spoken in his ultimate defence. Some have made comments about agreeing with his description of Howard ("me too" in regards to Bush), but then again, I think you'd find that a lot of Australians also feel the same when it comes to Howard.

Bells your like a washed up female perry mason, ive prosecuted you again, my evidence is damning, you have been found guilty of presenting another flimsy pathetic case, your legal presentation is inept as usual, may i suggest you stick to washing dishes & the housework & leave legal matters to me, you are dismissed, & your case too.
Jesus you're a dickhead with your analogies from TV shows. You dare call Muslims sexist and abusive of women's rights and you come out with comments about my being a woman and that I should stick to washing dishes and housework? You are as equally sexist and vile as Hilaly is. You wouldn't know legal matters if they came and bit you on your bloody arse!

You have shit all evidence you git. You are presenting "evidence" from months ago that has NOTHING to do with what he has recently said. I have already said the only reason he is still in the position he is now is because of the Mosque he belongs to. Had you known ANYTHING about what this issue was about, you would have known that. But nope. Again you jump on whatever you can get your dirtly little hands on and run with it without a single clue of what is going on. You would also have known that the administration of the Mosque and the Islamic community he is a member of is also under receivership and will be facing elections next month. Had you had any idea of what was actually going on, you would have known that Islamic leaders from other areas are demanding that he not be re-appointed and some are begging members of the Lakemba Mosque to denounce him as a half minded twit. But you didn't know that did you?

Then again, what can I expect from a supposed British expat who prefers to live in Thailand for reasons unknown. All that glitters I suppose..

PS: Another thing we need to do is support homegrown Aussie Muslims to become leaders. Why should some pathetic uneducated dimwit from the Middle East with a chauvinistic bullshit attitude be leading services here in Australia? Clearly he needn’t be here and shouldn’t be teaching Aussie's to think. He's attitude is through back from when humanoids were making the transition from pre-historic Apes! :) Leave him in Egypt.

Reminded me of the Zaytuna Institute.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/us/18imams.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=0efbc4624383a46b&ex=1308283200

Jesus you're a dickhead with your analogies from TV shows.

You are as equally sexist and vile as Hilaly is. You wouldn't know legal matters if they came and bit you on your bloody arse!

You have shit all evidence you git.
Then again, what can I expect from a supposed British expat who prefers to live in Thailand for reasons unknown. All that glitters I suppose..


My, my what a dirty mouth you have for a lady, & so many personal attacks at a knighted member of the round table, you need to wash your mouth out with soap & water.

It is said when a person is losing a debate, they will resort to insults & personal attacks, let me see you call me a dick head, a git, a paedophile, vile, & hell you have never met me before, may i suggest you enroll in a finishing school for manners & politeness.

By the way judging by your vulgar words, i was just wondering indeed pondering, what type of court where you a lawyer in, a kangaroo court?.

It seems to me my links have a hit a very raw nerve with you, you harp on about there old matters, yet the uncovered meat story was the one that all the fuss is about, & my links cover that story, the aftermath & the comments of leading muslims about this disgusting statement, which clearly state some leading muslims agree, & that 5000 local muslims think he is a prophet.

Bells if you want to play lawyer in the forum, please present a case you can defend, i take no pleasure in defrocking you, believe me.

As for washing dishes, hell i wash them too, & i do the housework, but im not the one with a chip pan on my shoulder, unlike you.

Touchy, touchy, bells, or just touched, you guess is as good as mine about bells fellow posters.

My, my what a dirty mouth you have for a lady, & so many personal attacks at a knighted member of the round table, you need to wash your mouth out with soap & water.

It is said when a person is losing a debate, they will resort to insults & personal attacks, let me see you call me a dick head, a git, a paedophile, vile, & hell you have never met me before, may i suggest you enroll in a finishing school for manners & politeness.

By the way judging by your vulgar words, i was just wondering indeed pondering, what type of court where you a lawyer in, a kangaroo court?.

It seems to me my links have a hit a very raw nerve with you, you harp on about there old matters, yet the uncovered meat story was the one that all the fuss is about, & my links cover that story, the aftermath & the comments of leading muslims about this disgusting statement, which clearly state some leading muslims agree, & that 5000 local muslims think he is a prophet.

Bells if you want to play lawyer in the forum, please present a case you can defend, i take no pleasure in defrocking you, believe me.

As for washing dishes, hell i wash them too, & i do the housework, but im not the one with a chip pan on my shoulder, unlike you.

Touchy, touchy, bells, or just touched, you guess is as good as mine about bells fellow posters.

Are you insane?

I never disputed those at his mosque supported him. I believe I even told you beforehand. It is the rest of the Muslim community who disagree that he is or should even be a 'Mufti'. You presented articles that are in no way connected to the topic at hand. You had to resort to old arguments, and even then they still did not disprove what I had told you.

You asked why the moderate Muslims weren't saying anything and I told you they were. I even gave you links. Yet you ignore it and keep on ranting about the same thing over and over again. You hate Muslims so much that you refuse to admit that the majority of Muslims in Australia agree with you in that Hilaly has to go and that he is insane. I am willing to bet that before the "meat" comments, you would not have even known who Hilaly even was. Instead you are like a ghoul looking through the papers for any sign of Muslims acting up and you then brand them all as being in the same basket. Any evidence to the contrary and you resort to strawman arguments. Here is another link for you to read.. Link (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21047891-2,00.html).. and another one.. Link (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21048573-5001021,00.html)

I happen to live in Australia and I can assure you, you are wrong on this. If you need to resort to links dating back to the "meat" issue, be aware that moderate Muslims were calling for his resignation then as well. But I guess you just ignored that too, as is typical of blind hateful individuals such as yourself. You accuse them of being exactly what you are.

Moderate Muslims in Australia hate Hilaly because he is divisive and because as many have said, he is "insane" and embarrasses all of them because each time he makes a stupid comment, people like you blame them for it. Which is wrong. I mean honestly vince, you aren't even aware that his title of "Mufti" is not even recognised by many Muslims in this country. It is how he and those who support him at Lakemba Mosque refer him as.

Seriously, you have no idea of what this issue is actually about. You have no idea what moderate Muslims are saying here in Australia. You are too far removed to be aware of it, as was evidenced by your posting comments from one of his best friends and claiming he was a moderate Muslim. The stories in your links were well documented and discussed everywhere. As many have said, his saying everything was taken out of context is same old and they are sick of it. But again, you don't know any of this because you don't live here and watch the news in Australia. I'd suggest you read John Heard: Mufti's madness is true-blue larrikinism (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21058458-7583,00.html). It is an opinion given by a Melbourne writer over the debacle that is Hilaly. You might learn something from it in how you judge Muslims as a whole for the actions of a few. And I have to admit, John Heard is correct in one thing he says in his article:

The best thing for Australia, and for al-Hilali, is to give him all the rope he needs.

In the meantime, hearing the views of this country's Muslim community, whether expressed by al-Hilali or by those who will inevitably argue against him, is good for Australia and good for Muslims.

The fact that he speaks at all - even if he often speaks nonsense, even if his arguments are silly or offensive - represents a triumph for Australian democracy and an advance for national security.

If all we have to fear from Muslims in Australia is the immediately offensive and sometimes remarkably incisive opinions of an ageing sheik, then we are doing better than Indonesia, Britain, Spain, Somalia, France, the US and The Philippines.
Link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21058458-7583,00.html)


The man is in fact a loon. When he first made the comments, even the majority of the politicians were a tad amused. Yes Australia was first colonised by the convicted rejects from the UK. It is factual proof. And yes John Howard will only act on world affairs after seeing what the US and Bush will do. It is something we in Australia often make fun of. As to his comments about Muslims having more right to call themselves Australian than those of convict origin, I believe Alexander Downer (our foreign minister) put it best:

"I don't think people are really taking him terribly seriously any more, this sort of nonsense about convicts and so on," he said on ABC radio.

"Look, I'm a South Australian. South Australia was never a convict colony, so, you know, I'm very relaxed about what people say about convicts."
Link (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21047891-2,00.html)


In short, take the comments from who the came from. We all know he is a twit.

Are you insane?

You hate Muslims so much that you refuse to admit that the majority of Muslims in Australia agree with you in that Hilaly has to go and that he is insane. Instead you are like a ghoul looking through the papers for any sign of Muslims acting up and you then brand them all as being in the same basket. Any evidence to the contrary and you resort to strawman arguments.


Bells i do not hate muslims, i hate people who use religon to kill innocent people, be they jews or muslims, i used to hate irish catholics, because they hid thousands of IRA nutcases in there communities, while they killed babies, soldiers, women & children all in the name of there stupid religon, it was not about kicking the brits out, if they were protestants they would not have been fighting, decades of war in ireland protestants & catholics killing eachother, for what, it achieved jack shit, they are in exactly the same position as when they started.

I am a catholic yet i sided with the protestants in ireland, reason being they usually restricted themselves to tit for tat killings, the catholics killed anyone & everyone in the uk or abroad.

Now i hate muslims for the same reason, they are hiding millions of terroist in there communities, there comes a time when a human if they can call themselves that, must put other humans lives before there belief in religon.

I am sick to death of hearing about jihaads & holy wars its all fucking madness.

Every conflict in the world today revolves around muslims, thailand, philopines, india kasmir, afghan, sudan, somalia, ethiopia, iran, palestine, lebanon, iraq, ther are no wars involving other religons apart from jews.

All the above wars could be stopped if muslims realised that holy wars & jihaads are a crock of shit in the koran, as is a eye for a eye in the bible, but catholics realise that dumb ass things in the bible should not be re-enacted in real life, but muslims cant grasp that with there holy war quotes in the koran.

Every single muslim on this earth believes in holy wars & jihaads if there is a legitamate reason for them, how many catholics do you think believe in a eye for a eye?

Bells i see the reality of the situation, there is no single leader of islam, only a collection of mainly insane loony clerics who are living in the stone age.

There are next to no muslims who can accept homosexuality, yet billions of other faiths can.


The reason i refuse to accept islam as a religon, is because they all accept holy wars & jihaads as part of there religon.

Bells:

Granted that religions always have problems, but some religions are less a problem here in the West than others.

One does not seem Catholicism, or Wicca, or Hinduism, or Buddhism cause problems in the West. One can be a patriotic, normal, law-obiding citizen, who happens to be a Hindu. One can even be completely and utterly Western. But Islam? Seems to not be able to do this.

It's easy to dismiss Hilali as a fool - and quite frankly, he is one.
But don't be so quick to dismiss some of the points he's making.

Those Muslim rapists who got something like 50 years, for example. He's dead right in saying that no white rapist has ever got anywhere near that kind of penalty. Murderers are out in 20, if not less.

If you're wondering where his support is coming from amongst a marginalised Muslim community, start there.

Rapists should be castrated.

SamCDKey:

Becoming "Roman Empiresque", also?

SamCDKey:

Becoming "Roman Empiresque", also?

I'm an Islamofascist remember?:D

Good one.

And for female rapists - circumcision?

No,-- Thank you is enough.

Reminded me of the Zaytuna Institute.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/18/us/18imams.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=0efbc4624383a46b&ex=1308283200I wonder why they didn't have someting like that before in the USA and why not in AU?

Rapists should be castrated.Will it help? Perhaps life in jail is the best option? Definitely this must be the case for pedophiles. Sure it's sad many have been raped but really once they have crossed the line I see no other resource other than life locked away.


Back to the thread at hand - I saw the sheik on TV waving an Aussie flag with his family yesterday talking about how wonderful Aussies were .. … … :bugeye:

Bells i do not hate muslims,

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now i hate muslims for the same reason,

I won't even bother to point out the obvious.

Now i hate muslims for the same reason, they are hiding millions of terroist in there communities, there comes a time when a human if they can call themselves that, must put other humans lives before there belief in religon.
Millions of terrorists? Interesting.

So the average Australian born Muslim, who is simply living his life and has no contact with any fundamentalist aspects of his religion is somehow involved in hiding all those "millions" of terrorists in his community? The average Muslim is also a victim of so called "Islamic" terrorism. They too died while working in the buildings that were brought down. They too died in the trains in the UK on their way to work or other places that they needed to be. They too died in Bali because they were working or were out with their friends and families. And then to make things even worse for them, they have people like you telling them they are somehow bad or evil because they are somehow "hiding millions of terrorists", they are spat on, women are abused and have their head dresses ripped off their heads and sometimes hit by the members of the general non-Muslim public, Muslim children are teased, bullied, spat on by not only other children, but by non-Muslim adults as well, all because they are Muslim. But you don't care because as you've said, you hate them because they are Muslim and therefore by default are "hiding millions of terrorists" in their communities, even when they are completely innocent.

I am sick to death of hearing about jihaads & holy wars its all fucking madness.

So is the average Muslim. But hey, as you've said, they are Muslim and therefore they are guilty by default right?

Every conflict in the world today revolves around muslims, thailand, philopines, india kasmir, afghan, sudan, somalia, ethiopia, iran, palestine, lebanon, iraq, ther are no wars involving other religons apart from jews.

All the above wars could be stopped if muslims realised that holy wars & jihaads are a crock of shit in the koran, as is a eye for a eye in the bible, but catholics realise that dumb ass things in the bible should not be re-enacted in real life, but muslims cant grasp that with there holy war quotes in the koran.

Every single muslim on this earth believes in holy wars & jihaads if there is a legitamate reason for them, how many catholics do you think believe in a eye for a eye?

Bells i see the reality of the situation, there is no single leader of islam, only a collection of mainly insane loony clerics who are living in the stone age.

There are next to no muslims who can accept homosexuality, yet billions of other faiths can.

I have a cousin who is a fundamentalist Christian. And I mean a fundamentalist Christian. She and the people she is friends with go to these prayer meetings with other fundamentalist Christians, some of who live in some form of commune or sect. She and all of her little friends and fellow "prayers" openly advocate the killing of anyone who is not a Christian or who does not believe in the Christian God. Now that would include anyone who did not believe in their version of the Bible.

She openly states that homosexuals should be killed because they represent the devil and are evil due to the fact they are homosexual. Atheists are also equally hated and seen to be advocates and workers of Satan. Being an atheist myself, I imagine I and my husband and children will be the first on her kill list if she were ever given the means. Bhuddists, Muslims and Hindu's are seen by her and her little lunatic fundamentalist friends are seen as praying to and worshipping the devil and apparently the world would be cleansed of evil if they were all simply obliterated.

As she says, the Bible tells her and "us" that we must cleanse the world of the devil and that "God" now waits on her and "us" to do his work for him. She is in short, a rabid fundamentalist. And I can assure you, they aren't a small fundamentalist group. There are quite a few of them around. It is quite frightening. Sadly I know for a fact that if she (at the very least) were given the means, I know that she would carry out what she deems to be "Gods" work. That is how absorbed she is in her beliefs and religion. Fundamentalism is not just in the realm of Islam, but in most religions on earth.

The reason i refuse to accept islam as a religon, is because they all accept holy wars & jihaads as part of there religon.
You can refuse to accept them as much as you want. It does not mean that they do not have a right to practice their religion or to exist. As I said above, the average Muslim is as far removed from the terrorism of the world as you or I am. They should not be blamed for the actions of those fundamentalists, nor should they be blamed for the words of Hilaly. They do not all accept holy wars as part of their daily religion. They see it as something in history, much like Catholics view the wars in the name of God as being something from history.

Back to the thread at hand - I saw the sheik on TV waving an Aussie flag with his family yesterday talking about how wonderful Aussies were .. …
The guy is a loon. He should be seen and dismissed as a loon.

I have a cousin who is a fundamentalist Christian. And I mean a fundamentalist Christian. She and the people she is friends with go to these prayer meetings with other fundamentalist Christians, some of who live in some form of commune or sect. She and all of her little friends and fellow "prayers" openly advocate the killing of anyone who is not a Christian or who does not believe in the Christian God. Now that would include anyone who did not believe in their version of the Bible.

Horrific. Not to offend your family, but her group should probably be broken up by the authorities and the relevant parties charged. On another note: I would be interested to see on what theological grounds she, as a Christian, could believe that all non-Christians and homosexuals ought to die. I daresay she wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The guy is a loon. He should be seen and dismissed as a loon.

But he isn't - he has literally thousands of supporters in his area alone.

Horrific. Not to offend your family, but her group should probably be broken up by the authorities and the relevant parties charged. On another note: I would be interested to see on what theological grounds she, as a Christian, could believe that all non-Christians and homosexuals ought to die. I daresay she wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

She would find a reason, no matter that it would be insane for a normal individual. But like all fundamentalists, they interpret their beliefs differently and will always think they are right. At present I believe my family are attempting to find a way to get her back so to speak. Her daughter has moved to the UK with her husband in a bid to escape from her rantings and her teenage son just tells her to shut up basically. Although the damage it is doing to him is something I am scared to imagine. But he's an intelligent kid and I think he might be the only reason she has not gone further into wherever she is at present. I personally just stay away. In her zealousness, she has done a lot to damage what was a close relationship between she and I.

My point is however, she has a lot of friends who believe as strongly as she does. I'd hate to imagine how many actually turn up to the huge prayer meetings she attends as they apparently sometimes number over a couple of thousands. The thought of all those lunatics believing as she does actually scares the bejesus (no pun intended) out of me.

But he isn't - he has literally thousands of supporters in his area alone.

Hilaly does have his supporters... In his Mosque. But that would be about it. Funnily enough, a lot of the journalists and commentators in Australia are saying he is correct in a lot of what he says. And in a way they are right to say so. After all, he is correct in that Muslims are discriminated against in Australia. They are treated as being outsiders, even those who are of Muslim and of Anglo-Saxon origin. Australia is a nation built on the backs of the first arrivals, who were convicts. We can't say he is wrong when he is in fact factually correct. He denigrates Australia as well as most Australians. Hell if we were to start laying charges for saying bad things about this country, then the majority of the comedians in Australia would be jailed for life.

After all, if we as Australians can't make fun of ourselves anymore, then we have become a sorry country.

IN open democracies such as ours, one of the core beliefs to which we subscribe is our shared and equal right to freedom of speech.

Now, of course, there are some limits to that entitlement, which we generally accept; such as the laws of libel, anti-discrimination laws and recently enacted laws to prevent the spread of terrorism-related discourse, spoken or written.

But by and large we can say what we like in this country.

So the muddled mufti, Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hilali is entitled to his commentary about Westerners being liars, about the greater entitlement of Muslims to Australian residency and to his earlier equation of women and uncovered meat.

As much as we may feel offended by his remarks, he seems not to have transgressed any of the legal restrictions on his rights to free speech.

So let him say what he likes. It's a free country, as we like to say.

And what is more, there is undoubtedly an element of truth in at least some of the sheik's most recent incendiary remarks – made, incidentally, in his native Egypt.
Link (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21066920-5007146,00.html)

Yes he has his supporters and as many other Muslims have said, his words will only divide the Muslim community. But he is allowed to say those words and he is free to say them. Does not mean he represents all Muslims in his utterances. Moderate Muslims have been disowning him for years. As I have pointed out on many occasions, the Mufti title is one he has virtually given himself and he is supported by those of his own community (Lakemba Mosque). Others from other Mosques and other areas of the country consider him to be a bit of a joke and publically denounce him as such.

So perhaps our infuriated reaction every time he opens his mouth is what he wants. For the fact is, he's increasingly irrelevant even in the "community" he purports to represent.
Link (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21066920-5007146,00.html)

He is an attention seeker and he says what he says to get the reaction he wants to prove whatever point he wants to make. But as many Muslims and others have commented, his words are only ensuring that Muslims outside of his support group just disown him.

So why are we so threatened when the things he says don't square neatly with our view of ourselves?

Is it because it is becoming obvious that the sheik is right about some things? Is there a nagging feeling that his views, no matter how apparently backward, actually make sense? Are we scared of what we really think, or - more to the point, given al-Hilali's connections overseas - what others really think of us?

Certainly, anyone who has witnessed the mutton parading as lamb that descends on Flemington and, later, central Melbourne during the spring racing carnival knows what "uncovered meat" looks like. In October, it was actually something of a camp, politically incorrect joke to mention just how fitting al-Hilali's comments were on this point.

That al-Hilali's opponents would consider a bikini march as some sort of clever counter to his arguments seemed to reinforce the sheik's wider point and only multiplied the camp fun. This was al-Hilali as non-PC hero. The South Park sheik.

More serious watchers noted that, despite his irresponsible observations about a gang-rape conviction, al-Hilali's comments might have actually expressed a more humane approach to women's dress than the one usually on offer. Surely something is seriously wrong with a society that teaches its young women that to be accepted or prized they must conform to almost pornographic dress codes.

What kind of feminism results in eight-year-old girls in boob tubes?

And who can seriously object to al-Hilali's recent comments on Cairo Today that some Muslims are discriminated against in this country? Or is it annoying to hear him telling the world our dirty secret? As others have pointed out, Muslim Australians seem to have replaced Irish Catholic Australians as the whipping boys of apparently secular, otherwise polite society. Representing a global community that too often "cries bullets", we should thank the sheik for speaking out about Muslim alienation in Australia.
Link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21058458-7583,00.html)

I actually think the above quote is correct, as is the rest of the article. We just need to lighten up a bit and as Heard (from link above) says, let him go on and on and he will eventually just hang himself publically and he will lose the supporters who are at present keeping him in his idealised lofty position. View him as a joke and stop taking ourselves so seriously. I too was offended at first when he described women in Australia as meat left out in the sun. But then I thought about it and realised he was right. Deep down in the dark tunnels of many Australian minds, some do blame the women when they're raped because they were dressed a certain way. I have seen many defence lawyers attempt to use that as a justification for rape. And it is sad. But he (Hilaly) was commenting on something that is often spoken of and mentioned when dealing with rape cases. We've even had judges who have layed some blame on the victim for her dress and for being provocative or for acting a certain way. And it is not that uncommon. There have been many threads on sciforums where people have said that a woman who dresses a certain way will attract rape and unwanted attention. It is a common misconception, yet even those who think that were outraged when Hilaly made those comments.

Maybe we are sensitive to people we consider to be outsiders who comment on the morality of our community and beliefs. Maybe we are so hateful of Muslims that we will tear them to shreds when they do comment on the truths of our society. Maybe we should just look within ourselves for how we view things before we start beating down on the comments made by Hilaly. I think Heard (from link above) put it best...

In light of the outrage al-Hilali so often sparks, however, is this still the case? Just as pain in the body can indicate when a muscle or organ is ailing, perhaps our indignation over al-Hilali's comments demonstrates a narrowing of Australian ideas, a shutting down of our curiosity and the laconic nature we generally consider true blue? Are we witnessing the middle age of our national spirit, complete with a crotchety attitude writ large?

Consider the newspaper treatment of almost anything al-Hilali (or that other punching bag Germaine Greer, for that matter) says. It is often explosive and tabloid-style. One can sometimes almost feel the outraged exclamation marks behind the quotations. Consider, too, the media outlets that pay for spies to sit in on his sermons, waiting to translate any potentially exciting comments into front-page headlines.

Imagine The Sydney Morning Herald or some other liberal-leaning paper sitting through each of Cardinal George Pell's sermons and salaciously reporting any comments he makes about homosexuality or abortion.



To be honest, I find Hilaly to be a joke. I can't believe so many people do take him so seriously. Is it that he said what he said in Egypt that caused the most offence? A commentator remarked that it was as if he was letting the world in on our dirty little secrets. The man is a joke and a buffoon and he should be treated as such. When the Lebanese gang rapes occured, he actually commented that in his country, criminals such as they would have been given the death penalty. His comments about their sentence was basically an observation that they were the only rapists to have ever been given such a long sentence when other non Muslim rapists (some gang rapists as well) are given much lighter sentences. Killers aren't given the sentences those rapists received. Do they deserve it? Yes they do and I doubt anyone could dispute that. But the law, if it will be strict, needs to be applied equally to all and not to just one group in our society.

We do treat Muslims with hostility, especially Muslim women who do wear the burka. As one Australian journalist found out when she did a piece on what it would be like to wear one for a day. She commented that she was faced with open hostility by Australians and cameraman who had tagged along with her was also amazed at the way she was looked at and treated.

The challenge of driving in the traffic squinting through the veil meant I was too focused on the road to do more than sense the stares of other drivers, but after we had parked and entered a shopping centre in the neighbouring suburb of Bankstown I realised that I was being followed: not only by Pryke, who was nervously looking about as he primed his camera, but by a gangling security guard who was muttering into the walkie-talkie he nursed against his cheek.

------------------------------------------------------

The veil concealing my face attracted attention, only to repel it, or so I gathered from the response of other shoppers, even in the echoing atrium of Centro Bankstown, where one sees veiled women from time to time. I had expected some animosity but was shocked nonetheless at the overwhelming sense of hostility I felt directed towards me. The only audible comment came from a bloke who said: "Aussie Aussie oi", half under his breath as he passed by, but many people stared, faces fixed in what was fast becoming a familiar expression of disapproval mixed with distaste.

When Pryke dropped the camera and moved off to the side to watch the reactions, he noticed the same thing; even some Muslim women in headscarves and long skirts glared.
Link (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20798300-1242,00.html)

We do treat Muslims with hostility, especially Muslim women who do wear the burka. As one Australian journalist found out when she did a piece on what it would be like to wear one for a day. She commented that she was faced with open hostility by Australians and cameraman who had tagged along with her was also amazed at the way she was looked at and treated.

Is that any wonder, 1 failed suicide bomber in the uk last year left london in a burka, another muslim killed a female police officer & left the country in his sisters burka, many in the middle east use it as a disguise for suicide bombings, if muslim men hold the veil & burka in contempt, why should we do otherwise, i dont see catholics using nuns as suicide bombings disguises, maybe its because we hold our religon more sacred.

Wearing a burka is a symbol of male chauvinestic pigs, many muslim women detest wearing it, others like wearing it, mainly because there minds are totally into the teachings of islam & dont no any bettter.

Bells the koran entirley favours the man 100%, from men having multiple wives, control over womens dressing, behaviour, & a muslims mans word is always held more important than a females, a female will always be considered as the liar, when there is a dispute with a man.

Your a female bells so you consider the above a forward looking religon, a tolerant religon, a religon that regards all humans as equal, because anyone with a IQ above single figures can see how chuvinestic this religon is.

Dont forget bells in some muslim countries, a victim of rape, may be force3d to marry her rapist, as a woman bells do you find this acceptable, i find it all dispicable.....

The mufti was on the Egyptian chat show explaining the controversy last year over his comments likening immodestly-dressed women to uncovered meat.

NOTHING is immoral like uncovered meat.:rolleyes:

They may not all live in caves, but these fascists are truly cro-mag.

As she says, the Bible tells her and "us" that we must cleanse the world of the devil and that "God" now waits on her and "us" to do his work for him. She is in short, a rabid fundamentalist. And I can assure you, they aren't a small fundamentalist group. There are quite a few of them around. It is quite frightening. Sadly I know for a fact that if she (at the very least) were given the means, I know that she would carry out what she deems to be "Gods" work. That is how absorbed she is in her beliefs and religion. Fundamentalism is not just in the realm of Islam, but in most religions on earth.


I really wasn't aware that a so-called Bible believer would believe in murdering people. Where do they get that commandment?

Is that any wonder, 1 failed suicide bomber in the uk last year left london in a burka, another muslim killed a female police officer & left the country in his sisters burka, many in the middle east use it as a disguise for suicide bombings, if muslim men hold the veil & burka in contempt, why should we do otherwise, i dont see catholics using nuns as suicide bombings disguises, maybe its because we hold our religon more sacred.

Wearing a burka is a symbol of male chauvinestic pigs, many muslim women detest wearing it, others like wearing it, mainly because there minds are totally into the teachings of islam & dont no any bettter.

Bells the koran entirley favours the man 100%, from men having multiple wives, control over womens dressing, behaviour, & a muslims mans word is always held more important than a females, a female will always be considered as the liar, when there is a dispute with a man.

Your a female bells so you consider the above a forward looking religon, a tolerant religon, a religon that regards all humans as equal, because anyone with a IQ above single figures can see how chuvinestic this religon is.

Dont forget bells in some muslim countries, a victim of rape, may be force3d to marry her rapist, as a woman bells do you find this acceptable, i find it all dispicable.....

This from the man who told me that as a woman my place was in the kitchen doing dishes and housework? Ya right Vince. YOU are the last person to criticise anyone for chauvinism or sexist attitudes.

Oh and for your information, taking up the burka is the decision of the woman. You might have issues with it, but the women who choose to wear it do so by choice and Muslims will tell you that any Government or individual who forces women to wear it are twisting the Koran to suit their needs and desires. Sexism and chauvinism does not exist solely in Islam. You say that in Islam the victim of a rapist can be forced to marry her rapist (I've never heard of this but whatever)? In some hospitals in Australia, rape victims are being denied access to abortions or even the morning after pill and specialist counselling because the hospital (both public and private) happens to be run by or owned by a certain religion. That is equally unacceptable. But hey, so long as they're not Muslim right? After all, other religions can do no wrong as far as you are concerned.

The irony of your argument is that you are intolerant of them because you say they are intolerant.

I find it interesting how you view the Burka as being a symbol of male chauvinism, but you probably don't view the full nun's garb as being in the same league. Difference between the two is that women in Islam have the choice. Become a nun and you no longer have that choice depending on the order.

Religion, primarily Abrahamic religions, is chauvinistic to its core. Do you honestly think women in Catholicism have rights? They have none at all. Women don't even have reproductive rights as far as the church is concerned. That's just one example.

Now regarding women's rights. Are you aware of the International Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women?

The Convention defines discrimination against women as "...any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field."
Link (http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/)



Now in looking at the number of countries who have signed and ratified the Convention, I noticed that one prominent Western country had failed to ratify it, or take it into law (as such). Yes that's right, the US has yet to ratify the Convention. They have signed it, but have yet to ratify it. Interesting don't you think? Link (http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/states.htm)

In short Vince, before throwing stones, remember you too live in a glass house. We in the West are not perfect and neither is Islam. No religion is perfect. Not Islam, not Christianity, not any. All are chauvinistic and all are sexist in the extreme.

As for Hilaly, I have said repeatedly.. The guy is a lunatic. The only supporters he has are from his Mosque. Others just think he should shut the hell up and disappear. Personally, I think he's a loon. Some of what he says is sadly true. We are a nation run by a "me too" person and we do discriminate against Muslims because they are Muslim. We abuse Muslim women for wearing the scarf or the Burka and we have become so self obsessed about our so called freedoms that we deny Muslims the freedom to dress as they choose and practice the religion of their choice. We say they are sexist and chauvinistic in making women wear the Burka, but we are equally so in attempting to deny women who choose to wear it the choice to wear it. When you have Muslim children being attacked in Australia because they are Muslim, then we really need to take a good, long hard look at ourselves.

In Australia, a school bus carrying Muslim children in Brisbane was pelted with stones and bottles. Mosques were firebombed and at least one burned down. A Lebanese church was vandalized.
Link (http://www.amnesty.org.il/11sep/USA_back2.html)


You can say whatever you wish about Muslims and Islam, but keep in mind that your words join the chorus of hatred which leads people to throw stones and bottles at a school bus and it also leads to other hate crimes against innocent Muslims who are living their lives just like you and I do. Not all Muslims are jihadists who are hell bent of destroying the West. The majority just want to care for their loved ones and work and play like the rest of us do and because of the actions of those few fundamentalists, we are making the lives of the ordinary Muslim into a living hell.

Soon after the 11 September attacks, graffiti appeared on a wall near a mosque in South Shields, the UK. Painted in red letters two metres high were the words, "Avenge USA - kill a Muslim now".

It is a terrible irony that within weeks of the UN World Conference against Racism, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban, South Africa, many communities around the world are facing a dramatic increase in racist abuse. This is despite the many calls by intergovernmental organizations as well as leading politicians in the USA, Europe and other regions for religious tolerance and against racist acts of vengeance.

In the USA there was a wave of compassion for the victims of the attack, with many people rushing to help, some at the cost of their lives. But the horror and fear triggered by the attack also unleashed a wave of bigotry across the country targeted at Muslims, Asians and those of Middle Eastern appearance. Such sentiments were fuelled by radio stations falsely reporting that Muslims in the USA were celebrating the attack.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations received reports of more than 540 attacks on Arab-Americans in the week following the hijackings, ranging from verbal abuse to physical assaults, many directed at school children. In the same period more than 200 Sikhs were victims of some kind of racist abuse. Two weeks after the attacks, the FBI had formally opened investigations into about 90 hate crimes, and local and state agencies were investigating hundreds of other incidents of assaults, harassment and threats.

Dozens of mosques and Hindu temples have been firebombed or vandalized. The Islamic Center of Irving, for example, a mosque in Texas, had its windows shattered by gunshots. A bag of pig's blood was reportedly left on the doorstep of a mosque in San Francisco. Many schools and colleges have been forced to close because of death threats, bomb threats and fears for the safety of students. Shops have been pillaged for racist reasons.

A few victims have died as a result of alleged hate crimes sparked by the 11 September attacks. An Egyptian-born shopkeeper, a Christian, was shot dead in Los Angeles. A Sikh petrol station owner was shot and killed in Arizona. A Pakistani man was killed in Dallas. A Yemeni-American was shot dead in Detroit. Other victims have sustained horrific injuries. A 20-year-old student, for example, was stabbed three times in Boston by assailants yelling anti-Arab abuse. A Sudanese refugee reportedly survived an attempted stabbing in an Atlanta street when another refugee came to his aid.

Hundreds of people have suffered death threats and racist intimidation. In Pennsylvania the chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America was threatened by motorists and then stopped by police because of his appearance. He was returning from a national memorial service for the victims of the 11 September attacks and had been advised by the FBI not to fly. A woman in Los Angeles was threatened with a gun in her face. An Arab-American shop-owner was pepper-sprayed. In Laramie, Wyoming, a woman and her children were chased from a supermarket by angry shoppers screaming at her to go back to her country. There have also been several examples of local communities taking action to show their solidarity with their Muslim neighbours.

Racist attacks have not been restricted to the USA. In Canada, five school students with Arabic-sounding names were assaulted in Oakville, Ontario, by fellow school students. Mosques were attacked and schools had to be closed to protect the students.
Link (http://www.amnesty.org.il/11sep/USA_back2.html)

You accuse them of being and harboring terrorists while those who believe as you do terrorise them because of their religion. Vicious circle isn't it? You say they oppress and hate, when you form part of the group who oppress and hate them.. and some in that group also kill, bash, assault and abuse even children because of their religion. You must be proud.

So please don't hold yourself or the West to a higher standard when you and the rest of us in the West can act as we do. In short, we should be ashamed of ourselves.

“ Originally Posted by Bells
As she says, the Bible tells her and "us" that we must cleanse the world of the devil and that "God" now waits on her and "us" to do his work for him. She is in short, a rabid fundamentalist. And I can assure you, they aren't a small fundamentalist group. There are quite a few of them around. It is quite frightening. Sadly I know for a fact that if she (at the very least) were given the means, I know that she would carry out what she deems to be "Gods" work. That is how absorbed she is in her beliefs and religion. Fundamentalism is not just in the realm of Islam, but in most religions on earth.
”
I really wasn't aware that a so-called Bible believer would believe in murdering people. Where do they get that commandment?

"the Bible tells her and "us" that we must cleanse the world of the devil"

Bells i am sure you know the devil is not a real person, however muslims are taught infidels ( non believers of islam) are the devils children, i dont relate your christian relation to loony muslim terroists, it seems to me she has a mental illness, as you where once good friends, but now she is a loony, even a idiot doctor could figure out she is suffering from either drug abuse, or alcohol abuse, or just mental illness.

But to relate this story to fundies in islam is just pathetic, there is no drug or alcohol abuse or mental illness there its just loonies re-enacting the koran word for word.


As your relation had a family, & good relationship with u once, i would be more concerned about her health, rather than her being a fanatic of christianity, she is not going to church to hear priests whispering suicide missions into her ears is she, however muslims in some mosques have dvds playing non stop terroist videos in the uk & many other places, as well as loony clerics whispering sweet murdering nothings in there ears.

She would find a reason, no matter that it would be insane for a normal individual. But like all fundamentalists, they interpret their beliefs differently and will always think they are right. At present I believe my family are attempting to find a way to get her back so to speak. Her daughter has moved to the UK with her husband in a bid to escape from her rantings and her teenage son just tells her to shut up basically. Although the damage it is doing to him is something I am scared to imagine. But he's an intelligent kid and I think he might be the only reason she has not gone further into wherever she is at present. I personally just stay away. In her zealousness, she has done a lot to damage what was a close relationship between she and I.

I'm very sorry to hear about your cousin - fundamentalism does infect the mind so. I have little doubt that she and her cult could be quite dangerous. Fortunately, such views are genuinely in the minority.

Hilaly does have his supporters... In his Mosque. But that would be about it.

Then his mosque must serve over 5,000 people. Seriously, Bells, that's a shitload. His influence clearly extends beyond the mosque.

We can't say he is wrong when he is in fact factually correct. He denigrates Australia as well as most Australians. Hell if we were to start laying charges for saying bad things about this country, then the majority of the comedians in Australia would be jailed for life.

He might be right about some social ills, but look at what he's offering as a solution; the same thing as your cousin, but far, far worse - and he actually has a power base. Merely because there are problems doesn't make his worldview correct. For example, I advocate communism, but it's clearly not for everyone, and the examples to date don't fill me with much confidence in the system. It's not a question of Australians making fun of yourselves, it's a question of having a little Goebbels in your midst who wants to overthrow you. And what, it might be asked, would he then want to do with all these 'descendants of criminals', et al.? How can he have talked about the death penalty when he also thought the sentence was far too harsh? Don't be afraid to be critical of islam: it always seems to engender a broad support for harsh dialectic wherever it goes, and it is the extremists that always drive the agenda.

Muslim bashing has been done 1,000 times over.

Multiculturalism doesn't work, as usual.

Oh and for your information, taking up the burka is the decision of the woman. You might have issues with it, but the women who choose to wear it do so by choice and Muslims will tell you that any Government or individual who forces women to wear it are twisting the Koran to suit their needs and desires. Sexism and chauvinism does not exist solely in Islam. You say that in Islam the victim of a rapist can be forced to marry her rapist (I've never heard of this but whatever)? In some hospitals in Australia, rape victims are being denied access to abortions or even the morning after pill and specialist counselling because the hospital (both public and private) happens to be run by or owned by a certain religion. That is equally unacceptable. But hey, so long as they're not Muslim right? After all, other religions can do no wrong as far as you are concerned.

The irony of your argument is that you are intolerant of them because you say they are intolerant.

I find it interesting how you view the Burka as being a symbol of male chauvinism, but you probably don't view the full nun's garb as being in the same league. Difference between the two is that women in Islam have the choice. Become a nun and you no longer have that choice depending on the order.

Religion, primarily Abrahamic religions, is chauvinistic to its core. Do you honestly think women in Catholicism have rights? They have none at all. Women don't even have reproductive rights as far as the church is concerned. That's just one example.

Now regarding women's rights. Are you aware of the International Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women?



Now in looking at the number of countries who have signed and ratified the Convention, I noticed that one prominent Western country had failed to ratify it, or take it into law (as such). Yes that's right, the US has yet to ratify the Convention. They have signed it, but have yet to ratify it. Interesting don't you think? Link (http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/states.htm)

In short Vince, before throwing stones, remember you too live in a glass house. We in the West are not perfect and neither is Islam. No religion is perfect. Not Islam, not Christianity, not any. All are chauvinistic and all are sexist in the extreme.

As for Hilaly, I have said repeatedly.. The guy is a lunatic. The only supporters he has are from his Mosque. Others just think he should shut the hell up and disappear. Personally, I think he's a loon. Some of what he says is sadly true. We are a nation run by a "me too" person and we do discriminate against Muslims because they are Muslim. We abuse Muslim women for wearing the scarf or the Burka and we have become so self obsessed about our so called freedoms that we deny Muslims the freedom to dress as they choose and practice the religion of their choice. We say they are sexist and chauvinistic in making women wear the Burka, but we are equally so in attempting to deny women who choose to wear it the choice to wear it. When you have Muslim children being attacked in Australia because they are Muslim, then we really need to take a good, long hard look at ourselves.



You can say whatever you wish about Muslims and Islam, but keep in mind that your words join the chorus of hatred which leads people to throw stones and bottles at a school bus and it also leads to other hate crimes against innocent Muslims who are living their lives just like you and I do. Not all Muslims are jihadists who are hell bent of destroying the West. The majority just want to care for their loved ones and work and play like the rest of us do and because of the actions of those few fundamentalists, we are making the lives of the ordinary Muslim into a living hell.


You accuse them of being and harboring terrorists while those who believe as you do terrorise them because of their religion. Vicious circle isn't it? You say they oppress and hate, when you form part of the group who oppress and hate them.. and some in that group also kill, bash, assault and abuse even children because of their religion. You must be proud.

So please don't hold yourself or the West to a higher standard when you and the rest of us in the West can act as we do. In short, we should be ashamed of ourselves.



For you info:

Wering the veil or burka is not a choice in many muslim countries, if woman dont wear it they can have acid thrown in there face, or beat up or stoned to death fact, if you want a money bet on that i will glady supply the links to prove it, i deal in 100% facts not fantasy.

In pakistan there have been many women forced to marry there rapist also fact.

CNN or bbc women reporters nearly always wear veils etc when in most muslim countries not out of choice, but for there own protection, YOU DO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE DONT YOU?.

Telling women to do the dishes, housework is used as a joke, as well you know, not just by me but most of western society, so dont call me chauvinestic because of that joke, that just shows how lacking you are in any humour, either that are you are you are immature or still not comfortable in your gender to accept jokes on your sex, why dont you cry for the muslim religous police to arrest me.

And hey bell dont wonder about alone in some muslim countries, you can be arrested for that too, or dare to be in public with a unmarried man, another arrestable offence in many muslim countries.

Yeah bells islam is a hoot for a woman, when i die i want to return as a muslim woman, to enjoy all the benefits of being a muslim woman in the middle east, LOL.

Well, he is the leader of Australia's muslims.So, I guess you have to kill him, right? That's what good Christian militants do.

Who said kill?

Genji, please: enough hyperbole. Are we allowed to deal with threats to our security and society? Is that all right with you? Or should we just kill all the Jews? Maybe you think that would make it better.

Who said kill?

Genji, please: enough hyperbole. Are we allowed to deal with threats to our security and society? Is that all right with you? Or should we just kill all the Jews? Maybe you think that would make it better.All the hate against Muslims in Australia leads to....? What? Join Pauline Hanson and chant White Power I guess. Rightwing hate breeds violence and pograms. Something of a drumbeat among racists here.

Leads to: laws, incarceration, deportation. Is there a problem with that? As for "breeding hate": try Hilali's version, for starters.

Then his mosque must serve over 5,000 people. Seriously, Bells, that's a shitload. His influence clearly extends beyond the mosque.

Ermm no not really. Lakemba has a strong population of Lebanese Muslims who form part of Lakemba Mosque. In the 2001 cencus there were 281 578 Muslims in Australia. And the places of birth are listed as such:

The major countries of birth of Australian Muslims are:

1. Australia: 36%
2. Lebanon: 10%
3. Turkey: 8%
4. Afghanistan: 3.5%
5. Bosnia-Herzegovina: 3.5%
6. Pakistan: 3.2%
7. Indonesia: 2.9%
8. Iraq: 2.8%
9. Bangladesh: 2.7%
10. Iran: 2.3%
11. Fiji: 2.0%

Link (http://www.humanrights.gov.au/racial_discrimination/isma/fact_muslim.html)

With your calls for deportation, I wonder where those who were born in Australia would be deported to..:rolleyes:

Now that census was from 2001, I'd imagine there are a few more now, don't you? So 5000 at Lakemba is kind of a drop in a bucket. You might view 5,000 as a huge number, but in reality it is not.

He might be right about some social ills, but look at what he's offering as a solution; the same thing as your cousin, but far, far worse - and he actually has a power base.
Where did he offer a solution? He commented about the issues as he sees them in Australia. Does not mean that because he, as an individual, sees something a certain way that all Muslims automatically view it in the same light. Funnily enough, his biggest critics after his comments have been Muslims from around Australia.

Merely because there are problems doesn't make his worldview correct. For example, I advocate communism, but it's clearly not for everyone, and the examples to date don't fill me with much confidence in the system.
When school children travelling in a bus are pelted with stones and broken bottles, it indicates something a bit more than a mere "problem". To be honest, I see him as posing less of a danger to Australia as a whole than I would John Howard. Do you know why? Because Hilaly is a nut and is widely recognised as such by Australians, be they of Muslim origin and of all other origin who happen to exist here. John Howard on the other hand is a "yes" man to Bush and he is stupid enough to follow Bush into any war Bush decides to start. Now Hilaly is treated as some kind of joke. Yes he has power.. amongst the Muslims at his mosque. Howard on the other hand has power over the whole country.

It's not a question of Australians making fun of yourselves, it's a question of having a little Goebbels in your midst who wants to overthrow you.
I would hate to imagine how many little Goebbels there were who wanted to overthrow the Government in Australia. Pauline Hanson is one that comes to mind. Along with the Family First Party.

And what, it might be asked, would he then want to do with all these 'descendants of criminals', et al.? How can he have talked about the death penalty when he also thought the sentence was far too harsh? Don't be afraid to be critical of islam: it always seems to engender a broad support for harsh dialectic wherever it goes, and it is the extremists that always drive the agenda.
This is what you don't understand. His commentary about Australia as he sees it does not mean that he is about to wage a coup. Instead of taking him and his comments as a joke, because he and his comments are a joke, you are carrying on as though he has an army of a couple of million waiting off our shores with guns drawn ready to over-throw the Government. Now if Australians aren't taking it seriously as that, why are you and vince?

If we were to take every kook seriously when they commented about Australia and how they think it should be run, etc, then we would be constantly at war with ourselves. Hell Germaine Greer would have been strung up and quartered by now if that were the case.

When the rapists were first caught, his comments about their actions was that in Lebanon or in Egypt, if such a thing were to have happened, the boys would have been hung. His commentary on their sentence reflected the shock that did hit the country when they were sentenced, because it was the harshest penalty given for a rapist in history. Amongst legal circles, there were a lot of raised eyebrows that other rapists who have committed equally horrific crimes had and have gotten off with a sentence of literally a couple of years, yet these boys were given such a harsher sentence. No one was saying they didn't deserve it. What was being said was that why murderers and other rapists weren't and haven't been given sentences as harsh since then. For example, I'd consider a person who rapes a baby to be equally disgusting, wouldn't you? Yet they come out with probation or a maximum 2 - 5 year sentence.

Wering the veil or burka is not a choice in many muslim countries, if woman dont wear it they can have acid thrown in there face, or beat up or stoned to death fact, if you want a money bet on that i will glady supply the links to prove it, i deal in 100% facts not fantasy.

And as I commented above, Muslims admit themselves that in countries were such regimes are in existence, those in power have perverted and destroyed what Islam and the Koran actually say and are about.

You say nothing new and nothing original. I know that in some countries women are subjugated and abused, and it is not solely synonamous with Islam or Muslims. And Muslims themselves admit that those countries who do that have perverted their own beliefs.

Religion, any religion, subjugates women and treats them as second class citizens.

CNN or bbc women reporters nearly always wear veils etc when in most muslim countries not out of choice, but for there own protection, YOU DO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE DONT YOU?.
I wonder whether you do.

When visiting a foreign country, it is considered expected that you respect the laws of that country. Now many Muslims themselves have problems with countries that force women to cover up, but if that is the law of that particular country, you respect it. After all, you expect visitors to your country to obey and respect the laws of your country don't you? For example, I'd expect that a person who enters Australia for a visit or to report on a story not break the laws in Australia and if they do, then they should be expelled. Did Hilaly break a law with his words? No. We are a free country and people are allowed to speak their opinion about the country. He did not incite violence, but commented. Either take him and his words as the joke that he and the words are, or take it seriously like you and rant on and on about it. Your choice.

However, seeing that you live in Thailand, I fail to see what a Muslim living in Australia speaking on TV in Egypt really has to do with you. But such is life. You obviously spend your time trolling the internet for any little story that has the word "Muslim" or "Islam" in it, just so you can post it in here. I would have imagined that being the concerned citizen that you portray yourself as being, that you would be more concerned with the troubles that plague the country you live in (eg. the child sex trade) as one example, but I guess not. After all, I'd consider people entering Thailand to buy children to be sex slaves as being more of a danger and more important to be concerned about than the words of some demented self appointed cleric that Australians have for the most part just treated as a bit of a joke.

Telling women to do the dishes, housework is used as a joke, as well you know, not just by me but most of western society, so dont call me chauvinestic because of that joke, that just shows how lacking you are in any humour, either that are you are you are immature or still not comfortable in your gender to accept jokes on your sex, why dont you cry for the muslim religous police to arrest me.
Oh I think you would have made a perfect Taliban believing Muslim. You are a fundamentalist in your beliefs.

As to my opinion of my gender, why are you so concerned? I personally find you to be highly distasteful not only because you are sexist and a misogynist, but also because you bring to mind those greasy, weedy little people who stalks along the fringes quietly plotting out your hate. But that's my personal opinion. Amusingly enough, your reactions to people like Hilaly and the hateful little words you spout in here make you look like a Catholic version of Hilaly. Funny that huh?

And hey bell dont wonder about alone in some muslim countries, you can be arrested for that too, or dare to be in public with a unmarried man, another arrestable offence in many muslim countries.
I have actually travelled to "Muslim" countries and have wandered out alone and felt quite safe actually. I was also out with my then boyfriend (now an ex). What's your point? When I was a toddler and my father was living in Saudi Arabia for half a year for work reasons, I apparently used to dash out of the house butt naked and run out into the front yard for all the neighbours to see. Neither I or my family were arrested for my public display of nudity.:rolleyes:

In some countries Vince, a child could not do that because they could be kidnapped and sold as a sex slave to tourists and expats who move there for that purpose. So if you have a child, be careful about letting out on the street alone.


Yeah bells islam is a hoot for a woman, when i die i want to return as a muslim woman, to enjoy all the benefits of being a muslim woman in the middle east, LOL.
Yes, Islam is as much of a hoot for some women around the world, as Thailand is a hoot for some children and babies.

Ermm no not really. Lakemba has a strong population of Lebanese Muslims who form part of Lakemba Mosque. In the 2001 cencus there were 281 578 Muslims in Australia.

Ermm no, not in Lakemba. You seem to be comparing in a roundabout way the figure of 5,000 (which was I think the low-end estimate for the number of loonies that came out to support Hilali) with the entire 281 578 muslims in all of Australia, which would be a bit of a miscomparison. I don't doubt that most of the population of Australia is concentrated in NSW, but it would probably be more appropriate to ask how many muslims are in Lakemba itself. I might add here that Hilali is the Imam of Lakemba Mosque.

And the places of birth are listed as such:

The major countries of birth of Australian Muslims are:

1. Australia: 36%
2. Lebanon: 10%
3. Turkey: 8%
4. Afghanistan: 3.5%
5. Bosnia-Herzegovina: 3.5%
6. Pakistan: 3.2%
7. Indonesia: 2.9%
8. Iraq: 2.8%
9. Bangladesh: 2.7%
10. Iran: 2.3%
11. Fiji: 2.0%

Link (http://www.humanrights.gov.au/racial_discrimination/isma/fact_muslim.html)

With your calls for deportation, I wonder where those who were born in Australia would be deported to..

Well, those Australian muslims who support Hilali and his ilk - which you seem somehow to be attributing to me as all muslims, since you make no breakdown for the minority that espouses islamic supremacism - could be randomly distributed, or distributed to the homelands of their parents.

Do you gasp? Horrors! Yet, what could be fairer? They prefer a non-Australian society. They should have one. Even as a communist, I never presumed to think that the Soviet model was a good choice for the rest of the world. Yet some politico-religious folks seem to think they have the answer. Well, perhaps they would gain valued experience in the very system they purport as superior, all the better to be able to impose it on their peers.

Now that census was from 2001, I'd imagine there are a few more now, don't you? So 5000 at Lakemba is kind of a drop in a bucket. You might view 5,000 as a huge number, but in reality it is not.

It all depends on the size of the muslim community at Lakemba. Is Hilali, the Imam of the Lakemba Mosque, representative of the views of his congregation? It's an eminently fair question, really.

Where did he offer a solution? He commented about the issues as he sees them in Australia. Does not mean that because he, as an individual, sees something a certain way that all Muslims automatically view it in the same light. Funnily enough, his biggest critics after his comments have been Muslims from around Australia.

Have they? I don't suppose you could post those quotes. I was rather under the impression that his greatest critics were non-muslims from around Australia.

And as for the solution he offers? Can you not read between the lines? :rolleyes:

When school children travelling in a bus are pelted with stones and broken bottles, it indicates something a bit more than a mere "problem".

I agree that children being pelted with broken bottles and stones is something more than a "problem". And what has this to do with the argument at hand?

To be honest, I see him as posing less of a danger to Australia as a whole than I would John Howard. Do you know why? Because Hilaly is a nut and is widely recognised as such by Australians, be they of Muslim origin and of all other origin who happen to exist here. John Howard on the other hand is a "yes" man to Bush and he is stupid enough to follow Bush into any war Bush decides to start. Now Hilaly is treated as some kind of joke. Yes he has power