I am an Orange Catholic, I was wondering, if any others here who share the faith of Galactophasic Determinism? Or would anyone wish to ask questions or discuss the religion?

I would like to know what you are talking about.
I've never heard of Orange Catholocism or Galactophasic Determinism.

Neither have I. James, please elaborate.

Orange County?

Orange Catholicism is a religion whose main commandment is said to be the core of all religions:

"Thou shalt not disfigure the soul"

The purpose of religion being espoused as:

"Men, finding no answers to the sunnan [the ten thousand religious questions from the Shari-ah] now apply their own reasoning. All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is the task of Religion to fit man into this lawfulness."

Moreover, Orange Catholicism espouses the belief that man may not be replaced, stressing the importance of humanity, and urging us not to replace man with machine, something which increasingly appears to be endemic in our society today. This belief is summarized in:

"Thou shalt not create a machine in the likeness of a man's mind"

Orange Catholicism also stresses that life is not sin, not horror, but rather, wonderful and pleasing.

"Much that was called religion has carried an unconscious attitude of hostility toward life. True religion must teach that life is filled with joys pleasing to the eye of God, that knowledge without action is empty. All men must see that the teaching of religion by rules and rote is largely a hoax. The proper teaching is recognized with ease. You can know it without fail because it awakens within you that sensation which tells you this is something you've always known."

Another defining point of Orange Catholicism is, similar to the Bahai faith, is a degree of religious ecumenicism and syncretism:

"In the common belief that there exists a Divine Essence in the universe."

I'll end this post with one more quote:

"Whether a thought is spoken or not it is a real thing and has powers of reality." - 22 Kalima

All Hail Ship!!

Invert:

SHHHHHHhhhhhhhhHHHHHhhHHHh.

Invert:

Agreed. I wish he had actually composed an O.C. Bible. Think he would have he didn't die in the 80's?

Invert:
Agreed. I wish he had actually composed an O.C. Bible. Think he would have he didn't die in the 80's?Definetly.... Still hoping they'll come out with whatever they can put together of **** 7.

~Raithere

"Thou shalt not create a machine in the likeness of a man's mind"

How do you reconcile your use of computers with your religious beliefs?

James R.

Just as the Bene Gesserit, and the God-Emperor himself, I believe the commandments forbid only such computers which are artificially intelligent. The conveinence of non-sentient computers and their proliferation in this society, prohibits me from not using the computer.

It's very convenient that only AIs are a problem. Almost too convenient... ;)

James R:

*Hides the primative downloaded AI programmes.*

And Galactophasic Determinism?

Galactophasic Determinism:

The philosophy espoused of the Orange Catholic Bible, rooted in the above mentioned beliefs.

A breakdown of what the word likely means:

Galactophasic = All the galaxy's religions phased together into essential truth.

Determinism = Likely not determinism in the usual sense (from Dune's overall philosophy of freedom) but in the sense of human determination.

Prince James,


Are there any websites on "Orange Catholicism", an official one you would recommend?

Water:

Alas, no. Since no one actually follows the religion (unlike Jedi philosophy which has a degree of real believers) there is no official website. The closest you'll get is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible

Here is the text from the "Dune" appendix on religion in Dune:

http://www.nkweb.net/scifi/dune/reli.htm

Heavy spoilers all throughout. If you haven't read the first book I'd recommend against reading it and I could provide you, in PM, with an edited version to avoid spoilers.

I find it funny, however, that a fake religion like Orange Catholicism is actually better than 90 percent of the religions on the planet currently. I oought to start a movement towards making it a real religion.

James R.

Just as the Bene Gesserit, and the God-Emperor himself, I believe the commandments forbid only such computers which are artificially intelligent.
Wouldn't any machine (including any computer, washing machine, even a car) be a replacement of man in one sense or another, in that it takes a task performed by man's effort and will and does it for him?
Or would that be Fundamentalist Orange Catholocism?

I don't have the time to read the link now, so I don't know if this is covered...

Where does the name "Orange" derrive from?
Is this a religion in the Dune books?

Guess the game is up.
So. I'll repost then.

The Orange Catholic Bible is from Frank Herbert's Dune.

It's a syncretic religion created in order to stop the bickering between the various factions. As Prince James has mentioned, the root commandment is "Thou shalt not disfigure the human soul."

I forget if the O.C. Doctrine was made before or after the Butlerian Jihad (or during) but the effect of being slaves to the machines for generations is readily apparent in many of the ideas espoused in the religion.

However, I disagree with bringing in the God Emperor in a way which would legitimize the use of computers. Leto was a 'heretic' and only used religion as another method to control the masses. He broke many of the precepts of the Butlerian Jihad with various machines he used. Machines which pushed the bounds of 'thinking machine.'

Leto was above commandments. He had prophecy and thus was not worried about his machines getting out of his control. He had other machines on his mind. Machines that are yet to show themselves.... (I HOPE that the last installment isn't a complete waste of time. Brian is a fucking numbskull. The prequels have so many serious problems that it shows that he has little idea what the main concepts of the series were.)


Anyway. The problem with the OC is that it is also a dogmatic religion and negates the truth of humans. The adaptive power that every human contains within him. Leto held humanity for 3500 years on his Golden Path. Leto's Peace. He caused that adaptive instinct to seethe inside its captivity. He did this purposefully. Pulling back the strings of the bow that was released in the Scattering upon his death.

It is this idea that is the prime idea to be carried from the books. Not the OC bible.

I believe it was Darwi Odrade that made the point that life is a game which rules can only be determined by jumping in and playing the game to its hilt.

This is the lesson of Dune.

Not dogma.


(And. To return to another statement I deleted earlier as requested. Frank Herbert had a wonderfully philosophical mind and it's a real pity that he never compiled a philosophical text in his lifetime. But, to respond to the replies to this deleted statement. No. Not the Orange Catholic Bible. That was not the way. That was not the message.)


One Raven,

Wouldn't any machine (including any computer, washing machine, even a car) be a replacement of man in one sense or another, in that it takes a task performed by man's effort and will and does it for him?

It's not the replacing of man that is the issue. But the replacement of man's mind.

Man's body is imperfect and it would be foolish to be such a fundamentalist to the Jihad as to stay away completely from all machinery. (Although there are those who do hold such fundamentalist views... think Amish in the real world.)

A machine with no mind is nothing but a tool. It is the mind which directs the body. It is the mind which is the crucial element to life.

It is clearly thinking machines that are the problem.

I wonder what would happen in a crossover between Asimov's universe and Herbert's? What would Leto think of R. Daneel?


Edit:
Muaha!

I've been perusing some of the Dune pages on Wikipedia and came across the page on the Chakobsa Hunting Language and this quote:
"It was Nebud Khanzir who standardized Bhotani-jib, deliberately altering the three dozen phalange consonant phonemes (or 37 in the northern dialect of Boh-Bho) and the baker's dozen epenthetic vowels (not counting the discrepancies over the rare, ill-documented occurrences of nasal vowels in the lower-class sociolects of the language) into the mirabhasa form in order to convey very fine emotional subtleties while retaining a concise form, well known to scholars (e.g., Naomi Chumpsky) who have studied the relationship between magic and religion and a secret language employed thereby."

Naomi Chumpsky.
Ha!
Wanna bet on which side of the left/right divide the author of this page falls?

One Raven:

Wouldn't any machine (including any computer, washing machine, even a car) be a replacement of man in one sense or another, in that it takes a task performed by man's effort and will and does it for him?
Or would that be Fundamentalist Orange Catholocism?

I don't have the time to read the link now, so I don't know if this is covered...

Where does the name "Orange" derrive from?
Is this a religion in the Dune books?

Yes, as the cat is out of the bag: This is a fake religion. A religion created by Frank Herbert for the Dune books. Apparently the predominate one at the time of the first book, and due to the fact that Muad'dibism and God-Emperorism (for lack of better terms) built upon the O.C.B. and Zensunnism, I'd say that it would still be a major force in religion even up till the later books in the series.

Now, no: The commandment is only "thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind". Non-thinking machines, such as mechanical contraptions of all types, are permitted, with the gray zone being such things as calculators and non-AI computers. AI computers are, however, completely banned. In essence, the idea is that to place one's destiny in the hands of an intelligence not of the human variety, is to fundementally court disaster and to ultimately weaken oneself and humanity as a whole. A machine is a tool, an AI is a being. A being can never be controlled as a tool and could be used as a replacement.

Though to be quite honest, I really don't know why it is called "Orange" Catholicism, though the latter word is used in its meaning of "universalism".

Invert:

I forget if the O.C. Doctrine was made before or after the Butlerian Jihad (or during) but the effect of being slaves to the machines for generations is readily apparent in many of the ideas espoused in the religion.

After. The Jihad's holy books are part of it.

However, I disagree with bringing in the God Emperor in a way which would legitimize the use of computers. Leto was a 'heretic' and only used religion as another method to control the masses. He broke many of the precepts of the Butlerian Jihad with various machines he used. Machines which pushed the bounds of 'thinking machine.'

The usage of computers with non-AI seems to be a point of controversy that would likely arise a great deal in Orange Catholicism. We see examples in the books of pre-God Emperor usage of computers in Snoopers (one of the few applications allowed) and certain other and valuable things, but then a complete absence otherwise. And aside from MIssionaria Protectiva macchinations, one can speak of Leto II being foretold by certain prophecies, and thus one can explain his eccentricities away with such things, as well as his ultimately non-human form. One could speak of the Worm compelling him.

Leto was above commandments. He had prophecy and thus was not worried about his machines getting out of his control. He had other machines on his mind. Machines that are yet to show themselves.... (I HOPE that the last installment isn't a complete waste of time. Brian is a fucking numbskull. The prequels have so many serious problems that it shows that he has little idea what the main concepts of the series were.)

Yes, I really hope that they don't mess up Dune 7 and 8. The prequels, whilst entertaining, are just not on the level fo Dune, and I think this is indicative of Brian Herbert being no talented, and Kevin J. Anderson probably being boxed in by Brian a bit, though Anderson is not a magnificient writer himself, just "good".

Anyway. The problem with the OC is that it is also a dogmatic religion and negates the truth of humans. The adaptive power that every human contains within him. Leto held humanity for 3500 years on his Golden Path. Leto's Peace. He caused that adaptive instinct to seethe inside its captivity. He did this purposefully. Pulling back the strings of the bow that was released in the Scattering upon his death.

Dogmatic? I would disagree. What Muad'dib and Leto II were dealing with, was not the nature of Orange Catholicism control, but rather the mindset that develops amongst humans to depend on the Cult of Personality and to seek too much certainty at the point of stagnation. To surrender their freedom blindly and not seek life in a more dynamic way, was the ultimate sin which Muad'dib and Leto II attempted to purge from the human heart.

I wonder what would happen in a crossover between Asimov's universe and Herbert's? What would Leto think of R. Daneel?

That reminds me, I really need to get to reading Asimov.

Naomi Chumpsky.
Ha!
Wanna bet on which side of the left/right divide the author of this page falls?

Ha ha!

Hm.

So, Prince James, instead of courageously crossing seven stormy seas and seven scorched deserts and seven dark forests full of dangerous spells, and instead of killing a seven-headed fire-spitting dragon (plus fighting numerous other battles, which shall not be mentioned here for the sake brevity), and then saving your beautiful princess from the mean claws of a corrupted magician -- so instead of all this, you rather sit and read fiction?

What is worse, instead of courageously crossing seven stormy seas and seven scorched deserts and seven dark forests full of dangerous spells, and instead of killing a seven-headed fire-spitting dragon (plus fighting numerous other battles, which shall not be mentioned here for the sake brevity), and then saving your beautiful princess from the mean claws of a corrupted magician -- so instead of all this, you rather sit in front of the computer and write about fake religions?


Your stallion has just become a haggard mare. :p

Naomi Chumpsky.
Ha!
Wanna bet on which side of the left/right divide the author of this page falls?

And then there was Nim Chimpsky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky

Tickle me Nim play

The poor chimpanzee.



P.S.

What if "panzy" actually has something to do with a chim-panzee?

Water,

You should really try reading dune someday. It's philosophical content is really quite profound.

And. Nim Chimpsky, eh? At least Nim was so-named for his linguistic abilities...
You know. I've gotten into furious debates about Chomsky. I find it sad that the man gave up his linguistic career and descended into politics. People revere him for his political bullshit. But, I'd have preferred him to stay and work in his originally chosen field.

You know, he really didn't contribute that much to linguistics anyway. He gave it up way back in the 60's. And everything he did contribute has pretty much been thrown out the window in the meantime.

I wonder what linguistics might be like today if he'd stayed in the field? Or if his importance has been inflated by his political worshippers? I suspect the latter.

Well, the world of human sciences is an iffy one, this much is sure.
And linguists ... they tend to be rather dubious creatures. The only proper linguists are the historians (classical philology).
The moderners ...

For one thing, linguistics is a field that has seen a lot of change and tumoult in the last 50 years or so; interdisciplinarity with other sciences (notably cognitive science) introduced changes and aspects that earlier linguists haven't foreseen.

For the other, more importantly, linguistics is one of the few areas of research where the object of research is barely defined. There is no unified definition of language, mind you.

Chomsky and the "pragmatic turn" brought an important new guideline into the way linguists think about language: instead of endlessly and fruitlessly trying to define what language is, the pragmatics focus on how language works, and this actually renders some useful results (esp. when it comes to improving communication and language acquisition).

And no, not everything Chomsky contributed "has pretty much been thrown out the window in the meantime". Far from it. The way you learn to break up sentences in school -- this is based on his theory, for example (and most kids don't even know it).

Chomsky's linguistic career was that of something like a hot-shot linguist, there were others like that before him, only that he is the one whose career we now presently can follow, in real time. Einstein's career was tumultous as well, only that now, in retrospect, we don't have a feel for it like we do for contemporary scientists.



But anyway, this thread is about Orange Catholicism. Dune? I'm not fond of philosophically profound books. I like a witty story!

Water:

A haggard mare, indeed!

But anyway, this thread is about Orange Catholicism. Dune? I'm not fond of philosophically profound books. I like a witty story!

That's a pity. It really is quite interesting.