We are currently discussing the merits, reasons, etc, for the existence of homosexuality in another thread. There are some members of this board who are openly "gay". By "gay" here I am saying either lesbian or homosexual.

I thought perhaps this might be an easier topic to handle. At the very least I expect a consensus, I really hope I have not misjudged at this juncture.

Let us confine ourselves to Pedophilia only and in that way not offend anyone, I hope.

I would say that pedophiles prey on children who are too helpless to defend themselves. It is an established fact that they receive horrible abuse when and if they go to prison. I am not condoning the abuse, just noting that even with people who are sociopathic by nature pedophilia is not condoned. Now is pedophilia just another sexual orientation or is it a mental illness? Perhaps it is neither?!?!

Let's hear it for the pedophiliacs, they are just people too! ;)

Comments?

Adlerian :cool:

<img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon10.gif"> Yes, it's a very bad thing. I doubt you will find an argument with this topic, Adlerian.

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It's all very large.

Bowser: Give it 50 years, that's how long it took for some drastic changes in societal thinking to occur in other types of sexual behavior.

I expect a lot of posts on this thread, really, I mean it!

Make that 25 years, I just looked it up!

Adlerian

[This message has been edited by Adlerian (edited May 24, 2000).]

It's my understanding that the APA (American Psychological Association) is working to declassify Pedophilia as a disorder, just like they did to homosexuality. And no, I'm not kidding.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pashley: Yes, you are correct. They are starting the same process by which other sexual behaviors are now accepted by a society that can neither think nor reason. Sad, but true. I'll see if I can dig up some info on it.

Nice to see you back, hope you had a wonderful time!

Adlerian :)

Originally posted by Adlerian:

Nice to see you back, hope you had a wonderful time!

Adlerian :)

I did thanks.

I think alot of this political correctness has to do with people not wanting to be confrontational, so they just let a behavior slide. Used to be, if you a kid was acting up bad in school, you could suspend him/her for a couple of days. If it got really out of hand, you could expel him/her. Now, if you expel a kid, they can sue you for denial of education. The kids rule the schools now.

That's why I don't put with any of this liberal feel-good crap. If it's wrong, it's wrong, and I say so. The ambivalence in society is awful.

I wonder how the homosexuals feel about pedophilia?

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pashley: I doubt that we will see much discussion here for this reason:

Indeed, as some prominent cultural observers have noted, the political drive toward ever-greater equality has turned Americans against any conclusion which entails values and consequences * resulting in our culture's trend toward rejection of all evaluative conclusions as unkind and "undemocratic." Legal scholar Robert Bork sees this as a natural consequence of democracy untethered from its Judeo-Christian roots of self-restraint and responsibility, after which it began to be dominated by the philosophy of radical egalitarianism.

I see this as the root of the problem we are facing in America today, that and an inability to think logically and rationally.

Check out this website:
http://www.massnews.com/pedophil.htm


And check out this:

This arrangement continues in the current DSMIV published in 1994; however, refinements were introduced in the diagnoses of the remaining sexual disorders. Now, a sexual disorder, such as pedophilia, cannot be diagnosed unless the client shows clinically significant distress or impairment in important areas of functioning. Thus, pedophilia, in and of itself, is no longer a disorder, a change supported by the North American Man-Boy Love Association, an organization committed to the legitimization of pedophilia.


Article by G.E. Zuriff is professor of psychology at Wheaton College and a clinical psychologist in the Medical Department of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

The original article that was published supporting pedophilia was the American Psychological Association's Psychological Bulletin, "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples," by Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch and Robert Bauserman, in July 1998.

What a sad day. :(

Adlerian

Yes, and they don't give a damn about the emotional cripples these perverts leave in their wake.

I'll tell you right now, if I ever catch some pedophile touching my boy, I'll beat that bastard to a pulp.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

In some societies, fondling the genetalia of children is a normal and accepted cultural practice.

Brian

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Hmm... Who wants to touch Brian's last comment? I myself am affraid to ask.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited May 24, 2000).]

Originally posted by Brian:
In some societies, fondling the genetalia of children is a normal and accepted cultural practice.

Brian

What society? And because they do it, does not make it right.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Brian: Please list the source of your information. Do you believe that what you said causes no harm?

From Brian's post it is easy to see that those who will bring pedophilia into our society, and by the way, I believe it will become acceptable, have already made inroads into the minds of the society.

Adlerian :(

What society? And because they do it, does not make it right.

egads!?!???
If it is socially acceptable, then it absolutely is right. Your society is not universally correct.

Everything is socially defined.

Also, there should be some definitions produced. What do you mean by pedophilia? Age 30 with someone age 12? Age 30 with someone 17? 15? Where are the boundaries? 15 and 15?

Of course, the boundaries are socially defined. It's all well and good to say pedophilia is evil, or to say that "murder" is evil. Yet America murders people every day in the name of "justice". Everything is socially defined.

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Good point, Dave. Most adults would find that having sex with a young person (child) repugnant. That's why we establish rules about such things--to protect the young from those who don't know better. I imagine that some societies are still evolving from their primitive origins.

Personally, I feel that it is an abuse of sickening dimensions to take that form of advantage of the young--much like the military draft of eighteen-year-olds.



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It's all very large.

Has anyone considered two effects of removing pedophilia from the DSM?

* Pedophiles will no longer be able to use insanity as a criminal defense. Specifically, it will be much more difficult to present that defense.

* If we are to determine that pedophilia is symptomatic, and not of its own independent cause, removing it from one classification, and recognizing it as another presents new options of treatment.

Just curious ... it seems to me that these two aspects of redefining pedophilia might actually help society prepare to address the issues.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by tiassa:


* If we are to determine that pedophilia is symptomatic, and not of its own independent cause, removing it from one classification, and recognizing it as another presents new options of treatment.



It's my understanding that pedophiles have about the highest recicidivism (sp?) rate there is. Virtually incurable.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

DaveW: Hey, thanks for showing up in my thread!!!! :) :) :) Great to see you!!! Thanks again for the terrific board! I have never met a nicer group of people on the internet, even the ones with whom I disagree.

Actually Dave, there are other definitions other than social. If society defined pedophilia as a good thing would that make it so? Obviously not. The laws of this country are not "socially defined". They are defined by the Supreme Court when needed as as ULTIMATE source of authority for definition.

The Proposition in California that would have outlawed EEO status for employment was struck down by the court in California as being unconstitutional. Social definition was that the current laws were bad and the court said otherwise. Guess who won?

Tiassa: Perhaps you should review the change in definition again in the case of pedophilia. First, as Pashley pointed out the recidivism rate for pedophilia is virtually nil. This is why they passed the Megan law. ALL child molestors shall be indentified because they cannot be cured. Also by your example other sexual preferences should have had other effects once they changed their definition of them but they didn't.

Nice to see some action in this thread.

But what about, "Let's here it for the Pedophiles, they're people too"?

I mean after all they are just people, right? ;)

Adlerian

The laws of this country are not "socially defined". They are defined by the Supreme Court when needed as as ULTIMATE source of authority for definition.

Judges are people, are they not? The people who wrote the laws are also people. The law is the most formal embodyment of social will. Of course, the law to some extent helps shape and define social values, but it still is/was defined by humans with all their imperfections.

So untill we develop super-ethical robots who somehow tap into the mythical universal ethical force that we can't see through our layers of social bias, we really can't say anything is "good" or "evil".

Pash--

It's my understanding that pedophiles have about the highest recicidivism (sp?) rate there is. Virtually incurable.

So if I'm reading you correctly, you are suggesting that our previous regard for pedophilia as its own insanity has helped control or fix the problem?

Consider, for a moment, something a little less damaging than pedophilia. Say you know Bob, who drinks too much, snorts lines, cheats on his wife, and gambles away the family car every few weeks. So we send him to Alcoholics, Cokeheads, and Gamblers Anonymous; I might remind you that in my own life, we have regarded these problems as primary and not symptomatic. I'm happy, in that sense, that it's changing.

So you get Bob to stop drinking so much, drop his coke habit, and control his gambling problem. He pops over to a counselor, who helps him stop cheating on his wife. Theoretically, he's cured. Or is he? Has anyone in that chain of well-intended helpers stopped to think of why Bob drinks, snorts, screws, and gambles?

Unless Bob cracks the foundation of whatever unhappiness or conditions compel him to booze, philander, gamble, and rail, his unhappiness will merely find another, possibly even more destructive method of manifestation.

Likewise, we might treat pedophilia as symptomatic. Perhaps we might then find some better insight into its causes, and thus find some insight in how to control its development.

Or is it more important to catch and punish them?

But what about, "Let's here it for the Pedophiles, they're people too"?

I don't know, what about it? I'm sorry, dude, but I just can't believe you're that dumb. Really, I can't; there's no sarcasm there. But you really do seem to enjoy ignoring people's words and ideas so that you can describe them yourself. Get over it, really. I suppose next you'll be arguing, what ...?

I guess it's like when I agree with this or that acquittal of an obviously guilty person; it isn't that I support their actions, but that I expect my government to adhere to its rules; if it fails to do so .... There's a huge issue here, so if I might touch on its nature: Look at how the US busted the cigarette industry. Needed to happen, but look at how it happened. Because the government was so desperate to nail the industry, we've set a procedural precedent that can be executed against gun manufacturers, auto manufacturers, and booze companies.

But you're a bright guy. So I'll trust your assessment. Quite obviously, the old way of handling things worked so well.

top o'the day,
Tiassa ;)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Tiassa: Thanks for the laugh! Really, I mean we DO have our differences but that made my day! :) My point was that since that line of defence was used elsewhere as a rebuttal it should be able to be shoehorned in just about anywhere and work. The point of my sarcasm was that it has nil to do with anything and is an classic example of a non-thinking statement.

As far as child molesting being symptomatic is concerned I take it that you would rather look to blame others for the behavior of the perpetrators. It is your right to believe that however they haven't found a cure for sexual addictions that are that sociopathic. By the time that addiction evidences itself in behavior it is too late for a cure, hence, the Megan law.

Personally? I think they should be fried in the electric chair. The detriment that they cause society is heinous. People rarely can be healed of the scars left by such abuse. They ruin lives. I have no compassion on criminals, just their victims, which is where it should belong.

Right back at ya, good buddy, ;)

Adlerian

DaveW:

we really can't say anything is "good" or "evil".

It is nice to know where you stand.

See ya later

Originally posted by DaveW:
humans with all their imperfections.

So untill we develop super-ethical robots who somehow tap into the mythical universal ethical force that we can't see through our layers of social bias, we really can't say anything is "good" or "evil".

Good is what we like; evil is what we don't like. If we can't tell the difference we are in big trouble.


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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Tiassa,

Look, if people want to research a cure or treatment for pedophiles, fine. But they need to be locked away due to the fact that they DO re-offend, and often.

Kids are more important. Let's protect them.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Alderian--

As far as child molesting being symptomatic is concerned I take it that you would rather look to blame others for the behavior of the perpetrators. It is your right to believe that however they haven't found a cure for sexual addictions that are that sociopathic.

You're buying into one of the oldest myths of criminal prosecution. Consider the Miranda statement: for years, police were required to read these rights to criminals at the time of their arrest. When I was in high school, conservatives began complaining about Miranda "giving rights to criminals". We know the difference between accused and guilty, so I don't think we need to fight there. But those conservatives were overlooking the historically demonstrable trend of abuse of power which made the Miranda decision so critical. I mean, if a bunch of cops in the south hadn't beaten the holy crap out of Ernesto Miranda for a rape he didn't commit ... if they hadn't beaten him senseless for the crime of being Hispanic and out of work ... well?

Now, as this applies to pedophilia: Despite your need to perpetuate the problem in order to fight it ... well, that's up to you. But I have another story. This one's quicker.

* Donnie is born. Period. One day he's born. He grows up ... perhaps he has a bad family situation, perhaps it's stable enough that the rest of society will kid themselves into thinking it's a good family situation. For whatever reasons (which we don't really know yet, but that's the point!, Donnie takes a fancy for little girls. Donnie assaults a little girl, and is sent to jail until he dies. About the time Donnie assaulted the little girl, a boy named Joe is born. Joe grows up, perhaps a good family, perhaps a bad. For whatever reason, Joe takes a fancy for little girls .....

Wouldn't it be nice if we could identify the point at which Joe or Donnie went bad? Once we view pedophilia as symptomatic, we can start chasing that point. Perhaps we won't lock up a given child molester because, oh, he never started.

But, I admit, crime and punishment is more important. After all, it's a growth industry with profitable aspects.

We can fry offender after offender as long as you like. But we're never going to get to the answer unless we try a few different perspectives on for size. Rose-colored glasses are nice, but we well know that some objects will disappear into the tint. Certes, crime and punishment is fine, but what are we not seeing in the meantime?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Pash--

You're demonstrating a wonderful little problem. You apparently are so focused on the idea of punishing a pedophile after he's raped a kid that you aren't considering how to prevent those rapes from occurring in the first place.

And we wonder why crime in general, not just pedophilia, is so problematic.

:rolleyes:

thanx
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Hello All,

If I remember correctly, the societies in which the fondling of children was found to be a normal and acceptable part of their culture were found in New Guinea and Micronesia. Such findings were the result of research done by an American Nobel Prize laureate who was a pediatrician (and microbiologist, if I remember correctly) researching child development on a global basis.

I'll try to find more details.

Thanks,

Brian

Greetings -

**pashley: "I'll tell you right now, if I ever catch some pedophile touching my boy, I'll beat that bastard to a pulp."

**Adlerian: "Personally? I think they should be fried in the electric chair."

Well now, if this doesn't reek of jesus and christianity, what does?

Disgustedly,
FyreStar

Huzah for mob justice!

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Hmm... Being a parent, I can sympathize more with the comments of Adlerian and pashley than the mental health needs of a known pedophile.



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It's all very large.

Ok, just to spice it up:

Should we try to differentiate between rape and consentual intercourse? Obviously, rape is bad -- whether it's done to children or adults is a secondary issue. But what if a society (hypothetically, of course) accepts pedophelia as normal, and children accept it as normal, and no relationship is allowed to lawfully form between a child and an adult if it is not condoned by the child -- then who's getting hurt (and in what way?) Now, admittedly the situation is hypothetical and could never occur in practice -- because adults are much better at taking advantage of children than children are at resisting adult coersion. But then I have to ask: what is it about pedophilia that is truly revulsive -- the sexual aspects of it, or rape and coersion?

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I am; therefore I think.

FyreStar,

Well now, if this doesn't reek of jesus and christianity, what does?

Since you brought it up - as a follow-up to my response about what do I think of Christians/Christianity:

The expressions themselves came from frightened, angry and seemingly hate-filled "individuals" - I would never have associated those types of statements with true followers of the Jesus Christ that I have read about.

Thanks,

Brian

Originally posted by tiassa:
Pash--

You're demonstrating a wonderful little problem. You apparently are so focused on the idea of punishing a pedophile after he's raped a kid that you aren't considering how to prevent those rapes from occurring in the first place.

And we wonder why crime in general, not just pedophilia, is so problematic.

:rolleyes:

thanx
Tiassa :cool:




I'm all for prevention, Tiassa, but there will never be 100% prevention. Life is not that predictable. Some parents will do everything right, and the perp will still come into being.

First of all, protect the kids; second, punish the hell out of the perps; third, look for treatments/prevention. (I don't hold much hope for prevention)


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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Originally posted by FyreStar:
Greetings -

**pashley: "I'll tell you right now, if I ever catch some pedophile touching my boy, I'll beat that bastard to a pulp."

**Adlerian: "Personally? I think they should be fried in the electric chair."

Well now, if this doesn't reek of jesus and christianity, what does?

Disgustedly,
FyreStar



Don't give us that crap, Fyre. While we are always ready to forgive someone that feels true repentence, as is God, those that keeping sinning deserve punishment.

Would should we do, just love Hitler? :rolleyes:

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Originally posted by Boris:
...But then I have to ask: what is it about pedophilia that is truly revulsive -- the sexual aspects of it, or rape and coersion?



You mean the depression, lack of trust, anxiety, and other sociopathic behaviors that usually occur?

Or the taking away of innocence? The ability for the child to share their first time with someone they love?

The possible pregnancy or STDs?

Other than that, I can't see any problems either :rolleyes:

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Originally posted by Brian:

The expressions themselves came from frightened, angry and seemingly hate-filled "individuals" - I would never have associated those types of statements with true followers of the Jesus Christ that I have read about.

Thanks,

Brian



Am I frightened and hateful of pedophiles? Yes. I make no apologies, Brian. I don't know what kind of Christians you are talking about, but this one IS human, and based in reality. I try to understand the motivations of people and try to at least, get along with them, and I try to trust that God will take care of what needs to be done. THAT is what kind of Christian I am. I trust God, yes, but I lock the doors anyway.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pashley,

So basically you are choosing rape and coersion, as I suspected. The only reason I asked, is that judging by the first couple of posts on this thread there appeared to be some kind of a sly attempt to draw a parallel between pedophilia and homosexuality. Note that homosexuality does not normally involve rape or coersion. That's really all I wanted to say here.

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I am; therefore I think.

pashley -

**pashley: "Don't give us that crap, Fyre. While we are always ready to forgive someone that feels true repentence, as is God, those that keeping sinning deserve punishment."

And as long as they don't piss you off. Don't try to feed me that bullshit. You are using your god to rationalize your hatred.

**pashley: "Would should we do, just love Hitler?"

Why don't you re-read the words of your own supposed savior and tell me.

Fyre, I'll stand by what I said.

Love the sinner, hate the sin. Yeah, I'm human, and sometimes can't get over the hating of a pedophile. What, you love them?

Pashley,

You wrote,

---------------
"First of all, protect the kids; second, punish the hell out of the perps; third, look for treatments/prevention. (I don't hold much hope for prevention)"
--------------

How do you protect the kids without first preventing the act? The issue is to protect children. If the perp is already being punished then society has failed to protect our children and the laws concerning pedophilia are not there for the welfare of the victim. Punishing the perp will only give the onlookers a sense of justice the child will still have their scares. As you have said yourself a pedophile is incurable, do you believe that a beating from you or time in jail will cure their missguided sense of sexuallity? that would be niave don't you think. Incurable means that beating them isn't going to do squat. Hence the solution is PREVENTION. It serves the best interest of everyone involved even the "just human" pedophiles. Most of all it serves society it doesn't force society to harm/kill the offender. A government sanctioned kill is still murder, a government sanctioned imprisonment is still the denial of civil rights. Punishment of any serious crime is a failiure...we should be working towrds prevention in any and all cases that can be prevented.

pashley -

**pashley: "Yeah, I'm human, and sometimes can't get over the hating of a pedophile. What, you love them?"

:)
Why, no, pashley.. but neither do I claim to follow the words of the christian god or his supposed son. Consequently, I am not a hypocrite. And its too bad that you confuse the greatness of the human mind with a moral impediment.

FyreStar

Rambler -

Nicely put. I am in agreement with you here.

Pash--

So, then, the best thing to do is to leave pedophilia classed by psychiatrists in a manner which allows a pedophile a natural insanity defense? Why do you think they're sent to hospitals and not prisons?

You know, hospitals from which they can be discharged?

--Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Rambler:

I am in agreement with you; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. However, i'm not sure how you prevent pedophilia, at least in the developmental stage. Treating it, once it has been discovered, should be pursued, yes, but treatments don't seem to be that effective, don't you agree? Doesn't mean we should not pursue treatments, we should.

Fyre:

I don't know what your point was.

Tiassa:

Yes, leave it classified as a mental illness. It is, isn't it? I find your assumption that pedophilia is used as an insanity defense hard to believe, in that I think a jury would not buy into it. Has it happened? Probabley, but certainly not often.

Lock them up, treat them in prison.

And as far as the comment I made regarding beating them up, ask yourselves if you would not feel the same way if it was YOUR child.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pash--

So ... nothing causes pedophilia?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:



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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by tiassa:
Pash--

So ... nothing causes pedophilia?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Oh man. Of course something causes it, probabley a prediposition genetically, as well as social factors. Duh.

Pash--

Good. We can agree that pedophilia might have a cause independent of itself?

Now, wipe that dripping sarcasm from your smirking lips. Because that's the whole point.

Now, I might remind you of where I, personally, enter this particular debate:

From my 5/25 post:

Has anyone considered two effects of removing pedophilia from the DSM?
* Pedophiles will no longer be able to use insanity as a criminal defense. Specifically, it will be much more difficult to present that defense.

* If we are to determine that pedophilia is symptomatic, and not of its own independent cause, removing it from one classification, and recognizing it as another presents new options of treatment.

Just curious ... it seems to me that these two aspects of redefining pedophilia might actually help society prepare to address the issues.

Now ... it seems to me that if our primary focus is on punishment, that's fine. But put Chester the Molester away, and next week you're after Touchy Tucci, and the week after that Oral Pete.

So ... convict Oral Pete and send him to jail ... wait. We know he's guilty, and that furthermore he's dangerous, but the prevailing literature classes pedophilia as a primary psychological disorder, so we have to send him to a hospital both to assess the severity of Pete's condition, and to try to break him of the habit. Now, theoretically, if we're treating pedophilia as a disorder unto itself, some form of Pavlovian conditioning ought to work. (Schick Hospitals used electroshock therapy to break cigarette smokers, so it is possible to break such habitual behavior that way.) But the point is that if we treat pedophilia as its own cause, we're treating Oral Pete like Bob the Gambling-Fornicating-Boozing-Cokehead. Now, maybe, as a doctor, I would want to take a different approach to Oral Pete, one that worked much like Bob's therapy, where we chase the source of the behavior instead of combat the behavior directly. But, guess what ...? I can't. Rather, I can. But if anything at all goes wrong, whether directly part of my method or not, it's up Shit Creek because I'm treating the disorder in a manner not prescribed by the prevailing literature.

The entire points that I've cited from my 5/25 post essentially equate with the following:

* Reclassification may have an effect on how an accused pedophile pleads before the court; furthermore, reclassification may affect the sentencing guidelines, so that various threats to society go to prison instead of to a hospital from which they can be easily discharged for any number of subjective reasons not prescribed as terms of sentencing.

* Reclassification may have an effect on how we view the fundamental processes of pedophilia, so that we might reduce the number of pedophiles statistically present in society. For instance, we might find that the only way to reduce pedophilia is to get over our societal analisms regarding general sexuality. For instance, we might find that it is truly a genetic thing that can be blanched in utero.

But as long as our primary focus is crime and punishment, our best harvest will bear only more criminals to punish. I might rephrase your sentence, but that would be sticking vicious words in your mouth.

Suffice it to be expressed thus: Of course pedophilia has causes ... what, then, are we all righteous enough that we need not actively seek such causes? Or is it prevention enough to hope we'll trip across a gem in this wasteland?

I quote Maude Flanders: "Think of the children! Won't someone please think of the children!"

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Pash--

Would should we do, just love Hitler?

Okay ... just a sec ...

Love the sinner, hate the sin. Yeah, I'm human, and sometimes can't get over the hating of a pedophile. What, you love them?

Alright ... those two should start.

A) Love the sinner, hate the sin. Okay, now read the rest of your paragraph and try that again.

B) This, as with your second quote, is a beautiful example of a rhetorical trap which I find quite limited, and tiresome, though the tiresome part isn't your fault. Essentially, you're setting your own opposition; because people won't believe exactly what you think they should, they must obviously believe the most horrifying polar opposite possible.

However, in either case, I am left to answer you with a question:

W.W.J.D.?

Love the sinner, hate the sin. It's a fair question, I think. As with other critical questions still outstanding, I anxiously await your thoughts.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:



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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

And I have no clue what you are looking for. :rolleyes:

Why doesn't that surprise me in the slightest? Of course, I must admit that I'm surprised you bothered admitting it at this point; I knew that the moment I read your 5/25 post reminding me of the recidivism rate of sex offenders. I knew it because you had no idea whether you were being relevant or not. I say that because, truth be told, your recidivism post merely proves the point to which you were responding, which was--since I'm quite sure you have either forgotten, don't care, or never knew--that in reclassing pedophilia, you cut away part of the offender's ability to escape firmer justice, and furthermore allow new methods in prevention.

peaceful day,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Pashley,

Good is what we like; evil is what we don't like. If we can't tell the difference we are in big trouble.

Who is "we" ???

Have you ever heard of cross-cultural morality issues?

Thanks,

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited June 01, 2000).]

Pashley,

Am I frightened and hateful of pedophiles? Yes. I make no apologies, Brian. I don't know what kind of Christians you are talking about, but this one IS human, and based in reality.

I did not ask for your apology. We are all human. What I was pointing out to FyreStar was that individuals who "call" themselves Christians are not necessarily representative of Christianity in its true sense. The type of Christians I am talking about are also human, but they follow the lead of Jesus Christ.

For example, as a hateful and vengeful individual, you are not really representative of what is meant by Christianity in its true sense - living a Christ-like life - a life like that of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Instead, you represent a faction of Christians "in name only" which many people have come to know and to despise throughout history. You know, the type that espouses taking violent vengeance against certain sinners by beating them to a pulp, burning them at the stake, etc...

Thanks,

Brian

Brian,

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this trend.

Unfortunately, it's not limited to just Christianity either. Every religion I am aware of has this problem. Too bad there isn't a way to instantly tell if someone's wearing a religion instead of living it, huh?

Not really relevant, I suppose, but wanted to say I appreciate your point.

Originally posted by Brian:


For example, as a hateful and vengeful individual, you are not really representative of what is meant by Christianity in its true sense - living a Christ-like life - a life like that of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Instead, you represent a faction of Christians "in name only" which many people have come to know and to despise throughout history. You know, the type that espouses taking violent vengeance against certain sinners by beating them to a pulp, burning them at the stake, etc...

Thanks,

Brian

Wow, now I'm a hateful and vengeful individual because I don't like pedophiles?

Look, I'm trying to follow the What Would Jesus Do? philosophy. By no means I am a perfect Christian, no one is. That's part of the reason I AM Christian, because I am in sin, and need Jesus to relieve me of the sin.

I'm not perfect, never will be. But it's good to know I don't have to be.

Again, I don't condone violence against anyone, but aren't I allowed to have feelings too? I am trying to overcome hateful feelings I may have, and letting God take care of things. I don't have to be perfect to be a Christian.

And I'll thank you to not lump me in a group; I am an individual.

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"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pashley,

And I'll thank you to not lump me in a group; I am an individual

Ahhh, so you DO understand what it's like to be judged based on what others do..and not to be judged as an individual. Good. :)

Originally posted by Flash:
Pashley,

Ahhh, so you DO understand what it's like to be judged based on what others do..and not to be judged as an individual. Good. :)

...and your point is what?

The term pedophile is nothing more than another contrived human label that denotes one's "sexuality", which if you've read my post on the "gay" thread, I don't believe in such a thing being "inherent" in anyway. It is erroneous intent regarding sex, just like any other type of erroneous or selfish or destructive intent regarding sex. The detrimental and destructive effects of which are more profound in this particular circumstance though, because of the icreased innocence and vulnerability of children versus adults. Most adults that participate in sex consentually for with the wrong intentions already have had their hearts hardened in one way or another, which allows them to perpetuate their malintent. But rape is another story, and any type of pedophillia is rape. And these are the sins which harden our hearts in the first place. And this phenomenon in itself and it's effects prove the existance of sin, and of an inherent good vs evil.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

The biggest problem with pedophilia is all the ruined lives that are left in its wake! Children should never be used as sexual objects. There is no way they will understand or consent to that. I think pedophiles are probably emotionally and socially damaged. Maybe they never outgrew their own traumas or found it easier to prey on children, than to develop mature relationships with women. We all have to learn the rules to dating and mating, thats part of growing up. In other words when they hit puberty, they never outgrew their confusion and instead fixated on abnormal behavior.
It seems that these pedophiles have hundreds of victims. And all these victims live lives full of pain, some re-inacting the same pain on new victims. So this problem expands exponetially, until one day every child will have been molested? I hope not!!
The majority of people that are pedophiles seem to be men, which is one of the reasons that lead me to believe that boys/men are very fragile creatures. That we are easily damaged emotionally and socially, and take that damage out on others. I'm not using that as an excuse, since not every boy turns into a serial killer. But we sure need a lot of emotional support. Remember that, all you parents!!
The innocence destroyed is the most heinious aspect of all this. Children can be corrupted and damaged by all sorts of things, I'm thinking of all the little kids I've seen dressed in gang colors. Boy what a legacy they're passing on to their kids!! All they need are the play Uzis.
Whether we as a society finally accept these acts, may very well decide what type of future we have. The end of hope for our culture, just like Rome? The end of time if God says our days are numbered. Mene, Mene, Tekel, Parsin (Daniel 5:25)?