does it already exist?

Have we already lost our sovereignty without our knowledge and agreement to?

I took Mike's last post (June 9, 1999 01:01 PM) from DaveW's post, (I hope you don't mind, Mike) and have included it here because I thought it was appropriate for this topic:

(Mike)
"Most Americans I have ever met always come out with the same line, " We`re from the land of the free." and then they waffle on about thier constitution for a bit. But it seems apparent that the US government has no regard for it`s people and thier basic civil rights.

I presume this project was funded primarily by the US government, so my question to you guys is this. How can an apparently democratic government fund a project which undoubtably costs several hundred million dollars, "tax payers dollers" Without authorisation from your Congress first?

As your President can only stay in office for two terms, is he informed of the systems existence?

If he is aware on an official level, then surely he has then broken his oath of office in protecting the civil rights of the people?

If he is not aware, then who is?

The implications are staggering, stop and think.....

A person or persons who are where not elected, are spending hundreds of millions of your dollars on something you certainely didn`t ask for, violates your civil rights, and they spent your money without asking the politians you elected.

See my point? You fellas have got major problems, and it`s alot more serious than having a stranger read your email before you do."

*How much is our government truly keeping from us? Is it acceptable as long as it is for our "best interest"? Is this what we want for ourselves and our children?*

Bev :)



[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 09, 1999).]

Well, Bev, I actually don't mind losing my sovereignty and abandoning all this nationalism for a unified world government. As long as the new government is built on the right principles, that is.

A unified world government would finally mean an end to all those idiotic border squabbles, mass slaughters of innocents, and that insidious national pride that always leads to the rise of Hitlers and Milocevics. We could finally stop rivaling each other, and start living as true friends and neighbors, and growing through cooperation rather than conflict. And when the wars on this planet are over, we can finally move on to the next great chapter of human history -- interplanetary war! :(

But, of course, I am only for a world government that is democratic, fair, accountable, counterbalanced through and through, and featuring a quick turn-over of officials so no one ambitious asshole stays in power too long. However, if what you suggest is really happening -- some kind of a shady alliance of egalitarian power among world leaders -- then by all means to hell with it!!!

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Bev,

I don`t believe in a one world government or any other black op conspiracy theory, I do feel that a system such as echelon "if it actually exists?" does have positive attributes, as well as the obvious negative ones.

However, I do believe that somewhere down the line the US government has lost the plot. 50 years of cold war has created an organisation that does whatever it wants, whenever it feels like, with no consideration to anyones civil rights, all in the name of national security.

Who defines what`s in the interest of national security? May be the same people who decided to fund echelon? So who appoints these people? They couldn`t have been put there by your Congress because Congress didn`t know anything about it.

So who calls the shots? They say if you go high enough evenually you get to one man, or woman. But in this case is the person in the know your President?

If it`not, then isn`t that communism?

One World - One Mind? No chance.

If we tear down the current borders, there will be new ones. Ever seen the turf wars in our big cities Boris? Do you think we all get along now in the US?

No way, man. Distance breeds suspicion and suspicion leads to dishonesty among tribes.

Too many people on this planet have differing views of how each man should live, so there will always be a struggle for control - even if there is one world government.

"insidious national pride that always leads to the rise of Hitlers and Milocevics"

...or to the rise of superpowers who violate the sovereignty of other nations as entertainment for their populace. America is a society where morality and ethics are pushed aside for the economic and political interests of the ruling elite. America is just as fascist as Nazi Germany, and even more terrifying since no one realizes this fact.

One world government. It sounds really wonderful to some, and really scary to others. But not to fear, I doubt it will happen while we're around.
The UN was around for over 40 years before it ever came to a concensus on anything. The EU is always arguing about some minor point or another, Canada can't decide what language it wants to speak, and the liberals in this country are always harping about "multiculturalism".
What's that old joke? "Two's company; three's a war." As long as there's a perceived inequality anywhere in the world, there's going to be at least two sides.
And then there's always the Capitalist, Fascist, evil, homophobic, forced-child-laboring, rich, mean Americans to deal with; how could there be peace with us around?

DaveW,

America is a fascist state. True.

You just forgot to mention one other thing.

We're all monkeys.

Congress does approve measures such as the monitoring program. On the budget, there is a special item for National Security items, too sensitive to release to the public. No one but those involved in the project know what these are.

Is this a bad thing? No. Sound strange? It should. But we cannot wage effective warfare without secrets. It is a simple fact.

The one world government will not come from a conscious decision to tear down barriers, but out of necessity. The things that we choose to "have faith" in are like eggshells. The systems, the economies, the leaders, the weapons...are all but very WEAK and DEADLY substitutes for the ONE true power. That is why I focus attention to the topic of aliens. What one thing could bring us to our knees? What one thing could bring about a global union? What one thing could usher in the Antichrist...our false saviour? Saviour from what????

------------------
God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

I don`t believe in aliens, perceived as the greys everyone talks about. I am open to the issue of life elsewhere in the universe, this is another issue. I do not either believe in God, or any Gods, demi-Gods, or to that fact any mystical being as the source of all creation.

A one world government could never exist on this planet, at this time in human evolution. This I feel is due to human indifference, cultural misunderstanding and unacceptance.

May be in another 10,000 years when we`ve all grown up a little, it might be possible, but not yet.

I think a global government is inevitable in the long run and might very well be accumplished in the next millenium. There are all ready some forms of global organisation who are gaining in power and momentum. In concreto I'm thinking of the worldbank and the international court in Den Haag (or The Hague for the non dutch speaking part of the world ;) ). You 'll laugh and say that the worldbank is totally controlled by the rich western countries and the court has no real power, that Milosevic will go free. But the thing is that they are there, they are the knobs ready to blossom if spring comes.
We could take the European union as an example of a scenario of how such an international organisation will eventually come into being. You have here a continent who dominated the known world like Rome did in his time, it smashes itself and its power to pieces in two of the most cruel and destructive wars humanity has seen up until this date. At the middle of the century there was nothing more to fight about, the world was divided in a eastern and western influence sfere and the old continent struggled for a new place in a new world. Finally after 1500 years since the fall of the Roman empire it was realised that working together was much more lucrative then fighting against each other. Sworn enemies decided to give up a bit of their soveranity in favor of a supranational organisation who would oversee this new cooperation. Since then there have been many setbacks : four paces forward, three back, but we have a unified currency, in the last top it was decided that Nato boss Solana is going to become head of some kind of European gouvernment, also there have been some concrete decisions about one coordinated European army. At the same time however the countries still have their soverenity about lot's of different issues. They are free to choose how much of the power of the national parlements is transferred to the european parlement.

Technology is bringing people from all over the world more and more together. This very discussion proves that, I would love to have some people of Asia and Africa join in though but the language and the infrastructure poses still some problems. This is only true for now, I don't think it will be long until everyone can write in his own language to the internet and a piece of software will do the translations. Further more look at what the eastern countries accomplished in the last half century with their economies. There is no reason why Africa couldn't do the same thing in the coming century. It's even very likely when the wages are going to increase in the eastern countries, multinationals will search other cheap laber countries and that is just what the African countries are. Of course they are still in a process of decolonisation, that's where their cival wars come from. We (europeans :( ) kind of screwed them up big time and they are still searching their equilibrium. Once they have stabelised and I think South Africa is a good example, progress is inevitable.

------------------
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

DaveW.. i totally agree with you.

Plato. I belive you have many things right about the EU, and Europe. .The problem with EU is that they have a hard time dealing with their problems. They have a hard time making a decicion about anything. and tho EU sounds like a good step towards peace in Europe, i doubt that EU will last as a whole.

I really dont believe that they would dare to centralize an army together. For that i believe the French are too egoistic, The Germans are allowed a limited army, The Swedish are too neutraul, Italy too corrupt and so on..

This might be a silly argument, but behind the flag of the European Union, all the countries are more or less soverign, and fight for their cause in the parliament.. so in theory the EU is a very good idea, but it seems much harder to actually do it.

So to my point.

I really do not believe that there will be a World government.. unless something big that is a threat to our world happens. be it a rock hurling towards us, Aliens telling us to be nice for once, or some other major happening.

This might be a silly comparison tho, but in the movie Independence day, they made it like all the world joined to kick alien butt.

What else could there be?


--------
more is better

Hello Bev, I do belive that after 50 years of cold war the government or who ever is in charge does and will do as they please. In the last few weeks, in the island of Vieques situated 3 miles east of Puerto Rico, The military has been using the island for their trainning with live amo. For as long as I could remember the local population has been trying to get the government to remove the troops from the island. The entire time that the military has been there, 4 civilians have died from military related incidents. The last one happend about 8 weeks ago,and yet no one was brought to charges. The last person to die there was in result of a mis guided misile, the local government has been doing as much as posible to get then out but with out any results. The problem there is that the government is only leasing the land for trainning and yet our government can't find a way of getting the military out. Know getting back to the issue, the gobernment is doing what ever they want and will continue to do so even with this beautiful island. The consequences don't matter to them even after distroying what ever is left of beauty in the island. From my point of view they will never leave the island.

DaveW:
We may be presumptious, imperialistic and manipulative to say the least. But I wouldn't call us fascist. What we are in truth is: a bully. While we are still bigger and stronger than the other kids, we'll have our way. But when the other kids grow up, U.S. will have to learn humility in order to survive. Btw. concerning the Ugoslavian war, I'm in full support of it. That asshole (and his entire regime) doesn't deserve to be a leader of his people, and I doubt many of his people would support him so much if only they had the opportunity to see both sides of the story.

As far as a unified world government. I think it'll happen much sooner than any of you realize. Global commerce, tourism, information and workforces will make sure of that. Yes, there will always be some kind of inter-group tension (be it racial, ethnic, north-south, east-west, religious -- you name it) -- but there will never again be a world war once a world government is established. Which is definitely something to look forward to. Finally, I do agree with Plato that EU is a model of how it will happen. Initially, there of course will be squabbles and rivalries. But in a couple of generations, Europeans will view themselves exactly as such -- diverse peoples of a unified continent. Asia, South America, Africa -- should not be too far behind. And then -- let the continents unite! So I am optimistic that a unified world government will come into existence within 100 years.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

I truly believe that a one world government is in place. I'm sure that anyone of our elected officials would heartily argue otherwise, but I think democracy has just become a masquerade.

The foundation is there; NATO, UN, World bank, International court, etc...

Our Congress knows about the "echelon", as well. It is currently being investigated.

The point that I was trying to make is by what authority is all this taking place. I certainly have had no say-so in the matter. I know that I took part in electing our officials into office, that I can call them at any time and voice my opinions, but I don't think they, nor I, have the real power.

The "echelon" is a perfect example of what a world gov't might have in mind for us all - nothing is private, everything must be public domain for the good of the whole. They are not asking, they are taking!
Sounds a little like communism to me.

In a perfect world, I can see the benefits of a world government. But, this isn't a perfect world (our gov't has shown clearly, over and over that our voice is irrelevent and inconsequential)and history does tend to repeat itself.

I don't want to sound like I am some kind of "alarmist", because I'm not. I just have to question the issue. I try to analyze the evidence in a rational and mature, conscientious manner, but I always come up with the same conclusion...what I want for myself as well as ALL others - civil rights, privacy and respect for what's mine - doen't mean SHIT (forgive me) to the people in power.The only thing that is important to them is my pocket book and how they can control it.

Have a nice day!
Bev :)

I believe that a one world government is possible and is happening.

They do not tell us the truth about what they are doing with UFOs and extraterrestrials, do they? Therefore, we have lost out freedom in a way.

Yes, when you keep going higher up, you reach a man, but it is not the president, it is the ringleader of the conspiracy of silence that the government has imposed on us, the American public, for so long. I say we stand up for our rights and fight to know the truth!

The problems that the EU faces is the simple reason for why a one world government can't exist, there are just too many people with different cultural needs. We as Europeans may be able to bond together as equal nations, but totally separate continents coming together is almost incomprehendable.

However, the EU is becoming more economically powerful, and I believe that the US doesn't like this. The emergence of another major player is something that the US is against, and will want to find someway to stop.

Only time will tell.....

If anyone is interested in global domination, one-world government conspiracies, etc. Check out www.trufax.org. (http://www.trufax.org.) Excellent site with a wealth of very good information!

Mmmm..........a world government?
Can you really emagine Aussies and Kiwi's agreeing on any point?
Really though, who will run this New WORLD ORDER? the USA ................sorry the world is full of paitroits who are not from the usa.All Australians love their country
as do most nations,it would be childish to think any nation will lay down and surrender???????? it si a big ask.

We are humans beings happily destroying everything in our path.
A one world government will never exist because too many greedy bastards get into power and then only think of themselves and what they can milk out of society.
Humans will never change, we are what we are and nothing will alter that fact. Evil outnumbers the good in our societies and always it reigns above us. There is no sincerity in governments or the people who run them.

Anybody tell me what the echelon theroy is? I know its to do with a world goverment, but little else?
With regard to a one world govermet. I truly believe that this planet is rooten to the core. If it is humanitys fault or the fault of certain humans I dont know.

Since the theme is one government world and related ideas, I'd like to post my two cents worth. I think that a one world government would work, based on a few provisions.

First every ethnic group, religious sect, etc. would have to have their own planet. That way they could set up a system of laws and government (be it socialist, capitalist, democracy, communism, etc.), a constitution, and what type of police force they would want or have need for based on their ethos and whatnot. Now this may sound racist or separatist or whatever, but it could possibly cut down drastically on the wars fought between for example, the different sects of the Moslem faith, simply because of the cost involved of lauching an interstellar war and the factor of landing ground troops. If people wanted to live on a certain planet of a certain faith or ethnticity(sp?) they could. Its the ultimate in freedom of choice. :)

Second, there would be no government that controlled more than one world. That way for example a communist style world wouldn't be beholden to a capitalist body of government that ultimately controlled things beyond the planetary borders. There could be an interplanetary form of currency (to keep trade stable and profitable for everyone), a court system made up of equal numbers of members from each world (to keep things fair), and a whole lotta hope. :)

Third and finally, I know this sounds really farfetched, but maybe someday after we mature enough as a species, it could happen. Of course, alot would rely on FTL transport and the number of worlds out there (neither here nor there, at least not in this forum).

Before something like this happens, a single unified government is not possible on this planet. Humanity is simply too immature and warlike for something like trusting each other and putting aside old predujices and feuds.

Alot of these ideas (some were my own tho) were taken from a series of books by Peter F. Hamilton called "The Reality Dysfunction". I thought they would be somewhat relevant and wanted to share it and my thoughts.

It is the greedy bastards in power who will eventually realize that there is more to be gained from worldwide peace and ensuing commercial renaissance, than from conflict-induced economic barriers and underexploitation of third-world markets.

Even now in U.S. you see the stockbrokers screeching and howling every time we enter an armed conflict. As the market increasingly rules the world, the anti-war economic policy will dominate. This is what will eventually lead to a unified global infrastructure, government and culture.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

A one world government is a dream and dreams do not come true.
It is sheer science fiction to even consider it, somebody here watches too much star trek.
We are what we are and greed will dominate over governments and peace does not make money or bring idolism to any governmental leader.
PEACE SELLS BUT WHOS BUYING.

general

quite the pessimist.
evolution would predict that we get over this greed thing , with the weapons now available our survival depends on it.
the dream is to get rid of all monetary systems but I'm sure we agree that won't happen any time soon.

God,
It is not a case of being a pessimist, more of a realist.
Of course a one world government would be nice, it would deliver world peace and an end to all suffering, but I can not see this happening. For humans it would merely be illogical because of our genetic code of lacking trust and compassion.
Honest people are not voted into power, liars are voted into power that is why no one should really vote.

Man.. that was pessimistic Generalhurrs.. It looks like you never got the toy you wished for when you were a kid ;)

One World government? it could happen. The way I see it tension is building up all over the world ( maybe not in the outlands of Mongolia) If a WW III happens, then in the wake of its end we will see it. People will actually demand it I believe.. If there were none, i would say that the only thing that would make it happen were if there were a planetary threat that could happen, and we'd have to work together to "fix" it.



------------------
"All i say is keep looking".

General

I have to agree with H-kon it could happen , we have to be able to trust each other. I agree that this is not possile presently , but not because we are genetically incapable of honesty. This is a product of society & as society matures our morales and outlooks will change accordingly..... Granted this could take some time.

H-Kon,
I think you have probably watched ID4 a few times too many. If we received a threat from another world we wouldn't stand a chance and I doubt that other species would model themselves on us anyway so in that case we will never be reunited by an outside threat.
I still say I see things realistically as far as world governments go. Also the threat or happening of a third world war, I can't see that ever taking off either.
Oh and one more thing, I tend to block out some of the past as there are mistakes I cannot change so I cannot think off hand what toy I did not get, still, never mind.
PEACE SELLS BUT WHOS BUYING.

NO ONE!!!!!!!!!

PS.
I am assuming planetary threat means invasion here so if I am wrong on that note then please forgive my interpretation of your post.

WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO BUY SOME PEACE.

NO.

THAT FIGURES.

[This message has been edited by generalhurrss (edited July 24, 1999).]

But who would like to buy some war???

In both war and peace, there are winners and losers. My impression is that as time passses the winners in peace are becoming more powerful and pervasive than the commercial warmongers.

Consider, for example, the investors in infrastructure. The Internet is becoming global, and large companies like Lucent, or MCI for example, are laying thousands of miles of fiber-optic cable and communications hubs all over the world. Another example are oil and gas industries, which are increasingly laying multi-country and multi-continent pipelines. Or what about the aero-space industries and their extensive infrastructure investments and meager, while at the same time extremely valuable, international clientele? Do you think any one of them would like to see even a portion of their investment wiped out by war? It used to be that military contractors in U.S. were among the wealthiest and most powerful companies, both economically and politically. Now, any one of them is nothing but a grain of dust on Microsoft's boots.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.