"Ralph Peters' declaration of war on the real cancer within the American body politic, empty-headed Islamophobia that passes off hatred and hysteria for patriotism and devotion to America's ideals. As he notes, these tunes have a very famliar ring to those aware of the discourse of anti-Semites and white supremacists in American history." -Svend White

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/islam_haters__an_enemy_within_opedcolumnists_ralph _peters.htm

Geez, Sam, perhaps you should read that a little more carefully! Ralph Peters is one of my heroes and is almost as warlike and bloodthirsty as me!!!!! ....LOL!

I agree that there was a little blurb that you might find interesting enough to post, but to pull it out of the article is to make it really, really out of context.

If Ralph Peters had his way, he'd do just like me ....he'd reduce Iraq to a smokin' pile of rubble! ...LOL!

Read that article again, Sam, or else you've just pulled things out of context because one or two sentences were slanted toward you lily-livered, liberal, love-all-Muslim attitude and demeanor.

Baron Max

to sam: what a crock of shit. I have never met anyone who hates Islam (other than atheists who hate all religions).

Baron:
Interesting observation since the "blurb" is a critique of the article by Svend White (an American Muslim convert) and is not "pulled out" of the article.

You might avoid displaying your ignorance so obviously.


Cato:
I have met some wannabes on sciforums and I was surprised to see this article in the New York Post (of all things) so I posted it here for discussion.

Baron:
Interesting observation since the "blurb" is a critique of the article by Svend White (an American Muslim convert) and is not "pulled out" of the article.

You might avoid displaying your ignorance so obviously.

What a crock of shit, Sam!! You can do much better at posting your hatred of Americans than that, for christ's sake.

And why aren't you leaping up and down with joy and cheers at the "revelations" of Musharff (?) about us threatening him with bombing? I would think that you'd be posting accusations at America for all you're worth ....yet you seem to ignore it completely? ...and post this bullshit! Hmmm?

Baron Max

to sam: what a crock of shit. I have never met anyone who hates Islam (other than atheists who hate all religions).
I'm an Atheist. I don't hate.

I have "intellectual differences".

And I am no longer of the "Left", for which my contempt is real.

You do the math. ;)

What a crock of shit, Sam!! You can do much better at posting your hatred of Americans than that, for christ's sake.
She doesn't hate all Americans.

If she hates any of us, it's only those most deserving. :D

She doesn't hate all Americans. ;)

If she does, it's only those most deserving. :D

^My favorite American right here! :)

^My favorite American right here! :)
You could have waited for my final edit. http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You hate me, no doubt...

You could have waited for my final edit. http://www.sciforums.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You hate me, no doubt...

Probably should be the other way around.

Since I interrupted your attempts at clarification. ;)

She doesn't hate all Americans. If she hates any of us, it's only those most deserving.

But since she's the deciding authority of the term "deserving", I can only get from her posts that she hates all Americans ...EXCEPT... Muslim Americans.

And yet she enjoys the fruits of the labor of millions of past Americans without giving them a bit of thanks or gratitude for it.

Baron Max

Mr. G:

Do you ever get the feeling that your words go right through the ether that passes for brains in some people? :p

But since she's the deciding authority of the term "deserving", I can only get from her posts that she hates all Americans ...EXCEPT... Muslim Americans.

And yet she enjoys the fruits of the labor of millions of past Americans without giving them a bit of thanks or gratitude for it.

Baron Max
You haven't been reading.

I'm not Muslim, am decidedly a-religious, a neo-con at heart, and she still flirts.

With me.

Why not you?

You're a fellow American.

Not too different from me.

What's happening here?

Mr. G:

Do you ever get the feeling that your words go right through the ether that passes for brains in some people? :p
I'm not that cynical.

You offer your product to your clientele; what they do with it is their thing.

If the product is without defect, it's the client in the spotlight.

I'm not that cynical.

You offer your product to your clientele; what they do with it is their thing.

If the product is without defect, it's the client in the spotlight.

Hmm doesn't a projection like that obstruct your view?

Hmm doesn't a projection like that obstruct your view?
Not when I stand.

Not when I stand.

Still, you do miss some obvious points.

Still, you do miss some obvious points.
G; what else is new?

Secrets within secrets.

G; what else is new?

Secrets within secrets.

Too much imagination. ;)

I'm American.

I dream of the impossible, then make it happen.

I'm American.

I dream of the impossible, then make it happen.

I hope your follow through is as good as your serve. :)

I hope your follow through is as good as your serve. :)
Shhh. You're making the local leftie demographic question their real world-relevent self-esteem.

We have to be much more sensitive to their conditioned inadequacies. ;)

Let's just get a room.

Shhh. You're making the local leftie demographic question their real world-relevent self-esteem.

We have to be much more sensitive to their conditioned inadequacies. ;)

Let's just get a room.

Oh did someone question your tastes? :p

"Ralph Peters' declaration of war on the real cancer within the American body politic, empty-headed Islamophobia that passes off hatred and hysteria for patriotism and devotion to America's ideals. As he notes, these tunes have a very famliar ring to those aware of the discourse of anti-Semites and white supremacists in American history." -Svend White

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/islam_haters__an_enemy_within_opedcolumnists_ralph _peters.htm
maybe we should put you on a leash and let you grind the propaganda mill on the sidewalk.

anyway hows your classes goin'?

maybe we should put you on a leash and let you grind the propaganda mill on the sidewalk.

anyway hows your classes goin'?

I've finished my courses, just research now.

I'm writing a manuscript of the research so far, and getting ready for a conference next month.

I've already written a proposal for my next research which I begin next spring.

Anything else? :D

Oh did someone question your tastes? :p
If they did, and if I cared, the "tastes" wouldn't really be mine, no?

If they did, and if I cared, the "tastes" wouldn't really be mine, no?

Possibly but there might be some sensibilities you might not like to offend.

(what am I saying?) :p

Sensibilities are what they are.

Sensitivities, on the other hand...

Sensibilities are what they are.

Sensitivities, on the other hand...

I'm Victorian.

I'm Victorian.
I'm not.

I'm not.

I already knew that. You drop the "u"'s and use "z"'s instead of "s".

Egad!

So, you're more into being told what to do than you are doing what you want?

So, you're more into being told what to do than you are doing what you want?

Don't tell me I've been deceived in your intellect *sigh*

Your syntax suggests otherwise. :P

Your syntax suggests otherwise. :P

You'd be wise to remember that.

Interesting article, Sam. What did you think about this part:
ISLAMIST fanatics attacked us and yearn to destroy us. The Muslim civilization of the Middle East has failed comprehensively and will continue to generate violence. The only way to deal with faith-poisoned terrorists is to kill them.

And the world's only hope for long-term peace is for moderate Muslims - by far the majority around the globe - to recapture their own faith.
I would agree that the vast majority of American born Muslims are rational, reasonable people and no threat to the nation. The same can not be said for Muslims in the rest of the world. European Muslims seem, at times, more dangerous than middle eastern Muslims. Which brings up a question, where are you from? I believe you are studying in the US. But where are you from originally?

Also, I heartily agree with the statement that moderate Muslims must take control of their religion and root out the evil from their midst. This must be done before the jihadists commit some unforgiveable atrocity that causes this to become a real holy war. One with both sides fighting to the death, Christianity v/s Islam. Or maybe Christianity, Hindu's, atheists et al v/s Islam.

Interesting article, Sam. What did you think about this part:

I would agree that the vast majority of American born Muslims are rational, reasonable people and no threat to the nation. The same can not be said for Muslims in the rest of the world. European Muslims seem, at times, more dangerous than middle eastern Muslims. Which brings up a question, where are you from? I believe you are studying in the US. But where are you from originally?

Also, I heartily agree with the statement that moderate Muslims must take control of their religion and root out the evil from their midst. This must be done before the jihadists commit some unforgiveable atrocity that causes this to become a real holy war. One with both sides fighting to the death, Christianity v/s Islam. Or maybe Christianity, Hindu's, atheists et al v/s Islam.

I'm from India. And I think terrorists should be treated as criminals rather than political targets.

That is the only way to get them.

I'm from India. And I think terrorists should be treated as criminals rather than political targets.

That is the only way to get them.
I'm sorry, but our justice system in the US could not even convict OJ! Never has a criminal had so much evidence against him, and he walked. You want us to fight terrorism with that kind of system? We'd be signing our own death warrents. Terrorists must be killed, not arrested.

They fight without honor. Without rules. We should afford them no honor, no respect. They should be hunted down like the vermin they are and wiped from the face of the earth.

The moderate Muslims should be our greatest allies in this. It is they who suffer the most at the hands of the Islamofascists. As President Bush said, "You're either with us, or against us."

They fight without honor. Without rules. We should afford them no honor, no respect. They should be hunted down like the vermin they are and wiped from the face of the earth.
When you look back in history, you constantly see people describe their enemies this way, no matter who they are. I'm sure the terrorists are saying the same about you.

PS "With us or against us" is blind stupidity.

I'm sorry, but our justice system in the US could not even convict OJ! Never has a criminal had so much evidence against him, and he walked. You want us to fight terrorism with that kind of system? We'd be signing our own death warrents. Terrorists must be killed, not arrested.

They fight without honor. Without rules. We should afford them no honor, no respect. They should be hunted down like the vermin they are and wiped from the face of the earth.

The moderate Muslims should be our greatest allies in this. It is they who suffer the most at the hands of the Islamofascists. As President Bush said, "You're either with us, or against us."

I would rather have a good justice system and a sense of fair play than vigilantism.

Otherwise the terrorists have already won.

The moderate Muslims should be our greatest allies in this. It is they who suffer the most at the hands of the Islamofascists.

That's the thing I just don't get?! And worse, it seems to be the other way around ....the moderate Muslims seem to actually be fighting AGAINST us at every turn?! They support the terrorists by making flimsy excuses, then turn against us by even supporting Muslims killing Muslims?! Amazing.

With that obvious support by the moderate Muslims, that tendency to NOT condemn terrorist acts, leaves moderate Americans to wonder why they should NOT hate all Muslims!

Baron Max

I would rather have a good justice system and a sense of fair play than vigilantism.

Justice? What's that, Sam? Is it "good justice" according to Al Queda? Or "good justice" according to Sudanese against the Darfurians? Or is it "good justice" according to......?

Otherwise the terrorists have already won.

Won what, Sam? What are they fighting for? And what are they going to get when they "win"? And what are they going to do when they "win"?

The "win/lose" is obvious for one perspective ....it ain't so fuckin' obvious from the other. Tell me, Sam, you're a supporter of terrorism, so you must have some good ideas of the terrorists' motives and agendas.

Baron Max

That's the thing I just don't get?! And worse, it seems to be the other way around ....the moderate Muslims seem to actually be fighting AGAINST us at every turn?! They support the terrorists by making flimsy excuses, then turn against us by even supporting Muslims killing Muslims?! Amazing.

With that obvious support by the moderate Muslims, that tendency to NOT condemn terrorist acts, leaves moderate Americans to wonder why they should NOT hate all Muslims!

Baron Max
My dear Baron,

Just because you say it does it mean its true...

This is abosulte crap...

Moderate muslims would dispise the extremist more than than non muslims.....

These xtremist sects acutally give us muslims all a bad name.

I fear for my childrens future, cos they could gte blown up in london on atrain, they could get bullied at school by non muslims... the moderate muslims have it worst.... thats why i am soo aginst all injustices as it is evil feeding evil.

not just western injustices and hypocrycy but islaimic injustices and hypocricy too.

pls read my posts.... i am sure most muslism like me feel the same/

Moderate muslims would dispise the extremist more than than non muslims.....

then why don't we hear from them to condemn the terrorism in great numbers and loud voices?

...i am sure most muslism like me feel the same/

Apparently not, Zak. If they did, then we'd hear about it much more often than we do. How can you explain that silence?

Baron Max

Ralph Peters, a Christian, appears to be simply promoting freedom of religion, and is transposing that agenda on Islam, the latest 'buzz' religion currently catching the medias attention.

He conveniently sidesteps the real issues with religion, most likely due to his being Christian, and is instead merely whining about religious persecution.

The article is specious at best.

then why don't we hear from them to condemn the terrorism in great numbers and loud voices?



Apparently not, Zak. If they did, then we'd hear about it much more often than we do. How can you explain that silence?

Baron Max
Baron

Good evening......

The media picks whatg it wants too and what will sell news papers... Just cos it is not in the papers does not mean its not happening.

How much coverage of the kiLLINGS in congo do we get on a dialy basis baron??? Well i can tell you jack shit, or perhaps on article every 2 weeks in 1 out of 5 daily news papers...

I would rather have a good justice system and a sense of fair play than vigilantism.

Otherwise the terrorists have already won.

So then why dont you complain about the Indian justice system?

So then why dont you complain about the Indian justice system?

What makes you think I dont?

:p

You dont here Sam, never mention the poor in India who are victimized by a corrupt system of favoritism or the injustices and shamefull acts of conformity and surrender by the sword.

On American Islam Haters :rolleyes:

You dont here Sam, never mention the poor in India who are victimized by a corrupt system of favoritism or the injustices and shamefull acts of conformity and surrender by the sword.

You chose to title your post On American Islam Haters

Maybe because the vagaries of the Indian justice system affect only Indians?

How many were affected by the suicide bombings in India?

Yet, the US foreign policy affects us.

They arm Pakistan. That affects us.

They train militants in Afghanistan who form the Taliban and Mujahideen.

These militants enter India, they kidnap adolescent Muslim boys and enroll them in terrorist training camps. That affects us.

The war in Afghanistan creates refugees and terrorists who come to India.

We have train bombings in Bombay where I live. That affects me.

What part of the Indian justice system affects you?

edit: the poor are victimised everywhere.
But in India, we have a reservation system of 15-40% and India is a young democracy only 60 something years. And we have a better record than the US.

You dont here Sam, never mention the poor in India who are victimized by a corrupt system of favoritism or the injustices and shamefull acts of conformity and surrender by the sword.

Well, geez, John, even if Sam did mention the poor in India, she'd just blame America, Americans and President Bush for the problems!!! So what have you gained? ....LOL!

Baron Max

Maybe because the vagaries of the Indian justice system affect only Indians?

How many were affected by the suicide bombings in India?

Yet, the US foreign policy affects us.

They arm Pakistan. That affects us.

They train militants in Afghanistan who form the Taliban and Mujahideen.

These militants enter India, they kidnap adolescent Muslim boys and enroll them in terrorist training camps. That affects us.

The war in Afghanistan creates refugees and terrorists who come to India.

We have train bombings in Bombay where I live. That affects me.

What part of the Indian justice system affects you?

Sam, the problems in India i am referring to have been in place hundreds of years, and you know that.

How else to support an ELITE class with broadband access?

We have train bombings in Bombay where I live. That affects me.

Now your insulting our intelligence. :D

Sam, the problems in India i am referring to have been in place hundreds of years, and you know that.

How else to support a ruling class with broadband access?

You're talking out of your ass.

We're making tremendous progress in all spheres.

There are backward areas but with our demographics they are astonishingly low.

We have 800 languages, all the words racial goups and all the worlds religions living together.

India has made impressive progress over the 1990s:

* Economic growth averaged 6 percent a year, led by strong advances in the services sector. The IT industry has proven particularly dynamic and is now of global renown — and its success proves that India is perfectly capable of competing and succeeding at the top international levels.


* Poverty has fallen significantly, from 55 percent of the population in 1974 to an estimated 26 percent in 2000. During the nineties, the poverty rate is estimated to have fallen from 34 percent to 26 percent, clearly establishing the link between faster growth and poverty reduction. Measures of income inequality also declined during this period. As you know, there was a great deal of controversy over what actually happened to poverty during the last decade — but the fact of a major decline in poverty is now well established.


* Other social indicators have shown similar improvements. Over the last two decades or so: life expectancy has increased from 55 to 63 years; the infant mortality rate has dropped from 108 to 70 per thousand live births; and literacy has risen from 45 to 68 percent for men and from 29 to 45 percent for women.


* The external position has also strengthened: since the 1991 balance of payments crisis, official reserves have risen steadily and now stand in excess of six months of goods and services imports. As capital account developments play an increasingly important role, more attention is being paid to another indicator of reserve adequacy — the ratio of reserves to short-term debt. A ratio of one is regarded as reasonable. In India, reserves are more than four times the level of short-term external debt, an extremely safe level. External debt has declined to around 22 percent of GDP, and the current account deficit has been held to less than 1 percent of GDP in recent years.

Here is a fairly recent report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5116596.stm

* Economic growth averaged 6 percent a year, led by strong advances in the services sector. The IT industry has proven particularly dynamic and is now of global renown — and its success proves that India is perfectly capable of competing and succeeding at the top international levels.

Ha Ha Ha, and how much of this was the U.S part of. I dont have the #'s but the U.S is putting millions to work in India. NOT slave labor so dont even try it, these jobs pay good.

You're talking out of your ass.

See the respmnse when someone comments truthfully on your beloved India :)

Now your insulting our intelligence. :D

The bomb attacks in Mumbai came hours after a series of grenade attacks in Srinagar, the largest city in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, also the state conveniently close to Pakistan.

Well, geez, John, even if Sam did mention the poor in India, she'd just blame America,....

Baron Max

Obviously.

The bomb attacks in Mumbai came hours after a series of grenade attacks in Srinagar, the largest city in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, also the state conveniently close to Pakistan.


That's one out of how many? Look if you can't see what the real problem it's never going to be fixed....But you cant so why bother? I look at things subjectively, and I am not a joiner...so i have an advantage.

Amazing, Sam, that you can't see the enormous problems in India?! Either that or turn a blind eye to it and pretend that its just not there. Amazing!

But then again, my guess is that you live in a large mansion with servants, too, huh? :)

Baron Max

But then again, my guess is that you live in a large mansion with servants, too, huh? :)

Baron Max

Obviously :)

Amazing, Sam, that you can't see the enormous problems in India?! Either that or turn a blind eye to it and pretend that its just not there. Amazing!

But then again, my guess is that you live in a large mansion with servants, too, huh? :)

Baron Max

See never form impressions like that.

No servants, no mansions. Middle class family. My grandparents were from villages and my mom was very poor, lost her dad in childhood and was working from age 12 to support her family.

My dad brought up and looked after 8 of his siblings, so not much left over for us.

Only thing they gave us was an education. And lots of love. And the ability to think beyond our own narrow interests.

Surprisingly, that was more than enough.

But in India, we have a reservation system of 15-40% and India is a young democracy only 60 something years. And we have a better record than the US.
I wouldn't brag about that. That's a grave injustice in and of itself. If the caste system is wrong, it's wrong. All your reservation system does is reshuffle the pecking order. It still allocates benefits based on caste.

I wouldn't brag about that. That's a grave injustice in and of itself. If the caste system is wrong, it's wrong. All your reservation system does is reshuffle the pecking order. It still allocates benefits based on caste.

Perhaps you're right. But its important to remove the social inequality before we can move forward. The expansion of the middle class and the reduction in poverty, plus the reduction in illiteracy, are all signs that it is working. This is also reflected in our per capita income and quarterly growth.

The expansion of the middle class and the reduction in poverty, plus the reduction in illiteracy, are all signs that it is working. This is also reflected in our per capita income and quarterly growth.
Those are all good things, even great things. But when do you think you will be ready to get rid of the affirmative action programs? I'll tell you when, never. The longer they exist, the more entrenched these programs become. Any good they've done will ultimately be overwhelmed by the long term injustices they create. These kind of programs, if they are to be used at all, should have a firm sunset provision requiring supermajorities to renew.

Those are all good things, even great things. But when do you think you will be ready to get rid of the affirmative action programs? I'll tell you when, never. The longer they exist, the more entrenched these programs become. Any good they've done will ultimately be overwhelmed by the long term injustices they create. These kind of programs, if they are to be used at all, should have a firm sunset provision requiring supermajorities to renew.

They've already been weaned from primary schools because the central government stepped in to finance the education and made it free.

Right now the major issues in reservation are two: higher education and government jobs.

We are trying to solve this in various ways.

Higher education needs to be revamped in India, since it is still relatively expensive and only affordable by some. The gaps left are filled by diploma courses and vocational courses.

But a lot of Indians are very ambitious for their children and fathers spend entire lives working in the ME or Europe as labourers so their children can afford and get a good education. The government is very good about providing quick service for such non-Residents and no taxes are charged to them so they can be encouraged to work abroad.

Another way is by opening of schools by private philanthropists. Those who can afford these "international" schools are able to access them, freeing up seats for other children in regular schools.

Private individuals are now funding grants in higher education and there is talk of opening up the private sector for employment of reserved classes, which will open up the market for them substantially. The companies participating in such programs will receive business incentives from the government and we hope this will help to expand the industries and provide employment.

We have great economists and we rehash the whole thing every year, so we should be seeing changes soon.

Americans hate all that is unfamiliar. We hate foreigners, we hate non-Christians and their religions, many of us hate Jews as well. We hate new ideas and different approaches to political problems. We hate change and we hate political correctness, we LOVE our epithets, we hate protesters and anyone opposed to war. So why wouldn't we hate Islam and all of it's followers?? The US stopped being a progressive country in the late 60's. We've sunk lower ever since.

Americans hate all that is unfamiliar. We hate foreigners, we hate non-Christians and their religions, many of us hate Jews as well. We hate new ideas and different approaches to political problems. We hate change and we hate political correctness, we LOVE our epithets, we hate protesters and anyone opposed to war. So why wouldn't we hate Islam and all of it's followers?? The US stopped being a progressive country in the late 60's. We've sunk lower ever since.
What a bunch of crap.

You don't speak for me. My estimation of America bears no resemblence to your's.

So, convince me your take on America should be mine.

Time to perform.

What a bunch of crap.

You don't speak for me. My estimation of America bears no resemblence to your's.

So, convince me your take on America should be mine.

Time to perform.I believe every word I said. Most of the world does too I suspect. Eat it or ignore it. My opinion is crap to you and your opinion is crap to me. Adapt.

I believe every word I said.
Believing is easy. You're of the Faith.

So, educate me. Convince me why your belief is worthy of subscription.

If you can't convert me, your world view isn't universal, is it?

That's the problem.

All too many folks who believe they advocate for True Democracy --or the True Whatever-- really are only searching for True Universal Conformity: The Right to Deny Others the Right to be Wrong.

Not very Democratic. ;)

Americans hate all that is unfamiliar.
this can be said of almost anybody antwhere.
We hate foreigners,
not true, seeing as 99% of us are foreigners or decendents of foreigners.
we hate non-Christians and their religions,
again not true. every american i am aware of believes in religious freedom.
many of us hate Jews as well.
you just don't give up do you.
We hate new ideas and different approaches to political problems.
like the first part this can be said of almost anybody in any culture.
We hate change
doesn't everybody?
and we hate political correctness,
first thing you said i agree with.
we LOVE our epithets,
you struck out long ago.
we hate protesters and anyone opposed to war.
some do, some don't.
So why wouldn't we hate Islam and all of it's followers??
i believe it's terrorism we're fighting, not islam.
The US stopped being a progressive country in the late 60's. We've sunk lower ever since.
i have only agreed with one thing in this post of yours and this isn't it.