Ok so some people dont believe in God..........

THATS YOUR RIGHT.....BUT WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???...I DONT ARGUE THE BIBLE BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT. I DO NOT PUT ANY ONE DOWN FOR ANYTHING THAT THEY DO SIMPLY BECAUSE IM NOT PERFECT AND IVE DONE ALOT OF WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS MAYBE EVEN
MORE....WHICH I GUESS IS WHY I BELIEVE IN HIM,CAUSE I KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PERSON I WAS BEFORE I ACCEPTED HIM AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I AM NOW.....AND THE FACT THAT WHEN I DO WRONG I CAN SEE AND FEEL THE WRONG I DO THEREFORE ALLOWING ME TO ASK HIM FOR FORGIVENESS.....THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY COME DOWN TO ONE VERSE AS A SUMMATION.....JOHN 3:16............................YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH,FAMOUS,OR JUST HAVE EVERYTHING THAT THIS
WORLD CAN OFFER BUT DEEP INSIDE THEY ARE MISERABLE,LONELY,SCARED AND THEIR LIVES ARE EMPTY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE CHRIST IN THEIR HEARTS ,CAUSE HE IS WHAT MAKES US COMPLETE.....WE NEED ONLY TO ACCEPT THE GIFT HE OFFERS US THRU SALVATION....WHICH CAN BE FOUND BY ASKING,SIMPLY ASKING.FROM THERE IT IS IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW UP BY READING HIS WORD WHICH GUIDES US...ITS THAT SIMPLE......FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS FICTION,THATS OK THATS
YOUR OPINION, BUT MAYBE SOMEONE OUT THERE WOULD LIKE TO GIVE JESUS A TRY IF SO,READ JOHN 3: 16 AND JUST THINK ON WHAT IT OFFERS.....MY HOPE IS THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP SOMEONE....THNX

Mmmkay.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Aww come on, Agent51, aren't you going to threaten us with fire and brimstone? I thought you'd cite John 3:36..... That's more fun. :D

Seriously, I don't feel that you are weak minded. Perhaps some people turn to religion out of weakness, but many do not. However, I do feel that belief is irrational, and that blind faith is dangerous.

Agent, I would throw your argument right back at ya.

I would never condemn anyone for any religious belief that they have. If I object it's when those 'believers' shove their philosphies at me like I don't have any better ideas and I need to be 'saved'..
My personal tak is that people 'find' jesus as a catalyst to elaborate between basic right and wrong, which is what I feel you are describing in your post about your own experience.

Some of the bibles teachings are good common sense, maybe even the basis for some aspects of common sense however other teachings either contradict themselves or are just plain dumb.

If you find 'enlightenment' the first thing you want to do is share it and that's fine. If you find those who refuse to share then just accept and shut the fuck up. Move on. Get another agenda or find another person willing to listen.

It's those religious people who refuse to listen to those of us who refuse to listen who are a pain in the arse.

Enjoy your faith in your higher power and leaved me to enjoy mine.
Know what I mean

Agent51,

I have a simple question for you - John 3:16 first -

…. that he gave his only begotten Son… When you give something that you value very highly to help someone else it can be very emotional. The emotion comes from the belief that you will never see that item again. John 3:16 is deliberately playing on your emotions, and is a typical ploy when targeting new recruits to Christianity.

My question is – what did God give up? Jesus is a God and is hence immortal – he cannot die and God would know this since they are both omniscient (perfect knowledge of all events past, present and future). In effect God gave nothing.

John 3:16 only has value if God gave up someone he loved in the same way that you might give up your child if you had one. But Christianity claims that Jesus lives.

So John 3:16 is meaningless.

Cris

Agent51,

BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT.If you really do have evidence for the existence of a god then please do present it. People have been trying for thousands of years and no one has managed it yet.

For those that insist on believing in a god they must rest their beliefs not on evidence, for which there is none, but on faith.

But faith is nothing special, despite what religious teachers might say. Faith is nothing more than believing something where there is no evidence.

And no, the matter does not come down to whether you believe or not. For those that believe truth is based on real evidence and proofs then belief is not possible without such evidence. IOW people who don’t believe do so because there is no proof.

People who do believe have no evidential basis for their beliefs, they believe without reason, or outside of reason, and that is known as irrationality, or illogical.

So –

WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS??? Specifically because it can be shown you are unable to think logically, as I have explained above.

Cris

"BUT WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???"

1) I believe in freedom of speech. So I'll say whatever the fuck I want, thank you very much.

2) Where did I say this? Or any of us? I thought you'd only been here like 6 hours?

3) Many people who believe in religion, regardless of whether or not it's true, believe solely because it makes them feel better. Some people believe life is better with the promise of an afterlife and some sort of meaning to life. This need for a higher being is a weakness. And note, I did not say all religious people. Look at Nelson for a while. When we argue that love is just an emotion he argues back that love must be something much more mystical. Why? Because he feels better if it is. Regardless of whether or not he is right, he believes what he does because he wants to. This is a weakness.


"I DONT ARGUE THE BIBLE BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT"

Please, if you have said evidence, present it. You can bet I will debate it, but if it's actually proof of God I will likely name you the greatest genius on earth. That is, if you really are only 13...


"WHICH I GUESS IS WHY I BELIEVE IN HIM,CAUSE I KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PERSON I WAS BEFORE I ACCEPTED HIM AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I AM NOW"

That's right. Religion changes people. Some people need religion to be a good human being. Therefore, religion is a crutch.

Secondly, you're 13, you have no idea just how little you have experienced life. I'm 16 and I would say the same about myself.


"YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH,FAMOUS,OR JUST HAVE EVERYTHING THAT THIS
WORLD CAN OFFER BUT DEEP INSIDE THEY ARE MISERABLE,LONELY,SCARED AND THEIR LIVES ARE EMPTY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE CHRIST IN THEIR HEARTS"

Do you know these people? Who is it? I'm a little curios so could ya' tell me who they are? I'd also like to know how you got in contact with them? Is it Alec Baldwin? It's Alec Baldwin, isn't it?
Alright enough jokes.

How about me? I love life. I'm very content with life. At one point, I was quite suicidal. It wasn't Christ though that got me out of that funk. It was myself. Right now I am neither miserable, lonely or scared or empty. In fact, I'm happy, friend-filled, adventerous and quite full. And all because of me and my friends, not Christ.


"CAUSE HE IS WHAT MAKES US COMPLETE"

Thank you. I'm glad you can tell me what completes me. I'm glad you know me that well. Jackass.

He is what makes YOU complete.

To be perfectly honest, I'd say masturbation is what makes me complete. :D


"NEED ONLY TO ACCEPT THE GIFT HE OFFERS US THRU SALVATION"

So what you're saying is that there's some higher being that cannnot be disproved that offers me eternal happiness in return for nothin? Wow. And that doesn't sound like a scam? haha.


"MY HOPE IS THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP SOMEONE"

Ah, the hyporcrit in you flourishes, young one. You act as if it is wrong for an atheist to call down a xtian, yet you come back and say that all of us need help and are "miserable, lonely, scared and empty" and you are hte one to help us.

Could you please stop SHOUTING? My head hurts.

Hello, and welcome! I don't know if you've posted here before, but this is the first time I've seen you here, so: Greetings!

Now, on to your post...

Ok so some people dont believe in God..........
THATS YOUR RIGHT.....BUT WHY DO PEOPLE PUT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO DO AND ACT LIKE WE ARE WEAK MINDED FOR OUR BELIEFS???...I DONT ARGUE THE BIBLE BUT I COULD PRESENT MANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE FOR WHAT I BELIEVE, IF I CHOSE TO, BUT IN THE END YOU EITHER BELIEVE OR YOU DO NOT.


Ok, firstly- Cap's button is not your friend.

Secondly- I don't put down anyone who has faith. I understand that some people have their reasons for having a belief in a diety, and I don't mind that. You can believe in whatever God(dess) you want, I don't mind.

The only time I do mind is when you denounce me for disagreeing with you.

I don't think anyone is "weak-minded"- accept those who use demean other people to make themselves feel better or justified. If your going to tell me I'm wrong, prove me wrong- with what we're debating, and not how you feel I'm inferior to you.

Thirdly, if you have evidence of the bible's truth, then please...do prove us wrong.

MORE....WHICH I GUESS IS WHY I BELIEVE IN HIM,CAUSE I KNOW WHAT TYPE OF PERSON I WAS BEFORE I ACCEPTED HIM AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I AM NOW.....AND THE FACT THAT WHEN I DO WRONG I CAN SEE AND FEEL THE WRONG I DO THEREFORE ALLOWING ME TO ASK HIM FOR FORGIVENESS.....THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANITY COME DOWN TO ONE VERSE AS A SUMMATION.....JOHN 3:16............................

Ok, I'm getting the feeling you implying that people who do not believe in God are incapable of judging themselves morally. I assure you, this is not the case.

Also, I would have to echo Cris here- God was the one who punished us, so to forgive us(him?) he sacrifice his son(whatever that is) for a seemingly meaningless purpose. The sacrifice was un-needed, and shouldn't have even been there to begin with, because God should have forgiven us at the beginning. ( Or had a abortion, and start over.) And this time, acually destory Satan, so God can't let him ruin us again!

YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH,FAMOUS,OR JUST HAVE EVERYTHING THAT THIS WORLD CAN OFFER BUT DEEP INSIDE THEY ARE MISERABLE,LONELY,SCARED AND THEIR LIVES ARE EMPTY AND ITS ALL BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE CHRIST IN THEIR HEARTS ,CAUSE HE IS WHAT MAKES US COMPLETE.....WE NEED ONLY TO ACCEPT THE GIFT HE OFFERS US THRU SALVATION....WHICH CAN BE FOUND BY ASKING,SIMPLY ASKING.

Once again, the prominant position that athiests are bitter, unhappy, cold people. Not only is this bigotry, but flat out ignorance. Do you know me personnally? Do you know what I think and feel? I don't think you do, so I submit that it's hauty and pretentious to assume you do.

Secondly, I've explored the Christian concept, I've read the bible, and I've considered everything I could. I've found Christianity to be inconsistant, harmful, and inadequate.

Inconsistant because the Bible has been shown to be of very questionable reliablity by historical scholars.

Harmful because the God of the Bible is a tyrant, unforgiving, merciless dictator who teaches you that your worth nothing, your life is worth nothing, and that you should spend your entire existance hanging on his goodwill ( If I could dare use such a statement in describing the Chrisitian god ).

And inadequate...because faith has yet to work. Ever since I discovered atheisism, I've never felt better in my life. I don't have anymore doubts, because the more and more I learn, and experiment.. I find that reason always wins.

FROM THERE IT IS IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW UP BY READING HIS WORD WHICH GUIDES US...ITS THAT SIMPLE......FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS FICTION,THATS OK THATS YOUR OPINION, BUT MAYBE SOMEONE OUT THERE WOULD LIKE TO GIVE JESUS A TRY IF SO,READ JOHN 3: 16 AND JUST THINK ON WHAT IT OFFERS.....MY HOPE IS THAT MAYBE IT WOULD HELP SOMEONE....THNX


Indeed. But I would argue that the same said person should be offered the reasons and ideas behind atheisism. ( More specifically, Humanism ). Of course, how many Christians will agree that that idea, eh? ;)

Until next time...

Tyler's right you can say whatever you want and so can we. I respect people's opinions but frankly I think your doing exactly what your codemning them for ..... pushing values upon people.

This forum can be used to debate gods existance, note the word debate. At first I thought people with a belief in God were being trashed too much also, but I realized its a DEBATE and that more people that don't believe in God's existance frequent this site. So if you don't want to get "picked on" then fight back, but really there the only ones with anything near (though I still think evidence is hard to come by, if not there) a logical argument. So you might have a hard time.

-Sorry to be so abrupt, but when people quote scriptures I come out swingin'.

What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.

Aragorn,

I would feel compelled to agree with you, except it the bible itself that many christians claim it the absolute truth. We quote from it, therefore ( atleast I do ) to disprove many of their lines of reasoning.

Aragorn,

Welcome to sciforums.

What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.Because something is old that doesn’t necessarily negate its value or relevancy. There are many existing Greek texts that predate the bible that include enormous wisdom. For example the mathematics pioneered by Pythagoras from around 500BCE.

Also what does it matter how many authors were involved? Again that gives no indication of lack of relevancy.

The relevancy of something can only be judged on its actual contents and whether such contents are of any practical value or represent any type of truth or knowledge.

The bible was written by hundreds of authors, and much of those writings were heavily edited to create a story that suited the political/religious rulers of the times.

There is some wisdom in the bible but it’s claims for the supernatural remain baseless and essentially useless in any practical manner.

But for atheists it is probably one of the best books for showing the irrelevance, inconsistent, and contradictory nature of Christianity.

Cris

Originally posted by Aragorn
What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.

Is the bible true?

1. The Jewish people would be scattered worldwide; yet Israel would become a nation again-ref Isa 66:8; Mic 5:3. Prophecy fulfilled. This happened exactly as predicted on May 14, 1948. That’s 1 out of 1.
Note: Israel was destroyed in approximately 721 B.C. and Judah about 135 years later. For the last 2500 years, approximately fourteen different peoples have possessed the land of Israel. Nevertheless, the Bible showed that the day would come when the nation of Israel would be reborn.
The rebirth of Israel was a key sign, indicating we had entered a time period called the latter days. It was the beginning of a countdown leading to the Tribulation and culminating with the Battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus immediately after. Along with the fulfillment of this crucial event are over 360 prophecies that would all come together, so we might recognize that the Tribulation is very close at hand. Twenty nine of them are listed here.
Yet the Bible foretells that most people would not believe these things, despite the overwhelming evidence of the fulfillment of the signs from God’s Word and the incredible rebirth of Israel happening exactly as predicted. As people refused to believe the flood was coming in Noah’s time, so people today willingly choose to disregard the signs of the times.

2. Israel shall be brought forth in one day, at once-ref Isa 66:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 2 out of 2.
Note: On Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the U.N. approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. On the morning of May 14, 1948 (the last day of the British mandate), a meeting of the People’s Council took place in Israel to decide on the name of the state and to finalize the declaration. At exactly 4pm, the proclamation ceremony began at the Tel Aviv museum. The 979 Hebrew words of the Scroll of Independence were read. All stood, and the scroll was adopted. The notorious White Paper, issued by the British in 1930 restricting Jewish immigration, was declared null and void. Members of the People’s Council signed the proclamation. David Ben-Gurion rapped his gavel, declaring, “The State of Israel is established. This meeting is ended.” Israel was brought forth as a nation in one day, at once. It happened exactly as predicted. At midnight, the British soldiers and high commissioner would leave. President Truman was swift in announcing U.S. recognition of Israel. The following morning, on May 15, Israel was under armed attack by the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis.

3. The rebirth of Israel would happen after many days. It would occur a long time in the future after the prophecy was made and at the time the bible calls the latter days-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 3 out of 3.
Note: It is estimated that this prophecy was made around 580 B.C. Approximately 2500 years later, in 1948, this prophecy was fulfilled.

4. Israel would be brought forth (or reborn) “out of the nations.”-Ezek 38:8. Prophecy fulfilled-May 14, 1948. That’s 4 out of 4.
Note: As previously stated, on Nov. 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the “United Nations” approved a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This prophecy was perfectly fulfilled. Consider, for centuries the land of Israel had been occupied by many nations. Israel was “brought forth out of the nations”—the children of Israel from many nations were returning to their ancient homeland.

5. Israel must regain the city of Jerusalem-Joel 2:32; Isa 28:14; Ezek 22:19. This happened just as predicted in 1967. That’s 5 out of 5.
Note: The Bible gives us two methods so we would know we are in the last generation. One is by Israel’s rebirth. The other, by a precise line of events that would all come together at one time. Israel was reborn on May 14th, 1948. The Bible indicates that from Israel’s rebirth a generation would not pass till all be fulfilled. A Jewish generation is figured from the age of 20 to 60 (1968). We are not setting any date, but it seems clear that we are living in that generation now.

6. The Christian church at the time of the end would be lukewarm, neither cold nor hot for Jesus. Prophecy fulfilled. That’s 6 out of 6.
Note: God will spew them out. Many church leaders and people that call themselves a Christian and are sure they are saved will not be going to heaven. The Bible tells us—you have acquired wealth, but your true condition is wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked and you don’t know it-Rev 3:14-22. This is today’s church. Most churches preach very little Scripture, but lots of worldly stories. Many sing a great deal, but put very little emphasis on repentance, obeying, serving, and fearing God, the fruits of the Spirit, Bible prophecy, water baptism by immersion, and studying your Bible faithfully every day. Many are only entertainment centers that teach what their members want to hear. People will not endure sound doctrine-2 Tim 4:3. They turn away from the truth-2 Tim 4:4. Many church members are so lukewarm or dead, they don’t even bring their Bibles with them to the house of God. Many ministers think this is the best church age ever, yet the Bible clearly shows it is the worst and most deceived.

7. The Bible gives us over 50 descriptions about the people at the time of the end. Here are some:
A.

Some would depart from the faith and go into devil worship-1 Tim 4:1. This is perfect. Reportedly in Great Britain alone, there are about 35,000 professing witches.
B. People would have no conscience-1 Tim 4:1,2.
C. People would mock about the last days and not believe-2 Pe 3:3; Jude 18.
D. People would become lovers of themselves-2 Tim 3:1,2. Remember the TV commercials—“I do it for me”?
E. People would be disobeying their parents-2 Tim 3:1,2.
F. People would be grateful for nothing-2 Tim 3:1,2.
G. Homosexuality would increase-Lk 17:28,30; ref Gen 19:5; Ro 1:24,26,27.
H. People would be without self-control in sex-2 Tim 3:1,2,6; Rev 9:21, Lk 17:28,30; Jude 7. Is this not the great sex generation?
I. People would be untrustworthy, friends would betray friends-2 Tim 3:1-3.
J.


People would love pleasures more than God-2 Tim 3:1,2,4. This is true. Shall we go on a picnic, watch football, or sleep. Church?—we can go another time. Our American motto “In God we trust” has become a joke. Remember, these were all predicted centuries ago as part of the signs that we are at the time of the end.
K.



People would be taking drugs-Rev 9:21. The Greek word for sorceries, in Rev 9:21, means pharmaceuticals or drugs. God’s Word is 100% right on every one. That’s 7 out of 7. How could you have any doubts at this point?
Note: Fifty years ago, many people never locked their doors at night. People could leave their keys in their car. Merchants could leave their merchandise on the sidewalk without guards, and there was no profanity on television, radio, or in the movies. One of the biggest problems in public school was gum chewing. Those days are long gone.


8. There would be weapons that could destroy the world-Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12. This prophecy is true. That’s 8 out of 8.
Note: When in our history would anyone have ever thought this possible? It is estimated that the combined nuclear arsenals of the USA and Russia (as of the year 2000) could kill every living thing on earth 6 times over.

9. There would be an increase in earthquakes-Mt 24:2,3,7; Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is correct. That’s 9 out of 9.
Note: One might think as the earth settled over a period of time that earthquakes would decrease like ripples in the water. Yet the Bible indicates the opposite is true. In this last generation, research from the U.S. Geological Survey, National Earthquake Information Center reveals that major earthquakes of a magnitude of 6.0 or higher have remained relatively constant during this century. However, the total number of earthquakes in recent years appear to be rising. For example, it was reported that in 1986, the total number of earthquakes was 12,718. In l990, it was 16,612. In 1994, it was 19,371. This will culminate during the Battle of Armageddon, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. At that time, there will be an earthquake that will shake the world. The cities of the nations will fall. Every island will flee away.

10. At the time of the end, there would be famines in various places. Food shortages would still exist in some places-Mt 24:3,4,7; ref Mk 13:8; Lk 21:11. This prophecy is accurate. That’s 10 out of 10.
Note: In this last generation, many are starving in the world. Poverty and crop failure, due to severe weather, drought, or insect infestation, are often a factor. Many people are born, live, and die on the streets, in alleyways, or railroad stations in some countries of the world. Multitudes live in mud houses with grass or palm branches for a roof or have no place to live at all. Billions have no electricity. In some nations, good drinking water is almost nonexistent. Senseless wars have left millions of people with no place to go. Refugee camps exist in many places where people live under conditions that are almost indescribable. They are hungry.
One such person was asked, as I recall, “What would it take for you to consider yourself rich?” His reply was, “I would consider myself rich, if I could have a roof over my head that did not leak, and if I could know what it is like to go to bed at night with a full stomach.”
It has been estimated that 60,000,000 people a year die from starvation around the world. This prophecy is accurate.

11. The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10. This prophecy is exact. That’s 11 out of 11.
Note: In this last generation, to our knowledge, the Gospel is being published (or is about to be published) in the primary language of every nation of the world or “among all nations.” Yet when this prophecy was made, the possibility of such a thing would have seemed impossible. There was no printing press or any means to do such a thing. In addition to this, the Gospel should be available by short-wave radio to listeners anywhere in the world. We have just reached the point that seemed impossible—11 perfect predictions—yet with God nothing is impossible.

12. In the latter days when Israel was once again a nation, there would be a great military power to the extreme north of Israel in the land of Magog (which is modern-day Russia)-Ezek 38:2-4,8,15,16. Incredible. That’s 14 out of 14.
Note: How could the Bible have foretold such a thing? It told the location of this nation, facts about its military, and even the time period it would come to pass. As was already said in Lk 24:25-O FOOLS, AND SLOW OF HEART TO BELIEVE ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN. Certainly, at this point, even the biggest skeptic in the world can see that the Bible is true, there is a God, and we are very near the time of the end.

Here are just a few more prophecies briefly given, out of the 365 that exist, regarding this latter day generation.

13. In the last days, people would be hoarding gold and silver. True. It began in the late 1970’s.

14. There would be a nation to the far east of Israel, to the end of the earth. This nation would have an army of 200 million. This is absolutely astounding. It is estimated by some that the population of the entire world at the time of Christ was only about 200,000,000. How then could the Bible have ever told the location of a nation and given such a figure as the size of its army nearly 2000 years ago? China has boasted that they could field an army of this exact figure.

15. The currency in Israel at the time of the end would be the shekel. The currency had been the Israeli pound until June 1980, when it was changed to the shekel. The Bible is flawless.

16. There would be an economic alliance of the nations of the Old Roman Empire. It would have a military capability. This is a perfect description of the European Economic Community (the EEC), which is in the process right now of adopting the one-currency system for many of their member nations. It is written, IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (these nations, which is now) SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM-Dan 2:44

Originally posted by Tinker683


The sacrifice was un-needed, and shouldn't have even been there to begin with, because God should have forgiven us at the beginning.



Can one be forgiven without first wanting to be forgiven?
No. In order to be forgiven you must first want to be forgiven, and that you cannot be forced into. Thus you could not already be forgiven because you have not decided that you to repent. Thus the sacrifice was necessary to provide a way to be forgiven. And yes, a way to be forgiven was necessary. If God cast out 1/3 of his angels, he could not just forgive man. God is just and thus all must be treated equally. God could not (or did not, I will not presume to know which) just forgive man because he has to treat man the way he treats his angels. Thus scince he could not forgive his angels, he cannot just forgive us. His sacrifice was indeed justified.

Originally posted by Aragorn
What is with you people and your bible quotes! The bible is only a book that was written by several different people and is also thousands of years old. It's relevancy is very slim because of these reasons.

Yeah but I have to say you can twist the words in it to back anything you want. If taken face value there are some good parables for living.

Kython13,

Welcome to sciforums.

Can one be forgiven without first wanting to be forgiven?
No. In order to be forgiven you must first want to be forgiven, and that you cannot be forced into. It is alleged that God is all-powerful, so he could forgive at any time if he so wished. It’s his rules.

Thus you could not already be forgiven because you have not decided that you to repent. But an all powerful God could have created the conditions where sin and therefore forgiveness weren’t necessary at all.

Thus the sacrifice was necessary to provide a way to be forgiven.What sacrifice? God has never sacrificed anything.

And yes, a way to be forgiven was necessary. If God cast out 1/3 of his angels, he could not just forgive man.That implies there is something he cannot do, and that is impossible for an all-powerful God.

God is just and thus all must be treated equally.Then why does he arbitrarily condemn some to hell and others he rewards by allowing them into heaven? That is hardly just or fair.

God could not (or did not, I will not presume to know which) just forgive man because he has to treat man the way he treats his angels.This God seems very limited.

Thus scince he could not forgive his angels, he cannot just forgive us. His sacrifice was indeed justified.So he created a complicated set of circumstances for himself, complete with self imposed restrictions and limitations, all so that we could be allowed to sin, be forced to worship him and beg for his forgiveness, so that he could make us his friend.

Why? Why did he not make us perfect in the first place? Isn’t he all-powerful? Why the seemingly complicated maze of intricate idiosyncrasies?

It looks like no such god exists and that Christianity is just a complicated fantasy that is being made to fit the facts of reality. The result is an idiotic Alice In Wonderland fairy tale that lacks any degree of sensible credibility.

Cris

What exatly do we need to be forgiven for? for being human?

Forgiven cause Adam & Eve bit the apple of the tree of knowledge?

Are we back to the Original Sin once more?


Kython13 welcome to Sciforum, can you explain to me why I need to be forgiven? What have I done? that requires the forgiveness of an all mighty being? It seems to me that the one who needs to be forgiving us is this all mighty being.

Who is at fault for our inadequacies?

No I don't have this viewpoint at all, but have some ideas that made me want to debate from it.

(going on the belief God exists, which I'm not sure about) No I don't think God is infallable, therefore he created the Earth and had to learn about our nature and the scary thing the nature of free will with us. So God created sin as a realization we would do things to each other and against him that shouldn't be promoted as a whole for the good of Earth. God chose to go through the complicated process of creating sin/forgiveness by creating something based upon the rules of the universe he created. Like a computer programer doesn't change a whole program just to change one thing that he could do within the rules he created. The question arises why didn't God just create sin and cange the universe. Well, maybe hes not as omnipitent as we think..... maybe that would have been harder for him.

Once again I don't uphold these beliefs, so don't attack me/my beliefs just my argument please. Thanks ~ Cactus

Kython13,

In your long post what references are you quoting from, or are these your own words?

If you are pasting from reference material then please quote the reference. If it is on the web then please provide a web link.

It is preferable to use your own words than those of a publication. Otherwise we would all just be fighting over whoose expert is better.

Cris

Originally posted by Cris

Then why does he arbitrarily condemn some to hell and others he rewards by allowing them into heaven? That is hardly just or fair.

Arbitrary? YOu are given the choice to either reject or accept forgiveness, God is merely honoring your decision.
Originally posted by Cris

So he created a complicated set of circumstances for himself, complete with self imposed restrictions and limitations, all so that we could be allowed to sin, be forced to worship him and beg for his forgiveness, so that he could make us his friend.

So you don't want to be allowed to sin? You would rather be a mindless puppet who carried out God's every wish? No, God gives you the choice between death and life, sin and a godly lifestyle. As for forced to worship him, you are forced to do nothing. Worship is a chosen outward display of thanks toward God for sparing us from the eternal fire we deserve for sinning. And if you refuse to accept that then interpret it as merely thanks for creating your life. Beg for forgiveness? Neg, you needent beg for forgiveness, nor need you even ask; Forgiveness has already been provided and you merely have to accept it, God is giving it to you, are you going to reject his free gift? Make us his friend. Is that not what we were made for to begin with? After creation, the Bible immediately speaks of Adam walking with God, conversing not as a minion who trembles at his voice, but as a friend in a casual conversation. This is what was intended, however it was ruined for us. Indeed, Adam and Eve first sinned and thus we are cursed by their actions, however God offers to allow us back into his graces, like a friend offering a peace, like.

Originally posted by Cris

Why? Why did he not make us perfect in the first place? Isn’t he all-powerful? Why the seemingly complicated maze of intricate idiosyncrasies?


He did make us perfect, in his image, however Satan tempted Adam and Eve, convinced them to sin and thus tainted them, and their blemishes are passes down to us. Why are they passed down to us? This I cannot answer, I am not all knowing, however, the fact remains that we are tainted. That is why being forgiven is often referred to as being washed clean. As for intricate idiosyncricies, is it truly so difficult to accept an outstreached hand?

Originally posted by Cris
Kython13,

In your long post what references are you quoting from, or are these your own words?

If you are pasting from reference material then please quote the reference. If it is on the web then please provide a web link.

It is preferable to use your own words than those of a publication. Otherwise we would all just be fighting over whoose expert is better.

Cris
You are correct that it is better to use our own word, however that first long post (which is from the below listed link) does present some valid points.
http://www.abundantbiblestudies.com/Documents/Bible_Desk/proof_bible_true.htm

Originally posted by Xev


Yes, sort of. We are all sinners, because we are weak and cannot abide by every single one of God's laws. God cannot abide sin, so sent His Son (or Himself - don't ask!) to sacrifice Himself to redeem our sin so that we could enter heaven.

Or at least this is my understanding, and it does vary according to denomination.

What I like is that God forgives Christians for breaking the rules that He made! A law with a built in loophole!

Because he does not want us to go to hell, however we must also acknowledge that we did break his law, and by taking his forgiveness we acknowledge that we need forgiveness

Welcome to sciforums, Kython!

Because he does not want us to go to hell,

Scripture does not agree:

Mark 4:9
And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
4:10
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.[/quote]

And, less importantly, Matthew 13:10

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
13:12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

SAB, KJV.

Besides, why would he create hell if he did not want to send people there?

however we must also acknowledge that we did break his law, and by taking his forgiveness we acknowledge that we need forgiveness

Correct, that is one of the few things that most Xtians agree on.

Kython13,

Welcome to Secifourms :)

Can one be forgiven without first wanting to be forgiven? No. In order to be forgiven you must first want to be forgiven, and that you cannot be forced into.

What on earth youare talking about?

Lets define "Forgive" shall we?

Using this online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm) I get this term.

Main Entry: for·give
Pronunciation: f&r-'giv, for-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): for·gave /-'gAv/; for·giv·en /-'gi-v&n/; -giv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English forgifan, from for- + gifan to give
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one's enemies>
intransitive senses : to grant forgiveness
synonym see EXCUSE
- for·giv·able /-'gi-v&-b&l/ adjective
- for·giv·ably /-blE/ adverb
- for·giv·er noun

By this very definition, what you just said made no sense. God doesn't need me to decide if I want to be forgiven, in order for him to forgive me. That is something he can do purely on his own, and doesn't need my consent at all.



Thus the sacrifice was necessary to provide a way to be forgiven. And yes, a way to be forgiven was necessary.

Why? Why did God have to do anything beyond think about it? If God had to do anything more, than God has limits. And if God has limits, then God is not God.

If God cast out 1/3 of his angels, he could not just forgive man. God is just and thus all must be treated equally.

Thats baloni. Why God casted out the angels he wanted no longer ( rather than just destory them ) is another topic altogether.

And to suggest that God treats people fairly is an insult to fairness. Sending someone to hell, for eternity,, for any reason, doesn't even belong in the same sentence as the word fair

God could not (or did not, I will not presume to know which) just forgive man because he has to treat man the way he treats his angels. Thus scince he could not forgive his angels, he cannot just forgive us. His sacrifice was indeed justified.


Assuming their was a sacrifice to begin with, God has to first answer why he must make any kind of a "sacrifice" in order to bestow his forgiveness.

I would address the other points, but I don't see that they have any value to reason. Does God have to explain his way of justice? Is he required to abide by any law? Is he required to treat Angels better/worse than his followers?

Sorry, but until you adequately address the first problem with this line of reasoning, the rest of your points are moot.

Will someone plz give me feedback on my "Religious Viewpoint argument" Earlier in this post?

I repent!! heck I don't know from what, but I still repent, from been human, from been happy, from enjoying sex, cusing, drinking, looking at pretty women etc...

So which way do I go now for salvation?

http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192

Heck forget it's just plainly to confusing!!
:confused:

Godless:

So which way do I go now for salvation?

Well, you start by giving me all your money. Then, from my private bungalow in Tahiti, while my man is sleeping and my daquiri blending, I will send you a short e-mail saying:

"SUCKER!" :p

Originally posted by Xev
Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

[/QUOTE]

I believe you are misinterptering Mark 4:12

"'they may be ever seeing but never percieving,
and ever hearing but never understanding,
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"
Mark 4:12 (NIV)

Lines 1 and 2 : people may see and hear what God is saying, but they aren't understanding what he is saying, thus Jesus speaks in parables to help clarify, and if you don't understand the parables, that is also understandable because they were written for people who lived two thousand years ago and thus the references made in them can be rather obscure in modern days.

Line 3: they see and hear but don't understand, otherwise (i.e. if they did understand) they might decide to be forgiven



As for creating hell and banishing the angels instead of destroying them, I honestly do not know the answer to that. I cannot puzzle out God's motivations, but merely try to interpret and/or clarify the word.

(going on the belief God exists, which I'm not sure about) No I don't think God is infallable, therefore he created the Earth and had to learn about our nature and the scary thing the nature of free will with us. So God created sin as a realization we would do things to each other and against him that shouldn't be promoted as a whole for the good of Earth. God chose to go through the complicated process of creating sin/forgiveness by creating something based upon the rules of the universe he created. Like a computer programer doesn't change a whole program just to change one thing that he could do within the rules he created. The question arises why didn't God just create sin and cange the universe. Well, maybe hes not as omnipitent as we think..... maybe that would have been harder for him.

Once again I don't uphold these beliefs, so don't attack me/my beliefs just my argument please. Thanks ~ Cactus [/B][/QUOTE]


First of all why would an omnipotent god need to learn of our nature? is he not omnipotent? This is a contradiction!. What sort of being would create evil? An evil being!!

Comparing god to a computer programer, can the computer programer change the program? yes, why does this god keep the same program if it went bad? instead *it* lies to us sends an angel Jesus, then *it* has him crusified for our inadeguacies? What kind of BS is that?

*Grins impishly*

Didn't you know that using any Bible but the KJV is the work of Satan?

Seems to be a difference in translation. I'll drop that argument.

Originally posted by Xev
Godless:



Well, you start by giving me all your money. Then, from my private bungalow in Tahiti, while my man is sleeping and my daquiri blending, I will send you a short e-mail saying:

"SUCKER!" :p

Did you see the link?

However instead of sending you the money I rather be the one sleeping!!;)

Kython13,

As for creating hell and banishing the angels instead of destroying them, I honestly do not know the answer to that. I cannot puzzle out God's motivations, but merely try to interpret and/or clarify the word.

Firstly, if you don't know what it is your wishing to prove, then please don't even open your mouth. " If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. "

Secondly, if you can't answer for God, then I expect ( Nay, I DEMAND ) that he reveal himself to me, NOW

If God really is this lovey-dovey all-father that so many Christians presume, and since his followers are too incompetant to answer for him, AND if he REALLY cares about me, the very least he can do is bring his almighty behind off his throne, and talk to me.

If he doesn't do anything less, then I'm not obligated in any which way to believe any bit of crap his believer spew at me.

I'm sorry if I sound really bitter, but I'm very cynical toward people who make claims, and then skirt away when they can't answer them, and just shrug their shoulders stupidly.

:mad:

Originally posted by Tinker683

What on earth youare talking about?

Lets define "Forgive" shall we?

Using this online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm) I get this term.

Main Entry: for·give
Pronunciation: f&r-'giv, for-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): for·gave /-'gAv/; for·giv·en /-'gi-v&n/; -giv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English forgifan, from for- + gifan to give
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b : to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one's enemies>
intransitive senses : to grant forgiveness
synonym see EXCUSE
- for·giv·able /-'gi-v&-b&l/ adjective
- for·giv·ably /-blE/ adverb
- for·giv·er noun

By this very definition, what you just said made no sense. God doesn't need me to decide if I want to be forgiven, in order for him to forgive me. That is something he can do purely on his own, and doesn't need my consent at all.


But you can refuse. For example: Let's suppose you and your best friend both like the same girl, and your friend is going out with her exclusively. Then you go out with the girl despite the fact she is your friend's girlfriend. You and your friend get in this huge fight over it and now hate each other. Then, your friend decides to put it behind him, forgive you for going out with his girlfriend. You still have the option of accepting his forgiveness or telling him to fuck off. Your friend wants to forgive you but you won't let him. *(by the way, Christians can curse, they just can't use the Lord's name in vain)

Originally posted by Tinker683

And to suggest that God treats people fairly is an insult to fairness. Sending someone to hell, for eternity,, for any reason, doesn't even belong in the same sentence as the word fair

God does send people to hell, but they chose to go there. It's not like you have to meet some special qualifications, all you have to do is accept his outstreached hand. Its like a person hanging from a cliff. They start to slip, but someone reaches down and offers to pull them up. It is the hanging persons choice as to whether they grab they hand or fall to ther death. Did that person deserve to die?
Originally posted by Tinker683

Assuming their was a sacrifice to begin with, God has to first answer why he must make any kind of a "sacrifice" in order to bestow his forgiveness.


There was a sacrifice. If you can't accept that Jesus was God, or that Jesus was God's son, surely you can at least accept that Jesus was a part of God. In the first sentence of Genesis "In the beginning, God ...". The original hebrew translation for the word God there actually means three in one, however in English we say it as God. Jesus was a part of God. Thus when Jesus came to earth and died on the cross, he did make a sacrifice.

Originally posted by Godless
(First of all why would an omnipotent god need to learn of our nature? is he not omnipotent? This is a contradiction!. What sort of being would create evil? An evil being!!

Comparing god to a computer programer, can the computer programer change the program? yes, why does this god keep the same program if it went bad? instead *it* lies to us sends an angel Jesus, then *it* has him crusified for our inadeguacies? What kind of BS is that?

Well first part of my point is that God isn't as omnipotent as we suspect "The question arises why didn't God just create sin and change the universe. Well, maybe hes not as omnipitent as we think..... maybe that would have been harder for him." Like it's easier to work within the confines of his program and he cannot see into the future, nor understand the nature of what he creates (think about free will). Second the crucifiction could be the way of changing things within the program. Also how did *it* "lie to us"?

P.S. ~ Thanks for the feedback, am much appreciative.

Godless: Yes, I saw the link, I have it bookmarked now.

If you care to be the one sleeping, I'll drop you a line once I find somone stupid enough to buy my story. ;)

Kython:
God does send people to hell, but they chose to go there. It's not like you have to meet some special qualifications, all you have to do is accept his outstreached hand. Its like a person hanging from a cliff. They start to slip, but someone reaches down and offers to pull them up. It is the hanging persons choice as to whether they grab they hand or fall to ther death. Did that person deserve to die?

Not exactly, since God sends people to hell for stupid reasons. It's not simply a matter of rejecting help, it's a matter of rejecting the rule of an evil tyrant.

Not only that, but you can be sure that there is a person offering you a hand. Can't be sure that there is a God.

Thus when Jesus came to earth and died on the cross, he did make a sacrifice.

*Paging Dr.Cris, Paging Dr.Cris.* :p

What exactly did God sacrifice?

Do/Are You:

1.) Believe people should find out what's wrong and right for themselves?

2.) Enjoying the meaning behind Marilyn Manson Songs?

3.) Enjoy the Writings of Nietzsche?

4.) A Satanitst.

5.) Get pissed on by people like Kython?

You might be a Radical Individualist, and hard core religous people (like kython) will always hate your guts. Because you don't agree with their "everything is a sin philosophy"

Originally posted by Godless
(going on the belief God exists, which I'm not sure about) No I don't think God is infallable, therefore he created the Earth and had to learn about our nature and the scary thing the nature of free will with us. So God created sin as a realization we would do things to each other and against him that shouldn't be promoted as a whole for the good of Earth. God chose to go through the complicated process of creating sin/forgiveness by creating something based upon the rules of the universe he created. Like a computer programer doesn't change a whole program just to change one thing that he could do within the rules he created. The question arises why didn't God just create sin and cange the universe. Well, maybe hes not as omnipitent as we think..... maybe that would have been harder for him.

Once again I don't uphold these beliefs, so don't attack me/my beliefs just my argument please. Thanks ~ Cactus


First of all why would an omnipotent god need to learn of our nature? is he not omnipotent? This is a contradiction!. What sort of being would create evil? An evil being!!

Comparing god to a computer programer, can the computer programer change the program? yes, why does this god keep the same program if it went bad? instead *it* lies to us sends an angel Jesus, then *it* has him crusified for our inadeguacies? What kind of BS is that? [/B][/QUOTE]
Despite what Catus claims, I do not believe God created sin for that reason. I don't fully know why he created sin. What I do know is that all sin spawned from 1 act, and that was Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge. This is where our sinful nature came from, from this first sin, and from the temptation presented by the sepent. As I have previously explained, man was not made sinful, he was made as a friend of God. Man was tainted by that sin and by Satan's temptations, and thus we are now sinful. I hope this answers your question about needing to learn our nature. He doesn't, and I don't know where Cactus came up with that.

Kython13,

But you can refuse....

You didn't even address my point.

My point was that GOD DOES NOT NEED TO PERFORM ANY ACTION BEYOND HIS OWN THOUGHTS TO FORGIVE SOMEONE! To suggest that he needs too, suggests that he has limits.

If God has limits, then God is not God.

Your analogy is logical- when it pretains to forgiveness in that format.
However, since you didn't even touch my orginal argument, your analogy is void.


God does send people to hell, but they chose to go there.

Oh please. The classic " Blame-the-Victim ". God is not obligated to send anyone to hell. If he has the power to prevent anyone from going to hell, then the fact that he is not doing so ( By your own admission ) speaks poorly for the character of God.

There was a sacrifice. If you can't accept that Jesus was God, or that Jesus was God's son, surely you can at least accept that Jesus was a part of God. In the first sentence of Genesis "In the beginning, God ...". The original hebrew translation for the word God there actually means three in one, however in English we say it as God. Jesus was a part of God. Thus when Jesus came to earth and died on the cross, he did make a sacrifice.

Not only did you fail to provide evidence to support your claim, but you then made an assumption reguarding the Bible. Unless you can prove to me that I should take anything the Bible says worth salt, your argument is invalid.

Cactus: Wouldn't declaring myself an individualist be joining a group? :D

Sorry, bad joke.

Tinker:
Oh please. The classic " Blame-the-Victim ". God is not obligated to send anyone to hell. If he has the power to prevent anyone from going to hell, then the fact that he is not doing so ( By your own admission ) speaks poorly for the character of God.

Yeah, that and the genocides that He commanded and rewarded....

Hahahahaha.

Originally posted by Tinker683
Kython13,



Firstly, if you don't know what it is your wishing to prove, then please don't even open your mouth. " If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. "

Secondly, if you can't answer for God, then I expect ( Nay, I DEMAND ) that he reveal himself to me, NOW

If God really is this lovey-dovey all-father that so many Christians presume, and since his followers are too incompetant to answer for him, AND if he REALLY cares about me, the very least he can do is bring his almighty behind off his throne, and talk to me.

If he doesn't do anything less, then I'm not obligated in any which way to believe any bit of crap his believer spew at me.

I'm sorry if I sound really bitter, but I'm very cynical toward people who make claims, and then skirt away when they can't answer them, and just shrug their shoulders stupidly.

:mad:
But his followers can explain. That is what the bible is. God's word, given to his followers, and written down, passed to us. Before you say he hasn't explained himself, truly read the bible and take time to contemplate it. It isn't easy fourth grade reading, you can't just fly through it. You have to take time to think. I admit, I haven't read the entire bible, I am passing on to you what I do know. If I leave some blanks in my explinations, it is not due to God's lack of explanation, but rather my personal ignorance on that topic. If you don't want to read, at least talk to someone knowledgeable on the topic, like a pastor. I am only a sixteen year old who is trying to udo the idiocy of Sir Loone and other on these forums. I'm not trying to convert people, I'm not even trying to get you to consider Cristianity (although I hope you will), I am merely trying to help unknot what misconceptions I can.

kython - why choose Christianity?

I agree the bible is good if read "face-value" but once you read into it too much shit happens. Also (I know I say it a lot) having a well respected book that you can twist to mean anything you want is pretty cool.

Before you say he hasn't explained himself, truly read the bible and take time to contemplate it.

I have, thanks though.

am only a sixteen year old who is trying to udo the idiocy of Sir Loone and other on these forums. I'm not trying to convert people, I'm not even trying to get you to consider Cristianity (although I hope you will), I am merely trying to help unknot what misconceptions I can.

Wow! You sound pretty mature, even for a thiest.

Don't mean to sound like an old fart, I've only just turned 18 myself.

Well, have fun here.

Kython13,

The Bible is the Word of God?

I'll remember to hold you too that. :p

The Bible is a book riddled with inconsistencies, errors, and horrors. In it, God condones genocides, rape, murder, and then eternal damnation, for a crime that he refuses to prevent!

The first problem with your assumption that the Bible is flawless ( the Word of God, right? ) I would ask you to prove this.

Your second problem is your assumption that I haven't read it. I have, and I have rejected it for the above reasons.

Now I'm assuming, by your claim, that you have read the Bible, yes? If so, then I would ask you to explain the atrocities, and the inconsistancies, commited in the Bible. If you fail to do so, then I'm not obligated, in any way, to consider your claims.

However, if you CAN adequatly explain the above, then I promise I will convert on the spot.

Deal?

Originally posted by Xev

Not exactly, since God sends people to hell for stupid reasons. It's not simply a matter of rejecting help, it's a matter of rejecting the rule of an evil tyrant.

But a tyrant wouldn't let you choose. They would decide for you.
And as for stupid reasons, who is to say what is stupid? It is an opinion. In someplaces you can have your hand cut off for stealing a candy bar, or your tounge cut out for lying. I agree that these may seem stupid to us, but to them it is obviously important. Any sin of any kind is important to God.

Originally posted by Xev

Not only that, but you can be sure that there is a person offering you a hand. Can't be sure that there is a God.


I'm not going to argue if there is a God, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with everything else, However, if the bible is true (see previous posts), and the bible says there is a God, I believe there is a God.
Originally posted by Xev

What exactly did God sacrifice?

You can call Jesus his son, part of God, etc. If Jesus is God's son, God sacrificed his son. If Jesus is a part of God, God sacrificed a part of himself (like a man giving up a lung to save his child).

Originally posted by Tyler
kython - why choose Christianity?
Why did I choose Christianity to argue for? Because Sir Loone is a moron who kept getting ripped apart so I felt Christianity needed some good representation to keep these forums going, and hopefully something I say will affect someone else

"You can call Jesus his son, part of God, etc. If Jesus is God's son, God sacrificed his son. If Jesus is a part of God, God sacrificed a part of himself (like a man giving up a lung to save his child)."

How did he sacrifice anything? Jesus is still around, right? I mean, his spirit? He still exists, on a different plane?

Last time I checked, sacrifice meant giving something up.

Originally posted by Tinker683
Kython13,The Bible is a book riddled with inconsistencies, errors, and horrors. In it, God condones genocides, rape, murder, and then eternal damnation, for a crime that he refuses to prevent!
?

I think that's because people were writing down true events and then creating a religion at the same time. All of the above are human themes present even today. It was just that in their quest to create an organized religion they had to codnemn these things, even though those great to the relgion had commited them.

Speaking of which..... Heard about Bishops molesting kids

:D

And I meant why choose Christianity as your religioun!

Originally posted by Kython13
If Jesus is a part of God, God sacrificed a part of himself (like a man giving up a lung to save his child). I must say if the same man get his lung back after a while(say three days), is it still a sacrifice?

Kython:
And as for stupid reasons, who is to say what is stupid? It is an opinion. In someplaces you can have your hand cut off for stealing a candy bar, or your tounge cut out for lying. I agree that these may seem stupid to us, but to them it is obviously important. Any sin of any kind is important to God.

Then God is stupid.

You can call Jesus his son, part of God, etc. If Jesus is God's son, God sacrificed his son. If Jesus is a part of God, God sacrificed a part of himself (like a man giving up a lung to save his child).

CRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSS!

Sorry. Here, this should help:

http://www.sciforums.com/f22/s/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6315&pagenumber=1

It's basically what Tyler said, (thanks Tyler), but more formal.

Originally posted by Tinker683

The first problem with your assumption that the Bible is flawless ( the Word of God, right? ) I would ask you to prove this.

I am not going to argue this point. There are dozens of thesis, essays, debates, etc. on this topic. I have already admitted I don't know everything, so I will also admit that any attempt I try to argue this would end up in a circular argument.

Originally posted by Tinker683

Your second problem is your assumption that I haven't read it. I have, and I have rejected it for the above reasons.

Now I'm assuming, by your claim, that you have read the Bible, yes? If so, then I would ask you to explain the atrocities, and the inconsistancies, commited in the Bible. If you fail to do so, then I'm not obligated, in any way, to consider your claims.

However, if you CAN adequatly explain the above, then I promise I will convert on the spot.

I'll try to get back to you on that. It will require some in depth research on my part. If you can give me some specific examples I'll be able to respond better.

Originally posted by Tinker683

Deal?
Deal

Kython13,

But a tyrant wouldn't let you choose.

Oh my goodness.

You call what God have given us, a choice !?!

I was born into a world, condemned for a crime I didn't commit, and then expected to beg forgiveness to the very being who condemned us in the first place!

And your right. We don't have to choose God, we can say so, and suffer in eternal punishment, forever and ever and ever, sent there by him

Yeah. A choice. Hmm.... life, or eternal damnation.

I'd have rather not even been born, thank you very much.

Do you even consider this fair? Moral? This is the kind of thing gangsters do with some shops. They get the shops to pay them money for " protection " from their wrath. They don't have to pay, of course, they can choose to ignore them, and either get killed, miamed, or hurt otherwise.

Are you seriously implying that this is the same loving God you just told me about?



I'm not going to argue if there is a God, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with everything else, However, if the bible is true (see previous posts), and the bible says there is a God, I believe there is a God.

Firstly, If your not here to argue the case of God, then why are you argueing for their point?

Secondly, what previous posts? Please elaborate.

Thirdly, your assuming that the Bible is correct. I ask yuo, again, to prove that to me.

If you can't, than, I repeat, I don't need to consider any of your claims.

And in reguards to the sacrifice argument, Prove that God acually sacrificed anything!!

Jesus died, yes, but only for three days- then he was restored to life. If he was restored, then his act was meaningless. ( Unless your implying that his death had some kind of cosmic repreccusions, in which case, you'd need to prove it )

If Jesus's death were to really mean anything, he would still have to be in hell today. Even if he were, I would have to once again ask God, Why? Why did he have to die? Why couldn't God just forgive human beings?

Kython13,

I am not going to argue this point.

Then please do not make the claim that it is ( I.e. the Word of God ). I would further ask you, as one debator to another, to stop making claims that you will refuse to later prove. It makes you look like an idiot.

I'll try to get back to you on that. It will require some in depth research on my part.

On mine as well. I have all the verses down, I just have to make the tremendous task of copying-and-pasting them.

Had I the time ( Yes, There are that many ) I would do so now. Prehaps tommarrow.

See you then!

Now really Tinker.......Would it be 'The Greatest Story Ever Told' if God could just 'forgive us'?



"Thirdly, your assuming that the Bible is correct. I ask yuo, again, to prove that to me"

I'm okay with not doing this. When we're argueing over the nature of God, we assume the Christian God is real. Or we, atheists, say 'If this is true'.....

Originally posted by Cactus Jack


I think that's because people were writing down true events and then creating a religion at the same time. All of the above are human themes present even today. It was just that in their quest to create an organized religion they had to codnemn these things, even though those great to the relgion had commited them.

So people created a religion around current events over a timespan of 6000 years?
Originally posted by Cactus Jack


Speaking of which..... Heard about Bishops molesting kids


Yes. First, The Catholic church doesn't condone it, and is now taking steps to try to end it. Secondly, I'm not a Bishop. Thirdly, I'm not Roman Catholic either. Fourthly, never believe everyone in the church is perfect and holy, the church is not a haven for saints. If it was, my attending church would ruin it. But rather, it is a hospital for sinners.

Tyler,

Now really Tinker.......Would it be 'The Greatest Story Ever Told' if God could just 'forgive us'?

Well, it sure as hell would be a better explanation than this bogus line of reasoning Christians profess.

The idea that God needs to do anything other than just think the concept of forgiveing us, is seriously an insult to God.

It would be like me saying I'd have to kill my friends child, in order to forgive him of some past reguard. It's bogus. I could just forgive him, and be done with it. ( And now wether or not I choose to associate myself with him, depends on what he did. )

I'm okay with not doing this. When we're argueing over the nature of God, we assume the Christian God is real. Or we, atheists, say 'If this is true'.....

Unfortunately so. But in the mind of the Chrisitan, God is real. If I don't think theres much reason to consider his existance, I will present my arguement. ( Which I have done, since I have come to these forums. )

If Christianity ( or any other religion ) can provide adequate information reguarding the existance of God, then I will happily "take up my cross " as it were, and follow.

But until that day happens, I'm not going to believe there is a God.

Originally posted by Xev
Kython:

CRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSS!

Sorry. Here, this should help:

http://www.sciforums.com/f22/s/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6315&pagenumber=1

It's basically what Tyler said, (thanks Tyler), but more formal.

Jesus, who is God, came to earth and became a man. He lived a perfect life, and died. In the crucifixtion story, it is explained that as he hung on the cross, Jesus bore the sins of man. Yes he rose again. He lived his whole life perfectly, and then sacrificed his perfect live by bearing our sins. I think it isn't just that Jesus died that we are forgiven, but also that he sacrificed his perfect life. As he hung on the cross, when our sins were heaped upon Jesus, his perfect life was sacrificed, then his body died as well. My point is that he not died in body, but he sacrificed his perfection. Also, in reference to Cris's proof 3, Jesus did suffer. Jesus lived his entire life with God. His greatest suffering was when he was no longer with God.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" Matthew 27:45 (NIV)

Originally posted by Tyler
And I meant why choose Christianity as your religioun!
It's how I was raised. It's what I believe

Kython13,

For a 16 year old you are performing superbly and a real equal to most here. If it doesn’t sound too condescending I offer you my congratulations for your ability to make considered, disciplined and polite posts. A very pleasant and refreshing change from the lunacy of Loone, who I see you have noticed.

I have a couple of questions for you.

The Problem of the Adam and Eve Paradox.

I don't fully know why he created sin. What I do know is that all sin spawned from 1 act, and that was Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge. This is where our sinful nature came from, from this first sin, and from the temptation presented by the serpent.Consider this as a question of logic that doesn’t really require extensive biblical knowledge.

It isn’t the tree of knowledge but the ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil’ that Adam and Eve ate from. See Genesis 2:9.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree. How did they know it was wrong to eat from the tree? How did they know it was wrong to disobey God?

Remember that before they ate from the tree they would have had no knowledge of good or evil. This means they would not have known that it was bad to disobey God.

It was only after they ate from the tree that they finally had sufficient knowledge to know what they should not have done.

For God to then condemn them and to inflict massive misery on the billions of offspring to follow is in itself an act of evil. He had unfairly not appropriately instructed them on the nature of Good and Evil and the implications of their actions. In short they were tricked.

Since God is allegedly omniscient and the creator, then he knew exactly what was going to happen and as the creator he must have planned it that way since nothing can occur that does not conform to his design.

The conclusion must be that sin was part of God’s design from the beginning and the trick he played on Adam and Eve completely exonerates them from any blame.

The first sin was God’s evil trick played on Adam and Eve. Either that or he was incompetent from not teaching them correctly so they could avoid their error.

How would you explain this paradox?

Where did everyone come from?

The story of Adam and Eve is essential to the entire basis of Christianity. It is the means that sin is introduced and the basic reason why Jesus was sent to Earth. If the story of Adam and Eve is false then the entire basis for Christianity has no validity.

It is claimed that all peoples of the Earth were the offspring and descendents of Adam and Eve. Even if Adam and Eve were of two different races that still couldn’t explain the hundreds of races that currently populate the earth. Where did all these other peoples come from?

The Problem of Omniscience.

Arbitrary? You are given the choice to either reject or accept forgiveness, God is merely honoring your decision.If God is both the creator and is omniscient then humans have no choice over their actions.

From the instant the universe was created God would have perfect knowledge of every action that will ever be made by any human that will exist. All actual actions of any human are then effectively fully pre-determined and humans cannot have any power to initiate a change since that would imply that God is not omniscient.

Since he would have designed the entire future of every human then why did he arbitrarily decide that some would find perfection in paradise and another set would suffer eternal torture in hell?

This again seems to indicate a particularly evil being.

If humans effectively have no free will then the claim that we can choose between accepting Jesus as a savior or choosing hell is meaningless.

The Issue of Sacrifice.

Jesus, who is God, came to earth and became a man. He lived a perfect life, and died. In the crucifixtion story, it is explained that as he hung on the cross, Jesus bore the sins of man. Yes he rose again. He lived his whole life perfectly, and then sacrificed his perfect live by bearing our sins. I think it isn't just that Jesus died that we are forgiven, but also that he sacrificed his perfect life. As he hung on the cross, when our sins were heaped upon Jesus, his perfect life was sacrificed, then his body died as well. My point is that he not died in body, but he sacrificed his perfection. Again the issue is what was sacrificed? The implication of a God sacrifice is that something tremendous was given up for the sake of mankind.

But God still exists, and Jesus still exists in all his perfection. Or do you wish to imply that Jesus is no longer perfect. Before Jesus came to earth God was perfect. After the entire Jesus episode and crucifixion Jesus has returned to whence he came and is continuing as before. What was lost or sacrificed.

But even if we accept that Jesus as a man led a perfect life then what value is that claim? He knew he was special and he must have had special knowledge of God. Unless those miracles he performed were somehow accidents. In short he had privileged knowledge that other men would not have. That gave him a massively unfair advantage making it significantly easy for him to live a perfect life. So any stress on his perfection is meaningless.

A fair test would have been for him to be born on Earth without any special knowledge or powers and then see how he would live with all the human imperfections and temptations of reality.

So I still do not see that anything of any value was sacrificed.

Summary.

1. The claim for original sin seems to be invalid.
2. The validity of the whole Adam and Eve story seems impossible.
3. Humans cannot have any free will if God exists.
4. The claim of a Christian sacrifice is empty.

All of these issues strike at the heart of Christianity. Without full and comprehensive answers Christianity simply appears to be a foolish fantasy.

Cris

Xev,

Did you call???

You were doing fine without me.

Cris

Kyton 13,

I am only a sixteen year old who is trying to udo the idiocy of Sir Loone and other on these forums.

As a Christian, what exactly as Sir Loone done, that you feel you have to try and undo?

Love

Jan Ardena.

As an Adamist... What has Sir Loone not done? :p

Every argument of forgiveness of all the Christians branches falls upon Original Sin, we must repent for our own existence, we must obey the word of this god, whom has condemned humanity for being human!.

Quote: Ayn Rand*: Original Sin; your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.

A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choise is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin, a factnot open to his choise is a mockery of morality. To hold man's nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To unish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocense exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.*


Kython13, most athiest I've ever met have been of one denomination or anohter, I have been a Catholic, a Christian and last a Babtist, I jumped a bit! I guess. Anyhow we've all read the bible, some athiests still study the bible it's the best weapon against Christianity that exists!!. I'm not going to mock your age however you still got much learning to do, specially in philosophy, and then if you can understand Chris, you will learn alot of logic, from him.

I'm an Objectivist, read some of the work from Ayn Rand, heck start with a novel!. "The Fountain Head" comes to mind, it's a good story, and one which you will enjoy. I promise it will not change your views on religion, it didn't change my sister, and she enjoyed it tremendously!.

Originally posted by Cris
Kython13,
For a 16 year old you are performing superbly and a real equal to most here. If it doesn’t sound too condescending I offer you my congratulations for your ability to make considered, disciplined and polite posts. A very pleasant and refreshing change from the lunacy of Loone, who I see you have noticed.

Bravo Chris, for pointing this out. I concur. Kython13, you're doing a great job in the face of quite a bit of opposition.


The Problem of Omniscience.

If God is both the creator and is omniscient then humans have no choice over their actions.

From the instant the universe was created God would have perfect knowledge of every action that will ever be made by any human that will exist. All actual actions of any human are then effectively fully pre-determined and humans cannot have any power to initiate a change since that would imply that God is not omniscient.

I've argued this point in another thread. Omniscience does not force predetermination. The argument "omniscience equals predetermination" carries a modal fallacy: Given A therefore necessarily A. Given A is not strong enough to force necessarily A. In this case A is any known event or set of known events.

This can be exhibited by adjusting our temporal frame of reference. Given that I had pasta for dinner last night, it was necessary that I had pasta for dinner last night. This statement invokes the same fallacy. The known event A (I had pasta for dinner last night) is true does not make it necessary that A is true. In other words, knowledge of an event is not causal to the event.

This applies to any future observation of our present or future as well. That tomorrow, or 10,000 year in the future some observer will 'know' events that are yet to occur today does not force those events to occur. You can carry this out to the end of time or to a reference point outside of time.

Another way to demonstrate this is via the diagrams below:

The argument that omniscience forces the event implies:

knowledge -> event

Where knowledge of the event becomes the cause of the event.

Instead of:

cause -> event -> knowledge

Where knowledge derives from the event and does not change causation.

~Raithere

Omniscience does equal predetermination. An omniscient being occupies the whole time line, and therefore have complete knowledge of the whole time line. In another word, all events had happened in this being's view. So what's the difference between predetermination vs. everything already happened?

Originally posted by Kython13

So people created a religion around current events over a timespan of 6000 years?

Yes. First, The Catholic church doesn't condone it, and is now taking steps to try to end it. Secondly, I'm not a Bishop. Thirdly, I'm not Roman Catholic either. Fourthly, never believe everyone in the church is perfect and holy, the church is not a haven for saints. If it was, my attending church would ruin it. But rather, it is a hospital for sinners.


You misunderstood me. It wasn't that the people based there religion around this, but that the forerunner of this religion were human and had human impulses/situations that re-ocur even to this day.

Also the bishop thing was just a joke, good job arguing against it though.........

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
So what's the difference between predetermination vs. everything already happened?
It depends on your temporal frame of reference.

Try this example. Columbus continued so sail across the Atlantic despite the worries of his crew. He could have decided differently but we know, since this event is in our past, that he didn't. Does the fact that we have knowledge of the event at this point in time (temporal frame of reference) mean that his actions and the event were predetermined?

Likewise, an observer (be it God or some future human) at the end of time will know our actions but the knowledge does not cause our actions.

We are to Columbus as an omniscient being would be to us. The fact of knowledge before or after the event does not reverse the causal connection between cause, event, and knowledge.

The veracity of knowledge derives from the event.
The event does not derive from the veracity of knowledge.

~Raithere

Look, I did'nt mean to affend or anger anyone with my opinion but I have lived around people that simply interpret the bible word for word and that is simply the wrong way to go about it. That's why I think quoting the bible really makes no sense. You're right. The bible is full of many great lessons and messages but it is also full of alot of bull s##t.

Raithere,

The veracity of knowledge derives from the event.
The event does not derive from the veracity of knowledge.The issue becomes how does something have perfect knowledge of an event before it occurs.

Omniscience isn’t about observing an event but knowing with certainty that it will occur. The implication isn’t that knowledge will cause the event, but that the cause is so well defined that perfect knowledge of the result becomes possible.

How does a god have such perfect knowledge? It is because he created the environment (the universe) in which the events will occur.

Note my full statement “If God is both the creator and is omniscient”.

If I write a computer program and I feed it data that I have defined then I will have perfect knowledge of every result that the program will produce, before the program is ever run. That is omniscience (within this specific scope). If I control all the factors then I cannot help but have perfect knowledge of everything. And in this case all the results are perfectly pre-determined.

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and omniscient and created the universe. Then everything that ever happens is perfectly pre-determined.

Cris

I think that claims for an omniscient and/or omnipotent god are difficult to support with logic. There are two possible solutions to the problems they raise:

1. Back off from the claims - i.e. do not require God to be omnipotent/omniscient.

OR

2. Relax the restriction that God must be logical.

Originally posted by Cris


If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and omniscient and created the universe. Then everything that ever happens is perfectly pre-determined.

Cris

However is it not also possible for something to not be predetermined even if the outcome is known? If I were to offer you a million dollars or a chance to grab a hot branding iron, which would you choose. Quite obviously you would choose the cash (if your sane). In this situation it is clear to us which decision would be chosen. Similarly, if you are faced with a choice (one in which the outcome isn't as clear), an omnipotent and omniscient being would be able to determine which you would choose. You still have the choice, only God would already know which one you will choose.

Originally posted by Cris

The Problem of the Adam and Eve Paradox.

Consider this as a question of logic that doesn’t really require extensive biblical knowledge.

It isn’t the tree of knowledge but the ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil’ that Adam and Eve ate from. See Genesis 2:9.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from that tree. How did they know it was wrong to eat from the tree? How did they know it was wrong to disobey God?

Remember that before they ate from the tree they would have had no knowledge of good or evil. This means they would not have known that it was bad to disobey God.

It was only after they ate from the tree that they finally had sufficient knowledge to know what they should not have done.


"but you must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:17

In this passage God tells Adam that he cannot eat from this tree. You are correct in that he cannot know evil at this point, however he can know what death is.
This is further clarified for us who do understand evil in Romans 6:23 and various other verses.
"For the wages of sin is death,..." Romans 6:23
What this is essentially saying is that sin leads to death. In this light, sin is comparable to removing a knife from its sheath, or to loading a semi-automatic to play Russian Roulette. In other words, sin is a step towards death. In Adam learning of evil, he learned of sin itself.

If you don't agree that Adam knew what death was, let's simply work from the friendship between God and Adam. Let's suppose you and your best friend are talking and the conversation turns towards their past before you met them. Despite you two being the best of friends, you still don't know much about when your friend was younger. They then ask you to not pry into it, and then immediately close up (They become cold and distant ). From their reaction, it is obvious that you should respect their wish. Similarly, Adam was a best friend (because Adam was the only person) of God. Thus should Adam have at the least respected his friend's request. Granted this example fails to take into account the power and knowledge difference between God and Adam, but the example still applies.

[i]Originally posted by Cris


Where did everyone come from?

The story of Adam and Eve is essential to the entire basis of Christianity. It is the means that sin is introduced and the basic reason why Jesus was sent to Earth. If the story of Adam and Eve is false then the entire basis for Christianity has no validity.

It is claimed that all peoples of the Earth were the offspring and descendents of Adam and Eve. Even if Adam and Eve were of two different races that still couldn’t explain the hundreds of races that currently populate the earth. Where did all these other peoples come from?


First, there are hundreds of different nationalities, but not races. Each nationality can be tied into a larger, more general race. For instance, French, English, German, and Russian can be classified under a Caucasian race. Iraqi, Iranian, Egyptian, and Afghan can all be classified as Arabic.
Second, (and keep in mind I am not entirely sure about the specifics of genetics but...) Let's assume both Adam and Eve were African. Having dark skin is a dominant trait and fair skin is passive. Let's classify dark skin as A, and fair skin is a. Therefore let us assume both Adam and Eve were both of the Aa type. Because of the dominant A, they would have dark skin, and would be carriers of a, the fair skin. Now lets examine their possible offspring.
___|_A_|_a_
_A_|AA_|Aa_
_a_|Aa_|aa_
Adam and Eve are represented by the left column and the top row. The possible genetic combinations of their children are the cells which contain 2 letters. Thus from this union, it would be possible to create children with both dark (AA,Aa,Aa), and light (aa) skin. From this process (not only in skin color, but also in many other traits), it is possible for numerous different races to come into being. Furthermore, I will not discount man's ability to adapt to their surroundings contributing to this, as well as the possibility of Adam and Eve being of different genetics (however I would have to believe that they were essentiall the same genetically , except for gender of course).

Originally posted by Cris


[b]The Issue of Sacrifice.

Again the issue is what was sacrificed? The implication of a God sacrifice is that something tremendous was given up for the sake of mankind.

But God still exists, and Jesus still exists in all his perfection. Or do you wish to imply that Jesus is no longer perfect. Before Jesus came to earth God was perfect. After the entire Jesus episode and crucifixion Jesus has returned to whence he came and is continuing as before. What was lost or sacrificed.

But even if we accept that Jesus as a man led a perfect life then what value is that claim? He knew he was special and he must have had special knowledge of God. Unless those miracles he performed were somehow accidents. In short he had privileged knowledge that other men would not have. That gave him a massively unfair advantage making it significantly easy for him to live a perfect life. So any stress on his perfection is meaningless.

A fair test would have been for him to be born on Earth without any special knowledge or powers and then see how he would live with all the human imperfections and temptations of reality.

I think it is only fair to point out that Jesus was born normal. Yes he probably grew with the knowledge of his origins, but your points of his having special knowledge and/or abilites at birth is baseless. Jesus may have been more intelligent than most, but he had no special knowledge at birth.

"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17

It is at this point that Jesus recieved his special knowledge and abilities. The Holy Spirit is biblically connected with the ability to perform miracles, and with the clarity to preach the word. Neither could the apostles could only perform these until after recieving the spirit.

Thus should Adam have at the least respected his friend's request. Granted this example fails to take into account the power and knowledge difference between God and Adam, but the example still applies.

What 'friend' would deny their friend knowledge?

This disrespect for knowledge is one of the evils of Christianity.

From this process (not only in skin color, but also in many other traits), it is possible for numerous different races to come into being.

This would be possible with mutation and natural selection, but it would take longer than 6000 years.

And what have you just done? You've accepted EVIL - LUTION!

Don't wanna do that. ;)

Furthermore, I will not discount man's ability to adapt to their surroundings contributing to this, as well as the possibility of Adam and Eve being of different genetics (however I would have to believe that they were essentiall the same genetically [because Eve came from Adam's own flesh], except for gender of course).

Depends on which creation account you follow.

Uh oh, seems we have a contradiction.

Jan Ardena asked an interesting question - what exactly has Loone done?

Originally posted by Xev


What 'friend' would deny their friend knowledge?


It would depend on the knowledge, I personally have parts of my history I would not tell anyone. I am not ashamed of that past, however I would not subject people to that knowledge. Surely tou have something you cannot or would not tell anyone. Whether it be an action, and experience, a thought, etc.

The knowledge of good and evil can be classified as a thought, an idea, a concept. There are certain things that should not be known.

Originally posted by Xev


This would be possible with mutation and natural selection, but it would take longer than 6000 years.



I wasn't speaking of evolution or mutation, but rather of migrationa and isolation. As more and more people reproduced and expanded to fill the land that was available to them, traits in specific reigons would become prevalent. This is especially true in the early days of creation where numbers would be significantly lower, and thus a single family moving to an isolated reigon would over time create a new race. For example, if one family moved to modern day Sweden, then had dozens of children, who would those children marry? Scince the family is isolated in this region they would likely marry a brother or sister. Then, through three or four generations of inbreeding, along with this continued isolation and numerous children, you could easily see the spawning of a new group of people. This inbreeding would bring numerous traits to the fore. In the example of scandinavians, the characteristic blond hair, large build, and large amounts of hair (this emergence of traits is adequately illustrated in the Dynastic rulers of France, Enland, Germany, Russia, etc. These families were largely interrelated and thus the trait of being a bleeder became prevelent). This group would then continue to grow and eventually turn into what we refer to as another race.
*inbreeding and incest were quite common in all of history up until about the 1800's, especially among the above mentioned royal dynasties

[i]Originally posted by Xev


Jan Ardena asked an interesting question - what exactly has Loone done?



1) His random and irrelavent quoting of bible verses only serve to form the basis for numerous jokes. These jokes would then grow via the snowball effect. I felt that these jokes were seriously affecting the credibility of anyone who tried to argue a point similar to Sir Loone's. I was almost disuaded from even joining the forum because I didn't think I could argue rationally and would simply become another object of ridicule, almost.
2) His turn or burn philosiphy is outdated. The fire and brimstone messages lost their true value in the 1800's. I instead subscribe to the philosiphy of rationally trying to untie the theological knots casued by the turn or burn philosiphy, as well as trying to right the misconceptions about Christianity caused by society. Instead of threats, I present the idea's of Christianity from a different perspective and try to encourage you to make your own decision and draw your own conclusions.

Kython:
The knowledge of good and evil can be classified as a thought, an idea, a concept. There are certain things that should not be known.

God denied Adam the possibility of morality. Is that somthing a friend would do?

I wasn't speaking of evolution or mutation, but rather of migrationa and isolation.

You're describing speciation, whether you know it or not. ;)

His random and irrelavent quoting of bible verses only serve to form the basis for numerous jokes. These jokes would then grow via the snowball effect.

You noticed?! :p

Loone's funny.

His turn or burn philosiphy is outdated. The fire and brimstone messages lost their true value in the 1800's.

Yes but
A: It illustrates what a sham Christianity is (no offense)
B: It's funny!

Regarding all that knowledge/apple/eden stuff:

I like learning. Apples are okay too I guess.

Well, tomatoes are from the Americas I think, and this was all from the Middle East.

Originally posted by Xev

God denied Adam the possibility of morality. Is that somthing a friend would do?


God did not deny Adam morality, but rather offered the choice. Adam chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is where he learned of evil and was banished from the garden. Granted Adam did not know the difference between good and evil, but he did bith know and decide between life and death. Adam then lived the rest of his life as we all do. We live with the knowledge of good and evil and thus must decide for ourselves which path to embrace. However, the perfect path of morality is nearly unatainable. This unatainable status is not due to God, but rather to man's own decisions and desires that remove the posibility of morality.

Hey Adam, bum rap you're getting!

Kython:

How could Adam be moral without knowing the difference between good and evil?

God gave Adam* and Eve a choice between morality and a life of pain. Some friend!

*Note that Xev does not believe a word of this!

Hey, I was there, pal! I know what went down! This is how it was...

Eve popped out from behind a bush wearing her sexiest Sunday fig leaf. She had this food-lookin' stuff. I was ignorant, you see, so I had no idea what it was. "Tree Of Knowledge" ring a bell? I had no knowledge. I didn't know it was a friggin apple. God told me a while back "Don't eat the apples" and I said "Yeah, fine" but of course I didn't know what a bloody apple was. So here's Eve with some kinda food. She says "Hungry?" and I say "Yep." She gives me this thing she's already bitten into.

So, I eat the bloody thing. Now, until that moment I had no idea what an apple was. I had no idea what the difference was between knowledge and morality, good and evil, ignorance or other paths and free will to choose the right path. Pretty much all I did was sit there all day appreciating the tranquility of my garden.

So I ate it.

Then I realised something. God didn't want me to be "good". Being good requires the knowledge or good and evil and the choice to be good. God wanted me to sit on a shelf like a trophy, like a little plastic model. Fuck that. If I was made in his image, then either he never had free will or he intended me to have free will. One or the other must be true. Since we assume God is sentient, I'll go with the latter, that I was intended to have free will all along. And everything happens according to God's plan, remember?

So, I've recently acquired this free will stuff, as intended. Not through my own choice, for I was ignorant before, but through God's planning. And what happens? I lose it all. I ahd a nice home, everything was fine. I follow the plan and do as intended, and BOOM! I'm booted out into the cold.

Fuck him. He's not my friend any more.

Originally posted by Cris
Omniscience isn’t about observing an event but knowing with certainty that it will occur. The implication isn’t that knowledge will cause the event, but that the cause is so well defined that perfect knowledge of the result becomes possible.
I disagree. Omniscience is literally "knowing everything" which is not the same as precognition (though even precognition doesn't predicate determinism either). Determinism, in this debate, isn't about the accuracy of prediction but the elimination of choice and chance.

The argument you are providing is not as much about omniscience as it is about a completely causal universe. If every event is only the outcome of previous, discrete events then we do live in a deterministic universe; whether or not there is an observer is irrelevant. Omniscience does not mandate that we live in a causal universe. In fact, observation has shown that we do not live in a causal universe. Quantum theory has given us virtual particles, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and Schroedinger's cat, which demonstrates that at a fundamental level this universe is, at best, probabilistic.

Given this, an event can only be known after it is observed. Of course, this cannot happen until the event occurs, thereby placing the omniscient observer at the end of time or outside of time.

~Raithere

Kython13 (and any other theists):

Just wondering if you have considered the following. Just as a hypothetical question. I'd like to hear your response:

Does / can morality exist apart from God?

In other words, if someone (hypothetically) was able to convince you that God didn't exist would there still be such a thing as morality or is it dependent on God?

~Raithere

Raitere,

Does / can morality exist apart from God?

Nothing can exist apart from God.

Cris,

The implication isn’t that knowledge will cause the event, but that the cause is so well defined that perfect knowledge of the result becomes possible.

It is due to the intention, intentions don’t differ as much as the actions used to acquire positive results. The actions are freewill God does not intervene in those unless you ask Him to, which is prayer.
What is it you or I want, why we work in our respective roles?
That is actually quite predictable.

How does a god have such perfect knowledge? It is because he created the environment (the universe) in which the events will occur.

In a sense God doesn’t just have perfect knowledge, He is perfect. It makes complete sense when you understand that.

If I write a computer program and I feed it data that I have defined then I will have perfect knowledge of every result that the program will produce, before the program is ever run. That is omniscience (within this specific scope). If I control all the factors then I cannot help but have perfect knowledge of everything. And in this case all the results are perfectly pre-determined.

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and omniscient and created the universe. Then everything that ever happens is perfectly pre-determined.

Yes I agree, but having a freewill means you can change the course of your pre-destined destiny. If in your program you give the option of freewill, then the subject who adheres can realise that he is only part of a program, then you would have to place within the program information regarding yourself, and your creation.
In effect everything in that program would have emanated from you, so everything is only a part of you.

Love

Jan Ardena.

"Free will's a Bitch" - Pacino in the Devil's Advocate.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cactus Jack
[B]"Free will's a Bitch" - Pacino in the Devil's Advocate.

Excellent film!

It would be for Satan, it was exercising his freewill that made him fall.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Yeah, great acting on Pacino and Reeves' part. I also like the quote that goes something like: "But were destined to lose dad, why should I be on the losing team?" "Look at the source. We'll write a new book, chapter one starting tonight."

Also Keanu's wife (in the movie) also is an example of a fine actor. Her descent into madness is very realistic.

And yeah "free will" is deffinetely a theme in most movies based around Satan, also temptation of course.

Since you seem to know a bit about the bible. Where does it say we have free will to refuse Satan/etc?

Thanx.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cactus Jack
Since you seem to know a bit about the bible.

I probably only know as much as you or less on the bible.


Where does it say we have free will to refuse Satan/etc?


I don't know, but free will means you are free to accept or re