From: http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/cufon5.htm (FOIA Request)

Operation Blue Fly: Operation Blue Fly has been established to facilitate
expeditious delivery to FTD of Moon Dust or other items of great tech-
nical intelligence interest. AFCIN SOP for Blue Fly operations,
February 1960, provides for 1127th participation.

Moon Dust: As a specialized aspect of its over-all material
exploitation program, Headquarters USAF has established Project Moon
Dust to locate, recover and deliver descended foreign space vehicles.
ICGL #4, 25 April 1961, delineates collection responsibilities.

Who needs aliens or UFO's, when you can use the term foreign space vehicles? Something that, according to the space act, we can hide as the NASA administrator see's fit. Or our military needs.

The document below I think sheds great lights on the Military/NASA link in the whole UFO/Objects of unknown origin.

http://www.freedomofinfo.org/foi/Background_MD_BF2.pdf

Doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means, Original space flight didn't use shuttles, astronauts returns usually meant ditching in the sea after gracefully falling to earth via parachute. The accuracy of where they landed wasn't the same as today and nor was it for any other foreign power.

Doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means, Original space flight didn't use shuttles, astronauts returns usually meant ditching in the sea after gracefully falling to earth via parachute. The accuracy of where they landed wasn't the same as today and nor was it for any other foreign power.

Yup, and the Russians do 'hard landings' too, somewhere in Kazakhstan,
'somewhere' being as accurate as it gets. Old Soviet missions required the Astronaut to jump from the module and parachute down by themselves!

On the subject of accurately landing space vehicles, happy anniversary!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/11/newsid_3867000/3867739.stm

Oh look. They defined foreign in the same link:
MOONDUST is a program in which the Air Force provides
technical assistance in determining the origin of space
debris, U.S. or foreign.
foreign = not made in the USA.
Further reading states they employed Russian-speaking linguists - a slight clue, methinks.
They did, however make one technical error: foreign really means non-English. :D

foreign = not made in the USA.
Therefore, extraterrestrial. Stop spreading misinformation.
:p

Well, bickering over those details is not the point. I highly suggest you read the .pdf that I linked too.

Apparently, shedding light on your mis-information is the point. You stated that this meant they were recovering alien spacecraft. Upon skimming the document, it looks like you take a few lines out of context to "prove" your point.

Not.. exactly squeek. In the Kecksburg case, I think the object was recovered from one of these moon-dust/blue-fly operations. It's for this very reason the group was created. Furthermore, due to FOIA docs that have been released, we know that the groups name was changed from moon-dust to something else that's now top-secret. The object from Kecksburg was sent to NASA to determine it's origin. The only thing NASA could come up with is that it had to have been a Soviet sat. Then, proceeded to lose the "fragology files" on the crash and or object. Also, the NASA employee associated with these fragology files cannot be located by NASA.

The biggest problem with the whole Moon Dust thing is that it can be rather complicated. The best thing about it is that due to the work of some researchers and many FOIA requests we know that such a group did exist. Sgt. Clifford Stone, who says he was involved with the group, says they did in fact re-cover objects of unknown origin and they did know them to be of extraterrestrial origin. What I find interesting is how the Kecksburg case seems provide NO answers for skeptics or believers. :bugeye:

When one accepts that there have been hundreds of small craft crash landings all over the earth, the
next question is why all the small craft?

Survival pods?

Not.. exactly squeek. In the Kecksburg case, :

Kecksburg has been debunked. It was easily debunked, the 'evidence' offered having startling scientific and geographic fallacies within it.

Let Kecksburg drop, it's a lie.

When one accepts that there have been hundreds of small craft crash landings all over the earth, the
next question is why all the small craft?

Survival pods?

You assume these craft are extra terrestrial then Norv? You haven't stated what crashed, when, or cited _any_ information about such crashes, but move on to question the origin of something that never happened.

I would venture the origin is your fetid imagination.

Kecksburg has been debunked. It was easily debunked, the 'evidence' offered having startling scientific and geographic fallacies within it.

Let Kecksburg drop, it's a lie.

That's an interesting statement. I'm not sure what you've debunked. NASA/Military has said nothing crashed. Then said something crashed. Now their saying it was a soviet sattelite - something NASA had allready proven it could not have been.

So please, tell me what have you debunked? :bugeye:

So please, tell me what have you debunked? :bugeye:

Check the archives, we already did Kecksburg. There was a 'paper' posted about the incident a year or more ago, which placed the location in the wrong country, and contained a statement from someone who allegedly had a PhD that was totally fallacious, indicating the paper was fiction.

I can't be arsed to go through it again. It's been debunked, let it die.

Really, let it all die. Of course "they" wouldn't want to talk about their crashed little ships all over our planet. Just like "they" don't want to talk about having to wear our clothing, or that "they" that were thrown out of the "heavens" have to rely on us to have technology now. God, that must just bite huh?

Really, let it all die. Of course "they" wouldn't want to talk about their crashed little ships all over our planet. Just like "they" don't want to talk about having to wear our clothing, or that "they" that were thrown out of the "heavens" have to rely on us to have technology now. God, that must just bite huh?
Yep. Life on bxxrr'lbx XVI was so much nicer.

Yep. Life on bxxrr'lbx XVI was so much nicer.

Too bad, so sad, guess you should have stayed where you were.

Hey, you're from bxxrr'lbx XVI? I'm from bxxrr'lbx XV. Hi neighbour!

Don't go acting like you never slaughtered the adorable lllllklloop'rnaz creatures of bxxrr'lbx XVI just to break their skulls and use the fragments as a maracas. I will forever hold a grudge against all bxxrr'lbx XVians for that.

I mean, the eyes! How could you look into those eyes and still use the Quadri-plex matter transphasering hyper deathcannon on them?

I mean, the eyes! How could you look into those eyes and still use the Quadri-plex matter transphasering hyper deathcannon on them?
You know perfectly well why we did that - the Quinti-plex matter transphasering hyper deathcannon were at the dry cleaners.

Losers.

Damn I feel like the poor relative, I lived on bxxrr'lbx XIV, and could only afford to visit bxxrr'lbx XVI on the Holidays.

Check the archives, we already did Kecksburg. There was a 'paper' posted about the incident a year or more ago, which placed the location in the wrong country, and contained a statement from someone who allegedly had a PhD that was totally fallacious, indicating the paper was fiction.

I can't be arsed to go through it again. It's been debunked, let it die.

I'm talking about the OFFICIAL NASA claim that the object was in fact a Russian Satelite. But they've "mislocated" the fragology files associated with the crash.

What I like about this case is there's a FOIA paper trial with a lot of eye-witnesses who saw the "satelite" crash (and crash-LAND). It also puts some guts into the Moondust/Bluefly teams, that were created for nothing more than recovering objects of unknown origin.

I wonder if we can find a MoonDust reference to the Fragology files now lost at Nasa? What was the object they recovered? A Soviet Satellite? Why were there no Russian symbols on the craft? How did the Satellite stay intact during re-entry? How did this satellite CHANGE DIRECTION as it crash - landed? Why can't NASA, or anyone find the files associated with case, let alone this rather amazing Soviet Satellite? Why did NASA (prove) that it could not have been a satellite and then proceed (years later) to say that it was?

It's my hope this case will be the undoing of all the lies.

Sorry Btimsah, but full disclosure about who, what, and why "they" and we are here will only come with "those out there" appear in our skys in very big ships.

VERY BIG ! !

Norval

This NASA disclosure proves we do hide objects of unknown origin. It also proves our military could not determine the origin of the object, so we sent it to NASA to figure it out.

Which means they recovered a UFO.

Then finally, the eye-witness accounts and NASA's own debunking discount the idea that this was a re-entering satellite. Oberg himself has debunked the sat theory.

Skeptics had been saying it was a meteor that burned up on re-entry. Now that's not possible to say anymore. Some skeptics still believe it was.

I know, dudes, this whole NASA thing is, like, SOOO crazy. Why don't they just admit that there is regular transportation available between Glaxon Nine and Earth, via the Pludamaxoniomusimus XxxxxzzzzbzxcxbIr Disk flying buses? It's so mwinlarioing transparent, I just want to famicate in my zipodals. It's freaking molionimus!

Being a native of Mrwwinilanwonoh VIIX, I have to say that you bxxrr'lbx's lost us the Zarkdamned war. We're stuck on this hunk of cheap rock because of your shmaloc-assed politics!

"No, but I don't want to drop huge bombs on the moon! No, I don't want to erradicate Mars! I'm a fleebing chimoo!" hahaha...you radnocmo's make me laugh.

Speaking of which, why is freakin' Norval the only dude to figure all this out? I'm shocked that there has only been one human being on this crappy planet to figure out that there was a full-scale, interplanety nuclear war in prehistory! Like, the freakin' signs are everywhere. It's so obvious, it make the time you bxxrr'lbx's forgot your malgoniwogs at the drycleaner look like protoanamorphiansupermagnificent faster-than-light-travel science!

JD (Known as Der'Bleegledroo Vangunblix back home)

Have you not thought that they sent it to NASA because NASA wanted it back?

I mean just read about the recovery of the "Dome shaped object" in the second link and the "aluminium foil" points. It's know for years the US has been sending rockets and eventually manned missions into space, during the process of getting people up there it required preportions of the rockets to breakoff as the fuel deplete, not all of those parts would have fallen directly back to earth, some would have floated in a decaying orbit around the earth with the eventual occurance of falling back down.

Obviously if thats the case then you can't say when or where those parts would land and obviously since they were US made and funded I'm sure they wanted them returned rather than being reverse engineered.

As for the where abouts of 50 year old documentation, Well it might be law to declassify after 50 years, but wheres the law to say adminstration has to keep the documents that long? I know in the UK businesses are suppose to keep accounts records for about 3 years incase they are required and people moan about it, I'm sure they would really moan if they had to keep them for 50 years.

You're never going to win, Stryder...these folks already have it in their heads that UFOs are being kept secret, so you cannot convince them otherwise. They aren't looking for this "truth" they speak of; they only search for conformation, and anything that points against their belief will be considered fake, lies, or skeptical nonsense. It's funny, really, but very annoying at the same time.

JD

You're never going to win, Stryder...these folks already have it in their heads that UFOs are being kept secret, so you cannot convince them otherwise. They aren't looking for this "truth" they speak of; they only search for conformation, and anything that points against their belief will be considered fake, lies, or skeptical nonsense. It's funny, really, but very annoying at the same time.

JD

JDawg, try to use your brain. Now follow me here...

The object at Kecksburg was unidentified, YES A UFO, AND SENT TO NASA(To determine it's origin) where it has been hidden for 50-30? years. If that's not hiding a UFO, then nothing is.

We can argue about what the UFO is, but we cannot argue that NASA would not hide them - we know they have. IT'S A FACT NOW.

Have you not thought that they sent it to NASA because NASA wanted it back?

I mean just read about the recovery of the "Dome shaped object" in the second link and the "aluminium foil" points. It's know for years the US has been sending rockets and eventually manned missions into space, during the process of getting people up there it required preportions of the rockets to breakoff as the fuel deplete, not all of those parts would have fallen directly back to earth, some would have floated in a decaying orbit around the earth with the eventual occurance of falling back down.

Obviously if thats the case then you can't say when or where those parts would land and obviously since they were US made and funded I'm sure they wanted them returned rather than being reverse engineered.

As for the where abouts of 50 year old documentation, Well it might be law to declassify after 50 years, but wheres the law to say adminstration has to keep the documents that long? I know in the UK businesses are suppose to keep accounts records for about 3 years incase they are required and people moan about it, I'm sure they would really moan if they had to keep them for 50 years.

#1. The witnesses and track of the object as it crash-landed tells us that the object had some form of control and shifted directions trying to regain control. A re-entering satelite, yes even a magical soviet one, would not have this control.

#2. Witnesses at the scene, and the army could not identify this as a russian satelite. Indeed, NASA had allready ruled out the possibility of it being a sat. James Oberg himself ruled this theory out - mr. debunker himself. The object did not have any russian markings.

#3. For years the military has said this object, was not an object. But NASA is now saying they could only determine it was a Russian satelite. Which, we know from #1 and #2 is not likely.

#4. The documents and materials from the crash, labled as "fragology files" are missing and have been lost. Nobody knows what NASA used in 2006, to determine all of a sudden that we did in fact know what the object was if in fact these files were missing.

The Government has trapped itself in lies. They can't really tell us what the object was, they've allready painted themselves in the corner. So instead of attacking me, or following the "anything but alien" playbook try studying the case. Try reading the testimony. Consider who in this case has been honest, and who has not. COnsider who has something to hide, and what they are hiding. Consider what is realistic, fair and fits with the evidence.

The object at Kecksburg was unidentified, YES A UFO, AND SENT TO NASA(To determine it's origin) where it has been hidden for 50-30? years. If that's not hiding a UFO, then nothing is.

OK, so you're jumping to conclusions. You don't know that it's been hidden anywhere, let alone at NASA, so let's just drop that story right now. Let us stick to the facts. And for once, I might have to take the kook's side on this one. I've done my research here, and I'm quite impressed with the findings. Let's talk, shall we?

In 1965, the official Air Force response to the Kecksburg incident was that the impact was caused by a meteor, and nothing was recovered at the site. However, in 2003, Nicholas L Johnson, the cheif scientist for orbital debris at NASA stated that after checking the orbital paths of known satellites from that time in 1965, there was no possibility that it was a satellite that crashed in Kecksburg. Yet, in 2005, NASA officially stated that it was a Russian satellite bound for Venus that crashed, and not only that, but they had recovered debris from the crash that had scattered along the way. Unfortunately, NASA says the records were lost, except 40 non-descript pages regarding the incident.

OK, so I'm not going to get into the eyewitness testimony here, because I think it's all bullshit, to be honest. There is a construction worker who claims to have hauled bricks to the base in which the craft was located, and somehow, despite needing fucking the highest clearance level to reach the area, he "snuck a peek" at the object...yeah, sure, whatever you say, pal. That, and the people saying that the falling object seemed to have "intelligent control" as it went...I'm sorry, but they are talking out there asses.

What I will say is that this whole fiasco with NASA making two different claims, and the Air Force making another, each contradicting the other in numerous ways, is quite interesting. I won't, however, start in on the whole "lost documents" thing, because shit like that happens all the time; there have been banks that lose their entire client list's personal information...the fact is that people are human, and they make mistakes. Perhaps the damned thing is misfiled somewhere else, or it was accidentally thrown away, or damaged somehow.

Didn't NASA just last week announce that they had lost a shitload of information?

Things like that do NOT in any way equal a cover up.

But I want some answers on this. I want to know why the Air Force first said in 1965 that it was a meteor, and then NASA in 2005 said it was a Russian satellite that they recovered pieces of, only to say two years before that that it was not possible to be a satellite of any kind. These things need to be answered.

But I imagine that it has more to do with incompetence and lack of leadership than a cover up.

The biggest question of all this is why the fuck would they cover it up? This is NASA, the guys and gals who are exploring the cosmos. They would kill for the opportunity to find a friggin UFO! If they had alien technology in their hands, they would tell us. Otherwise, why the hell are they out there on Mars looking for water and life and stuff like that if they're just going to keep it to themselves? It does not make any sense, and you can't argue around that.

JD

Government officials have
a) a natural tendency to be secretive
b) an natural tendency to cover up incompetence
c) some have an above average tendency to be incompetent

You don't require anything more than these three things to explain all the lies, dishonesty and manipulation. I find human mendacity and mediocrity(proven qualities) a more persuasive an explanation than alien visitations.

I agree. The thing is that this might be the UFO Believer's best case. The official explanation for Roswell is easy to accept once you get past the hearsay and rumor that circulates the internet at Sci-Fi channel, but Kecksburg is truly a myriad of contradictions. Astronomers who give half-assed findings that don't take into account margin for error (friggin Canadians), and the two government agencies giving three different answers on the subject.

Granted, the Air Force in 1965 was not the same as it is today, but the fact remains that they made an official statement that was completely refuted by NASA in 2005. And to top that off, thier lead orbital debris scientist refuted that claim two years before they even made it. So, I won't say that this scientist wasn't wrong, or that something else might have been a factor here, but a scientist at NASA is going to get the benefit of the doubt in my book. And to hear NASA just blatantly disregard his findings two years later without any explanation of it...well, it just sounds fishy, man.

I agree with you, though, and find that to be the most likely scenario. But at the same time, I'd really like some answers here.

Joe

OK, so you're jumping to conclusions. You don't know that it's been hidden anywhere, let alone at NASA, so let's just drop that story right now. Let us stick to the facts. And for once, I might have to take the kook's side on this one. I've done my research here, and I'm quite impressed with the findings. Let's talk, shall we?

In 1965, the official Air Force response to the Kecksburg incident was that the impact was caused by a meteor, and nothing was recovered at the site. However, in 2003, Nicholas L Johnson, the cheif scientist for orbital debris at NASA stated that after checking the orbital paths of known satellites from that time in 1965, there was no possibility that it was a satellite that crashed in Kecksburg. Yet, in 2005, NASA officially stated that it was a Russian satellite bound for Venus that crashed, and not only that, but they had recovered debris from the crash that had scattered along the way. Unfortunately, NASA says the records were lost, except 40 non-descript pages regarding the incident.

OK, so I'm not going to get into the eyewitness testimony here, because I think it's all bullshit, to be honest. There is a construction worker who claims to have hauled bricks to the base in which the craft was located, and somehow, despite needing fucking the highest clearance level to reach the area, he "snuck a peek" at the object...yeah, sure, whatever you say, pal. That, and the people saying that the falling object seemed to have "intelligent control" as it went...I'm sorry, but they are talking out there asses.

What I will say is that this whole fiasco with NASA making two different claims, and the Air Force making another, each contradicting the other in numerous ways, is quite interesting. I won't, however, start in on the whole "lost documents" thing, because shit like that happens all the time; there have been banks that lose their entire client list's personal information...the fact is that people are human, and they make mistakes. Perhaps the damned thing is misfiled somewhere else, or it was accidentally thrown away, or damaged somehow.

Didn't NASA just last week announce that they had lost a shitload of information?

Things like that do NOT in any way equal a cover up.

But I want some answers on this. I want to know why the Air Force first said in 1965 that it was a meteor, and then NASA in 2005 said it was a Russian satellite that they recovered pieces of, only to say two years before that that it was not possible to be a satellite of any kind. These things need to be answered.

But I imagine that it has more to do with incompetence and lack of leadership than a cover up.

The biggest question of all this is why the fuck would they cover it up? This is NASA, the guys and gals who are exploring the cosmos. They would kill for the opportunity to find a friggin UFO! If they had alien technology in their hands, they would tell us. Otherwise, why the hell are they out there on Mars looking for water and life and stuff like that if they're just going to keep it to themselves? It does not make any sense, and you can't argue around that.

JD

You don't need to ask if they have covered it up. We know they have factually covered it up, and in my past investigations I've proven that NASA does work with our miltiary to hide sensitive information.

It's also important to understand this - The United States still says no military presense was deployed to Kecksburg that night and that nothing was recovered. NASA, just a year ago said "oh yeah that was a russian satelite" - in response to a FOIA request.

I have a feeling this is going to be the case which will prove NASA has studied crashed objects that are of unknown origin. I also believe that some of those (rare) objects were of ALIEN origin. It's my hope, this case will prove that. The sad twist is those working at NASA probably would deep down love the same thing.

Government officials have
a) a natural tendency to be secretive
b) an natural tendency to cover up incompetence
c) some have an above average tendency to be incompetent

You don't require anything more than these three things to explain all the lies, dishonesty and manipulation. I find human mendacity and mediocrity(proven qualities) a more persuasive an explanation than alien visitations.

I agree with A) - secretive, and in this case that's certainly the case. If you wish to play the mundane claims win the day then fine. As for me, I see something a little bit more important here.

I might also add that NASA just admitted TO THEIR INCOMPETENCE. So which is it?

You don't need to ask if they have covered it up. We know they have factually covered it up, and in my past investigations I've proven that NASA does work with our miltiary to hide sensitive information.

OK, this is where you're losing credibility. You don't know anything. The changing stories seem to involve more incompetence than cover up. But no matter the case, in what "past investigations" did you "prove" that NASA hides sensitive information with the military? How can you just say that and provide no evidence whatsoever? You're full of it. Give me proof. Shouldn't be hard, right? Seeing as you've already done the work, right?

It's also important to understand this - The United States still says no military presense was deployed to Kecksburg that night and that nothing was recovered. NASA, just a year ago said "oh yeah that was a russian satelite" - in response to a FOIA request.

That speaks against your theory that NASA works with government agencies to cover things up, doesn't it? I mean, all NASA did here was tell us that a satellite crashed; they never said one didn't. Yes, one scientist said it wasn't the case, but the official release was that it was in fact a satellite. Now, aside from that, how are you saying they're covering it up? Where do you see that? The lost records? Again, that kind of thing happens all the time.

I think it really is just about the fact that you personally believe aliens are visiting us, and you just will not see it otherwise.

have a feeling this is going to be the case which will prove NASA has studied crashed objects that are of unknown origin. I also believe that some of those (rare) objects were of ALIEN origin. It's my hope, this case will prove that. The sad twist is those working at NASA probably would deep down love the same thing.

Considering NASA just completely contradicted an official Air Force press release, I would venture an educated guess that they don't in any way, shape, or form give two shits about what the military says. If they had an alien aircraft in possession, they'd let us know. They'd be the heros of the world, man. Imagine the funding NASA would recieve? Imagine how good it would look for the United States to be the ones who could make the claim that they were the first to recover a crashed alien vessel, and the first to study alien technology?

Think of this: a Russian satellite crashes in 1965. The US government recovers it, but can't let the Russkie's know that they did. If they let the USSR know that they had their technology, the USSR would be pissed, and during that time in World History, pissing off the USSR was something you tried to avoid. The heat between the two nations was intense, and something like a recovered satellite (or probe headed for Venus...whatever the hell it was supposed to be) would have caused an even bigger rift. The Russians could have made demands to have the thing returned immediately, with which the US would have had to comply. Instead of letting it be known, the US announced that they had found nothing. This way, they could study Soviet technology in secret.

And the Russian's answer? Well, it's embarassing to fail, and especially so when you're in a Space Race. The USSR might have known that the US had their craft, but without official validation, there was nothing they could do but make their own official announcement that they had in fact lost nothing. Saves face, you know?

That is a far more reasonable scenario then the one including crashed alien spacecraft and a massive cover up. Sure, they may have been a cover up, but not in the way you think. It might have been a cover for actual national security, not to hide the most welcome notion of having intelligent, obviously peaceful neighbors in the universe.

JD

Yes, I have seen enough "evidence" which illustrates our military covers up, hides, destroys, lies about UFO's to form MY OWN OPINION on the topic. :D

I've learned long ago the trump card all skeptics have is the most likely claim. Because, let's face it - almost anything is more likely than aliens.

But that really does not get us anywhere, IF THE EVIDENCE WE'D USE TO PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF ALIENS IS HIDDEN. Thus, the importance of this case is not in the aliens - it's in the coverup.

It illustrates why it's ridiculous to request evidence of something that is DEEPLY top secret and hidden. As this case represents. That is, unless you still think this object is a rock.

If my post above does not illustrate the catch-22 UFOologist's find themselves in, then nothing will. :D

Yes, I have seen enough "evidence" which illustrates our military covers up, hides, destroys, lies about UFO's to form MY OWN OPINION on the topic.

Fair enough, btimsah. As long as you are admitting that it is your own personal opinion, then you can go on believing it without me (and others) having to smash you (figuratively) for it. :D

But still...I'd really like to hear what you consider "evidence" on the matter. I mean, it's not nice to tell us all you have this "evidence" and then not to share. Imagine if I had said "I banged Jessica Alba on video!" and then just disappeared from the site? That would SUCK!

I've learned long ago the trump card all skeptics have is the most likely claim. Because, let's face it - almost anything is more likely than aliens

This also is true. But don't forget that skeptics aren't a group of people who are just totally against the notion of aliens. Skeptics don't belong to a club, they don't hold monthly meetings on how they can bury your claims in a snotty manner. They aren't trying to show you up, or a part of a grander scheme to hide ET from the world.

What you said is accurate, and the basis for anyone who is skeptical of alien visitation: Almost anything is more likely than aliens [visiting the planet].

But that really does not get us anywhere, IF THE EVIDENCE WE'D USE TO PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF ALIENS IS HIDDEN. Thus, the importance of this case is not in the aliens - it's in the coverup.

Of course, this is also true. You can't ever prove it if the evidence is hidden. But then again, how do you, or anyone else, know that aliens are here if the evidence is hidden? I mean, it's kind of laughable to think that there is a real claim being made here that this "evidence" is completely hidden and kept away from the public, but at the same time, you all know for a fact this is the case...it's kind of an impossible claim. You can't know it if the thing that would let you know is hidden, right?

But the problem lies in the fact that you are immediately taking this event (for example) and attributing it to aliens. Something falls out of the sky, the Air Force tells us one thing, NASA tells us another years later, and you just jump to the conclusion that it's an alien spacecraft. Rather than, as I pointed out in my last post, taking a good hard look at the situation of the world in those days, and seeing that it's not only possible, but most likely, that the satellite was covered up because we wanted to avoid a confrontation with Soviet Russia involving one of their downed probes.

To make the jump from "downed object" to "alien spacecraft" is just not good science, man.

It illustrates why it's ridiculous to request evidence of something that is DEEPLY top secret and hidden. As this case represents. That is, unless you still think this object is a rock.

While I agree that the FOIA is pretty much a useless thing when the information in question isn't something anyone wants the public to see, but the fact remains that it is useful after the fact; years later, when something once top-secret becomes un-top-secret, it's nice to know that we can go get a copy of it.

And no, I don't think the object is a rock. I believe it is a Russian Satellite, just as NASA said.

JD

I've come to certain conclusions myself based on my very logical an precise mind. If you think of things in the following way you'll have alot easier time dealing with UFO's, Aliens, and the like.

NASA owns an operates based on government regulations an other various sources. It's in essence a private corporation to which no one outside can have access. It also employs many people from various countries, has unique technology, an is able to launch craft into outerspace. So here's my point...

Even if they are covering up UFO's an alien activity what right does anyone have to actually know? I mean I'd love to know an hear more about this from them but it's not their responsibility to share that information should it exist. Now if I could start my own corporation then I'd be entitled to whatever I want, I could learn all about these incidents an it would be my right to know then. However if I'm just not bright or smart enough to figure things out, or do research comparable to that of NASA, well why should they help?

So basically they aren't required to do anything other then what they want, an if I had intelligence enough then I could pretty much figure out an research in the same ways they can, it would just require alot of effort an backing.

NASA owns an operates based on government regulations an other various sources. It's in essence a private corporation to which no one outside can have access.

Not really, dude. NASA stands for National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and was established July 29th, 1958 thanks to the National Aeronautics and Space Act. It is in no way a privately owned or operated entity, as it is funded soley (or at least in the vast majority) by the United States Government. NASA is, in fact, a government agency.

Even if they are covering up UFO's an alien activity what right does anyone have to actually know? I mean I'd love to know an hear more about this from them but it's not their responsibility to share that information should it exist

That's not exactly true, but it's not exactly wrong, either. Depends on the circumstances. For one, NASA has to fight adn claw and scratch to get the funding they both need and deserve. The discovery of an alien species, be it intelligent or otherwise, visiting us or resting safely under the mantle of Mars, would cause immediate jumps in NASA's funding. They would never again need to struggle to get their money, it's that simple. That said, it is an incredible stretch to believe that NASA would assist in a cover up of such a discovery.

On the other hand, if something were to be discovered, and public knowledge of this discovery would threaten national security (like letting the public know that a Russian Satellite crashed in Pennsylvania in 1965) then NASA would be obliged to keep the finding under wraps.

But to say that they have no obligation to disclose something to the people of the United States is not true. Not only is it in their best interest to let the cat out of whatever bag it may be in, all of their funding comes from taxation...meaning that they recieve the taxpayer's money. They owe it to us--as does every other agency in the nation--to disclose whatever information that will not harm us to know.

I could learn all about these incidents an it would be my right to know then. However if I'm just not bright or smart enough to figure things out, or do research comparable to that of NASA, well why should they help?

For someone with such "an precise mind" you sure seem to completely miss the point of NASA. They are in existance to discover. Plain and simple. Be it for military or scholarly uses, the discoveries of NASA are noble because of their effort.

It is widely known today that, aside from trying to restart their human spaceflight program, the top priority of NASA at this point in time is to find out as much as they can about our closest planetary neighbor, Mars. We've sent probes, satellites, rovers...Spending billions of dollars of taxpayer money on what essential boils down to a search for extraterrestrial life. Why would NASA cover up the discovery of the very thing that they're currently searching for? It doesn't make sense that if they've already found the proof of life beyond the planet Earth that they would continue to do research on Mars. But even putting that aside for a moment, do you realize how much easier it would be for NASA to fund these fantastic scientific expeditions if they had something to show the people who they lobby for this funding? It wouldn't take anything more than a NASA scientist walking into Congress with a piece of an alien spacecraft and stating "This is not from the planet Earth," to get the entire nation to throw money at them.

To sum it up:

If aliens have been discovered, be them crashed or just floating around our planet, NASA's research would lay with that aspect of it, not digging holes in rocks on Mars. And if they are to be discovered one day, expect to see it on the front page of every newspaper on the planet, with every major news outlet running 24-hour a day coverage. Discovering intelligent (or not) life around Earth (or on another planet) would be the single greatest discovery in the history of mankind. Forget fire, forget the wheel, finding an intergalactic neighbor would be the greatest testament to the ablility of Man.

if I had intelligence enough then I could pretty much figure out an research in the same ways they can, it would just require alot of effort an backing

You think? That "effort an backing" would include, but not be limited to, the passing of a Congressional Act, and the governmental funding somewhere in the range of 10-13 billion dollars per year.

Good luck to you, though.

JD

J-Dawg, thanks for your response;

You're funny statement about these "sketpics meeting in places" to discuss how their going to debunk UFO crackpots brought a reminder of just such a meeting. Ever heard of Michael Shermer? I think I spelled that right. He and a lot of "scientists, turned skeptics" had just this sort of meeting. In the meeting one gentleman stood up and suggested scientists should refer to the theory of evolution, as the fact of evolution. Many people applauded, and agreed with him. This guy represents the problem with this new subsect of science. An almost dogmatic approach which offends the true scientists. This guy was is so caught up in debate I guess he forgot the theory of evolution, is still just a theory.

As for these other cases with evidence; I suppose one good one would be the Betty and Vicky Cash story. 3 people in Texas are driving when a UFO with intense heat intersects the road their on. They stop and Betty get's out to see what this thing is. They see a diamond shaped craft being followed by numerous army helicopters. All 3 suffer from radiation poisening, and Betty was the one who got the closest to the object and suffered from extremely high doses of radiation from this object - had welts and severe burns to her face and arms. Other witnesses in the rural area verify the object was seen AND followed by numerous helicopters. The burn spot on the road was verified before the patch of road was pulled up and replaced.

Anyways, the army said no we were not in the area. No helicopters were in the area and we don't know what this object was. I think we women are now deceased. :(

You're funny statement about these "sketpics meeting in places" to discuss how their going to debunk UFO crackpots brought a reminder of just such a meeting

Well, while it is theory, evolution has tons of supporting evidence. Yes, it may remain a theory forever, simply because there might not be a real way to absolutely prove it, but that doesnt' change the fact that it's the single best explanation. This man obviously is passionate about his belief, and has unfortunately forgotten that science doesn't work that way; there are still a few holes in the theory, and they might be there forever. You can't just decide to make it a science fact, you have to prove it.

But don't worry. Just because these guys were scientists doesn't put them in any position of power. Evolution is still a theory; they haven't changed anything. They're probably considered whackos by their peers, just like UFO believers are considered whackos by everyone else...and with good reason.

As for these other cases with evidence; I suppose one good one would be the Betty and Vicky Cash story.

OK, interesting story. I did some research, and I'll be honest: I don't know what the hell that thing was supposed to be. There seems to be some independant eyewitness testimony which supports the claims of both the UFO and the helicopters, but still...

Here's my problem, btimsah: The immediate jump from the object being a UFO to being an alien spacecraft. How do you get there? How do you get from "What the hell was that thing?" to "That was an alien spaceship!"? How do you get there, man?

How do you know the thing wasn't a secret US aircraft? How do you know it wasn't a secret foreign aircraft, for that matter?

I'm willing to say that if this story is true (which there is nothing to say that it is for sure) there still remains nothing to make the conclusion that this UFO was extraterrestrial. No matter what happens--if the cover ups are true, if disinformation does happen, if Area 51 did in fact deal with secret technology--it doesn't change the fact that there is a very reasonable, if yet-unknown, explanation for all of this.

Roswell was a weather balloon. Kecksburg was a Russian satellite. This case? Who knows? But I'm willing to bet that it wasn't an alien spacecraft.

It's as easy as that.

JD

Well, while it is theory, evolution has tons of supporting evidence. Yes, it may remain a theory forever, simply because there might not be a real way to absolutely prove it, but that doesnt' change the fact that it's the single best explanation. This man obviously is passionate about his belief, and has unfortunately forgotten that science doesn't work that way; there are still a few holes in the theory, and they might be there forever. You can't just decide to make it a science fact, you have to prove it.

But don't worry. Just because these guys were scientists doesn't put them in any position of power. Evolution is still a theory; they haven't changed anything. They're probably considered whackos by their peers, just like UFO believers are considered whackos by everyone else...and with good reason.

OK, interesting story. I did some research, and I'll be honest: I don't know what the hell that thing was supposed to be. There seems to be some independant eyewitness testimony which supports the claims of both the UFO and the helicopters, but still...

Here's my problem, btimsah: The immediate jump from the object being a UFO to being an alien spacecraft. How do you get there? How do you get from "What the hell was that thing?" to "That was an alien spaceship!"? How do you get there, man?

How do you know the thing wasn't a secret US aircraft? How do you know it wasn't a secret foreign aircraft, for that matter?

I'm willing to say that if this story is true (which there is nothing to say that it is for sure) there still remains nothing to make the conclusion that this UFO was extraterrestrial. No matter what happens--if the cover ups are true, if disinformation does happen, if Area 51 did in fact deal with secret technology--it doesn't change the fact that there is a very reasonable, if yet-unknown, explanation for all of this.

Roswell was a weather balloon. Kecksburg was a Russian satellite. This case? Who knows? But I'm willing to bet that it wasn't an alien spacecraft.

It's as easy as that.

JD

If Roswell was the Mogul weather balloon then why all the secrecy and fake stories? Don't say because it was top secret - because days earlier the Mogul balloon was photographed and written about in a local newspaper and nobody really cared about it. Furthermore, the debris field was much too large for a balloon. Many people were told not to talk about it, and threatened one station with it's license by the FCC - afterward, went with the "weather balloon story". Military witnesses involved in the cover-up still say it was ET's that were recovered. I could go on and on, because the balloon story is just bunk and has been completely de-bunked. As for the Betty Cash story - The 3 tried to charge the government (to get money for their medical bills primarily) because they still thought it was our object. The airforce has always said that they were no in the area that night and that the helicopters reported by them and other witnesses were not ours. Their doctor has said he knows they suffered radiation poisening and he needed to know what kind of radiation they were exposed too, but that's something that will never happen.

So, if this object was ours and almost killed these 3 people then it's an even worse story for our so-called democracy. I have no idea what this object was. I don't know if it was an ET driving it - however I can theorize. I'm using this case to illustrate the method of the coverup, as well as the typical circumstances that always seem to follow them.

I'm glad we brought up evolution. Maybe I should refer to my belief as the Theory of ETI? :D

If Roswell was the Mogul weather balloon then why all the secrecy and fake stories? Don't say because it was top secret - because days earlier the Mogul balloon was photographed and written about in a local newspaper and nobody really cared about it.

Well, I don't deny that it might possibly have not been a weather balloon. It might have been something else, perhaps a top-secret somethingorother that the Air Force didn't want us to know about.

I don't claim to know what happened. I wasn't there. The official release was that it was a flying saucer, but within an hour, that changed. Perhaps some miscommunication took place. Maybe they got it wrong. Whatever the case is, the fact that the US Air Force first reported that it was a flying saucer speaks to me that they aren't trying to hide a damned thing.

My best guess is that they looked at the debris, and listened to Brazell's statement, and said "Yeah, sure, it's a flying saucer." They reported it, and the press release went out. Even if they had collected it, there is nothing to say that anyone on the scene would have a clue as to what either of the objects (a secret technology/flying saucer) would really look like up close. You have to remember that this was 1947, not 2006. Today, if a saucer landed in our backyard, we'd know what it was, simply because we've been flooded with a million possibilities as to what an alien craft might look like. Back then, nobody had any idea. It would have been easier to confuse a flying saucer with a balloon or something else back then than today.

And for the record...if an F-117 Nighthawk, or a B-2 Spirit landed in your yard 10 years ago, you might think it was an alien spacecraft. There were how many UFO reports based on the F-117?

Furthermore, the debris field was much too large for a balloon

Bogus. The reported size of the "flying saucer" was about 25 feet in diameter, as was the size of the balloon. I have yet to read an argument that states that fact, including from Mac Brazell himself. All he said was that it didn't look like a weather balloon, not that there was too much debris for it to be one.

Many people were told not to talk about it, and threatened one station with it's license by the FCC - afterward, went with the "weather balloon story".

Did you ever consider that perhaps once the RAAF realized that it was not a flying saucer that they tried to stop the wrong story from spreading? I mean, if they figured out that they had something else rather than an alien craft, why would it not be in everyone's best interest to nip the gossip in the bud? Wouldn't that make sense?

Military witnesses involved in the cover-up still say it was ET's that were recovered

Wrong. Jessie Marcel spilled a story to the National Enquirer in 1980, two years after the publication realized that there was a renewed interest in the story. His testimony is the only one that bears any credibility--seeing as he was there, and all--but this was also 33 years after the fact, and, dude, it was the National Friggin' Enquirer. They've claimed Elvis and his alien wife birthed a set of hybrid triplets. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. It's a rag paper and just because they managed to get an old Jessie Marcel to say something to the effect of "I think there was a cover-up" does not mean it was true. Also, seeing as Marcel was the head of the Counterintelligence Corps, don't you think he might have had an inside track on information such as this? But the best he can offer is an opinion, an old, senile opinion 33 years removed from the incident. I'm sorry, but if Marcel had any credibility to his story, he would have had some solid facts.

I could go on and on, because the balloon story is just bunk and has been completely de-bunked

That is a lie. The Mogul story is the result of a 1995 investigation, and has not been "debunked" in any way shape or form. The believers will just toss it aside, saying that Brazell didn't think it was a balloon, but that's their entire basis for dismissal.

You need to face facts: The government made an error, then the corrected it, and they even investigated it later and made two reports on the incident. Unless that fucking report had "Yes, it was a UFO with five aliens in it" you were NOT going to believe it, and simply say "No, they're just covering it up."

NOTHING that the government says will please you. You will ignore every evidence, every official press release, every single fact of the case so long as it contradicts the idea that an UFO crashed in Roswell in 1947. That makes you a close-minded idiot, my friend. You are blind to any possibility other than your own personal belief. That is very sad, and entirely annoying.

This UFO thing is your religion, pal. You're no better than someone who follows God blindly.

I'm using this case to illustrate the method of the coverup, as well as the typical circumstances that always seem to follow them.

Yeah, I know what you're doing. And it still doesn't work. You just immediately assume that every cover up is with malicious intent, and deals with ET. It's fucking laughable. You don't ever look at the real world, pal. You don't cosider political climate, or other factors for which the government would keep something a secret, if they're doing it at all. National Security is a real issue, and if the government doesn't want something getting out, then I trust them, and it doesn't mean it has a damned thing to do with UFOs! There are REAL threats, and were real threats in those days. Mogul was a top-secret program--there was no front page story and picture about it days before, get that shit out of your head--and if they didn't want one of their enemies to hear about it, they had to hide it. That could be where the weather balloon came from. Hell, maybe they said "Yeah, let's go with the flying saucer story" as their cover up for the real thing!

Back then, UFOs weren't as hot a topic as they are today. The Mogul thing might have crashed, and with the recent reports of flying saucers, perhaps they saw it as a viable means to keep their project a secret. Once the pentagon got flooded with calls, the government was caught with their pants down, because they didn't REALLY have a crashed flying disk, so they changed the story. Why is something like THAT so hard to believe, but the idea of an intelligent race flying from another galaxy (only to somehow crash...) is just fine by you? C'mon, man...join us in the real world.

Well, I don't deny that it might possibly have not been a weather balloon. It might have been something else, perhaps a top-secret somethingorother that the Air Force didn't want us to know about.

I don't claim to know what happened. I wasn't there. The official release was that it was a flying saucer, but within an hour, that changed. Perhaps some miscommunication took place. Maybe they got it wrong. Whatever the case is, the fact that the US Air Force first reported that it was a flying saucer speaks to me that they aren't trying to hide a damned thing.

Wrong: The testimony from multiple witnesses involved in the Roswell case directly report the military trying to push the weather balloon story. I find it fascinating how you seem to be saying, the Mogul balloon was so top secret, they hid that - YET HERE THEY WERE CHANGING THE STORY TO A WEATHER BALLOON. :eek: Wtf? And you say I'm the one not in reality?

My best guess is that they looked at the debris, and listened to Brazell's statement, and said "Yeah, sure, it's a flying saucer." They reported it, and the press release went out. Even if they had collected it, there is nothing to say that anyone on the scene would have a clue as to what either of the objects (a secret technology/flying saucer) would really look like up close. You have to remember that this was 1947, not 2006. Today, if a saucer landed in our backyard, we'd know what it was, simply because we've been flooded with a million possibilities as to what an alien craft might look like. Back then, nobody had any idea. It would have been easier to confuse a flying saucer with a balloon or something else back then than today.

And for the record...if an F-117 Nighthawk, or a B-2 Spirit landed in your yard 10 years ago, you might think it was an alien spacecraft. There were how many UFO reports based on the F-117?

You seem to be suggesting they could have been incorrect when they said it was a flying disk. Perhaps, but at this point it's hard to know what the REAL truth is, because whatever that real truth is - it's being covered up.

Bogus. The reported size of the "flying saucer" was about 25 feet in diameter, as was the size of the balloon. I have yet to read an argument that states that fact, including from Mac Brazell himself. All he said was that it didn't look like a weather balloon, not that there was too much debris for it to be one.

He said the debris covered too much area to be a weather balloon. Further analysis done (Check Stanton Friendmans website) has proven that the Mogul balloon could not have accounted for the amount of debris recovered. Because - well basically because it had nothing to do with mogul.

Did you ever consider that perhaps once the RAAF realized that it was not a flying saucer that they tried to stop the wrong story from spreading? I mean, if they figured out that they had something else rather than an alien craft, why would it not be in everyone's best interest to nip the gossip in the bud? Wouldn't that make sense?

You have it backwards, given all the fact's and testimony from the case, the balloon story does not make any sense. It's fascinating how in both the Kecksburg and now the Roswell case, the explanation is both instances is stupidity. Just a dumb mistake, for in some cases, high ranking officials. :) The idea that Marcel could not have identified this as a weather balloon or something of our own is not likely. Therefore, DEBUNKED.

Wrong. Jessie Marcel spilled a story to the National Enquirer in 1980, two years after the publication realized that there was a renewed interest in the story. His testimony is the only one that bears any credibility--seeing as he was there, and all--but this was also 33 years after the fact, and, dude, it was the National Friggin' Enquirer. They've claimed Elvis and his alien wife birthed a set of hybrid triplets. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. It's a rag paper and just because they managed to get an old Jessie Marcel to say something to the effect of "I think there was a cover-up" does not mean it was true. Also, seeing as Marcel was the head of the Counterintelligence Corps, don't you think he might have had an inside track on information such as this? But the best he can offer is an opinion, an old, senile opinion 33 years removed from the incident. I'm sorry, but if Marcel had any credibility to his story, he would have had some solid facts.

Everything you wrote above is not a lie, it's ignorant and ignorantly mallicious against Marcell. I know he does not help your case, so your just attacking him but that only makes your argument weaker. It shows you have no substance, other than to selectively tear down the witnesses as opposed to his story. He's told numerous other magazines, reporters and researchers the same story, yet you go and pick out the most "laughable" one you can find and then pounce as though you found something? This is pathetic..

That is a lie. The Mogul story is the result of a 1995 investigation, and has not been "debunked" in any way shape or form. The believers will just toss it aside, saying that Brazell didn't think it was a balloon, but that's their entire basis for dismissal.

I will toss it aside, because it does not match the facts and testimony we've gotten from the case. Which, if you think Brazell is the only witness I could see why you find it laughable.

You need to face facts: The government made an error, then the corrected it, and they even investigated it later and made two reports on the incident. Unless that fucking report had "Yes, it was a UFO with five aliens in it" you were NOT going to believe it, and simply say "No, they're just covering it up."

I like how you just made this fact up on your on. Where's your proof or documentation? Are you sure your not a ufologist? :D

NOTHING that the government says will please you. You will ignore every evidence, every official press release, every single fact of the case so long as it contradicts the idea that an UFO crashed in Roswell in 1947. That makes you a close-minded idiot, my friend. You are blind to any possibility other than your own personal belief. That is very sad, and entirely annoying.

This UFO thing is your religion, pal. You're no better than someone who follows God blindly.

lol - okay. I guess I'm as nuts as Marcel. (haha)

There was no front page story and picture about it days before, get that shit out of your head--and if they didn't want one of their enemies to hear about it, they had to hide it. That could be where the weather balloon came from. Hell, maybe they said "Yeah, let's go with the flying saucer story" as their cover up for the real thing!

JDawg, you are a terrible sketpic. But to be fair, I was wrong. The NATIONAL PRESS RELEASE involving a story on the mogul weather balloon was done DAYS AFTER the Roswell crash. - That's from one of the foremost DEBUNKERS ON THE MJ-12 Documents, Kevin Randall.

Boy, that thing was so top secret.. As for "what I'm doing". I'm pissing you off because you have not really studied this entire case. You've only tried to "debunk the case" so you only have that knowlege in your head, so you can't really debate it.

Wrong: The testimony from multiple witnesses involved in the Roswell case directly report the military trying to push the weather balloon story

Finish reading my post before you blast me. I'm just giving theories here.

You seem to be suggesting they could have been incorrect when they said it was a flying disk. Perhaps, but at this point it's hard to know what the REAL truth is, because whatever that real truth is - it's being covered up.

It's funny you say that, because you claim to already know the real truth. And secondly, how the fuck do you know it's covered up? Man, always jumping to conclusions. Just because they took back the original statement, you figure it's a big conspiricy to hide the existance of aliens from us. Yep, their hiding it, which is why we're spending billions of dollars a year at NASA searching for extraterrestrial life...but yeah, we're totally hiding it.

He said the debris covered too much area to be a weather balloon.

Yep. I'm sure he's a real expert in the field. He had collected two weather balloons previously, and now all of a sudden he's a pro. Couldn't have been a DIFFERENT KIND of weather balloon. Nope. It HAS to be an alien spacecraft.

both the Kecksburg and now the Roswell case, the explanation is both instances is stupidity.

Why not? There were decades between these two events, with different people involved. Is there no chance for error? Oh, no, that's right, our governmental officials are robots built for the sole purpose of making shit up. Yep. Lieing machines.

The idea that Marcel could not have identified this as a weather balloon or something of our own is not likely. Therefore, DEBUNKED.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! So "not likely" equals "debunked"? So in that case, the idea that the Roswell incident included an extraterrestrial spacecraft is also debunked, using your logic. Because it is unlikely that an alien spacecraft crashed. Wow. That was easy.

Roswell DEBUNKED.

Everything you wrote above is not a lie, it's ignorant and ignorantly mallicious against Marcell. I know he does not help your case, so your just attacking him but that only makes your argument weaker. It shows you have no substance, other than to selectively tear down the witnesses as opposed to his story. He's told numerous other magazines, reporters and researchers the same story, yet you go and pick out the most "laughable" one you can find and then pounce as though you found something? This is pathetic..

No. What I am doing is stating a fact. Marcel was more than 3 decades removed from the incident, and more than 3 decades older. Age does things to the human mind in many cases, but let's not even make that the reasoning here...let's just look at the fact that Jessie Marcel was a human being. Human beings lie. They make stuff up. They do it for reasons that sometimes don't even make sense, thanks to the process of abstract thought which provided us an advantage over Neanderthals. Money, fame, who knows? Old age? Sure. There are a million reasons why Jessie Marcel could have made the story up. And to me it sounds fishy that he chose the absolute biggest piece of bullshit magazine in American culture to report it to. The National Enquirer is a tabloid that reports utter nonsense, and what do you know? That's where Marcel's story broke.

I don't believe him for a second. 33 years later he decides to talk? No way. Why not immediately? Or following his retirement?

And again, not to sound repetetive, but he didn't provide any other remarkable information other than "I think there was a cover-up." You have to stop looking at the trees, and start looking at the forrest to understand, I guess: Marcel was the Counterintelligence Corps leader. He was the man in that department, so to speak. How did he not have anything else to offer, or at least something solid besides an opinion? Why could he have not said "We had this, I know it, and we had that, I know it, and the meeting went like this...(because you know any meeting involving the matter would have included him)..." but he didnt'. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. Too much time between the incident and the story, and too many reasons for him to lie.

I will toss it aside, because it does not match the facts and testimony we've gotten from the case. Which, if you think Brazell is the only witness I could see why you find it laughable.

The facts? You ignore the facts. The fact is that the RAAF pulled their story and gave us the real story. You just won't believe that becuase you have some preconcieved notion that they're lying. The problem lies within you, not the government; you have built a mistrust thanks to sensationalistic reporting on television, which is really only done for ratings, not for scientific value. Thanks to that, you refuse to believe.

I like how you just made this fact up on your on. Where's your proof or documentation? Are you sure your not a ufologist?

Didn't make it up. Just another theory. And a REASONABLE theory, unlike the idea that a fucking UFO crashed in Roswell.

lol - okay. I guess I'm as nuts as Marcel. (haha)

Not saying he's nuts, but don't you ever consider that it's a possibility? I mean, could he not have lost a little mental capacity over the years? No? Senility is another governmental hoax? I see...

JDawg, you are a terrible sketpic. But to be fair, I was wrong. The NATIONAL PRESS RELEASE involving a story on the mogul weather balloon was done DAYS AFTER the Roswell crash. - That's from one of the foremost DEBUNKERS ON THE MJ-12 Documents, Kevin Randall.

OK, so here's what happens: They report erroniously, then correct it once they figure the damned thing out. To ease the minds of the people, they even release a story about the actual cause of the uproar. They lay it out for the American people; "Here you go guys, sorry about the misunderstanding". And you know what? It was OK with the people! The story was all but forgotten for 30 friggin' years, until some ratings-grabbing television show decided to bring it up again, probably during sweeps week. Then, all of a sudden, when the iron was hot, Marcel's story comes out.

Years later, under political pressure, there is yet ANOTHER investigation.

We'll pause the tape here.

Now, let's just say that the fucking this was a UFO from Venus or something...now, the government in place during the time of the incident is all either dead or retired, and here is this great opportunity to tell the truth. Here is the chance for the truth to come out and all the minds to be eased. There would be no political consequence, no power moves to hold down the people blowing the lid off this huge cover up. Here is our moment, humanity's moment to finally learn what the hell happened at Roswell.

But again, the result of the investigation comes up with normal explanations for the incident.

Are we satsified? No way! Why? Because it goes against everything these whackjobs and screwballs have been told to believe by the sensationalistic media and the internet! So normal people--the people who use reason and common sense, and empirical fact and evidence to make their claims--are finally satisfied. But not you guys. NOTHING EXCEPT HEARING THAT ALIENS CRASHED ON EARTH will satisfy you. Face it, admit it, own it. There would be nothing that the government could provide you that would make you believe otherwise. Nothing.

Now, being this "terrible skeptic" that you claim I am, if the government came out tomarrow and said "Yeah, well, we were full of shit," then you know what? I'd belive them. I'd say "well, damned if I wasn't dead wrong this whole time" and be done with it.

And the last point is, why would they cover it up? We spend billions of dollars on our space program, and we could milk the American people for billions more if we could show proof of alien visitation. Could you imagine the money the government would rake in? Even the crooked fucks could cash in! They could start bogus programs, bogus fundraising, whatever! And I still think it is absolutely insane to think that the American government would cover up the very thing they're spending billions of dollars a year looking for!

The bottom line is that you and your kind are single-minded. If the Air Force were to take you on a tour of every secret military base in the nation, showing you every damned thing there was to see regarding the incident, and proved to you that it was a terrestrial object, you'd still come out and say that they just hid the good stuff! That's EXACTLY your problem, and you know it.

JD

Finish reading my post before you blast me. I'm just giving theories here. Oh, I thought I needed wake up to your "facts"? I guess they were theories after all. Oh well.. You'll have to forgive me. Your long paragraphs and contradictions make it difficult to understand exactly what your point is.

It's funny you say that, because you claim to already know the real truth. And secondly, how the fuck do you know it's covered up? Man, always jumping to conclusions. Just because they took back the original statement, you figure it's a big conspiricy to hide the existance of aliens from us. Yep, their hiding it, which is why we're spending billions of dollars a year at NASA searching for extraterrestrial life...but yeah, we're totally hiding it.

Well, I gather you think they were hiding something. Right? So, are you also jumping to that same conclusion? Granted, we may think they are hiding something different.. But a "conspiracy" is a conspiracy. Even if it's top secret. The reason I follow the ET hypothesis is because given the evidence in the case, it's the only find that fits. It's the only hypothesis which makes sense of the deep security threat, along with the testimony. The others do not. It's also important to understand that after Kecksburg, WE KNOW our military will lie. So, I find it amazing you trust them more than the eye witnesses. Why do debunking skeptics always trust a military which is prone to secrecy to tell us the truth over witnesses? Yet another strange way of thinking in the mind of a skeptic.

Yep. I'm sure he's a real expert in the field. He had collected two weather balloons previously, and now all of a sudden he's a pro. Couldn't have been a DIFFERENT KIND of weather balloon. Nope. It HAS to be an alien spacecraft.

Well, actually the rancher who recovered the flying disk HAD RECOVERED SEVERAL BALLOONS BEFORE OUT THERE. He was familiar with them. Furthermore, Marcel was also familiar with them.

Why not? There were decades between these two events, with different people involved. Is there no chance for error? Oh, no, that's right, our governmental officials are robots built for the sole purpose of making shit up. Yep. Lieing machines.

Okay, answer me this. What mistake did they make? (In this case, not the other one your trying to debunk). :)

HAHAHAHAHAHA! So "not likely" equals "debunked"? So in that case, the idea that the Roswell incident included an extraterrestrial spacecraft is also debunked, using your logic. Because it is unlikely that an alien spacecraft crashed. Wow. That was easy.

Roswell DEBUNKED.

This is where the importance of the Kecksburg case comes in. It illustrates we have hidden "UFO's" before and lied about them. Thus, the alien spacecraft hypothesis is only unlikely because of what could have been potentially covered up.

It's important too understand that when you investigate, you can't just stop at the military explanation for everything. You can dig further. Especially when you have so many cases which all have a very similar story line and theme. Involving the same cover-up, of the same thing.

No. What I am doing is stating a fact. Marcel was more than 3 decades removed from the incident, and more than 3 decades older. Age does things to the human mind in many cases, but let's not even make that the reasoning here...let's just look at the fact that Jessie Marcel was a human being. Human beings lie. They make stuff up. They do it for reasons that sometimes don't even make sense, thanks to the process of abstract thought which provided us an advantage over Neanderthals. Money, fame, who knows? Old age? Sure. There are a million reasons why Jessie Marcel could have made the story up. And to me it sounds fishy that he chose the absolute biggest piece of bullshit magazine in American culture to report it to. The National Enquirer is a tabloid that reports utter nonsense, and what do you know? That's where Marcel's story broke.

Wow! Jessie Marcel's story is corroberated by his son, among other witnesses. He's been consistant and has not once been called dishonest. His son is still telling the damn story today. Furthermore, I find it AMAZING that you still consider the governments explanation more believable than his. We've just established the fact that the military is dishonest when dealing with UFO's and yet you still think the military is more honest than him. You really must not understand the term "honest". Remember how their prone to secrecy?

I don't believe him for a second. 33 years later he decides to talk? No way. Why not immediately? Or following his retirement?

Given the military's tendency to coverup hidden/test objects, why do you trust their story over his?

And again, not to sound repetetive, but he didn't provide any other remarkable information other than "I think there was a cover-up." You have to stop looking at the trees, and start looking at the forrest to understand, I guess: Marcel was the Counterintelligence Corps leader. He was the man in that department, so to speak. How did he not have anything else to offer, or at least something solid besides an opinion? Why could he have not said "We had this, I know it, and we had that, I know it, and the meeting went like this...(because you know any meeting involving the matter would have included him)..." but he didnt'. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. Too much time between the incident and the story, and too many reasons for him to lie.

I could not really translate any of that above. It would appear you are in the process of convincing yourself he's lying. So you just start typing b.s. That's some high quality evidence you have that he's lying. :o

The facts? You ignore the facts. The fact is that the RAAF pulled their story and gave us the real story. You just won't believe that becuase you have some preconcieved notion that they're lying. The problem lies within you, not the government; you have built a mistrust thanks to sensationalistic reporting on television, which is really only done for ratings, not for scientific value. Thanks to that, you refuse to believe.

Those are the governments facts. The witnesses have been proven to be more honest and trustworthy than our military involving this case. Maybe one day you will understand this. Untill then you will always be way out there.

Didn't make it up. Just another theory. And a REASONABLE theory, unlike the idea that a fucking UFO crashed in Roswell.

Not saying he's nuts, but don't you ever consider that it's a possibility? I mean, could he not have lost a little mental capacity over the years? No? Senility is another governmental hoax? I see...

I don't think anyone in the Roswell case is nuts. At least I've seen nobody suggest that. There's no reason to assume he's crazy. You seem to think I need provide evidence he's not crazy. Give me a lifetime and maybe I'll do that. :rolleyes: Wow. Is that what skeptics call proving a negative?

OK, so here's what happens: They report erroniously, then correct it once they figure the damned thing out. To ease the minds of the people, they even release a story about the actual cause of the uproar. They lay it out for the American people; "Here you go guys, sorry about the misunderstanding". And you know what? It was OK with the people! The story was all but forgotten for 30 friggin' years, until some ratings-grabbing television show decided to bring it up again, probably during sweeps week. Then, all of a sudden, when the iron was hot, Marcel's story comes out.

Years later, under political pressure, there is yet ANOTHER investigation.

We'll pause the tape here.

Now, let's just say that the fucking this was a UFO from Venus or something...now, the government in place during the time of the incident is all either dead or retired, and here is this great opportunity to tell the truth. Here is the chance for the truth to come out and all the minds to be eased. There would be no political consequence, no power moves to hold down the people blowing the lid off this huge cover up. Here is our moment, humanity's moment to finally learn what the hell happened at Roswell.

But again, the result of the investigation comes up with normal explanations for the incident.

Are we satsified? No way! Why? Because it goes against everything these whackjobs and screwballs have been told to believe by the sensationalistic media and the internet! So normal people--the people who use reason and common sense, and empirical fact and evidence to make their claims--are finally satisfied. But not you guys. NOTHING EXCEPT HEARING THAT ALIENS CRASHED ON EARTH will satisfy you. Face it, admit it, own it. There would be nothing that the government could provide you that would make you believe otherwise. Nothing.

Now, being this "terrible skeptic" that you claim I am, if the government came out tomarrow and said "Yeah, well, we were full of shit," then you know what? I'd belive them. I'd say "well, damned if I wasn't dead wrong this whole time" and be done with it.

And the last point is, why would they cover it up? We spend billions of dollars on our space program, and we could milk the American people for billions more if we could show proof of alien visitation. Could you imagine the money the government would rake in? Even the crooked fucks could cash in! They could start bogus programs, bogus fundraising, whatever! And I still think it is absolutely insane to think that the American government would cover up the very thing they're spending billions of dollars a year looking for!

The bottom line is that you and your kind are single-minded. If the Air Force were to take you on a tour of every secret military base in the nation, showing you every damned thing there was to see regarding the incident, and proved to you that it was a terrestrial object, you'd still come out and say that they just hid the good stuff! That's EXACTLY your problem, and you know it.

JD

Okay, nice hypothesis. It's all bullshit, but nonetheless I'd rather move this debate forward. I can admit that the case is still unsolved and will probably always be. Because, we don't know for a fact what the (fuck) crashed out there that night. However, we can both hypothesis and are doing that.

However, this thread is about project Moon dust, Kecksburg and objects of unknown origin.

Well, I gather you think they were hiding something. Right? So, are you also jumping to that same conclusion? Granted, we may think they are hiding something different.. But a "conspiracy" is a conspiracy. Even if it's top secret.

No, I'm not saying I think they're hiding something. It's pretty evident that in the Kecksburg case that they did hide something, but there isn't anything solid about the Roswell case that says they are hiding anything.

Because they got their facts mixed up? That doesn't mean it was a cover up.

The others do not. It's also important to understand that after Kecksburg, WE KNOW our military will lie. So, I find it amazing you trust them more than the eye witnesses. Why do debunking skeptics always trust a military which is prone to secrecy to tell us the truth over witnesses? Yet another strange way of thinking in the mind of a skeptic.

We know our military will lie if it is in the nation's best interest. Witnesses? Who witnessed Roswell? The best we've ever gotten out of anyone was "I don't know what the hell it was, but it wasn't of this world..." which is not a statement that anyone who HAS come forward was qualified to make.

Again, I'm not saying that at some point the military hasn't covered something up. But why the jump to extraterrestrials? Because a few people said that they were? How would they know? Yet another strange way of thinking in the mind of a believer.

Well, actually the rancher who recovered the flying disk HAD RECOVERED SEVERAL BALLOONS BEFORE OUT THERE. He was familiar with them. Furthermore, Marcel was also familiar with them.

Brazell had recovered two previously. Two. Not ten, not six, not twenety. Two. And I beg you, what makes you think that it could not have been a different kind of balloon? The balloon the Air Force described was of the same reported size as the object that came crashing down, so what makes it so obscene to think that the thing was just a different kind of balloon? I see no reason to not believe that.

Okay, answer me this. What mistake did they make? (In this case, not the other one your trying to debunk).

Again, pure hypothosis, but backed by official Air Force releases and several official investigations: They made the mistake of taking the rancher for his word. When he said it was a saucer that crashed, they believed him. Upon closer inspection, it turned out to be a terrestrial object. They made the mistake of reporting the thing to be a saucer when they didn't know for sure.

This is where the importance of the Kecksburg case comes in. It illustrates we have hidden "UFO's" before and lied about them. Thus, the alien spacecraft hypothesis is only unlikely because of what could have been potentially covered up.

Exactly. They could have been covering up something else for all we know. I guess my problem isn't that they covered something up, but the irresponsible belief that it was an alien spacecraft. Our government has proven that they will protect us when the time arises, as was the case in Kecksberg. When a soviet satellite crashed on our soil, instead of putting us at risk by admitting we had a secret technology of the USSR, they lied and said they didn't. Later, they admitted that they did have a soviet satellite, becuase there was no longer a threat.

It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here.

It's important too understand that when you investigate, you can't just stop at the military explanation for everything. You can dig further. Especially when you have so many cases which all have a very similar story line and theme. Involving the same cover-up, of the same thing.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not true that we have "so many cases" or that they all follow the same theme. If by "theme" you mean the idea that things keep falling out of the sky, then you're right. But things always fall out of the sky. There's a lot of stuff up there!

There are two major cases in which UFO believers point to; Kecksberg and Roswell. That's it. And the only theme in either of them is mistakes made by the military which caused an uproar. They've both been explained, however. At some point, you have to realize that they're not always trying to hide stuff. Roswell may be a cover up, and Kecksberg was a cover up, but there's no real evidence that says they involved aliens. Nothing.

Wow! Jessie Marcel's story is corroberated by his son, among other witnesses

Wow! Jesse Marcel's son was a little kid at the time, and only recalled ANYTHING when he was put under hypnosis! Yeah, I'd call that dependable...please... He says of the objects he only remembered once he was hypnotized, and I quote,

"They were not of this world, trust me. They looked like material, but they were light as a feather."

Yeah. That sounds very out of this world to me, that's for sure. C'mon, people. This guy IDOLIZES his father. He's even a military man, (Col. Jessie Marcel Jr) and has heard so much of his father's story that it does not surprise me that he would believe anything he was told. Add to that, again, that Marcel Jr didn't recall any of the details until he was put under hypnosis, and I call his entire testimony into question.

He's been consistant and has not once been called dishonest

Who, Jr. or Sr.? If you're talking about Maj. Jesse Marcel, I call bullshit on your comment. He's been called into question PLENTY. Here's proof:

--He claimed to have been a pilot since 1928 with over 3000 logged flight hours, yet the FAA has no record of Jesse Marcel. Also, his Reserve Officer Career Brief, dated Nov 20, 1947, lists his flying experience as "none".

--He also claims to have shot down five enemy planes, yet there is no record of him even flying a plane, let alone shooting an enemy one down.

--He claims that he was an aid to Gen. Hap Arnold, and that Arnold made the decision for Marcel to go to intelligence school, but his first assignment in the military was as a student in the Army Air Forces Intelligence School (AAFIS), so the decision to send him there was made before he even became a member of the armed forces.

--Marcel claimed that he didn't know about his promotion to Lt. Col in the Reserves until after he left the service. This claim was an effort to back his story that the Air Force intentionally kept him "too busy following the Roswell incident to even check his personnel files". Yet, in a letter dated Oct 29, 1947 Marcel actually applied for the promotion. It gets better. In a letter dated Nov 20, 1947, Marcel was informed that the request for the promotion was approved, but it would be canceled unless he signed the acceptance oath "within a reasonable time". And on Dec 1, 1947, Marcel signed the oath, and officially accepted the promotion, totally contradicting his claim.

--Marcel claimed that he had a bachelor's degree in physics from GW University, and had attended LSU, NYU, and OSU. Yet in personell files, Marcel's claim is that he attended LSU for one year as a non-credit student. Also, LSU has no record of Marcel (But they do of his son). Even better, GWU has no record of him even attending the school, let alone graduating. A second search was conducted of the records, and the same result came up.

--Marcel claimed that he wrote the report that President Truman read on the air regarding Russia exploding an atomic device, but Truman did not read any report on the air about that incident. Also, declassified records do not include Marcel's name anywhere in regards to the reporting of the Soviet's A-Bomb explosion. The copy of the White House statement also shows no evidence that Marcel had anything to do with it.

--Marcel claims that he never spoke the reporters in General Ramey's office, even though he wanted to tell them about it. He also claims that when Ramey entered the room, he told Marcel "not to say anything," and that "he'd handle it", which is funny, because J. Bond Johnson, the reporter representing the Fort Worth Morning Star that day, reported that Marcel was the one doing the talking. Sources state that the article written by Johnson contains information which would have had to have come from Marcel, but I'm not exactly sure if that's true or not.

--Marcel claims that the photos of him holding debris were not doctored, and were of the actual wreckage brought back from the site. He also claims that the real wreckage was taken away, and replaced with false materials, and more pictures were taken, but Marcel "was not in those photos". It's funny that this is said, because the photo of Marcel shows him holding a radar target. So, according to Jesse Marcel's own testimony, the photo in which he is holding the radar target is a real picture of the real wreckage from the site!

So YES, Jesse Marcel has been called dishonest, and has contradicted many of his own statements. He has lied about his qualifications, about his education, and about the events surrounding the Roswell incident.

I find it AMAZING that you still consider the governments explanation more believable than his. We've just established the fact that the military is dishonest when dealing with UFO's and yet you still think the military is more honest than him.

I find it AMAZING that you believe Marcel without having even done a shred of research. But that's typical of the believer; they simply take the witnesses at their word, and don't question anything about them. In fact, when someone calls a witness into question, the believer is quick to jump down the skeptic's thraot! Why? Because the truth about the witness's true lack of credibility cannot come out, lest we learn that cases like Roswell aren't as spectacular as they thought.

And we've just established the fact that Jesse Marcel also lies. So why believe him so easily?

Given the military's tendency to coverup hidden/test objects, why do you trust their story over his?

Given Marcel's tendancy to totally make shit up regarding himself, why do you trust his story?

Those are the governments facts. The witnesses have been proven to be more honest and trustworthy than our military involving this case. Maybe one day you will understand this. Untill then you will always be way out there.

I really want you to re-read this comment now that I've shown you that about Marcel, and I want you to comment on it. I want to hear how you're going to talk your way out of this one, really, I do. "Proven to be honest and trustworthy"? First of all, you don't know a damned thing about the witnesses, obviously, and second of all, I just proved that the leading witness to the Roswell case, Jesse Marcel, was NOT honest OR trustworthy.

Okay, nice hypothesis. It's all bullshit,

How do you know it's bullshit?

However, we can both hypothesis and are doing that.

Yes, and I've shown you about a dozen different logical theories to your ONE illogical theory that aliens crashed on Earth. My theories are based on evidence, yours are based on speculation.

JD

I speculate that a group of super advanced aliens from another solar system landed on Earth about 100 million years ago and were invited to dinner by a group of hungry T-Rexes........Only problem was, they (the aliens) were the main course. :D

No, I'm not saying I think they're hiding something. It's pretty evident that in the Kecksburg case that they did hide something, but there isn't anything solid about the Roswell case that says they are hiding anything.

Because they got their facts mixed up? That doesn't mean it was a cover up.



We know our military will lie if it is in the nation's best interest. Witnesses? Who witnessed Roswell? The best we've ever gotten out of anyone was "I don't know what the hell it was, but it wasn't of this world..." which is not a statement that anyone who HAS come forward was qualified to make.

Again, I'm not saying that at some point the military hasn't covered something up. But why the jump to extraterrestrials? Because a few people said that they were? How would they know? Yet another strange way of thinking in the mind of a believer.



Brazell had recovered two previously. Two. Not ten, not six, not twenety. Two. And I beg you, what makes you think that it could not have been a different kind of balloon? The balloon the Air Force described was of the same reported size as the object that came crashing down, so what makes it so obscene to think that the thing was just a different kind of balloon? I see no reason to not believe that.



Again, pure hypothosis, but backed by official Air Force releases and several official investigations: They made the mistake of taking the rancher for his word. When he said it was a saucer that crashed, they believed him. Upon closer inspection, it turned out to be a terrestrial object. They made the mistake of reporting the thing to be a saucer when they didn't know for sure.



Exactly. They could have been covering up something else for all we know. I guess my problem isn't that they covered something up, but the irresponsible belief that it was an alien spacecraft. Our government has proven that they will protect us when the time arises, as was the case in Kecksberg. When a soviet satellite crashed on our soil, instead of putting us at risk by admitting we had a secret technology of the USSR, they lied and said they didn't. Later, they admitted that they did have a soviet satellite, becuase there was no longer a threat.

It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened here.



I understand what you're saying, but it's not true that we have "so many cases" or that they all follow the same theme. If by "theme" you mean the idea that things keep falling out of the sky, then you're right. But things always fall out of the sky. There's a lot of stuff up there!

There are two major cases in which UFO believers point to; Kecksberg and Roswell. That's it. And the only theme in either of them is mistakes made by the military which caused an uproar. They've both been explained, however. At some point, you have to realize that they're not always trying to hide stuff. Roswell may be a cover up, and Kecksberg was a cover up, but there's no real evidence that says they involved aliens. Nothing.



Wow! Jesse Marcel's son was a little kid at the time, and only recalled ANYTHING when he was put under hypnosis! Yeah, I'd call that dependable...please... He says of the objects he only remembered once he was hypnotized, and I quote,

"They were not of this world, trust me. They looked like material, but they were light as a feather."

Yeah. That sounds very out of this world to me, that's for sure. C'mon, people. This guy IDOLIZES his father. He's even a military man, (Col. Jessie Marcel Jr) and has heard so much of his father's story that it does not surprise me that he would believe anything he was told. Add to that, again, that Marcel Jr didn't recall any of the details until he was put under hypnosis, and I call his entire testimony into question.



Who, Jr. or Sr.? If you're talking about Maj. Jesse Marcel, I call bullshit on your comment. He's been called into question PLENTY. Here's proof:

--He claimed to have been a pilot since 1928 with over 3000 logged flight hours, yet the FAA has no record of Jesse Marcel. Also, his Reserve Officer Career Brief, dated Nov 20, 1947, lists his flying experience as "none".

--He also claims to have shot down five enemy planes, yet there is no record of him even flying a plane, let alone shooting an enemy one down.

--He claims that he was an aid to Gen. Hap Arnold, and that Arnold made the decision for Marcel to go to intelligence school, but his first assignment in the military was as a student in the Army Air Forces Intelligence School (AAFIS), so the decision to send him there was made before he even became a member of the armed forces.

--Marcel claimed that he didn't know about his promotion to Lt. Col in the Reserves until after he left the service. This claim was an effort to back his story that the Air Force intentionally kept him "too busy following the Roswell incident to even check his personnel files". Yet, in a letter dated Oct 29, 1947 Marcel actually applied for the promotion. It gets better. In a letter dated Nov 20, 1947, Marcel was informed that the request for the promotion was approved, but it would be canceled unless he signed the acceptance oath "within a reasonable time". And on Dec 1, 1947, Marcel signed the oath, and officially accepted the promotion, totally contradicting his claim.

--Marcel claimed that he had a bachelor's degree in physics from GW University, and had attended LSU, NYU, and OSU. Yet in personell files, Marcel's claim is that he attended LSU for one year as a non-credit student. Also, LSU has no record of Marcel (But they do of his son). Even better, GWU has no record of him even attending the school, let alone graduating. A second search was conducted of the records, and the same result came up.

--Marcel claimed that he wrote the report that President Truman read on the air regarding Russia exploding an atomic device, but Truman did not read any report on the air about that incident. Also, declassified records do not include Marcel's name anywhere in regards to the reporting of the Soviet's A-Bomb explosion. The copy of the White House statement also shows no evidence that Marcel had anything to do with it.

--Marcel claims that he never spoke the reporters in General Ramey's office, even though he wanted to tell them about it. He also claims that when Ramey entered the room, he told Marcel "not to say anything," and that "he'd handle it", which is funny, because J. Bond Johnson, the reporter representing the Fort Worth Morning Star that day, reported that Marcel was the one doing the talking. Sources state that the article written by Johnson contains information which would have had to have come from Marcel, but I'm not exactly sure if that's true or not.

--Marcel claims that the photos of him holding debris were not doctored, and were of the actual wreckage brought back from the site. He also claims that the real wreckage was taken away, and replaced with false materials, and more pictures were taken, but Marcel "was not in those photos". It's funny that this is said, because the photo of Marcel shows him holding a radar target. So, according to Jesse Marcel's own testimony, the photo in which he is holding the radar target is a real picture of the real wreckage from the site!

So YES, Jesse Marcel has been called dishonest, and has contradicted many of his own statements. He has lied about his qualifications, about his education, and about the events surrounding the Roswell incident.



I find it AMAZING that you believe Marcel without having even done a shred of research. But that's typical of the believer; they simply take the witnesses at their word, and don't question anything about them. In fact, when someone calls a witness into question, the believer is quick to jump down the skeptic's thraot! Why? Because the truth about the witness's true lack of credibility cannot come out, lest we learn that cases like Roswell aren't as spectacular as they thought.

And we've just established the fact that Jesse Marcel also lies. So why believe him so easily?



Given Marcel's tendancy to totally make shit up regarding himself, why do you trust his story?



I really want you to re-read this comment now that I've shown you that about Marcel, and I want you to comment on it. I want to hear how you're going to talk your way out of this one, really, I do. "Proven to be honest and trustworthy"? First of all, you don't know a damned thing about the witnesses, obviously, and second of all, I just proved that the leading witness to the Roswell case, Jesse Marcel, was NOT honest OR trustworthy.



How do you know it's bullshit?



Yes, and I've shown you about a dozen different logical theories to your ONE illogical theory that aliens crashed on Earth. My theories are based on evidence, yours are based on speculation.

JD

They got their facts mixed up. Because some UFO recoveries are not revealed. Given the Kecksburg case, we know this is true.

They hid a UFO. PERIOD.

Futhermore, I can play your bullshit debunking games too;

- The government lies to coverup secrets.

- The government has lied to coverup secrets.

- In Kecksburg the government has lied.

- Th government lies to coverup secrets.

So, your "skepticism" seems to only apply to Marcel - never the military, which reveals YOUR bias. Furhtermore, Marcel has people who corroberate his story.

Btimsah

Have you read Charles Fort's book, The Book Of The Damned ?

I think you will find it most interesting.

Norval

Wow. Norval replied to this thread, and yet btimsah is the one who sounds insane between them. Hmm. Well, thanks for the convo.

JD

Btimsah

Have you read Charles Fort's book, The Book Of The Damned ?

I think you will find it most interesting.

Norval

No, never have. But I did find this at amazon:

Book Description:

A reprint of a work originally published in 1919, which challenges what its author sees as "dogmatic" science by cataloguing examples of phenomena seemingly unexplainable in scientific terms. Fort (1874-1923) asserts that scientists often argue according to their own beliefs rather than the rules of evidence and ignore, discredit, or suppress facts that conflict with their preferred theories. He wrote several books on his philosophy and is also noteworthy for having coined the word promoted early theories of the universe as an organism, and systematically studied reported sightings of UFOs.

lol - yeah that works for me. I might go at lunch to see if Barnes and Noble has it... I doubt it. :(

Wow. Norval replied to this thread, and yet btimsah is the one who sounds insane between them. Hmm. Well, thanks for the convo.

JD

Yeah, I'm insane. :p