He's pandering to the Latino vote now. He easily won the black vote in South Carolina, but to woo California Latinos, where he is running 3-to-1 behind Clinton, he is taking a giant risk: spotlighting his support for the red-hot issue of granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. :mad:

It's a huge issue for Latinos, who want them. It's also a huge issue for the general electorate, which most vehemently does not. Obama's stand could come back to haunt him not only in a general election, but with other voters in California, where driver's licenses for illegal immigrants helped undo former Gov. Gray Davis.

Obama has not backed down on driver's licenses for criminal aliens. "I think when the Latino community hears Barack's position on such an important and controversial issue, they'll understand that his heart and his intellect is with Latino community." :mad:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/28/MNH1UL57Q.DTL&type=politics

This guy wants to give drivers licenses to criminal aliens--people who are here ILLEGALLY? :confused:

This is why the Democrats are going to blow this upcoming election.

And the media continues to refuse to acknowledge operation wetback.

The real problem is that Republican businessmen are in full support of this bullshit, along with amnesty. Had a so-called Republican professor for one of my upper level government classes who would always try to justify the existance of illegals...

Obama will raise taxes too. I just don't see anything good about this guy for America. :(

Obama will raise taxes too. I just don't see anything good about this guy for America. :(

we need to raise taxes now

No, we need to cut spending now.

No, we need to cut spending now.

probably both

He's pandering to the Latino vote now. He easily won the black vote in South Carolina, but to woo California Latinos, where he is running 3-to-1 behind Clinton, he is taking a giant risk: spotlighting his support for the red-hot issue of granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. :mad:

It's a huge issue for Latinos, who want them. It's also a huge issue for the general electorate, which most vehemently does not. Obama's stand could come back to haunt him not only in a general election, but with other voters in California, where driver's licenses for illegal immigrants helped undo former Gov. Gray Davis.

Obama has not backed down on driver's licenses for criminal aliens. "I think when the Latino community hears Barack's position on such an important and controversial issue, they'll understand that his heart and his intellect is with Latino community." :mad:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/28/MNH1UL57Q.DTL&type=politics

This guy wants to give drivers licenses to criminal aliens--people who are here ILLEGALLY? :confused:

It sems to me I've heard that song before. Do you ever think about the purpose of life, what it means to existence, metaphysical issues and so on ?

Obama will raise taxes too. I just don't see anything good about this guy for America. :(

For America read for selfish Sandy

Food for thought: New York City is very liberal and the rest of New York State leans conservative, but there was practically a unanimous rejection by New Yorkers of Governor Spitzer's proposal to give illegals driver licenses.

And look where it got Gray Davis. OUT! Yipee!! Now we have Ah-nold the RINO. :rolleyes:

Food for thought: New York City is very liberal and the rest of New York State leans conservative, but there was practically a unanimous rejection by New Yorkers of Governor Spitzer's proposal to give illegals driver licenses.

I think that's because most people think of their driver's license almost as "proof of citizenship." By giving licenses to illegals, there is a sense in which it looks like we're forgiving their being here without permission.

From a practical standpoint, giving licenses to illegals makes sense: preparing for the driving test requires that you know the rules of the road and have certain minimum skills as a driver. Giving illegals an ability to get a license would encourage them to learn those fundamentals.

If we could divorce the notion that getting a license as some sort of de facto "endorsement" by the states, I think the issue would break very differently. If undocumented status is enough to deny someone a license, why not revoke the licenses of actual criminals? After all being "undocumented" by itself is *not even* a crime, so why should a convicted drug user, or vandal, or tax evader get to keep his or hers?

The problem is that people, on an emotional level, are not ready to see the issue any other way but as an endorsement, when it comes to illegals (but do not see it that way when it comes to other bad acts or crimes). And cold logic rarely prevails against raw emotion.

All of which is to say that perhaps Obama is *not* pandering to Latinos, but actually stating his actual belief. He may be stating them in part because of the effect it will have amongst Latino voters, but we do not need to assume that he's dissembling.

He's pandering. And that just may be the nail in the coffin of his campaign. Most Americans do NOT want the criminal aliens here much less giving them licenses. :(

Bad move Obama. :(

I actually agree Pandaemoni. The issue of illegal immigration has to be dealt with, but not by ignoring the reality that is the illegal population in the US. I'm just pointing out the possible repercussions this might have on Obama's political aspirations.

Bush mentioned biometric ID cards himself for our "guest workers" (slave labor).

Brilliant political move. These illegals are driving anyway. So the DL's isn't going to make a difference in reality.

have anyone of you been in a dmv recently. hell the one i go to has quite a few people thier who only speak spanish. hell i have seen people have thier children translate for them whille taking the test

catch illegals driving illegaly and deport the fuckers

Most Americans do NOT want the criminal aliens here much less giving them licenses. :(


But suppose I were to assert: "Most Americans do NOT want criminals living in the U.S., much less giving them licenses."

Why is it that giving licenses to illegal aliens = "do not want" but giving licenses to thieves, jaywalkers and wife-beaters = "A-Okay!"? Even people convicted on DUIs can apply for a "hardship license" in many states, and their crime is specifically driving related (assuming the state takes their license in the first place).

Giving these criminals licenses does not mean that we endorse their crimes. The reason we license people in the first place is to try to ensure that people on the road know what they are doing, not to validate their existence in the country. If not giving licenses stopped illegals from driving, then I'd understand it more, but as it stands I think they drive anyway, except without ever learning the rules of the road.

A license isn't a benefit States give to people they like, it's a hassle that the State governments make people endure because the States assume that they would drive like morons in the absence of minimum standards. So I ask you, why are you opposed to hassling "criminal aliens"?

Anything to defend the illegals, right?

Anything to defend the illegals, right?

You and your demagoguery. It's not about defending illegals. It's about making the roads safer for everyone else. We know these people will be driving anyway, this way they can at least pass a states' eligibility requirements. They can also now pay for car insurance, and they'll be willing to stick around in case of accidents. These are things that benefit regular citizens.

What giving illegals licenses does NOT do is provide a path to citizenship.

It just gives them legal documentation to open up bank accounts and take out homeloans and have pretty much every benefit of a legal resident...


Not to mention, how many states use your driver's liscense as proof for voting?

=ashura;. It's not about defending illegals. It's about making the roads safer for everyone else.

Exactly! With these DL's they'll be able to register thier vehicles (more money for the state) and they'll be able to purchase insurance. Uninsured drivers is a huge problem in L.A so this will definately make everyone safer in the end.

Anything to defend the illegals, right?

I don't see what I wrote as a defense of illegals. It's a defense of the State regulation of driving standards. It just so happens that, under those regulations, it doesn't make much sense to cut large populations out oif the regulatory scheme, if the alternative is for them to drive unlicensed (which seems to be what's happening).

Just as I condemn wife-beating, but do not want the driver's licenses of wife-beaters taken away, I can condemn entering the country illegally without denying the immigrant a license. Those are not mutually exclusive positions.

It just gives them legal documentation to open up bank accounts and take out homeloans and have pretty much every benefit of a legal resident...


Not to mention, how many states use your driver's liscense as proof for voting?

And I do agree that changes would need to be made on the issue of what a driver's license may be used for, but those are *decidedly* secondary uses of the license, not the primary reason the licenses are issued. Most likely people obtaining licenses without proof of U.S. citizenship or residency would obtain a separate class of license that clearly identifies that fact. At the very least, you would not be able to use the class of license an illegal obtains as proof of legal residency the way we do with standard licenses.

(As for bank accounts...foreigners who live outside the U.S. can and do open up bank accounts within the U.S. So I am not sure why illegals could not do so with or without a State Driver's License.)

Start throwing the bastards out, then uninsured drivers won't be such a problem.

It just gives them legal documentation to open up bank accounts and take out homeloans and have pretty much every benefit of a legal resident...

Wrong. Illegals already have a path to bank accounts. How does a driver's license give illegals the credit history they need to take out a home loan? Answer: it doesn't. What other benefits are you talking about?

That was a big mistake.
Those aliens are really bad drivers - they shouldn't have licenses.

Everyone saw what they did in Roswell.

That was a big mistake.
Those aliens are really bad drivers - they shouldn't have licenses.

Everyone saw what they did in Roswell.

Lucky for us, because now we have computers and cellphones;)

Start throwing the bastards out, then uninsured drivers won't be such a problem.

You mean, so they can just turn around and come back again?

follow operation wetback and it will take them a little effort to come back

So angry, what other benefits from licenses for illegals were you talking about? Since, you know, the ones you mentioned earlier as the reason to not give illegals licenses were completely false.

You don't need a credit check to open a bank account.

But you obviously need to learn to read. I already told you that illegals already have a path to bank accounts. They don't need licenses, or a credit check, for that. Home loans are a different matter and licenses have no bearing on that issue. What matters then is equity, credit history, etc. So giving an illegal a license wouldn't change whether or not they could get a home loan.

So, again, what benefits of a legal resident will illegals be getting with a drivers' license?

The benefit of having a legal source of identification.

The benefit of having a legal source of identification.

Very simple solution: tiered licenses. Those not willing to provide proper identification and proof of residency/citizenship would get a lower tier license that can't be used for legal identification purposes the same way a regular license can. Make it hot pink or something so that there can be no doubt as to what kind of license it is. It would only be to drive and get car insurance.

That was a big mistake.
Those aliens are really bad drivers - they shouldn't have licenses.

Everyone saw what they did in Roswell.

:worship: lMAO

The reason we license people in the first place is to try to ensure that people on the road know what they are doing, not to validate their existence in the country. If not giving licenses stopped illegals from driving, then I'd understand it more, but as it stands I think they drive anyway, except without ever learning the rules of the road

In the first place, I do not object to your point. Especially when it comes to the fact that people who are in the country illegally drive anyway. However, states also issue non-driving identification cards. I should know, I used one for years while my license was suspended pending the outcome of a DUI accusation. For the record, I got my license back before the issue was resolved in part because the court ruled that I could not be denied a license for something I had not yet been convicted of. A nifty coincidence, I suppose, since it was a failure to appear that was the catalyst for the suspension.

Nonetheless, my point is about ID cards. Conservatives like to focus on driver's licenses because it makes for a sensationalist distraction. The point of issuing identification cards to otherwise-undocumented immigrants is to get them on the record. And, in the end, that is what conservatives object to. They don't want these people on the record. In the first place, the more we understand about how important these people are to our economy, the harder it gets for conservatives to throw hysterical fits about them. Secondly, if they're on the record, then conservatives have a harder time exploiting them as cheap labor.

The primary functional problem I envision is a question of what reliable documentation the immigrants might have. I would prefer to have these people on the record for humanitarian, administrative, and other reasons. But some of them could no more prove their names than I could prove my name is George Walker Bush. And this is problematic.

We need to move the discussion to this frame before we can engage the more important question of our humanitarian obligation to help these people establish who they are in the first place. Between defense overspending and corporate welfare, there's plenty of money to accommodate such processes, but as we see even from our discussions here at Sciforums, many of our neighbors are simply incapable at this point of treating human beings of different national origin with the dignity we purport to afford the species. Invisible lines in the dirt are more important to some than their fellow human beings. Ignorant, disgusting, tragic yes. But it's what we have to deal with before we can get around to doing the right thing. One of the costs of aspiring to freedom is the obligation to decency and dignity. For some of us, that's not burden. For others, though, it's simply too much to ask.

A license isn't a benefit States give to people they like, it's a hassle that the State governments make people endure because the States assume that they would drive like morons in the absence of minimum standards.

Okay, this part I object to, but only on the grounds that people drive like morons, anyway. Around here, it's a divinely-ordained right. For instance, I was just talking to my dad on the phone, and he was telling me a story about a woman he encountered today who got pissed off and flipped him off because he was in her way: specifically, when she went around the curve and wanted to drift back and forth between the lanes at random, his car was in the way. The theory, of course, being that since she drove an SUV, she had no obligation to stay in her lane. How dare those other cars be on the road!

And, as a personal note, I still don't understand how it is that people who buy expensive, tight-handling sports cars can't make a left-hand turn and stay in their lane. If your Porsche is supposed to be so tight, how come you need to drift so wide? Hell, I drive an eighteen year-old Toyota, and I can make the corner properly.

My sarcastic motto? Give a person a license, and they think they know how to drive.

Very simple solution: tiered licenses. Those not willing to provide proper identification and proof of residency/citizenship would get a lower tier license that can't be used for legal identification purposes the same way a regular license can. Make it hot pink or something so that there can be no doubt as to what kind of license it is. It would only be to drive and get car insurance.

I just really don't see how you can enforce that.

I just really don't see how you can enforce that.

I dont see how you couldnt. No SS# no Greencard= Hot pink license.

If a doctor was practicing without a license, should we just give him one anyways. After all, he's gonna keep doing it, so we might as well let him have one so we can keep tabs on him.

I'm confused as to what part of illegal people aren't understanding.

If a doctor was practicing without a license, should we just give him one anyways. After all, he's gonna keep doing it, so we might as well let him have one so we can keep tabs on him.

I'm confused as to what part of illegal people aren't understanding.

I'm not sure if operating a motor vehicle is the same as operating on a person. :shrug:

I'm confused as to what part of illegal people aren't understanding.

They're being distracted by the focus on driver's licenses as opposed to ID cards.

I'm not sure if operating a motor vehicle is the same as operating on a person. :shrug:

Its ILLEGAL!!! People should be against illegal activities, not supporting it because "well, they're gonna do it anyways"
A Dr. with no license operating is not much different than someone operating a 2 ton vehicle illegally. Either way, lives are at stake. Both should be stopped.

Its ILLEGAL!!! People should be against illegal activities, not supporting it because "well, they're gonna do it anyways"
A Dr. with no license operating is not much different than someone operating a 2 ton vehicle illegally. Either way, lives are at stake. Both should be stopped.

So, the second something is made illegal we should all just refrain from doing it without question? Do you do that, or are there illegal things that you do that you know are illegal but do anyways? If so do you think those things should be illegal, I would guess not. Noone should just blindly follow whatever orders are given.

anything that I do that is illegal, I don't whine about if I get caught. If I speed and get a ticket, I don't throw a fit about it.
I don't break the law and then demand rights that I shouldn't have. Felons can't have guns or vote. You break the law, you lose some rights. people here ILLEGALLY don't have a right to have a license. They shouldn't be here driving. They should be deported. Every damn time they come here illegally they should be deported.
Come here on a work visa/green card. Get enough money to bring your family over legally. I have no problem with that.

They're being distracted by the focus on driver's licenses as opposed to ID cards.

Since when are driver's licenses not ID cards?

Firstly, there are no illegal human beings. Nor is there is a single acre of ground on this planet in possession of its 'rightful' owner. The undocumented guest workers who are in the United States have been practically invited, by a whole host of push and pull factors, not the least of which is the US southern border being as open and inviting as the quivering pussy of a new bride.

With respect to the completely pretend issue of driving safety, there are no sane options other than:
1) granting guest works licenses (or at least driver training),
2) creating a comprehensive and efficient public transport system,
3) organising carpools for guest workers with licensed/trained drivers, or
4) immediately deporting the guest workers.

Numbers 2 and 4 are dismissed out of hand as being too compassionate and too brutal to be politically feasible, respectively; and, the American people being what they are, one seriously doubts the efficacy of calling for a legion of carpool-driving volounteers (the average American driver would rather be sodomised by a severed goat's head than carpool, especially with Mestizos).

Therefore, driver training, with or without licenses - or with a special class of license, can be the only foreseeable remedy. The US needs the guest workers like Cheney needs the blood of innocents, and so there is no chance that they will be deported en masse no matter who is president.

:shrug:anything that I do that is illegal, I don't whine about if I get caught. If I speed and get a ticket, I don't throw a fit about it.
I don't break the law and then demand rights that I shouldn't have. Felons can't have guns or vote. You break the law, you lose some rights. people here ILLEGALLY don't have a right to have a license. They shouldn't be here driving. They should be deported. Every damn time they come here illegally they should be deported.
Come here on a work visa/green card. Get enough money to bring your family over legally. I have no problem with that.

You dont see the hypocricy of telling others to obey laws, then breaking laws yourself? Take drugs for example, people are going to do drugs, and alot of people do despite the fact that they are illegal. So millions upon millions of dollars are spent enforcing laws that dont really make us any safer or our country any more free of drugs. So whats the point really? Despite the fact that these people dont have the "right" to drive they do it anyway, and because they are no eligable for insurance they are actually even more dangerous to others on the road. You cant stop this from happening, so why not just try and increase the safety of driving for other drivers while decreasing the amount of drivers who are uninsured. Its got problems both ways i know...thats just my view.


Keep in mind I would love to see alot less illegals comming into our country and I dont like the fact that they are here at all, but they are here.

....The US needs the guest workers like Cheney needs the blood of innocents, and so there is no chance that they will be deported en masse no matter who is president.

yes, we do. But the employeers need to pay for them to come over here. The US needs the workers more than they realize and they are cutting their own purse strings by coming over illegally.

Since when are driver's licenses not ID cards?

Since when are ID cards driver's licenses?

At least you picked up on the one-liner. You should try the more complex discussion in order to fill in the detail. Since you seem to have missed it:

.... However, states also issue non-driving identification cards ....

.... Conservatives like to focus on driver's licenses because it makes for a sensationalist distraction. The point of issuing identification cards to otherwise-undocumented immigrants is to get them on the record.

A driver's license, while it is an identification card, is different from a simple identification card insofar as one confers the right to legally operate a motor vehicle while the other does not.

Sorry to have confused you so badly. It was wrong of me to assume you understood the difference.

Its ILLEGAL!!! People should be against illegal activities, not supporting it because "well, they're gonna do it anyways"
A Dr. with no license operating is not much different than someone operating a 2 ton vehicle illegally. Either way, lives are at stake. Both should be stopped.

So, again, why do we not revoke the driver's licenses of all criminals too. Being an illegal alien is not a crime. Assaulting someone in a bar is. Why does the assaulter get to keep his license? What part of criminal are you not understanding?

The problem with your doctor analogy is that a doctor who does not have a license does not have one because he is a bad doctor. By denying him his license you signal to his patients that he is bad. (If he's a perfectly good doctor, but practicing without a license, then I have no innate objection to giving him a license, and don't see why anyone else would either. If that good doctor has the ability to get a license, then he probably will do so, before he starts practicing.)

An illegal immigrant without a license might be an excellent driver. By denying that person a license, you help no one. If the illegal alien were a bad driver (which would be analogous to your unlicensed doctor analogy), I say that alien should be denied a license.

Bad doctors = denied license
bad drivers = denied license

Apples to apples, that.

By harping on the phrase "illegal" you seem to be unaware that (i) "illegal" doesn't mean criminal and/or (ii) that we allow actual, full-fledged criminals to get driver's licenses in this country, and yet the country has yet to cry out against it.

....Being an illegal alien is not a crime.....

huh?

Current licenses are required to board an airplane. Giving licenses to criminal aliens would be a disaster.:(

Yeah, they could accidently fly home, and we could lose the cheap labor.

Then our unemployment rate would drop. Granted, it's only 5% but that's at least 1% too many.:(

Current licenses are required to board an airplane. Giving licenses to criminal aliens would be a disaster.:(

Do you understand the notion that a special driver's license, ONLY allowing a person to DRIVE, is what is being suggested?

Sandy i have herd of lots of canadians who work in the US and live in Canada. Why is it that you seem so oposed to people doing the same thing from Mexico?

If they wanted to there would be nothing stoping sheep rooters working here and living in NZ. Infact we can both go back and forth as we see fit. Our divers licences are valid in NZ, we can access all the social services of both countries, education, work, Medical, ect The only thing we cant do is vote in the other country

huh?


Merely being in the country illegally is not a crime under federal law. It's the federal equivalent of jaywalking, getting a parking or speeding ticket or spitting on the sidewalk in NYC, all of which are illegal, but not crimes. They are all administrative violations for which fines may be payable and other administrative penalties ordered.

Imagine that a British tourist comes to the U.S. and stays longer than the 90 days allowed by law for such tourists without a visa. On day 91 that person is not a "criminal", because the law does not make the illegal presence in this country a crime. Nor does it become a crime if the person happens to have brown skin. Such a person would be here "illegally" though and subject to deportation.

Be glad that it is not a crime, by the way. If it were a crime, every illegal alien would be entitled to a lawyer and full fledged trial before a jury before punishment (deportation) could be ordered because that's what the Constitution requires in criminal trials. Since there are about 12 million of them and our jails are overcrowded with 2 million incarcerated, that would be a nightmare.

If you are deported and then you are once again found in this county illegally, *that* is then a crime, punishable by jail time.

Do you understand the notion that a special driver's license, ONLY allowing a person to DRIVE, is what is being suggested?

Yet you have failed to mention how that would be enforced.

Yet you have failed to mention how that would be enforced.

Well for sandy's example of current licenses being required to board planes, the hypothetical hot pink license would not be eligible to board.

Sandy i have herd of lots of canadians who work in the US and live in Canada. Why is it that you seem so oposed to people doing the same thing from Mexico?

I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. How many times do I have to say it? :confused: It's the ILLEGAL/CRIMINAL aliens I have problems with. Especially now that one of my friend's daughter has just died from whooping cough from some POS criminal alien's kid. :mad: :mad:

what makes a person who walks in from canda legally alowed to work in the US and one who walks in from mexico ILLEGAL????????

my sympathys to your friend.

Yet you have failed to mention how that would be enforced.

That is a separate issue, we still have people struggling with the first one...

what makes a person who walks in from canda legally alowed to work in the US and one who walks in from mexico ILLEGAL????????

I don't support anyone walking in here. They must come here legally or I have no use for them no matter where they're from.

...my sympathys to your friend.

Thanks. It's personal now. I was ticked off before. Now I'm beyond enraged. This couple tried for 10 years to have this kid. :(

I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. How many times do I have to say it? :confused: It's the ILLEGAL/CRIMINAL aliens I have problems with. Especially now that one of my friend's daughter has just died from whooping cough from some POS criminal alien's kid. :mad: :mad:

First let me express my condolences for your friend's daughter.

However, I think this illustrates an important point that I do not wish to derail this thread with: other people's health directly benefits us.

Well for sandy's example of current licenses being required to board planes, the hypothetical hot pink license would not be eligible to board.

Who would enforce this?

Uh, the people who require you to have a drivers license now to board planes? It would be as if you hadn't brought in a license at all, you'd just be rejected.

I mean what independant agency is going to make sure that the tard working at the gate doesn't just say hay your name, your face, government document, matches with the ticket...

Whatever agency is already in place that tells the "tard working at the gate" what documents are eligible and what documents are not.

I mean what independant agency is going to make sure that the tard working at the gate doesn't just say hay your name, your face, government document, matches with the ticket...

They let bad guys through too but they never miss your bottled water. :rolleyes:

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/07/19/tsa-seizes-water-lets-bombs-through/

They let bad guys through too but they never miss your bottled water. :rolleyes:

http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/07/19/tsa-seizes-water-lets-bombs-through/

thats old news

What's your point? It's still relevant in that airport security is still shoddy in the US. And July of 2007 isn't that long ago.

What's your point? It's still relevant in that airport security is still shoddy in the US. And July of 2007 isn't that long ago.

not saying its not relevant but it is old news that things are that shitty. i read a book about this year and half ago.

So then what's the point of mentioning that it's old news???

It happened again recently with real stuff but I forgot where I read it. I had to use the old story link.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/cetawayo/hillary-priceless.jpg

catch illegals driving illegaly and deport the fuckers

those "fuckers" pick up your oranges. They accept cheap labor a help our economy greatly. Its not slave labor since they are choosing to do so.

Oh and, I don't get it. Wouldn't Obama lose more votes overall from non Hispanic people?

I mean what independant agency is going to make sure that the tard working at the gate doesn't just say hay your name, your face, government document, matches with the ticket...

Who told the "tard at the gate" what licenses look like from various states to begin with? There are 50 of them,after all,and they all look a bit different. So now there would be 51, with the 51st being hot pick and likely stating in clear terms "NOT VALID FOR INDENTIFICATION PURPOSES."

In fact,,many states already have that sort oflicense. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.20.035in section (6), which says:

(6) If the applicant is unable to prove his or her identity under this section, the department shall plainly label the license "not valid for identification purposes.

The people you call "tards" evidently have already surmounted this hurdle you find so mind boggling.

yes, we do. But the employeers need to pay for them to come over here. The US needs the workers more than they realize and they are cutting their own purse strings by coming over illegally.

A story from last year, via NPR:

Ludden, Jennifer. "Corruption Leads to Deep Debt for Guest Workers". All Things Considered. May 8, 2007. See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10079556

Fraudulent employment coordinators in the United States have much to gain by encouraging immigrants to come work in the country. Some of them, such as a group called Million Express Manpower, while certified by governments overseas, are nonetheless conning workers. People like "Son", a Thai immigrant tobacco worker, are defrauded by American agencies, and end up being illegals through no fault of their own.

It would be inappropriate to say that these are the majority, but your comment reminded me of this story. The contemptuous judgment some of our neighbors show these immigrant laborers may well be unfair. But, of course, since they're immigrants with brown skin, those neighbors of ours don't seem to care that their fellow Americans are responsible for that part of the problem.

Very few Americans who are so upset about illegal immigrants seem to give a damn about, say, British illegals (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=65154). It's so much easier to pick on those who have darker skin.

I have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. How many times do I have to say it? :confused: It's the ILLEGAL/CRIMINAL aliens I have problems with. Especially now that one of my friend's daughter has just died from whooping cough from some POS criminal alien's kid. :mad: :mad:

However sad it is that a child has died, it is pure conjecture to blame it on illegal immigrants. What evidence have you ?

Had the child been vaccinated, the outcome would not have been so tragic. So why no vaccination ?

....Had the child been vaccinated, the outcome would not have been so tragic. So why no vaccination ?

the vaccine doesn't last forever. The last shot is usually given at about 11 yrs. Then I guess they just hope you don't get it. And if you do, you'll be strong enough to fight it.

Orleander I may well be wrong but isnt whooping cough part of the tripple antagen?

If it is my last one was umm 2 years ago

yes it is. Here you get the shot about 3x in your life. 11 yrs is the last one.

Here you get a tentnas shot everytime you ask for one (under medicare i might add)

They recomend you be vacinated every 10 years for normal people, 5 years if you work in an area tetnas is likly and every time you have step on something that could spreed tetnas if its more than 5 years from your last one

those "fuckers" pick up your oranges. They accept cheap labor a help our economy greatly.

The criminal alien parasites invading this country are stealing jobs from Americans by keeping prices low. When they will work for $10/hr cash vs. an American getting $15+/hr, stupid people will hire them. Some cleaning ladies in CA get $50/hr cash. I want them all arrested/deported. Yesterday.:mad:

And the fact that Obama wants to give them driver's licenses makes my blood boil. HOW DARE HE? :mad: They are here ILLEGALLY. :mad:

The criminal alien parasites invading this country are stealing jobs from Americans by keeping prices low. When they will work for $10/hr cash vs. an American getting $15+/hr, stupid people will hire them. Some cleaning ladies in CA get $50/hr cash. I want them all arrested/deported. Yesterday.:mad:

This doesn't make any sense. How can you say they can undercut Americans with low wages, then claim they are making $50/hr cash in CA? Are Americans not willing to work for slightly less? I think we need some clarification on this.

This doesn't make any sense. How can you say they can undercut Americans with low wages, then claim they are making $50/hr cash in CA? Are Americans not willing to work for slightly less? I think we need some clarification on this.

$50/hr cash is cheap in Malibu, Bel Aire, Bev Hills, Brentwood etc for a good, reliable cleaning lady. Some good American companies charge much more.

Why should Americans work for less? We didn't come here illegally and steal anyone's jobs. :mad:

The criminal alien parasites invading this country are stealing jobs from Americans by keeping prices low. When they will work for $10/hr cash vs. an American getting $15+/hr, stupid people will hire them. Some cleaning ladies in CA get $50/hr cash. I want them all arrested/deported. Yesterday.:mad:

And the fact that Obama wants to give them driver's licenses makes my blood boil. HOW DARE HE? :mad: They are here ILLEGALLY. :mad:

How is somebody who works, a crimnal. alien parasite ? Do they steal jobs or are those jobs given to them by your American compatriots ? People who hire them are not stupid; they are greedy and greed seems to be part of your much vaunted American way of life.

If prices are kept low, surely that is a good thing for the consumer. Consumers can vote with their feet and pay more for products that are made by Americans, so why don't they ?

How about all the cheap imports from China ? And then you have all the jobs that are being exported. American consumers must be buying the stuff and not giving a damn about anyone but themselves.

The bottom line is that you live in a dog-eat-dog society which is fine until you get bitten. A free market is what it says, a free for all.

I know it's hard for you ,but you should think things through before apportioning blame in such a facile manner

How about all the cheap imports from China ? And then you have all the jobs that are being exported. American consumers must be buying the stuff and not giving a damn about anyone but themselves.

That's the real answer, of course, if cheap migrant labor were not available in the U.S., American workers (demanding higher wages) would still only be hired to the extent that solution was ultimately cheaper than importing. Produce is a little trickier to import than more durable goods, but it's still commonplace to import perishables.

Imports not only cost the American consumer more than the present system, but the lack of workers and sales leaves the understaffed American farms high and dry. Economics is not a patriotic discipline, and the free flow of labor (across borders or otherwise) is something that economics suggests is always a good thing in the long run, no differently than the free flow of capital.

I don't know that there is an "ideal" solution to the labor issue in America. In addition to demanding higher wages, unemployment amongst Americans is so low that it's unclear we could fill all the farm worker jobs with American labor. 5% has to be pretty near the natural rate of unemployment, meaning that a lot of those people who are so unemployed are not chronically so, but just happen to be in the middle of changing jobs. Even amongst the chronically unemployed, it's not clear that enough of those people live in or near farming communities. The beauty of migrant workers from an employer's perspective isn't just the low wages and no benefits, but also the geographical flexibility.

How is somebody who works, a crimnal. alien parasite ?

Working/having a job doesn't prevent anyone from being a criminal, alien, and/or parasite.

The working criminal aliens are still stealing education, healthcare, welfare, food stamps, etc. They are filling our jails and ruining our neighborhoods. :mad:

no they arnt sandy. I dont know why your so bitter about them, maybe you need to realise that more people EQUALS more jobs automatically. I sugest you come to australia and look up a woman called Pauline Hanson. Then the two of you can buy guns and sit on an island somewhere on your own. See how your sociaty funtions then

no they arnt sandy. I dont know why your so bitter about them, maybe you need to realise that more people EQUALS more jobs automatically. I sugest you come to australia and look up a woman called Pauline Hanson. Then the two of you can buy guns and sit on an island somewhere on your own. See how your sociaty funtions then

Isn't that a little confrontational for a mod? :confused:

I despise criminal aliens for how they're ruining my country. :mad:

More people does NOT=more jobs. Where the hell did you come up with that?

Too many parasites willing to work for cheap/cash=less jobs for Americans. :mad:

Working/having a job doesn't prevent anyone from being a criminal, alien, and/or parasite.

The working criminal aliens are still stealing education, healthcare, welfare, food stamps, etc. They are filling our jails and ruining our neighborhoods. :mad:

How little you undertstand. No wonder you admire Bush.

Isn't that a little confrontational for a mod? :confused:

I despise criminal aliens for how they're ruining my country. :mad:

More people does NOT=more jobs. Where the hell did you come up with that?

Too many parasites willing to work for cheap/cash=less jobs for Americans. :mad:


Again, who hires these people ? Illegal, crimnal aliens ? I think not; it's you fellow Americans after a fast buck. So why just blame the aliens ?

You are pretty shallow in your understanding of what is going on.

It is just a shame that the Rio Grane isn't treated more like the Yalu River.

$50/hr cash is cheap in Malibu, Bel Aire, Bev Hills, Brentwood etc for a good, reliable cleaning lady. Some good American companies charge much more.

Why should Americans work for less? We didn't come here illegally and steal anyone's jobs. :mad:

I was assuming that they did that 40 hours a week, which would translate to roughly $104,000 not counting taxes, then again it's cash so taxes may not be collected. This is very good pay and assuming that it is 40 hours a week, I don't find it hard to believe that someone who was "legal" would be willing to do the same job for $90,000. But like I said, perhaps it's not 40 hours. Cleaning personnel don't have to live in those expensive areas.

I understand EXACTLY what is happening and am doing my best to stop it. :mad:

I understand EXACTLY what is happening and am doing my best to stop it. :mad:

You are not explaining it very precisely then. I mean, for example, the illegal aliens are not "stealing" anyone's jobs. First, because it is not clear that there are Americans who would take the job at any wage the market would bear (unless you inject protectionist regulation forbidding the importation of farm products, then perhaps...). Second, it's plainly the employer's job to give, *not* the unemployed American's job to take. Since the employers freely choose to give it to the illegals, in no sense is there a theft. Say that you and I enter the grocery store, and discover there is only one one loaf of bread left to buy. Let's say you get it, take it to the cashier, pay for it and start out the door. Should I yell: "Stop! Thief! You stole that bread from me!" :D

You are not explaining it very precisely then. I mean, for example, the illegal aliens are not "stealing" anyone's jobs. First, because it is not clear that there are Americans who would take the job at any wage the market would bear (unless you inject protectionist regulation forbidding the importation of farm products, then perhaps...). Second, it's plainly the employer's job to give, *not* the unemployed American's job to take....

You just don't get it. They are not only stealing jobs but keeping wages down by working for cheap/cash. Some of the worst was the construction industry. Workers (including union) getting $20-$50/hr are jobless since some criminal aliens work for $6-$10 cash. :mad: Criminal aliens give most of the employers falsified documents. :mad: It's worse than you could possibly imagine. And Obama's giving them driver's licenses is unforgivable.:mad:

You just don't get it. They are not only stealing jobs but keeping wages down by working for cheap/cash.

That's not stealing, that is called basic economics.




Some of the worst was the construction industry. Workers (including union) getting $20-$50/hr are jobless since some criminal aliens work for $6-$10 cash. :mad:

What do you think we should do to punish companies who do this?



And Obama's giving them driver's licenses is unforgivable.:mad:

This has already been explained to you. You have not made a sufficient argument that specialty driver's license would cause "job stealing"

Just tell the morons to sneak into Mexico, refuse to speak Spanish and see how well they do.

Just tell the morons to sneak into Mexico, refuse to speak Spanish and see how well they do.

Fine.

angry, you should sneak into Mexico, refuse to speak Spanish and see how well you do.

I'm not the one promoting illegal immigration.

Nevermind. :cool:

I'm not the one promoting illegal immigration.

That's right, you're the one promoting bad driving and automobile accidents.

Catch the illegals driving, then throw them out of the country because they are illegals.

Law enforcement should be doing their job instead of liberals going baawww laws are dumb so we should ignore the tens of millions of invaders that ruin the country.

Catch the illegals driving, then throw them out of the country because they are illegals.

Law enforcement should be doing their job instead of liberals going baawww laws are dumb so we should ignore the tens of millions of invaders that ruin the country.

Nice straw man.

I would point out that it's not State law enforcement's job to enforce the federal immigration rules. They can, if the State wants, but it would be costly for the State (and I am not sure they'd be reimbursed for the expense).

I have no issue with expanding the federal government's investigative forces to include people looking for illegals so that they might then be deported. (I do question where the money would come from for that, but that's a different matter.) That is an entirely different issue than giving them access to licenses. For whatever reason, the federal government has not been doing a good job deporting these people, and the States need to deal with the very large numbers that there are in the country. Using licensing requirements to encourage them to learn to drive is one such step and it is logically distinct from the question of deportation.

Just tell the morons to sneak into Mexico, refuse to speak Spanish and see how well they do.

When was the last time you were REQUIRED to speak spanish?

Catch the illegals driving, then throw them out of the country because they are illegals.

This is quite possible. People are not suggesting that police officers (or law enforcers) give these permits/licenses to illegal immigrants. The suggestion is that illegal immigrants could go to a institution (aka not law enforcement) and learn how to correctly drive and then purchase insurance so there is some degree of responsibility. Would you rather get in an accident with someone insured or someone uninsured?

Good job on not reading my post, as I made mention of going to Mexico and refusing to speak Spanish, which would be similar to going to the USA and refusing to speak English.

Though since you want to know the last time I was REQUIRED to speak spanish, it is manditory for anyone in university thinking about getting into eudcation to take Spanish and only Spanish as a language. Then there are the racist idiots I had in my EDU classes that demand that I speak Spanish to my students who are children of illegal immigrants and that I should never speak to them in English.

Just because they have licenses does NOT mean they're insured. There are millions of people here without insurance. We have to carry "uninsured motorist" insurance to cover their POS @sses. :mad:

So many of the criminal aliens have falsified/stolen IDs and licenses it's hard to figure out anything. I say arrest/deport them all. And NO chance for legal re-entry. :mad:

Obama wanting to give CRIMINAL ILLEGAL ALIENS licenses is pathetic. So is he. :mad:

Yes but if the have licenses they CAN get insured. And they will be more likely to stick around in the case of an accident.

Yes but if the have licenses they CAN get insured. And they will be more likely to stick around in the case of an accident.

Most of them are not going to buy insurance. They're driving crapmobiles that are eyesores. They are parasites and just suck us dry. They send their money to other countries. When they get into accidents they just pretend they don't speak English and the police let them go.:mad:

Just because they have licenses does NOT mean they're insured. There are millions of people here without insurance. We have to carry "uninsured motorist" insurance to cover their POS @sses. :mad:

So many of the criminal aliens have falsified/stolen IDs and licenses it's hard to figure out anything. I say arrest/deport them all. And NO chance for legal re-entry. :mad:

Obama wanting to give CRIMINAL ILLEGAL ALIENS licenses is pathetic. So is he. :mad:

Criminal aliens are here because they want to better themselves not because they intensionally want to ruin the economy. They will be here whether you want them to or not. Since they are already driving here we can at least make them drive legaly. BTW, I see Obama way ahead and far intelectually superior to the republican candidates. The republican candidates are the pathetic ones.

Most of them are not going to buy insurance. They're driving crapmobiles that are eyesores. They are parasites and just suck us dry. They send their money to other countries. When they get into accidents they just pretend they don't speak English and the police let them go.:mad:

Yes, because we all know that just pretending you dont speak english will get you out of everything. :rolleyes:

Criminal aliens are here because they want to better themselves not because they intensionally want to ruin the economy. They will be here whether you want them to or not. Since they are already driving here we can at least make them drive legaly. BTW, I see Obama way ahead and far intelectually superior to the republican candidates. The republican candidates are the pathetic ones.

Rapists will be out doing their thing whether you want them to or not. Since they are already raping folks here, we can at least make it legal for them to do, right?

Criminal aliens are here because they want to better themselves not because they intensionally want to ruin the economy. They will be here whether you want them to or not. Since they are already driving here we can at least make them drive legaly. BTW, I see Obama way ahead and far intelectually superior to the republican candidates. The republican candidates are the pathetic ones.

No. They're here to "retake the southwest". Go look on their websites and orgs--especially LaRaza. Did you see them protesting in the big cities? Better themselves my @ss. Did you see them flying our flag upside down UNDER theirs? :mad:

Romney kicks Obama's @ss. In EVERY way! :yay:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Mitt+Romney&word2=Barack+Hussein++Obama

:yay:

That proves nothing. I've talked with illegal aliens, who have kids in the US! They are here because they knew that the US would bring them a better life. Go to Mexico and you will understand what I am talking about.

The republicans as I see it, are just a bunch of whiny stuges insulting each other and talking about how they are going to win. That will get us nowhere.

That proves nothing. I've talked with illegal aliens, who have kids in the US! They are here because they knew that the US would bring them a better life. Go to Mexico and you will understand what I am talking about. The republicans as I see it, are just a bunch of whiny stuges insulting each other and talking about how they are going to win. That will get us nowhere.

Those people suck! :mad: You KNOW they're here illegally and you do nothing? I would have the feds on the phone in a heartbeat if I even suspected someone was a criminal alien. I have no desire to go to the hellhole that is Mexico. UGH. :puke: Their residents need to rise up and make it better instead of living under their corrupt government. Most of the people are cowards who would rather slither into the USA than come legally.

The criminal aliens STEAL their "better lives" here at the cost of the U.S. taxpayer. We want them gone. :mad:

What is a "stuges"?

And if you want to see insults watch Hillary, Obama, and McCain. THEY got personal. Mitt Romney didn't.

Those people suck! You KNOW they're here illegally and you do nothing? I would have the feds on the phone in a heartbeat if I even suspected someone was a criminal alien. I have no desire to go to the hellhole that is Mexico. UGH. :puke: Their residents need to rise up and make it better instead of living under their corrupt government. Most of the people are cowards who would rather slither into the USA than come legally.

The criminal aliens STEAL their "better lives" here at the cost of the U.S. taxpayer. We want them gone. :mad:

What is a "stuges"?

And if you want to see insults watch Hillary, Obama, and McCain. THEY got personal. Mitt Romney didn't.



Bush budget scraps 9,790 border patrol agents
President uses law's escape clause to drop funding for new homeland security force

02-09) 04:00 PST Washington -- The law signed by President Bush less than two months ago to add thousands of border patrol agents along the U.S.-Mexico border has crashed into the reality of Bush's austere federal budget proposal, officials said Tuesday.

Officially approved by Bush on Dec. 17 after extensive bickering in Congress, the National Intelligence Reform Act included the requirement to add 10,000 border patrol agents in the five years beginning with 2006. Roughly 80 percent of the agents were to patrol the southern U.S. border from Texas to California, along which thousands of people cross into the United States illegally every year.

But Bush's proposed 2006 budget, revealed Monday, funds only 210 new border agents

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/02/09/MNGOKB837T1.DTL

Bush is the greatest evah! :yay:

Those people suck! You KNOW they're here illegally and you do nothing? I would have the feds on the phone in a heartbeat if I even suspected someone was a criminal alien. I have no desire to go to the hellhole that is Mexico. UGH. :puke: Their residents need to rise up and make it better instead of living under their corrupt government. Most of the people are cowards who would rather slither into the USA than come legally.

The criminal aliens STEAL their "better lives" here at the cost of the U.S. taxpayer. We want them gone. :mad:

What is a "stuges"?

And if you want to see insults watch Hillary, Obama, and McCain. THEY got personal. Mitt Romney didn't.

While Minuteman civilian patrols are keeping an eye out for illegal border crossers, the U.S. Border Patrol is keeping an eye out for Minutemen — and telling the Mexican government where they are.

According to three documents on the Mexican Secretary of Foreign Relations Web site, the U.S. Border Patrol is to notify the Mexican government as to the location of Minutemen and other civilian border patrol groups when they participate in apprehending illegal immigrants — and if and when violence is used against border crossers.

Now we know why it seemed like Mexican officials knew where we were all the time,” said Chris Simcox, founder of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. “It’s unbelievable that our own government agency is sending intelligence to another country. They are sending intelligence to a nation where corruption runs rampant, and that could be getting into the hands of criminal cartels.

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/05/09/our-border-patrolor-mexicos/

Bush is the greastest Evah! :yay:

Those people suck! You KNOW they're here illegally and you do nothing? I would have the feds on the phone in a heartbeat if I even suspected someone was a criminal alien. I have no desire to go to the hellhole that is Mexico. UGH. :puke: Their residents need to rise up and make it better instead of living under their corrupt government. Most of the people are cowards who would rather slither into the USA than come legally.

The criminal aliens STEAL their "better lives" here at the cost of the U.S. taxpayer. We want them gone. :mad:

What is a "stuges"?

And if you want to see insults watch Hillary, Obama, and McCain. THEY got personal. Mitt Romney didn't.


Mexicans Hire Bush Advisor to Stop Border Security
Jim Kouri, CPP

By Jim Kouri, CPP
September 26, 2006

In a move that has many proponents of tough US border security and illegal immigration reforms scratching their heads in puzzlement, Mexican President Vincente Fox recently retained the services of a well-known Republican strategist to help stop the rising tide of public outcry over poor border security and rampant illegal immigration.

President Fox reportedly rehired the public relations man and GOP political consultant who is credited with helping Fox win the presidency in 2000. Fox wants Rob Allyn to curtail what he perceives as a growing anti-immigration political juggernaut, especially when it comes to illegal aliens from Mexico.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/13972

Bush is the greatest evah!:yay:

Those people suck! You KNOW they're here illegally and you do nothing? I would have the feds on the phone in a heartbeat if I even suspected someone was a criminal alien. I have no desire to go to the hellhole that is Mexico. UGH. :puke: Their residents need to rise up and make it better instead of living under their corrupt government. Most of the people are cowards who would rather slither into the USA than come legally.

The criminal aliens STEAL their "better lives" here at the cost of the U.S. taxpayer. We want them gone. :mad:

What is a "stuges"?

And if you want to see insults watch Hillary, Obama, and McCain. THEY got personal. Mitt Romney didn't.

Earlier this month, Bush made reference to "doubling the size of the Border Patrol during my administration."

There's just one problem. Not only has the Border Patrol not been doubled during his administration, the White House has fought against significant increases in its budget every year since 2001. Actually, the Border Patrol was growing faster during the Clinton administration – before Sept. 11, 2001 – than it has since 9-11. The Clinton administration increased the Border Patrol from 4,026 in 1993 to 9,078 when they left office in 2001, an increase of 5,052 agents or 125 percent. Bush has increased the manpower from 9,078 to the 11,800 we have today, an increase of 2,722 agents or 30 percent.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50796

Bush is the greatest evah! :yay:

Rapists will be out doing their thing whether you want them to or not. Since they are already raping folks here, we can at least make it legal for them to do, right?

You fail at analogies. Rape is harmful to the victim. Driving doesn't even *have* a victim. Licensing a rapist would be absurd because there is no "good way" to rape, it's always bad. There is a "good way" to drive (in fact driving is, on average, a huge net boon to society). Licensing drivers makes sense because it helps the states offset the consequences of people with poor driving skills being on the road.

Whether the driver is a law-abiding father of four, a burglar or an illegal alien, it's is still best that—when driving—that person know the rules of the road and have a certain competency.

The is also no "good way" of being an illegal immigrant, but that doesn't stop you.

The is also no "good way" of being an illegal immigrant, but that doesn't stop you.

I agree with that. Again though, the point of licensing is not to endorse being here illegally. Rapists are legally allowed to get driver's licenses...that does not mean the States are "endorsing" rape.

Criminal aliens driving DUI have killed more innocent Americans than the war in Iraq. :mad:

http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/?p=999

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55965

:mad: :mad:

Criminal aliens driving DUI have killed more innocent Americans than the war in Iraq.

http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/?p=999

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55965

:mad: :mad:

So maybe we should be spending billions of dollars a day stopping them instead of killing people overseas. :shrug:

So maybe we should be spending billions of dollars a day stopping them instead of killing people overseas. :shrug:

The only people we're killing overseas are evil muslim terrorists. THEY started it.
We're already spending a fortune trying to keep them out. They're sneaky. Like roaches. And when we arrest/deport them, they sneak back in. :(

It is just a shame that the Rio Grane isn't treated more like the Yalu River.

A carefully considered response ,as usual.

THEY started it

Have we really resorted to 1st grade retorts as a reason for war? :bugeye: And no, They (Iraq) didnt start it, they just got the shit bombed out of them for someone elses political and financial gain. We could build a 50ft tall concrete barrier along the border to mexico easily for what the iraq war has cost us. Just seems like a waste to me.

Criminal aliens driving DUI have killed more innocent Americans than the war in Iraq. :mad:

http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/?p=999

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55965

:mad: :mad:

Illegal aliens will still drive drunk (even if licensed). So will legal 10th generation Americans. Drunk driving is a problem, but it does not cut for or against the licensing plan in the abstract any more than it does when it comes to licensing American citizens and legal residents.

The only people we're killing overseas are evil muslim terrorists. THEY started it.
We're already spending a fortune trying to keep them out. They're sneaky. Like roaches. And when we arrest/deport them, they sneak back in. :(

That's not true. The US backed Saddam until it no longer suited them. Then Bush invaded that country having lied about WMS. A link between Iraq and 9/11 has never been shown. But don't let the truth get in the way.

Something like a million Iraqis died as a result of the invasion. Your brave military dropped wave after wave of bombs from the safety of theit planes, killing innocent men, women and children on the ground. Get real.

Illegal aliens will still drive drunk (even if licensed). So will legal 10th generation Americans. Drunk driving is a problem, but it does not cut for or against the licensing plan in the abstract any more than it does when it comes to licensing American citizens and legal residents.

If you are waiting for a sensible response from Sandy, don't hold your brteath.

Have we really resorted to 1st grade retorts as a reason for war? And no, They (Iraq) didnt start it, they just got the shit bombed out of them for someone elses political and financial gain. We could build a 50ft tall concrete barrier along the border to mexico easily for what the iraq war has cost us. Just seems like a waste to me.

Evil muslim terrorists started it in '79. We WILL finish it. :bravo:
Evil muslim terrorists are killing more in Iraq than our troops. In fact, they killed almost 17,000 innocent Iraqi civilians last year. 225 people were killed collaterally in incidents involving our troops and Islamic terrorists. Let's get the facts straight about who's b*mbing who. :(

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm

That's not true. The US backed Saddam until it no longer suited them. Then Bush invaded that country having lied about WMS. A link between Iraq and 9/11 has never been shown. But don't let the truth get in the way.Something like a million Iraqis died as a result of the invasion. Your brave military dropped wave after wave of bombs from the safety of theit planes, killing innocent men, women and children on the ground. Get real.

Bull. I shouldn't even bother responding to your vile personal attacks but you have NO concept of this war. None. Evil muslim terrorists are killing all the innocent Iraqis. Do your freakin homework. :(

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm

Bull. I shouldn't even bother responding to your vile personal attacks but you have NO concept of this war. None. Evil muslim terrorists are killing all the innocent Iraqis. Do your freakin homework. :(

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm

Where do you get your news ? You obviously don't listen to radio around the world or you would know better. I think I am better informed about the outcome of your invasion than you are. Do you know about Sunnis, Shi'tes and Kurds ? You sowed the seeds of civil war by bringing "democracy" to people who neither wanted it nor were ready for it.

While Bush bangs on about liberty, you are rightly perceived as bullys abroad.

Iraq is full of crimnal alien Americans who will have to remain there for years despite what is said in Washington.

Bull. I shouldn't even bother responding to your vile personal attacks but you have NO concept of this war. None. Evil muslim terrorists are killing all the innocent Iraqis. Do your freakin homework. :(

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm

The al Qaeda army has 12,000 fighters in Iraq, and they have vowed to die for God's sake," a man who identified himself as Abu Hamza al-Muhajir said in an audio tape released Friday. He also claimed to have another 10,000 unequipped fighters ready to go into battle.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/10/iraq/main2170851.shtml

Bush can't even get rid of 12,000 terrorists. He's had 5 years to do it. You know why he can't defeat 12,000 terrorists in 5 years? Because he's teh best evah! :yay:

Evil muslim terrorists started it in '79. We WILL finish it. :bravo:
Evil muslim terrorists are killing more in Iraq than our troops. In fact, they killed almost 17,000 innocent Iraqi civilians last year. 225 people were killed collaterally in incidents involving our troops and Islamic terrorists. Let's get the facts straight about who's b*mbing who. :(

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm

And where do these evil terrorists hide? Well they hide among innocent people, and unelss I am mistaken and we have some magical new bomb that only targets terrorist I'm pretty sure we would have to drop bombs on places where innocent people are living as well. /just sayin

Evil muslim terrorists started it in '79. We WILL finish it. :bravo:

If you think it started in '79, then I think it could be said that the U.S. and Britain started it when they masterminded the 1953 Iranian coup ("Operation Ajax"). Nice to know that we will finish it though.

We have enough Obama threads so I won't start another one. But do you all remember when Obama lied and said he "was the product of an interracial marriage made possible by the march on Selma”…:rolleyes:

“There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born. So don’t tell me I don’t have a claim on Selma, Alabama. Don’t tell me I’m not coming home to Selma, Alabama.”

Nice story, except for the fact that it’s a lie. Bloody Sunday happened on March 7, 1965. Obama, Jr. was born August 4, 1961, four years earlier. :rolleyes:

When confronted with the lie, Obama’s campaign spun it like a ceiling fan on high speed…Obama was born in 1961, four years before the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. But spokesman Bill Burton said Obama was “speaking metaphorically about the civil rights movement as a whole.”

Yeah, it’s a metaphor for “you’re lying your ass off.” :mad:

http://www.texasrainmaker.com/?s=red+cross&paged=2

:yay:We have enough Obama threads so I won't start another one. But do you all remember when Obama lied and said he "was the product of an interracial marriage made possible by the march on Selma”…

“There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born. So don’t tell me I don’t have a claim on Selma, Alabama. Don’t tell me I’m not coming home to Selma, Alabama.”

Nice story, except for the fact that it’s a lie. Bloody Sunday happened on March 7, 1965. Obama, Jr. was born August 4, 1961, four years earlier.

When confronted with the lie, Obama’s campaign spun it like a ceiling fan on high speed…Obama was born in 1961, four years before the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. But spokesman Bill Burton said Obama was “speaking metaphorically about the civil rights movement as a whole.”

Yeah, it’s a metaphor for “you’re lying your ass off.” :mad:

http://www.texasrainmaker.com/?s=red+cross&paged=2

Millions More Illegal Immigrants?

The DSCC ad claims “millions more illegal immigrants” have entered the country. This is true. According to the best estimates we can find, millions of illegal immigrants have indeed entered the United States since 2001. According to the federal Immigration and Naturalization Service, there were an estimated 7 million illegal immigrants living in the United States in Jan 2000. Two years later the Urban Institute estimated the illegal immigrant population to be 9.3 million. Most recently, Jeffrey S. Passel, a Senior Research Associate with Pew Hispanic Center and a contributor to the Urban Institute’s 2002 study, conducted a study which estimated the illegal immigrant population to be between 11.5 and 12 million people. That implies a minimum 4.4 million increase from the INS’s Jan 2000 estimate.


I just love Bush, thanks to him, we've had 4.4 million more illegal immigrants since he took office. :yay:

Criminal aliens driving DUI have killed more innocent Americans than the war in Iraq. :mad:

http://frontpage.americandaughter.com/?p=999

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55965

:mad:


Then maybe you would agree with me that the US needs to introduce random breath testing???:cool:

Then maybe you would agree with me that the US needs to introduce random breath testing???:cool:

We already have a version of that. Probably would be a good idea, though. I would rather arrest/deport all of them.

you have a version of it?

Everytime i have mentioned it i have been told it breaches the 5th amendment (think it was the 5th).
interesting

you have a version of it?

Everytime i have mentioned it i have been told it breaches the 5th amendment (think it was the 5th).
interesting

Police pull over people they suspect of DUI. They can do a field sobriety test if they want. They can ask the driver to blow if they want. It's all up to the officer and their discretion. They especially use this around holidays.

sandy have a look at the Random breath test thread in ethics

The police in victoria will breath test ANYONE who is stoped for any reason and futher more they will block off a road for a few hours and breath test everyone who goes past

Great idea. With so many DUI deaths, I would support that 100%.

there were only 35 deaths in victoria in 2006 where the driver was 0.05 or above

In the same time period

In 2006, Victoria Police breath tested 1.37 million drivers and riders from Booze Bus operations. Over 5,500 drivers and riders were caught with an illegal blood alcohol concentration (BAC) over this period.

for the sorce read the random breath testing thread

Now Obama wants to hold a summit with Middle Eastern leaders to "discuss the misunderstandings and gaps between the muslim world and the West." :eek:

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=213031

We don't "talk" to the enemy. We don't negotiate with the enemy. We don't coddle terrorists. We don't negotiate with terrorists. WTF is wrong with this moron? Weakness.... That will work. Not.:mad:

Now Obama wants to hold a summit with Middle Eastern leaders to "discuss the misunderstandings and gaps between the muslim world and the West" ....

.... We don't "talk" to the enemy. We don't negotiate with the enemy. We don't coddle terrorists. We don't negotiate with terrorists.

So ... all the Muslim leaders in the Middle East are our enemies? They're all terrorists?

What would you call the likes of Iminajihad who openly says he will destroy Israel and the USA?:confused:

What would you call the likes of Iminajihad who openly says he will destroy Israel and the USA?

Do you ever answer a question honestly, Sandy? I asked if all the Muslim leaders in the Middle East are our enemies, and you respond with your childish mocking of one guy who our two-bit Moron in Chief made a point of calling out?

You can do better than that ... can't you?

Let's try again: Are all the Muslim leaders in the Middle East are our enemies?

...you respond with your childish mocking...

That's it. I'm done responding to your personal attacks. :(

Obama was just named most liberal senator in Washington in 2007. :eek:

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Gosh, let's vote for him for president. :(