I have always has this underlying curiosity (or you can call it sneaking suspicion, maybe) that the God(s) of the Old Testament is/are the force(s) of Nature.

My idea is that the book was written strictly to be read as parables that underline a philosophy of the structure of a society that was designed to succeed not only with man living in harmony with each other, but in harmony (or obeying) nature's laws.

I haven't dedicated the time and effort yet to apply this to all the verses in the Bible (strictly Old Testament) but I have, from time to time, considered how well Nature (or specific forces of nature) would fit in in place of God(s).

It seems to fit pretty well.

Has anyone else ever thought of this?
Has anyone taken the time to try and apply the theory to the whole (or at least much of the) Bible?

Any thoughts on this?

The old testament shows a glimpse into the culture and history of the chosen people of God. The Jewish people. God in the old testament has many different names that define a characteristic of God, but has nothing to do with the forces of nature. Please review the different names of God in the Old testament and then apply your thoughts.

Yes , and one name specifically : I AM .

I think you are taking the right path Raven , I do some similar thing with Islam , especially within the borders of Sufi . The deal amplified there is that God=everything , and I think this can deducted into Everything=Existence .

I am that I am shows relevance to this point .

If you care to post some things you have researched , please do I am very interested to study some of it . Do you use Hebrewic tetxs ?

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. "
-Frank Lloyd Wright

Frank Lloyd Wright can't spell very good... God G-O-D .. Nature N-A-T-U-R-E.

Anyway though...Yes , and one name specifically : I AM

I think the whole point of I AM was an introduction to Gods people. God told moses I AM who I AM, tell the children of Israel I AM sent me to you.. The first name that God told Moses was Hayah. Hebrew word meaning I AM. The second name God told moses was YHWH. The original manuscripts left out the vowels. Many have believed this to be Yahweh. (LORD). If you want to know who God was, follow the old testament names of God..

I am Jehovah Jireh -Provider
I am Jehovah Rapha - Healer
I am Jehovah Shalom -Peace
I am Jehovah Ra-ah -Shepherd
I am Jehovah tsidkenu -Righteousness


the list goes on... He never says I am Jehovah Nature(don't know the original text for Nature)

I think the whole point of I AM was an introduction to Gods people

I dont think we are to speak of matters like "introduction" , its not a movie .

Seconly , I believe the statement of I AM is an ontological one . I do not believe you can play the Bible out like this in movies , there was no voice (as it is) nor deity that revealed itself I AM . It was ontologic existance itself that was revealed . Mussa understood that IS=God .

Islam shares the attributes as well , there even is numerological relevance with the names of Allah , proving that Allah=1 .

1=existence , in Arabic this , meams HU . AllaHU = Allah IS .

HU=Hayah

http://www.creationdays.dk/withoutformandvoid/XI.html

God told moses I AM who I AM

Can you provide the accurate Hebrewic scripture so we can deal with it ?

There is no WHO , its THAT . I am THAT I am .

He never says I am Jehovah Nature

Whats the Hebrewic word for nature ? Anyways its irellevant , nature is just part of existence , not existance itself . Something can exist unnatural , is unnatural not from God ? Everything is from God .

All those conclusions from the one statement, I'm who I'm. It means in blunt terms, don't ask me who I am again Moses, because you'll never understand....That's it no ifs or buts. If god wanted to explain to us who he is, he would have found better words and easier description, but he doesn't so he told us he is what he is and that's the end of discussion.

And let's see Jihad is giving Arabic grammer lessons now. He doesn't even know arabic and is indulging in giving lessons in the most difficult language....Very nice.

Allahu is Alla + HU...whatever Jihad, that's just shit.

Allah in arabic is written like Alif Lam Lam Heh, there is no Waw at the end to make it sound like HU. When the term Allahum is used, it's usually a human addressing god and not god addressing itself, it means, god yourself.

This is like the christian belief that base it's entire belief system on one verse that states that jesus and god is one or Jesus is the son of god. How can one base their entire phylosophy on a couple of liners......And worse, how can one think that they are in the right tract by trying to play the grammer game to understand god.

This is like the christian belief that base it's entire belief system on one verse that states that jesus and god is one or Jesus is the son of god. How can one base their entire phylosophy on a couple of liners......And worse, how can one think that they are in the right tract by trying to play the grammer game to understand god.

Jesus refers several times to Isaiah. Isaiah is clear that God is our only savior and teacher. However Jesus refers to himself in these terms. Jesus also says that his disciples will not fast when the bridegroom is gone. Another referance to Isaiah where Jerusalem marries its maker.

there was no voice (as it is) nor deity that revealed itself I AM

God spoke audibly to some people in the old testament. Ill site if you'd like. I am that I am is a better translation...sorry about that.

and that's the end of discussion.

People who end their sentences like this are usually very simple minded .

:D

And let's see Jihad is giving Arabic grammer lessons now. He doesn't even know arabic and is indulging in giving lessons in the most difficult language....Very nice.

Do I need to know the entire language to know one aspect ? On the other hand , you cant read shit from Qu'ran (xcept for those modern-arabic-used letters) and you have all these imaginations that you know stuff ...... thats just a laugh . I know that I know shit , you dont know even that . Im just trying to discover and learn , I suggest you do the same .

Allahu is Alla + HU...whatever Jihad, that's just shit.

Then spell it out please .

Spell out Allahu Ahad , Allahu Samed . I have explained in the other thread , you dont answer , but you DO have comments ? What bullshit is this ?

Allah in arabic is written like Alif Lam Lam Heh, there is no Waw at the end to make it sound like HU.

As if you need Waw to make it sound HU . See the above and please spell it out , not just Allah . Allahu Akbar . Are you telling me Ahmad Hulussi made up HU ? There's no HU ? He's just a crazy Turk who never saw Arabic , and makes up HU , right ?

Dont play dummy , I know thats your deal , but its not working . You tried that same thing with Ummah , it didnt work . Please , get real here ......

When the term Allahum is used, it's usually a human addressing god and not god addressing itself, it means, god yourself.

Finally we are getting somewhere . I understand it is a human , but why is it "adressing" , he's just stating . Allahu Ahad , Allahu Samad , Allahu Akbar

So please explain me how the "Hu" (obviously it is there , otherwise it would be Allah-Akbar , but thats not what Im saying , I dont think thats what you're saying either ) is exactly translated . Its wrong to translate it into "He" or "Who" as conventional translations do , doesnt by using "Hu" one state "existence" of something , "IS" .

Check out the Hebrew as well , btw . Its quite similar .

How can one base their entire phylosophy on a couple of liners......And worse, how can one think that they are in the right tract by trying to play the grammer game to understand god.

Its the most profound defintion given of God , and the very first revealed to Mozes , come'on now ......its not like some odinary maybe even irellevent verse , its the theological essence right there , what the hell can be more relevant than that ?

As for Grammar , its written for Gods sake , what else do you want to use to understand it ? Sign-language ? Gods essence doesnt depend on some Grammar ...DUH !! , but that grammar REVEALS it to peoples , and you deny it because it cant contain the essence ? What a joke , you might as well throw away your book then lady . Just go sit in your chair and "believe" , have "faith" .

Maybe Jesus Christ comes to save you too
:rolleyes:

God spoke audibly to some people in the old testament. Ill site if you'd like. I am that I am is a better translation...sorry about that.

That is the interpertation of the scriptures , unfortunatly I dont believe in super-beings so I dont hold God=super-being definition like y'all do . And a non-being cannot "speak" audibly now can it ? Now it seems you peoples dont wanna understand that something can be written down poetically with amazing messages in various ways , and just some literal "schoolplay" interpertation of it .

So please , give me the verses and translations , and I will try to figure it out , and explain it based on theological concepts that differ from a super-creature .

Originally posted by Quigly
Frank Lloyd Wright can't spell very good... God G-O-D .. Nature N-A-T-U-R-E.
Frank Lloyd Wright On God and Nature:

"God is the great mysterious motivator of what we call nature, and it has been said often by philosophers, that nature is the will of God. And, I prefer to say that nature is the only body of God that we shall ever see. If we wish to know the truth concerning anything, we'll find it in the nature of that thing"

"Nature is my manifestation of God. I go to nature every day for inspiration in the day's work. I follow in building the principles which nature has used in its domain"

"Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature. It will never fail you"

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Whats the Hebrewic word for nature ?
IIRC - teva is the Hebrew word for nature.

Evil : Thanks for the Hebrew .....say you happen to know some good translator sites for ancient languages , that doesnt only use the original symbols but also europeans ?

Also , do you know any relevant mention of teva in the Torah etc ?

And finally , if God would hold only nature , then what about all unnatural existence ? Just nature seems so ............. hippy :(

Figuring out that the Earth is the only God there has ever been, in the creative sense, seems to me about as dificult as deducing that fire is hot.

Calling any of the many bibles "metaphoric" is like calling a whip "motivational"

Gosh, I'm really full of simile today :m:

Figuring out that the Earth is the only God there has ever been, in the creative sense, seems to me about as dificult as deducing that fire is hot.

Why just the earth ? Is the earth the only existence there is ? Doesnt anything beside earth exist ?

Then why I am that I am , why not I am just Earth ?

Calling any of the many bibles "metaphoric" is like calling a whip "motivational"

Really not getting your point nor intention

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
And finally , if God would hold only nature , then what about all unnatural existence ? Just nature seems so ............. hippy :(

then:

Why just the earth ? Is the earth the only existence there is ? Doesnt anything beside earth exist ?

Who sounds.......hippy?

And exactly what part of your existence is beyond Earth, except for your imagination? You can imagine Alpha Centauri, but we know where you live.

As for my intentions.....LOL......ironic choice of words. Intent is exactly what I'm talking about. The intent of scripture.....mental slavery and fear.

I didn't coin the term "God-fearing person", nor do I have much respect for anyone who dons it willingly.

And exactly what part of your existence is beyond Earth, except for your imagination? You can imagine Alpha Centauri, but we know where you live.

How about the Sun ? Or the Moon ? I dont think you know where I live , and I have absolutely no clue on Alpha Centauri ....

As for my intentions.....LOL......ironic choice of words. Intent is exactly what I'm talking about. The intent of scripture.....mental slavery and fear.

How exactly do you gain awareness on the intent , just by knowing how idiots react to it ? Yes they are mentally enslaved , but by scriptures or by their fairytale-leaders ?

My point is that :
1)Its seriously to retarded to let a bunch of deity-worshippers reflect the intentions of ancient scriptures through their reactions to it .

2)Even if intentions would be sucky , that doesnt mean we cant get knowledge out of it that they didnt intend , but that IS there .

I didn't coin the term "God-fearing person", nor do I have much respect for anyone who dons it willingly.

Neither do I , and probably neither is our understanding of it intended within the scriptures , why does everybody claim somuch knowledge on the scriptures , there's not one person in here that has actually seen the scriptures to know what the hell its about anyways .

Who sounds.......hippy?

You , I would equalize the concept of God to everything that has existed and that will ever exist , while you only link it to earth (nature) , it makes me think of flowers and woods and all that hippy-shit .

How about the Sun ? Or the Moon ? I dont think you know where I live , and I have absolutely no clue on Alpha Centauri .... I know where you live. All that your mind is capable of has a location. Do you reject that you are matter? You live with me, here, now. How exactly do you gain awareness on the intent , just by knowing how idiots react to it ? Yes they are mentally enslaved , but by scriptures or by their fairytale-leaders ? If any or all religious scripture was written with benevolent intent, I don't know. I guess I dont really care about scripture (I love the Tao, though). Books don't bother me. Religions bother me. Neither do I , and probably neither is our understanding of it intended within the scriptures , why does everybody claim somuch knowledge on the scriptures , there's not one person in here that has actually seen the scriptures to know what the hell its about anyways . So we agree. What do we disagree about, again?I would equalize the concept of God to everything that has existed and that will ever exist , while you only link it to earth (nature) , it makes me think of flowers and woods and all that hippy-shit . !!! 1)I only relate a god-Earth because of the creationistic reality 2)Do you realize how hilarious it is to say "everything that has existed and will exist" and "hippy-shit" in the same breath? Do you have a Tom Brokaw version of the 60's engrained into you? What do you think a "hippy" is? An LSD addict with chronic Chlamydia?

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Evil : Thanks for the Hebrew .....
You're welcome. :)
say you happen to know some good translator sites for ancient languages , that doesnt only use the original symbols but also europeans ?
The only sites I know of are these:

Omniglot - a guide to written language (http://www.omniglot.com/index.htm)

Endangered Language Repository (http://www.yourdictionary.com/elr/index.html)

Also , do you know any relevant mention of teva in the Torah etc ?
"The Hebrew word for nature is "Teva". "Teva" has two connotations that may help us gain an insight into the nature of nature. "Teva" implies drowning or sinking, because we are sunken into and swallowed up by this physical world.

"Teva" also is related to the word "matbeah" - coin - referring to a coin that has an image impressed upon it. Similarly the natural world impresses; so much so that our senses are so stimulated that any inkling of anything beyond is naturally overwhelmed." [More... (http://www.torah.org/learning/dvartorah/5763/chanukah.html)]

And finally , if God would hold only nature , then what about all unnatural existence ? Just nature seems so ............. hippy
Maybe Jesus was the original hippy. I mean afterall, lots of other concepts are borrowed why not that one? ;)

77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things.
I am all: from me all has come forth, and to me all has
reached . Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the
stone, and you will find me there." -Gospel Of Thomas

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Do you use Hebrewic tetxs ? :(

Help!
\
How do I unsubscribe to a thread?

filibuster

All that your mind is capable of has a location.

It would seem so , yet I have no proof of that . My mind is capable in creating the illusion of location (space) .

Do you reject that you are matter?

Not really....yet my mind seems to be something not really representing its matter , nor is my Self .

Books don't bother me. Religions bother me.

Perhaps just peoples

So we agree. What do we disagree about, again?

You put your emphasis of dis-agreement on scriptures while I am putting it on idiot peoples who are translating and interperting those scriptures and fantasise all sorts of things in their interest along with it .

I only relate a god-Earth because of the creationistic reality

creationist reality ? Existence is self-creative my friend .....

2)Do you realize how hilarious it is to say "everything that has existed and will exist" and "hippy-shit" in the same breath?

No I do not

Do you have a Tom Brokaw version of the 60's engrained into you?

I dont even know the guy

What do you think a "hippy" is? An LSD addict with chronic Chlamydia?

Something like that . A smelly ugly longhaired tree-lover ....

The only sites I know of are these:

Thanks for the sites , but I dont think they translate into european written symbols as well (for instance like "teva") .

Does anyone know of such translations with Arabic and Hebrew specifically ? I cant read the symbols :(

"Teva" implies drowning or sinking, because we are sunken into and swallowed up by this physical world.

Teva" also is related to the word "matbeah" - coin - referring to a coin that has an image impressed upon it. Similarly the natural world impresses; so much so that our senses are so stimulated that any inkling of anything beyond is naturally overwhelmed."

Things like this give my methods for understanding ancient semitic scriptures lots of potency and hope :)

77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things.
I am all: from me all has come forth, and to me all has
reached . Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the
stone, and you will find me there." -Gospel Of Thomas

Yes Isa knew how things worked :)

What I meant was the exclusion of nature from existence , you know plants trees etc ....while it is EVERYTHING tat should be considered , like that what there is when a rock is lifted as Isa speaks .

Consequent Atheist , anything you wanna say ? U liked it better if it said Hbrw txt ?

Originally posted by one_raven
It seems to fit pretty well.

Has anyone else ever thought of this?
Has anyone taken the time to try and apply the theory to the whole (or at least much of the) Bible?

Any thoughts on this?
YES!!!
Exactly, I only recently thought of it though, it fits perfectly. Particularly genesis.

Heres what I think has happened. We all know that each book of the bible was written at different times, it wasn't just one piece of work from start to finish.
I think it is obvious that genesis was meant as a fable, I think it was written by an extremely profound philosopher, for the time(maybe the absolute dawn of civilisation, maybe he experienced the transition from hunter gatherer to civilisation) who was just symbolically telling the story of the history of the world.

The way it was written lead to future generations misinterpretting. Whoever wrote it did so in a way to make god seem like a man itself in order to make it easier to understand. Fables do this all the time. But people started thinking god really was this devine thing looking over them and they added on to the story over time. You can't blame them, genesis was the only thing they had that gave them "answers" as to why they were here which is a natural curiosity for the homo-sapien species, and if they interpretted it in the way they wanted they could make everything seem like it mattered. But the original author never intended for this, it was just a clever little tale.

The garden of eden was perfect, it was the world before man came about. Adam and eve or early man had the chance to live perfectly in this perfect world without sin and they did for a while(ie hunting and gathering... living like the animals) but they "bit the apple". What I see that as symbolizing is the rise of civilisation, the abandoning of nature. This gave man the ability to "sin", he now had a great responsibility because he had become his own god and was setting himself up to be the god of all things. Before "god" (or nature) was taking care of everything, but man took himself out of natures grasp.

It is not so unbelievable that one wise old man could notice this change and tell a story to paint the picture for everyone else. If he had been a hunter and gatherer himself he would have perhaps very much respected the way things were and seen "evil" in this new civilisation stuff.

Anything after the original story should not be paid attention to because it just so happens that they totally misunderstood what the original author was on about, and in reality just blew a whole heap of hot air about nothing for centuries. And whats really amusing is people lived their whole lives by a misinterpretation for centuries and still do.
At least that what I think of the whole thing.

Dr Lou,
My thinking was similar.


The book of Genesis can also, perhaps be seen as the development and life of man.
Not of mankind as a species, but the development of an individual.

The eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (it kind of annoys me when people refer to it as an apple, sorry) represents the end of innocence.
As in a child.
A child is innocent because he does not know what is right and what is wrong, but once he understands that, then he can be judged by his actions.
Since the child now knows the consequenses of his actions, he must be held accountable and accept responsibility for those actions.

Innocence, once lost, can't be regained.
Once someone knows the difference between right and wrong, he can no longer be shielded by ignorance.
Along those same lines, once you learn that someday you will die, you can never un-learn that.
When you are ignorant of mortality, you are (at least in your own mind) immortal.
Hence, the tree of life.
When they are banished from the immortal paradise of Eden, it represents them gaining knowedge of mortality.

A child learns the difference between good and evil and understands the implications of that.
With that understanding you also gain the ability to choose whether you will be good or evil.

Hence, knowedge gives us the gift of free will.

With knowledge comes power.
With power comes responsibility.

It was this thinking that made me start considering the Bible not as a book outlining the history of mankind, but as a book outlining the development and life of individual man.

I know I sound like I am running around in circles with this, but as I said, I haven't applied this all yet, it has just been a trickle in the back of my mind for years, and I haven't quite found a way to word it eloquently yet.
(So much for thinking with words, huh? ;))

(Edited the first line to clarify that I don't think this is the only option. It can very well be seen as the development of mankind and his role on earth as well. I just haven't made my mind up yet, and wanted to show my thought process.)

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Consequent Atheist , anything you wanna say ? Actually, I post here often.

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
U liked it better if it said Hbrw txt ? No. I would simply think you pretentious.

Originally posted by one_raven
Any thoughts on this? El/YHWH's roots in the Ugaritic pantheon suggest that the God of the Torah is a syncretic development rather than allegory or primitive pantheism/panentheism.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
El/YHWH's roots in the Ugaritic pantheon suggest that the God of the Torah is a syncretic development rather than allegory or primitive pantheism/panentheism.

Do you have any information regarding this?
What evidence suggests that he is based on El?

Originally posted by one_raven
Do you have any information regarding this?
What evidence suggests that he is based on El? Do some research into the textual transmission of Deuteronomy 32:8. ;) You might also find Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1RYOTA3EGT&isbn=0674091760&itm=1) by Frank Moore Cross worthwhile.

I will.
Thank you.

one_raven,

I edited my post as you were responding to it. Sorry - slow typist.

Consuequent
No. I would simply think you pretentious.

I must have mis-understood you then , I thought your comment dealt with spelling etc .

Anyways , yes I might be pretentious wanting original Hebrew understanding of things , but dont you think that it is essential with the various mistranslations nowadays ? There are aspects of the Torah (some very essential lines) that really require original semitic understanding .

Dont you think so ? Im affraid otherwise we'll just end up "god-fearing peoples" and such lamo things .

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
There are aspects of the Torah (some very essential lines) that really require original semitic understanding . It's rather hard to find an original semite these days. To what "very essential lines" are you referring?

Originally posted by one_raven
I have always has this underlying curiosity (or you can call it sneaking suspicion, maybe) that the God(s) of the Old Testament is/are the force(s) of Nature.

---

Any thoughts on this?

Sounds like Pantheism to me.

Consequent :
It's rather hard to find an original semite these days. To what "very essential lines" are you referring?

An original semite ? We dont need semites but understanders of semitic languages . Anyways lines like for instance "I am that I am" , I mean you agree with me that some lines have more/less relevance then others from theological perspective ? So I say to understand those correct we need to understand what exactly is written originally . Im not that famillar with Hebrew in this way , but i know with Arabic its a total mess sometimes and it HAS quite some relevance in a correct understanding .

Anyways I think its always best to understand philosophical text in its original language , to un-knowingly depend on translaters might bring you nowehere sometimes .

Originally posted by DJSupreme23
Sounds like Pantheism to me.

Well, yes and no...

It can be seen as a interpetation of Pantheism or as Atheism.

If the Old Testament was written as a guide and a philosophy of life outlining the deveolpment of man and his role in nature and the importance of respecting the power living in harmony with nature it doesn't necessarily mean that nature was revered as a "God", because, like I said, I think it is wholly metaphoric.

The questions is:

Could that have been the misunderstood original intent of the writers of the Old Testament?

As it is currently believed, the writers of the Old Testament did not subscribe to Pantheism or Atheism.
I am suggesting that maybe they did.

Originally posted by DJSupreme23
Sounds like Pantheism to me. The Torah sounds like henotheism to me.

Originally posted by one_raven
As it is currently believed, the writers of the Old Testament did not subscribe to Pantheism or Atheism. I am suggesting that maybe they did. Based on what evidence?

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
The Torah sounds like henotheism to me.
I can definitely see that.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Based on what evidence?
None, really.
Based mostly on conjecture, personal interpretation and interpretations of others.

That is why I posted this here.
I was looking for evidence to either back-up or debunk the idea.

Originally posted by one_raven
I was looking for evidence to either back-up or debunk the idea. How are you doing with Deuteronomy? :)

I don't go online (and try to limit my thinking about this stuff) when I am not at work.
Since I only work 3 - 4 days a week, tonight will be my first chance to look into that and read the article you posted.
I have been looking forward to it since you posted it.

I will let you know what I think.

Consequent,

I didn't realize it's a book.
I thought it was an essay/collection of essays.

Do you know of any site that might have some excperts from it so I can decide whether I should buy it?

Originally posted by one_raven
Consequent,

I didn't realize it's a book.
I thought it was an essay/collection of essays.

Do you know of any site that might have some excperts from it so I can decide whether I should buy it? You might wish to review the Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674091760/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/103-9265140-0214249?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link) site. You may, however, have more fun starting with the Torah.

You may also find this (http://www.facadenovel.com/DT32COOVER.pdf) of interest.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
You may also find this (http://www.facadenovel.com/DT32COOVER.pdf) of interest.

I have my reading for the night set.
Thank you.

(one of these days I will actually do "work" while at work. ;))