NOTE FOR ALL CHRISTIANS:

John 13:35

"35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

1 Corinthians 13:4-10

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. "

Edit to add:

Matthew 5:43-48

"43 You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. "


Note: Eventhough I'm not discussing the subject anymore I won't let my fellow Christians alone. Pray for me brothers, I'm in a very hard situation, eventhough nothing is hard for God. I need a lot of patience and strenght to survive it... :(

Romans 12:17
"17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. "

Proverbs 24:29
"29 Do not say, "Thus I shall do to him as he has done to me;
I will render to the man according to his work."

1 Peter 3:8-12
"8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
10 For,
" THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS,
MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.
11
"HE MUST TURN AWAY FROM EVIL AND DO GOOD;
HE MUST SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.
12
" FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD ARE TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
AND HIS EARS ATTEND TO THEIR PRAYER,
BUT THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THOSE WHO DO EVIL."

1 Thessalonians 5:15
"15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people."

1 Corinthians 13:4
"4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, "

Proverbs 12:6
"6 The words of the wicked lie in wait for blood,
But the mouth of the upright will deliver them. "

Proverbs 12:14
"14 A man will be satisfied with good by the fruit of his words,
And the deeds of a man's hands will return to him. "

I]Proverbs 16:24[/I]
"24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.

Proverbs 18:20
"20 With the fruit of a man's mouth his stomach will be satisfied;
He will be satisfied with the product of his lips. "

Proverbs 14:3
"3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod for his back,
But the lips of the wise will protect them. "


Be carefull with your words, they are very powerfull...

1 John 4:12
"12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. "

Mark 9:37
"37 Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

1 John 3:11
"11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

Acts 27:25
So keep up your courage, men, for I have faith in God that it will happen just as he told me.

1 Corinthians 16:13-14
Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love.

:)

2 Corinthians 4

1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

"Pray for me brothers, I'm in a very hard situation, eventhough nothing is hard for God. I need a lot of patience and strenght to survive it..."
----------------------------------------------

Consider it done.



Romans 5:3-5

'..........but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.'


><>

Thanks guys... :)

Sorry for my butting in but it might be fitting for me to add a little note for non Christians.

Some antiChristians (as opposed to intelligent atheists who only want decent discussion of ideas) might be prompted to post snide comments, and this seems to be a surprisingly spreading thing, almost a fad. I just thought that I'd remind you, drawing on your days as a preschooler, that such remarks will only turn people against you. Regardless of your intent, snide comments will only trigger the natural human response, which will only reinforce any negative conceptions of you the intended target may have had.

Believe me, that kind of behavior only increases hate and gives the rest of your group a bad name. I am disappointed that this should happen in sciforums.

Of course, you might be prompted to insult ME for saying this, but...hmm do I care?

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

:( good grief..but, i hope HE remembers that we are only human, afterall...NOT perfect.

good grief..but, i hope HE remembers that we are only human, afterall...NOT perfect.


Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

John 10:34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

James 3:2
We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Hebrews 10:14
... by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Judgement and unkind words only create judgement and unkind words.

Do not judge and show Love to people by your kind words

Matthew 7:1-2
"1 Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:37
"37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. "

Proverbs 10:19
"19 When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise. "

Proverbs 12:6
"6 The words of the wicked lie in wait for blood, But the mouth of the upright will deliver them. "

Proverbs 12:14
"14 A man will be satisfied with good by the fruit of his words, And the deeds of a man's hands will return to him."

Proverbs 12:25
"25 Anxiety in a man's heart weighs it down, But a good word makes it glad. "

NOTE: If you see whatsupyall saying unkind words to people again, please warn him about what I wrote here. Thanks. :)

Dear Christian friends,

I really need your prayers now. After many misunderstandings between me and a friend there is a threatening that my mission might not be fulfilled by reasons above me. I never talked about my mission before, and I believe it's time to ask for your help. Please hold me kindly in your prayers, always asking God to give me wisdom and to speak through me. If the matters I'm in now become worse I will never be able to preach the Gospel to other people in other countries. Please, ask God for the Truth.

If there are intercessors here, please ask Him soon about what's going on and tell me as soon as possible.

If anyone wants to know more about it we can exchange PMs.

May the Love of God and the fellowship of the Spirit allways be with you.

Whatsupyall,

2 Timothy 2:24-26
"24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. "

TruthSeeker,

I can't look up any bible quotes for you because its packed up in a box (Im moving). I will recite the lords prayer for you.

:)

What is more important? An action or the intention behind it?

Matthew 25:34-46
"34 Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

...also see...

Matthew 7:21-23
"21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "

That's a really good scripture that never departs from me. :)
What it is actually saying is that if you do good for your own sake you won't be doing it in your heart, with true intent (will is another good word here), and for this reason, God will not dwell in this person and this person won't be recognized by Him. :)

This also means that what is important is not the action but with what intent you do the action. That's why Love is so important. If you do good for someone because you Love this person, you are doing it with good intention. If you do it just because you want others to think you are good, or for God to "accept" you in heaven, then your "love" is selfish, it's not the True Love of God.

Fellow brothers, :)

I will probably be posting my church's Sunday's message in a new thread soon. I'm hoping to get a permission to post it here, in the forums. When I get it, I'll write a note here with the link.

May the Love of God allways be in your hearts. :)

I will probably be posting my church's Sunday's message in a new thread soon.

I'd rather you not.

Why not?

Stop reading the bible. If you must retain religion, maintain the idea that god is love and people should be groovy to each other, and use that as the whole of your religion. It's not a bad belief. Reading bibles and such can only drag you away from those basic good ideas and fill your head with nonsense.

Why are you saying me that? It's even completly out of context of the thread...

A little note to Christians...
Try this site... :);)
http://bible.gospelcom.net/

Porfiry,

If you don't want me to post it here for whatever reason, I won't. I guess it will get too big anyways...

Truthseeker, you must be utterly braindead for you not to see the stupid cycle here in sciforas.

check1: christian posts religious message;
atheists make logical refutation;
antichristians claim to be atheist and make vulgar attacks;
christians get pissed;
antichristians get pissed at christian's counterattacks;

atheist mistaken for antichristian;
atheist tries to engage christians in decent discussion;
atheist gets only religious vulgarities;
atheist gets pissed;
big threadfighting ensues;
much carnage;
quiet after the battle;

goto check1;

You're only going to start a HUGEass fight here. Not sure Porfiry would want that.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

I want to bring that for Christians, not for atheists. Those texts are a very good study of the Bible. In any way I want to create confusion here...

Like the atheists are supposed to sit quietly like nice little atheist kiddies must, eh?

TruthSeeker! Lay! Off! The! Crack!

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

It is YOUR option, not mine. What I want is to offer other Christians the opportunity to read my church's messages, that's all. Wheter you, atheists, attack us or not it is not my business... I hope you don't...

I suppose we have the right to speak...

Indeed you have the right to speak. I'm just mildly annoyed that you are on crack, and that your exercising your right to freedom of speech will make scifora explode in fiery smithroons again.

Again, PLEASE lay off the crack. It would make me ever so happy.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

It should be noted that Nelson is not high on crack, he's high on LOVE.

Which is infinitely more debilitating.

I don't think the codeine and glue helps, either. :)

That definitely scares me.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

It scares me too.

*starts contemplating selling love in the drug trade*

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Hey, I like that. I could stop smuggling illegal Mexican immigrants then.

*starts signing papers to hand over massive brothel chain to next in line candidate*

Hey, why don't we combine forces, Zero?

Yes!!
*sets out recruiting loyal goons and dominating the underworld*

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

*Blackmails politicians*

*dishes out vicious beatings to rival gang leaders*

*pauses to smooch Xev*

*burns and smokes out Detroit's crime leaders*


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

*cough
Can you go back to the subject...?
Actually... there is NO subject anyways...:eek:

Why don't you two start a thread like...
"Xev loves Zero"... or... "Zero loves Xev"... or both... or... "Xev and Zero combining forces"... or whatever...

Nelson, be careful or I'll put you on my enemies list.

And why would you want me as your enemy?

Well, sheesh, every Sublime Imperial Dictator has to have an enemies list.

Are YOU a "Sublime Imperial Dictator"? What the HECK IS that anyways...!? Oh well... nevermind... Just go back to the topic...

Sublime Imperial Dictators do not take orders from peons.

Go back to work in the fields.

I refuse to accept your fantasy land...;):D:bugeye::eek:

Get back to thine fields! Peon! :mad:

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Peons have no choice, Nelson.

*scowls* *takes out bullhide whip*

THWAP!! Get thee moving!!

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

*raise up to the heavens and say...*
Haha... LOSERS! :D:D

truthseeker,

I will probably be posting my church's Sunday's message in a new thread soon. I'm hoping to get a permission to post it here, in the forums. When I get it, I'll write a note here with the link.Please don’t.

Why not?Because this is a site for debate not for preaching.

ISDAMan did this for a long time with his Friday Night Sermons. They attracted near zero views and posts.

In any way I want to create confusion here...Your regular posts are sufficiently confusing.

Your regular posts are sufficiently confusing.

In an atheist's point of view, yes, probably.

truthseeker,

In an atheist's point of view, yes, probably.But your planned target audience was other Christians. So your plan was to regurgitate your Sunday sermons to your fellow Christians, and these sermons will confuse your fellow Christians.

If Christians are confused by Christian sermons then I’m sure atheists stand no chance.

I meant that atheists may get confused with the teachings (actually, not my pastor's teachings... he is really good on that). My brothers will only gain with the teachings. I believe they will actually win A LOT with it... :)

Ok, Looks like you just need to take more care of what you write.

i actually weant to see this.It would be funny.

But I think the purpose of a debate forum is to, ah, you know, debate stuff. if you want to preach, buy a saopox and stand on it,

Truthseeker

After many misunderstandings between me and a friend there is a threatening that my mission might not be fulfilled by reasons above me.

Your "mission" in this case is not relevant, however the threats to your mission are relevant. Therefore, take the time to clearly define those threats and then prioritize them as most to least threatening. This may help you to clarify the misunderstandings and will allow you to deal with that which is a "must do" priority.

I never talked about my mission before, and I believe it's time to ask for your help.

That's fine, but it is ultimately you who will end up helping yourself.

Please hold me kindly in your prayers, always asking God to give me wisdom and to speak through me

This will most certainly not help you in the least. You need to qualify the problem first and then find alternative solutions. Use your head and not your heart.

If the matters I'm in now become worse I will never be able to preach the Gospel to other people in other countries.

Then you must take the time to think the problem through. If you do, those matters may not seem as bad as you think. Remember, most every problem has a solution.

Please, ask God for the Truth.

NO! Leave your God out of this. Use your mind instead. Think for yourself.

If there are intercessors here, please ask Him soon about what's going on and tell me as soon as possible.

This will not work. You simply cannot shut off your brain, sit back and hope someone else will solve your problems for you. You need to dissect the problem into clearly defined actions which you can then tackle one at a time.

For some reason, the quote, "God helps those who help themselves" comes to mind. :)

(Q),

Doesn't make sense to have a mission from God and at the same time not asking His help... He did give me wisdom to solve the problems and, through Him, I already understood what had happened. :)

Truthseeker

Doesn't make sense to have a mission from God and at the same time not asking His help...

Yes it does make sense. At some point in your life, you'll have to start thinking for yourself, especially if you wish to continue into higher education as you indicated in another thread.

He did give me wisdom to solve the problems

Gods do not dole out wisdom. That is gained through experience and understanding using common sense.

btw - God does not speak through you or anyone else. To believe that, imo, is the ultimate act of selfishness.

(Q),

Yes it does make sense. At some point in your life, you'll have to start thinking for yourself, especially if you wish to continue into higher education as you indicated in another thread.

I think for myself. And God also helps me. And I'm already almost sure about what I will do...

Gods do not dole out wisdom. That is gained through experience and understanding using common sense.

Yes He does. Experience and "common sense" as you say are human wisdom, and human wisdom is foolishness in God's sight...

1 Corinthians 3:18-20
"18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."

btw - God does not speak through you or anyone else. To believe that, imo, is the ultimate act of selfishness.

James 3:14-16
"14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.
15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.
16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. "

1 Corinthians 14:4
"4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. "

proph¡¤et
n.
1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.

.....

prophet

\Proph"et\, n. [F. proph[`e]te, L. propheta, fr. Gr. ?, literally, one who speaks for another, especially, one who speaks for a god an interprets his will to man, fr. ? to say beforehand; ? for, before + ? to say or speak. See Fame. ] 1. One who prophesies, or foretells events; a predicter; a foreteller.

2. One inspired or instructed by God to speak in his name, or announce future events, as, Moses, Elijah, etc.

Prothets glorify God by edifying the church. Prophecy is not an act of selfishness, is an act of Love...

So you claim to be instructed by god to preach here? Makes me wonder if your god is not on crack.

Preaching is only for you stuffing info into our brains. That is the opposite of debate. This forum is for debate, not preaching. Fair enough? I hope so.

And do lay off the crack. Please? Pretty please? With cream and sugar? Cherry on top? ;)

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

I made no claim whatsoever. If I want to post those messages here is because of my own free will.

And I'm not on crack... (you KNOW that...):bugeye:

Fine go ahead, at least try to convince Oxygen to let you do it. It's up to her or Porfiry.

You not on crack!? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...:p

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

If Nelson wants to preach, he should get a soapbox or start a website.

Generally, debate forums are used for debating, not preaching.

I need not mention that there are already problems with the intellectual level of the religion sub-forum.

But there is another issue here. What makes these forums fun is that we are talking with each other using our own ideas. While many of us do quote experts occasionally it is usually in support of our own essays.

What truthseeker wants to do is quote sermons from his pastor in order to spread religious teaching. We won’t be debating with truthseeker, but indirectly with his pastor instead. And that is not acceptable.

But you forget that my opinion is not much different then my pastor's. Another thing is that he knows how to explain biblical things... that's his job, isn't it?

Many things written there would give a good insight (even for atheists) of how to read the Bible, and how to interpret many things...

Truthseeker

Prothets glorify God by edifying the church. Prophecy is not an act of selfishness, is an act of Love...

Are you claiming to be a prophet ?!? :eek:

But you forget that my opinion is not much different then my pastor's. Another thing is that he knows how to explain biblical things... that's his job, isn't it?

You should not speak for your pastor. If you think he can explain "biblical things" so well, ask him to become a member here that we might interrogate him as well. I would rather hear his opinion from the horses mouth, as it were.

Many things written there would give a good insight (even for atheists) of how to read the Bible, and how to interpret many things...

The Bible is wide open for interpretation. Who is to say your pastors interpretation is the right one for anybody else other than him or you ?

(Q),

Are you claiming to be a prophet ?!?

HAHAHAHA!!!:D:D:D
NOT REALLY!!! I still have long ways to go!!

You should not speak for your pastor. If you think he can explain "biblical things" so well, ask him to become a member here that we might interrogate him as well. I would rather hear his opinion from the horses mouth, as it were.

:bugeye:

The Bible is wide open for interpretation. Who is to say your pastors interpretation is the right one for anybody else other than him or you ?

He researches the words in Hebrew and Greek and apply them to the scripture being studied. He also anylizes who is adressing and who is being adressed. He analyzes the historical implications. He put the books in a timeline. He uses cross-references, etc...

truthseeker,

He researches the words in Hebrew and Greek and apply them to the scripture being studied. He also anylizes who is adressing and who is being adressed. He analyzes the historical implications. He put the books in a timeline. He uses cross-references, etc...Why does he need to do any of that?

He sounds like a significant intellectual.

Surely one must only have faith and then God will reveal the meaning to those who simply read his word. I seem to recall some scripture that says that God would not expect anything more from someone beyond their ability. This implies that you should be able to read the bible and with your significant faith, God will reveal everything you need. Why would you need a great intellectual like your pastor for further help?

Why also are there many hundreds of Christian sects and cults who all interpret the bible differently? All profess to have faith in God. What guarantee do you have that the interpretations by your Pastor are any more precise than say the Mormon views, or any other biblical ‘expert’?

Let your pastor register at scifora and we'll take him on.
*takes out and polishes his 4barrel, semiauto grenade launcher*

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Cris,

Why does he need to do any of that?

Because he goes deep in the scripture, he studies them.

Surely one must only have faith and then God will reveal the meaning to those who simply read his word.

He does that. But unfortunatly, there are many people that try to tell us the wrong meaning and twist His Word. He only have to analyse It because some people try to trick us. For example, when an atheist bring a scripture for us to prove us wrong we instantly start to analyse it and find out what is wrong in the atheist's analysis. Most of atheists bring pieces of scriptures out of context to try to prove us wrong.

There are also people that seek that on gain by using the Bible. That's one of the reasons why we have so many different sects and doctrines. The Catholics, for example, spent a long time tricking people into believing that they had to pay for their sins. So they would charge them money to pay for them. To do that, they had to keep the people uneducated, because in the Bible is written:

1 Peter 3:18
"18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; "

This proves that our sins have been paid for. So the Catholics kept the believers uneducated so that they couldn't read it. They also used to quote the Bible in Latin, so that people wouldn't understand it.

This answers your question...

Why also are there many hundreds of Christian sects and cults who all interpret the bible differently?

Some of them have some different doctrines and traditions which are not very good but at least don't completly twist the Bible.

There are many other examples of people who make this kind of thing...

I seem to recall some scripture that says that God would not expect anything more from someone beyond their ability. This implies that you should be able to read the bible and with your significant faith, God will reveal everything you need.Why would you need a great intellectual like your pastor for further help?

Daniel 2:20
"20 Daniel said, "Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever, For wisdom and power belong to Him."

Which means that wisdom comes from God, we are wise through Him, and to have this wisdom you must have faith that He will give it to you.

1 Corinthians 2:6-8
"6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; "

Again, it is God's wisdom that you hear, not ours. He give it to us through our faith.

Proverbs 2:6
"6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding. "

Wise people read the Bible in the way I described.

What guarantee do you have that the interpretations by your Pastor are any more precise than say the Mormon views, or any other biblical ?xpert?

He does his job not for his own gain but by the gain of everyone. Besides that, it's not hard to know what is from God and what is not...

Assuming we believe in your god, which some of us don't...there are wise people among those who read the bible but you don't have to read the bible to be wise...or believe in yrou god...agreed?

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

1 Corinthians 3:18-20
"18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."

...

Why're you quoting the bible? It's almost as if you think it's a big authority on the subject here...or have you started your catechism class already!?

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

I answered your question. I clearly said that true wisdom comes only from God. So I quoted it. What is the problem? I'm certainly not a big authority on it. I still have a lot to learn. However, the things that I know I teach you. That's all that I did. And btw, I'm not catholic and I will never cathetisize (or whatever) anyone...

truthseeker,

Why does he need to do any of that?

Because he goes deep in the scripture, he studies them. That only says what he does, it doesn’t answer why.

My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn’t clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.

.. there are many people that try to tell us the wrong meaning and twist His Word. He only have to analyse It because some people try to trick us. For example, when an atheist bring a scripture for us to prove us wrong we instantly start to analyse it and find out what is wrong in the atheist's analysis.There are many books, in science for example that explain very complex topics in very clear detail so that they cannot be misinterpreted. Why is the bible so imprecise that it leaves itself open to misinterpretation?

But my point was not about atheists but other Christians who create alternative interpretations.

Some of them have some different doctrines and traditions which are not very good but at least don't completly twist the Bible. I am sure they might well say the same about you. Each Christian sect appears equally convinced it has the true version just like you. Why is your interpretation correct and theirs isn’t?

Which means that wisdom comes from God, we are wise through Him, and to have this wisdom you must have faith that He will give it to you. And if all Christian sects believe this then why are there so many interpretations. Can’t God make up his mind?

Besides that, it's not hard to know what is from God and what is not...Ah ha, and again so why are there so many sects that seemingly can’t tell the difference?

BTW what sect do you belong?

"And if all Christian sects believe this then why are there so many interpretations. Can’t God make up his mind?"
------------------------------------------

Christopher, although I do not consider you worth my time, I will point out the error in your logic here. The Bible, which I have already proven valid through secular evidences on other threads, is true and unchanging. Conversely, it is flawed humans who are corrupted by worldy possessions and inspired by selfish desires, and therefore, seek to manipulate the text of the Bible (and ultimately God) to fulfill their narcissistic demands. This explains the presence of many false religions, including atheism. Christopher, one only needs a basic automobile to get around, right? Yet, there are thousands of different makes, models, styles, colors, etc. of automobiles to choose from to meet the individual demands of society. Once again, it is humans and false religions who change, not the accuracy and validity of biblical text.

><>

The issues where Christian "sects" differ is usually on some doctrine or other, such as adult or infant baptisms, acceptance or rejection of certain practices and application of certain dogma. Some churches are more charismatic, some are more rational and reserved, and yet others are more liturgical or orthodox.

The main problems are problems of personal preference (for which the Roman Catholic church doesn't cater and hence it's success, but also its critics). Protestant churches really attempted to create a more Biblically-based and less traditional ministry. The differences are more differences of focus than of message. The different "sects" don't compete with one another, they are collections of people who hold the same perspective. The only place where those differences will be defended from is the Bible, and any honest and genuine Christian will bear testimony by faith and love, not by force of will.

The message remains the same, and the differences are that of opinion not of authority - which remains God, and of which Jesus remains the perfect example. All Christian churches are subject to God's leadership, and follow Jesus' example. That is the only truth and the one which binds them all together.

You will find that Christian churches are becoming more and more open to dialogue and willing to address common issues. Whether Christians follow Apollos, Paul or Peter - they are all only watering, but there is only one who can let grow.

Jenyar,

Thanks. I understand that position but I was referring to different interpretations of the bible rather than doctrines.

For example some say the 6th commandment says thou shall not kill while others say it means thou shall not murder.

The difference is fundamental because the first variation supports the Jesus idea of love your enemies and turning the other cheek and vengence being the realm of God. But if it only means no murder then that opens up the option to kill for self-defense and would support wars.

Another issue is the alleged virgin birth where some sects insist she was a virgin whereas others interpret the original text to mean young woman. The issue again raises the issue of whether Jesus was of a divine conception or just another man who was just a rebel.

These seem like key issues to me that dramatically affect the Christian message.

I can quote some more if you like but I think you can probably follow my perspective.

Truthseeker, the only true wisdom comes from god? You're basically saying that everyone non-christian is following the wrong path, are deluded, and are hopelessly foolish. You're also saying that your religion is the only one that is valid and all other religions are wrong and useless. And this is not a place for teaching, this is a place for discussion and debate. Clearly understand the purpose for this place before you participate.

Inspector, if Cris is not worthy of your time then no one in this place is. You're claiming the same things as truthseeker. Basically, the gist of your arguments are that your viewpoints are the only valid ones, and everyone else is wrong. The basic starting point is different from mine and cris' and etc. Truthseeker' and you are starting from the "I am superior and I'm only here to enlighten you all" point. I, Cris, and the helpful discussion people here are coming from the "We are equals and so let's debate things. " point of view. Did you read the CallingAllAtheists thread I started a week or two ago? That applies to everyone here, not just atheists. Without considering eveyrone equal to you there can be no further discussion. There will only be trolls and flames.

While we're at it, if god is the only source of true wisdom then why are there so many different interpretations of the bible?Which interpretation is right? Is yours the only right interpretation and everyone else incorrect?

Calling atheism a false religion is as old as christianity itself, and far older. It has not received a single scratch from harder thrusts than yours. Don't ram your head against walls that won't yield. Do you mind providing me with logical arguments on why atheism would be a false religion? While we're at that too, why would be all non-christian religions be false? What makes yours right alone?

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

"Do you mind providing me with logical arguments on why atheism would be a false religion? While we're at that too, why would be all non-christian religions be false? What makes yours right alone?"
---------------------------


The dictionary defines a cult as "a system of religious worship or ritual"; "devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc.", "a group of followers." This is a typical secular definition and by it, any believer in any god is a cultist, even atheists since they have an admiration for a principle and are a group of followers of the philosophy of atheism. The definition I use for "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation. If it doesn't use the Bible, it is a non-Christian religion and does not participate in the benefits of divine revelation.

><>

So basically you mean to say that anyone else who is not of your christian denomination (or the RCC if you're catholic) is wrong? Is that all?

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

"So basically you mean to say that anyone else who is not of your christian denomination............."
-------------------------

When you say 'your christian denomination', you are implying a posessive nature. I do not HAVE a Christian denomination. I submit to Christian doctrine, derived from scripture. Also, the means and methods of soteriology are clearly demonstrated in the Bible. Many religions deviate from the text of the Bible to satisfy selfish desires, including atheism.

><>

Alright, so are you saying that anyone who does not follow christian doctrine is wrong, selfish, and false? All nonchristian religions are false ones?

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

"Alright, so are you saying that anyone who does not follow christian doctrine is wrong, selfish, and false?"
-----------------------------

Not me. Jesus said it, many times throughout the Bible.

><>

Originally posted by inspector
"Alright, so are you saying that anyone who does not follow christian doctrine is wrong, selfish, and false?"
-----------------------------

Not me. Jesus said it, many times throughout the Bible.

><>

Show me some quotes if you will. I, being an ignorant and filthy unbeliever, lack the skill to find the appropriate meaning in the appropriate quote.

And stop avoiding responsibility for your posts.

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos

Cris,

My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn? clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.

Satan confuses people. And he works in your mind, while God works through your heart...

We need people to interpret because we have been tricked by Satan for a long time. When we become Christians, we have so much hurt and confusion and illusion in our lives that we need someone to be an intermidiate between God and us to guide us. Without a guide, Satan comes and try to steal your salvation. The Bible seems confusing to you because Satan confuses everything in your mind. Besides that, God ways is above our ways, God wisdom is above our wisdom. It may appear confusing and foolish for you because His wisdom is above yours.

There are many books, in science for example that explain very complex topics in very clear detail so that they cannot be misinterpreted. Why is the bible so imprecise that it leaves itself open to misinterpretation?

It's not imprecise, It's actually very precise. But you must remember that the Bible is a collection of 81 books written by different people in different times. Even the words that people use are different from times to times. You also have to remember that Satan will try to confuse you and make you not believe in what is written.

But my point was not about atheists but other Christians who create alternative interpretations.

I already talked about that. The Catholics, for example, that tried to earn money using the Bible...

I am sure they might well say the same about you. Each Christian sect appears equally convinced it has the true version just like you. Why is your interpretation correct and theirs isn??
Because in the overall it makes sense. When you put everything together, it makes sense. Besides that, the Bible makes it very clear that there are false teachers nowdays, and each false teacher creates his own "Christianism"...

And if all Christian sects believe this then why are there so many interpretations. Can? God make up his mind?

... read inspector's...

BTW what sect do you belong?

Any... or...
Let's say I follow the Gospel of Love...

Originally posted by Cris

For example some say the 6th commandment says thou shall not kill while others say it means thou shall not murder.

The difference is fundamental because the first variation supports the Jesus idea of love your enemies and turning the other cheek and vengence being the realm of God. But if it only means no murder then that opens up the option to kill for self-defense and would support wars.

Another issue is the alleged virgin birth where some sects insist she was a virgin whereas others interpret the original text to mean young woman. The issue again raises the issue of whether Jesus was of a divine conception or just another man who was just a rebel.

These seem like key issues to me that dramatically affect the Christian message.

I can quote some more if you like but I think you can probably follow my perspective.

Mary was a virgin and a young woman. From the rest of the Bible, and from Joseph's reaction it was clear that she was a virgin and that Jesus was conceived from the Spirit. It takes a lot of selective reading to make the Bible say otherwise. Joseph wondered whether he should leave her, and since the penalty for having extramarital children was death, he would have had to deny that he was the father as well. By staying with Mary he acknowledged legal paternity, but must have known the real Father.

All new translations use the word 'murder' - as far as I can see only the King James (which was translated from an already Latin translation) use 'kill', but that is not the point. Whether we have the authority to take a life which God has given, is the question. The commandment against murder comes a long way in the Bible. The ten commandments were a culmination and explicit statement of God's will before and since. Consider the following (from the NASV):
Genesis 9:6___
______ _"Whoever sheds man's blood,
__________By man his blood shall be shed,
__________For in the image of God
__________He made man.

James 2:11___For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12_So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13___For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

So in essence - it does not matter which law you break in the end. If you call someone an idiot, you are not showing any quality of love, and in that sense are no better than a murderer. The Bible doesn't split hairs. But it teaches a freedom which we cannot understand without laws.

Can you give me some more examples that bother you or anyone else?

'Truthseeker' and you are starting from the "I am superior and I'm only here to enlighten you all" point.'
--------------------------

You must realize that Christianity, by definition, says that all other systems are false. It is not that it is "superior" the way you apparently try and connect it with arrogance. It is simply that it is true and saying so doesn't mean we are superior or arrogant in attitude. It is superior because it is true. Jesus, who claimed to be God in flesh (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33; Exod. 3:14, cf, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:6,8), said that He was the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matt. 11:27). We Christians believe Him.

Pride in a person is something God does not want. The attitude of arrogant superiority in a person is not what God wants, either. But, that does not change the fact that Christianity is, by nature, superior to all other systems -- since it alone represents the true God as manifested in Christ. Being true, it is therefore superior by nature, but that does not mean that it is inconsistent with itself since being true does not mean that those who believe it is superior are being prideful. Pride is something in people. Christianity is the historical revelation and manifestation of Jesus who claimed to be God, walked on water, healed people, rose from the dead, etc. This occurred in history. For me to say it is true and to believe it is true over all other systems does not make me arrogant anymore than you, an atheist, believe that your atheism is true, and therefore superior, over all religious systems.

Furthermore, Christianity teaches a Trinitarian God which all other religious systems do not (contra modalism, tritheism, etc). Christianity teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, which all other religious systems do not. Though there are similarities in other systems, Christianity is unique in its scope, evidence, soteriology, and theology. This is one of the problems I have with your argumentation: you say things that are not logically necessary and then proceed to build your case on these alleged points. This is why you are not convincing in your defense of atheism.

><>

Cris,

My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn? clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.

Remember that all the books of the Bible were written thousands of years ago. If you get the original Old Testament written mostly in Hebrew, will you understand it? I don't think so. Even people that study Hebrew nowdays have difficulty in reading the manuscripts as they didn't used to put vowels in the words. Although a system of vowels was later made, in the time when the Bible was written they never wrote any vowels. The vowels would appear in the spoken word. That may seems hard for us, but they were so used with it that it was easy for them.

Greek is another. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek. Almost all words in greek have accents (with the exception of one letter words...). There are many forms of accent. Not very easy to know which one to use... (mainly if you are not used with it...). Besides that, the end of a word changes as the syntax in the sentence changes. In this sense, each word has about 15 forms. You have to know them to read properly in greek.

History is important to create background. If you lived in Jesus's time you would understand things much more easily. You should know the traditions and the culture to understand thing properly. It was pretty easy for them to speak those anciant languages. They even used all of them at the same time! In the houses they used the Aramaic, in the synagogues the Hebrew and in the market the Greek; they knew them all! For example...

Mark 5:25-29

"25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years,
26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse--
27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak.
28 For she thought, "If I just touch His garments, I will get well."
29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. "

You would probably say that it is not big deal to touch someone's "garment". However, if it was a high priest's cloak, it was forbidden to be touched, because of a Jewish law. In this sense, she would be going against the laws of those times, what is not a small thing...

Another thing is the sentence:
"Have faith in God." (as in Mark 6:22)
This means to have faith in what God will do, to trust Him, etc...
However, if you get from the manuscript or an Interlinear Bible, you will read:
"Have faith of God."
Which means to have God's kind of faith!

So, if you really want to read the Bible and get the most of It, my suggestion is to buy:

An Interlenear Bible that has the Greek and Hebrew original text in it plus the numbers of the Strong's Concordance.
The Strong's Concordance - that matches all the words of the Bible, so you can look them up (even though you can look it up in the computer in sites like http://bible.gospelcom.net/)
A Bible Encicolpedia - which has the history
A Bible Dictionary - which has the meaning and history of the words

Because of the internet, you may not need to buy all this stuff. You probably can seacrh for words in the internet instead of searching in the Strong's Concordance. Also, a Bible Dictionary may not add as much as an Enciclopedia. Probably, if you have one, you won't need the other. But the Interlinear Bible is still essential.

You must realize that Christianity, by definition, says that all other systems are false. It is not that it is "superior" the way you apparently try and connect it with arrogance. It is simply that it is true and saying so doesn't mean we are superior or arrogant in attitude. It is superior because it is true. Jesus, who claimed to be God in flesh (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33; Exod. 3:14, cf, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:6,8), said that He was the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matt. 11:27). We Christians believe Him.

Institutionalized arrogance, then? That's messed up. And I recalled jesus as someone who taught humility...or was it the opposite?

Pride in a person is something God does not want. The attitude of arrogant superiority in a person is not what God wants, either. But, that does not change the fact that Christianity is, by nature, superior to all other systems -- since it alone represents the true God as manifested in Christ. Being true, it is therefore superior by nature, but that does not mean that it is inconsistent with itself since being true does not mean that those who believe it is superior are being prideful. Pride is something in people. Christianity is the historical revelation and manifestation of Jesus who claimed to be God, walked on water, healed people, rose from the dead, etc. This occurred in history. For me to say it is true and to believe it is true over all other systems does not make me arrogant anymore than you, an atheist, believe that your atheism is true, and therefore superior, over all religious systems.

Attempting to "prove" a religious point of view superior to another is a messed up act. The fact that you do claim christianity to be superior to *all others* detracts a lot from your persuasiveness.

Furthermore, Christianity teaches a Trinitarian God which all other religious systems do not (contra modalism, tritheism, etc). Christianity teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, which all other religious systems do not. Though there are similarities in other systems, Christianity is unique in its scope, evidence, soteriology, and theology.

Theology is easy to make up. Christian theology is overly simplistic in its blatant generalization of the world as being divided into good and evil. What's so uniqe about that? A cheap fantasy writer can do that.

Salvation by grace through faith? A smooth way of saying that the only quality your god values is blind obedience and nothing else. He obviously doesn't care for anything else. That's very twisted. Sounds very similar to satanism to me. Now don't get started again about that remark!

truthseeker,

I think you are emphasizing my point for me very well. To properly understand the bible stories it is necessary to understand the cultures and traditions of the time of writing, since much of the wording makes assumptions about lifestyles that no longer exist in our modern time. This necessarily entails the need for experts who try to place themselves back in history and create biblical interpretations that they hope represent the intent of the original authors.

That is all quite nice but that really wasn’t my point. If these stories are the word of God written for us so that we may have some understanding of him and guidance of how we should live, then why did he only have texts generated that were appropriate for people thousands of years ago and not produce something that would be effective for people of all times? If he really wants us to understand why does he make it so difficult for us? Why doesn’t he revisit us now and generate a new set of texts appropriate for our languages, customs, and traditions that we can readily understand and follow, instead of relying on often-dubious interpretations generated by specialist intellectuals?

My interpretation of these observations is that the bible stories were written by the people of those ancient times purely for the benefit of the people of those times and based on their perceptions of what a god would be like and what he might need.

Remember that back in those times illiteracy was commonplace, there was no TV or radio, and common entertainment was in the form of storytellers who would add imaginative embellishments to please their audiences. Myth making was the norm and not the exception. And the most successful myths are those that tell of kings, and gods, and knights, and heroes and saviors. This is not too different from the movies we watch that come out of Hollywood. Nothing has really changed for thousands of years. We still enjoy a good story.

The problem comes when the myths are interpreted by many as truths.

So try studying some history of the times and imagine yourself back in those times and you should see how the fictional myths of most of the bible stories and Christianly were created.

You should start with the Lost Gospel, the study of Q. And then progress to some objective works that cover the history of Christianity.

Maia,

Hi welcome to sciforums. Nice posts.

Because I agree with your main point? :p

And thank you for welcoming me. I hope to become one of the "family".

M,

Because I agree with your main point? You did? Ok that's a bonus then.
:)

Yup, welcome Maia.

While we're on the subject of myths and such, I'd like to point out the famous radio broadcast by Orsen Welles back before he directed movies. For those who don't know, he staged a show on the radio about an alien invasion of Earth that played in a single episode. He made it sound real and people actually believed him. There was mass hysteria throughout the United States about an alien invasion, people genuinely believed every word he said. Eventually they found out it was only a radio program. Imagine if no one had told them it was a radio program. Also imagine the aliens were said to have landed in, say, Cuba. Would these people really be able to seperate fact from fiction in this case?

It is entirely plausible that people would have believed such an event actually occurred (keep in mind, this would be in the mid 30's or so) and such an extraordinary event would certainly live on through stories. Isn't it plausible that the Bible was such an event? Fictional but believed not only because of the massive illiteracy and lack of communication in those times, but because it also answered many questions people back then had. There are many such myths, from the Greek gods to the Egyptian gods, all of which have lived on even until today. Isn't it plausible that Christianity may be among these myths? If the Egyptian empire still existed today, would they not believe in their gods even now?

Cris,

If these stories are the word of God written for us so that we may have some understanding of him and guidance of how we should live, then why did he only have texts generated that were appropriate for people thousands of years ago and not produce something that would be effective for people of all times?
Who said that? It is actually pretty clear statements such as "Love one another", "Don't kill", and "Don't commit adultery", aren't they? Those things are forever effective. The only problem here is that an omniscient being is trying to say something for little kids that usually don't understand anything. God will allways be the same. He allways has been. His message never changed and will never change. It is just the way we tell them that will change. In the same way I can say "Good Morning" or "Bom Dia" or "Buon Giorno" or "Buenos Dias" or whatever language, I can say it in many ways. The message doesn't change, it is just the way that I say it that change. In the same way God say things very simply, but people have to put in context their history, their culture and their language to communicate it.

If he really wants us to understand why does he make it so difficult for us?

He doesn't make it difficult, we do. God has only one nature, that is good. That's why He doesn't need to judge. Since He has only one nature He is very clear. We, in the other hand, have a sinful-godly nature. Sometimes we are sin, sometimes we are righteousness. That's why judgment is important and necessary for us. It's like comparing a full glass with an empty glass. God only "knows" the full glass, so He doesn't judge it, it simply is. We have to judge it because we "know" both of them. It's a matter of concentration and awareness.

Why doesn? he revisit us now and generate a new set of texts appropriate for our languages, customs, and traditions that we can readily understand and follow, instead of relying on often-dubious interpretations generated by specialist intellectuals?

There are no "intelectuals". The Bible says that a pastor specialized in teaching and counscelling is important for the church. However, that doesn't mean that what he does we can't do, he just has a more intimate relationship with God and is more conscient about what is written. He revisited us many times and we really screwed up... why do you think that are so many religions...?

My interpretation of these observations is that the bible stories were written by the people of those ancient times purely for the benefit of the people of those times and based on their perceptions of what a god would be like and what he might need.

Did you really read Exodus...?

Remember that back in those times illiteracy was commonplace, there was no TV or radio, and common entertainment was in the form of storytellers who would add imaginative embellishments to please their audiences. Myth making was the norm and not the exception. And the most successful myths are those that tell of kings, and gods, and knights, and heroes and saviors. This is not too different from the movies we watch that come out of Hollywood. Nothing has really changed for thousands of years. We still enjoy a good story.
In the beginning, people would certainly tell it from one person to another... However, we didn't get those books from nowhere. They were written by people, instructed by God. They are not just stories... many of them have some historical relevance. For example, one of those days they found the tomb of Jesus's brother. Besides that, since Jesus came the number of Christians has just increased. It's not just a story that we got from nowhere. Many people also experienced miracles even greater then those that are written in the Bible, and soon even you will start experiencing and seen things that can only be from God. Just wait. The probability of His plans for us being fulfilled in this generation is really big. It is just not certain that it will happen now because only God knows when it will happen, but the signs written in the Bible are already popping up from many places around the planet.

The problem comes when the myths are interpreted by many as truths.

You will see what is a "myth"...:D:D

truthseeker,

It is actually pretty clear statements such as "Love one another", "Don't kill", and "Don't commit adultery", aren't they? Those things are forever effective. Yes and they have been around a lot longer than Christianity. We don’t need a God to tell us these things.

He doesn't make it difficult, we do. How is having to understand the perspective of the bible simple if we have to understand the significantly different lifestyles and cultures of people who lived 2000 years ago? This was your earlier argument explaining the need for experts. If you need experts then that indicates the message isn’t simple.

The Bible says that a pastor specialized in teaching and counscelling is important for the church. However, that doesn't mean that what he does we can't do, he just has a more intimate relationship with God and is more conscient about what is written. So the message isn’t simple and it does need experts to get it right.

He revisited us many times and we really screwed up... why do you think that are so many religions...?Because he is an incompetent teacher perhaps. He is omnipotent why can’t he get it right the first time?

Did you really read Exodus...? What was the point of this question?

They were written by people, instructed by God. Then he could have instructed them to write the stories such that we wouldn’t need experts to interpret what he wanted to say.

They are not just stories... many of them have some historical relevance. Most myths tend to have some factual basis even if no more than actual locations. Myths are more enjoyable if woven around real places, like many good fiction novels.

Besides that, since Jesus came the number of Christians has just increased. So has the total world population. But two thirds of the world population are not Christian, and of those that are Christian only a few like you are fundamentalist.

It's not just a story that we got from nowhere. That is true. Many parts of the bible were plagiarized from earlier writings.

Many people also experienced miracles even greater then those that are written in the Bible.The parting of the red sea seemed pretty big. Who are these many people who have experienced events that are bigger? Any examples?

The probability of His plans for us being fulfilled in this generation is really big. This is a claim that has been made by every generation for the past 2000 years. Your wish coming true seems as unlikely as all your predecessors.

You will see what is a "myth"..I’ve seen it. It is called Christianity.

Cris,

Yes and they have been around a lot longer than Christianity. We don? need a God to tell us these things.
Really? Then why don't you follow them? And from whom do you think those things came from?:bugeye:

How is having to understand the perspective of the bible simple if we have to understand the significantly different lifestyles and cultures of people who lived 2000 years ago? This was your earlier argument explaining the need for experts. If you need experts then that indicates the message isn? simple
Have you read my post at all? All that He said was very simple, it was the people that had made it complex and people still make it complex. The message is simple... it is just us that are not...

So the message isn? simple and it does need experts to get it right.
The message IS simple and we still need a Christian with more intimacy with God to guide us...:bugeye:

Because he is an incompetent teacher perhaps. He is omnipotent why can? he get it right the first time?

He got it right! It was US that made it so complex!! That's my whole point here!

What was the point of this question?

To clarify wheter you know or not about what you are talking about...

Then he could have instructed them to write the stories such that we wouldn? need experts to interpret what he wanted to say.

Again, WE make it complex, not God...

So has the total world population. But two thirds of the world population are not Christian, and of those that are Christian only a few like you are fundamentalist.

I'm not fundamentalist...

The parting of the red sea seemed pretty big. Who are these many people who have experienced events that are bigger? Any examples?

Well... I met a guy that had a lot of quite exciting experiences... but the really big miracles are yet to come...

This is a claim that has been made by every generation for the past 2000 years. Your wish coming true seems as unlikely as all your predecessors.

There are people now that are able to film and record things that God is doing. For example, I have a friend that has a video of a man that died and 3 days after was reaised from the dead. He was pretty white just before he woke up. His blood was even completly drowned. God is allowing us to record those kind of things now, cause the time is nearand He wants to save as many people as possible...

Truthseeker,

Really? Then why don't you follow them? Why do you think I don’t?

And from whom do you think those things came from? From people of course, there is no one else. This is a matter of rational morality. People are perfectly capable of devising conduct for themselves that enhances their happiness and survival. Such things as love, compassion, mutual support, etc, all contribute to increased survivability. A perfect example of how evolution works so well.

He got it right! It was US that made it so complex!! That's my whole point here!Any competent teacher can reduce a complex or perceived complex issue to something that can be easily understood. Had he wanted to us to learn he could have made it such that we would not have perceived his word as complex. The implication is that he wanted us to be confused and that makes no sense.

I'm not fundamentalist... You believe that what the bible says is true and you use that as the basis for your beliefs. That is Christian fundamentalism.

Well... I met a guy that had a lot of quite exciting experiences... but the really big miracles are yet to come... So are you now saying that there aren’t any miracles that are greater than those in the bible?

There are people now that are able to film and record things that God is doing.
For example, I have a friend that has a video of a man that died and 3 days after was reaised from the dead. He was pretty white just before he woke up. His blood was even completly drowned. God is allowing us to record those kind of things now, cause the time is nearand He wants to save as many people as possible...Hollywood creates these fantasies all the time. Was this conducted under scientific conditions? How does one obtain a copy of this video? How does the video record the elapsed duration of three days? How does the video verify that the man was actually dead?

Cris,

Why do you think I don??
I was talking about the world... eventhough you certainly have sinned...

From people of course, there is no one else. This is a matter of rational morality. People are perfectly capable of devising conduct for themselves that enhances their happiness and survival. Such things as love, compassion, mutual support, etc, all contribute to increased survivability. A perfect example of how evolution works so well.

No, they came from God.

Any competent teacher can reduce a complex or perceived complex issue to something that can be easily understood. Had he wanted to us to learn he could have made it such that we would not have perceived his word as complex. The implication is that he wanted us to be confused and that makes no sense.

Ai ai ai...
Have you read what I wrote? I made it clear that He made things really easy for us. WEmade it complex, not Him. In the beginning He gave us 10 laws. By the time Jesus came there were more than 1000! Then Jesus came and made things REALLY simple. He reduced 10 laws into one: "Love one another". After he went to Heaven here we are again with more then 10000 laws... depending on the country, of course...
Why do you think there are lawyers? The whole law can be reduced in one single sentence: "Love one another"... and we still keep making laws... It wasn't God that made things complex, WE made things complex.

You believe that what the bible says is true and you use that as the basis for your beliefs. That is Christian fundamentalism.

I have no religion...

So are you now saying that there aren? any miracles that are greater than those in the bible?

No. There certainly were, but I never heard a description about one... (or I don't remember have heard...)

Hollywood creates these fantasies all the time. Was this conducted under scientific conditions? How does one obtain a copy of this video? How does the video record the elapsed duration of three days? How does the video verify that the man was actually dead?
Yes. I'll find that out. I don't think it does, but who knows...? There are documents, there are doctors talking and making very clear that he was dead, etc...

Maia,

What an interesting name... isn't that the name for "ilusion" in Hinduism...? ;)

Salvation by grace through faith? A smooth way of saying that the only quality your god values is blind obedience and nothing else. He obviously doesn't care for anything else. That's very twisted. Sounds very similar to satanism to me. Now don't get started again about that remark!

Jesus died on the cross for us. He died for us to show us how Love is so important. He died for his cause and for the world. He want us to do the same thing, to Love one another so much that we can lay down our lives for our friends. It's a really powerful Love that can do great things. He even told us to get a cross and do what he did. Not in the literal sense, but what he meant is for us to follow Love, allways, no matter what. If following Love means to be killed, then still follow Love. That's what He is asking us to do, to Love one another. It's not a matter of obedience, it is a matter of Love, courage and perseverance.

Truthseeker

I have no religion...

In other words, there is no one particular religion which conforms to the exacting standards of your belief system. But that doesn't mean you have no religion.

If you can respond in the affirmative to the following list of measures required to, "have religion," so to speak - then a religion, you have.

- A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

- Institution to express belief in a divine power.

Carry on...

"Barbarism has no ethnicity and evil has no religion."
--Prime Minister John Howard - September 12, 2002

truthseeker,

you certainly have sinned... To sin means to disobey the laws of a god. Since no one can show that any gods exist or have ever existed, then no one can show any laws created by gods. So, given those conditions, it seems highly unlikely that I can have ever sinned.

No, they came from God. You can’t prove that since you can’t prove a god exists. All we know is that the authoritarian laws of the bible were written by men at a time when authoritarianism was assumed to be the normal form of government.

The intelligence of man is perfectly capable of creating rules for morality that are based on human needs. Gods are not needed for such a function.

Ai ai ai...
Have you read what I wrote? I made it clear that He made things really easy for us. WEmade it complex, not Him. Sorry T but you are confusing yourself.

Either something is complex or it isn’t. If God made something simple then there is no way we can make it complex. What you really mean is that we PERCEIVE the issues as complex. See my text ”a complex or perceived complex issue”.

The primary reason people perceive a simple issue as complex is a lack of understanding. I.e. they need education. If God wanted us to understand then he could have taught us since he is meant to be perfect and can do anything. We are left with the only rational conclusion that we are confused because he wants us to be confused, i.e. he could have helped but chose not to.

The whole law can be reduced in one single sentence: "Love one another"... If true then why, if he exists, does he appear to have been so incompetent that he couldn’t teach everyone this rule?

I have no religion... Sure you do –

From Webster – Religion:- a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

You may not follow one of the institutions but you have definitely created a personal set of beliefs, and apparently based on the bible. Or do you believe that the bible is not true?

No, Truthseeker...Maya is illusion, I believe Maia is the name of one of the Pleiades...

(Q),

- Institution to express belief in a divine power.

No institution... no religion...


Cris,

To sin means to disobey the laws of a god. Since no one can show that any gods exist or have ever existed, then no one can show any laws created by gods. So, given those conditions, it seems highly unlikely that I can have ever sinned.

To sin means to disobey "Love one another". That's sin. And if you don't Love yourself, that also count as a sin... Everyone sins. It's part of human nature since God and man were separed by Satan...

All we know is that the authoritarian laws of the bible were written by men at a time when authoritarianism was assumed to be the normal form of government.

No, they weren't. Those people weren't authoritarian in the first place. Besides that, the law "Love one another" is certainly not made by any authoritarian figure.

Either something is complex or it isn?. If God made something simple then there is no way we can make it complex. What you really mean is that we PERCEIVE the issues as complex.

Of course we perceive them as complex, because we judge them...! That's what I said in the beginning of this conversation... :o

The primary reason people perceive a simple issue as complex is a lack of understanding. I.e. they need education. If God wanted us to understand then he could have taught us since he is meant to be perfect and can do anything. We are left with the only rational conclusion that we are confused because he wants us to be confused, i.e. he could have helped but chose not to.

Whenever He tries to help us, we screw things up. We are not different then babies that burn their hands because they don't listen to their parents saying "Don't do that."... Again, what can a baby understand? You need to grow up before you fully understand something, even if it is simple. He taught us, but "we" prefer to play then to go to school. "We" are too rebelled to listen to our Father...

If true then why, if he exists, does he appear to have been so incompetent that he couldn? teach everyone this rule?
He tried to... "We" are rebellious. You, for example, don't even believe He exists. How can He teach you something if you prefer to completly ignore His existance?

You may not follow one of the institutions but you have definitely created a personal set of beliefs, and apparently based on the bible. Or do you believe that the bible is not true?
My beliefs are the reality I perceive. Even more then that, it's what I already learnt and experienced in life...
Yes, I "believe" that the Bible is true...


Maia,

No, Truthseeker...Maya is illusion, I believe Maia is the name of one of the Pleiades...
... almost the same... ;)
I don't remember any star in the Pleiades named "Maia"... oh well... I'm not that good in memorizing names anyway...

Look at the world around you. Simplicity is an illusion of gestalt. A useful illusion, but an illusion nontheless. We perceive things as a simple whole first, then as we seek to explore and understand it, we uncover its complexities layer by layer until we need to simplify what we know again in a theory or a law. That is why Hawking's 'theory of everything' is so attractive.

People are limited to what we can see, and we cannot comprehend infinitely complex things because we are limited by what we can remember, understand, explain and conceptualise at any given moment. That is why people specialise. That is why we need books and computers - to store and be able to retrieve that information at will.

The Bible is no different. It is a collection of manuscripts, letters, poems, history - a history of human experience with God. I don't think you can get a more complex topic presented any more simply. There are layers and layers of information. But even with all this diverse information, the Bible is a self-contained message: that Jesus had come to fill the rift between man and God.

First of all, the Bible is written with the premise that God exists and created mankind. That is the simple complex truth of life. From there on you grow deeper and deeper into knowledge of Man's will and God's Will (what the Bible calls true wisdom) and he contrast between the two. Once again, because of Jesus we don't need to get closer to God, and we don't need to "bring God down to earth" with our own insights. The next layer is "Love God with all your heart and soul" (which the Bible describes at great length how to do), including "love your next as yourself" (which leaves little room for interpretation). From there on we get questions like: "Who is my neighbor?", and Jesus demonstrates with the parable of the Good Samaritan. He doesn't give a "complex" description, but uses a "simple" story and let's us decide for ourselves what is to be learned. But the message is consistent.

As an example:
Leviticus 19
17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD .
19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

You can see that these commandments are again a simple practical exercise/example, teaching concepts that God wants to make sure the people learn: that of holiness and separation. By the laws we know what the transgression would look like, and as you look for the reasons why God made those laws you learn more about what God's will is. Layer by layer.