I came across this info. while making a presentation for a class. Unbelievable:
There are 111 million men in China (roughly 3x the population of Canada) who will never marry. Why? Because there aren't enough Chinese women!!! Why? Because they kill female infants like they're mosquitos!! I'm sorry I said that so lightly but its true. Female infanticide is RAMPANT in China (and India, Pakistan, some African countries..if you think about it) & even though their sons will never marry, they still don't end it!! I thought the whole concept of having sons vs. daughters was so they could carry on the family name.. but if the guy has no woman to marry.. ummm
As a consequence, of this deficit of women, a huge slave trade has emerged where Vietnamese women are kidnapped & transported to China to serve as wives. Or, incestuous villages have emerged where almost every wedding is between a brother & sister or cousin & 1st cousin. :eek: :eek:

I've heard about the female shortage in China and it's apparently such a problem that the Government is encouraging people to have daughters (or not to kill their daughters). They prefer male babies because they consider that their son will look after them in their old age, while the daughter would get married and not be able to care for them. Plus they think that the son would be paid more (again with the thought that he'd care for the parents), plus the family name notion which you mentioned, and also the fact that they consider son's more honourable and preferable to daughters... kind of like a prestige thing (again for selfish reasons of the parents).

It's tragic that girls are either abandoned or dumped and worse still, killed at birth before the birth can be registered:(. However now the Chinese Government is seeing a scary future where men outnumber women by such a majority that as you say, many wont marry and have children. I watched this documentary a few years ago where they were encouraging couples to not abort if it is a girl because of the population ratio. But it is the culture that a male baby is preferred. I watched that documentary with my dad and he was so horrified that it was one of the few times I ever saw him cry, especially when they showed the abandoned baby girls in the way they were treated, and also the fact that no one would adopt them because they were girls. It was heartbreaking. The producers of this documentary had snuck cameras into the orphanages and filmed how these little girls (mostly toddlers) were tied up all day on these benches with holes underneath them for when they went to the toilet, and they were fed on these benches and they even napped on them. They were never held or cuddled and no one ever played with them. My father still talks about that doco sometimes even now and the question he keeps asking is how and why. I guess for him he can't even consider how someone could do that to their own child.

My mother used to be a school teacher in the country of my birth and she always told me this story of this little chinese boy in her class, she taught 7 year olds at the time. She told me how this little boy was really shy and rarely ever spoke. Then one day she during recess, she was outside on yard patrol and another little boy came screaming out of the toilet calling my mum over. Mum rushed over thinking someone was hurt and apparently this little boy had seen the chinese boy in the toilet (apparently the stall door had not closed properly) and he was sitting down on the seat to pee. My mum explained maybe he was doing number two's and the little boy said no, that the chinese boy was not a boy but a girl, and then he told my mum that he didn't have a peepee. My mum couldn't understand what was going on and another teacher came up and asked what was going on and when he heard he went into the bathroom. He came back out and told my mum to get the principal. Mum ran off and came back with the principal and the school nurse. They took the boy into the sick bay and after the school nurse spoke to him and asked him some questions, she came out and told the principal to call the boys parents and the police. The little boy was a little girl and she told the school nurse that she was a boy because her mummy had told her so, but she knew she was a girl because she saw she looked the same as her sisters. The father came in and when questioned by the police, my mum and the principal, he admitted that his wife had kind of lost her mind when after their 4th daughter she fell pregnant and thought this time it was going to be a boy, and it was a girl.. she wanted a boy because of the honour thing and chinese valued boys above girls. So to appease her and so she wouldn't lose her mind further, the father let her call the girl a boys name and let her treat bring up this girl as a boy. The police arrested both of them and apparently the mother was put away into a mental asylum (as they were called back then). The father was released, but lost custody of the kids. The child, along with her sisters were sent away to live with their grandparents, and last my mother heard before we immigrated to Australia, that the child was doing pretty well as a girl. My mother told me that apparently the mother so wanted a boy that she went this far to get one:(, and my mum said to me that she was horrified as to how anyone could do that, but then she was told by many other teachers at the school where she taught that they'd heard of this happening before. She told me that she'd seen cases of child abuse and all of them tragic, but that one was the worst.




:eek:

hi bells!
I wrote a response to you earlier but sciforums deleted it :mad:
WEll, here goes again:
I think I know what documentary you're talking about. It was BBC's Deathroom (or something similar) about the living conditions in Chinese orphanages. It's so sad, that story you narrated. Stories like that are probably what account for some of the huge gap between the number of boys & girls born. A lot of girls are not registered by their parents because they refuse to accept their existence. I think that's a worse punishment than killing them off when they don't understand anything.

I have a friend who was born in China and abandoned as an infant. She ended up in one of those crzy orphanages, but she got really lucky and was adopted by American parents. Her parents tell her that they had to perform the Heimlech (sp?) on her almost everyday the first 2 years they had her, because she ate so fast. The girls at the orphanage were never given enough time to finish eating (sounds like something out of David Copperfield) so they all developed dangerous chowing down speeds. :) its kind of funny

The whole problem with female infanticide stems directly from cultural values, like you said. If somehow by some miracle Chinese peasants were forced to swallow new cultural norms, Chinese society could end its baby-kiling ritual.

But there's other countries too, just as bad. In inda, they had to ban ultrasound from hospitals because of the dramatic increase in female baby killing incidents after the intro of ultrasound into India. But nobody enforces the law :( so female abortions are still the norm there.

( yay! it posted! )

I wound not say it cultural, male babies are preferred virtually universally over females, even here in the states the remnant still remains of wanting to have boys over girls. It goes back to selfish genetics in which a male can conceive many more children then a women can, so it’s evolutionarily advantageous to have more male children.

Last I heard it was like 8 boys to every girl in china :eek: Its hards to believe it that bad.

I can't say anything without being redundant...but hey, that just means I can't say anything without repeating myself, eh?

Yeah, simpler terms: Infant females get killed because there is a limit to how many children a family is allowed to have, and it's valued to have a boy -- they'll take care of you in your old age better, in theory. So, if you have a baby and it's not a boy...well, you want to get a boy, so that other baby goes down the tubes and you and spouse go back to bed.

Infant females get killed because there is a limit to how many children a family is allowed to have, and it's valued to have a boy -- they'll take care of you in your old age better, in theory.
Why are you repeating what's already been said? Do you have anything new to add to the topic?

I wound not say it cultural, male babies are preferred virtually universally over females,
Nope. In the US, more male babies are killed than female babies.

Nope. In the US, more male babies are killed than female babies.

Really can you reference that?

link:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/children.htm
There's a chart at the bottom. It isnt a huge diff, but its still there.

well I'll be a monkeys uncle :D hum would like to know why they keep killing there children seems it has something to do with the fact that man do most of the killing. Even so the vast majority of infanticide in the world and in the animal kingdoms is still on females. There is always exceptions to a rule of biology.

There aren't too few women in china, there are too many men.

And on the subject of baby girls being strapped to benches; fact is, asians are sadistic horrible people.
They go out of their way to cause as much pain and suffering as possible.
Oh yeah, this is racist, well... there you go :shrug:

If you said on average asian culture is sadistic and horrible, that would not be racist, culturist but not racist.

miss khan:
I am living in China now and the problem does exist but it happens mainly in the rural area. I personally know a case of a family having 7 girls and 1 boy, they just wanted to have a boy after having seven girls. It is the rural tradition to have man of labor to serve the family. Or they kill girl babies and now they are equiped with ultrasonic to decide which gender to have without having too many girls before. the rural population accounts for 70% of the whole population. It is out of balance and create all sorts of social disasters. With the present commie government, I can't vision any good way out of this.

Dr Lou Natic:
"asians are sadistic horrible people. "
After experiencing so much abusive life myself, I agree that there are a lot of such bad guys and bad way of behaviors. But not every one of them is the same. The social study on this is done by me but it is in Chinese. I would put it into a major arguement that because of the bad government that encourage such abusive society to keep a few in power, so the only solution to this is a restoration of human values in the government.

I think the world will finally appreciate what the US is doing in the ME despite of the present resistance.

alright, i dunno.. what China's supposed to do to solve its problems

"The female shortage in China is only worsening. In 2000,900,000 fewer female births were recorded than should have been, based on male births. In 1990 the shortfall was 500,000. Some of that owes to parents giving up daughters for adoption without registering their birth. But population experts at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing estimate that up to one-third of the girls are missing because of gender-based abortions. Rural Chinese women also tend to breast-feed girls for shorter periods, providing less hope for survival. Chinese demographers estimate that in some rural areas, 80% of children from ages 5 to 10 are boys.

In Shaanxi's Qiaogou village, children play under a dusty apple tree. The noise is the raucous glee of boys being boys. There is only one girl among them. Asked what he thinks his future will hold, Xiaochun, 7, replies, "I'll get married and be a good farmer, of course." Where will he get a wife? "I think in other villages far away, there are many more girls," Xiaochun says. "I will get my wife from there." Across China, millions of boys are hoping the same thing, but only a few will ever meet the woman of their dreams.

Liu Dehai never imagined he would marry his shy first cousin Hai. Though intramarriage was common in imperial days, it is taboo in modem China. But at age 20, with his friends already paired off, Liu found himself the odd man out. His parents, farmers in the village of Nanliang in Shaanxi province, could not raise the $2,000 required to attract a woman to Nanliang to marry their son. With so many men to choose from, women are loath to settle in hardscrabble villages like Nanliang. Desperate, Liu's mother contacted her sister and requested a favor: Could she ask Hal to be Liu's bride? Young women like Hai are not apt to defy their parents. And so Liu and Hai were wed."

From: "With women so scarce, what can men do?" Its from an old Time magazne.

Nasty situation debveloping. Maybe its the way societies ope with overpopulaiton. Either theyll go and have a great big war in which the boys can get killed, or else homosexuality will beome state sponsored policy.

Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
. It goes back to selfish genetics in which a male can conceive many more children then a women can, so it’s evolutionarily advantageous to have more male children.

It also goes by the name of ignorance

Last I heard it was like 8 boys to every girl in china :eek: Its hards to believe it that bad.

Imagine getting a date, especially as a geek.

Nope. In the US, more male babies are killed than female babies.

This maybe strictly due to natural factors. Not planned murder of the infant....i seriously doubt otherwise. Or for the same reasons they are killed in China.

Only thing you can really do is educate people and "hope" for this to stop....its weaksauce but there isn't any physical measuresagainst this, especially in countries where undeveloped lands stray away from the national law and work on their own code of law (India for example)

SD
/Only thing you can really do is educate people and "hope" for this to stop....its weaksauce but there isn't any physical measuresagainst this, especially in countries where undeveloped lands stray away from the national law and work on their own code of law (India for example)/

Education does take many forms, putting in a prison is also a way of education besides as a punishment.
I wish it was not just sitting and talking and shrugging.

...And still despite infanticide and lack of females, china manages to have the largest population ?????

how can? Does a female have to produce 8 boys before she can retire ?

This in a funny way reminds me of the US trade deficit, if the boys are suposed to take care for their old parents, all these boys need another 8 boys to take care for their pension while the female deficit is getting larger and larger!

This cannot continue forever? Hide your females, the chinese are coming to take our females :D

Originally posted by Vortexx
...And still despite infanticide and lack of females, china manages to have the largest population ?????

how can? Does a female have to produce 8 boys before she can retire ?

This in a funny way reminds me of the US trade deficit, if the boys are suposed to take care for their old parents, all these boys need another 8 boys to take care for their pension while the female deficit is getting larger and larger!

This cannot continue forever? Hide your females, the chinese are coming to take our females :D
The problem happens when the population is getting large enough. Or yes, the chinese girls are in favor of foriegners and that left the deficit even worse.

Originally posted by Vortexx
Hide your females, the chinese are coming to take our females :D
Thankfully no women on earth like asian men. Do you ever hear about a girl who has a "thing" for asian men? Do you ever see a non asian woman with an asian man? the answer to both of those questions is no.
Whats weird is it seems that what few chinese women are left are all coming to live in my city to fornicate with whites and blacks, chinese men are following them here and finding themselves to be single for the rest of their lives.
Probably because, as the old saying goes, "nobody wants to fuck an asian man"
(well thats not entirely true, I had an uncle that liked to fuck young asian men)

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Thankfully no women on earth like asian men. Do you ever hear about a girl who has a "thing" for asian men? Do you ever see a non asian woman with an asian man? the answer to both of those questions is no.
Whats weird is it seems that what few chinese women are left are all coming to live in my city to fornicate with whites and blacks, chinese men are following them here and finding themselves to be single for the rest of their lives.
Probably because, as the old saying goes, "nobody wants to fuck an asian man"
(well thats not entirely true, I had an uncle that liked to fuck young asian men)
That is racial bias. I did see some of, what you said, impossibilities.

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Thankfully no women on earth like asian men. Do you ever hear about a girl who has a "thing" for asian men? Do you ever see a non asian woman with an asian man? the answer to both of those questions is no.

Eh? Where I live there are many white and coloured women married to Asian men. What's supposed to be wrong with Asian men anyway?:confused: Are you going by the silly stereotype that exists amongst small minded people? It's obvious that these women thankfully don't judge the book by its cover and aren't racially biased as some others appear to be.



:eek:

I read once there is a female predisposition for tall man. And as asian man usually are not tall that makes it harder for them.


As to the whole topic... -Oh god I didnt think china is still in middle ages . Sad sad for chinesse ppl . But I realyl don't care much as I hope in 30 yeasr we either all die in massive nuclear/nano war or survive this and become cyborgs ;)

Originally posted by DarkMadMax
I read once there is a female predisposition for tall man. And as asian man usually are not tall that makes it harder for them.


As to the whole topic... -Oh god I didnt think china is still in middle ages . Sad sad for chinesse ppl . But I realyl don't care much as I hope in 30 yeasr we either all die in massive nuclear/nano war or survive this and become cyborgs ;)

That is a hopeless hope that contradicts itself. You need a doctor.

I would say that in Holland, where interracial relationships are very common, you still generally see more white male / asian female relationship than the other way around....

Dr. Lunatic may at sometimes be pretty assholish but from what I observe I don't think he is completely wrong. The few really handsome asian boys around here are mostly gay.

But something far more important than race / look&feel may be appealing to the females mind: MONEY

One of my friends is a wellpaid fundraiser for Greenpeace, he kinda "bought" the cutiest thai bride. It's a matter of supply and demand. Parts of Asia used to be relatively poor in the past while inhabited by the most exotic females.

You also see more bought and paid for Russian brides, have you ever seen the first bought and paid for Groom ?

Does that mean Russian males must be small ugly dudes ? NO WAY! Generally Russian males are as tall and attractive/unattractive as europeans (and maybe not as fat as american whites hehe)

With China going for the economic top, I expect chinese males to buy "dumb-ass" yet goodlooking american white trailer trash hoes in 10 years from now...

I have seen many asian boys with finnish girls in finland, but not the other way around.

Hey, and Finnish chicks are hot blondes all the way! Maybe it's because of the asians having black hair wich is kinda novellty in finland (the italians just think the other way around, they want blondes blondes blondes) of the kinda closed gene pool in Finland to make it exciting "think" outside the box.

Studies show it might be beneficial for species to import fresh genes to prevent monoculture related diseases.

But what kind of Asians are we talking about, we have the hardworking chinese and generally reserved chinese over here and the hardworking, but beerdrinking shouting macho vietnamese ? which are most prevalent in finland?

They are all quite macho and cool in a way.

I wish I was a finnish blonde so I could date them.

I bet they wish you were a Finnish blonde too, monkey.

Wait a second, you're from Finland, aren't you? What colour is your hair anyway? Maybe you could date them after all!

I bet they wish you were a Finnish blonde too, monkey.

Wait a second, you're from Finland, aren't you? What colour is your hair anyway? Maybe you could date them after all!

No I am Dutch. I am doing my PhD in Finland, and am now planning to move to LA for a postdoc.

I wound not say it cultural, male babies are preferred virtually universally over females, even here in the states the remnant still remains of wanting to have boys over girls. It goes back to selfish genetics in which a male can conceive many more children then a women can, so it’s evolutionarily advantageous to have more male children.

It is absolutely cultural. Boys used to be preferred because they can work the fields better and they are not susceptible to rape. Of course such old tradition doesn't have any grounds now since there are we no longer use human physical strength to work fields.

This is the most nonesense I have heard for a while...how can you suggest that nature favor males over females, while It's exactly the opposite, nature favors females over males in all species..Look at lions for instance...One male lion and many females in a pride...the other males must compete for the postion or die...My father in law have a dairy farm, and amazingly enough, one bull is enough to keep a 100 cow farm going...the meet we eat and they call cow is mostly bulls sold for meat because they're good for nothing else. I have even noticed that in humans....no scientific backup...that baby girl have a much better chance in survival as infants than boys. Boy fetus are so weak and volnurable to so many things. A girl fetus is way more resistance to harsh conditions. A child girl is also less likely to get sick than a child boy...this is so true and I bet if we conduct a survey this would turn out to be true..So many girl friends having so many miscarriages have taught me a thing or two about babies.

Last I heard it was like 8 boys to every girl in china :eek: Its hards to believe it that bad.

China's demographics is really getting screwed up and twenty years from now, there will be some major civil wars in that part of the world.

Girls don't get X-linked condition nearly as often as boys, which partly explains the sickly thing...

Thankfully no women on earth like asian men. Do you ever hear about a girl who has a "thing" for asian men? Do you ever see a non asian woman with an asian man? the answer to both of those questions is no.
Whats weird is it seems that what few chinese women are left are all coming to live in my city to fornicate with whites and blacks, chinese men are following them here and finding themselves to be single for the rest of their lives.
Probably because, as the old saying goes, "nobody wants to fuck an asian man"
(well thats not entirely true, I had an uncle that liked to fuck young asian men)

i feel this is deaply racist, it would not be that they hate asian men as "asians" but hate there culture that has had to adapt to the shortage of women.

there is far to much stereo typing in this thread,

to westerners asians may look ugly because they are a different breed still human but very much different, eastern skulls are considered thiner and longer, and because we have specific parts in our brain to deel with facial recodnision, unless we lived in a very mixed area in your mined a person from a distant land would look almost alien, hence "why all chineses look the same" or vice versa,

I loathe those damned, backwards yellow villains and their rampant female slaughter.

Why?

'Cause I like girls quite a bit.


Almost as much as I dislike double-posting twits that can't spell "deeply".

I loathe those damned, backwards yellow villains and their rampant female slaughter.

Why?

'Cause I like girls quite a bit.


Almost as much as I dislike double-posting twits that can't spell "deeply".

with so much hate, you are qualified as Satan too.

I think that the massive male popluation is going ot lead to masive homosexuality or murdder rates will increases ?

dagr8n8, no one can say for sure, maybe they'll adapt to their situation. My Anthropology is a little fuzzy (and I'm drunk) but I think there was (is) a group of people in northern India that practised poligamy with two brothers married to one wife because it took two men doing manual labour to provide enough for a family in the region they lived in. Or maybe they'll adapt in a more modern way with a portion of the unmarried population getting sex changes or something. Would marrying a man that was cosmetically changed to look female be homosexuality ?

If girls are presently aborted because boys are seen as more desireable, wouldn't you think that the resulting lopsided gender disparity would eventually drive parents to prefer girls over boys? I mean, if there are eight men for every woman wouldn't that drive up the value of a girl?

OMG, listen to me saying, "drive up the value," as though I were talking about soybeans instead of human lives. :bugeye:

Hey Dr. Lou,
I used to work in a lab with a number of visiting male Chinese researchers. Everyone of them had a different personality, just like us Americans. I hung out with one of them and continued to correspond with him via snailmail for a couple of years afterwards. Tim, my Chinese buddy, was well-read, funny and wicked intelligent. I would have been honored to have had Tim as my brother-in-law (too bad my sisters weren't interested).

I still correspond with an Indian grad-student that I met at that lab. My friend, Arun, has qualities about him that I could only hope to emulate. He's everything that I wish I could be.

Best wishes,
Michael

If girls are presently aborted because boys are seen as more desireable, wouldn't you think that the resulting lopsided gender disparity would eventually drive parents to prefer girls over boys? I mean, if there are eight men for every woman wouldn't that drive up the value of a girl?

No, it would not. How could it?? The girl's parents still have to worry about back-breaking dowry $$ & no one to care for them in their old age. And if there are now more men to choose from as son-in-laws, the men will compete for the girl because girls have become so rare & the one who "wins" her hand will expect even more dowry jus for winning. sick
Unless of course the girl's fam puposefully chooses the ugly, poverty-stricken guy because he won't be expecting too much cash.

And, umm.. the gender ratio disaster in China really has nothing to do with asian men being ugly. Fine if you think so.. but its not helping the situation. And since Chinese women prob find chinese men attractive, why are you nonChinese worrying about it?

Dr Lou Natic's comment is a non-sequitur that doesn't contribute anything to this discussion. I have seen several university studies on the imbalance between WM-AF vs AM - WF dating. Looks is not one of the factors. It has absolutely nothing to do with China.

The gender ratio disaster is a problem in China, but not as much as old age problem that's going to happen soon. In theory if your retiree is 50% of your population or above, you are going to have a great depression. That is going to happen first in Japan and China very soon after that. Western countries won't have that problem as much because of immigration.

...And still despite infanticide and lack of females, china manages to have the largest population ?????

how can? Does a female have to produce 8 boys before she can retire ?

This in a funny way reminds me of the US trade deficit, if the boys are suposed to take care for their old parents, all these boys need another 8 boys to take care for their pension while the female deficit is getting larger and larger!

This cannot continue forever? Hide your females, the chinese are coming to take our females :DHmmm, they'll have a good reason to start wars in the future, or else pay dowries to wed?

Miss Khan wrote:
No, it would not. How could it?? The girl's parents still have to worry about back-breaking dowry $$ & no one to care for them in their old age.
I don't see it that way, Miss Khan. If there are many men competing for one woman then the woman is in a better position to make demands. She could, for example, announce that her parents are not going to pay a dowry. She could demand that the man's family pay money to her parents instead. She could demand that the groom stand on his head during the wedding. A surplus of desperate men places women "in the driver's seat."

Why can't a women care for her aging parents? That provision could be built into a marriage contract as well. If the women bargins from a position of strength she can simply insist that the man help care for both his and her parents. Wouldn't that, in any case, seem more equitable?

Marriage customs are just that: customs. Customs aren't written in stone. People make them and people can change them. A number of long-standing Chinese traditions are going to change in the coming years. This is a time of dramatic change for the Chinese people.

Best wishes,
Michael

Marriage customs are just that: customs. Customs aren't written in stone. People make them and people can change them. A number of long-standing Chinese traditions are going to change in the coming years. This is a time of dramatic change for the Chinese people.

Best wishes,
Michaelfor some people, customs are set in stone, here is the chance for others to grab the future

Why can't a women care for her aging parents? That provision could be built into a marriage contract as well. If the women bargins from a position of strength she can simply insist that the man help care for both his and her parents. Wouldn't that, in any case, seem more equitable?

That's the thing though, in a society where women have always been seen to come second, she cannot really bargain, no matter how much of a prized commodity she may be herself.

Marriage customs are just that: customs. Customs aren't written in stone. People make them and people can change them. A number of long-standing Chinese traditions are going to change in the coming years. This is a time of dramatic change for the Chinese people.
That's true, customs can be changed. However customs which have been accepted and in existance for such a long time will be hard to change. The Chinese Government last I heard had started a campaign to tell its populace of the dangers that face them because of the diminishing number of women within the population. Girls are being touted by the Government as being essential. However the Government is not offering the populace an incentive to not have a son. In so many cases in countries like China do parents kill or abandon their baby girls all because of her sex. The Government can tell its people all it wants to keep baby girls, but the culture has developed this way for centuries and is ingrained. It will take a long time to change.

for some people, customs are set in stone

ditto..
For example, in CHINA.

Bells wrote:
...in a society where women have always been seen to come second, she cannot really bargain...
If that’s true then how can you explain the radical movement towards equality that Western women have made in the last century? For thousands of years Western women were seen as second-class citizens. How is this different from the situation women now face in China? If Western women could do it then Asian women can do it.

Miss Kahn wrote:
(...for some people, customs are set in stone.) ditto..For example, in CHINA.
The Chinese are no different than you and me; they love their families and they generally want to see a better world for everyone. In fact, the implication that the Chinese are somehow uniquely intolerant to change smacks vaguely of racism (please note, however, that I’m not insinuating that you are a racist).

The difference in China is that women are gaining their rights more slowly than in the West. But as I said in my last post, there is a rapid change currently underway. Women are moving from the farm into the city. While it’s true that too many of them are taking jobs in sweatshops, it’s also true that they’re getting out from “under the thumb” of their families. They're breaking a tradition that goes back some thousands of years. Roughly the same thing happened in America during the Second World War. American women were needed to fill jobs in factories while the men were away fighting the war. And even though they made far less money at their job than a man would have made, the important thing is that now they didn’t have to rely on a man for a paycheck. When the men returned home the women didn’t want to go back to the farm or go back to live in their mother’s house until they married. The rest, as they say...is history.

Best wishes,
Michael

What China needs is a really big war to even out the male/female ratio, somebody should suggest invading North Korea.

theoreticaly china could solv its population problem in just a couple generations by limiting the population growth

sure its sad to here about abortions but every country has thier ways

brazil lets the children grow then shoot them
africa kill the women while there pregnant
uk rounds up all the elderly and put em in homes
rusia just abandon entire towns

I agree with orthogonal here. Supply & demand problems take care of themselves. When a Chinese woman is more valuable than the value of maintaining the custom, the custom will dissolve.

In fact, the implication that the Chinese are somehow uniquely intolerant to change smacks vaguely of racism not unique, but how do you argue with 5 thousand years of culture, for some it will be like using leftie instruments for the first time, when you are right-handed. It’ll take a little practice for some, for others they’ll say, “why bother, we have done this like this for thousands of years.” Avant-garde anyone?

not everyone will be jumping into the 21 st century, without at least screaming & kicking a little


(please note, however, that I’m not insinuating that you are a racist).
actually, the chinese are like everybody else, they love, fight, think, argue like evrybody else, read some of the classics. they also include racists, of which I've been the target 3 times when I lived near Alhambra & Monterey Park in LA


Women are moving from the farm into the city. While it’s true that too many of them are taking jobs in sweatshops, it’s also true that they’re getting out from “under the thumb” of their families. They're breaking a tradition that goes back some thousands of years.
the start of the future for women there, but to what end? the future can be "Blade Runner", "Dark Angel" or "Star Trek", we're all in this together, where do we go?

"how can? Does a female have to produce 8 boys before she can retire ?"

Isn't it law that they can only have 1 child
or thats what my mom say's

being CDN-asian when i first learned of that type of ratio like 10 years ago it really did sicken me. However what sickens me most is that some of the parents that choose to keep their girls decide to sell them later because they know of the shortage. What will sicken me even further is if some of these parents actually get pregnant to sell.

Last I heard it was like 8 boys to every girl in china :eek: Its hards to believe it that bad.That is a very mis-leading statement. It should be more like for every 100 girls, there are 108 boys competing and 8 will become the losers. However, the extra 8 does add up to a lot in a country with a population near 1.3 billions.

the exact figure last time it was messured is 117 boys 4 every 100 girls. This combined with the one child policy and the prestigious value of boys gives china its problem, also im not sure but apparently the legal age for marraige is in the mid 20s?? not sure bout that though. The only solution is for them to change their customs which isnt easy. Personally i dont understand why 1 boy looking after u in old age is better than say 3 girls, surely 2gether they earn more than 1 boy???

Hi, all these things I read are interesting to say the least. I am an Australian male in love with a chinese lass. Beautiful and wonderful to me. What a predicament she lives with as she is in Australia and only child. Her family is traditional chinese. I wish to be a partner in life. But for her to marry me she can not have our child. She was sent here to learn and earn an income to obviously support her family. She can be supported by another male to have child it seems ... But can not be with me that way. Ironic, mad crazy mixed up world that some live in. We live a thousand miles apart in Australia and want to be close. I hate the thought of ever terminating a childs life. I would happily approach the family for her because that is right by my culture. She says her mother will say no and her father disagree Very confused as I am willing to support her family. Anyone have advice Please help a man with a potential broken dream ... Anyone reply please

I came across this info. while making a presentation for a class. Unbelievable:
There are 111 million men in China (roughly 3x the population of Canada) who will never marry. Why? Because there aren't enough Chinese women!!! Why? Because they kill female infants like they're mosquitos!! I'm sorry I said that so lightly but its true. Female infanticide is RAMPANT in China (and India, Pakistan, some African countries..if you think about it) & even though their sons will never marry, they still don't end it!! I thought the whole concept of having sons vs. daughters was so they could carry on the family name.. but if the guy has no woman to marry.. ummm
As a consequence, of this deficit of women, a huge slave trade has emerged where Vietnamese women are kidnapped & transported to China to serve as wives. Or, incestuous villages have emerged where almost every wedding is between a brother & sister or cousin & 1st cousin. :eek: :eek:

yeah, they are called bare branches. It's worrying everyone.
A shortage of women, is always bad long term.

I came across this info. while making a presentation for a class. Unbelievable:
There are 111 million men in China (roughly 3x the population of Canada) who will never marry. Why? Because there aren't enough Chinese women!!! Why? Because they kill female infants like they're mosquitos!! I'm sorry I said that so lightly but its true. Female infanticide is RAMPANT in China (and India, Pakistan, some African countries..if you think about it) & even though their sons will never marry, they still don't end it!! I thought the whole concept of having sons vs. daughters was so they could carry on the family name.. but if the guy has no woman to marry.. ummm
As a consequence, of this deficit of women, a huge slave trade has emerged where Vietnamese women are kidnapped & transported to China to serve as wives. Or, incestuous villages have emerged where almost every wedding is between a brother & sister or cousin & 1st cousin. :eek: :eek:

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "RAMPANT" unless you include legal abortions as infanticide too? To kill a living fetus is still classified as murder under Chinese law, and punishable accordingly. Most all of the masses dare not go this far, especially living under surveillance of others in such a high population. Still, almost - if not all? - adoptions from China are girls.

The total population is now about 1.3 billion with 515 million urban, growing by 3 million annualy. 111 million is 11.7%.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "RAMPANT" unless you include legal abortions as infanticide too? To kill a living fetus is still classified as murder under Chinese law, and punishable accordingly. Most all of the masses dare not go this far, especially living under surveillance of others in such a high population. Still, almost - if not all? - adoptions from China are girls.

The total population is now about 1.3 billion with 515 million urban, growing by 3 million annualy. 111 million is 11.7%.

here are some sites to check out

http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/specials/9908/china.social.overview/content/infanticide.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

It's tragic that girls are either abandoned or dumped and worse still, killed at birth before the birth can be registered:(.
Suppose the Chinese catch up with modern technology and simply abort the female babies? I assume that would be OK with you given your view on abortion.

Indeed, I've heard that much of the infantcide is done before the umbilical cord is cut, thus making them abortions!!! So that would be A-OK, right?

Hi, all these things I read are interesting to say the least. I am an Australian male in love with a chinese lass. Beautiful and wonderful to me.

... Anyone reply please

if you're really in love with just her(heart goes pitter-patter, sighs), too bad, sorry

but if you want to marry a chinese woman, or date chinese women, then you're in luck mate

if you're adventurous, here's a start

mail order brides
http://www.romancium.com/Chinese_Women.htm
http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2006/02/14/v-day-chinese-mail-order-brides
http://www.bridesbymail.com/mob/asia2.html

teach english in china
http://www.cbw.com/teaching/
http://teachoverseas.org/
http://www.aacircle.com.au/forums/teach-english-in-china/

chinese forums
http://www.chinese-forums.com/showthread.php?t=10888
http://zhongwen.com/chat.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/other/book/guestbook.php?book_id=123100

not your cup of tea, then google what is

P.S. learn more about the culture or go visit, should help with her family

Suppose the Chinese catch up with modern technology and simply abort the female babies? I assume that would be OK with you given your view on abortion.

Indeed, I've heard that much of the infantcide is done before the umbilical cord is cut, thus making them abortions!!! So that would be A-OK, right?

Whoa this is an old thread..

Contrary to what you may believe anthony, I would never support the wholesale slaughter of unborn foetuses and infantacide because they were of the wrong sex. I personally find the whole notion to be sickening and frankly backwards and primitive.

And the Chinese have caught up anthony. Women do have abortions because their babies aren't male in China and in other countries. There are also reports of the Chinese authorities forcing women to abort because they have broken the law and had more than one child, some are forced into late term (or full term) abortions. I cannot imagine anything worse, can you?

And the Chinese have caught up anthony. Women do have abortions because their babies aren't male in China and in other countries. There are also reports of the Chinese authorities forcing women to abort because they have broken the law and had more than one child, some are forced into late term (or full term) abortions. I cannot imagine anything worse, can you?
Indeed, I can't.

But, if abortion is not murder. If abortion is simply a matter of a woman controlling her body. Why shouldn't she be allowed to kill all female babys? Or all left handed fetuses? Or all fetuses with an IQ below a certain number? Perhaps all fetuses with brown eyes? On what basis can you object to these things while supporting "abortion on demand"?

Notice I slipped into calling them fetuses when speaking of their wholesale slaughter. A trick of the mind that makes the whole thing seem less vile.

Indeed, I can't.

But, if abortion is not murder. If abortion is simply a matter of a woman controlling her body. Why shouldn't she be allowed to kill all female babys? Or all left handed fetuses? Or all fetuses with an IQ below a certain number? Perhaps all fetuses with brown eyes? On what basis can you object to these things while supporting "abortion on demand"?

Notice I slipped into calling them fetuses when speaking of their wholesale slaughter. A trick of the mind that makes the whole thing seem less vile.
I view it differently. Hypocritical? Yes most probably. I support a woman's right to choose, but I'd withdraw that support if the woman was choosing to give birth to only one particular sex because her culture dictates that that sex is preferred.

Do I think aborting female foetuses because of their sex as a wholesale slaughter? Yes I do, when this is combined with the level of infanticide as well. I'd view the same with any culture who is willing to destroy any foetus because it's sex is not culturally appealing or seen as worthy. Girls in China are lucky if they are aborted, because if they are allowed to go full term, they can be either murdered upon birth by way of drowning, suffocation, etc or they are dumped into homes where they are abused and mistreated in ways that actually makes me sick. However it does not make aborting a foetus due to her sex any better or acceptable.

Do I think those girls should be aborted because they are unwanted due to their sex? No I do not. I think parents who decide to have a child should accept their child regardless of their sex and value and love that child no matter what. I will never support or agree with any society where one sex is ignored, killed or aborted indiscriminantly because of their sex. Lets not forget, couples in China decide to have a child and then some who find out that they are having a girl then decide to destroy that foetus because it happens to be a girl or murder it when it is born. We aren't talking of people who never planned to have children or did not want children at all. We are talking of people who wanted to have a child but demand that child be male, so will get rid of or kill any child that does not fit that criteria. I personally find the whole idea to be sickening.

I view it differently. Hypocritical? Yes most probably. I support a woman's right to choose, but I'd withdraw that support if the woman was choosing to give birth to only one particular sex because her culture dictates that that sex is preferred.
You said it. Abortion due to gender is wrong. But abortion due to mood is fine? A woman has the absolute right to control her body, but not if she only wants to bear male children?

What about eye color, height, obeisity, diabetes, myopia, mental illness, etc. Over time we will probably be able to detect there conditions as well as the sex of the baby. Is it OK to abort a fetus with any trait you do not desire?

If not, why not. It's her body!!!!!! Why should she be forced to carry a female baby she does not want?

...And still despite infanticide and lack of females, china manages to have the largest population ?????

how can? Does a female have to produce 8 boys before she can retire ?

This in a funny way reminds me of the US trade deficit, if the boys are suposed to take care for their old parents, all these boys need another 8 boys to take care for their pension while the female deficit is getting larger and larger!

This cannot continue forever? Hide your females, the chinese are coming to take our females :D

Thats just racist. ALL men like females. You don't "own" females so I don't know what you mean by "our", and I don't think females like to be treated that way either.

Also what makes you thnik Asian men will want American females? American females divorce a LOT, and are among the least loyal. You are correct, there will be a shortage of females, but that will harm us Americans more than it will harm people in China, and you assume they will come here, but I'm more worried about war. I worry that there could be a spike in aggression. It depends on what these males decide to do with their aggression, but if history serves as a guide, it's usually very very bad for diplomacy when there are way more males than females, it's bad because usually, culturally, and this is global not just in China, when the males want something, a lot of the time males think it's acceptable to use aggression to take it. Also, a lot of gangs and other problems seem to occur when the males are grouped up with each other.

In America, do you feel comfortable approach a group of young males? Likely not, even if you are a male, you arent going to want to approach a group of males, why? Because males are known for being aggressive, violent, gangsters, criminals and all that.

Women do the same sorta stuff, but males just have the threatening look simply because, most of the time groups of males do not get along.

I'll show you http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24761-2004Jul2.html

This is something that can be a security problem. It will mainly be a security problem for China at first, but there is no guarentee that it will stay in China.

There is also no guarentee that all these excess young males will resort to violence, I'm sure some of them won't, but anytime young men grow up and group up, bad things seem to follow. I'm sure most of us males can base this on our experiences, have we ever seen a group of young men hanging together who werent getting into some sorta trouble? Now imagine a population the size of China, and imagine where it could lead. I think the best situation would be if, in China women had a larger role in society, and then maybe it will be a happy ending, but if the trend continues and it stays male dominated, and theres more males, I don't see how it could be good for anyone, not good for China, not good for America, or for global security..

What could happen is that men from China could search elsewhere for bribes, there are plenty of women all over the third world, and if China is willing to open up it's borders this could be good. Don't automatically assume that American women are going to be rushing to go to China, but there will be plenty of women around the world who would just as soon go to China as go to America.

know what, as wrong as it is, you have a good point madanthonywayne. I think abandoning girls to die is a good deal worse than getting them aborted at an early stage. If we can solve the earlier, lets, then let's work on solving the ethics of abortion.

I view it differently. Hypocritical? Yes most probably. I support a woman's right to choose, but I'd withdraw that support if the woman was choosing to give birth to only one particular sex because her culture dictates that that sex is preferred.

Do I think aborting female foetuses because of their sex as a wholesale slaughter? Yes I do, when this is combined with the level of infanticide as well. I'd view the same with any culture who is willing to destroy any foetus because it's sex is not culturally appealing or seen as worthy. Girls in China are lucky if they are aborted, because if they are allowed to go full term, they can be either murdered upon birth by way of drowning, suffocation, etc or they are dumped into homes where they are abused and mistreated in ways that actually makes me sick. However it does not make aborting a foetus due to her sex any better or acceptable.

Do I think those girls should be aborted because they are unwanted due to their sex? No I do not. I think parents who decide to have a child should accept their child regardless of their sex and value and love that child no matter what. I will never support or agree with any society where one sex is ignored, killed or aborted indiscriminantly because of their sex. Lets not forget, couples in China decide to have a child and then some who find out that they are having a girl then decide to destroy that foetus because it happens to be a girl or murder it when it is born. We aren't talking of people who never planned to have children or did not want children at all. We are talking of people who wanted to have a child but demand that child be male, so will get rid of or kill any child that does not fit that criteria. I personally find the whole idea to be sickening.

Don't worry, it's going to come here too. People will abort based on skin color here, so we Americans are no better. In the near future we will have the ability to select a gender and race, and all the abortioning will be ended, at least this sort.

Maybe instead of telling people how bad they are, you should just tel them about the technology that lets people select. Maybe women have it extremely bad in China, do you know what it's like to be a woman in China?

Would you be against it if black babies were aborted because of their skin color?

know what, as wrong as it is, you have a good point madanthonywayne. I think abandoning girls to die is a good deal worse than getting them aborted at an early stage. If we can solve the earlier, lets, then let's work on solving the ethics of abortion.

Does this mean we should abort the disabled? Afterall they will have a life of oppression, what about all the minorities? Abort them? I mean all minorities have a life of oppression. Would society really be better if it were filled with white males?

I think, while I don't like the practice of abortion, I do think parents should be able to select the genes o f their children. If parents decide to remove a certain gene or shut it off, or have only a certain gender, they should have that choice. They should be able to select the race AND the gender of their children, and if parents want to have all blonde white male children, they should have that option.

Women are useless, I can't blame them :p. Also, Chinese men will prolly go to other countries to satisfy their need for women.

Women are useless, I can't blame them :p. Also, Chinese men will prolly go to other countries to satisfy their need for women.

What are men useful for? starting wars?

Ideally, men and women must be useful, or humans arent.

I came across this info. while making a presentation for a class. Unbelievable:
There are 111 million men in China (roughly 3x the population of Canada) who will never marry. Why? Because there aren't enough Chinese women!!! Why? Because they kill female infants like they're mosquitos!! I'm sorry I said that so lightly but its true. Female infanticide is RAMPANT in China (and India, Pakistan, some African countries..if you think about it) & even though their sons will never marry, they still don't end it!! I thought the whole concept of having sons vs. daughters was so they could carry on the family name.. but if the guy has no woman to marry.. ummm
As a consequence, of this deficit of women, a huge slave trade has emerged where Vietnamese women are kidnapped & transported to China to serve as wives. Or, incestuous villages have emerged where almost every wedding is between a brother & sister or cousin & 1st cousin. :eek: :eek:

I am sorry to say this, but Chinese women are not exactly the beauties to strive for the life for. In fact...they rank the lowest in attraction amongst all women of Earth in my view.

You said it. Abortion due to gender is wrong. But abortion due to mood is fine? A woman has the absolute right to control her body, but not if she only wants to bear male children?

You tell me.

I do not believe in selective breeding. You either have a child or you do not. I don't believe in picking or choosing what you have when you decide to have it. It is hypocritical, but that's what I believe.

Women in China don't just "want" to have boys. Society expects them to. Their husbands and families expect them to. Male babies are valued more than female babies. They are treated differently and viewed differently.

What about eye color, height, obeisity, diabetes, myopia, mental illness, etc. Over time we will probably be able to detect there conditions as well as the sex of the baby. Is it OK to abort a fetus with any trait you do not desire?
I've said before, if you decide to have a child, you have a child. One should not pick or choose the traits or sex of a child as one would buying a pair of shoes for example.

--------------------------------------

Don't worry, it's going to come here too. People will abort based on skin color here, so we Americans are no better. In the near future we will have the ability to select a gender and race, and all the abortioning will be ended, at least this sort.
How comforting for you.

Oh and I am concerned.

Maybe instead of telling people how bad they are, you should just tel them about the technology that lets people select. Maybe women have it extremely bad in China, do you know what it's like to be a woman in China?

Boys are preferred in China because of the cultural belief they will be able to stay with their parents after marriage and care for them, while girls are not preferred because when they marry they are seen to be the ones to move away to live with their husbands and their inlaws. For example, a Chinese couple with a farm will prefer to have a boy due to the notion the boy will stay with them and help them tend the land and the parents needs when they grow old and the land will stay in the family, but if they have a girl, the girl will move to tend to her husband's land.

And people know the technology exists. It's not just in China but in other countries and cultures as well.

Would you be against it if black babies were aborted because of their skin color?
You feel the need to ask? As a person of colour and a parent, you're damn straight I am against aborting a child because it might be black. I am not a racist hell bent on creating an 'uber' white race to rule the world. I do not judge others or consider an individual to be somehow worthless or somehow less human because they are not white.

Does this mean we should abort the disabled? Afterall they will have a life of oppression, what about all the minorities? Abort them? I mean all minorities have a life of oppression. Would society really be better if it were filled with white males?
If society were filled with white males, then you'd be in trouble.

I think, while I don't like the practice of abortion, I do think parents should be able to select the genes o f their children. If parents decide to remove a certain gene or shut it off, or have only a certain gender, they should have that choice. They should be able to select the race AND the gender of their children, and if parents want to have all blonde white male children, they should have that option.
Why am I somehow not surprised by this statement from you?

Isn't this what Hitler wanted for his Germany? I don't believe in the practice of eugenics.

And a society filled with blonde white males through the practice of selective breeding? Sounds like a horror movie...

Nope. In the US, more male babies are killed than female babies.

Yes, but that's only because feminists have been fighting for 30 years to bring about more equality in this area.

You tell me.

I do not believe in selective breeding. You either have a child or you do not. I don't believe in picking or choosing what you have when you decide to have it. It is hypocritical, but that's what I believe.

Women in China don't just "want" to have boys. Society expects them to. Their husbands and families expect them to. Male babies are valued more than female babies. They are treated differently and viewed differently.


I've said before, if you decide to have a child, you have a child. One should not pick or choose the traits or sex of a child as one would buying a pair of shoes for example.

--------------------------------------


How comforting for you.

Oh and I am concerned.


Boys are preferred in China because of the cultural belief they will be able to stay with their parents after marriage and care for them, while girls are not preferred because when they marry they are seen to be the ones to move away to live with their husbands and their inlaws. For example, a Chinese couple with a farm will prefer to have a boy due to the notion the boy will stay with them and help them tend the land and the parents needs when they grow old and the land will stay in the family, but if they have a girl, the girl will move to tend to her husband's land.

And people know the technology exists. It's not just in China but in other countries and cultures as well.


You feel the need to ask? As a person of colour and a parent, you're damn straight I am against aborting a child because it might be black. I am not a racist hell bent on creating an 'uber' white race to rule the world. I do not judge others or consider an individual to be somehow worthless or somehow less human because they are not white.


If society were filled with white males, then you'd be in trouble.


Why am I somehow not surprised by this statement from you?

Isn't this what Hitler wanted for his Germany? I don't believe in the practice of eugenics.

And a society filled with blonde white males through the practice of selective breeding? Sounds like a horror movie...



I agree with selective breeding. I can agree to disagree with you. Why on earth would you want to birth a child into misery and oppression if you have the option not to? Racism is never going to end, it's going to progressively get worse and worse. If you could choose the race of your baby, why would you choose to have your baby be a minority? This is equal to two gay parents choosing to have their baby be gay, why would they do it?

I think humans should all pick a standard race, because people hate diversity and it does not matter what a minority like yourself says. It's not going to change the fact, that the worth of your life is based on the color of your skin, so if you can choose the worth of your babies life it makes perfect sense to make them worth as much as possible.

It also makes sense to make them straight, highly intelligent, and male, unless you are in America, then you can make them female. Do you see my point?

I'm a trans-humanist, I don't care what our species ends up looking like, as long as the species has a better chance of survival. If the species decides that brown skin is a disability, then parents should have the ability to choose white skin. If society defines blonde aryan to be the highest caste, parents should have the ability to choose based on what they can afford.

Why would you not want to have control over the race and genes of your baby? You want to give birth to a downsyndrome baby? you want to give birth to a baby that will be hated by the world because of it's appearance?you want to give birth to a diseased baby?

Thats a bit odd. You should back up your opinions with some reasons for why you are against gene selection and selective breeding because I'm all for it, I think we need to be as selective as possible, not for the benefit of any race, but for the benefit of the species. I think you can see at this point I don't care which race controls the world, because I don't care about the concept of race. I only care about the species itself, whatever race wins, should become the default race, and people should then choose to give birth to babies in the default race, because it's rational.

Why am I somehow not surprised by this statement from you?

Isn't this what Hitler wanted for his Germany? I don't believe in the practice of eugenics.

And a society filled with blonde white males through the practice of selective breeding? Sounds like a horror movie.

The problem with Hitler was not simply that he wanted a world of white babies. It was HOW he went about doing it. He decided to brutally murder millions of people. this did not help whatever his goal was. The holocaust was bad, not because of what Hitler wanted, but because he let his hatred guide him.

Let's see, if people could select their race, the result could still be the same, no one would be killed, no one would be harmed, it would be painless. What's wrong with this?

I'm not for the holocaust, but I am for selective breeding, I think people should try to have the most intelligent babies possible. I think people should try to have babies that won't be oppressed. I don't really think that an aryan world would look better or more interesting, but I'm also not motivated to control how the human species looks, I don't care about the aesthetics of our species. I like women of all the races so far, I have not met a race that I did not think at least one woman was attractive. From my perspective, it makes no difference which one becomes standard, and while I like diversity, and variety, I also realize the majority of the world hates diversity and variety, so ultimately, it's going to be that we either choose a race, or billions will die.

Which do you prefer?

I am sorry to say this, but Chinese women are not exactly the beauties to strive for the life for. In fact...they rank the lowest in attraction amongst all women of Earth in my view.

Why so racist?

Chinese women are as beautiful as all the others. Unless you just don't like women, but thats your problem.

That's no more racist than saying that Chinese women tend to live in China.

Why on earth would you want to birth a child into misery and oppression if you have the option not to? Racism is never going to end, it's going to progressively get worse and worse.
Hmm maybe instead of attempting to breed the perfect human as though we were breeding cattle, we could simply attempt to change society to be more accepting of those who weren't blonde, white and male.. hmm?.. Oh wait, considering that blonde, white males aren't exactly in the majority, I seem to doubt it is somehow the "preferred" race. My son is olive skinned with light brown/dark blonde hair and green eyes. He is literally a mix of my husband and myself in colouring and features. He does not fit your criteria of "the perfect species", yet he is neither oppressed by society, nor is he suffering any misery caused by society. But then again I guess it's just the company he keeps. Company that does not care he is not white and blonde.

If you could choose the race of your baby, why would you choose to have your baby be a minority? This is equal to two gay parents choosing to have their baby be gay, why would they do it?
Judging by the number of different races that exist, how can you say any child is somehow in a minority while attempting to give the 'uber' race of aryan babies as being somehow superior? As I said before, look around any city and I can bet you anything that blonde, white males are not somehow in the majority in the world.

Oh and two gay parents cannot have children considering both would be of the same sex. An external entity would have to be involved.

I think humans should all pick a standard race, because people hate diversity and it does not matter what a minority like yourself says.
Why should there be a standard race where everyone is exactly the same? You should start a post asking everyone if it would be ideal that everyone be born blonde, male and white, with only a few females thrown in to allow for continued selective breeding. I am sure if you rustled up enough of your racist little buddies you'd get enough support. Too bad for you that what you think and hope for will not happen because the majority do not think as you do. Oh and minorities like myself, as much as you may hate us, do matter and do have a voice. Pisses you off doesn't it?

You see, I am glad to be a "minority" because it pisses people like you off. Brings a smile to my face just thinking about it.:)

It's not going to change the fact, that the worth of your life is based on the color of your skin, so if you can choose the worth of your babies life it makes perfect sense to make them worth as much as possible.
Worthless how? How exactly do you value or place worth on a child?

Colour of skin, hair, eyes, sex? My how shallow you are. You should move to China!

It also makes sense to make them straight, highly intelligent, and male, unless you are in America, then you can make them female. Do you see my point?

No I do not. Frankly I find your point to be distasteful, insulting and vile. But I'm sure you get that a lot.

I'm a trans-humanist, I don't care what our species ends up looking like, as long as the species has a better chance of survival. If the species decides that brown skin is a disability, then parents should have the ability to choose white skin. If society defines blonde aryan to be the highest caste, parents should have the ability to choose based on what they can afford.

You don't care what it looks like, but you keep coming back to the blonde and white aspect. Ya, you're not a racist at all. It's just your hope that all will one day be blonde, blue eyed and aryan. How perfectly.. boring..

Why would the species decide that brown skin is somehow a disablity? Considering that everyone has brown skin of different shades, I'd hardly think we'd all brand ourselves somehow disabled and attempt to breed ourselves out of extinction through 'selective breeding'. White skin, as such, does not exist in the purest form of white. It is beige, more than anything and beige being a light version of brown.. you get my drift?

Oh and if you consider 'white skin' to be superior, you'd best attempt to make white people immune to skin cancer as the lack of melanine in your skin makes you less 'superior' when compared to a brown skinned individual.

Why would you not want to have control over the race and genes of your baby?
Why would I want too? Considering I am a human being as is my husband, it's a sure bet our children will be part of the human race. That's pretty much all we care about. As to their genes, well they're half mine and half my husband's.

You want to give birth to a downsyndrome baby? you want to give birth to a baby that will be hated by the world because of it's appearance?you want to give birth to a diseased baby?
You are judging the world based on your own warped view of it. If you desire all children to be of aryan caste, it does not mean that the rest of human kind desires the same thing. Why would society somehow hate my children because of their appearance? Does the fact he has olive skin, dark blonde hair and green eyes somehow make him inferior? In your world maybe, in my world no. Hell we don't care what colour he is. He's healthy and happy and that's all that matters to us. If the child I am currently expecting turns out to suffer from down syndrome then it suffers from it and will be loved and adored regardless. I'd rather have a down syndrome child than have a child who grew up to think that people should attempt to only breed blonde, white male children of aryan caste. But that's just me.

Thats a bit odd. You should back up your opinions with some reasons for why you are against gene selection and selective breeding because I'm all for it, I think we need to be as selective as possible, not for the benefit of any race, but for the benefit of the species.
You still have failed to give a reason as to why a certain "race" will somehow benefit the species more than any other. So far all you've been able to argue is that white, blonde and male children of aryan class should somehow be seen to be superior.

I think you can see at this point I don't care which race controls the world, because I don't care about the concept of race. I only care about the species itself, whatever race wins, should become the default race, and people should then choose to give birth to babies in the default race, because it's rational.

Right.. again, so why do you keep saying that white, blonde males of aryan class though? After all, if it can be any race, why do you propose that brown skin is somehow a disability and not other colours? After all, as I pointed out to you, 'white skin' has the disablity of not having the melanine to cope with the amount of sunlight it receives, resulting in early deaths of many people. Don't say you don't care because you do care. So much so that you are all for breeding certain colours and 'races' out of existence to bring about that superior aryan race because you think it is the superior race.

Why do you think there needs to be a superior race and a default race? Is it based on colour, sex? You see, if you are going to look at successful breeding in regards to race, then in short white people are screwed as they are losing the race compared to others of different colours and 'races'.

The problem with Hitler was not simply that he wanted a world of white babies. It was HOW he went about doing it. He decided to brutally murder millions of people. this did not help whatever his goal was. The holocaust was bad, not because of what Hitler wanted, but because he let his hatred guide him.
Oh good grief. So how would you have done things differently? Sterilised all those you considered of the inferior races and only allowed those with the 'wanted' traits (blonde, white of aryan caste) to breed?

You see TT, the holocaust was bad because of what he was trying to achieve and the manner in which he attempted to achieve his goals. The fact you don't get that says a lot about you.

Let's see, if people could select their race, the result could still be the same, no one would be killed, no one would be harmed, it would be painless. What's wrong with this?

Lets have a looksy shall we? For a start, you'd have to ensure that only a certain group of people were allowed to breed, and use their eggs and sperm to impregnate others, resulting in a disproportionate number of people with the same genes running around. And I am sure that even you would recognise the dangers of inter-breeding.

As to preventing others from breeding, you'd have to use force to stop them from doing so. You'd either have to adopt Hitler's means and kill them or use violence and force to sterilise them. Hmmm.. I don't know about you but I find the whole notion to be quite disgusting. Because you would harm those of the 'default' race by either measures.

I'm not for the holocaust, but I am for selective breeding, I think people should try to have the most intelligent babies possible. I think people should try to have babies that won't be oppressed. I don't really think that an aryan world would look better or more interesting, but I'm also not motivated to control how the human species looks, I don't care about the aesthetics of our species. I like women of all the races so far, I have not met a race that I did not think at least one woman was attractive. From my perspective, it makes no difference which one becomes standard, and while I like diversity, and variety, I also realize the majority of the world hates diversity and variety, so ultimately, it's going to be that we either choose a race, or billions will die.

Why the need to standardise? Why does there need to be a preferred race and one that is deemed inferior because of its colour, sex, sexuality, etc? From my perspective, I find it kind of ridiculous to even want to aspire to such an ideal. How boring would life be if we were all the same shade? While you may say you find women of all races attractive, how would you pick which one comes out on top in regards to breeding the right colour? What makes you think that billions will die unless we decide on one particular colour to breed and aspire too? Billions will die to other causes such as illness, old age, starvation, wars, etc. You can't get rid of death. Death is the natural course of life. Breeding the 'uber' race wont save them from death. Death, like taxes, is inevitable.

Don't you get it? We are all one colour, just different and diverse shades. Diversity is what makes us all unique. All being the same would not make us unique. It would make us all exactly the same.

That's no more racist than saying that Chinese women tend to live in China.

To say they are ugly, is either racist, or ignorant. Which do you prefer being called?

Hmm maybe instead of attempting to breed the perfect human as though we were breeding cattle, we could simply attempt to change society to be more accepting of those who weren't blonde, white and male.. hmm?..

People already tried that. They failed. Game over. The world is racist, and the people who are in power are old. You might not see humans as cattle, but humans are treated as cattle and have been treated as cattle for thousands of years, even before race was invented. You have to accept reality for what it is, because it's not going to change just because you wish for it to change, you won't get far trying to change reality, especially in your position. If you have not been looking at recent history, the civil rights movement did not end racism. No amount of policy can cure a flawed species.

Oh wait, considering that blonde, white males aren't exactly in the majority, I seem to doubt it is somehow the "preferred" race.

They don't have to be in the majority, if the majority of the global population prefer blonde males to be in power, they will be in power. This has nothing to do with me, or you, because, at least in my case. I'm too young to matter. All the current situations you see now, are because of decisions our parents made, and the battles of the 60s, which I had nothing to do with. I'm more worried about the next series of battles, like genetic discrimination, and our species going extinct, the 60s is the past, and it's pointless to try to worry about the past. So all the race stuff, and vietnam, and all that stuff, it's from the past. The concept of race being black and white is from the past. The concept of the battle of the races is also from the past.

My generation has a different set of problems, we have to worry about the entire species going extinct, and if it's determined that the best way to save the species from extinction is to have one race of blonde aryans, then we should do whats best for our species. It does not matter who wins the "race war" or whatever the hell the older generations are fighting over. I'm only concerned with the human race and it's survival into the distant future, and the current concept of race is threatening the survival of our species. Our species includes blondes, you do realize that don't you?


My son is olive skinned with light brown/dark blonde hair and green eyes. He is literally a mix of my husband and myself in colouring and features. He does not fit your criteria of "the perfect species", yet he is neither oppressed by society, nor is he suffering any misery caused by society.

I never said blonde is my definition of perfect species. I have no preference in appearance. I don't give a damn what any of you people look like. I do give a damn how people are feeling. I do realize that there is a lot of misery and hate in the world, and I don't think it will end just by making everyone the same race, don't get me wrong, I'm saying people should have every option to reduce the misery in the world. When you remove options, you INCREASE MISERY for people. That is morally wrong, do you understand this point of view?

If you don't allow people to choose, you will increase suicides and people will abort themselves.


But then again I guess it's just the company he keeps. Company that does not care he is not white and blonde.

I don't care about his race, your race, I don't care about his appearance, your appearance, none of it matters to me. This is why people should be able to select whatever appearance they want. I'm not attached to any of them. I think all appearances are equally beautiful and equally ugly, depending on who is underneath it.



Judging by the number of different races that exist, how can you say any child is somehow in a minority while attempting to give the 'uber' race of aryan babies as being somehow superior?

The world society decides which appearance is superior, not you, not me. I'm saying if the world society defines beauty, why should you not be able to, with enough money, select the most beautiful baby you can afford? You and I, we don't define beauty, THEY do. And THEY means the racist society, which is the majority.

As I said before, look around any city and I can bet you anything that blonde, white males are not somehow in the majority in the world.

They don't have to be, I don't mean that sort of majority. I mean if blonde males hold the majority of the power, of course every parent is going to want their child to be blonde and male. This is not a good reason, but it's rational. It's the same thinking that a Chinese parent might have when deciding to have a boy over a girl. It makes perfect sense, don't try to pretend like it's irrational just because you aren't feeling it.


Oh and two gay parents cannot have children considering both would be of the same sex. An external entity would have to be involved.


Gay people can have children.


Why should there be a standard race where everyone is exactly the same?

Because thats what the racists of the world want. This is never going to end until they get what they want. So the option, do you want the world to end and the species to go extinct, or do you want a standard race? Pick. I admit, I'm not exactly comfortable with the idea of a standard race either, because I like the variety of appearances, and I'd get bored if all women looked the same. But honestly, I don't care enough about how women look, to value appearance over the survival of the species. I'd rather we have a standard race and survive than have diversity and extinction.


You should start a post asking everyone if it would be ideal that everyone be born blonde, male and white, with only a few females thrown in to allow for continued selective breeding. I am sure if you rustled up enough of your racist little buddies you'd get enough support.

I'm not racist. Stop trying to call me a racist just because I have race neutral views. The views I have, would not harm you in any way, would not harm racists in any way, and would make all sides happy, as long as all sides would like to see a non-violent solution, and would like to ensure the survival of the species. I don't think about race in my day to day activities, other people do, because they do and refuse to stop, or just can't stop, eventually it's going to force people to selectively breed.

How bad do you want to see minorities suffering before you come to the conclusion, that race should be selected in the lab? Look at Africa, the only reason Africa gets treated like that is because Africans look different. The different appearances are holding the species back, and only the species matters. We need to pick a race standard.


Too bad for you that what you think and hope for will not happen because the majority do not think as you do. Oh and minorities like myself, as much as you may hate us, do matter and do have a voice. Pisses you off doesn't it?

You just don't get it. First I don't hate. Second, I don't see you are a race, I see you as a collection of genes. Third, you are too naive to make sense.

You don't seem like a bad person, I respect where you are coming from, I understand how you feel, but you have to think with your brain for just this once. Your appearance does not matter, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it.No one is going to fight to protect your appearance, because the majority of the world at this time prefers the blonde look, for whatever reason. Don't ask me why as if I'm some sorta psycho-analyist, I'm not, and don't ask me why the world is racist, I don't know. I'm not racist, I'm trans-humanist. The difference between a trans-humanist and a racist, a trans-humanist cares about survival of the species, and cares about the betterment of mankind, as a whole, through intelligent selection. This could mean for example, choosing greater intelligence in the lab just as easily as it could mean choosing different appearances.

A racist on the other hand, and I've debated with some on this forum, would rather not have people be able to select their genes, at least if the racist is poor and cannot afford to select.You see, in the trans-humanist world, class becomes race. If you can afford to design your baby, you'll have an intelligent, perfectly beautiful baby, if you can't, you'll have to deal with whatever your genepool gives you.

Race will exist either way, but in the trans-humanist world, people will have more control, their babies WILL be intelligent because we will eventually find the genes that control this. Babies can be whatever race parents want, if the parents start to believe that black is beautiful, parents can select dark skin, no ones going to stop them, however if parents continue to think as they do now, and things stay as they do right now, then parents should have the option to choose whatever race they want for their baby. If you want to, you could choose to have whatever you want for your babies appearance, whats wrong with this?


You see, I am glad to be a "minority" because it pisses people like you off. Brings a smile to my face just thinking about it.:)

I'm not pissed off. You assume I'm racist, but you've never read any of my posts or know any of my views. I think you are more racist than I am because you are too busy trying to be proud, that you don't see the bigger picture, which is that our species will proudly go extinct if you don't do something to fix the current situation. You can be proud all you want, it's not going to matter when theres no world left and no society. You have to think about the world your child will grow up in, really think about it. Do you want your child to inherit all this?


Worthless how? How exactly do you value or place worth on a child?

Personally I don't place value on appearance, but the majority of the world does. Accept the fact that the majority of the world population are racist, and sexist.


Colour of skin, hair, eyes, sex? My how shallow you are. You should move to China!


The majority of the world is shallow, it does not matter where you go. I'm not shallow, thats why I don't think appearance matters, to me appearance is like the suit you wear to work. We all have to wear the same suit and tie, because thats standard, eventually race may become the same way. It's better to define a standard than to watch the company go bankrupt over something stupid like dresscodes and other bullshit. If not a standard, at least let people choose what to wear to work.

No I do not. Frankly I find your point to be distasteful, insulting and vile. But I'm sure you get that a lot.

Consequentialism, does the species ultimately survive? If yes, then my point is morally correct even if it's distasteful, it's not like you have any better idea, do you? Of course you don't. If you did we'd have heard your better ideas.


You don't care what it looks like, but you keep coming back to the blonde and white aspect. Ya, you're not a racist at all. It's just your hope that all will one day be blonde, blue eyed and aryan. How perfectly.. boring..

You assume I'm only capable of making arguements from my personal point of view. If I don't care, I literally don't care, and I can make the arguement from any point of view. If the world were run by Asians, then I'd have said all children should look Asian, if the world were run by Africans, I'd say all children should look African. But there is no demand for these appearances it seems, it seems that even today, people prefer blondes. In specific, tall blondes. I never said I prefer tall blondes, I said the majority.

I never said I agreed with Hitler, I said that a lot of people agree with Hitlers vision. Many people disagree with the holocaust, not because of the vision, but the means, the methods, and the violence to bring forth that vision. I'm not talking about eugenics either, it's 2006, I'm talking about genetics. Eugenics don't really matter much at all, what matters is genetics.


Why would the species decide that brown skin is somehow a disablity?

How the hell should I know? The species already decided though. The people who control the world decided, they are the decision makers, and they define beauty and ugly, not me, not you, not this forum. Racism is just aestheticism, it's an excuse to define beauty. It's not a real science. I don't believe eugenics are a real science either. I think genetics are real science, because this has been proven in lab experiements, unlike race, unlike eugenics.


Considering that everyone has brown skin of different shades, I'd hardly think we'd all brand ourselves somehow disabled and attempt to breed ourselves out of extinction through 'selective breeding'.

No one said you have to go extinct. You just don't get it. You are not your brown skin, you are your brain, your mind, and your entire body, your skin is the least important part of your body. If you want to define yourself by that then it's your problem.

What I'm saying is, if you can choose in a lab what your baby will look like, the brown skin gene would go extinct, the important genes will pass on, in specific the genes that the species collectively decides it values.


White skin, as such, does not exist in the purest form of white. It is beige, more than anything and beige being a light version of brown.. you get my drift?

whatever, you are trying to be technical.


Oh and if you consider 'white skin' to be superior, you'd best attempt to make white people immune to skin cancer as the lack of melanine in your skin makes you less 'superior' when compared to a brown skinned individual.

Maybe it's not superior, maybe you are right about cancer, maybe thats why most people on earth don't have white skin, but it does not change the fact that society is designed to favor white skin.


Why would I want too? Considering I am a human being as is my husband, it's a sure bet our children will be part of the human race. That's pretty much all we care about. As to their genes, well they're half mine and half my husband's.

If you on;y care about the human race, then appearances don't matter. Aesthetics can be selected in the lab, as can sexuality, if you don't want a homosexual child you should be able to shut the gene off if we discover it's a gene, the same with obesity, the same with any of the diseases, if we can shut them off, why not? It would still be your child, the child would still be you, the only difference is the child would not have any diseases and would be healthier.



You are judging the world based on your own warped view of it.

You are misinterpreting me. I'm not judging the world. The world has judged itself. The world is organized like this for a reason, because people who are older than us already made decisions which the rest of us live with. So bad decisions of the past, lead to difficult decisions in the future. Options are limited, you have to save the species from itself, how do you do it? do you continue to go on doing what you've been doing and watch us go extinct?


If you desire all children to be of aryan caste, it does not mean that the rest of human kind desires the same thing.

If I were wrong, why are there more racists in society than non-racists? Explain that.


Why would society somehow hate my children because of their appearance?

Because some people hate your children just because they exist, and in specific it's because they hate the appearance, the same way some people hate spiders or snakes because of how they look.


Does the fact he has olive skin, dark blonde hair and green eyes somehow make him inferior? In your world maybe, in my world no.

This has nothing to do with me or you. This has to do with what the Nazi's think. Once again, you can go on trying to pretend like Nazi's do not exist, or like their opinons do not matter, but they do exist, and their opinions do matter. It would make a lot of racists happy if there were a standard race. It has nothing to do with us, it's about them. In order to have any sorta solution, you have to take into account the wishes of all sides. If millions, or billions of people, decide that they want a standard appearance, there is not much you can do to stop it. Just like if millions in America want to make certain states "Whites only" there is nothing you can do about it. Do you realize this?

So what is your solution? how do you save humanity from itself? How do you satisify all sides?
But that's just me.


Hell we don't care what colour he is. He's healthy and happy and that's all that matters to us. If the child I am currently expecting turns out to suffer from down syndrome then it suffers from it and will be loved and adored regardless. I'd rather have a down syndrome child than have a child who grew up to think that people should attempt to only breed blonde, white male children of aryan caste.

What if the majority of the world disagrees with you? What if the majority of the world, prefers the Aryan caste?

You are right, I don't know what every individual is thinking, but I know how people are behaving, and it seems that the majority of the world accepts the ideology.


You still have failed to give a reason as to why a certain "race" will somehow benefit the species more than any other. So far all you've been able to argue is that white, blonde and male children of aryan class should somehow be seen to be superior.


I don't care about races. My point of view is really simple. If humanity survives as blonde babies, so be it, at least theres babies. Would you rather we go extinct because you want to hold on to your appearance?


Right.. again, so why do you keep saying that white, blonde males of aryan class though? After all, if it can be any race, why do you propose that brown skin is somehow a disability and not other colours?

Because until our leaders decide to change, it's just the way it is.

After all, as I pointed out to you, 'white skin' has the disablity of not having the melanine to cope with the amount of sunlight it receives, resulting in early deaths of many people.

I never said I disagreed with you. I'm just saying, our leaders make the decisions on which skin is most valueable. I don't, and you don't, and thats all.

Don't say you don't care because you do care. So much so that you are all for breeding certain colours and 'races' out of existence to bring about that superior aryan race because you think it is the superior race.

If we had a black President, a black vice President, and if the whole EU were switched and black people were presidents all over the EU, and in Africa there where white people suffering, my opinion would be that humans have choose the black appearance. They are all human to me, no matter the position, the place, the appearance, suffering is suffering, and I'd feel it if it were white people suffering in Africa, or black people suffering in Africa, or asians, or any other kinda people. Do you get my point? Whichever group of people who is in control at the time defines the standard appearance, not me, not you. So it doesnt really matter to me who looks like what, all that matters is that the species does not go extinct. I don't really care what people end up looking like to be honest.


Why do you think there needs to be a superior race and a default race? Is it based on colour, sex? You see, if you are going to look at successful breeding in regards to race, then in short white people are screwed as they are losing the race compared to others of different colours and 'races'.

Because thats what the world society thinks. Ask the decision makers of the world why they make the decisions they make. Ask the census why it forces you to choose a race or even asks. Ask people why they still promote the concept of race, and still teach it in class, and in the same class teach how blacks were slaves since forever and ignore the rest of history, and in the same school teach how whites dominated and conquered the earth. Why don't you ask these questions, and get some answers, and when you get the answers, then you can decide what you want to do about it, because right now you arent doing anything.


Oh good grief. So how would you have done things differently? Sterilised all those you considered of the inferior races and only allowed those with the 'wanted' traits (blonde, white of aryan caste) to breed?

Thats unncessary. I never said it's a good idea to sterilize people. I told you once again, theres no such thing as race, only genes. This means that sterilizing people is inefficient, wasteful, and likely to do more harm than good, really to me theres no difference genetically between the appearances, I don't think sterilizing people of different appearances would accomplish anything. I do think letting people selectively breed would accomplish something, because unlike removing genes from the gene pool, this allows people to precisely add their best genes to the gene pool, thats the difference.

Sterilizing I'd say slows evolution down, and it's a bit violent.


You see TT, the holocaust was bad because of what he was trying to achieve and the manner in which he attempted to achieve his goals. The fact you don't get that says a lot about you.

Sterilizing is morally wrong because it's unneccessary and it's violent. Abortion however, which accomplishes the same thing without sterilizing, how is that wrong? People who don't want children don't have to have them. I'm saying add choices, not take them away, can you see the difference? I'm not even for abortion, because I'd rather people be able to select individual genes, and I'm definately not for sterilization, thats going backwards, and it's even more morally wrong than abortion.


Lets have a looksy shall we? For a start, you'd have to ensure that only a certain group of people were allowed to breed, and use their eggs and sperm to impregnate others, resulting in a disproportionate number of people with the same genes running around. And I am sure that even you would recognise the dangers of inter-breeding.

I never said that. I never said limit gene diversity. I said let people CHOOSE genes, and CHOOSE appearances. This does not limit gene diversity. What exact is your skin gene so useful for? What exactly is your eye color gene useful for? What is downsymdrome useful for? A lot of these genes, which we inherit, have no use in todays society. They might have been useful in the past, but now they have little to no use beyond aesthetics.

As to preventing others from breeding, you'd have to use force to stop them from doing so.

We are not in the 1800s, or the 1920s, or the 1900s, we are in 2000. You don't have to prevent others from breeding if people can select genes. But if people can't select genes then maybe you do. Do you see the point ?


You'd either have to adopt Hitler's means and kill them or use violence and force to sterilise them. Hmmm.. I don't know about you but I find the whole notion to be quite disgusting. Because you would harm those of the 'default' race by either measures.

You still don't get it. I don't know if you are pretending to be stupid or trying to be stupid on purpose. If you can choose your genes in a lab, then any two people can breed of any two appearances, and activate or deactivate the genes they want or don't want. There will be no need to prevent anyone from breeding, or to use violence, because science is advanced enough at this point to activate and deactivate genes without violence. This is not the dark ages where if someone got the black plague you had to kill them and burn the body, this is 2006, where we can cure the black plague in a lab.

And no, I'm not trying to be racist by using the term "black plague", but this is how racists tend to see it. So it's not going to matter how non-racists see the world, because no one listens to non-racists. Did people listen to Martin Luther King? Few cared what he had to say, in fact he got shot and killed.


Why the need to standardise? Why does there need to be a preferred race and one that is deemed inferior because of its colour, sex, sexuality, etc?

Go to a Nazi website, and ask them.


From my perspective, I find it kind of ridiculous to even want to aspire to such an ideal. How boring would life be if we were all the same shade?

Yeah so? You should ask your superiors why they want the world like this.


While you may say you find women of all races attractive, how would you pick which one comes out on top in regards to breeding the right colour?

I dont. I let the world pick and I adapt to the global environment. It won't matter what she looks like because science allows you to decide what the baby looks like by activating or de-activating genes. You keep thinking in the old fashioned way, where how your baby looked was like rolling a dice, but this has changed. Now you have complete control no matter what you and your partner look like, which means anyone can have a blonde baby now, because it's just a matter of activating or deactivating a few genes. I guess you don't see the point.



What makes you think that billions will die unless we decide on one particular colour to breed and aspire too? Billions will die to other causes such as illness, old age, starvation, wars, etc. You can't get rid of death. Death is the natural course of life. Breeding the 'uber' race wont save them from death. Death, like taxes, is inevitable.

I think dying over appearance is stupid. There are better things to die for. I think people want to defend their appearance out of pride. I don't think it's rational. It's rational to care about the species, in all it's appearances, and so I'd prefer if we preserve gene diversity, thats why I'm against sterilization, but I'm not against gene selection because sterilization decreases gene diversity while gene selection actually increases it.


Don't you get it? We are all one colour, just different and diverse shades. Diversity is what makes us all unique. All being the same would not make us unique. It would make us all exactly the same

I'm for diversity of genes, not diversity of appearance. That's the difference. I'm for gene diversity. I'm against sterilization because it limits gene diversity, which ultimately harms the species and slows evolution down. So I don't care if everyone looked like exactly the same man and woman, as long as they all had diverse genes.

Bells, look at this site in specific
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

Transhumanism (sometimes abbreviated >H or H+) is an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of new sciences and technologies to enhance human cognitive and physical abilities and ameliorate what it regards as undesirable and unnecessary aspects of the human condition, such as disease, aging, and death. Transhumanist thinkers study the possibilities and consequences of developing and using human enhancement techniques and other emerging technologies for these purposes. Possible dangers, as well as benefits, of powerful new technologies that might radically change the conditions of human life are also of concern to the transhumanist movement.[2]

Although the first known use of the term "transhumanism" dates from 1957, the contemporary meaning is a product of the 1980s, when a group of scientists, artists, and futurists based in the United States began to organize what has since grown into the transhumanist movement. Transhumanist thinkers postulate that human beings will eventually be transformed into beings with such greatly expanded abilities as to merit the label "posthuman".[2]

The transhumanist vision of a profoundly transformed future humanity has attracted many supporters as well as critics from a wide range of perspectives. Transhumanism has been described by a proponent as the "movement that epitomizes the most daring, courageous, imaginative, and idealistic aspirations of humanity,"[3] while according to a prominent critic, it is the world's most dangerous idea.[4]

So you see, it's trans-humanism, not eugenics that I support. Transhumanism has nothing to do with steralization, or violence. Learn more about it.

You feel the need to ask? As a person of colour and a parent, you're damn straight I am against aborting a child because it might be black. I am not a racist hell bent on creating an 'uber' white race to rule the world. I do not judge others or consider an individual to be somehow worthless or somehow less human because they are not white.

Here's a hypothetical question for you. Suppose that abortion were outlawed in the US but, as a form of affirmative action, it was still legal for blacks. Would you consider consider black women to be lucky to be the only ones to enjoy the right to choose? Or would you see it as a covert form of genocide?

here are some sites to check out

http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/specials/9908/china.social.overview/content/infanticide.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

Originally Posted by valich
I wouldn't go so far as to call it "RAMPANT" unless you include legal abortions as infanticide too? To kill a living fetus is still classified as murder under Chinese law, and punishable accordingly. Most all of the masses dare not go this far, especially living under surveillance of others in such a high population. Still, almost - if not all? - adoptions from China are girls.

The total population is now about 1.3 billion with 515 million urban, growing by 3 million annualy. 111 million is 11.7%.

I think the websites that you provided support what I say. The first one states that: "Instances of infanticide ... are usually singular events; they do not happen en masse."

The second one only suggests that there is "rising levels of female infanticide" without reference to any sources.

The Wiki article states that: "Infanticide was common in most well written ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece, Rome, India, China, and Japan....There have been some accusations that infanticide occurs in the People's Republic of China due to the one-child policy although most demographers do not believe that the practice is widespread. In the 1990s, a certain stretch of the Yangtze River was known to be a common site of infanticide by drowning, until government projects made access to it more difficult. Others assert that China has twenty-five million fewer girl children than expected, but sex selective abortion can partially be to blame."

Why so racist?

Chinese women are as beautiful as all the others. Unless you just don't like women, but thats your problem.

no, I like women, Im attracted to women...but chinese women dont just not attract me...they are like a repelling magnet force...like creatures from Salvador Dali's paintings. :D

I came across this info. while making a presentation for a class. Unbelievable:
There are 111 million men in China (roughly 3x the population of Canada) who will never marry. Why? Because there aren't enough Chinese women!!! Why? Because they kill female infants like they're mosquitos!! I'm sorry I said that so lightly but its true. Female infanticide is RAMPANT in China (and India, Pakistan, some African countries..if you think about it) & even though their sons will never marry, they still don't end it!! I thought the whole concept of having sons vs. daughters was so they could carry on the family name.. but if the guy has no woman to marry.. ummm
As a consequence, of this deficit of women, a huge slave trade has emerged where Vietnamese women are kidnapped & transported to China to serve as wives. Or, incestuous villages have emerged where almost every wedding is between a brother & sister or cousin & 1st cousin. :eek: :eek:

I would recommend living in Shenzhen, China. It's 4 chicks to every dude there.

Here's a hypothetical question for you. Suppose that abortion were outlawed in the US but, as a form of affirmative action, it was still legal for blacks. Would you consider consider black women to be lucky to be the only ones to enjoy the right to choose? Or would you see it as a covert form of genocide?
That's a really good question. And I'd say it could be both depending on how you look at it. The blacks can choose to not have the abortion so the genocide issue can become a moot point. If it were forced abortions of blacks then yes that could be construed as being genocide.

The whites would claim they were being racially and medically discriminated against, which they would be.

Time Traveller

I really do not believe in the notion of a perfect species or the creation of one through selective breeding or eugenics. You can call it what you will, but it is still racism in one of its worst forms. You can try to paint it as being ideal as it would get rid of racism, but it would not as designating a certain colour to be ideal or perfect is in itself, racism in its purest form.

I was born in a society where the lighter shades were the most revered and people used to strive to marry someone white to attempt to have white children. Racism was rife where anyone not of the 'right' colour could be asked to leave a store, not sit in certain benchs in churches, not be served until after the prefered colour was served in a shop, etc. My parents migrated to escape from such blatant racism, even though it did not affect them as much as it did others because they were supposedly lighter, and I was lighter still, but as far as they were concerned, they wished for me to grow up outside of such an environment and belief system. I can tell you now, I went back once on holidays (after 10 years) and have sworn to never return as have my parents, even though they have family and sibblings who remain there. It is an ugly ideology when it is practiced and it is hateful. You might think it's all hunky dory in the long run, but in its very process, it is vile and can display racist ideology that you claim you do not believe in.

I would recommend living in Shenzhen, China. It's 4 chicks to every dude there.
That's probably because they are all trying to get into Hong Kong where they have greater opportunities than men. There are also more "sweat shops" in Shenzhen that have been continually popping up since it became the major border post there, and they only hire women to work as slaves. Hong Kong also seems to have more women than men, but I don't have any statistics.

Bells, look at this site in specific
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism
So you see, it's trans-humanism, not eugenics that I support. Transhumanism has nothing to do with steralization, or violence. Learn more about it.

This is very interesting but probably belongs on a new thread. According to what you posted there seems to be two definitions of "tranhumanism": developing human enhancement, or "transforming beings with such greatly expanded abilities to be "posthuman.""

That's a really good question. And I'd say it could be both depending on how you look at it. The blacks can choose to not have the abortion so the genocide issue can become a moot point. If it were forced abortions of blacks then yes that could be construed as being genocide.

OK, what if David Duke decided to pay for abortions by blacks. No force involved. Any black wants an abortion, David Duke is happy to write a check. Would you laud him for providing free health care?

That's a really good question. And I'd say it could be both depending on how you look at it. The blacks can choose to not have the abortion so the genocide issue can become a moot point. If it were forced abortions of blacks then yes that could be construed as being genocide.


Why must there be "the blacks" and "the whites" when we can all look the same?


The whites would claim they were being racially and medically discriminated against, which they would be.

What do you mean? That makes no sense. Genetic discrimination is already happening, you are just too ignorant to notice it.


I really do not believe in the notion of a perfect species or the creation of one through selective breeding or eugenics. You can call it what you will, but it is still racism in one of its worst forms. You can try to paint it as being ideal as it would get rid of racism,

Genetic discriination is real. Race is not. So you see, I don't care what people look like as long as the gene pool benefits, under genetic enhanced breeding it might, under racism obviously it's not, look at our current state and see how we are doing for yourself.


but it would not as designating a certain colour to be ideal or perfect is in itself, racism in its purest form.


Genetics are real. It has nothing to do with one skin gene either, Stupid people are a different race from smart people. But with genetic enhancements, anyone who can afford it can change their race from stupid to smart.



I was born in a society where the lighter shades were the most revered and people used to strive to marry someone white to attempt to have white children. Racism was rife where anyone not of the 'right' colour could be asked to leave a store, not sit in certain benchs in churches, not be served until after the prefered colour was served in a shop, etc. My parents migrated to escape from such blatant racism, even though it did not affect them as much as it did others because they were supposedly lighter, and I was lighter still, but as far as they were concerned, they wished for me to grow up outside of such an environment and belief system. I can tell you now, I went back once on holidays (after 10 years) and have sworn to never return as have my parents, even though they have family and sibblings who remain there. It is an ugly ideology when it is practiced and it is hateful. You might think it's all hunky dory in the long run, but in its very process, it is vile and can display racist ideology that you claim you do not believe in

You still don't get it. I don't care how you look, how the kids in the future look, I don't give a damn about it. All I want is for the human species to survive. Intelligence is more important than how our species looks, and we are currently too stupid to survive, and you advocate we stay stupid just to keep traditional appearances? Well I disagree with you. I say let the appearances go and save the species.

You seem to think we will definately have the option of both, but we might get one or the other, so pick. Do you support trans-humanism if it saves the human race, or do you support your appearance at the cost of the human race? I'm on the side of the human race, period.

OK, what if David Duke decided to pay for abortions by blacks. No force involved. Any black wants an abortion, David Duke is happy to write a check. Would you laud him for providing free health care?
Hmmmm.. I wasn't aware there were so many black women in China...


Regarding your question, the issue of force comes into question. At present anyone can pay for someone else to have an abortion. It's when someone is forced into having one, then we are stepping into something different altogether. They aren't given the choice as to whether to have . At present, it is by choice and if "David Duke" wishes to pay for them, it's his money and his choice to, as it is the choice of others to take him up on the offer or not.

If a woman, be she black or any other colour known in the human spectrum, chooses to have an abortion and someone wishes to pay for it, it's her choice whether to accept the offer or not.

I'd like to ask though, why are you so obsessed with this issue? The thread is about women and China's one child policy. Not about black women and abortions, be they free or otherwise.

Why must there be "the blacks" and "the whites" when we can all look the same?

Why would I want to look the same as everyone else?

What do you mean? That makes no sense. Genetic discrimination is already happening, you are just too ignorant to notice it.
Yes and I've already stated I disagree with genetic discrimination. If you are caught up on the issue, good for you. Have your future offspring genetically chosen to represent what you want the human species to be. I personally find it to be kind of disgusting.

Genetic discriination is real. Race is not. So you see, I don't care what people look like as long as the gene pool benefits, under genetic enhanced breeding it might, under racism obviously it's not, look at our current state and see how we are doing for yourself.
I can look at my own state and I can say with certainty that I'm doing fine (with the exception of pregnancy complications) but otherwise I'm fine. As is my child, hopefully my incoming child and my husband. What's your point? Do you honestly think all will be all nice and pretty in a sci-fi kind of way if we were all genetically bred to look the same? The gene pool benefits from diversity. If you wish to have your future offspring genetically enhanced, then by all means, try and find someone who will do it for as you it is illegal to genetically enhance a child, and I don't think it can really be done. Sure the technology might exist, but I doubt anyone would be willing to do it to please some peons who want children who are a certain colour and look a certain way because they think it is somehow superior or pleasing.

Genetics are real. It has nothing to do with one skin gene either, Stupid people are a different race from smart people. But with genetic enhancements, anyone who can afford it can change their race from stupid to smart.
You want everyone to be the same so there is no racism, but then you add the issue of it only being available to those who can afford it. So then the poorer in society would be discriminated against not only financially but also genetically because they could not afford to have their children genetically enhanced. And the majority of rich people are those who are white. Hmmmmm not racist you say? You might claim you aren't a racist, but all I'm seeing at present is a racist who is also an elitist snob.

You still don't get it. I don't care how you look, how the kids in the future look, I don't give a damn about it. All I want is for the human species to survive. Intelligence is more important than how our species looks, and we are currently too stupid to survive, and you advocate we stay stupid just to keep traditional appearances? Well I disagree with you. I say let the appearances go and save the species.
What makes you think the human species will survive with genetic engineering to breed the 'better' humans?

You think we are too stupid to survive as we are, but you'd trust us to genetically engineer the future generation to ensure humanity's survival? Heh!.. The irony is hilarious actually. Thanks for that laugh.

You seem to think we will definately have the option of both, but we might get one or the other, so pick. Do you support trans-humanism if it saves the human race, or do you support your appearance at the cost of the human race? I'm on the side of the human race, period.
You're on the side of the human race? The same human race you deem too stupid to survive? And it's those humans you want to genetically alter and engineer the future generation to ensure it's survival? HAHA!!

You have provided no proof that "trans-humanism" can or will save humanity. And what humanity exactly do you wish to save? Only those who can afford it? Nice. Again, how elitist of you.

no, I like women, Im attracted to women...but chinese women dont just not attract me...they are like a repelling magnet force...like creatures from Salvador Dali's paintings. :D

You do realize that Chinese women can love you right?

Are you sure they are not attractive?

I came across this info. while making a presentation for a class. Unbelievable:
There are 111 million men in China (roughly 3x the population of Canada) who will never marry. Why? Because there aren't enough Chinese women!!! Why? Because they kill female infants like they're mosquitos!! I'm sorry I said that so lightly but its true. Female infanticide is RAMPANT in China (and India, Pakistan, some African countries..if you think about it) & even though their sons will never marry, they still don't end it!! I thought the whole concept of having sons vs. daughters was so they could carry on the family name.. but if the guy has no woman to marry.. ummm
As a consequence, of this deficit of women, a huge slave trade has emerged where Vietnamese women are kidnapped & transported to China to serve as wives. Or, incestuous villages have emerged where almost every wedding is between a brother & sister or cousin & 1st cousin. :eek: :eek:

no wander they all look the same maybe there just into guy on guy fun in those countries women at most times seem useless but they dont deserve to die any more than men do if youll dont want your women send them to my country well take very good care of them

Eh? Where I live there are many white and coloured women married to Asian men. What's supposed to be wrong with Asian men anyway?:confused: Are you going by the silly stereotype that exists amongst small minded people? It's obvious that these women thankfully don't judge the book by its cover and aren't racially biased as some others appear to be.



:eek:

yeah you tell them those bitches judge the book by the dollar sign$$$ not the 11 inch COCK.

you gotta love those asian females

gangus kong i thank god for beautiful sweet loving smart asian females call me 416 834 1832

So this just means women will be more valued in China? I thought women wanted to be valued?

Actually, Indian (Hindu) men have small dicks. Well thats what all the Hindu girls tell me. An am not even making this up.

The kidnapping of women for marriage by criminal gangs and middlemen has become a growth industry in China.

The kidnapping of women for marriage by criminal gangs and middlemen has become a growth industry in China.

Chinese chicks can't take a dick. They moan too much and like make you pull out every two minutes, because it "hurts" them.

I'd like to ask though, why are you so obsessed with this issue? The thread is about women and China's one child policy. Not about black women and abortions, be they free or otherwise.
The thread is about a shortage of women in China which is an indirect result its one child policy. Since the Chinese value males more than females, limit them to one child and they'll choose a male, even if they must kill a couple female babies to get the male.

I know you are a supporter of abortion on demand, and was surprised by your vehement objections to women aborting female fetuses. So I was trying to explore the limitations of this idea in your mind.

Muslim, You're a pervert. I've noticed a sharp increase in the explicit and implied sexual connotations of all the threads on Sciforum every since you joined. Sciforum is an acronym for "Scientific Forum." Your posts are perverted, nonsensical and disgusting.

[QUOTE=Bells;1227639]Why would I want to look the same as everyone else?

Why wear a uniform or a suit and tie to work? Because the corporation says so, it's culture.

Yes and I've already stated I disagree with genetic discrimination. If you are caught up on the issue, good for you. Have your future offspring genetically chosen to represent what you want the human species to be. I personally find it to be kind of disgusting.

The human species should constantly better itself or it will go extinct.

I can look at my own state and I can say with certainty that I'm doing fine (with the exception of pregnancy complications) but otherwise I'm fine. As is my child, hopefully my incoming child and my husband. What's your point? Do you honestly think all will be all nice and pretty in a sci-fi kind of way if we were all genetically bred to look the same? The gene pool benefits from diversity.

Don't you see that if there is a race war there will be far less genetic diversity than if we genetically enhance ourselves?

If you wish to have your future offspring genetically enhanced, then by all means, try and find someone who will do it for as you it is illegal to genetically enhance a child, and I don't think it can really be done.

It's not illegal, stem cell research is legal, human cloning is illegal, and only in this country. This technology already exists, havent you heard about the whole cloning and stem cell debate or are you completely ignorant of the news? Not only can it be done, it should be done, because it's best for humanity. I know you'd rather see our species die off fighting over cosmetics and other bullshit, but if you could control cosmetics through gene selection it removes the basis for all of our cosmetic fighting. People today fight over stupid shit, like being overweight, or having skin too dark, or other stupid reasons to fight. The cosmetic reasons to fight won't exist in the future.

Sure the technology might exist, but I doubt anyone would be willing to do it to please some peons who want children who are a certain colour and look a certain way because they think it is somehow superior or pleasing.

Racism will make people do it. What if the world of the future is even more racist, more sexist, more prejudiced than this one? What if in the future, in order to be human you have to look like Paris Hilton? What if she becomes the standard for beauty? In this case, you'll get to choose between having a child which will be excluded from the world, or having a child which will be accepted by the world. If you want your child to do good in school of course you'll switch on the gene for a photographic memory. If your child has downsyndrome of course you'll reverse that before the baby is born. What parent in their right mind would want to have a baby that has no chance for survival in the world?

Life is only going to get worse in the future because it's going to become more competitive. In the future, every child will be expected to be perfect, perfect physically, mentally, etc. Every family with money will give their child a 150+ IQ, why would they not?

Every family with money will give their child the photographic memory they need to get their PHD.

The people who cannot afford to buy the intelligence genes, could design the appearance of their child so their child looks physically beautiful, and then the child can be a model or an actress or actor.

They call this technology, designer babies. It's part of the future which will also include pills which boost brain function and memory. Let's face it, the world will be so competitive that everyone will have to be a beautiful genius to avoid discrimination.

Look at the current world, it's hard isnt it? Now imagine how hard it will be in 40-50 years when theres even less resources and more people.

http://www.bionetonline.org/English/Content/db_cont1.htm

You want everyone to be the same so there is no racism, but then you add the issue of it only being available to those who can afford it. So then the poorer in society would be discriminated against not only financially but also genetically because they could not afford to have their children genetically enhanced.
I realize someone has to be discriminated against no matter what because it's in human nature to be that way. It's better to discriminate against the most stupid, intellectually lazy, uneducated underclass, than to discriminate across the board through all the classes.

So we are in a situation where discrimination is not going to end in our lifetimes, our only option is to choose the form of it. Class is going to become race. I think you see it happening just like I do.

People can move up in class if they work really hard and are a genius. There will be intelligent people from the lowest class who will be able to compete with the genetically enhanced babies.

And the majority of rich people are those who are white. Hmmmmm not racist you say?

Now you are being stupid. There are white intellectuals, black intellectuals, asian intellectuals, there are rich intellectuals. Stop worrying about the precise percentage of white to black to asian intellectuals, and focus on the human species itself.

Who cares what race they are as long as they exist? Why care about the percentages as long as they exist? Would you rather everyone be poor and be completely doomed?

You might claim you aren't a racist, but all I'm seeing at present is a racist who is also an elitist snob.

I'm not a racist at all, I don't believe in race, you do, so you are racist. I'll admit to being a bit snobby, and elitist, but I don't see any alternative. Intellectual elitism, is healthy in my opinion. Why do we want to encourage being stupid? Racism on the other hand punishes both the intelligent and the stupid evenly, there is nothing good that comes from it.

What makes you think the human species will survive with genetic engineering to breed the 'better' humans?

A more intelligent species has a better chance of survival than a dumb species.

You think we are too stupid to survive as we are, but you'd trust us to genetically engineer the future generation to ensure humanity's survival? Heh!..

It's our only hope really. Do you want to accept that your children have no future?

The irony is hilarious actually. Thanks for that laugh.

Genetic engineering is the best shot humanity has for survival. I don't think humans are intellectually capable of surviving at the current state. We have to be a LOT smarter, a LOT more intelligent.

By being a lot more intelligent, we can go into space, and live on other planets, and actually have a chance at survival. We are not going to survive if we are too stupid to figure out how to control our own tools.

You're on the side of the human race? The same human race you deem too stupid to survive? And it's those humans you want to genetically alter and engineer the future generation to ensure it's survival? HAHA!!

If intelligence is a gene, why shouldn't people have the right to activate it? You don't see the benefit and net improvement humans can gain by being smarter?

You have provided no proof that "trans-humanism" can or will save humanity. And what humanity exactly do you wish to save? Only those who can afford it? Nice. Again, how elitist of you.

You want proof? UNIVERSITY was invented to make intelligent men, more knowledgeable. Books were invented, to store the knowledge of previous generations to aid future generations, these boks were stored in LIBRARIES. If every human had a photographic memory, and could read, imagine the impact this would have on the amount of books in that library, the amount of inventions, the speed of scientific progress, the speed we'd be able to colonize mars, and use our genetic technologies to grow an atmosphere, food, and all of this.

Let's just face it, we are going to die on earth unless we save ouselves. Until you recognize that fact, you won't understand what I'm talking about. You might be against trans-humanism, thats just fine, but you should recognize the fact that you don't have the option to sit, wait, and hope your way into a better future. You are doomed, your future is DEAD, it does not exist, until you save it. You cannot save it if you cannot improve yourself.

You cannot save the future if your mind is trapped in the past.So we have stem cell research, we have computer technology, we also face new problems.

Robots, soon robots will be smarter than biological man. At this point biological man will either learn to upgrade themselves, or be replaced by robots, which will it be?

Secondly, theres too many people and not enough resources. The problems we face currently are the sorts of problems that will wipe us out in another generaton. We do not have time to wait for thousands of years, we might only have 50-100 years left period. So what shall we do?

If we develop pills to make us all geniuses, thats great. If we develop genetic enhancements, thats all great. The only thing that matters in the end is survival of our species, thats us. We are the species, not the race, if you care more about the race than the species, you and I are very different.

Race is just a bunch of genes which can be activated or deactivated. If humans want to select a race, they can control which genes are activated.

There is no need for any sorta violence or fighting, you simply select what eye color, hair color, skin color, height, weight, your baby will have, then you flick a switch and its activated. These genes already exist in your genetic code, you know this. It's basically a matter of taking control of the mechanisms which decide how your baby will look. Usually this is left up to the roll of the dice, an almost random arrangement, but now you can arrange it anyway you want. Basically a baby has all the genes from your family history and your partners family history, and because of this, there are recessive traits that go back for thousands of years, simply activate one of those recessive traits, and it will change the appearance. It's really simple scientifically, as it can already be done right now. It's likely expensive because it's new, but it's already being done to cure children of family diseases.

In fact it's so simple, that a virus could infect the human population and deactivate the gene for dark skin, or introduce new genes. Learn alittle about biological and viruses, also learn about genetics.

Chinese chicks can't take a dick. They moan too much and like make you pull out every two minutes, because it "hurts" them.
I will try to be kind.

You are pathetic specimen for a human being...

I know you are a supporter of abortion on demand, and was surprised by your vehement objections to women aborting female fetuses. So I was trying to explore the limitations of this idea in your mind.
I am a supporter of a woman's right to choose. I am not a supporter when abortions are the result cultural pressures on the woman to abort or kill the sex her society deems inferior.

Complex issue for me.

--------------------------------------------------------

Time Traveler.. normal text isn't cutting it for you?:bugeye:

The human species should constantly better itself or it will go extinct.
I'd imagine that bettering itself would involve both mental and physical aspects of life. I don't see how creating or breeding a 'superior' form of human beings will achieve that. I don't see how discriminating against the poor or those who 'cannot afford it', and those of a certain colour or genetic disposition will allow the human species to become better as a species. What it will do is breed dishonesty, hatred and mistrust. Much more than what we are seeing in society today.

Don't you see that if there is a race war there will be far less genetic diversity than if we genetically enhance ourselves?
And you think making everyone the same colour will ensure no race wars occur? Heh! You will only ensure that a race war does occur, and then you will have to face the war between the rich and the poor if we are to follow your plan or dreams for the future.

It's not illegal, stem cell research is legal, human cloning is illegal, and only in this country. This technology already exists, havent you heard about the whole cloning and stem cell debate or are you completely ignorant of the news? Not only can it be done, it should be done, because it's best for humanity. I know you'd rather see our species die off fighting over cosmetics and other bullshit, but if you could control cosmetics through gene selection it removes the basis for all of our cosmetic fighting. People today fight over stupid shit, like being overweight, or having skin too dark, or other stupid reasons to fight. The cosmetic reasons to fight won't exist in the future.
The debate over genetic cloning exists for a reason. So now you've gone from tweaking the genes to genetic cloning to breed the 'uber' race to ensure humanity's survival? I guess that blows the whole notion of genetic diversity out the window.. huh?

You want humanity as it stands to die off because of cosmetic reasons. You want to genetically engineer human beings so they are all one pleasing and desired colour because you think that colour is the one that is deemed superior. You wish to ensure the divide between the colours and those who can and can't afford the technology. You want to get rid of the problems of racism by getting rid of what you deem to be the undesired races altogether through genetic engineering and further increase the divide and the problems between the have's and the have nots. Don't try and hide behind the argument that you wish to save humanity. You don't give a crap about humanity.

Racism will make people do it.
I am sure you will try.

What if the world of the future is even more racist, more sexist, more prejudiced than this one?
What if it's not?

And sexist? So you think in your world of genetic selection and breeding, you will somehow breed out sexism or sexuality altogether?

What if in the future, in order to be human you have to look like Paris Hilton?
Ah so now you claim you can only be "human" in the future if you look a certain way? And those who somehow "can't afford it"? What of them? Will they be classified as being somehow less "human"?

Paris Hilton? So you think in the future people will want to look tall, blonde, faked tanned, stoned, not really that attractive and be dumb as a brick? And you claim you want to save humanity? Riiigghhttt..

What if she becomes the standard for beauty?
Some claim her as being one now. Do you see everyone rushing to look and be like her? Do you see parents trying to get their children to be exactly like her so their children can be classified as being beautiful as well as dumb?

In this case, you'll get to choose between having a child which will be excluded from the world, or having a child which will be accepted by the world.
I will go on record now and say with certainty.. if to ensure my child is accepted in the world, he needs to be like Paris Hilton, I will outrightly refuse.

What about those who can't afford it? Are they somehow rejected by the world because they aren't part of the new human race? Hmm how humane of you. And you claim you wish to have everyone be the same so they are equal and there is no hatred? HEH!

If you want your child to do good in school of course you'll switch on the gene for a photographic memory.
I did very well in school and I can assure you I do not have a photographic memory. So what's your point?

If your child has downsyndrome of course you'll reverse that before the baby is born. What parent in their right mind would want to have a baby that has no chance for survival in the world?
So parents who can't afford your notion of genetic tweaking and end up having a disabled child, their children no longer fit into the human race? Your claims of wanting to save humanity continues to fail TT.

Oh and just so you know, people with down syndrome do survive and do end up leading productive and happy lives. You might see them as imperfect or somehow not fitting into the human species, but you are wrong.

Life is only going to get worse in the future because it's going to become more competitive. In the future, every child will be expected to be perfect, perfect physically, mentally, etc. Every family with money will give their child a 150+ IQ, why would they not?

Every family with money will give their child the photographic memory they need to get their PHD.

The people who cannot afford to buy the intelligence genes, could design the appearance of their child so their child looks physically beautiful, and then the child can be a model or an actress or actor.

They call this technology, designer babies. It's part of the future which will also include pills which boost brain function and memory. Let's face it, the world will be so competitive that everyone will have to be a beautiful genius to avoid discrimination.
You are insane.

Did you forget to take your medication lately?

I realize someone has to be discriminated against no matter what because it's in human nature to be that way. It's better to discriminate against the most stupid, intellectually lazy, uneducated underclass, than to discriminate across the board through all the classes.
So you think it's better and acceptable to discriminate against those who cannot afford what you wish for?

Also, if you are turning on intelligence genes, etc, you are only going to ensure that humanity becomes lazy and works less hard.

So we are in a situation where discrimination is not going to end in our lifetimes, our only option is to choose the form of it. Class is going to become race. I think you see it happening just like I do.
No. All I am seeing right now is a lunatic's rant.

People can move up in class if they work really hard and are a genius. There will be intelligent people from the lowest class who will be able to compete with the genetically enhanced babies.
Refer to the above reference to your sanity.

Now you are being stupid. There are white intellectuals, black intellectuals, asian intellectuals, there are rich intellectuals. Stop worrying about the precise percentage of white to black to asian intellectuals, and focus on the human species itself.

Who cares what race they are as long as they exist? Why care about the percentages as long as they exist? Would you rather everyone be poor and be completely doomed?
Shame if those intellectuals are poor now huh? Because then they will deemed to be not human because they can't pay to look like Paris Hilton.

I'm not a racist at all, I don't believe in race, you do, so you are racist. I'll admit to being a bit snobby, and elitist, but I don't see any alternative. Intellectual elitism, is healthy in my opinion. Why do we want to encourage being stupid? Racism on the other hand punishes both the intelligent and the stupid evenly, there is nothing good that comes from it.

No, you're not racist at all...

And yes I was being sarcastic.

A more intelligent species has a better chance of survival than a dumb species.
In other words, only those with the financial means to breed more intelligent children, through genetic engineering, will have a better chance than those who cannot afford it. But hey, as you claim, we have to discriminate against someone right? After all, if there's no one left to discriminate against, what would we do with our time.. :rolleyes:

It's our only hope really. Do you want to accept that your children have no future?

Oh my children have a full life ahead of them. As well as a future. It is your children's future I am worried about.

Genetic engineering is the best shot humanity has for survival. I don't think humans are intellectually capable of surviving at the current state. We have to be a LOT smarter, a LOT more intelligent.

By being a lot more intelligent, we can go into space, and live on other planets, and actually have a chance at survival. We are not going to survive if we are too stupid to figure out how to control our own tools.
But you'd consider us smart enough to genetically engineer the perfect human being? HAHAHAAA!!

As to the rest of your thread.. Heh..

[QUOTE=Bells;1229147]I will try to be kind.

Time Traveler.. normal text isn't cutting it for you?:bugeye:


I'd imagine that bettering itself would involve both mental and physical aspects of life. I don't see how creating or breeding a 'superior' form of human beings will achieve that.

I'm an intellectual, I think bettering ourselves is mental, because thats where we are weakest. There's no shortage of physically attractive people.

I don't see how discriminating against the poor or those who 'cannot afford it', and those of a certain colour or genetic disposition will allow the human species to become better as a species. What it will do is breed dishonesty, hatred and mistrust. Much more than what we are seeing in society today.

I don't think dishonesty is bred, it's taught. Hatred is bred but we don't know enough about emotions or the causes. Mistrust exists because theres too many people to trust. You can't trust complete strangers.


And you think making everyone the same colour will ensure no race wars occur? Heh! You will only ensure that a race war does occur, and then you will have to face the war between the rich and the poor if we are to follow your plan or dreams for the future.

Class war and race war are not the same thing. In a class war, someone still wins even when a lot of people lose. In a race war no one wins, everyone loses. I'm not saying either of these wars are good, I'm just saying wars are going to occur regardless of what naive people such as yourself think. Maybe you are anti-war, but the majority of the world isnt.


The debate over genetic cloning exists for a reason. So now you've gone from tweaking the genes to genetic cloning to breed the 'uber' race to ensure humanity's survival? I guess that blows the whole notion of genetic diversity out the window.. huh?

I never said uber-race, or race at all. Stop trying to compare me to the Germans and to Nazism. I don't care what humanity ends up looking like, but obviously you do, so you are racist. I'm for genetic diversity, but either we are reproducing too fast and recklessly, or what? You think we can keep doing this another hundred years? Get real. There has to be a conclusion to this that we can all accept. Why don't you search for a conclusion instead of complaining about technology and genetic research. If you don't like genetics, then what do you favor?

You want humanity as it stands to die off because of cosmetic reasons. You want to genetically engineer human beings so they are all one pleasing and desired colour because you think that colour is the one that is deemed superior.

What the hell are you trying to say? I never said I personally think humanity should die off. Humanity thinks humanity should die off. I never said I personally gave a damn which color we picked, I said humanity cannot accept different appearances. You keep trying to make it seem like I invented race, and racism, like I'm Hitler, but no, I was born into this world just like everyone else, and I'm young enough to see it's never going to end because people like you, prefer to sit around and avoid or hide from big problems. You don't like genetics? Ok how would you save humanity from itself?

You wish to ensure the divide between the colours and those who can and can't afford the technology.

I don't control who can afford what, I don't control if we are capitalist or not, I don't control any of that. Stop talking complete utter bullshit about what you think I prefer, and what you think I believe, and what you think I want, when I've never said I wanted any of those things. I accept it's a likely possibility, but I never asked for it. I was born into a world that was on this track, for this possibility, and it was on this track since before I was born. I was born into a world where people had already invented concepts like race and racism. And people like you, who like to complain about it, but do nothing to solve it, are as bad as people who are racist who make the problem worse. If you want to help humanity survive, post some of your solutions that are better than transhumanism.

You want to get rid of the problems of racism by getting rid of what you deem to be the undesired races altogether through genetic engineering and further increase the divide and the problems between the have's and the have nots.

Every race is undesireable, but you don't seem to get it. Everyone being the same color does not cure the problem, it only slows it down. I personally desire every race, but it's not like I get to choose the standard race, society does. I did not choose capitalism, or the language, we are born into these things, it's a path that was set for us by our ancestors long before we existed. I can see where the path is headed, I can see where it's going, and we have a few options to avoid a complete train wreck. Do you want a train wreck?

Don't try and hide behind the argument that you wish to save humanity. You don't give a crap about humanity.

You don't give a crap about humanity if you think humanity can continue doing what it has been doing for another hundred years. What are your solutions? When did I ever say that I personally prefer blonde children? I simply dont' care what our future children look like, I view them all as our children. If society is going to still be racist in 100 years, it's somethnig we have to accept and work around, because some things are too important.

I am sure you will try.


What if it's not?

And sexist? So you think in your world of genetic selection and breeding, you will somehow breed out sexism or sexuality altogether?

I don't know whats going to happen with sexism and sexuality. I don't know how a technology will be used. All I can say is, it's here, and it's going to be used either way, so get rid of your old outdated ideas on what race is. and accept genetics, because thats where the science and technology is. You might not like trans-humanism, but it's better than extinction, and unless you can figure out an idea better than trans-humanism, you are rooting for extinction.

Ah so now you claim you can only be "human" in the future if you look a certain way?

Our human brothers and sisters decided that, not you, not me, the majority.

And those who somehow "can't afford it"? What of them? Will they be classified as being somehow less "human"?

The poor already are considered to be less than human, aliens, etc.

Paris Hilton? So you think in the future people will want to look tall, blonde, faked tanned, stoned, not really that attractive and be dumb as a brick? And you claim you want to save humanity? Riiigghhttt..

Well I certainly hope not, but if thats how people want their kids to look so be it. I don't care how we look in the future. I care how we think and how intelligent we are, I care about our success as a species.


Some claim her as being one now. Do you see everyone rushing to look and be like her? Do you see parents trying to get their children to be exactly like her so their children can be classified as being beautiful as well as dumb?

Paris Hilton is not dumb, that much is obvious, but maybe you think she looks dumb, maybe shes good at putting on that act. You are right, I'd prefer we were more intelligent, I don't really care how we look so the cosmetic stuff does not impress me.

However we live in a world where women get breast implants and nose jobs. Beauty seems to be everything for some people.

I will go on record now and say with certainty.. if to ensure my child is accepted in the world, he needs to be like Paris Hilton, I will outrightly refuse.

He can be like Brad Pitt, ultimately you don't decide what is qualified for acceptance.

What about those who can't afford it? Are they somehow rejected by the world because they aren't part of the new human race?

The world already treats the poor as not being part of the human race. It's not going to change much in 50 years, in fact it will only get worse.

Hmm how humane of you. And you claim you wish to have everyone be the same so they are equal and there is no hatred? HEH!

I never said I wanted everyone to be the same. I said society will not accept physical differences. Society wants everyone in uniform.


I did very well in school and I can assure you I do not have a photographic memory. So what's your point?

But you'd have been better in school if you had a photographic memory. That's my point. People are going to do this even if you don't.

So parents who can't afford your notion of genetic tweaking and end up having a disabled child, their children no longer fit into the human race? Your claims of wanting to save humanity continues to fail TT.

Actually a lot of children now are not considered a part of the human race. If you are born into poverty right now, you are not considered a part of the human race, just look at how kids are suffering in Africa and tell me what you think about how humans treat their children.

Oh and just so you know, people with down syndrome do survive and do end up leading productive and happy lives. You might see them as imperfect or somehow not fitting into the human species, but you are wrong.

It's not about my thoughts. You need to start to understand how the collective human consciousness views itself. Humans view each other in supericial ways, it's not going to change just because you wake up one day and decide not to be racist. People are not going to follow you intellectually. So it's not going to ever end, do you understand? Racism is here to stay, and it will be here in 100 years, because the human brain evolves the slowest.

You are insane.

Did you forget to take your medication lately?

Nice insult.

So you think it's better and acceptable to discriminate against those who cannot afford what you wish for?

The poor are always discriminated against. It's not new, it's been like that since money was invented.

Also, if you are turning on intelligence genes, etc, you are only going to ensure that humanity becomes lazy and works less hard.

If humans are more intelligent, more efficient, etc, why do they need to work hard when they can work smart?

No. All I am seeing right now is a lunatic's rant.

Do you have anything to rant about besides to complain against science?

Refer to the above reference to your sanity.


Shame if those intellectuals are poor now huh? Because then they will deemed to be not human because they can't pay to look like Paris Hilton.

That's already how it is. Welcome to the real world.

No, you're not racist at all...

And yes I was being sarcastic.

I'm not racist, I care about the human race, I don't care about the special interest racial groups, those groups are just groups of people who look similar. People who think similar are more connected than people who look similar.

In other words, only those with the financial means to breed more intelligent children, through genetic engineering, will have a better chance than those who cannot afford it. But hey, as you claim, we have to discriminate against someone right? After all, if there's no one left to discriminate against, what would we do with our time.. :rolleyes:

Those who can afford better private schools can get their child accepted into Ivy League schools. What is your point? It's always been this way. We live in a capitalist society, there are classes, and the classes will never be equal. So, get real.

Oh my children have a full life ahead of them. As well as a future. It is your children's future I am worried about.

Yeah what world do you live in? Liberal world where everyone in the country is suddenly liberal as hell? It's not going to happen. The country is filled with people who will not get rid of the concept of race, these people are often poor. So some of the most racist people in the world are also among the poor.

I don't hate the poor, or the rich, I believe my people are among both and all classes and race groups. This is why I don't pick a side so easily, because it really doesnt matter which side I pick, the problem is the same for all sides.

But you'd consider us smart enough to genetically engineer the perfect human being? HAHAHAAA!!

I never used the word perfect. I said better.

As to the rest of your thread.. Heh..

You are intellectually incapable of understanding trans-humanism. It's not about having perfect babies, it's simply about having better babies to help create a better future. It's not a guarentee. But what are you for? Racism?

Hatred is a human problem, it creates misery for us all, it's not a problem which will be solved simply by ignoring it like people such as yourself. Just making everyone look the same will not end hatred either. So I don't think cosmetic changes will matter much.

However just because you are against genetic enhancement, it does not mean the rest of the world is going to wait while you sit on the fence, it's going to happen no matter what either of us say. So instead, you should be planning on how to benefit from it. Trans-humanism and genetic research is not about race, theres no "race" in the genetic journals, it's about understanding ourselves, something we should have been doing all along instead of destroying ourselves.

But if genetics is too difficult for you to deal with, focus on something small, like pollution, it should be obvious. If you have more chemical pollution, and waste, it harms the genetic spectrum for humans and animals, it speeds up our extinction. So why don't you focus on chemical and biological threats to our extinction if you care about humanity.

Oh wait, you don't care, otherwise you'd know that racism is a non-issue, that real threat at this point is going extinct. We could go extinct by the pollution we put into our food, our water, our products, etc, and people like you, who I'll call the typical ignorant consumer, will buy it up and feed it to their children and never even know what damage is being done.

You currently get your food from a super market, you have no food security, you have no water security, a new case of mad cow disease was discovered recently in the USA, the global water suppy is running out, the global energy supply is finite and will run out. We are fucked unless we collectiely realize that if we don't do something, there will be no future for our children, that includes yours, that includes the children in Africa, and any other child of any race type.

So accept it, and start looking for solutions, otherwise, you don't care. You can call me a racist, an elitist, a snob, or whatever you want, but I do care about our collective fate, more than I care about the racism debate.

I'm an intellectual, I think bettering ourselves is mental, because thats where we are weakest. There's no shortage of physically attractive people.
So you think it is better to switch on a few genes instead of encouraging hard work and improving humanity through education available to all equally? Fine.

You are obsessed with looks. Don't you get it? What you may deem attractive is not what others may deem to be attractive. What is pleasing or desired is individual and not collective. Do you honestly think that we are all attracted to or think the same thing as being desired or desirable?

I don't think dishonesty is bred, it's taught. Hatred is bred but we don't know enough about emotions or the causes. Mistrust exists because theres too many people to trust. You can't trust complete strangers.
And genetic breeding will ensure that dishonesty, hatred and mistrust abounds. People will lie about their genetic origins. People will hate others because they have a particular gene or they could afford to have a particular gene "switched on", etc.

People do it now. You honestly think genetic engineering and eugenics will somehow make this disappear and make everything perfect? Don't be naive.

Class war and race war are not the same thing. In a class war, someone still wins even when a lot of people lose. In a race war no one wins, everyone loses. I'm not saying either of these wars are good, I'm just saying wars are going to occur regardless of what naive people such as yourself think. Maybe you are anti-war, but the majority of the world isnt.
No one wins in any type of war. Wars have repercussions which continue and lasts for generations upon generations. Genetic engineering and eugenics won't get rid of that. It will only ensure that a future war will take place between the have's and the have nots.

I never said uber-race, or race at all. Stop trying to compare me to the Germans and to Nazism. I don't care what humanity ends up looking like, but obviously you do, so you are racist. I'm for genetic diversity, but either we are reproducing too fast and recklessly, or what? You think we can keep doing this another hundred years? Get real. There has to be a conclusion to this that we can all accept. Why don't you search for a conclusion instead of complaining about technology and genetic research. If you don't like genetics, then what do you favor?
On the contrary, you do care what people end up looking like, so long as they don't look like they do now. You do care otherwise you wouldn't keep mentioning cosmetic beauty as being desired (eg Paris Hilton and Brad Pitt).

You claim you aren't a racist but you are quite willing to have many races cease to exist as they do today because you think it would be beneficial for everyone to change themselves to please society's view of what is aesthetically pleasing. And you only wish that for those who can afford it because you think it's 'ok' to discriminate against the poor and you consider poor people (such as people from Africa) to be somehow less human than others.

And you aren't racist?

What the hell are you trying to say? I never said I personally think humanity should die off. Humanity thinks humanity should die off. I never said I personally gave a damn which color we picked, I said humanity cannot accept different appearances. You keep trying to make it seem like I invented race, and racism, like I'm Hitler, but no, I was born into this world just like everyone else, and I'm young enough to see it's never going to end because people like you, prefer to sit around and avoid or hide from big problems. You don't like genetics? Ok how would you save humanity from itself?
Your brand of eugenics will ensure that humanity dies off. As humanity will lose its very identity and individuality. That's what makes us human. Our identity, and our individuality. You wish to rob future generations of this and I think that's quite sad. We are each unique. You wish for all of us to be the same.. or just those who can afford it.. those who can't no longer fall part of the human race as far as you are concerned. And you claim you care for humanity?

I don't control who can afford what, I don't control if we are capitalist or not, I don't control any of that. Stop talking complete utter bullshit about what you think I prefer, and what you think I believe, and what you think I want, when I've never said I wanted any of those things. I accept it's a likely possibility, but I never asked for it. I was born into a world that was on this track, for this possibility, and it was on this track since before I was born. I was born into a world where people had already invented concepts like race and racism. And people like you, who like to complain about it, but do nothing to solve it, are as bad as people who are racist who make the problem worse. If you want to help humanity survive, post some of your solutions that are better than transhumanism.
And instead of working to make it better, you are working to make it worse by ensuring the economic divide widens and continues and that discrimination carries on. You want to ensure that those who somehow cannot afford it are treated less humanely. That is the very true possibility of the future as you wish it.

Your solution to solving it is to lower the human status of the very individuals you claim you aren't racist against.

Every race is undesireable, but you don't seem to get it. Everyone being the same color does not cure the problem, it only slows it down. I personally desire every race, but it's not like I get to choose the standard race, society does. I did not choose capitalism, or the language, we are born into these things, it's a path that was set for us by our ancestors long before we existed. I can see where the path is headed, I can see where it's going, and we have a few options to avoid a complete train wreck. Do you want a train wreck?
Every race is desireable. As for choosing what is desireable. What is desireable to one will not be desireable to others. We are born into our society. But we must then make a conscious thought as to how we treat and view that society as a whole. Your brand of eugenics will ensure that those less financially able will not be part of society or humanity at all.. unless they are pretty then they can become actors and models (do you live in a fantasy land?).

You don't give a crap about humanity if you think humanity can continue doing what it has been doing for another hundred years. What are your solutions? When did I ever say that I personally prefer blonde children? I simply dont' care what our future children look like, I view them all as our children. If society is going to still be racist in 100 years, it's somethnig we have to accept and work around, because some things are too important.
Read all your posts in this thread and you tell me what you think. You seem to waver in all sorts of directions at the moment. One minute you don't care what they look like, the next minute you do care what they look like so long as they please society's desires in cosmetic beauty so they fit in.

Society will always be racist because there are those who think that one is better than the other. Eugenics won't get rid of that. Instead, it will ensure discrimination continues into further generations and society then divides itself into the rich and the human and the poor and the lesser humans. I'm sorry but such a future is does not appeal to me in any way, shape or form.

I don't know whats going to happen with sexism and sexuality. I don't know how a technology will be used. All I can say is, it's here, and it's going to be used either way, so get rid of your old outdated ideas on what race is. and accept genetics, because thats where the science and technology is. You might not like trans-humanism, but it's better than extinction, and unless you can figure out an idea better than trans-humanism, you are rooting for extinction.
You have absolutely no proof that we are approaching extinction due to our current genetic status. Eugenics will in no way ensure humanity's survival. Nor will trans-humanism.

Our human brothers and sisters decided that, not you, not me, the majority.
And you think that is right? Are you a sheep who always does what everyone else does?

The poor already are considered to be less than human, aliens, etc.
By you maybe. But not by me and I'd be willing to bet I am not alone.

Paris Hilton is not dumb, that much is obvious,
It is? What planet have you been living on?

but maybe you think she looks dumb, maybe shes good at putting on that act.
She looks dumb because she is dumb. And sadly, I don't think it's an act.

If it is, she's dumber than I thought.

However we live in a world where women get breast implants and nose jobs. Beauty seems to be everything for some people.
Not for all.

He can be like Brad Pitt, ultimately you don't decide what is qualified for acceptance.
Don't I?

So who exactly does get to decide what is acceptable? Vogue magazine?

The world already treats the poor as not being part of the human race. It's not going to change much in 50 years, in fact it will only get worse.
And that's acceptable to you? You think it's ok to treat the poor like lesser humans because they are poor? You think it is acceptable and desireable to continue to discriminate against poor people instead of trying to help them?

And you claim you care about humanity? Poor people form part of humanity. If you really cared, you'd care that some (such as yourself) might consider them to be less worthy of rights accorded to human beings.

I never said I wanted everyone to be the same. I said society will not accept physical differences. Society wants everyone in uniform.

And you think that is acceptable? Are you a fashion bunnie TT? Do you live by what society deems to be "in" at any present time? Because you see, tastes change and what is physically acceptable or desireable today, may not be the same tomorrow.

Actually a lot of children now are not considered a part of the human race. If you are born into poverty right now, you are not considered a part of the human race, just look at how kids are suffering in Africa and tell me what you think about how humans treat their children.
Again, comments such as this support your claims of caring for humanity.. how exactly?

I don't consider the poor or people in Africa to be less human. People like Prince James might and you think they are right? You think it's right to treat human beings differently because they are poor or from countries like Africa? You think they are somehow less worthy of consideration and rights?

It's not about my thoughts. You need to start to understand how the collective human consciousness views itself. Humans view each other in supericial ways, it's not going to change just because you wake up one day and decide not to be racist. People are not going to follow you intellectually. So it's not going to ever end, do you understand? Racism is here to stay, and it will be here in 100 years, because the human brain evolves the slowest.
If the collective human conscious thinks and believes as you do, then we are doomed and no amount of genetic engineering, genetic tweaking and eugenics can and will save us.

Nice insult.
Thank you.

The poor are always discriminated against. It's not new, it's been like that since money was invented.
So that makes it all alright? Instead of changing that, you think it acceptable to continue and further perpetuate such discrimination?


If humans are more intelligent, more efficient, etc, why do they need to work hard when they can work smart?
We do both now. Why do you think its better to just work smart and not hard?

Do you have anything to rant about besides to complain against science?
I am not ranting against science. I am ranting against your interpretation and reasons for what science should do.

Those who can afford better private schools can get their child accepted into Ivy League schools. What is your point? It's always been this way. We live in a capitalist society, there are classes, and the classes will never be equal. So, get real.
And instead of trying to change that so a good education becomes available to all, you prefer to continue and increase the form and the reason for discrimination.

It's not going to happen. The country is filled with people who will not get rid of the concept of race, these people are often poor. So some of the most racist people in the world are also among the poor.

I don't hate the poor, or the rich, I believe my people are among both and all classes and race groups. This is why I don't pick a side so easily, because it really doesnt matter which side I pick, the problem is the same for all sides.
Go back and read through all your posts in this thread. You don't give a crap about the poor. You dismiss them and their plight with a statement of it having always been that way, so therefore it's fine to ensure it continues and it's fine if society deems them to be somehow less human. Your disdain for those less economically placed is frankly disgraceful for any individual who then dares to claim they only think this way to ensure humanity's survival. You wouldn't know what humanity is if it came and bit you on the arse.

Hatred is a human problem, it creates misery for us all, it's not a problem which will be solved simply by ignoring it like people such as yourself. Just making everyone look the same will not end hatred either. So I don't think cosmetic changes will matter much.

However just because you are against genetic enhancement, it does not mean the rest of the world is going to wait while you sit on the fence, it's going to happen no matter what either of us say. So instead, you should be planning on how to benefit from it. Trans-humanism and genetic research is not about race, theres no "race" in the genetic journals, it's about understanding ourselves, something we should have been doing all along instead of destroying ourselves.
And you wish the hatred and the misery to continue for those who cannot afford genetic enhancement. You claim yourself that they aren't even human, so why should anyone care. You would have to be the most selfish and hypocritical individual I have ever come across.

If understanding ourselves is to claim that poor people are somehow less human, then we have screwed up royally. And you dare claim such a belief is acceptable and you then dare go further and say it is acceptable for it to continue into the future? It is because of people like you and your elitist, racist and frankly pathetic belief systems that we are destroying ourselves. It is because people like you exist that we are doomed as we stand. You don't give a shit if genetics can help the poor or the sick and injured. You just want everyone to look aesthetically pleasing and pretty and be smart.. much like Hitler wanted every German to be and aspire aryan in looks. You want there to be a divide between the rich and the poor. You actually turn my stomach.

Oh wait, you don't care, otherwise you'd know that racism is a non-issue, that real threat at this point is going extinct. We could go extinct by the pollution we put into our food, our water, our products, etc, and people like you, who I'll call the typical ignorant consumer, will buy it up and feed it to their children and never even know what damage is being done.
And genetically enhancing my children will change this how exactly? It was the past's progress that is seeing us in the polluted nightmare we are witnessing today. I wonder what hell tomorrow will be if we are to follow your ideals and morals regarding our genetic future, all in the name of progress and the betterment of humanity, same as it was meant to be in the past. And look where it's gotten us now.

You currently get your food from a super market, you have no food security, you have no water security, a new case of mad cow disease was discovered recently in the USA, the global water suppy is running out, the global energy supply is finite and will run out. We are fucked unless we collectiely realize that if we don't do something, there will be no future for our children, that includes yours, that includes the children in Africa, and any other child of any race type.
What? The children in Africa are suddenly more human to you now? All this after your claims that their poverty made them somehow less human? You hypocritical little wretch. Don't you dare claim you care about humanity or its future after you have dared spout the drivel you have spouted in this thread.

So accept it, and start looking for solutions, otherwise, you don't care. You can call me a racist, an elitist, a snob, or whatever you want, but I do care about our collective fate, more than I care about the racism debate.
Don't you have a Vogue magazine to go and read to see what society has this month deemed to be socially acceptable?

[QUOTE=Bells;1229411]So you think it is better to switch on a few genes instead of encouraging hard work and improving humanity through education available to all equally? Fine.

You are obsessed with looks. Don't you get it?

I don't care about looks, humanity does.It's not about me as an individual, it's about us.


What you may deem attractive is not what others may deem to be attractive

I deem women attractive. But whats that have to do with what society, what humanity, deems attractive?

What is pleasing or desired is individual and not collective.

It's collective, thats what racism is, collectively deeming certain groups ugly and certain groups beautiful. It's collective aestheticism. It's a collective thought manifested.

Do you honestly think that we are all attracted to or think the same thing as being desired or desirable?

I don't believe we all think the same, but majority often overrules. The majority is racist, you know it just as well as I do.

And genetic breeding will ensure that dishonesty, hatred and mistrust abounds. People will lie about their genetic origins.

No one cares about your genetic origins now, and most people don't know their own genetic origins, if you look black you are black, if you look white you are white, it's that superficial and never had anything to do with genetics.

I guess you can't see that people already are racist.

People will hate others because they have a particular gene or they could afford to have a particular gene "switched on", etc.

People who hate, find excuses to express their hate, it has nothing to do with racism, or with race. Race is just a very easy excuse to hate others, it's visible. What they really hate is the different appearances, but race was made up to provide the ideology and excuses to make it seem reasonable.


People do it now. You honestly think genetic engineering and eugenics will somehow make this disappear and make everything perfect? Don't be naive.

I never said I supported Eugenics. Whats your answer? You tell me expert, you really think doing nothing will make everything perfect?

No one wins in any type of war.

You are a typical antiwar liberal. The problem with your viewpoint is, it's unrealistic. War will exist as long as there is conflict and hatred. You can be right about one thing, war does not have to be a violent process. We have non-violent ways to fight and resolve conflicts, we need to develop those. War however will always exist in some form.

Wars have repercussions which continue and lasts for generations upon generations. Genetic engineering and eugenics won't get rid of that. It will only ensure that a future war will take place between the have's and the have nots.

The war between the haves and have nots? Are you a Marxist now? Even if you are right, you and I know theres nothing either of us can do about it. Capitalism by design, causes that war to occur. It's not here yet, and you are an America, you should be happy you arent in Africa suffering.

On the contrary, you do care what people end up looking like, so long as they don't look like they do now. You do care otherwise you wouldn't keep mentioning cosmetic beauty as being desired (eg Paris Hilton and Brad Pitt).

Why can't you understand that humanity decides on it's future collectively? You act like I'm the one who decides. I don't decide. I tell you what humanity has decided. Humanity has collectively decided to be racist. That decision, like dominos, creates a chain reaction of events which lead to another chain reaction of events, which is why we are in the situation we are in now, it's all cause and effect.


You claim you aren't a racist but you are quite willing to have many races cease to exist as they do today because you think it would be beneficial for everyone to change themselves to please society's view of what is aesthetically pleasing. And you only wish that for those who can afford it because you think it's 'ok' to discriminate against the poor and you consider poor people (such as people from Africa) to be somehow less human than others.

Not caring about any of the races except the human race, is the exact definition of a neutral, a non-racist. It's really simple, my family are my friends, my parents, people I actually know, maybe some people I don't know, but it's definately not based on how they look. Whatever humanity decides, is best, is best. This is not a decision that I as an individual can make. I may get a vote, but I don't get to take away anyone elses vote.

Also, it's not that I consider poor people less than human, I'm poor myself, I'm saying many rich people, and even other poor people, view poorer people as less than human. You can try to say that I'm the one, like I as an individual created societies views, but I'm just observing. Society has decided not to care about it's children.

And you aren't racist?

Humanity is racist. This does not mean I'm talking about me as an individual, what about this sentence confuses you? I'm telling you what your species has decided for you and me.

Your brand of eugenics will ensure that humanity dies off. As humanity will lose its very identity and individuality.

Humans hate identity and individuality, thats why racism exists, to destroy individuality. If everyone wanted individuality everyone would embrace multi-culturalism and diversity. Like I said before, the majority of humans are racist, so what you and I think about this does not matter, but you don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that you are outnumbered.

That's what makes us human. Our identity, and our individuality.

Some don't view you as human, but you don't seem to get that. Some view you as a biological machine. Some view you as a resource. Some view you as an object or tool. Humans do not view themselves as human, because humanity hates itself, but you don't seem to be able to see the big picture because your brain is too small. It's not about me, it's not about you, the world does not revolve around us and our petty opinions. It's about what the whole of humanity decides, what do the majority of humans want? The majority of humans are racist, and want to judge by skin color and appearance. You think not? The job interview exists, so people can judge. Beauty contests exist so people can judge.

None of this is a problem, judging is not the problem as every human has a right to their own definition of beauty. The problem is that humans judge character by externality.

You wish to rob future generations of this and I think that's quite sad.

Present generations wish to rob future generations of this, and I agree it's quite sad, but thats how it is.

We are each unique. You wish for all of us to be the same.. or just those who can afford it..

We are too unique, because the majority of humans think so. The majority of humans want to seperate all the different appearances. The majority of humans want limited diversity. Humans of appearance type A, for whatever reason, want to live around humans of appearance type A. I say fine, let them.

As long as non-racists can live with non-racists, why do you care what racist humans are doing?

those who can't no longer fall part of the human race as far as you are concerned. And you claim you care for humanity?

You know the rules of capitalism. We are not socialist. It's just like that. I'm not saying it has to be like that at all, but there does not have to be ghettos and homeless people either, or people starving. Whatever we see now, it's here because we want it to be here, we want ghettos to exist so we maintain them, we want to have people starving so we avoid making changes to improve efficiency, we want suffering in Africa, and diseases like AIDS to exist. Unless you see people fighting something, it's wanted. We are fighting AIDs, but doing a horrible job providing medicine to people in Africa. Why?

You have kids who grow up, both their parents dead from AIDs, because their parents couldnt afford the medicine?!

And instead of working to make it better, you are working to make it worse by ensuring the economic divide widens and continues and that

What do you propose? That we become communist? As long as we keep capitalism, that divide will always exist, because capitalism by design creates haves and have nots.

discrimination carries on. You want to ensure that those who somehow cannot afford it are treated less humanely. That is the very true possibility of the future as you wish it.

As humans wish it. You keep trynig to blame humans decions on one human. Sometimes you have to accept the decisions of billions of people as their choice, and adapt to it. I'm not capable of ignoring consensus.




Your solution to solving it is to lower the human status of the very individuals you claim you aren't racist against.

Your solution is to ignore consensus and live in a fantasy world. You need to seek a therapist.

Every race is desireable. As for choosing what is desireable. What is desireable to one will not be desireable to others

Desire is individually chosen, however collectively the human race does not desire itself. So you still dont get it. Humanity does not wish to exist.

We are born into our society. But we must then make a conscious thought as to how we treat and view that society as a whole. Your brand of eugenics will ensure that those less financially able will not be part of society or humanity at all.. unless they are pretty then they can become actors and models (do you live in a fantasy land?).

Thats how it is right now. If you are born in the wrong place, in poverty, you get treated as less than human, it's already like that. How are you going to change reality?

Read all your posts in this thread and you tell me what you think. You seem to waver in all sorts of directions at the moment. One minute you don't care what they look like, the next minute you do care what they look like so long as they please society's desires in cosmetic beauty so they fit in.

I never said these were my personal opinions, or that I care either way. I said humanity cares about these trivial arguements. It has nothing to do with me really.

Society will always be racist because there are those who think that one is better than the other.

Good, now you get it, now you can understand what I was saying all along and why your silly ideas to ignore human nature is as stupid as saying "Well I don't need money, capitalism is a flawed system, lets burn the money" Yeah go ahead and burn your money, and be stupid. It's a waste of your time and money.

Eugenics won't get rid of that. Instead, it will ensure discrimination continues into further generations and society then divides itself into the rich and the human and the poor and the lesser humans.

Yeah, and whats your problem with capitalism? Capitalism is all about the haves and have nots. You can make it more efficient, but it's going to always divide. Whats wrong with dividing through capitalism? I'm not saying I think it's good, but when you have 6 billion people and it could double to 12 billion people, well, how long do you think it can last?

I'm sorry but such a future is does not appeal to me in any way, shape or form.

Well it's going to be the future because you do nothing to shape or form the future.

You have absolutely no proof that we are approaching extinction due to our current genetic status. Eugenics will in no way ensure humanity's survival. Nor will trans-humanism.


Yeah, okay, now you will ignore global warming, pollution, the rising world violence and misery, the lowering of the quality of life on the index. You will ignore all the wars, all the plagues, all the pesticides, all the diseases, how ignorant are you?

I don't understand your thinking. You are for gun control and against global warming, yet you say you care about humanity that you do absolutely nothing to protect.

And you think that is right? Are you a sheep who always does what everyone else does?

You are the biggest sheep, it's not that I'm a sheep. But who do you think I am? I'm just a college student. If you want to ask that question, why don't you ask your parents why they think like sheep.

By you maybe. But not by me and I'd be willing to bet I am not alone.

Your solution to lifes problems, are to ignore them. You are the same person, who is for gun control, because you don't care how violent or how well armed the criminals are.

It is? What planet have you been living on?


She looks dumb because she is dumb. And sadly, I don't think it's an act.

If it is, she's dumber than I thought.


Not for all.


Don't I?

So who exactly does get to decide what is acceptable? Vogue magazine?

Fashion designers, magazines, hollywood, a lot of people. Maybe if you focused on that then you wouldnt be so ignorant of whats really going on.Women are dying of eating disorders, it's not about race. White women, our human sisters, are dying of eating disorders more than anyone else. For all the talk that you give on racism, have you ever considered how white women are treated by the media? Do you even care?

And that's acceptable to you? You think it's ok to treat the poor like lesser humans because they are poor? You think it is acceptable and desireable to continue to discriminate against poor people instead of trying to help them?

I never said I think any of that.

And you claim you care about humanity? Poor people form part of humanity. If you really cared, you'd care that some (such as yourself) might consider them to be less worthy of rights accorded to human beings.

Yeah so? I care about some of the poor and some of the rich. Whats your point? I'm poor myself, so I know how the poor are viewed, but I also know that some people are poorer than me, and these people are not viewed as human anymore. Do I think this is right? No, actually I don't think it's right, but this is how the world is currently set up. You cannot operate in the world based on how you want to be, you have to operate in the world based on how it is.

And you think that is acceptable? Are you a fashion bunnie TT? Do you live by what society deems to be "in" at any present time? Because you see, tastes change and what is physically acceptable or desireable today, may not be the same tomorrow.

Why arent you in the fashion business? It's not about me, it's simple, most people are fashion bunnies and live and die by what the TV tells them is cool, hot, etc. Proof? Look at all the wannabe gangsters who watch gangster rap. Look at all the women starving themselves to look like a model. Spain had to recently ban stick figure models, it's a start, but what about the rest of the world? You see my point? Women don't have full control of their image, no one controls their image fully. A lot of kids grow up without anyone to look up to besides their television heros. You just don't understand.


Again, comments such as this support your claims of caring for humanity.. how exactly?

You refuse to believe humanity is on the verge of extinction, so either you dont' care, or you are the most naive person I've ever communicated with.

I don't consider the poor or people in Africa to be less human. People like Prince James might and you think they are right? You think it's right to treat human beings differently because they are poor or from countries like Africa?

The poor are universally treated bad in any country, it's not just Africa.

You think they are somehow less worthy of consideration and rights?

Just because you and I may not think like this, it does not change the fact that if the right people think like this, then its just how the world is going to be.

If the collective human conscious thinks and believes as you do, then we are doomed and no amount of genetic engineering, genetic tweaking and eugenics can and will save us.

We were talking about the collective human consciousness all along. The collective consciousness thinks more like Prince James sadly. Prince James is absolutely a representitive of the common man. People who think like me are like 1% of humanity, and people who think like you, are the common naive liberal types.

Thank you.


So that makes it all alright? Instead of changing that, you think it acceptable to continue and further perpetuate such discrimination?

Discrimination is unending, it simply changes forms over time. Thinking you can end discrimination is as stupid as thinking you can end gun violence by having tougher gun laws. No you won't end gun violence just because you add more laws, and you won't end discrimination just because you outlaw it.

We do both now. Why do you think its better to just work smart and not hard?

You work smart because it's efficient, working hard is inefficient use of energy. You end up using more energy to accomplish the same thing when you could use that energy on something else.


I am not ranting against science. I am ranting against your interpretation and reasons for what science should do.

Oh so you think science should be used to make more weapons so we can kill each other?

And instead of trying to change that so a good education becomes available to all, you prefer to continue and increase the form and the reason for discrimination.

Education cannot end discrimination. People who hate have brains that work differently from yours. I can already see you don't hate. But don't assume everyone has your naive mind. Some people hate and know what they are doing, and don't care if we go extinct.

Go back and read through all your posts in this thread. You don't give a crap about the poor. You dismiss them and their plight with a statement of it having always been that way, so therefore it's fine to ensure it continues and it's fine if society deems them to be somehow less human. Your disdain for those less economically placed is frankly disgraceful for any individual who then dares to claim they only think this way to ensure humanity's survival. You wouldn't know what humanity is if it came and bit you on the arse.

I'm not rich. I don't dismiss. It's not about me, it's humans who decide. I realize my opinions don't matter. do you?

And you wish the hatred and the misery to continue for those who cannot afford genetic enhancement. You claim yourself that they aren't even human, so why should anyone care. You would have to be the most selfish and hypocritical individual I have ever come across.

Like I said, you don't know any of my opinions. So you are complaining about the collective decisions of your race.(the human race)

If understanding ourselves is to claim that poor people are somehow less human, then we have screwed up royally. And you dare claim such a belief is acceptable and you then dare go further and say it is acceptable for it to continue into the future?

It's not my decision to decide what is acceptable and unacceptable. It's humanities. And humans think it's acceptable so it is.

It is because of people like you and your elitist, racist and frankly pathetic belief systems that we are destroying ourselves. It is because people like you exist that we are doomed as we stand.

You don't get anything I say. It's above your level.

You don't give a shit if genetics can help the poor or the sick and injured. You just want everyone to look aesthetically pleasing and pretty and be smart.. much like Hitler wanted every German to be and aspire aryan in looks. You want there to be a divide between the rich and the poor. You actually turn my stomach.

Here you go bringing Hitler into it again. You just use the name Hitler to make an arguement even when Hitler has nothing to do with me, or transhumanism, or genetics.

And genetically enhancing my children will change this how exactly? It was the past's progress that is seeing us in the polluted nightmare we are witnessing today. I wonder what hell tomorrow will be if we are to follow your ideals and morals regarding our genetic future, all in the name of progress and the betterment of humanity, same as it was meant to be in the past. And look where it's gotten us now.

So what are you going to do? Leave society and live in a cave next to Bin Laden?

What? The children in Africa are suddenly more human to you now? All this after your claims that their poverty made them somehow less human? You hypocritical little wretch. Don't you dare claim you care about humanity or its future after you have dared spout the drivel you have spouted in this thread.

Yes of course they are human to me, but to the majority of humans they arent.


Don't you have a Vogue magazine to go and read to see what society has this month deemed to be socially acceptable?

You need to read more.

Muslim, You're a pervert. I've noticed a sharp increase in the explicit and implied sexual connotations of all the threads on Sciforum every since you joined. Sciforum is an acronym for "Scientific Forum." Your posts are perverted, nonsensical and disgusting.

Sex is natrual. Deal with it.

Being a pervert, as YOU ARE!, is very "unnatural." Deal with it. You need help. I strongly urge you to seek psychological counselling before your dick guides your uncontrollable instincts into raping young girls, just to satisfy your little organ.

You're a pervert!

because alll the girls are up 4 adoption

peace,