Lets have a look at the Biblical story of Noah and the flood and what this involved. God commanded him to do it, so we can assume God did not intervene. Also, since the Bible says Noah was a man, we can say he had no magical powers to help him. Ok, let's see what he was up against:

Insects: 1,000,000
Mammals: 4,008
Birds: 8,600
Reptiles: 6,252
Amphibians: 2,000
(The above are very conservative calculations)
TOTAL SPECIES - 1,020,860
TOTAL IF IN PAIRS - 2,041,720

According to the Bible, Noah's sons existed before he began collecting the species. One of his sons, Shem, was born 1,558 years after creation and the flood took place 1,656 years after creation. Therefore, Noah had about 98 years to collect all two million life forms. In order for Noah to do this he would have to collect 20,832 species a year, or 57 species a day. Taking into account the travel time required to gather all the life forms on earth Noah's task would have been even more difficult. Also, don't forget that he had to keep these critters alive and well until the flood was ended, so he would also have to collect many times more species simply for feed stock. There is also the fact that in addition to doing all this, there would have been several tons of animal excrement to remove every day ! To top it off there is the fact that many species on this planet cannot exist outside their ecosystems. (For example, how did Noah keep the polar bear alive in the middle east climate?).

This is omitting the fact that there is no indisputable evidence of a global flood and other problems such as how the animals survived after they got back on dry land, and also how they were able to migrate to other land masses surrounded by oceans.

I now know the Bible is a load of crap.

Therefore, Noah had about 98 years to collect all two million life forms. In order for Noah to do this he would have to collect 20,832 species a year, or 57 species a day. Taking into account the travel time required to gather all the life forms on earth Noah's task would have been even more difficult. Also, don't forget that he had to keep these critters alive and well until the flood was ended, so he would also have to collect many times more species simply for feed stock. There is also the fact that in addition to doing all this, there would have been several tons of animal excrement to remove every day ! To top it off there is the fact that many species on this planet cannot exist outside their ecosystems.

Were I on a cruel bent, I would post the whole poem ... but there's a reason you don't find them unicorns. ;)

However, we might consider that Noah was the first and best-ever natural scientist; and if I might take a poke at the forum in general, what if the Ark was a spaceship?

I always like dragging up Aldous Huxley's mention of alien zeppelins flying from India to a land to the East (e.g. Americas); it gives us the answer to "What would be landing at Nazca."

In the long run, though, Infinity's conservative estimates (I'm quite sure there's more than 1,000,000 insect species) provide an excellent riddle for literalist interpreters to solve.

Coincidentally, I happened to catch an old In Search Of ... on the History Channel last night that was in search of Noah's Ark. The story of the flood is there, but not as a literalist interpretation. While I'm always a fan of bludgeoning literalists with the fact that a Babylonian cuneiform predating Judaism contains a nearly identical story, apparently this phenomena occurs the world over. Given how much of North America was once underwater (all of it, if you look at the right geological period[s]) I found it funny that literalists were seeking evidence for the flood in the Grand Canyon.

Thus I might offer the fact that the land rose out of the seas as one possible source of evidence for a flood. Also, evidence demonstrates that an Ice Age could present conditions capable of flash-flooding entire continents. Furthermore, the Mediterranean used to be part of a sea that extended east between Asia and the subcontinent. There was lots of water, and at various points in geologic history, much of that water was bound up, landlocked as such, by mountains formed by glaciers. A breach of a glacial dam in Montana, according to some geologists (in the 1960's, no less) would have covered much of the northwestern United States under as much as 1000 feet of water.

(To be honest, I could continue speculating, generalizing, assuming, and generally bastardizing better scientists than I, but since I allegedly have a job, I need to do it. I'm quite appreciative of your take on the topic, Infinity, on the grounds that I'm used to arguing archaeology and geology on this one, instead of the practical mathematics of Noah's task. Thank you for that perspective-slap. ;) )

thanx,
Tiassa

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

alright, i dont beileive in god either, but you have to realize, that a ton of other ancient religions and cultures beileive in a flood also. so i beileive that there was a flood, waht else couldve caused the ice age (i know what else, but this is my theory) alright, the water came, covered most of the earth (not all) and then it came a time a freeze, so all the world froze, thats why you have the ice age, perhaps becasue some meteor hit the earth, killed the dinosors, knocked it out of its natural orbit, and all that crap.... but then you have to realize that the earth is a desert planet, jsut look at most of the planet, sure, were most of us live its nice and cool, green and evan snows, bnut get a globe out and look at were you are, your not on the main center of the planet, you are very close to the poles, and still it is hella hott. i live in redding, and its in northern cali, and it is 110 degrees all the time. i dont know were this post has gotten me, so i will go now

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Lets look at possible definition of the "world".

When we are small kids our friends are limited those that are brought to us or we are brought to. As we get a little more that limition is lift a bit in the for of how far we can ride our bike. Then to people we meet at school. Evetualy we get a car and can meet more people and see more of the "world".

Now look at how it would take for some to travle a great distance back then. When they speak about the "world" being flooded could they just be speaking about 1 region? My gueess is yes. To them that region would be the "world".

Sixes--

Cha-ching. I mean, we all know that at one time, the whole damn world was flooded. But, in human terms ...? Thanx for pointing out a beautiful perspective.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I have a couple things to say. First off, dexter is a moron.

Secondly, the Pentateuch is not literal. You would have to either be an idiot or REALLY gullible to believe that. It is a collection of stories that represent some moral or ethic that the Jews believed in. Most of the stories did come from other cultures in Canaan.

Interestingly, there was a flood a couple of thousand years ago that did cover large parts of the middle east.

Corp. Hudson--

Just how is Dexter a moron? Maybe he's not entirely coherent, per se, in his last post, but when the heck was that considered moronic here? If failing to tie the elements of a theory together while also admitting that failure is moronic, then we're all morons. This, I can accept, and then Dexter can be a moron with the rest of us.

As to your commentary about literalism and the Pentateuch--I heartily agree. I've heard much over time about the flood a couple of thousand years ago in the Middle East, but nothing which would make me say, "Yes, Corporal, I know of what you speak." Would it be indecent to ask a little bit of enlightenment?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Corp,

Didn't a bunch us (including me) all ready smack you down for this crap before? You failed to mention my horrible speeling and missing words that I didn't notice. Calm down dude! I was as incoherent as Dexter, but at least I was able to follow his train of thought.

---------------------------------------------

Unfortunetly there are still many people who belive that entire world was flooded. This brings up a good point though. To manny people take the bible to literally.

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited June 27, 2000).]

This is totally off the post, but it has to be put here since Hudson has shown up here. I was asked who had signed to accept a particular delivery at a company we do business with. I saw the name "C. Hudson". I thought to myself: "No way. No f'ing way!""

This isn't totally off the post. At some point, every part of this planet was underwater, but I think some archaeologists and geologists have proven that it wasn't all at the same time.

hudson, just shut up, no one cares that i cant spell, except you and some others, but the trully intellegentwould understand that its not the typeing, its the thought. so just ponder by your self about you actions, and apologize.

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Dexter, I am not going to apologize for stating the painfully obvious. I don't dislike him for his spelling, but I am not going to go into the many reasons I dislike him. I think we can all agree that a flame war would be inapropriate on this board.


Tiassa--I have a couple of books with some information on the flood in the middle east, but I lent them to a friend to try and educate him about the bible. I will try and get them back from him, but he might still need them...

Oxygen-Hudson is not my real name, and I am not a Corporal. My name is Matt Jorden, and I am 16. Just some info for you :).

Oxygen,

You're cussing? ;) Gotcha.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

just apologize dammit!!!!!! god, hudson, tell me why you dislike me, seriously, what have i dont to you???

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Hello All ~
Hey Corporal, why don't you back off of Dex. In the military, a corporal is about the lowest form of enlisted, a grunt, yet you go on like you're a General. And you dislike Dex, why? So what if spelling isn't his strong point. I understand he plays a mean bass, can you?
Anyway, Dex you state that this is a desert planet. What? Last Global picture I looked at, the Earth was about 3/4 water. Maybe I just missed your meaning. Granted, the majority of Earth's population live in a temperate climate, but there are populations that don't, and have managed to survive for hundreds, even thousands of years.
Anyway, there's my interjection on this one...
Peace! :D
Once a Heathen...

[This message has been edited by Heathen (edited July 07, 2000).]

I will say this one time, and one time only. I will not start a flame war on this board. I have my opinions, they are based in reality.

You have your opinions, I have mine. End of story.

BTW, I almost forgot this. I got the books back from my friend, so here is te middle eastern flood info.

Leonard Wooley found evidence of a flood while investigating the city of Ur. There is a layer of silt, with a city below and above. This sugests there was a city, then water covered it. Then the water left, and people came and built a new city.

There have been numerous floods in Iraq as well.

[This message has been edited by Corp.Hudson (edited July 07, 2000).]

Corporal H
Little man, don't you think that you've started a "flame war" by calling Dexter a moron? Are you so stupid as to not see that? Yes, you do have you opinions and yes you are entitled to them, but when you start insulting people, what do you expect?
"People in glass houses..."
H

what i meant about earth being a desert is only a theory wich i have come up with, its jsut that, i live up in northern california, and if you look at the globe, that is accually rather close to the north pole (i think) and so is australia, and still, temps reach 110 on a daily basis, so i am only pointing out that this is a hott planet!
and thanx for sticking up for me with hudson.

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

Lori-Got me ya did! It doesn't count, though. I was quoting! I swear! I was quoting! I was in the Navy and taught as much as I learned. :)

Hudson-I figured as much. It just caught me off-guard, and I thought it was funny. :)

Something else I noticed and I want to clarify this before a flame war starts up. Australia is close to the South Pole. Either that or we've all got our globes upside down...

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited July 07, 2000).]

Back to to the original topic...

The Flood was Local. I found this out after doing a lot of studying into the issue. I have debated the extent of the Genesis Flood with many many other Christians. If you have any questions about the Bible and the Flood then feel free to ask. Mount everest was not covered with water and the Bible does not teach this like many people seem to think and no, there weren't any polar bears or kangaroos on the ark either.

Grace and peace in Christ,
Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

The fllod was global, it hit the worst in the Middle East, but it was everywhere. Evidence shows that at the same time, around the world water levels rose suddenly and slowly abated. I'm not saying that the whole earth was submerged. Also if you look you will find that the planet is getting hotter. I don't know bout anyone else, but I can remember it being colder with more snow in the winter, back in the '70s. Just saw a weather map for today, and it was dark fire red (100+) all the way up to Mid Colorado, 90's up to Montana. This is much hotter, much sooner than normal.
As for the Bible and the Ark, Do you really think that GOD is incapable of dealing with a few wild animals?? From my understanding all the animals were at peace during the time they were on the Ark. Not that I personnaly believe that. (Bible/Ark) Lots of other possible explanations that work better.

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I am where there is need, I am not where no need exists, I am a staff to lean on, a lamp to light the way, I am shelter from the storm and yet I am the storm that rages around you.
susan mcmanaway

This will be my final post on the dexter issue. Dexter, I will not call you a moron in the future. That was innapropriate of me to do on this forum, whether or not I believe it. BTW, theories have facts and research behind them. Idle speculation doesn't have to have anything behind it. Theres nothing wrong with idle speculation, but it shouldn't be mistaken for any sort of theory.

Also, back to the original question of the flood. The hebrew word used in Genesis for world, actually means region or country. I got this from "Don't Know Much About The Bible," I think it is by Kenneth Davis, but I don't really remember. Its a great book for anyone interested in the facts behind the bible.

yes oxygen, i jsut forgot to pute south, but i never clarified that it was the 'north' pole either, and hudson, i forgive you, but i do have some facts behind my theory, if you would like to hear more, e-mail me!!!

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when christianity ruled the world, it was called the dark ages.

-dexter (nimrod242 :aol sn)

"Do you really think that GOD is incapable of dealing with a few wild animals??"


The original hebrew does not teach that there were kangaroos or polar bears on the ark as I have mentioned in a previous post.

Reason for a local flood:
The Bible says God used pre-existing water (water already on the earth) to flood the "earth" (a word in hebrew which has a few different meanings: the entire planet, a localized area, plus a few more definitions.) There is not enough water on the earth to cover all the highest mountains with 20 feet of water. The Bible says the water used was pre-existing on the earth. We can assume that the Bible speaks of a local flood as everything in the account is reconcilable with a localized flood.

If you still have more questions I can post the longer version. Most likely I will be posting self quotes from other debates I have had on this topic. I am pretty sure I have answered most questions on this as I debated it on two message boards for a few weeks or something like that. I put together some very lengthy posts so be prepared to read.

I want to say one more thing. I do not doubt God's ability to cover Mt. Everest with water. He created the entire physical universe. If he wanted a global flood he could have made one happen but the Bible says pre-existing water was used. Plus the scientific evidence for a localized flood is much more plausible than the elusive big footian evidence for the global one. There is other stuff as well but its not really worth going into. Jesus is what matters. The point of the flood was to destroy human kind because it had become very wicked. Thats what is important in the flood acount. Not how many gallons of water God flooded the earth with unless someone doubts the account like the original topic of this thread. That is when you get into the specifics (apologetics).

Grace and peace in Christ,
Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Wood is not the best material for shipbuilding. It is not enough that a ship be built to hold together; it must also be sturdy enough that the changing stresses don't open gaps in its hull. Wood is simply not strong enough to prevent separation between the joints, especially in the heavy seas that the Ark would have encountered. The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long [Gen. 6:15]. Could an ark that size be made seaworthy?

How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern climatic conditions.

Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.

How did all the fish survive? Some require cool clear water, some need brackish water, some need ocean water, some need water even saltier. A flood would have destroyed at least some of these habitats.

How did diseases survive? Many diseases can't survive in hosts other than humans. Many others can only survive in humans and in short-lived arthropod vectors. The list includes typhus, measles, smallpox, polio, gonorrhea, syphilis. For these diseases to have survived the Flood, they must all have infected one or more of the eight people aboard the Ark.
Other animals aboard the ark must have suffered from multiple diseases, too, since there are other diseases specific to other animals, and the nonspecific diseases must have been somewhere.


How did short-lived species survive? Adult mayflies on the ark would have died in a few days, and the larvae of many mayflies require shallow fresh running water. Many other insects would face similar problems.

How could more than a handful of species survive in a devastated habitat? The Flood would have destroyed the food and shelter which most species need to survive.

How did predators survive? How could more than a handful of the predator species on the ark have survived, with only two individuals of their prey to eat? All of the predators at the top of the food pyramid require larger numbers of food animals beneath them on the pyramid, which in turn require large numbers of the animals they prey on, and so on, down to the primary producers (plants etc.) at the bottom. And if the predators survived, how did the other animals survive being preyed on?

How could more than a handful of species survive random influences that affect populations? Isolated populations with fewer than 20 members are usually doomed even when extraordinary measures are taken to protect them.

Why are so many animals found only in limited ranges? Why are so many marsupials limited to Australia; why are there no wallabies in western Indonesia? Why are lemurs limited to Madagascar? The same argument applies to any number of groups of plants and animals.

How do you explain the Great Flood as the work of a loving and merciful God?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Infinity,

You do post some interesting points, but it would be nice if you would credit the original source by posting the link to the website where you found the information, as follows:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html


Also, that allows the readers to browse the entire website for further information, if they so choose. I would like to post my favorite argument from that webpage:

Does the Flood story indicate an omnipotent God?

If God is omnipotent, why not kill what He wanted killed directly? Why resort to a roundabout method that requires innumerable additional miracles?

The whole idea was to rid the wicked people from the world. Did it work?

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

The points infinity raised are good ones. I have used some of that material in my debates. As I said before, the Flood was local and there is nothing in the Bible that demands a global flood.

"How do you explain the Great Flood as the work of a loving and merciful God?"

I don't see much that needs to be reconciled. Is it wrong for a police man to arrest a drug dealer and send him to jail? She he show love and compassion and grant him mercy and let him slide and continue to sell drugs instead of locking him in a cage like an animal? God says the planet was filled with wickedness. So he pouresd out his judgement. Whats your main complaint against God doing this? Any reason you give would seem to fall into the old trap of judging an omnipotent God's actions. Judging God is claiming to be Him. Its kind of like a quote I seen once that goes like this "I know this to be infinitely true because with my infinite knowledge I posit it to be infinitely so."

"If God is omnipotent, why not kill what He wanted killed directly?"


He did. He killed them directly with water. Any method God used to kill them could be followed with a baseless question like that that asks why that way and not another.

Maybe God thought people would benefit from the story of Noah and use it as inspiration so that they may have more faith in God or maybe its something entirely different. The author of that quote is playing God. Probably an atheist too, which would be pretty ironic. Saying there is no God yet claiming ot be God at the same time.

"The whole idea was to rid the wicked people from the world. Did it work?"

Yep, everybody died except Noah and company. A similar thing happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Grace and peace in Christ,
Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Originally posted by ilgwamh:
Is it wrong for a police man to arrest a drug dealer and send him to jail?

Vinnie,

No. But would it be wrong for the same police officer to kill the drug dealer and his family in order to rid the world of drugs? Would this be teaching the drug dealer a lesson? How about the rest of the world? Would everyone quit buying and selling illegal drugs if the police officer took it upon himself to kill all known drug dealers?

"If God is omnipotent, why not kill what He wanted killed directly?"

He did. He killed them directly with water.

Which required Noah to build an ark to save himself, his family and all the animals of the world (or the localized area in which Noah lived - take your pick), yada yada yada. God could just as easily have caused a fatal epidemic to which all of his chosen ones (not to mention all the animals) would have been immune.

Maybe God thought people would benefit from the story of Noah and use it as inspiration so that they may have more faith in God or maybe its something entirely different.

Oh yeah - I'm inspired alright. The entire world (or some portion thereof, including animals - were they wicked too?) destroyed by flood because humans wouldn't play by the rules. Brings a tear to my eye, I'm so inspired.

"The whole idea was to rid the wicked people from the world. Did it work?"

Yep, everybody died except Noah and company. A similar thing happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Uh, Vinnie - ahem...I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but um, let's see...how do I break this to you? Vinnie - there's still wicked people in this world. Lots of 'em. And there always have been. Sorry.



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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Crap, you got me their Searcher. How did you know that? You always do that to me.

Infinity,

Her name is Searcher for many reasons!! LOL, she does that to me all the time too - I say one thing and *poof* Searcher waves her magic "net wand" and all of a sudden she's emailed me a hundred links I could never find myself. :) Go Searcher! LOL!

Originally posted by Infinity:
Crap, you got me their Searcher. How did you know that? You always do that to me.


Ah yes, my magic "net wand" does come in handy sometimes! :)


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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Ah yes, my magic "net wand" does come in handy sometimes!


Prove it!