New study finds that you get what you ask for

Hi. Thought I'd post this as a thread starter, since some people put so much weight on the alternative viewpoint as a contention point in the "genetic" argument against right-of-return, which then seems to fuel bursts of ludicrous anti-Semitic rage.

Geoff

Hehehehehe.

You know, I almost hate to do this.

Almost.

But there’s been a lot of criticism over the genetic thing, and I'm already busy trying to get articles together for my own work...it's a hassle to have to look up someone else’s data. Anyway, in the end it only took a couple of minutes, so I suppose I could have been more generous.

The claim has been advanced that Occidental Jews and Palestinians have high genetic similarity, and that European Jews are radically different. This seems intuitively reasonable - and yet...while the Jewish population has never been huge, genetic transfer has probably been mostly operating out of their group, and not into it. That is: people leaving Judaism, but not really joining it in big numbers. This is something people don’t often recognize, nor the level of ongoing demographic cohesion of Judaism.

In fact, that's a medical problem right now: relatively small exigent population (~16 mil) and breeding mostly within-group (save for the rare convert) means that recessive deleterious alleles have been coming along. Not, say, on the same extent as Pakistan or probably Saudi Arabia, where near-rigid cousin-marrying (shore 'nuff) means a 10% incidence in nasty, nasty consanguinous birth defects in British muslims, but important enough to merit medical research.

But to get back to the point: mountainhare and Brian claimed that not only were Jews close to Palestinians, but that Ashkenazim Jews were not related to Occidentals, and were therefore - to use Brian's StormFront syntax - "squatters".

Well, perhaps not.

This is the abstract for an article in “Tissue Antigens” (published by Monkguard, I believe) by the same author leading the article Brian cites: A. Arnaiz-Villena. I’ve posted the Abstract here in its entirely. THe article deals with the HLA (“human leukocyte antigens”), representing loci that are highly polymorphic in humans and which are correspondingly used for genetic studies. The findings are essentially of high genetic similarity between Occidental (Middle Eastern) and European Jews:

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Martinez-Laso, J. (1); Gazit, E. (2); Gomez-Casado, E. (1); Morales, P. (1); Martinez-Quiles, N. (1); Alvarez, M. (1); Martin-Villa, J. M. (1); Fernandez, V. (1); Arnaiz-Villena, A. (1)

(1)Department of Immunology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain, (2)Division of Transplantation Immunology, Tissue Typing Laboratory, Chaim Sheba Medical Center, Tel-Aviv, Israel

HLA DR and DQ polymorphism in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews: comparison with other Mediterraneans. Tissue Antigens. 47(1):63-71, January 1996.

Abstract: HLA-DR and DQ alleles have been detected by DNA typing in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews from Israel. Allele frequencies, characteristic DR/DQ linkage disequilibria, population distances and their corresponding dendrogram by using the Neighbor-Joining method were used to study relatedness between Jewish and other Mediterranean and non Mediterranean populations. Closest relatedness is observed between Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and, in decreasing order, also with Algerians, Spaniards (including Spanish-Basques), French and Italians. Also, particular characteristic Central European alleles are observed in Ashkenazi Jews and Mediterranean/African alleles in non-Ashkenazi Jews. This is consistent with historical data, Jews being an ancient Mediterranean population, who have had a certain degree of admixture with their 2000-3000 years old neighbors in spite of cultural and religious traditions which have preserved identity outside Israel.

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So: yes, there has been some admixture (a “certain degree” of it, which is to say: low) – of Occidentals with Africans, and Ashkenazism with Europeans. BUT genetic identity is still quite high, high enough to cluster European Jews most strongly with Occidental Jews, and not with Europeans. A few characteristic alleles do most certainly not translate into dramatic genetic differentiation.

You see, pop gen in humans is frequently a genomic assertion of what we already know. We already know that Jewish people tend to keep to other Jewish people in matters of marriage and paternity. It’s a cultural control on a system that should otherwise be highly random. So despite thousands of years of exposure, Jews all around are pretty damned similar. That means that, if one were even crazy enough to pose a “genetic argument” against the “right-of-return” issue, it wouldn’t wash because Jews are quite similar to each other anyway. Differentiation, if any, is statistically insignificant.

So in layman’s terms, which mountainhare so whingingly demands, one would say:

“Jews is Jews.”

And right smart dressers they are, too.

I now leave it to the opposition to now proclaim their anti-Semitism - under the banner of Foleyan logic - that since all Jewish people are essentially the same, that they’re therefore all evil.

This endeth the lesson.

Geoff

 

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"He shoots... He scores!!! That makes it nil for the opposition and all for The Doctor!"

You're in good shape these days, Geoff. Nice to see.

 

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Wow, all he needed was to post ONE source to prove his entire argument and have funkstar jumps all over his bra strap!!! [and I'm beating he has no idea what this information means, if it's true or someone’s opinion. I have no idea what it means and frankly don't care but to say someone shoots and scores with one source is kinda stupid considering someone will find a source that refutes this entire argument.]

[IS JEW A RACE OR RELIGION?]

 

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*Bows* I thankee. I owe it all to my diet and my coach. Philly been good to me, yo.

Geoff

 

The genetics say: a race.

But it's also a religion!

It's like light, which is a wave and a particle.

Bang, score, win.

Geoff

 

It certainly is an attractive bra strap, and Geoff has been kicking ass all over the threads today.

So, in other words, you didn't understand it, and therefore it is either not important (someone will refute it entirely), or noone else really understands it (you're "beating" I didn't understand it).

That'll fly, I'm sure.

 

And this is where we begin the midas touch in reverse :
The actual study which conveniently and predictably Arse head here deliberately left no link to is entitled .

It is a study devoted to proving that the Palestinians are in fact the true indigenous inhabitants of the region . Just as I said :

And here it proves that the ancient Jews are in fact Palestinians .

Also the study concludes Israel started the war against the Palestinians and Arabs .

No it does not it says very clearly regarding genetics.

Brian Foley extends his middle finger

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"He shoots... He scores!!! That makes it nil for the opposition and all for The Foley Man!!!!"

You're in good shape these days, Brian. Nice to see.

 

Yes, I did understand it. A bunch of spanish chap, produced a report, to show that all jews were somewhat alike.

Thus one is to conclude that any jews who invaded Palestine has the "right" to be there and rule the land since at one time, long ago, thousands of years even, they once claimed to have lived there. That about the gish of it FunkyBraStrapBoy?

So after being 'removed' from the land [it has yet to be proven that the land they invaded was theirs to begin with or if they ever lived there..] they feel that afer thousands of years they have the right to return? Wow, the arrogance. Like saying "hold my seat" to someone at a pack Yanni concert!

That's a dangerous two-edge sword.

 

Nah really mate , I cant take any credit , it aint fair Geoff is mentally retarded and it would be bad sportsmanship to gloat

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While we're on the subject of mental retardation, Brian...

Hehe.

I thought you might track the article down, and I had a funny little feeling it would say exactly what I expected it to. And it did!

You aren't entitled to read the link, arse head, unless you're presently attending a "university" (a "big learning place"; don't trouble yourself about anything more specific than that) so the link wouldn't do you much good, would it now? Besides being potentially useful to track down my subscribing institution.

Wrong on both counts. It proves that the Jews are in fact the true indigenous inhabitants of the region: the present-day Palestinians are in fact Jews. (Moreover, it isn't "devoted" to anything; it's an analysis of evidence.)

Funny, how that cuts both ways, eh?

More importantly, it also doesn't say that European Jews are differentiated significantly from Occidental Jews. That was your premise. It was wrong.

Oopsie! Wrong again, little Brian. If the Jews and the Palestinians are the same (remember: "autochthonous Caanites"), then how can it matter who started what? They're all Caanites. I do note that the Palestinians had a "high war technology" and engaged in "many confrontations with the Jews". Wow - that sounds peaceful, not at all aggressive.

Hmmm...now what else do we have here...ahhh.

From Table 4, I note that the haplotypic frequency for HLA variants of pure "Palestinian" stock amount to a mere 0.039 (3.9%) of all variants. Conversely, the total frequency of non-Palestinian variants descended from Europe amounts to nearly double that estimate at an astounding 0.069 (6.9%)! Thus, Palestinians group very tightly with Europeans - Germans, Portugese, Italians, Spaniards - far more so than they represent an isolated clade. This is very curious. Do Palestinians, then, have any more 'genetic right' to the land than the Jews? They appear to have a high frequency of haplotypic introgression from Europe! I note also from the Abstract:

"The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoricand historic times."

Maybe Europeans have a right to the land too? Heh.

So here's the kicker: it was you and mountainhare that called the Israelis "squatters", not me. I asked you to show your evidence, and to your credit, you finally have. However, the evidence specifically does NOT support your hypothesis that European Jews have no right to the land because they're not related to Occidental Jewish inhabitants. In fact, the evidence clearly indicates that there is no "genetic objection" whatever to European Jews moving to Israel, nor to them living there.

In short: you were wrong.

That had to have been the cleanest hypothesis reject I've ever seen. Up and down, bang out. Nice.

I do thank Foley for sending that link though. Saved me much time. Cheers!

The funniest bit tho is this post by dkb:

Ahhh. Some "chaps" from some "un-heard of school"? Really?

Cause it's from the SAME guy who wrote the paper that Foley cited and didn't understand, and for which you patted him on the back.

Oopsie! Little slip-up there. You should probably read, I don't know, the first couple lines of things before you post on them.

And thus, Geoff P extends his middle finger.

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Buh-bye!

Geoff

 

Stop bullshitting , you got caught out , you didn’t think anyone would bother checking your source .

More bullshit , the link is freely available all over the internet the source I provided the HTML link .

Now here is where Arse head realizes he has Fucked up major , and so in an attempt to save face he turns the study around on its head . The study is about the Palestinians and their genetic origins which go back to the Caananites , not a study about Jews and their genetic origins.

No my premise was very clear :

And that is precisely what this study does it proves Palestinians are a mixture of all the races from The Caananites / Philistines / Hebrews / Greeks / Romans .

Now this is where Arsehead displays his idiocy , after claiming Jews were the true indigenous race , he is now saying the Palestinians and Jews are the same race . How do you say DDDDDDIIIIIUUUUYYYYY!!!! ROFL

They are squatters the study clearly says those Jews came their in the late 1800’s were simply immigrants , read the section where I quoted who started the war .

In short : You have made an Arsehole out of yourself again , in future read your sources fully and be more honest in your presentation of the facts , lets this be a lesson to you .

No I fully understood the study , its very simple , it is a study on the genetic origins of the Palestinians , and the study concludes that the Palestinians are in fact a mixture of all races that have conquered or settled in that region . You deliberately selected certain quotes out of context to the meaning of the study and deceitfully presented them in a fashion to bolster your case . Let this thrashing be a lesson to you .

And sticks it into his Arse and pulls it out and puts it into his moth to taste a Shit stick . ROFL

 

can i see the source of that, Brian?

"Israels self-proclaimed independent in 1948 and started a war
against Muslim Palestinians and other Muslim neighbouring countries. After several regional wars, Israel has taken more space and sized Jerusalem"

come on, give me a break. where is your logic? the war started a day after israel was decleared. would the jews in israel immediatly risk it and launch a war against the arab nations? moreover, that would make the UN which gave them israel abit angry, don't you think? that doesn't make any sense.

 

Mine isn't. That's why I said so. Think, then write. Sad.

Wrong again, Foley. (How I like saying that!) No, it's a study about the genetic relationship of all those examined. How in hell can you have a genetic study of the "origins" of Palestinians (which, actually, the article cannot address and ) without sampling relationships from other representative genetic groups?

And where, pray tell, are the Caanite samples, thicko? Hmm? The finding was that there was no genetic differentiation between Jews and Palestinians. The authors cannot conclude whether or not the present-day populations are the "original" or "derived" group unless they sample 3000 year-old Caanites, because they don't know for sure what genetic processes went on in the intervening 5000 years. Hmm, didn't see any Caanites in the saaaample... So, in fact, one can't really know whether the Palestinians were descended from Caanites, or Philistines, or Jews, or dispossessed Maoris unless they include genetic samples from Caanites. I don't think those 165 unrelated Palestinians ranged in age up to 3000. Du-uh.

To put it another way you might understand - hope springs eternal - each of the above groups has some value of genetic differentiation from each other. For Jews and Palestinians, it happens to be zero. This is not enough evidence, frankly, to conclude that the Jews "came from" Palestinians or vice-versa. It merely means that there is no significant genetic differentiation between them. (If there had been a spate of interbreeding of the two, the signature could well look the same even if there had been extreme genetic differentiation, which is not something I am suggesting.) So I point out - again - that there is no genetic differentiation between Jews and Palestinians, and, contrary to your hypothesis and mountainhare's, no genetic differentiation between European and Occidental Jews.

Ergo, you were wrong. I know how you like to look at a headline or a sentence in a paragraph and rubber-stamp it as supporting your point, but here you're going to have to work a bit. Frankly, if you can't get this, you are in state of being "beyond help".

Your premise was clear indeed - and wrong. Palestinians come from a variety of places, but Occidental Jews are not genetically different from European Jews; hence, European Jews cannot be "squatters" and could not be denied a "genetic right" (whatever that's supposed to mean) to live in Israel.

What's got you so riled up? Is this article considered to be some kind of "Mein Kampf"-style raison d'etre seminal posting at Storm Front? Have you guys been basing every one of your vicious little opinions on this "keystone" paper? Because it's not saying what you think it is.

Apparently, it's spelled F-O-L-E-Y.

And now, you're even claiming the Palestinians were the "ancestral" group. Sorry, sonny, but there's about as much - exactly as much, in fact - evidence for that as for the Jews to be the ancestral group. No 3000-year old Caanites were sampled. Please try to understand, ok? You look kind of stupid when you get off on your rants.

Look up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochthonous

In the context of the authors it means "similarly sprung from the earth". Autochthonous Caanites. In other words, another group of Caanites. It speaks nothing whatever to ownership or precedence.

The study has nothing whatever to do with the issue of Jewish immigrants in the 1800's or any other time.

"The genetic identity of Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Jews who now live in Israel has already been reported [8]."

Now, which one is reference [8]? Why, it's this one:

Which I already posted to dump on the idiotic theory you and mountainhare espoused. Sorry - you and mountainhare have been blithely arguing that European Jews are "genetic squatters". You were wrong. If you want to argue that they're some other kind of squatter, go ahead. The genetics don't support your little...er..."theory".

No, you didn't fully understand the study, and you personally are very simple. Jews are not genetically differentiated from Palestinians - which, according to the "genetic rights" theory that you and mountainhare and the other Storm Fronters slapped together - actually means that European Jews have as much right to Palestine as Palestinians! No genetic differentiation, remember? I liked how you tried to stick the 'variability' argument in there, though - it gave me and the lab a laugh.

So, again, you and mountainhare were wrong. That's W-R-O-N-G. F-O-L-E-Y. But if you want to keep on whining and demanding more evidence...

I've got more. A lot, actually. And it really doesn't look good for you, no sirree no. Not good at all.

So...want it? Do ya? Do ya, boy? I'd love to post it. But I tell you what: you back down and sit like a good little doggie, and I won't. I'll let it slide. Your call.

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I imagine you probably would "rolf" if you stuck your finger up your ass and then tasted it, Foley. I don't know why that qualifies as "fun" where you are, but I don't recommend you do it any more.

Geoff 1; combined monkeys 0

Geoff

 

The main purpose of Israel, was so that the Allied forces, could keep control of the oil trade in the middle east. Them giving it to the Jews, because it's a promised land. Is probably only about 1/3 true. So this would explain why they would put up with a war, correct? It's very important to the military. Not the best reason in my opinion, but the truth.

 

The question of Palestine is one for the here and now. There is no equal blame there. One side is the oppressor, the other the oppressed and until that injustice is overturned, there will be no peace and no tolerance.

Zionism is the cause BOTH of Jewish racism AND Muslim anti-Semitism. No solution which keeps the two communities in a state of apartheid will work. Until Israel is gone, there will be no peaceful coexistance.

 

Not only that, but I hear they lean.

Geoff

 

Then the Muslims will flourish in the oil trade. I wonder if that means they can buy bigger guns? Then where would the Jewish people reside. They obviously can't live in the same place. It's just simply against their religions. So is this really the best solution? I don't think so at all. It's more of a common answer to the problem, to just end it. It has never worked well with people.

What about a win, win situation? Where every party loses, and gains in personal value? Or would that just take too long to think out?

Besides, why would we want to lose Israel? Do you know that oil keeps most countries alive? It's too sensitive to just say "get rid of the country". A better solution would be much easily done by finding new fuels. Then what value is the country to us? We would destroy Isreals current governent, and do as we're doing in Iraq. Making it more of a democracy.

 

spoken like an real terrorist!!

 

Yes Geoff, I know. Ironic, isn't it?

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