A small alternative public school program has been expanded into a full-fledged school for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students.

The Harvey Milk High School, an expansion of a 1984 city program consisting of two small classrooms for gay students, will enroll about 100 students and will open in the fall.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93060,00.html

Should a publically funded school be allowed to only accept gay students? I feel bad for them if they are picked on, but that's a fact of life in high school for many who don't fall into this category.

I'm really worried that some Christian and other groups will take this as an opportunity to open publically funded Christian schools and the like. Once we okay for this school, we'll have to for others.

on a similar topic, i seem to remember some time in the past hearing a news story about a school forbiding the formation of a gay student union or some such, on the grounds that the school said its not its place to endorce sexuality of any sort. Thats a fairly logical standpoint, but then again what the hell is the prom all about?

I'm more worried about a philosophical return to segregation. At present, I don't see the long-term benefit. Admittedly, it sounds like a good idea in the short term in order to give gay students a place to normalize within their educational experience, but the long-term potential of a return to segregation nags at me.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

A school like this might cause more problems than it solves, lesbians/gays/transgendered people going to normal public schools in the area are probably going to have this thrown in thier faces "Theres places for people like you" kind of stuff.

But really why would you think a place like this flat out shouldnt get public dollars? Does everyone in the public have to have this problem in order for it to get public money? Well not everyone has down syndrom, or autism but they get public money and special schools, because they face challenges that other students do not.

The challenge faced by homosexuals and transgendered students isnt quite the same as those faced by autistic or dissabled children. Thier challenge is social rejection and physical violence from other students. Put them in a situation with other children like them and problem solved, right? Is this not a benifit for the students? for the public?

From a CNN.COM article on the story:

State Conservative Party Chairman Mike Long criticized the creation of the school.

"Is there a different way to teach homosexuals? Is there gay math? This is wrong," Long said. "There's no reason these children should be treated separately."


i would like to see somone challange him to have his personal items stolen, strangers harass him, and physical harm done to him over a number of weeks and see how well he does on regularly administered math tests.

Originally posted by tiassa
I'm more worried about a philosophical return to segregation. At present, I don't see the long-term benefit. Admittedly, it sounds like a good idea in the short term in order to give gay students a place to normalize within their educational experience, but the long-term potential of a return to segregation nags at me.

I think you make a good point about segregation here. With the push from the right for school vouchers, and the movement from Libertarians and the far right to abolish the Board of Education, I fear where this may lead.
Originally posted by SpyMoose
But really why would you think a place like this flat out shouldnt get public dollars? Does everyone in the public have to have this problem in order for it to get public money? Well not everyone has down syndrom, or autism but they get public money and special schools, because they face challenges that other students do not.
Publically funded schools should include everyone. Except in the extreme cases of the mentally challenged where there is a different learning curve. EVERY student has to deal with crap, that's the way of the World.
The challenge faced by homosexuals and transgendered students isnt quite the same as those faced by autistic or dissabled children.
True.
Thier challenge is social rejection and physical violence from other students.
The same could be said of fat students, nerds, ugly students, kids with bad acne, etc.
Put them in a situation with other children like them and problem solved, right? Is this not a benifit for the students? for the public?
NO. New clicks will be formed and a social hierarchy will develop to seperate students just like any other school. Gay and lesbian kids can be just as cruel I'm sure as any other one.

I have no problem supporting special counciling. Reality is that students have to deal with retarded students and special education students at school and in the work place all the time.

I'm not sure what your problem is with partially funded christian schools. Should a child's parents have to pay the taxes for public school and pay for a private school education?

Originally posted by static76

The same could be said of fat students, nerds, ugly students, kids with bad acne, etc.

are you really going to take the position that being gay in highschool has the same severity as having acne?

Depends. Most kids in school don't shout out about how they are gay or straight. So most of the time no one is even aware that they are gay. However I could see some classes like gym being problem but all they probably will see is a man's underware.

Originally posted by SpyMoose
are you really going to take the position that being gay in highschool has the same severity as having acne?
Yes. It really depends on the school, but bad acne can have just as bad if not worst the effect. Out here in LA it isn't a big deal at all if your gay, but I have seen "acne challenged" kids get tortured by other students.

A deeper question I have is how does it benefit gay students to be seperated from others? How will they handle the World after highschool, when they are faced with prejudice?

has no one realized that there are single sex schools? segregation. my brother went to a school that will only accept boys even though i wanted to go. if there are single sex schools why not single sexuality? it's not about being taught differently, it's about offering a comfortable environment.

Is there a different way to teach girls? Is there girl math?

My bet is that those single-sex schools won't get public funds. Not sure on the law here though.

remember that kid in kansas who got tied to a fence and beaten to death for having bad acne?

Well first off I can certainly understand the shock and disgust about such a school being opened. I think that Tiassa is over reacting a bit when she shouts about a return to segregation. The distinction in this case, is that this isn't going to be a school that they ship all gay students off to, but instead is simply a voluntarily chosen alternative to a normal public school.

Another issues is public funding. Frankly I don't think that a school like this should be getting very much, if any public money, it's just not a complete necessity, and I've got to admit that the idea does sound a bit frivolous. Remember that despite the fact that this school is called a "Public School" doesn't actually mean that it's even getting any public money, that just means that it has a public charter, and that it has to live up to certain standards and follow certain rules. After all if other private institutions such as the boyscouts, and even public establishments like the military can get all the leeway they like in banning homosexuals, why the hell can't a privately, or even slightly funded public institution be "gays only"?


Reading through an article on CNN.com it sounds to me as if this school is acctualy privately funded:

The school is an expansion of a two-classroom public school program that began in 1984. A gay-rights youth advocacy group, the Hetrick-Martin Institute, has managed and financed the program since its inception.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/07/28/gay.school.ap/index.html


So, if this is a privately funded institute, then I've got absolutely no problem with it admiting only homosexuals. If it's getting public money then they should still admit anyone, even if their primary aim is to cater to homosexuals. Why any straight kid would want to go to this school, of course is quite beyond me, maybe he's just a tease?

Now, the reasons that a homosexual student might want to go to an all gay school seems pretty obvious to me. Yes, it's true that everyone gets picked on in school, but there is a very large difference. First off, for fat/geeky/blemished skinned kids the insults really come only from other students, for a homosexual student, they'll certainly get quite a bit from other students (provided their sexuality isn't a secret) but usually a geeky fat pimplepuss isn't going to have to wory about similar problems of judgement when it comes to the parents of his tormenters (which could well come into play) or even faculty of the school having problems with them. Or put another way, there is no religious movement designed to shun the uglies over at the unpopular table. No one is going to tie you to the bumper of their car and drag you behind it for a few miles, or tie you to a post and beat you to death because you like to spend your lunch period reading in the library if you get my drift. If you thought that you were a social pariah for playing Magic: The Gathering, just count your lucky stars that you weren't barred from attending prom because of the gender of the person you wanted to bring as a date.

Anyway, the fact that this school exists is a reflection of a stratification in society which already exists, it's catering to that stratification, which is kind of a scary thing, but when it comes right down to it, in my heart of hearts I know that if there was a school like this near me back when I was of high-schoolin' age I have to admit that I'd probably prefer to attend it rather than a normal public high-school. My little sister (currently going to the same high-school I went to when I was her age) gets enough unsolicited religious arguments about her being a vegetarian for Gods sake, I'd hate to think of how things would have gone if I were openly gay at the time.

This brings up yet another possible positive point, it could encourage some young homosexuals to come out, and avoid all the crazying effects of being in the closet. That'll really screw with you, believe you me, there's a good reason why the suicide rate for homosexual teens is so much higher than for heterosexuals.

I think that it was in poor taste that this school be named after Harvey Milk. As mentioned before this school is catering to a sort of stratification which is already there. . . but do they have to be so blatant about it? The name seems to be almost a warning to the children "Be careful chillins' the straight man wants to shoot you!" that's what it says to me, anyway, and is not what I'd chose to name a school who's aim is supposedly to provide an environment where the kids don't have to deal with all that nastyness.

All and all, though I have to admit that it reminds me a bit of the X-men, and rightly so, it was all one big metaphor anyway.

hmm. i went to a higschool that was publicly chartered and privately funded myself. The article did mention an orginization that had been puting this together, i wonder if they are footing the bill.

have you ever BEEN in a school?

do you know what the MOST used way of saying something is bad is?

ITS GAY

i herd that from the time i started year 7 till i finished year 12

can you POSSABLY imagin how much that screws up someone who is bi when they cant admit it to themselves because "gay = bad"?

except for what tiassa said about segregation i think go them

Meh. Interesting. Only, they probably won't get the blessing of the RCC. Ohhhhh that would be MOST unfortunate. :rolleyes:

How is it possibly a good idea to go back to segregation?? Personally, I think this whole concept works entirely against the gay community.

-- Hm, how can we hope to make gay life easier? I know! We'll take all gays out of public schooling, that way straight kids won't ever, ever have to get use to the idea of some kids being gay!! --

This is much more of a detriment than an aid.

Again, quit just shouting out segregation, it doesn't apply here! This isn't a separate but equal mentality, it's not even a "keep 'em separate" mentality. This is a completely voluntary program which students can choose to enroll in.

So in other words, if a gay youth happens to feel that he'd rather end up killing himself than going to another year of a school in which his peers are entrenched in a culture of hating his sexuality, he has the option to go somewhere else with a more inviting atmosphere.

This doesn't mean the segregation of public schools, there are still going to be gay kids going to regular public schools in NY, but those who prefer not to have to be subjected to that won't have to be.

If you’re upset that now gay children and straight children won’t intermingle and be all happy and friendly in public schools anymore, well guess what, that wasn’t going to happen anyway! As much as I’m sure everyone here, myself included, would like to shout about getting youth to be ok with the idea of homosexuals being the only way to really shift the cultural paradigm in order to be more accepting of homosexuals, I don’t think that anyone can really make a case that forcing some kids to be a part of that is going to work.

Your missing the point Mystech. I have no problem with a PRIVATELY funded high school like this. But when public funds are used it gets scary. What's to stop people from setting up a public all-Christian school that offers kids school pray and a religious education they can't get with non-Christian students? Let's say there's a poilitician wants a Christian school in Kentucky to get public funding. How can we argue against that, yet support an all gay school.

When you have a guy like Bush in office, and a large supply of politicians and officials with their own agendas, this could be a bad trend.

Originally posted by static76
Your missing the point Mystech. I have no problem with a PRIVATELY funded high school like this. But when public funds are used it gets scary. What's to stop people from setting up a public all-Christian school that offers kids school pray and a religious education they can't get with non-Christian students? Let's say there's a poilitician wants a Christian school in Kentucky to get public funding. How can we argue against that, yet support an all gay school.


Doesn't bush already have programs like this enacted? What was all that about his funding for "faith based initiatives" and the like?

Also, do we know conclusively that this school is getting public money just yet? That CNN article gave the impression that a private group was footing the bill for all of this.

Originally posted by Mystech
Doesn't bush already have programs like this enacted? What was all that about his funding for "faith based initiatives" and the like?

Not that I'm aware of...

He has pushed for pray in schools but I don't know of any publically funded Christian schools.
Also, do we know conclusively that this school is getting public money just yet? That CNN article gave the impression that a private group was footing the bill for all of this.
It's a public school that recieves private donations.

I think that Tiassa is over reacting a bit when she shouts about a return to segregation.(Associative mistakes ....) ;)

At any rate, recap of influential vagaries:

- At Catholic school, we were subject to yearly retreats to get closer to God. Some of these were morbidly hilarious, including the day fifty sophomores sat around talking about cliques and making an effort to eat their lunch with someone new next week. Not a particularly direct point, but more a suggestion of motif.

- At a reputedly liberal university (U of Oregon, home of Nat'l Lampoon's Animal House, saw the occasional professorship of Mr. Ken Kesey, and what a ferocious left wing!) I was shocked when certain segregations entered dorm life. I understand cultural segregation when language is a barrier, but from the elitist Singaporean Chinese° (1% of campus population) to the blacks to the gays, the lesbians, the boys, the girls ... the only "rainbow" was composed of cloistered and dedicated potheads in various groups according to such criterion as Grateful Dead or Spin Doctors ....

- During the Clinton administration, of all times, although also during the Republican Revolution, attention was given to minority segments advocating a return to segregation

- Many have heard me rant about Oregon in the 1990s; no need to revisit that chapter here.

- A new divisiveness ripples coldly through my surroundings under the auspices of the war on terror.

None of these influences has brought back full-blown segregation, but the simple fact is that any institutional segregation bothers me. In one sense, we might look to a complaint in the 1980s and early 1990s; American education was imperiled, said the critics, and quite often rightly, because we were tailoring school standards to equalize by accommodating the bottom end of the curve. There was no striving to bring that bottom end up to a higher par.

And that's kind of what bugs me about the modern whispers and rumors of "return to segregation"; it seems to me that we're lowering the standard. It's too hard to figure out, so we'll give the bigots their stomping ground and go off over here ....

In the short term, like I said, this seems a good idea. Properly managed ideologically, the near future might point toward the self-evident fact that people who are allowed to feel normal perform better than those who are expected to feel alienated or ostracized.

And from that is a difficult long-term potential. It's a challenge in the modern day to hope for anything on such a scale; a dangerous comparison here would be to point toward HIV and gay men in the United States, where recent data has shown that ethnic minority gay men, responding to a stronger expectation of heterosexual normalcy, behave less responsibly. Among gay men whose other social factors are more normalized (e.g. white, out of the closet), HIV trends are declining. Among the closeted, pressured, alienated, there is a behavioral response suggesting recklessness common to any party under certain levels of stress regardless of the source.

So if we take a survey, and just to use generalizations, between, say, New York and San Francisco, and if conditions show that gay students are more accepted socially in San Francisco schools than New York schools, would we be surprised if we found that SF's students performed, for all relevant factors, better?

I do not, however, propose the method of quantifying that progress. It's one of the reasons I ruled against a sociology major when I was still in college (certain kinds of detail work drives me nuts).

The public/private issue is something I'm less prepared to comment on. Something about Pepsi, something about private influence in public policy, and possibly all paranoia. So ...

Anyway, I suppose there is a long-term good I can hope for, the reinforcement of the somewhat observable fact that many problems people come to associate with homosexuality go away when people stop making such a big deal out of it. (e.g. "This brings up another positive point ... craziness of the closet ....")

And, of course, those students who, in the meantime, get a better education than they would have gotten otherwise ... we can't overlook that.

But I do worry about institutional segregation at any level.

(You know, this started out as a short post. I swear.)

Notes:

° Singaporean Chinese - My freshman-year roommate was a Singaporean Catholic of Chinese descent; essentially part of the ruling ethnic and ideological group. At first I left his quirkiness alone, but by the time I got to meet the rest of the folks from Singapore--they even got us raided for beer one night by campus security, the reckless bastards--I was stunned. All of those years of resentment regarding anti-Asian stereotypes and here I was among a flock of, literally, bad-driving, picture-taking, American-cool-wanna-be second-sons with $30k cars who complained about paying taxes on American money taken from their investment portfolios ... stunning. Interestingly, the University recruited heavily in Singapore, namely because the students who came brought money with them. Among them, though, was one--a whole one Singaporean Sikh. The cultural difference was amazing. So I cannot blast Singaporeans in general for being among the elite of the elitists at the University, and thus must identify them according to further superficial categorization. It is my regret, but that's about what superficial categorization was worth to them. In the end, I wanted to beat all of them severely for every bit of shite I'd taken from two-bit backwater divorce-baby white thugs in my day. I mean, if I were to depict them honestly in a film, I would be excoriated in the press as a racist. They were a serious hitch in my awareness of racepolitik.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by static76
It's a public school that recieves private donations.

But, again it could be that it's a school with a public charter, which does not receive public funds. Like I said I'd prefer that this kind of school not receive public money, but I'm honestly not going to lose any sleep if it does, Homosexuals are already excluded from enough public organizations, it's really time they gave a bit back, hah! Though, honestly if we want to have hope of leveling the playing field, that is, we can't be asking that special money go to homosexual causes just because in certain places they were or are excluded from other organizations funded by their tax dollars. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, and all that.

Originally posted by tiassa
And, of course, those students who, in the meantime, get a better education than they would have gotten otherwise ... we can't overlook that.

But I do worry about institutional segregation at any level.

Thanks for the recap, I don't see how a few of those points relate back to the issue, but I think we've come to expect a bit of long windedness and just a bit of a detour when reading your posts, and only come to appreciate you more for it.

I've got to agree with your conclusion. I don't think that anyone is going to be reveling in the fact that these students are separated from their heterosexual peers, but at the same time if that's what it takes to let these kids feel like they are in a safe and supportive environment so that they can concentrate on their schooling, well then so be it!



Originally posted by tiassa
(You know, this started out as a short post. I swear.)


Oh yes, well they always start short, don't they?

Thanks for the recap, I don't see how a few of those points relate back to the issue, but I think we've come to expect a bit of long windedness and just a bit of a detour when reading your posts, and only come to appreciate you more for it.Sorry to make it so difficult.

Quite simply: Segregation is wrong. That it stands to benefit a group of people who have my political, personal, and spiritual sympathies as human beings does not change that fact.

If I refuse segregation to the racists, I must refuse it now.

Easy enough?Oh yes, well they always start short, don't they?Experience has taught me that people just aren't smart enough for the short version, either. But the short version usually leads to the long version anyway. Several times longer and spread out over an extended period.

At any rate, sorry I can't agree with you 100% today. But for all the bitching I do about justice and fairness, don't you think I ought to stand for it?

Just curious.

What was wrong before is not right in the present just because I perceive a benefit.

Or would honor and integrity compel me to reasonably forfeit a standing principle for abstract greed?

Care to give me an opinion one way or another?

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by Mystech
But, again it could be that it's a school with a public charter, which does not receive public funds. Like I said I'd prefer that this kind of school not receive public money, but I'm honestly not going to lose any sleep if it does, Homosexuals are already excluded from enough public organizations, it's really time they gave a bit back, hah! Though, honestly if we want to have hope of leveling the playing field, that is, we can't be asking that special money go to homosexual causes just because in certain places they were or are excluded from other organizations funded by their tax dollars. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, and all that.

What public organizations are gay people excluded from? Yes there are people who will make the lives of gay people miserable, but that is true of Jewish, Black, Latino, etc., people also. I don't see gay students being hurt by public schools, in fact they are usually more successful than their straight counterparts.

The answer to homophobia in schools is not to hide away gay students in a special school for them where they will be protected. The real answer is to handle the people and issues that inflict the harm in the first place.

Originally posted by tiassa
Sorry to make it so difficult.

Quite simply: Segregation is wrong. That it stands to benefit a group of people who have my political, personal, and spiritual sympathies as human beings does not change that fact.

If I refuse segregation to the racists, I must refuse it now.

At the same time though, shouldn't there be some sort of safe refuge for those who decide that they just don't want to have to put up with the hassle? Consider it a little vacation so that they can focus on what really matters at that point in their life and being in such a place: their education. If all they are going to get is shit from their peers, and that interferes with their schooling, then I think it's great that they have the ability to just walk away from it all. I really can't make a comparison to segregation in my own mind; the two are working on much different levels.

We're not talking about all here, we are talking about some; some who make a voulentary desision that they would be better off in a less traditional environment. There's nothing to keep them from returning to a normal public school. As I think I mentioned earlier, I would also be more at ease if I knew for sure that a heterosexual student applied to join this school (for whatever his or her reasons may be) that he or she not be denied on grounds that it would not have a major impact on the goal the school set out with, creating that sort of safe haeven as it were.


Originally posted by tiassa
What was wrong before is not right in the present just because I perceive a benefit.

I'd have to agree with you there, but as I've tried to illustrate here there is a very large qualitative difference between that thing in the past and that thing in the now. Examine the situation, what was wrong with segregating schools in the past? Are the negative aspects still the same in the current situation? In my mind they are not, and we can get into that if you like.

Originally posted by tiassa
Or would honor and integrity compel me to reasonably forfeit a standing principle for abstract greed?

I just don't have enough skills in mental gymnastics to view the situation in this context, I'm sorry. I don't see greed, and the virtue of the principle eludes me, I also feel that it's a completely different principle than was present in the past.

Originally posted by static76
What public organizations are gay people excluded from?

Well, I'm talking primarily about the military in this case, if you're looking for direct official administrative policy excluding them from public organizations.

Originally posted by static76
The answer to homophobia in schools is not to hide away gay students in a special school for them where they will be protected. The real answer is to handle the people and issues that inflict the harm in the first place.

Yes, and in an ideal world this wouldn't just be a pipe dream. The issue is quite a bit more complex than you make it sound, unfortunately a lot of these issues can't just be mediated away, genuine hatred isn't really quite that responsive to a slap on the wrist and a stern warning. While large campaigns of educating people and promoting tolerance could well have an effect over a long period of time (and it seems that they are) I don't think that it's unreasonable to provide a sort of "quick fix" for those who feel they need one in the mean time.

Originally posted by Mystech
Well, I'm talking primarily about the military in this case, if you're looking for direct official administrative policy excluding them from public organizations.

The military situation is definantly unfair, it is one of those old laws Republicans and conservatives cling to. But I would ask you question, is the answer to start gay-only divisions or keep trying to intergrate? IMO, the fight should continue to change this policy, instead of running from it.

Yes, and in an ideal world this wouldn't just be a pipe dream. The issue is quite a bit more complex than you make it sound, unfortunately a lot of these issues can't just be mediated away, genuine hatred isn't really quite that responsive to a slap on the wrist and a stern warning. While large campaigns of educating people and promoting tolerance could well have an effect over a long period of time (and it seems that they are) I don't think that it's unreasonable to provide a sort of "quick fix" for those who feel they need one in the mean time.
Creating seperate schools isn't the answer either. Intolerance exists for MANY groups everyday, gay people aren't the only ones persecuted. The precendent this sets is a very dangerous one, and it will be used vigorously by the people with their own agendas.

At the same time though, shouldn't there be some sort of safe refuge for those who decide that they just don't want to have to put up with the hassle? It worked so well for blacks and the schools .... Consider it a little vacation so that they can focus on what really matters at that point in their life and being in such a place: their education.I have acknowledged the short-term benefit. If that has to become the long term benefit ... well ... doesn't that sort of speak to the problems of segregation? If all they are going to get is shit from their peers, and that interferes with their schooling, then I think it's great that they have the ability to just walk away from it all. What other harassed segment of society gets that privilege?I really can't make a comparison to segregation in my own mind; the two are working on much different levels.Perhaps there's some dimension of the art of keeping people separate that I don't understand in relation to our discussion, but would you mind clarifying that difference?We're not talking about all here, we are talking about some; some who make a voulentary desision that they would be better off in a less traditional environment.Again, I'm seeing a difference between the short term and the long term.

It's sort of the same thing that's wrong with the most common and abusive uses of the phrase, "America, love it or leave it."I'd have to agree with you there, but as I've tried to illustrate here there is a very large qualitative difference between that thing in the past and that thing in the now.The only difference I'm seeing in the large picture is the idea that it's the "other side of the fence". It takes on the appearance of the idea that because this segregation benefits a group receiving sympathies instead of a group one opposes segregation is suddenly the right thing to do.

I really don't see the difference. Honestly. Some people believed that black Americans would prosper under such conditions, as well.Examine the situation, what was wrong with segregating schools in the past? Are the negative aspects still the same in the current situation? In my mind they are not, and we can get into that if you like. Perhaps your perception of those aspects is what I'm missing here.

Utterly and completely privatized, I would leave such a school to its explorations and results without opposition, and perhaps with encouragement. But as there are public associations with it ....

When the Supreme Court overturned "separate but equal", people gasped because it was one of the few times the court overturned itself on such a fundamental issue. And that overturning would not have happened if "separate but equal" had not proven a general failure.

Pundits of sympathy to homosexuality will have to tread delicately when the conservatives raise hell; this won't be the standard leftist defense for anybody. I don't foresee a Christian attempt to usurp the schools any more than we're already used to. But if they manage their salvos on this issue correctly, they'll have a point. And if that happens ... it's not so much about denying the Christians a point, per se. But at that point, the whole thing gets heaps tougher for everybody involved, especially those with the absolute best of intentions.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

can anyone compairing this to segrigation try to see this as a short term solution to save kids who feel like they might kill themselves if there is no alternative to the type of higschool situation they are in now (the numbers are quite large) rather than a systematic exodus of homosexuals from the heterocentric (oooh i bet thats not the first time somone has used the word but i feel like i just invented it... im special.. and urm *clears throat* intellectual) school system?

it might be possible that a school like this could act like a safty net to actualy save lives, give another option in those situations.

Originally posted by SpyMoose
it might be possible that a school like this could act like a safty net to actualy save lives, give another option in those situations.
They're not refugees from an opressive country, we're talking about highschool.:p

Almost everyone hates high school, from the geeks to the jocks to the teachers and so on. It's a part of growing up, a right of passage we all have to endure.

Originally posted by static76
Almost everyone hates high school, from the geeks to the jocks to the teachers and so on. It's a part of growing up, a right of passage we all have to endure.

According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and PFLAG:
Studies on youth suicide consistently find that lesbian and gay youth are 2 - 6 times more likely to attempt suicide than other youth and may account for 30% of all completed suicides among teens.

more info at http://www.pflag.org/education/schools.html

The know your facts section sums up some of what homosexuals go through that isnt just your run of the mill highschool bull.

catholic schools do not keep out people who are not catholic. they simply don't ask. what it means to be in a catholic school is that it is private and the money to run it comes from sunday collection baskets. my elementary school was community; it got it's money from the church it was affiliated with. my high school was diocesan; it got money from pooled funds of the entire diocese. my brother's high school was private but catholic; money from parents and alumni but run and taught by an order of brothers who live on the school grounds. it's all about where the money comes from. i can't imagine this harvey milk school keeping out straight people who want to go to a gay school. i can't imagine them even asking their students what their orientation is. seems to go against the point of it.

if it is as good as private, i might have wanted to go there if it was around back then.

Originally posted by static76
The military situation is definantly unfair, it is one of those old laws Republicans and conservatives cling to. But I would ask you question, is the answer to start gay-only divisions or keep trying to intergrate? IMO, the fight should continue to change this policy, instead of running from it.

Right, and policy does continue to change for the better, but very slowly, and cultural acceptence even slower. That's what this is all about.


Originally posted by static76
Creating seperate schools isn't the answer either. Intolerance exists for MANY groups everyday, gay people aren't the only ones persecuted. The precendent this sets is a very dangerous one, and it will be used vigorously by the people with their own agendas.

And in your opinion should these kids be asked to stay in the trenches, as it were, and continue to win over acceptance? These kids aren't political activists, they aren't civil rights advocates, they aren't fucking freedom fighters. Their needs at the moment are a learning environment where they don't have to worry about people scratching "Fag" into their lockers, throwing bricks at them, threatening to run them over or defecating into their lockers (go ask an openly gay person how high-school was for them, these are all real anecdotal complaints, and you know that there is even worse out there, death threats and minor violence are pretty much just the usual fare).

This isn't segregation, this is not the categorical separation of one group from another, this is voluntary separation for the purpose of safety and providing a more friendly learning environment, and that's it. That's all there is too it.

Originally posted by static76
They're not refugees from an opressive country, we're talking about highschool.:p

Almost everyone hates high school, from the geeks to the jocks to the teachers and so on. It's a part of growing up, a right of passage we all have to endure.

You really need to look into this matter more, static76. This goes quite a bit beyond the run of the mill high-school angst. We're talking about kids trapped in the middle of a state endorsed cultural hatred of homosexuals. Combine that with the vicious little animals that are high-school kids, and yes in many instances it can even be lethal.

Originally posted by tiassa


I really don't see the difference. Honestly. Some people believed that black Americans would prosper under such conditions, as well.Perhaps your perception of those aspects is what I'm missing here.



The main difference is that this is not a categorical separation of one group from another. It does not follow the separate but equal mentality, but instead the goal is to provide a safe alternative to what, for many, may be an unworkable situation.

It is completely voluntary, meaning yes, there are still going to be homosexuals in NY's regular public schools. If you're worried that this school is going to crate an us vs. them mentality, then I'd have to point out the fact that this school wouldn't exist if that mentality wasn't already in existence and making a lot of kids lives miserable.

In the end this is what is best for the children (Good lord I feel like a conservative all of a sudden). We are talking about troubled teenagers here, these aren't going to be the people who are going to break down the barriers and bring about a new age of tolerance in this country, they are just some frightened kids who want to be able to go to school in an environment where they don't have to constantly worry about being targets for all sorts of mental and especially physical abuse.

This school does not cater to the idea that homosexuals and heterosexuals can't or shouldn't try to co-exist or intermingle, but recognizes that the tensions among youths about these two groups make for a very difficult learning environment.

can anyone compairing this to segrigation try to see this as a short term solution to save kids who feel like they might kill themselves if there is no alternative to the type of higschool situation they are in now (the numbers are quite large) rather than a systematic exodus of homosexuals from the heterocentric (oooh i bet thats not the first time somone has used the word but i feel like i just invented it... im special.. and urm *clears throat* intellectual) school system?What an excellent question, SpyMoose. I do believe that if you read through the topic, at least one of them acknowledges that point.

And while the short-term benefit of normalized study and social environments are a good thing, there is a flip-side.

- "Here's your diploma, and your lesson for life: Remember that people hate you so much that we had to segregate you from the rest of society in order to protect you."

It doesn't exactly solve the problem.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa

- "Here's your diploma, and your lesson for life: Remember that people hate you so much that we had to segregate you from the rest of society in order to protect you."

It doesn't exactly solve the problem.


Haha, well as it stands if they are going to be going to a regular public school they are probably going to be getting that same message every single day they attend, anyway.

But if it should say something to that effect on their diplomas I'd just have to steeple my fingers as I sit here, face partially concealed by the shadows of my dark room, and laugh bitterly and menacingly, as it advances my own secret agenda of promoting tensions between sexual orientations so that I may more easily sway others into gateway organizations such as the pink pistols (http://www.pinkpistols.org) and eventually recruit them into my secret gay militia.

. . . sorry I’m just in a silly mood tonight.

Originally posted by Mystech
You really need to look into this matter more, static76. This goes quite a bit beyond the run of the mill high-school angst. We're talking about kids trapped in the middle of a state endorsed cultural hatred of homosexuals. Combine that with the vicious little animals that are high-school kids, and yes in many instances it can even be lethal.
Sorry, but that's high school. Running from those who don't like you, serves no purpose but to give the homophobes what they want.

Also, I think your being unfair to the vast majority of American youth in their views of homosexuality. I'm willing to bet that they are many more people willing to defend gay students, than there are to opress them.

Originally posted by static76
Sorry, but that's high school. Running from those who don't like you, serves no purpose but to give the homophobes what they want.

So, your honest and heart felt position on this matter is that openly homosexual teens do, in fact, not experience more persecution and ostracism from their peers in high-school? Be careful, because if you say yes I'm quite ready to show you how painfully wrong you are. Try to keep in mind that the issue at hand was caused by the fact that the state of New York disagrees with your opinion. Of course, that, alone, doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it should be the beginning of an indication that there is something to the idea.

Originally posted by static76
Also, I think your being unfair to the vast majority of American youth in their views of homosexuality. I'm willing to bet that they are many more people willing to defend gay students, than there are to opress them.

I'm sorry, but this is the most blatantly naive thing I've heard all day. I'd wager that most would react ranging from indifference to mild dislike, a large few would react with hatred, and a very small percentage would actually be willing to "defend" their homosexual peers.

High-school kids with their cliques, and heavy reliance on following the perceived social dictum for their particular age group aren't notorious for standing up for the rights of others, especially when social precept is working against such a thing. Much more likely they’d just fall in line and say that “homosexuals are gay”.

Originally posted by Mystech
So, your honest and heart felt position on this matter is that openly homosexual teens do, in fact, not experience more persecution and ostracism from their peers in high-school? Be careful, because if you say yes I'm quite ready to show you how painfully wrong you are. Try to keep in mind that the issue at hand was caused by the fact that the state of New York disagrees with your opinion. Of course, that, alone, doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it should be the beginning of an indication that there is something to the idea.

It varies from school to school, from state to state. In the Western part of the US its not that big of a deal at all. Fat, ugly, and nerdy kids are the ones who get it the most. Most teens don't want to be seen as homophobic or racist, and the tolerance for either is very low. Maybe in the heartland and south its a little different, but not much.

As for the state of New York...They're wrong. I guess if the state of Kentucky feels that an all-Christian public schools is needed to shield students from "the dangers of no school pray and the evil atiests", I should just accept it. Running isn't the answer, they must stand and fight.

Thankfully minority students didn't take this attitude during the Civil Rights movement, otherwise schools would still be segregated.
I'm sorry, but this is the most blatantly naive thing I've heard all day. I'd wager that most would react ranging from indifference to mild dislike, a large few would react with hatred, and a very small percentage would actually be willing to "defend" their homosexual peers.
Incorrect. Where is this vast highschool hatred for gay students at? Perhaps I missed all the news reports?

Once again, I have seen no evidence to support your theory that gay students are treated any harsher than fat, ugly, nerdy, etc.
High-school kids with their cliques, and heavy reliance on following the perceived social dictum for their particular age group aren't notorious for standing up for the rights of others, especially when social precept is working against such a thing. Much more likely they’d just fall in line and say that “homosexuals are gay”.
Most students usually already know who the "openly" gay students are anyway, yet I don't see a plague of gay bashing in high schools at all.

When I watch these crying losers on these talk shows complaining about how they were mistreated in high school, NOT ONCE has it been because they were gay. It usually had to do with their weight, looks, or them being a geek.

Give me evidence that high school is a heaven for gay bashing, because right now I see it no more prevelant than racism, sexism, or any the norm.

"I'd wager that most would react ranging from indifference to mild dislike, a large few would react with hatred, and a very small percentage would actually be willing to "defend" their homosexual peers."

i'm sorry you feel this way. :( i know it's accurate but i'm one straight girl who will assassinate the president for my gay peers. and it's not just because my dearest friend is a lesbian, it's also a matter of justice and morality.

static, it may not be a gay bashing heaven because it's more subtle than that. it's deep seated beliefs held by the students that don't need violence to necessarily take their toll. unfortunately i have heard "i'm gonna kill that fag" in the hallway more than once. it was never said straight to a gay person's face but it was always there. and i went to a performing arts school. i can't imagine what public schools must be like. to live in that kind of fear has to be detrimental to kids' education. if they'll feel safer and more comfortable, they'll be able to focus on their studies without the fear and pain.

bloomberg is for it. that guy certainly is unpredictable but so far he's not done anything that would make me want him out of office. i'm ticked off about recycling but i understand the reasoning behind it. so if bloomberg is for it, it needs no discussion because it'll happen.

Originally posted by SwedishFish
static, it may not be a gay bashing heaven because it's more subtle than that. it's deep seated beliefs held by the students that don't need violence to necessarily take their toll. unfortunately i have heard "i'm gonna kill that fag" in the hallway more than once. it was never said straight to a gay person's face but it was always there. and i went to a performing arts school. i can't imagine what public schools must be like. to live in that kind of fear has to be detrimental to kids' education. if they'll feel safer and more comfortable, they'll be able to focus on their studies without the fear and pain.
Racial slurs are also thrown around. Along with Sexist terms calling girls "sluts" and "whores", even if they don't sleep around in many cases. That's what high school is, a cesspool of teenage egos and issues. I'm sure the geeky kid who gets physically assaulted would be glad to know his problems don't compare to that of gay students. I guess when Cindy is called a slut and her reputation is ruined for her 4 years, she can take solice that her plight doesn't compare. Poor Tom who is fat and physically and verbally abused by other students will have to realize that he doesn't really have it that bad. And I'll be sure to tell the black kid in a school with hardly any minorities, that he shouldn't worry about being degraded and called racial slurs.:rolleyes:

You see, almost everyone gets it in high school, all in various ways. Running away will only give please the small group of homophobes, and alienate those gay students who choose to stay in a regular school. This is a can of worms you really don't want to open.

i'm not denying there are plenty of racially motivated crimes. and i don't believe that hates crimes against gays are somehow worse than those crimes either. but somehow it makes sense to me. i guess it's because everyone knows race is not a choice but some still think sexual orientation is so it is acceptable to bash gays which makes life more dangerous for them.

I don't understand the distinction between homosexuals and other minorities in terms of suffering harrasment in schools?

If gay students get a special school to escape persecution by straight students then why not have a special school for blacks to escape persecution from whites, whites from everyone else, etc...its a slippery slope.

The fact that these people are persecuted is undeniable, but they are not handicapped and should not need a special school.
Public schools should adopt AGGRESSIVE anti-discrimination and education campaigns to deal with this, segregation is not the answer.

Originally posted by jps
I don't understand the distinction between homosexuals and other minorities in terms of suffering harrasment in schools?

go back a few pages and take a look at my link to the harasment statistics for gay teens on the PFLAG website.

Originally posted by static76
It varies from school to school, from state to state.

I'd imagine that this is true.


Originally posted by static76
In the Western part of the US its not that big of a deal at all.

You've got to be kidding me. I live in the western United States, and I'm all too aware of the climate here. It's not better here at all. Maybe if you're referring to some parts of California I can understand what you're trying to say, but to imply that this backwater that we call the western US is, in general, more accepting of gays is about as far from the truth as you can get. All them cowboys in their big pickup trucks don’t take too kindly to fags. By and large the Western US is a very conservative area of the country, and in general (certainly not always) strong conservatism and homosexuality just doesn't mix.

Originally posted by static76
Fat, ugly, and nerdy kids are the ones who get it the most. Most teens don't want to be seen as homophobic or racist, and the tolerance for either is very low. Maybe in the heartland and south its a little different, but not much.

Oh yeah, lord knows that fat kids and nerds have it far worse than homosexuals. I mean people may be prone to point and even laugh at them, or even act snooty around them! I hear that sometimes they even get beat up! What a shame!

Look, I'm not looking to play the "Ohhh my high-school experience was so much worse than yours" game here. It's not my aim to compare homosexuals suffering with those of other kids, but mealy to show that it is enough to justify a school like this. If you're worried that maybe this is a personal thing and I'm trying to act all angsty or whatever and imply that you had it easier than me in high-school, you can just forget that. I wasn't openly gay in high-school and so only had the typical harassment for being a nerdy little book worm, though I can see that I could have been much worse off than that.


Originally posted by static76
As for the state of New York...They're wrong. I guess if the state of Kentucky feels that an all-Christian public schools is needed to shield students from "the dangers of no school pray and the evil atiests", I should just accept it. Running isn't the answer, they must stand and fight.

If Atheists were such a problem that Christian kids were fearing for their physical well being, and suffering from mental trauma induced by the hostile environment, then I'd be all for it. Don't demand that a bunch of frightened kids stay and fight some screwed up battle, that's not what they're at school to do. It’s not running from the issue, it’s setting their priorities straight. If they want to promote acceptance, they can do that on the weekends for all I care, their education shouldn’t be compromised because of it.

Originally posted by static76
Incorrect. Where is this vast high-school hatred for gay students at? Perhaps I missed all the news reports?

Maybe you just missed out on high-school? Did you fail to notice that calling something gay is pretty much the only insult kids even issue, any more? It's ingrained in their little society, homosexuality is wrong!

Originally posted by static76
Give me evidence that high school is a heaven for gay bashing, because right now I see it no more prevalent than racism, sexism, or any the norm.

Take a look at a few of these links:

http://www.pflag.org/education/schools.html
http://www.sexetc.org/stories/genStoriesArticleDetail.asp?aid=art_1092
http://www.pflag.org/education/hatecrimes.html
http://parentingteens.about.com/cs/gayteens/

It seems as if very many school districts, as well as many organizations around the nation seem to see this problem which you appear to be blind to. The fact is, if you are openly gay in high-school you will be subjected to verbal and likely physical abuse on those grounds, and usually on a regular basis. This is true of homosexuals out in the real world, as well, unless you happen to live in a very uncharacteristically tolerant setting you WILL be targeted. This is a very real problem, but don't just take my word for it, or just the sources that I provide you with, go out searching on your own, look into this, ask any gay friends you may have who were out in high-school. Violence and abuse in a homosexual's life is something of a grim inevitability.

Originally posted by SpyMoose
go back a few pages and take a look at my link to the harasment statistics for gay teens on the PFLAG website.
Ok. I did. The fact that the abuse is severe does not change anything.
Setting up a seperate school is like admitting that our public schools cannot be made safe for all the students which is something we should never accept.

Originally posted by jps
Ok. I did. The fact that the abuse is severe does not change anything.
Setting up a seperate school is like admitting that our public schools cannot be made safe for all the students which is something we should never accept.

But should we, then just turn a blind eye to it all? We can't control everyone's minds. So long as the cultural climate stands as it is, there's not a hell of a lot that can be done. This solution is perhaps the most effective toward the end of making homosexual kids feel that they are in a safe learning environment.

Originally posted by Mystech
But should we, then just turn a blind eye to it all? We can't control everyone's minds. So long as the cultural climate stands as it is, there's not a hell of a lot that can be done. This solution is perhaps the most effective toward the end of making homosexual kids feel that they are in a safe learning environment.
I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye, i'm saying we should make the public schools safe for everyone. If anything, the kids making the schools unsafe for gay students should be sent to special reformatory schools

Originally posted by jps
I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye, i'm saying we should make the public schools safe for everyone. If anything, the kids making the schools unsafe for gay students should be sent to special reformatory schools

I like that line of thinking, too. It's a much better solution than simply letting the gay kids removes themselves from normal public schools if they choose. However, as easy as it is to talk about doing something like that, it'd be all but impossible to actually implement. It's a huge and complex problem, and I honestly don't think that there is any quick and dirty way to get results from that kind of strategy short of completely hijacking the public school system and bogging it down with homosexual issues. Even then, such action could cause a backlash, so hell that probably wouldn’t even work.

I actually think our educational system for the most part should be rebuilt from scratch.
It may be that this gay-only school will make things easier for some kids and thats great, but I think it sets a bad precedent.

At both highschools I attended, I don't remember there ever once being a problem with descrimination of any kind. Hearing of things like the Columbine shootings always simply struck me as odd. Here were two boys who'd apparently been tortured to the point of going on a homocidal rage..I never witnessed, even once, anything like what apparently goes on in some parts of the country.

When I was in fifth grade, I sat in the classroom for ... an hour or so I think ... while my teacher chewed out the entire class. We later found out the entire fifth grade got it, whether we were there for the incident or not. But apparently a bottle of spilled apple juice resulted in pants-wetting jokes which resulted in a sudden feeding-frenzy which apparently resulted in five or six of our social-climbers beating the most effeminate boy in the class for being a girl. The part of the classroom my teacher spent the most time yelling at was the first-tier cool group cloistered on one side of the room. Apparently, the alphas of the herd chose to cheer on the beating.

A faggot-related aside in ninth grade ended up with me in two fistfights and I eventually assaulted a teacher. I got away with it because the administration knew, schoolwide, it was a matter of time before one of the lone wolves started devouring people. (At that school I got away with every fight I ever got in on the grounds that people really were stupid enough to start it with me. I even got away with taking a chick up on a challenge to a fight, but that's because they were busy managing the near-riot that resulted in a Hollywood-like flash escalation of several fights. It was an ... amazing day. Everybody in a PE class of forty who had a problem with someone else in the room suddenly decided to have it out after the mega-obese special-ed student went stratospheric all over the teacher and one of the metal-stoners that were of the mold that would eventually inspire Beavis and Butthead. As to my contribution to that morning, I quote Tim O'Brien: Boom-down. Like a sack of concrete. Needless to say she had a better, attitude for the most part after that.)

One of my junior high school's top agitators and suave operators would eventually see his world collapse. People "thought" he was gay. He shot himself with a shotgun at 17. I heard about it a year later. The last day of school in ninth grade I passed on an opportunity to fight him because I was ready to kill him. Needless to say, I was not dignified when I received the news. The dead through my high school years hurt dearly. That one of the worst people I knew of chose to kill himself rather than simply change his image or be thought of as gay ... well, I always knew he was that stupid; I won't pretend I received the news with anything other than zealously angry glee.

In a non-faggot issue, I was once attacked by three people for looking too Asian. The school chose to hold me accountable for being in a fight. And I learned for the second of about four times in my youth exactly how stupid my parents are. ("Well if you didn't do anything wrong, why are they punishing you?" Because they punish everybody in fights. "Well why did you get in a fight?" Because they jumped me. "Well what did you do to upset them?" How do you look at your white adoptive parents and say ... I exist.)

By the time I got to Catholic school, people had generally gotten over it. They simply presumed I was Satan.

May good fortune continue to smile upon you, TheEnd. I'm glad you were spared the battlegrounds. I knew how to make explosives in high school. The big difference is that we never actually blew anyone up. Then again, when the Beavis-and-Butthead metal-stoners set the vice-principal's truck on fire in junior high, it didn't even make the local Herald.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool: