Netanyahu agrees to "limited" Palestinian state

Discussion in 'World Events' started by S.A.M., Jun 14, 2009.

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  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31353238/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

    Basically he wants to keep the West Bank and Jerusalem while expanding existing settlements, Palestinians to recognise the "Jewish" state and give up resisting the ever expanding occupation. He also declared that there would be no right of return for the refugees.

    What a shocker.

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    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    seems to me to be trying to create an outcome that would end up with Israel being able to annex gaza and completely force the cost of their crimes on others.

    west bank and gaza together can't absorb all the refugees Israel created and they expect gaza to do it alone.



    also form my point of view it Israel telling the world fuck all of you and any agreements the only thing that matter is are wants now.( they made an agreement 20 25 years ago to leave the west bank and gaza) I mean basically saying were tired of having to pretend we want to meet our side of the agreements we've made shows the world what Israel truly is.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    They are trying to provoke an intifida by proposing conditions that no sane person would accept. If the Palestinians are smart, they will not be provoked and will let the US do their work for them. All they need to do is sign up for twitter, youtube, facebook with foreign journalists and television stations and make their situation a real time drama that directly reaches the people, bypassing the regulated media. Khaled Meshal is already being touted as a peace maker in the Israeli leftist press!

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092587.html

    Realise that this is not an easy situation for Israel, even if we were to ignore the right wing Yahoo-in-charge. Freezing settlement expansion or agreeing to the road map would mean that they have to accomodate the settlers in Israel. This would raise real estate prices in a poor economy. They would have to provide jobs for all the thousands of IDF soldiers whose full time occupation [pun intended] is to help sustain the settlements and protect the Yahoos in the West Bank. Moreover, once they reject the right of return, they will have to pay the refugees. Its a major money issue.

    But, Yahoo is short sighted. This speech was an opportunity of a lifetime. Obama and an Arab peace initiative will not come together in every generation. By pacifying the settlers and his coalition, he has preserved his status quo and condemned the Palestinians to further occupation, but he has also delegitimised the cause of the Zionist state and undermined the future of the Jewish one. He'll be remembered as the man who gave away Israel.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    i LOVED (sarcasium intended) the comment that the state would have no right to a defence force. What nation on earth INCLUDING japan doesnt have a right to an army even if all they do is sit around telling crude jokes to each other all day (actually i would PREFER thats what they did all day). I wonder if the palistinians agreed if israil would agree to abolish ITS army?

    Not to mention the stupidity of having a country where you require a passport to travel across (ie there is no direct land or sea root as far as i know between gaza and the west bank without going through another country)
     
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/full-text-netanyahu-s-speech-2783313

    The speech is so vague on details I really don't see how one could say it is or is not a call for 2 state solution. I think what he saying is if Palestine recognizes israel and if they stop terrorism and the means to implement terrorism (weapons) then israel will: "we will do our part in making every effort to facilitate freedom of movement and access, and to enable them to develop their economy. All of this will help us advance a peace treaty between us." that gloriously vague but I guess the details must be sorted out: "and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the State of the Jewish people, then we will be ready in a future peace agreement to reach a solution where a demilitarised Palestinian state exists alongside the Jewish state."

    On the settler questions he says "we have no intention of building new settlements or of expropriating additional land for existing settlements." but says nothing on whats th be done with them in the long term.

    As for palestinians refugees, in refused to let any in Israel and seem to call for surrounding countries to absorb their refugees as citizens aka just like how the israel absorbed all the jews the arab states kicked out after the 1948 war: "The Palestinian refugee problem must be solved, and it can be solved, as we ourselves proved in a similar situation. Tiny Israel successfully absorbed tens of thousands of Jewish refugees who left their homes and belongings in Arab countries. Therefore, justice and logic demand that the Palestinian refugee problem be solved outside Israel's borders. On this point, there is a broad national consensus. I believe that with goodwill and international investment, this humanitarian problem can be permanently resolved."
     
  9. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    The Palestinians shouldn't agree to anything less than full ownership of the ENTIRE "holy land" as well as the complete removal of all non native Jews.

    If they do not want them there, of course. Their choice.

    This is a lose lose situation for the Palestinians.
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    fuck getting rid of the jews they should keep them there and make a part of the palestinian state for no other reason than a better tax base
     
  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    So you don't have a problem with the mans expecting the palestinians to give up one of their rights as a people to satisfy the jews. You know what i would call that.

    um he wants all the freaking west bank.

    so jews being forced to leave going to a state they would have gone to anyway is the same as saying Palestinians should just say screw our rights let just ignore the fact were we illegally denied our rights and pretend we never had them. The palestinians have every right to return to palestine. You want to complain about being called a bigot but what else do you call demanding a people giving up their rights to satisfy the wants of another people?
     
  12. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Whatever, as long as the Palestinians keep them there willingly. It's their land, after all.
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Note I never stated I agreed or disagreed with his statements I only stated they were vague. I personally would like the Palestinians to have a army integrated with the IDF in fact a 2 government systems, but we need that 2 state system and the development of trust and brotherhood before that can happen. An obvious flaw in Ben's basic plan is that for the Palestinians to self police and enforce law them selfs their police forces are going to require at least minimals arms, the Palestinians at least needs some minimals armaments. If you believe the Palestinians should have a full army capable of repelling the Israelis that would be economically impossible for them at the present time, if somehow Jordon were to want to require the west bank all Palestine needs is a defense pack with Israel.

    a good assumption, but he makes no such claim.

    This Jews in Arab states were kick-out, never paid for property lost and many would have remained their if it was not for the Arabs kicking them out and massive persecution following the formation of Israel. The Jews of Arab countries have every right to return to those countries and the properties they were expelled from, you have a double standard if you don't see the right of Arab Jews having been taken away as wrong. One would account that it would be fair that the Arabs countries with massive Palestinians refugee populations were to grant them citizenship instead of oppressing them, let alone to equalize the moral loss of kicking out the jews.
     
  14. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    A good while ago I advocated a one state system..........a state in which both Palestinians and Israelis not only lived in peace, but in unity....united by their common cultures and in that they are Semitic

    However that isn't going to happen, so give it back to the Palestinians and let's get it over with.
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I would thinking a multi-camel legislation divided by religious lines would work, with a Jewish congress, a Muslims congress and a Christian congress and a 2/3 vote for all laws, coalition governments for the prime ministry would be based on cooperation between the most powerful parties in each congress. Of course this would require the Jews and the Muslims to agree to living in a country were neither would have majority rule and the Christian be allocated far more power per population just to remain tie breakers for the Jews and Muslims, and before theis they would have to gain enough mutual respect to stop killing each other.
     
  16. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Nope.

    It's always unfair in that case. The gov't should not make decisions. Merely establish law and order.

    Palestinians and Israelis can voluntarily choose where they live and who they interact with, as well as community decisions. In such a diverse state as Israel, having that system would always result in someone being pissed off.
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    The simple fact is you have made no condemnation of him wishing to deny a people their rights.



    not in this speech at least.



    Yeah but it is ignorant to ignore a possible reason for doing so. Israel had already shown a willingness tofor conquest to grab land even the smallest group of jews were on.
    I would be all for it protecting that right but since I have yet to here anyone trying to claim that right. They don't want to go back they want to stay in palestine.
    yes because it is fair to deny someone their rights. To demand peace at the expense of palestinians rights in what ammounts to condoning the Israelis crimes is bigotry. Demanding anyone should be denied their rights for any reason is bigotry. Something you and the Israelis need to learn along with you will never get the peace that at least in the your case want if you demand the palestinins give up their rights simply for what amounts to jewish wants.
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Do I need to? you can do the condemning, I was simply point out the speech was vague.

    Which is probably why people are saying this speech is unusually liberal for him.

    Difficult to say that, the 1948 war makes it hard to say what was garbed and what was abandoned and what was displaced. Israel has also both made settlements and taken land and has retracted settlements and return land before.

    that does not mean they aren't to reimbursed for the property they lost, and many have made such a complaints.

    Again a difference in our philosophy, I would take peace over justices as I believe justices is not a definite construct while peace can be measured in quantitatively in life and quality of life, you believe your version of justice is the one true justice and that blood can and shelt be split because you value life less then justice, especially the life of one group over another, defining bigotry in your self. Again you believe Israeli children should be murdered over a general peace and reduced death toll on all sides because of you bigotry, and then you have the balls to complain about rights of lower priority then the right to live. Apparently Israeli's rights to live is worth less then Palestinian rights to have a military.

    Something you and the palestinians need to learn is that you will never get justice or peace if you keep attacking Israel and refusing to make compromises simply for what amounts to your hatred of Israelis and desire for vengeance.
     
  19. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    The West relies on the propaganda that Israel wants peace with the Palestinians and murders thousands of Palestinians for its internal security. This is a complete lie.In Obama's Cairo speech he stated that 'No one can deny Israel's right to exist.' However the popular sentiment of not only the Middle East, but the world community, is that unless Palestine's right to exist is recognized, settlements abandoned, occupied Palestinian lands returned, and a truly independent Palestinian state (w/ a military, police force, control of its water and resources, and its own tax collecting service) there is no reason for anyone to accept the right of Israel to exist. The US itself doesn't accept the right of sovereign nations to exist, i.e. Iran. Why should the people of the region accept a nation which interferes in their internal affairs and courts Western governments to sanction and invade them. Similarly as Obama stated the bonds between America and Israel are unbreakable, the bonds between the Muslim world and Palestine are unbreakable. The Palestinians are not 'in pursuit of a homeland' as he mentioned, they had a homeland, only they were expelled from it through massacre and terror from groups like the Haganah. It is still their rightful homeland, and the hypocrisy of the Western elite in regards to Palestine nullifies any rhetoric of democracy, freedom, and human rights.
     
  20. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

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    Pretty much. "Fuck you!" in other words. It's better than " We'll fuck you and then cut you up", which was the Olso plan.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Hear hear! :bravo:

    Hasbara Alert!!!!!


    http://www.meforum.org/707/post-zionism-and-the-sephardi-question
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
  22. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    No surprises from Netanyahu, Lets see if Obama is a man of his word, or has ANY semblance of integrity.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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