.... Nevertheless, and contrary to what we would expect scientifically, studies have shown that 'near death experiences' do occur in such situations. This therefore raises a question of how such lucid and well-structured thought processes, together with such clear and vivid memories, occur in individuals who have little or no brain function. In other words, it would appear that the mind is seen to continue in a clinical setting in which there is little or no brain function. In particular, there have been reports of people being able to 'see' details from the events that occurred during their cardiac arrest, such as their dentures being removed....

Dr Parnia is a graduate of Guys and St. Thomas' medical schools in London. He is currently a registrar in internal and respiratory medicine as well as a clinical research fellow working towards a PhD in the molecular biology of asthma. He was a member of the Southampton University Trust Hospitals resuscitation committee between 1998 and 1999. He is also chairman of Horizon Research Foundation. While working on the medical and coronary care units of Southampton General Hospitals and together with Dr Peter Fenwick he set up the first ever study of near death experiences in the UK. The results of this study have received widespread coverage in the national and international press and have recently been published in the medical journal "Resuscitation"

http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

Near death experiences may be due to a release of DMT into the spinal fluid by the Pineal gland under stress. DMT is a powerful hallucinogen. There is a book on this subject, one of the first legal studies on hallucingens in recent years.

Originally posted by spidergoat
Near death experiences may be due to a release of DMT into the spinal fluid by the Pineal gland under stress. DMT is a powerful hallucinogen. There is a book on this subject, one of the first legal studies on hallucingens in recent years.

therefore raises a question of how such lucid and well-structured thought processes, together with such clear and vivid memories, occur in individuals who have little or no brain function

They forgot that this is already understood as a function of the brain. Further, even though the heart had stopped, the brain has enough oxygen to live for as long as 25 minutes before brain damage occurs. Another study hid targets on top of furniture etc. such as numbers and letters. Of course, none of the NDE's could report what these were despite having reported to float above the operating table to where the targets were visible. Further, NDE's can be induced in virtually anyone using a centrifuge designed to test astronauts. Many of the visual phenomena in NDE's are caused by the rapid firing of the optic nerve. Of course, this would not entice the naive and easily led media, and would not sell as many books or lectures. Same crap, different day.

Further, even though the heart had stopped, the brain has enough oxygen to live for as long as 25 minutes before brain damage occurs.

so an eeg would indicate brain activity during this period? what does a flatline mean to you? does this apply to situations of cardiac arrest? (eeg's flat within 10secs)

Another study hid targets on top of furniture etc. such as numbers and letters. Of course, none of the NDE's could report what these were despite having reported to float above the operating table to where the targets were visible.

heh, the dead are asked to play sherlock holmes? how good are your observation skills? you are aware of healthy witnesses of crime giving wildly disparate reports? citation please

Further, NDE's can be induced in virtually anyone using a centrifuge designed to test astronauts.

uhh, and this is considered a refutation? would you count my acid trips as another? help me out and connect the dots.

Many of the visual phenomena in NDE's are caused by the rapid firing of the optic nerve.

citation please. what images are you talking about? those from the immediate environment? are the eyelids open? blind people have reported nde's

Of course, this would not entice the naive and easily led media,

actually cynical and exploitative would be a more appropriate characterization. where do you live?

and would not sell as many books or lectures.

an ability to seperate the wheat from the chaff is a sign of a discerning and wise individual. a blanket condemnation of the phenomena indicates an agenda or ignorance. which is it?

perhaps i outta give you the benefit of the doubt. discuss the dutch study (http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm) gime me your views on their findings . while van lommel's research was hardly conclusive, he acknowledges there are unanswered questions.

Same crap, different day

i am gonna go with ignorance

In a lecture at the Royal College of Physicians in London a few years ago, entitled "Brains and minds: a brief history of neuromythology" to my surprise, the lecturer; a well respected professor of medicine discussed the mind/brain topic and concluded that the belief held by some neuroscientists that some day the discovery of more complicated molecular pathways would lead to an understanding of the mind is more compatible with "neuromythology" than neuroscience. (link in topic post)

arf arf

it is becoming increasingly clear to me as to who the real nuts and fanatics are. this blind faith is tiresome. explore new avenues...damn talibanish scientists!

:D

This thread should be moved to Pseudoscience where it belongs.

Originally posted by Quasi
They forgot that this is already understood as a function of the brain. Further, even though the heart had stopped, the brain has enough oxygen to live for as long as 25 minutes before brain damage occurs.

Clearly you haven't even bothered to read the paper. Same crap, different day.

Originally posted by (Q)
This thread should be moved to Pseudoscience where it belongs.

Based on what objection?

Here you go, cut and pasted from your link:

The occurrence of NDE and out of body experiences in cardiac arrest would support the view that mind, 'consciousness' or the 'soul' is a separate entity from the brain. However, large studies are now needed to test and verify this. The key point in any study rests on testing the validity of consciousness and an active mind at a time when the brain does not function and the criteria of death has been reached. This can be done using large-scale studies together with independent tests of the out of body phenomenon in cardiac arrests. If the results are positive, this will then prove the existence of the age-old philosophical concept of the 'soul' and in so doing open up a whole new field of science.

heh
funny:D
you said nothing

you said nothing

The quote says it all.

Are you in need of hand-holding?

Originally posted by (Q)
you said nothing

The quote says it all.

Are you in need of hand-holding?

But you didn't quote it all.
In addition to the neural network theory other alternative views have also been put forward. Some scientists and most notably Stuart Hameroff, an anaesthesiologist in Arizona and Roger Penrose, a mathematician in the UK, have proposed that mind or consciousness may be produced by quantum processes in brain cells. Another view proposed by David Chalmers, a philosopher in Arizona, contends that the mind may itself be a separate entity in its own right. This is similar to the discovery of electromagnetic phenomena in the 19th century which could not be explained in terms of previously known principles, and which consequently led scientists to introduce electromagnetic charge as a fundamental entity in itself. In a series of lectures held at the University of Sorbonne in Paris, Bahram Elahi, a professor of paediatric surgery has also defined 'consciousness' or the 'soul' as a separate entity, which is made of a subtle type of matter that remains as yet undiscovered. Hence, contrary to popular belief, he defines 'spirituality' as a science in its own right with its own laws theorems and axioms.

The occurrence of NDE and out of body experiences in cardiac arrest would support the view that mind, 'consciousness' or the 'soul' is a separate entity from the brain. However, large studies are now needed to test and verify this. The key point in any study rests on testing the validity of consciousness and an active mind at a time when the brain does not function and the criteria of death has been reached. This can be done using large-scale studies together with independent tests of the out of body phenomenon in cardiac arrests. If the results are positive, this will then prove the existence of the age-old philosophical concept of the 'soul' and in so doing open up a whole new field of science.


I have attended a number of physics lectures - both as a student and then after graduating - that addressed issues of consciousness and QM. In fact, the resolution of Maxwell's Demon paradox is resolved only with the recognition that structured data - information - has energy; and that random data does not. By this, it seems that the structure of thought must have energy, thus mass.

I have attended a number of physics lectures … it seems that the structure of thought must have energy, thus mass.

It appears you slept through the lectures.

The statement below is the only statement worthy of comment in the article - the rest is nonsense:

Roger Penrose, a mathematician in the UK, have proposed that mind or consciousness may be produced by quantum processes in brain cells.

And here is the comment:

"I am very cautious about the quantum - psychic connection. It is entertaining speculation but that's all.”

-- Roger Penrose

Originally posted by (Q)
I have attended a number of physics lectures … it seems that the structure of thought must have energy, thus mass.

It appears you slept through the lectures.

It is obvious that you are in way over your head.

Originally posted by (Q)
The statement below is the only statement worthy of comment in the article - the rest is nonsense:

Roger Penrose, a mathematician in the UK, have proposed that mind or consciousness may be produced by quantum processes in brain cells.

And here is the comment:

"I am very cautious about the quantum - psychic connection. It is entertaining speculation but that's all.”

-- Roger Penrose

No one here said anything about psychic phenomenon. This is a cheap dodge that has nothing to do with the quote.

You are in way over your head.

Well, I tried Q, but again your are not worth the effort.

lets deal with nde's first. agree on some cases and then move onto the inner workings

i want....blind nde cases. best i came up with is Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind

read the reviews. a bit inadequate i think. i need shit published in a journal
thanks

I think the key point is this: If we have thoughts and memories while exhibiting no activity on an EEG, then clearly we don't know of any mechanism to indicate the presence of a consciousness. This at least raises a few questions about when to declare someone dead. Next, since it has always been believed that it is not possible to have thoughts and a flat EEG, the significance of this observation is apparent. One interesting possibility is that clinically induced NDE-like experiences may be a completely unrelated in that all of the trials involve subjects with active brain function. Still, at the least, some deeper, unrecognized brain function appears to evade detection.

No one here said anything about psychic phenomenon. This is a cheap dodge that has nothing to do with the quote.

That statement shows you did not bother to read anything aside from the article you linked - very poor research on your part. If you had, you’d know the quote was relevant. Your accusation of a cheap dodge must be very embarrassing for you.

Well, I tried Q, but again your are not worth the effort.

What exactly is it you tried? I don’t see anything of value. You started a pseudoscience thread and linked a pseudoscience article in a science forum and made a worthless boast about attending lectures.

That’s your effort? Weak at best.

You are in way over your head.

Really, let’s have a look at your statements.

In fact, the resolution of Maxwell's Demon paradox is resolved only with the recognition that structured data - information - has energy; and that random data does not.

It turns out that it’s not really a paradox at all, so no resolution is required. Essentially, it means that the less useful the energy, the more entropy and stochastic the results. And that is somewhat different than your so-called resolution.

By this, it seems that the structure of thought must have energy, thus mass.

What is your definition of ‘the structure of thought?’

So, if something has energy, it MUST have mass?

Careful, don’t go over my head with your response. :D

Further, NDE's can be induced in virtually anyone using a centrifuge designed to test astronauts. (quasi)

The incapacitation resulting from +Gz-stress included 11.9 seconds of absolute incapacitation (unconsciousness) and 16 seconds of relative incapacitation (confusion/disorientation) for 28 seconds of total incapacitation (period of time for lack of purposeful movement). Myoclonic convulsions were observed in approximately 70% of the unconsciousness episodes. The convulsions lasted 4 seconds and occurred following the return of CNS blood flow. The convulsions occurred after 8 seconds of unconsciousness and ended coincident with the return of consciousness. They occurred when the CNS insult was of greater magnitude. Memorable dreams occurred and were considered to occur during the terminal portion of the convulsion period. The dreams occurred with exposures having longer unconsciousness.

Acceleration-induced loss of consciousness. A review of 500 episodes (http://archneur.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/7/764)

NDEs (as objectively real events) do not have any scientific support except in Sabom's "Recollections of Death". In reference to this report, the esteemed skeptic Susan Blackmore said "We can only await further research" (Fall 1991 p.43 Skeptical Enquirer). That research has not been forth-coming.

what is it you know that others dont? bring me up to speed;)

*A standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum.

*Auditory evoked potentials, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem

*Documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

dr sabom and pam reynolds (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html)

seriously, how can i dispute her story? can a dead person be called insane?

dead but awake (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=185481#post185481)

Could the EEG frequencies observed be too low?
These fast oscillations, beating at 50-200 Hz (roughly the same as the lowest two octaves on a piano) also seem to be intimately involved in the laying down of memories, Traub and his colleague found. When the oscillations occur in synchrony over a wide area, lasting changes in the electrical response of groups of neurons occurs, making it easier for such neurons to oscillate in synchrony in the future. It appears that the more the neurons oscillate in certain patterns, the easier it is for such patterns to recur, or to be recalled from memory.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-4.2/lerner.html

Then:
The frequencies of the EEG waves run from 0.5 per second to hundreds/second. The machines however usually show frequencies of up to 26/second.

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Clinical_Neurosciences/louis/eegcrs.html

However, these higher frequencies disappear under anesthesia. Also, although it seems to me that we could have unsynchronized electrical [brain] activity which might not register on an EEG, this seems to contradict the notion that “neurons oscillate in complex patterns” in order to enable memory formation.

Also, here is a brief article on Quantum Mechanics and consciousness that I happened upon just FYI:

Could quantum information be the key to understanding
consciousness? Will the study of consciousness enable
quantum information technology? The nature of
consciousness and its place in the universe remain
mysterious. Classical models view consciousness as
computation among the brain's neurons but fail to
address its enigmatic features. At the same time quantum processes (superposition of states, nonlocality, entanglement,) also remain mysterious, yet are being harnessed in revolutionary information technologies (quantum computation, quantum cryptography and quantum teleportation.)

See the article:1. PhysicsWeb - Events - Quantum Mind 2003: Consciousness, Quantum Physics and the Brain
at http://physicsweb.org/events/2509.

Really the question of birth and death is not a "science" question, in that you will never unravel the mystery with a dualistically rational consideration of the topic. Essentially, that's the question you are asking.

To answer the questions, "what are you?", and "why are you?" I'd recommend going out in the desert for a week, strip your conciousness clear of day-to-day crap, and then consume a strong dose of pure LSD-25.

You'll never answer your basic question by studying the reports of "near-death" experiences. The only death that truly counts is the death of your ego - which must occur before you will ever beging to have a clue about the death of your body.

Just my opinion, of course.