I just found the web forum Jeff Weise, the kid that shot up that one school, posted on.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Dlr86foA5hcJ:www.nazi.org/current/forum/YaBB.cgi%3Fboard%3Dnativeamerican%3Baction%3Dprint %3Bnum%3D1079672948+%22jeff+weise%22&hl=en
I read this through, and in an objective frame of mind I'll try to ask some questions:

-Why would a well-thought-out kid with a profound and seemingly developed political view do an act as rash as a random shooting of his school?

-What is the beef with Jews? Maybe I'm buying into the "jewish propaganda" this site mentions, but for shit sake, what the hell did the jews do that was so bad?

-What is the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism? This site mentioned that the difference is too complicated to be taught, so they use simple worlds like "hate, bigot," etc.

I'm only in high school, so I'm no expert on politics, even though I did Model United Nations. I find common sence finds the solutions to most problems, and i just don't see it in Nazi ideas. Any thoughts on the matter?

-Why would a well-thought-out kid with a profound and seemingly developed political view do an act as rash as a random shooting of his school?

I dont think I, or for that matter anyone on these forums is capable of answering that question accurately. I can guess depression (he did kill himself at the end as well) but why he would take others with him, i dont know.


-What is the beef with Jews? Maybe I'm buying into the "jewish propaganda" this site mentions, but for shit sake, what the hell did the jews do that was so bad?

I assume you are familiar with the Arab-Israeli conflict? Almost all modern anti-semitism stems from this conflict. I wont bother explaining it here, you can google it. You must also be very careful while living in America, because even on TV i saw extreme pro-jewish propaganda. Read up on the conflict on the internet, its your best bet for accuracy.

The Jews never did anything per se, but if you are referring to pre-WWII germany, well they were amongst the richest and most well off citizens, while a large portion of the population was extremely poor. This contributed to why they were disliked, especially by Hitler.

-What is the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism? This site mentioned that the difference is too complicated to be taught, so they use simple worlds like "hate, bigot," etc.

If you look each up in the dictionary, there is no difference. Each person may have personal definitions of the terms, but strictly speaking there is no difference. I think "patriotism" was a term created because "nationalism" sounded to.....well....nationalistic. The site probably has a more intricate personal meaning for the word, which is obvious, because they are nationalists, so they will define it in any way that suits their motives...

I just found the web forum Jeff Weise, the kid that shot up that one school, posted on.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Dlr86foA5hcJ:www.nazi.org/current/forum/YaBB.cgi%3Fboard%3Dnativeamerican%3Baction%3Dprint %3Bnum%3D1079672948+%22jeff+weise%22&hl=en

d))can you spell it out for me? i would like to foreward it to another forum.

I read this through, and in an objective frame of mind I'll try to ask some questions:

d))It is really chilling to read, knowing what he is going to do in the future, and how he is alamost evangelical and independent with such vile ideas

-Why would a well-thought-out kid with a profound and seemingly developed political view do an act as rash as a random shooting of his school?

d))))Well, he is NOT well-thought out at all, and has no developed politcal view. Thus someone like that is sowing the seeds of destruction. he is isolating himself from most around him, and involved with the evils of nazism.

-What is the beef with Jews? Maybe I'm buying into the "jewish propaganda" this site mentions, but for shit sake, what the hell did the jews do that was so bad?

d)))shit...this shit goes WAY back. You have to understand that it really is coming from christianity. it was the christians that saw the Jews as heretics, and then went onto persecute them.
in their myth they blame the Jews for crucifying their mythical character, Jesus. So -for the christians- the Jews become the scapegoat (do some research about the history of the scapegoat, and also add this name with any search, Dan Russell. it is very interesting!), along with 'witches', 'Gays', pagans, etc etc etc.
This need for A scapegoat is ancient, and it indicates an individual projecting out what he or she fears about her himself...!

-What is the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism? This site mentioned that the difference is too complicated to be taught, so they use simple worlds like "hate, bigot," etc.

d)))No difference. they both hold the danger that, when you identify too much with A group, then others can become the scapegoat if you feel threatened. And from there all forms of cruelty and violence and genocide can proceed.

I'm only in high school, so I'm no expert on politics, even though I did Model United Nations. I find common sence finds the solutions to most problems, and i just don't see it in Nazi ideas. Any thoughts on the matter?

I am delighted you have understood that insight. that young lad shold be a startling shocking sign for all young men NOt to get involved in any forms of isolating belief systems which scapegoat other members of our species, or OTHEr species. we are ALL of us humans, with feelings, creativity, and needs. we ALL have to get on.
I love diversity. i love peoples mixing. all our great creative ideas have come from peoples merging. and with that comes sex and diversity. i am 'mixed race'. i am a spit in the eye to the likes of that boy--who is now dead, taking others with him.
See his life. see how tragic such ideas as his are--literally. and speak out against those ideas. which you have by addressing with this thread.
which i thank you for.

-Why would a well-thought-out kid with a profound and seemingly developed political view do an act as rash as a random shooting of his school?

If I say, "a lack of any other means of expression," I'm still leaving it at Sebastian's note. I'm not sure that can be answered.

However, there is that chilling note from a year ago (March 25, exactly a year): "Once I commit myself to something, I stay until the end ..."

Even I have had moments when I'm tempted to make someone's fear come true. Or, as Brian Griffin once put it, "You want a crazy dog? Okay, you've got a crazy dog!"

So whatever the final catalyst was, it may be that he decided to make his school officials' fears come true. It's a perverse logic, but not especially uncommon. What seems uncommon, of course, is the severity of the result.

-What is the beef with Jews? Maybe I'm buying into the "jewish propaganda" this site mentions, but for shit sake, what the hell did the jews do that was so bad?

They're blamed for killing Christ and also wrecking the world economy.

-What is the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism? This site mentioned that the difference is too complicated to be taught, so they use simple worlds like "hate, bigot," etc.

To them, the difference is too complicated to be taught. I suspect it would be more accurate to say the difference is too difficult for them to explain.

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalism) offers three definitions for "nationalism" from American Heritage and one from WordNet. Some of the definitions overlap with patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism), variations on "love and devotion to one's country".

The nationalism of Nazis, though, seems to reflect, "Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination." The general idea is that without the nation the Nazis want, they're under foreign domination. When they transform the United States into the nation they want it to be, their nationalism will become patriotism.

Or something like that.

I did come across the National Socialist Movement's "25 Points of American National Socialism (http://www.nsm88.com/25points/25pointsengl.html)", in case anyone wonders what that nation would look like.

Interestingly, the same website notes, in criticizing Farleigh-Dickinson University, "... we understand that the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of freedom of speech is more than simply legal scribbling - the document is critical to our freedom itself." (Currently on the front page (http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html), I haven't found a permanent link yet.)

Given their 25 points, I find it hilarious that they even mention "freedom".

There's also, of course, Wikipdeia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism), which asserts a slightly different definition:

Nationalism is an ideology that creates and sustains a nation as a concept of a common identity for groups of humans. According to the theory of nationalism, the preservation of identity features, the independence in all subjects, the wellbeing, and the glory of one's own nation are fundamental values.

That article might be too complicated for the Nazis to understand.

I find common sence finds the solutions to most problems, and i just don't see it in Nazi ideas. Any thoughts on the matter?
Who gives a fuck about Nazism ? Nazism is an ancient 20th century ideology led by a man who is now dead 60 years who led this ancient regime into a war that they lost . As for that weis shooters fascination with Nazism cast your mind back to the Columbine High School massacre and see that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were also fascinated by Nazism even launching the attack on April the 20th Hitlers birthday http://www.historychannel.com/speeches/archive/speech_448.html . Here is the funny thing Dylan Klebold was Jewish !http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/11140/edition_id/213/format/html/displaystory.html . Lets discuss that instead !

Part of Klebold's problems seems to have been that he wasn't sure whether he was jewish or not- a damnfool thing to get worked up about, especially so worked up that you kill afew people.

Who gives a fuck about Nazism ?
There are many neo-nazis in Russia and Germany.

Brian have you considered investing in a course on basic logic?Who gives a fuck about Nazism cast your mind back to the Columbine High School massacre and see that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were also fascinated by Nazism
Do you see the contradiction you have created? Or will you attempt to wriggle of the hook with a specious argument?

There are many neo-nazis in Russia and Germany.

Dont forget latvia mr non bias.

the centre for spawning nazism however is estonia.

erm.. last I heard in Latvia no gangs of neonazis beat up foreign students in their campus house and then set fire to it => Russia

Neither ma I denying that there are neonazi gangs in russia , but what you stated dosnt excuse the fact that there are many neonazis across eastern europe, latvia included.

Well yes, nazis, communists, etc. What we need is purification. http://piparmetra.net/forums/images/smiles/diablos.gif

What is the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism?

Patriotism is love+loyalty to the fatherland. Nationalism is identification with one's nation and is usually practiced with more zeal [insert implications here]. Nationalism is a modern phenomenon. Well, once one becomes proud of his nation it's a small step to a wish to purify that nation.

What does the word "nazi" mean? Does "nazi" mean "nationalism" or something of the sort?

well.. that is a misused and misunderstood word, nazism stands for National Socialism and was the main ideology of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.

a wish to purify that nation.
What if I wish to purify the population of Earth by killing all christians, jews and muslins? :D

that would be nice a world populated by asians and atheists.

Brian have you considered investing in a course on basic logic?
Have you considered how much of a wanker you sound like ?
Do you see the contradiction you have created? Or will you attempt to wriggle of the hook with a specious argument?
What contradiction ? The only people interested in Nazism are people on the fringe . Or are you going to give me some argument Nazism is a serious ever present threat to society .

Have you considered how much of a wanker you sound like ?I know I could never compete with you in that regard. You can rest easy.

What contradiction ? The only people interested in Nazism are people on the fringe . Or are you going to give me some argument Nazism is a serious ever present threat to society .Any form of extremism, with a track record for violence, constitutes a potential threat to society and as such merits prudent attention. In your post you note the localised resurgence of interest in nazi ideals, yet declare we need take no interest in its roots. That is at best illogical, at worst just stupid.

What contradiction ? The only people interested in Nazism are people on the fringe . Or are you going to give me some argument Nazism is a serious ever present threat to society .

Perhaps if that fringe didn't produce violence regularly enough for people to notice, society would leave it at the fringe.

Who gives a fuck? Well, obviously not the people who are dead because of someone involved in Nazi activity. And it's good to know those who were wounded, or who lost a relative or friend, or have been targeted for assassination need not be concerned.

Shall we hold a press conference? Or simply email everybody in the country and tell them to chill out?

If Harris and Klebold, or now young Weise, had fallen in with Wiccans or hippies, would they still have gone on the rampages? Maybe so. But as a recent arrest in Chicago illustrates, flower power is a place where some violent people go when their violence is already past. Norman Porter is a twice-convicted murderer who just finished a 20 year run as a free man in which he does not appear to have continued his violence. He's said to be a poet and anti-war protester, and an upstanding and devoted member of his local Unitarian church.

In other words, are Harris, Klebold, Weise, &c. natural-born killers, or did they develop that philosophy because of other influences they allowed in their lives? Is one of those influences Nazi philosophy?

If my daughter were to adopt a Nazi fetish, should I be concerned? What if she becomes sympathetic to extremist Islamic assertions? Both are identity-driven, and both tend to spill into violence. Or maybe I could get away with not noticing if she acquires a weapon or starts building pipe bombs in the basement.

Right now we have a reason to at least give a fuck. Knee-jerk responses, of course, won't be helpful, but yes, we do have a reason to at least give a flying fuck.

Giving a fuck does not equal advocacy or acceptance.

In other words, are Harris, Klebold, Weise, &c. natural-born killers, or did they develop that philosophy because of other influences they allowed in their lives? Is one of those influences Nazi philosophy?
A simple straightforward personality profile would tell you these individuals were outsiders who found it hard to fit in . Individuals such as these personalities retreat into their own worlds . The result of this social ostracism would of been the catalyst for their personal rampages not a fascination with Naizism , goth rock or the Black Arts .

And for all the Christians tried to tie modern Wicca to devil worship, you never heard much about the outsiders who found it hard to fit in who found friends in a coven doing these things. Whether it's a statistical quirk, or the result of the Wiccan Rede itself combined with the Threefold Law as explained by Starhawk in The Spiral Dance, which every person I've ever known who was remotely associated with the Craft has owned a copy of, is its own question. However, if we look, there is an answer to be found, I'm sure. And likewise with Nazism and other similarly divisive sociopolitical assertions. None of these teenage killers, as far as I know, have had any contact with Matt Hale's group, but Hale does find sympathy at Nazi.org (http://www.nazi.org/) in the form of a banner link under "Action" (Free Matt Hale) which leads to a website advocating the imprisoned supremacist.

Now here's the thing: more than whether or not Hale is guilty of anything he's convicted of (I honestly haven't bothered to look it up), there was an occasion when a white supremacist went on a shooting rampage that he essentially felt sorry for the fact that the shooter was dead. Called him something like a "noble warrior" (I'm still searching for the quote).

Among supremacists, Nazis, separatists, and others often categorized together by the public at large, there is sympathy for violence. The racial holy war, for instance, and criticism of Tim McVeigh ("He could have picked a better target"), are just a couple examples of the problem people might see when they look into it. As to the distinctions between those groups, we see in the topic post example the sentiment that it is too complicated for others to understand. Perhaps that is because it is too hard for those people to express.

Even I thought the crusade against heavy metal was bullshit. It wasn't just the music: a good number of teenyboppers were more violent around school. I've heard bad, fake eulogies before. I'm aware that we're supposed to ignore a dysfunctional family situation and blame it on the music. But I'm also aware that despite all that, there was still violence and rampant irresponsibility among my fellow metalheads.

The thing is that the reasons for looking in the first place are there. If people don't go off all knee-jerk, and actually do some responsible research, they will either conclude that there is nothing to worry about or that there is a cause for concern.

Nazis won't help their cause by refusing to make the distinctions clear. There are enough philosophical questions to blur the line, but just as an imam in the United States might hold in common with bin Laden that the U.S. should not have been in Saudi Arabia, that fact in and of itself would not be sufficient cause to suspect the same dedication to violence.

If Nazis would claim a similar distinction, the circumstances suggest it might do them well to make those points clear. In witchcraft, there is not the same sympathy for violence. Same thing for the freakin' Boy Scouts or 4-H. But people don't see Nazis the same way, and I'm not sure they're misguided in that concern.

Perhaps if it weren't for the larger notion that such division leads to strife, it would be easier to accept the more benign case for Nazis.

And for all the Christians tried to tie modern Wicca to devil worship, you never heard much about the outsiders who found it hard to fit in who found friends in a coven doing these things. Whether it's a statistical quirk, or the result of the Wiccan Rede itself combined with the Threefold Law as explained by Starhawk in The Spiral Dance, which every person I've ever known who was remotely associated with the Craft has owned a copy of, is its own question. However, if we look, there is an answer to be found, I'm sure.
Wicca craft another outdated ancient practice that weak minded people hold to as a psychological crutch . Wicca craft was practiced by a backward ignorant superstitious Irish peasantry . For those iron age Irish peasants Wicca was relavent , Wicca was of their time I find it amazing modern age people believe in this abject nonsense .
And likewise with Nazism and other similarly divisive sociopolitical assertions. None of these teenage killers, as far as I know, have had any contact with Matt Hale's group, but Hale does find sympathy at Nazi.org (http://www.nazi.org/) in the form of a banner link under "Action" (Free Matt Hale) which leads to a website advocating the imprisoned supremacist.
Again fuck the Nazi connection the media is attempting to dilute the real reason for these rampages . Simply put society attempts to put us all in one group to act and think as one . Advertising/Media instructs us to follow and purchase the latest fashion/music/consumer trends and to think alike this starts at school . Anybody outside this manufactured realm is considered an outsider and ostracized as being 'weird' or 'creepy' . Soceity must teach us all to be individuals not sheeple until that happens we can expect a lot more rampages .

Nationalism is NOT a modern phenomenon. You'll find plenty of references to cultural/ethnic pride among the ancient Greeks, at least up until the decline started.

I recommend people read Jeff Weise's site (nazi.org) because it makes all of this clear. If you can't understand it, then the problem's probably you, not them!

The real reason for these rampages: we're in the twilight days of Western civilization...

What did the Jews do? Nothing, they were a tool for Hitler. Economy sucks? Gotta be the Jews. We lost WWI, Gotta be the Jews. Etc..etc..etc.. its easier to feel good about yourself when you have someone to blame for your problems.

Wicca craft another outdated ancient practice
Speaks the man who doesn't know that wicca was invented in 1950s

Speaks the man who doesn't know that wicca was invented in 1950s
Itys based on ancient Irish witchcraft and pagan beliefs .
In the following articles you'll find information about Irish and Celtic law, Celtic society and religion, the symbolism of certain animals in Celtic culture, the history and other topics on Wicca, studies and opinions on Celtic calendars and modern neo-pagan practices, suggestions for studies and basic skills, and more.
http://www.draeconin.com/database/articles.htm

It can be based on whatever you want, but it's not an ancient practice.
First, it seems that it's a mix of what little has survived of celtic tradition with later irish inputs.
Second, there are no one pagans beliefs, each culture had it different.
p.s. Speaking of celtic tradition. Wicca attaches various meanings to celtic knots, but there is no knowledge that has survived of the original meaning of them. All the meanings you ever hear are interpretations of 20th century. Wicca is just a pop culture product created in 1950s to suit people who have no pre-christian cultural heritage left. Greatly improved (as in content) by the later 1960s-> hippy movement.
I could continue on the subject, but it would be a terrible offtopic, this is a nazi thread.

Again fuck the Nazi connection the media is attempting to dilute the real reason for these rampages

Actually, I say fuck the Nazis.

Simply put society attempts to put us all in one group to act and think as one

While the problem does exist, it is an independent issue.

As you seem to miss the point on two illustrative counts, I will have to reconsider its expression.

I mean, it's probably useless to simply reiterate myself--


Among supremacists, Nazis, separatists, and others often categorized together by the public at large, there is sympathy for violence. The racial holy war, for instance, and criticism of Tim McVeigh ("He could have picked a better target"), are just a couple examples of the problem people might see when they look into it. As to the distinctions between those groups, we see in the topic post example the sentiment that it is too complicated for others to understand. Perhaps that is because it is too hard for those people to express.

Even I thought the crusade against heavy metal was bullshit. It wasn't just the music: a good number of teenyboppers were more violent around school. I've heard bad, fake eulogies before. I'm aware that we're supposed to ignore a dysfunctional family situation and blame it on the music. But I'm also aware that despite all that, there was still violence and rampant irresponsibility among my fellow metalheads.

The thing is that the reasons for looking in the first place are there. If people don't go off all knee-jerk, and actually do some responsible research, they will either conclude that there is nothing to worry about or that there is a cause for concern.

Nazis won't help their cause by refusing to make the distinctions clear. There are enough philosophical questions to blur the line, but just as an imam in the United States might hold in common with bin Laden that the U.S. should not have been in Saudi Arabia, that fact in and of itself would not be sufficient cause to suspect the same dedication to violence.

If Nazis would claim a similar distinction, the circumstances suggest it might do them well to make those points clear. In witchcraft, there is not the same sympathy for violence. Same thing for the freakin' Boy Scouts or 4-H. But people don't see Nazis the same way, and I'm not sure they're misguided in that concern.

Perhaps if it weren't for the larger notion that such division leads to strife, it would be easier to accept the more benign case for Nazis.

--so I'll have to think about ways to make it easier for you to see.

The problem is communication. Nobody ever won justice, as far as I can tell, by refusing to speak their case.


Advertising/Media instructs us to follow and purchase the latest fashion/music/consumer trends and to think alike this starts at school . Anybody outside this manufactured realm is considered an outsider and ostracized as being 'weird' or 'creepy' .

Would you do those marginalized labels the further injustice of lumping them together as one amorphous unit to be defined at the critic's will? Is diversity not part of the point?

Soceity must teach us all to be individuals not sheeple until that happens we can expect a lot more rampages .

Society must first come to understand the relationship between the institution of society and the individuals that compose it. Look at what individualism results in politically: willful and courteous blindness bordering on the reckless, and an individuality that requires the conformity of individuals. Neither the average liberal nor conservative, for instance, operates in terms that show a working understanding of the relationship between individuals and the societies they form.

Additionally, the point seems paradoxical for its appearance with the "fuck the Nazi connection" idea. After all, the Nazis, given their druthers, would limit individuals, as well.

Maybe the inccident of Jeff Weise and shooting his schoolhad nothing to do with Nazism, patriotism or nationalism.

Maybe it was the incredible war machine of america and their right to bear arms. Never before in history have children taken up the weapons that were made righteous in law to have by their ancestors.

Im utterly disgusted at the USA for giving anyone the right to hold a weapon of war.

so I'll have to think about ways to make it easier for you to see
No you dont have to make it easier for me , I read your sypnosis and I can tell you it poses no answers or solutions and leads to no conclusions . read the link below
Relatives: Did meds play a role?
His grandmother, Shelda Lussier, 54, said he saw a mental health professional at Red Lake Hospital on Feb. 21, the same day his prescription was refilled for 60 milligrams a day of Prozac, which he had been taking since last summer, the Washington Post reported.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5312255.html
A 16-yr-old on 60 mg of prozac per day. 60 is considered the top end of the dosage range and is exceeded only on rare occasions . Society friid his brain which triggered this rampage .

I've known plenty of people who took Prozac. And yes, it hurt some of them. And no, none of them killed anyone else on their way out.

As with so many political positions, it must be one or the other when in fact it is neither or both.

When the mind goes snap!, it feeds off its most direct or familiar influences. Prozac does not raise murder or suicide from a void: it accentuates dangerously what's already there.

• • •

Watch anybody who is depressed: every once in a while, they blank out. Sometimes they shake, sometimes they mutter, sometimes they cuss. Depending on each person and the data set comprising their experiences and describing their internal processes, the actual content and reaction are different, but what happens is that some image, memory, or notion will hit them, and they will react irrationally. For some it is shame, for others, anger. Confusion, desperation, you name it. The irrational reaction is proportionately huge. A strange, out-of-place memory might make a normal mind pause and wonder. It can crush a depressed person.

Watch closely. You'll see them snap awake, try to shake it off, and then glance around furtively to see if anyone noticed or heard.

What I can't figure is why for everybody else the process is interdependent on the relationship between self and environment, but Nazis are apparently different from everybody else.

A depressed mind immersed in a culture of aggression and division is more likely to lash out against other people where others might simply take it out on themselves.

What I can't figure is why for everybody else the process is interdependent on the relationship between self and environment, but Nazis are apparently different from everybody else.
I believe this Nazi link is just bogus , it seems to be a convenient excuse to take the publics mind from investigating any further . Similar to crime they blame parents or school or peer pressure never address the social condition of poverty which is the real cause .
A depressed mind immersed in a culture of aggression and division is more likely to lash out against other people where others might simply take it out on themselves.
Precisely and if this young man had of been in a hospital receiving proper psychiatric attention and care he could of been cured and others would still be alive .

-Why would a well-thought-out kid with a profound and seemingly developed political view do an act as rash as a random shooting of his school? Do you happen to know if the child was on Prozac (or like medicine) for a prolonged period of time? I believe a number of the children that have done the previous school shooting were on a long term Prozac treatment and then immediately stopped taking (some parents get weirded out by their zombie kids) it a week or so before going on a rampage.

So one answer could be a hyper yet intelligent child is put on a drug to calm him down, which it does, and then later taken off it (after his body’s chemistry has adjusted to it over the years) and he/she goes over the edge. Poof instant killer.

Parents who give their kids prozac (or equal) are just shitty parents who are too weak to bring up their own kids.

i think that any National Socialist or racist group should be banned, and all known members arrested or executed. this kind of racist ideology that breeds violent fringe maniacs should never, not once, be tolerated, and should be illegal.
but, alas, democracy would have a different view on this, just look back at the skoke case, where the american nazi party was defended by the constitutional edict of free speech/expression...

i think that any National Socialist or racist group should be banned, and all known members arrested or executed.
Then lets' be fair. Communists must go too.

but communism isn't racist. extreme leftist, yes; but racist, no.
nazi-ism is racist, and should be banned here in the US. sadly, the nazis have interpereted the constitution for thier own means.

oh, but communists killed more national minorities than nazis ever did, just based because of their origin. speaking about the USSR
that's why communist parties have been outlawed here in Latvia

Do you happen to know if the child was on Prozac (or like medicine) for a prolonged period of time? I believe a number of the children that have done the previous school shooting were on a long term Prozac treatment and then immediately stopped taking (some parents get weirded out by their zombie kids) it a week or so before going on a rampage.

So one answer could be a hyper yet intelligent child is put on a drug to calm him down, which it does, and then later taken off it (after his body’s chemistry has adjusted to it over the years) and he/she goes over the edge. Poof instant killer.

According to the newspapers, he had been on anti-depressants for around a year (more or less). He saw a mental health professional Feb. 21, the same day his prescription was refilled for 60 milligrams a day of Prozac, which he had been taking since last summer, the Washington Post reported.

One unnamed family member said this is when his dosage was increased.

ah, but that because the russians still had severe hatreds of ethnic minorities, sentiment left over from the antisemitic Tsar Nikolai II, to mention a few.
communism isn't inherently racist, it all depends on who is using comm. as a government. marx's original belief was great: the worker's paradise, humanity's utopia. but, it bogged down in politcal ambitions of stalin, lenin, and molotov. trotsky a little less so...

ah, but that because the russians still had severe hatreds of ethnic minorities
Please don't be mistaken. There is no "had". There maybe are more neo-nazis in Russia than in Germany now.

mostly because of germany's ruthless crackdown on neonazi political movements. neonazis are illegal there, from what i gather, and any nazi flag/swastika as well as the imperial flag(dunno why that one is) are illegal and showing them are punishable offenses(hefty-ass fine and jail time)
russia is just plain unstable. thier democracy is a bit unstable and corrupted, ther chechen rebels springing up everywhere, and fairly shattered economy. plus, the russian mafia has a lot of power there.,.

Please don't be mistaken. There is no "had". There maybe are more neo-nazis in Russia than in Germany now.

There are very few nazis in russia and germany, if you want nazis look in your own Latvia estonia and the rest of the pre-baltic. what other country (LATVIA) will let a parade of neo-nazis march through riga protesting against the judgments of the second world war, soon after they got in a bloody fight with people dressed like death camp detainees who were protesting against nazism.

all the countries who wanted to join and joined the germans in the war are now full of damn neo-nazis your own latvia included. germany got a lesson from what they did, iv been there I know what they now think of the war/ russia/ nazism, I also have many german friends who wouldnt say anything close to what you would hear from someone in the pre-baltic.

thier democracy is a bit unstable and corrupted, ther chechen rebels springing up everywhere, and fairly shattered economy. plus, the russian mafia has a lot of power there.,.

If you want to judge the democracy by its idea then there is nothing wrong with russia, as the majority rules... the problem is them inority happy with what the majority chooses.

as for chechens... their everywhere they dont just spring up, and it is the chechen mafia that now controls moscow and st-petersburg.

ah, the baltic countrie's are a bit unstable though, f***ed up economies, and the whole "eastern europe syndrome" thing, eh?
international law needs to be changed, outlawing naziism and any racist beliefs. these beliefs are a danger to society, and must be obliterated.

hmmm...
yeah, but it's still a mafia...criminals and et cetera, eh?

international law needs to be changed, outlawing naziism and any racist beliefs. these beliefs are a danger to society, and must be obliterated.

very dangerous ground.

oh, but communists killed more national minorities than nazis ever did, just based because of their origin. speaking about the USSR
that's why communist parties have been outlawed here in Latvia

AHAHAHA are you insane? russia is chalk full of minorities each family is a mixture of some kind. you want to tell me that communists killed 50 million people? what sort of facist shit do they teach you in latvia? the nazis slaughtered millions apon millions the reason communists are outlawed in latvia is because your all Facists. in russia every 5th person died during the war and there isnt a single family who wouldnt have lost someone, thats why unlike YOU they dont insult the dead. if it wasnt the win over facism then there would be no , jews/slaves/gipsys/blacks/gays in europe....

you surprise me, do you seriously know nothing that happened during world war 2? how about belo-rus where entire villages were burned to the ground and every civilian killed? no . Have you ever been to a museum dedicated to death camps?

If you want to hate russia, hate it but dont re-write history black on white.

aye.
again, im anti-racist and anti-nazi.
im also Tsarist, but reformist tsarist, wanting a more Peter-like Tsar, making Russia a great power again.

Then lets' be fair. Communists must go too.


Unlike nazism communism isnt based on usless slaughter of anyone who isnt like you.

tell me whats wrong with the idea of communism? seriously.
of course it cant satisfy everyone and its not a vilable system. but it had nothing to do with slaughter of people unlike Nazism which was founded on that idea.

very dangerous ground.

how so?

never thought I would have to de-brainwash nazism from some-ones brain but here we have living proof in the mind of a latvian teenager who seems to have learned history backwards.

Unlike nazism communism isnt based on usless slaughter of anyone who isnt like you.

tell me whats wrong with the idea of communism? seriously.
of course it cant satisfy everyone and its not a vilable system. but it had nothing to do with slaughter of people unlike Nazism which was founded on that idea.

quite right. that was my point a few posts up. communism has nothing to do with mindless murder.
and for you fascists, communism and fascism are not too far off. at least, real-world communism isnt.

how so?

because if you made a law against racism it would no longer be debated in public,which means that lots of people would secretly harbour these beliefs without having any counter agruements being put forward.humans are at a base level very tribalistic and i dont think this would disappear if you made a law against it.and also at what point something becomes racism isnt very clear(i know there is a dictionary definition), silly example but how wouild "the french are crap at football" be dealt with in law?

there is no real world communism as it has never existed.

although why people should want to be nazis is beyond me,whenever i hear of nazis in england and in europe i despair.dont they know what hitler had planned for their countries?

there is no real world communism as it has never existed.
by real world communism i mean communism that actually happened in the real world.
the other type, the kind that never happened, is theoretical communism, the worker's utopia.

because if you made a law against racism it would no longer be debated in public,which means that lots of people would secretly harbour these beliefs without having any counter agruements being put forward.humans are at a base level very tribalistic and i dont think this would disappear if you made a law against it.and also at what point something becomes racism isnt very clear(i know there is a dictionary definition), silly example but how wouild "the french are crap at football" be dealt with in law?
you have a point there...
and i don't like the french...
huh...
well, scrap it.

haha.,yeah,it would be nice if it was that simple though.

if who what when now who what...
how?
i meant scrap the whole "imprison all nazis and ban the NSDAP" thing. it'd be too hard, far too costly in the long run. think "drug war" and "war on terror" but with more civil-war-style...

i meant it would be nice if you could just outlaw racism and it would just go away.

oh. no, as you said, it's far too imposed into far too many to be extinct unless the UN sanctions some kind of miltary crackdown and wide-scale execution of nazis and racists. the potential for this happening are near nil.
not that solving murder with murder is a good ida. it msot certainly is not...

we need the genie of the lamp.must remember to buy aladdin on dvd,a truly excellent film.

Communism is racist - it's opposed to anyone have a racial identity.

Nazism is racist, there is nothing against racial minorities in the communist ideology.

1st I'm no teenager
secondly - yes - I'd like that many russian occupants would get the hell out of Baltics
let them rot in russia

-----
and yes, I've seen a good film about the Belorussian village burnings,
but I've also been in the occupation museum and have seen USSR death camps and gulag
and the lists of many many people (including many from my family) who were sent to siberia and died there.

USSR was no and in nothing better than Nazi germany. Same scum, same idiocy

As I said hate russians as much as you want but dont rearange history like your peers in tha baltics are doing. Im sorry abut the fact that you lost family this way, i really am, but many members of my family were killed by nazis.

1. Hatred can blow things out of proportion,

2. There were no soviet "death camps" I dont know what sort of history shifting they did in this "occupation museum" you visited. I know that lots of good people died in siberia (gulags) at that time but nothing compared to what the nazis have dont to the population of europe and denying that fact is sheer ignorance.

3. in addition to point 2 the numbers of dead in gulags was 600 000 over 30 years... compared to the 50 000 000 killed by the nazis in the space of 6 years.

4. in addition (a sad fact) latvia and lithuania have faught with russia for hundreds of years and this deep down hatred , the fact that during the second world war they were on separate sides only made this worse. (dont blaim communism for this.)


Here is a question for you: do you support nazism just because you hate russia? thats how it started in germany ; fear and hate of communism.

The fact of loosing my family to the nazis dosnt cause any hate towards germany in me, only towards nazism.

Never said I support nazism, I hate them as almost much as Russia, almost because they didn't slaughter and rob my family members.
Their methods are primitive and idiotic. As for Russia, it has been Russia messing with Latvia whether communist or not, so it has no difference for me, it's the same like nazi Germany in my eyes.

I can understand from your point of view why you hate russia, I was just pointing out that on a neutral viewpoint the crimes comited by the nazis were far worse than those of the soviet union ,aslong as you dont try to alter history your opinion is yours to keep.

For Latvia Russia has been a far worse nightmare than nazi Germany in crimes commited and lifes ruined. What's so better about Russia and what sets it apart from nazi Germany?

What an absolutely stupid question, thats totally irelevant. Do you realise that latvia is not the world? thats absolutely self centred thing to say. russia was fighting nazi germany in latvia and who-ever was supporting it at the time, those 20 million russians lives lost were lost in this process. after the war who built your factories? your roads? the russians did , did the germans re-build you after ww2? I doubt it.

In russia I had only respect for the pre-baltic no one would say somthing bad about them, lots of actors , scientists were known from the pre-baltic states. unfortunately not everyone in russia knew of the Rebintrhof-molotov pact and how the pre-baltic came under russian control. This is still no reason for saying somthing like that about russia.

what a fucking stupid thing to say.

What an absolutely stupid question, thats totally irelevant. Do you realise that latvia is not the world? thats absolutely self centred thing to say.
Same as I don't care about africans being holocausted I don't care about jews. Latvia is my world and Russia pretty much washed it in blood.
. russia was fighting nazi germany in latvia and who-ever was supporting it at the time
Molotov-Ribentrop pact, it devided Europe before the war. Russia Occupied Latvia before WW2 even started and before nazis came here. Then nazis kicked you out as a part from their movement towards Moscow and St Peterburg, then you came back.

Russia was left with repairing your infro-structure after. and russians back home didnt know of the Ribentrop-Molotov pact so hating them is pointless.

and what do you expect us to stop at latvias border what sort of logic is that? who lets the people responsable for 20 million of your own dead go? latvia got caught in the middle of a war caused by the germans those who supported them were faught against.

im really tired of arguing about this as i think its totall shit , including russia in the same sentence as the nazis is fucking idiotic. as I see your repeating what I said this argument is becoming dead lets leave it before both of us get angry.

if your argument is true then japan might aswell say that the americans were just as harmless to them as nazi germany... they only droped two atom bombs on them.

ok, whatever, I have no reasons to change my thoughs anyways.

avatar, as XJ9 from the cartoon network's timesquad said: "you're an idiot"

Russia was left with repairing your infro-structure after. and russians back home didnt know of the Ribentrop-Molotov pact so hating them is pointless.

Russia repaired anyone's infrastructure (infro-stucture? you fucking wasteoid) after WW2?

Bwah! The Soviets destroyed East Germany's (and my beloved half-homeland Prussia's) economy to the point where it suffers to this day.

but many members of my family were killed by nazis.

Good, that limits the number of people with your useless genes.

Yeah, these forums suck, I know.

ah, Preußen, may she rest in peace...
*hohenfreidberger marsch*

but, russia did help re-structure some infrastructure, but no one cares about the baltics, as it should be in the hands of the Prussian Empire...
but it isn't now...
Damn those Russkies...

Hapsburg:
Russia so badly mis-managed that re-structuring that Germany suffers to this day (in the form of high unemployment rates)
I do not wholly hate Russia, as I am half-Slavic on my mother's side, but the legacy of modern Russia is disaster.
Mostly because of Communists. I do hate Communists.

aye. communists are kinda whacked-out in the head: "revolution or die!"
If only the Tsars had been a lot more reactionary, and cracked down harshly on any and all communist activity. also, if he had avoided the one massacre at st..petersburg.
cant remember the name now...
anyway..
BOZHE TSARYA KHRANI!

Khrani Putina?

Russia repaired anyone's infrastructure (infro-stucture? you fucking wasteoid) after WW2?

Bwah! The Soviets destroyed East Germany's (and my beloved half-homeland Prussia's) economy to the point where it suffers to this day.



Good, that limits the number of people with your useless genes.

1. yes they did repair it, maybe if your mother is slavic you should thank russia for being alive seeing as your beloved nazis would have killed your slavic roots ending your life before it began. (had the suceeded)

2. Prussia dosnt exist anymore the reason it was destroyed is because your beloved third reich took it under control in 1932 , and lost the war after which the allies abolished prussia altogether in 1946. so blaming the russians is a waste of time. blame hitler for the state of eastern germany. If he didnt attack the rest of the world his homeland would get fucked as a consequence of defeat.


I have avoided being hostile to this moment with avatar but then you came along in all your foolishnes and decided you couldnt argue with facts so you called be a wasteoid because a spelling mistake was the only thing you could hold on to. oh and thanks for the personal remark about my dna... children.

Im sure that wrecking the economy of a pathetic north german state justifies killing 50 million... I can really see the logic.

Putin Khrani. Russia needs a strong hand.

"If only the Tsars had been a lot more reactionary, and cracked down harshly on any and all communist activity. also, if he had avoided the one massacre at st..petersburg.
cant remember the name now..."

They should not have entered into the fratricide of WW1. The Romanovs were a line of completely useless people, but incompetent government is the Russian tradition.

Odin'izm:
1. yes they did repair it,

Compare East and West Germany. To this day, the German areas that were under Russian control are economically depressed.

maybe if your mother is slavic you should thank russia for being alive seeing as your beloved nazis would have killed your slavic roots ending your life before it began. (had the suceeded)

Actually my family migrated to America before the start of WW2.

Nor do I have much sympathy for the Nazis, nor have I ever stated sympathy for them except on an ideological level. You should try to read what you criticise.

I am sure that if my grandmother had stayed in the Czech republic she'd have been raped by some filthy Russian communist swine, so perhaps then I could thank Russia.

2. Prussia dosnt exist anymore the reason it was destroyed is because your beloved third reich took it under control in 1932 , and lost the war after which the allies abolished prussia altogether in 1946. so blaming the russians is a waste of time.

I did not blame Russia for the end of Prussia, you illiterate Christian. Go back and read what I wrote.

Prussia lives on, in art and in blood. The redrawing of territories does not destroy a nation.

oh and thanks for the personal remark about my dna... children.

You chose to bring your personal history into this.

no putin!
God Save the Noble Tsar!!

and it was hitlers fault that east germany got f***ed, because as odin pointed out, he attacked Russia in the first place.
but i disagree that prussia is truely over. many that i know want the old prussian empire reinstated, and i know a few in germany who would rather have the Prussian monarchy than the unstable socialist-democratic government that is there now.

Putin Khrani. Russia needs a strong hand.

"If only the Tsars had been a lot more reactionary, and cracked down harshly on any and all communist activity. also, if he had avoided the one massacre at st..petersburg.
cant remember the name now..."

They should not have entered into the fratricide of WW1. The Romanovs were a line of completely useless people, but incompetent government is the Russian tradition.


Atleast russia still remains unlike your homeland of "prussia".. talk about usless...

Im sure that wrecking the economy of a pathetic north german state justifies killing 50 million... I can really see the logic.

From where the number 50 million? I'm curious. Have a link?

find an encyclopedia

Ava: about 55 million died in ww2, you stupid fuck. thats not counting the nazi's concentration camps.
its common knowledge, you fucking nazi!

Hapsburg stop insulting people, he needed a statistic. dont stoop to Xev's level.

sorry, lost my cool there for a moment.
i get pissed when people are ignorant of the death toll of ww2.
its common knowledge that is 55 million

To Hapsburg: Put your voice down, little, vulgar, uncultural slave.
And all the people in WW2 were killed by germans? Nutwit.
To Odin'Izm: So I did: 20,946,000 Victims:
Nazi Germany
1933 To 1945

It's the most intensively studied event of the 20th Century, so the margin of error is not quite a wide here as for most of the other wars and oppressions on this page. Most historians agree that the death toll was about 50 million (including wartime atrocities). If you don't believe me, here's just a sampling of the books I have on hand:

* Haywood: Atlas of World History (1997): 50M
* Keegan, J., The Second World War (1989): 50M
* Messenger, The Chronological Atlas of World War Two (1989): 50M
* The Times Concise Atlas of World History (1988): 50M
* J.M. Roberts, Twentieth Century (1999): >50M
* Urlanis: 50M
o Soldiers: 22.0M
o Civilians
+ In camps, from Fascist terror: 12.0M
+ From hostilites, blockade, epidemics, hunger: 14.5M
+ From bombing: 1.5M

and those 21 million were self induced avatar , who started ww2 ? the gays? the jews?

lets see....about 25 million russians died in ww2...thats nazi's fault
over 12 million died in death camps...thats nazi's fault
around a few million others were killed by nazi germany...
thats over half of the death toll...killled by the nazis.
the rest was mostly Japan and Russia.

And how many people killed or sent to die in slave labour camps by USSR?

p.s. Ok, we're talking about numbers here and you might be right that nazi Germany indeed did kill more people, but I don't think that it's any difference if you kill ten or hundred people, you're still a killer. Russia has no justification.

most sources have it between 50 and 55 million...
anything lower is probably white power propaganda and neonazi propaganda...

Of course Russia repaired stuff in the Baltics; Baltic countries were considered part of Russia. Watch how Russia is concerned with reparations of the infrastructure in the Baltics today; and in Ukraine, as well.

Ah the nationalistic feelings clashing! And zion wants a world united under one government. tsk-tsk.

To Odinizm:
Putin edet po strane,
na serebryannom kone
Putin vsem lyudyam pomozhet
Day yemu zdorovya, bozhe!
Vseh banditov perebyot
rabotyagam on nal'yot
vsyo postroit
i pochinit

vas' slihal vchera v vestyah
spit on budto na gvozdyah
yest lish' hleb
a pyot lish vodu
chtob nenavredit' narodu
=) (from DDT site)

who said they did have justification?
im just saying that you cant erase over 50 million deaths caused by the nazis, by saying that the russians were worse. they weren't. they were the same. fascism and communism are not too far from each other.
"it would take nudge to push you out of the light, and make you like me"
-Belloq, Raiders of the Lost Ark

Avatar, 600 000 died in gulags, over 40 years, people die in prisons it happens. of course its bad , but comparing it to anything close to a global genocide is idiotic.

cant erase over 50 million deaths caused by the nazis, by saying that the russians were worse. they weren't. they were the same.
Just what I said a couple of posts previously,
but I also said that Russia was far worse than nazi Germany when it concerns Latvia and that is true. Haven't heard of any mass deportations of Latvians by the nazi Germany.

wtf is this comparison between facism and communism? is it hard to understand that communism dosnt call for the anihilation of millions unlike facism? using the mistake some gorgian bastard made to paint an entire ideology is crazy.


nor were the russians and nazis the same , no where near the same.

that closer to half a million than one million.
what the russians did can never be justified, but the what the nazis did dwarfed it by such a large margin...

Avatar, 600 000 died in gulags, over 40 years, people die in prisons it happens. of course its bad , but comparing it to anything close to a global genocide is idiotic.
I said - my country is my world, I don't care for the rest.
p.s. I wonder.. for what legal breach they were sent there?

Just what I said a couple of posts previously,
but I also said that Russia was far worse than nazi Germany when it concerns Latvia and that is true. Haven't heard of any mass deportations of Latvians by the nazi Germany.

They got deported because they decided to support the nazis. had they decided to join the USSR the germans would do to them what they did to belarus are you starting to understand?

i wasnt referring to theoretical communism.
i meant what actually happened in the so-called "communist governments"
its all on big cycle of death.
communism = far-left gov owns everything etc.
nazism = far-right gov owns everything etc.
not too different

yes yes support the nazis :rolleyes: , just most of them were farmers who had more than two horses and didn't want to give them over to occpants.

Communism : everyone is equall
facism: only WE are equall lets kill everyone else.

their such opposites that they cant exist together.

Socialism doesn't speak of annihilation. Communism annihilated Russia's own citizens. Sure they were allowed to live under those conditions. Recall the censorship and what happened to whoever said a word against Russian government. There are numerous memoirs written. Solzhenyitsin describes a gulag that sounds very close to Nazi camps, only without mass killing. Yah, people die in prison, shit happens.

The nazis were the occupants you fool: http://www.balticsww.com/rumbula.htm

socialism is very different to communism...
comm. wants everyone to agree with the soviet gov. or die.
naziism wants everyone to agree with the nazi gov. or die.
not to far apart, eh?
they couldn't coexist because the two were on different sides of the policial scale: one far-right the other far-left. other than that: not too different.

Farmers!? http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bv/Qlatvia-nazis-cemetery.R8ew_DSR.html

Oh, the nazis were? Ussr had its' army in Latvia in 1939 already.
"Official" occupation was in 1940
And most top officers of the Latvian army were shot in a forest.
And I wonder what you call what was from 1945-1991?

a soviet government dosnt want the anihilation of racial minorities unlike the nazis can you understand that? I can see you cant.

damn democracy and its allowance of hate speech..

as I said avatar Im sure you guys would be happy under nazi rule...

A communist regime wants annihilation of all humans under it. Otherwise it will collapse.

We certainly weren't under the Russian rule.

Then again when a country ends up like this: http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/countries/latvia/latvia1.html

maybe they should have been left to be anihilated.

who cares if you latvians were happy or not? the russians occupied you, got over it. dman you baltic people just dont get!!
the nazis would have done worse to you had supported the USSR. since you supported the nazis, you got what you deserved!!

ooooh, a website that writes the USA as "United $tates" certailny is of a high quality and objective. Didn't our little commie vslayer address it the same way?

you latvians got what you deserved for supporting the nazis. simple as that.

no they didnt get what they deserved , everyone deserves to live , i just hate when people compare the ussr to the nazis, avatar if your people decided to help the ussr the nazis would have burned them into the ground. latvia was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time... I blame stalin.

ooooh, a website that writes the USA as "United $tates" certailny is of a high quality and objective. Didn't our little commie vslayer address it the same way?

I dont care what a wanabee Communist calls the states, I found the site while looking for more statistics.

You and vslayer should really get along your our "little Nazi" hes our "little Commie" you guys should make fan clubs.

A site with such a partial view is bound to have faulty statistics.

everyone deserves to live
On that note I step out of this discussion. Just stay out of Latvia. It's not your land and not your people, never was.

this thread is pointless , IT stops NOW ------------------------------------- Finished lets move on. Avatar keeps his point of view, Haps stays undecided , and I go sleep.

im not undecided. i know what i think: the latvians got what they deserved for supporting the nazis, a racist group.
now, it has ended.

The Latvians joined the Nazis in hope of being freed from USSR occupation; it says so in the link that Odin'izm so conveniently provided. That doesn't mean Latvians are racist.

Plexus its finished move on. this thread is closed.

Yeah go sleep and daydream about Putin.
I'm off for homework.

Thanks for that you Vulgar child. as I would say in real life before I took you to within an inch of your life "go fuck yourself" , did I insult you until now? no I didnt whats your problem.

-i didnt say that the latvians were racist. i said that the nazis were racist, and the latvians supported their occupation. the latv.'s dont understand how bad it could have been.

-'you talking to me, odin? or that ignorant nut?

the ignorant nut. and this thing is finished stop perpetuationg it.

i would stop if people would stop commenting at me.

Anyone relying on the MIM as a source should be culled.

let it go, man.
its over, the thread is dead.
let it die.