Nazism

I just found the web forum Jeff Weise, the kid that shot up that one school, posted on.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...ction=print;num=1079672948 "jeff weise"&hl=en
I read this through, and in an objective frame of mind I'll try to ask some questions:

-Why would a well-thought-out kid with a profound and seemingly developed political view do an act as rash as a random shooting of his school?

-What is the beef with Jews? Maybe I'm buying into the "jewish propaganda" this site mentions, but for shit sake, what the hell did the jews do that was so bad?

-What is the difference between Nationalism and Patriotism? This site mentioned that the difference is too complicated to be taught, so they use simple worlds like "hate, bigot," etc.

I'm only in high school, so I'm no expert on politics, even though I did Model United Nations. I find common sence finds the solutions to most problems, and i just don't see it in Nazi ideas. Any thoughts on the matter?

 

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I dont think I, or for that matter anyone on these forums is capable of answering that question accurately. I can guess depression (he did kill himself at the end as well) but why he would take others with him, i dont know.

I assume you are familiar with the Arab-Israeli conflict? Almost all modern anti-semitism stems from this conflict. I wont bother explaining it here, you can google it. You must also be very careful while living in America, because even on TV i saw extreme pro-jewish propaganda. Read up on the conflict on the internet, its your best bet for accuracy.

The Jews never did anything per se, but if you are referring to pre-WWII germany, well they were amongst the richest and most well off citizens, while a large portion of the population was extremely poor. This contributed to why they were disliked, especially by Hitler.

If you look each up in the dictionary, there is no difference. Each person may have personal definitions of the terms, but strictly speaking there is no difference. I think "patriotism" was a term created because "nationalism" sounded to.....well....nationalistic. The site probably has a more intricate personal meaning for the word, which is obvious, because they are nationalists, so they will define it in any way that suits their motives...

 

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I am delighted you have understood that insight. that young lad shold be a startling shocking sign for all young men NOt to get involved in any forms of isolating belief systems which scapegoat other members of our species, or OTHEr species. we are ALL of us humans, with feelings, creativity, and needs. we ALL have to get on.
I love diversity. i love peoples mixing. all our great creative ideas have come from peoples merging. and with that comes sex and diversity. i am 'mixed race'. i am a spit in the eye to the likes of that boy--who is now dead, taking others with him.
See his life. see how tragic such ideas as his are--literally. and speak out against those ideas. which you have by addressing with this thread.
which i thank you for.

 

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If I say, "a lack of any other means of expression," I'm still leaving it at Sebastian's note. I'm not sure that can be answered.

However, there is that chilling note from a year ago (March 25, exactly a year): "Once I commit myself to something, I stay until the end ..."

Even I have had moments when I'm tempted to make someone's fear come true. Or, as Brian Griffin once put it, "You want a crazy dog? Okay, you've got a crazy dog!"

So whatever the final catalyst was, it may be that he decided to make his school officials' fears come true. It's a perverse logic, but not especially uncommon. What seems uncommon, of course, is the severity of the result.

They're blamed for killing Christ and also wrecking the world economy.

To them, the difference is too complicated to be taught. I suspect it would be more accurate to say the difference is too difficult for them to explain.

Dictionary.com offers three definitions for "nationalism" from American Heritage and one from WordNet. Some of the definitions overlap with patriotism, variations on "love and devotion to one's country".

The nationalism of Nazis, though, seems to reflect, "Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination." The general idea is that without the nation the Nazis want, they're under foreign domination. When they transform the United States into the nation they want it to be, their nationalism will become patriotism.

Or something like that.

I did come across the National Socialist Movement's "25 Points of American National Socialism", in case anyone wonders what that nation would look like.

Interestingly, the same website notes, in criticizing Farleigh-Dickinson University, "... we understand that the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of freedom of speech is more than simply legal scribbling - the document is critical to our freedom itself." (Currently on the front page, I haven't found a permanent link yet.)

Given their 25 points, I find it hilarious that they even mention "freedom".

There's also, of course, Wikipdeia, which asserts a slightly different definition:

That article might be too complicated for the Nazis to understand.

 

Who gives a fuck about Nazism ? Nazism is an ancient 20th century ideology led by a man who is now dead 60 years who led this ancient regime into a war that they lost . As for that weis shooters fascination with Nazism cast your mind back to the Columbine High School massacre and see that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were also fascinated by Nazism even launching the attack on April the 20th Hitlers birthday http://www.historychannel.com/speeches/archive/speech_448.html . Here is the funny thing Dylan Klebold was Jewish !http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/11140/edition_id/213/format/html/displaystory.html . Lets discuss that instead !

 

Part of Klebold's problems seems to have been that he wasn't sure whether he was jewish or not- a damnfool thing to get worked up about, especially so worked up that you kill afew people.

 

There are many neo-nazis in Russia and Germany.

 

Brian have you considered investing in a course on basic logic?

Do you see the contradiction you have created? Or will you attempt to wriggle of the hook with a specious argument?

 

Dont forget latvia mr non bias.

the centre for spawning nazism however is estonia.

 

erm.. last I heard in Latvia no gangs of neonazis beat up foreign students in their campus house and then set fire to it => Russia

 

Neither ma I denying that there are neonazi gangs in russia , but what you stated dosnt excuse the fact that there are many neonazis across eastern europe, latvia included.

 

Well yes, nazis, communists, etc. What we need is purification.

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Patriotism is love+loyalty to the fatherland. Nationalism is identification with one's nation and is usually practiced with more zeal [insert implications here]. Nationalism is a modern phenomenon. Well, once one becomes proud of his nation it's a small step to a wish to purify that nation.

What does the word "nazi" mean? Does "nazi" mean "nationalism" or something of the sort?

 

well.. that is a misused and misunderstood word, nazism stands for National Socialism and was the main ideology of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.

What if I wish to purify the population of Earth by killing all christians, jews and muslins?

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that would be nice a world populated by asians and atheists.

 

Have you considered how much of a wanker you sound like ?

What contradiction ? The only people interested in Nazism are people on the fringe . Or are you going to give me some argument Nazism is a serious ever present threat to society .

 

I know I could never compete with you in that regard. You can rest easy.

Any form of extremism, with a track record for violence, constitutes a potential threat to society and as such merits prudent attention. In your post you note the localised resurgence of interest in nazi ideals, yet declare we need take no interest in its roots. That is at best illogical, at worst just stupid.

 

Perhaps if that fringe didn't produce violence regularly enough for people to notice, society would leave it at the fringe.

Who gives a fuck? Well, obviously not the people who are dead because of someone involved in Nazi activity. And it's good to know those who were wounded, or who lost a relative or friend, or have been targeted for assassination need not be concerned.

Shall we hold a press conference? Or simply email everybody in the country and tell them to chill out?

If Harris and Klebold, or now young Weise, had fallen in with Wiccans or hippies, would they still have gone on the rampages? Maybe so. But as a recent arrest in Chicago illustrates, flower power is a place where some violent people go when their violence is already past. Norman Porter is a twice-convicted murderer who just finished a 20 year run as a free man in which he does not appear to have continued his violence. He's said to be a poet and anti-war protester, and an upstanding and devoted member of his local Unitarian church.

In other words, are Harris, Klebold, Weise, &c. natural-born killers, or did they develop that philosophy because of other influences they allowed in their lives? Is one of those influences Nazi philosophy?

If my daughter were to adopt a Nazi fetish, should I be concerned? What if she becomes sympathetic to extremist Islamic assertions? Both are identity-driven, and both tend to spill into violence. Or maybe I could get away with not noticing if she acquires a weapon or starts building pipe bombs in the basement.

Right now we have a reason to at least give a fuck. Knee-jerk responses, of course, won't be helpful, but yes, we do have a reason to at least give a flying fuck.

Giving a fuck does not equal advocacy or acceptance.

 

A simple straightforward personality profile would tell you these individuals were outsiders who found it hard to fit in . Individuals such as these personalities retreat into their own worlds . The result of this social ostracism would of been the catalyst for their personal rampages not a fascination with Naizism , goth rock or the Black Arts .

 

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And for all the Christians tried to tie modern Wicca to devil worship, you never heard much about the outsiders who found it hard to fit in who found friends in a coven doing these things. Whether it's a statistical quirk, or the result of the Wiccan Rede itself combined with the Threefold Law as explained by Starhawk in The Spiral Dance, which every person I've ever known who was remotely associated with the Craft has owned a copy of, is its own question. However, if we look, there is an answer to be found, I'm sure. And likewise with Nazism and other similarly divisive sociopolitical assertions. None of these teenage killers, as far as I know, have had any contact with Matt Hale's group, but Hale does find sympathy at Nazi.org in the form of a banner link under "Action" (Free Matt Hale) which leads to a website advocating the imprisoned supremacist.

Now here's the thing: more than whether or not Hale is guilty of anything he's convicted of (I honestly haven't bothered to look it up), there was an occasion when a white supremacist went on a shooting rampage that he essentially felt sorry for the fact that the shooter was dead. Called him something like a "noble warrior" (I'm still searching for the quote).

Among supremacists, Nazis, separatists, and others often categorized together by the public at large, there is sympathy for violence. The racial holy war, for instance, and criticism of Tim McVeigh ("He could have picked a better target"), are just a couple examples of the problem people might see when they look into it. As to the distinctions between those groups, we see in the topic post example the sentiment that it is too complicated for others to understand. Perhaps that is because it is too hard for those people to express.

Even I thought the crusade against heavy metal was bullshit. It wasn't just the music: a good number of teenyboppers were more violent around school. I've heard bad, fake eulogies before. I'm aware that we're supposed to ignore a dysfunctional family situation and blame it on the music. But I'm also aware that despite all that, there was still violence and rampant irresponsibility among my fellow metalheads.

The thing is that the reasons for looking in the first place are there. If people don't go off all knee-jerk, and actually do some responsible research, they will either conclude that there is nothing to worry about or that there is a cause for concern.

Nazis won't help their cause by refusing to make the distinctions clear. There are enough philosophical questions to blur the line, but just as an imam in the United States might hold in common with bin Laden that the U.S. should not have been in Saudi Arabia, that fact in and of itself would not be sufficient cause to suspect the same dedication to violence.

If Nazis would claim a similar distinction, the circumstances suggest it might do them well to make those points clear. In witchcraft, there is not the same sympathy for violence. Same thing for the freakin' Boy Scouts or 4-H. But people don't see Nazis the same way, and I'm not sure they're misguided in that concern.

Perhaps if it weren't for the larger notion that such division leads to strife, it would be easier to accept the more benign case for Nazis.